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 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Faith makes you fear less and doubt less but it does not actually improve their combat ability

That's exactly what most Acts of Faith do, though. Dominions get to ignore cover, Celestians hit harder and regular Sisters get preferred enemy, and so on.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
It does not matter the slightest whether you are an atheist (Assuming atheistic humans exist in 40k!) or the most faithful Canoness, a sniper bullet to the face/dagger in the back/bolter shell to the... Well, anywhere really, will still kill you.

Nobody's claiming that their faith lets them survive things which should be impossible to do so, such as a bullet to the brain, but their belief does let them push their bodies to extremes, to the point where it's described as appearing miraculous to the unschooled.

On a somewhat related note, I do wonder if an atheist could achieve similar things similar to Act of Faith in 40K. I guess they could believe in a non-relgious cause so hard that they can do it, but then, if you're believing in something that hard, then I imagine that it would have parallels to religion anyway. Regardless, it's an interesting thought.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
That is what I am trying to say. The whole thing with them gaining some kind of divine protection (Beyond, perhaps, the psychic resistance that their faith offers)due to having faith is entirely illogical and contradictory.

Actually, I like to take the view that AoFs are not actually divine in nature, as per codex quotes about them only seeming to be miraculous. What's important is that their minds are so utterly set upon their cause, so other influences are blocked out, and the Sisters can push themselves to extreme feats.

And, you know, Chaos is a thing of the warp, and is therefore psychic in nature. So their Adamantium Will does also represent a resistance to Chaos corruption as well as psychic trickery. As do some of the Sisters in the Bloodtide, who can resist some of the most powerful Chaotic influence around, to the point where even the GK needed to get special protection for it, on top of their own indoctrination and holy wards.

Game mechanics. I can offer you a hundred example of utterly illogical game mechanics. We should not really bring them up in this way when discussing fluff. AoF might just be specialised 'pushes' in tactics that is unique to them. It does seem to intrude a bit on Ork territory to have your meltaguns ignore cover because you have faith in that they will, doesn't it?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Game mechanics. I can offer you a hundred example of utterly illogical game mechanics. We should not really bring them up in this way when discussing fluff.

Not entirely so, these sorts of things can happen IRL too. To steal from one of Lynata's posts on the subject, there is a case of a young woman lifting a 5600 pound jeep off of her father. Additonally, it's been found that belief can improve performance in sports. Belief alone can improve a person's perfromance, possibly to massive amounts in small bursts when in an extreme situation. It is, perhaps, not so illogical or unbelievable. Remember, belief is the key, and the Sisters are champions at that.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
It does seem to intrude a bit on Ork territory to have your meltaguns ignore cover because you have faith in that they will, doesn't it?

Or it can simply represent improved shooting out of extreme belief temporarily boosting performance. Again, going off of what the studio fluff implies, it seems to be the Sisters themselves rather than a psychic/supernatural force at work.

Still doesn't answer why only Sisters can do it. Why not Word Bearers? Why not Black Templars?

Psychological influence on one's body has a great deal of impact on one's physical well-being. Many soldiers have continued to carry on with egregious injuries while others have been killed by non life-threatening wounds. Bleeding out or getting any nerve cluster destroyed for example will of course will stop a person regardless of their determination.

However, to say that Sisters will NEVER turn is a bit farfetched. They are still individual humans after all with all those tremendous strengths and hidden weaknesses. Even the best operatives are trained to believe NO ONE is immune to all kinds of coercion, so resistance must be oblique and deceptive.

Why wouldn't her comrades rescue a Sister? As Veteran Sergeant said an esprit de corps within the Sisterhood is one of several reasons, but keep in mind part of their high morale is the fact that they know "nobody gets left behind." Obviously each Sister is very valuable (compared to any guardsman) but symbolically much more important to retrieve, even if she were to be outcast/executed for her failure after the fact. Would space marines leave a dreadnaught behind?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Still doesn't answer why only Sisters can do it. Why not Word Bearers? Why not Black Templars?

Good question.

In regards to those Astartes especially, I'd say that the Word Bearers are sort of a moot point, since their gods actually do grant them special powers, so they don't really need to harness the power of belief itself. Templars are a bit more tricky. Though they do exhibit something similar with their Emperor's Champion supposedly recieving a vision from the Emperor, and that's belief. But note how Acts of Faith are referred to as appearing miraculous to the "unschooled" in the WH codex. This could imply that Sisters get special training (intentionally or not entirely so) to harness the power of belief. It could be that the Templars don't train the same way as the Sisters, so don't/can't use the same techniques.

It's a combination of zeal and training - a "taxing learning process to clear their minds of all wordly considerations", as Codex fluff puts it. This is why Vandire wanted them in his service. He already had the armies of religiously fanatical Frateris Templar, yet apparently fanatism alone is insufficient, just like training without belief yields a different result. Another important difference might be that Battle Sisters are trained and indoctrinated from infancy, whereas every single Space Marine once had what passed for a normal childhood on their planet, with a (supposedly) loving family and parents as opposed to a class of orphans and the stern Drill-Abbots of the Schola Progenium. The Sororitas literally do not know another life, and are literally a blank slate upon which the Imperial Creed and military training are inscribed.
For the same reason, the Sisters are special amongst (most) other believers of the faith.

Another explanation might also be that whereas faith allows holy warriors like the Sororitas to get the most out of their bodies, the Space Marines are already so juiced up by default that there is less potential to climb even further. The fluff mentions how their bodies require a regular intake of drugs just to keep their metabolism from collapsing, so perhaps what you see is a body running on 110% efficiency all the time, and the difference you could force upon it with belief is considerably smaller than with unenhanced humans who still have reserves to tap.

That being said, in addition to the Emperor's Champion, the Black Templars also get the same +1 bonus to Deny the Witch rolls, do they not? Now you know why.

amanita wrote:However, to say that Sisters will NEVER turn is a bit farfetched. They are still individual humans after all with all those tremendous strengths and hidden weaknesses. Even the best operatives are trained to believe NO ONE is immune to all kinds of coercion, so resistance must be oblique and deceptive.

Personally, I like the fluff surrounding Miriael Sabathiel. By making her the one exception to the rule, the army's general style is preserved, and her character gets to be all the more special for being unique.
To quote from Abnett's short story: "What a trophy for Chaos. What a twisted champion."

Thinly veiled fetish thread?

Thinly veiled fetish thread!

 Chumbalaya wrote:
Thinly veiled fetish thread?

Thinly veiled fetish thread!

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Still doesn't answer why only Sisters can do it. Why not Word Bearers? Why not Black Templars?

Black Templars: because they don´t have a Codex for them. The vow "uphold the honour of the Emperor" was pretty close to what Sisters have.
Word Bearers: because they don´t have a Codex for them. Any acceptable way to field the Word Bearers in the game should include their faith.

Faith is a weapon in this setting. It may be because the gods are somehow real, including the Emperor. Or it may be because "magic" exists and a strong will directed by faith can warp reality.

I find it odd that some players think the Sisters are able to do what they do without a "magical" explanation. They are really close to a Space Marine, both in the game and in the background, yet they are human. And while lots of Marines fall to Chaos, they do not.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Game mechanics. I can offer you a hundred example of utterly illogical game mechanics. We should not really bring them up in this way when discussing fluff. AoF might just be specialised 'pushes' in tactics that is unique to them. It does seem to intrude a bit on Ork territory to have your meltaguns ignore cover because you have faith in that they will, doesn't it?

I never understood that: the game is intended to bring the setting to live. Sure, some novels are totally over the top, but if you discard some noise made of plot armour, the game is somehow accurate. Or, at least, that is my interpretation of the setting.

And yes, the Orks are another example of the "faith" power. Gods, faith, and magic do exist in the setting. And they are powerful for all races able to "suck" power from the Warp.

// On topic again: oh come on, three pages and still no pictures?

Because the Black Templars are all caught up in their Marineness - they can't put their faith 100% in the Emperor because they know they are superhuman fighting machines - their faith is split between their faith in the Emperor and their faith in themselves.

That said, I don't really approve of the 6++ SoF from a fluff point of view (although I value it greatly from a game mechanics angle). It doesn't make sense, simply put, in conjunction with their other Faith powers (adamantine will, the Acts of Faith) which aren't obviously mystical that they have a force field as well. I mean, yes, you could say it's a case of lucky dodging, pausing at just the right moment or whatever, but that would be better represented by giving them all Stealth (6+ cover save in the open, so same basic effect, but fluffier and slightly better in cover at the expense of not benefitting from medium-range night fighting).

Edit: and I just noticed that there's a whole extra page I hadn't read on this thread. Oops? ^^;

The Acts of Faith are all things that other races can do with skill. Rending? Raptor Chapter Tactics. Ignores Cover is slightly harder to justify, but the psi-power that grants it is called "PErfect Timing" - implying that it works by letting them shoot at just the right moment to avoid all the ducking and covering. So again, it's just luckier.

 da001 wrote:
Black Templars: because they don´t have a Codex for them.

But they did have a codex, and no AoFs.

 da001 wrote:
Word Bearers: because they don´t have a Codex for them. Any acceptable way to field the Word Bearers in the game should include their faith.

As I said, kinda a moot point, since the Word Bearers are explicitly working for entities that provide boons and powers to their followers. So the Word Bearers would have no need to tap into the power of belief itself, rather their belief would earn them power from the gods they worship.

 da001 wrote:
Faith is a weapon in this setting. It may be because the gods are somehow real, including the Emperor. Or it may be because "magic" exists and a strong will directed by faith can warp reality.

Magic existing does not mean that all incredible events must be caused by magic.

 da001 wrote:
I find it odd that some players think the Sisters are able to do what they do without a "magical" explanation.

Then I shall lay it out for you:

Just look to the codex quotes (emphasis mine):

"The Sisters of Battle are taught that faith is a shield stronger than any armour. Such is the power of their belief that the Emperor will protect them that the Adepta Sororitas can shrug off the most severe of wounds and resist the witchcraft of enemy sorcerers."

- 6E AS codex

For millennia, the Sisters have practiced their unique method of war, combining combat doctrine and prayer which enables them to accomplish feats upon the battlefield that appear miraculous to the unschooled

- 3E WH codex

"The Sisters of Battle can draw upon the wellspring of their faith to guide their actions. Absolute belief in the Imperial Creed allows Sisters of Battle to perform the seemingly impossible."

- 5E WD codex

Notice a theme? Lots of talking about the power of belief, and some quotes about what they do only seeming impossible.

Additionally, we have this from the GW game Inquisitor, for SoB characters:

Acts of Faith are not counted as psychic powers, and so may not be nullified.

So the studio fluff certainly seems to be saying that it's not magical in nature, and is just their belief. And, of course, we have the RL example of a woman supposedly lifting a 5600 pound truck off of her father, so it's not so far-fetched.

 da001 wrote:
They are really close to a Space Marine, both in the game and in the background, yet they are human. And while lots of Marines fall to Chaos, they do not.

Now, this is something that I don't understand. Why is Marines falling so special? Does just being a Marine make them automatically more resistant to Chaotic corruption? No. An angry marine (not those kind!) will be more easily tempted by Khorne, for example. The Astartes don't get special implants that help them resist Chaos, them being Marines is irrelevant. What matters is mindset and indoctrination, and the Sisters have this nailed down far more consistently and intensely than the Marines.

I'd even argue that being a Marine makes them (on average) more likely to fall - simply because the Chapters are really caught up in their relative independence and pride, because they are convinced they are as awesome as propaganda makes them to be and that this makes them "humans +1". Added to the fact that many Chapters recruit their Neophytes out of societies where "might makes right" is still a fashion ... was this not the same train of thought that led to the Horus Heresy in the first place? "We are better than them. -> We deserve better. -> We deserve to rule."
Case in point, the Marines Malevolent.
Obviously, this doesn't apply to every Chapter, and there are quite a lot of examples for the contrary, but I'm sure it could be said about a lot of them.

When it comes to comparing loyalty between Marines and Sisters, it seems that the Marines are first and foremost loyal to themselves, whereas for the Sisters it'd be unthinkable to put anything above the Emperor, and thus his Imperium. It is a matter of identity, and where the respective army sees itself.

Furyou Miko wrote:That said, I don't really approve of the 6++ SoF from a fluff point of view (although I value it greatly from a game mechanics angle). It doesn't make sense, simply put, in conjunction with their other Faith powers (adamantine will, the Acts of Faith) which aren't obviously mystical that they have a force field as well. I mean, yes, you could say it's a case of lucky dodging, pausing at just the right moment or whatever, but that would be better represented by giving them all Stealth (6+ cover save in the open, so same basic effect, but fluffier and slightly better in cover at the expense of not benefitting from medium-range night fighting).

It's the old Spirit of the Martyr AoF, just weaker and permanent. I've always interpreted it at the Sisters in question still being wounded - their zeal just allows them to keep on their toes until battle's end, ignoring the grievous wound in their flesh as they are so utterly focused in seeing the mission through. We do have real life examples for such things, too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogendra_Singh_Yadav

It also helps if you think that the TT is just an abstraction and not every hit must be a headshot. A hit by a krak rocket, for example, must not actually hit the soldier herself, but could detonate nearby in a manner that would still lethally wound her - but there's a 1-in-6 chance she just refuses to lay down and die. Not before the battle is over.

Only when every last heretic is killed will the Sisters allow themselves to relax, and many of them may well allow themselves to die at that very moment, a smile on their face as they expect divine rewards for their faith and martyrdom.

Grimdark.

da001 wrote:I never understood that: the game is intended to bring the setting to live. Sure, some novels are totally over the top, but if you discard some noise made of plot armour, the game is somehow accurate. Or, at least, that is my interpretation of the setting.

This I agree with. The way I see it, the fluff was written around the game, not the other way around. It's not two different worlds. And often enough, this is reflected in GW's writings - such as the protective value of Marine PA in Codex fluff incidentally corresponding to the saves in the TT, and the profile in GW's Inquisitor game.
It's just that not all fluff follows this example, specifically when it comes to certain novels - but this is not the fault of GW, but of whoever wrote the deviant interpretation, if it can be called a fault at all. The setting is intentionally open to such things, and "everything is true". People who voluntarily cherrypick the more awesome interpretation have no right to complain about GW's rules not reflecting them, though, when it is GW that was consistent all the time.

Troike wrote:What matters is mindset and indoctrination, and the Sisters have this nailed down far more consistently and intensely than the Marines.

Disagree. The Space Marine indoctrination process has been consistently described as ridiculously intensive, begins around the same age, and is far more "technological" than the Sisters.

Space Marines falling is a huge deal. Sometimes it seems like it happens fairly often because the fluff focuses on big events, not the hundreds of years of small ones, but renegade and traitor chapters (since the Heresy) have been few and far between (the largest conversion being Chapters foolishly sent into the Eye of Terror, by the Ecclesiarchy, ironically enough). The list of named Traitor warbands is only just over 100, and half of them are splinter groups of the traitor Legions.

So no, the Sisters don't have indoctrination nailed down far more intensely than the Marines. They just condition for different things.

It is, however, correct to say that the Sisters receive a lot more conditioning to be less independent and individualistic. But that's because a Space Marine is expected to be an unequaled tool for war. To be able to adapt and overcome impossible odds and find ways to win and carry on. The same isn't expected of Sisters of Battle. Because of this, the Space Marine does need to know that he's superior, and despite their intense mental and psychological conditioning, it leaves room for that seed.

But it's also fair to point out that Space Marines are also exposed to far higher degrees of risk than Sisters of Battle. It isn't like the Ecclesiarchy would send thirty convents into the Eye of Terror and expect to get any of them back. Despite the fact that it was ridiculous and foolish to expect to get the Space Marines back intact, it would be unthinkable to expect the same of regular human troops, no matter how fanatical. In the end, Sisters are basically just heavily armored Stormtroopers, not Space Marines -1. Which is not a knock on either Sisters or Stormtroopers. It's just the reality of the universe. Space Marines survive incredible wounds, hostile environments, have two hearts, spit acid, eat memories (okay, yeah that's a little silly, but the point is they're more human than human).

Notice a theme? Lots of talking about the power of belief, and some quotes about what they do only seeming impossible.

That's all just bad writing. 40K fluff is rife with it, so it's no surprise.

The powers are "magical", no matter what the codex says, because the Sisters literally achieve impossible results through the power of belief. So their beliefs are having a tangible effect on the universe.

The Acts of Faith are not like the Sacred Rites from 2E. The Sacred Rites were almost all psychological effects. The Sisters were so fanatical they got angry, or fearless, or more disciplined. The Acts of Faith make bullets and weapons do more damage, make the Sisters immune to damage, make them stronger, make them shoot more accurately, etc. That's not belief. That's magic, lol. And you can quote all the lines from the book you want. The lines will still be stupid.

Any way you cut it, the Sisters are magical. What makes them magical is up for debate. I mean, my explanation is the fluff is stupid. You might have a different one. But the fact that they are achieving impossible results with the Acts of Faith is indisputable.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Space Marine indoctrination process has been consistently described as ridiculously intensive, begins around the same age, and is far more "technological" than the Sisters.

And yet, despite the more technological aspect of it, it has been shown to be falliable. Meanwhile, the Sisters have yet to have any of their number fall to Chaos in the studio fluff. As it stands, the Sisters must be doing something better.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Space Marines falling is a huge deal.

I don't know, so many have them have fallen. Half of the original ones, in fact. Then we've got Huron Blackheart and his merry band of Corsiars, and those Eye of Terror Marines you mentioned. And numerous others besides that. I don't think that it is so big a deal when we've got so many traitor Marines running around.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
But that's because a Space Marine is expected to be an unequaled tool for war. To be able to adapt and overcome impossible odds and find ways to win and carry on. The same isn't expected of Sisters of Battle.

Actually, martial prowess and unshakable determination are very much expected of a Sister. No, they're not superhumans, but they're also epxected to be the best soldiers that they can be.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
But it's also fair to point out that Space Marines are also exposed to far higher degrees of risk than Sisters of Battle.

Nah. From the SoB codex, I can show you stories about Sisters raiding a Daemon world, fighting a Daemon Prince and some possessed Chaos Marines, and fighting off a Red Corsairs invasion. The newest codex even says that they have wiped out entire Space Marine Chapters for heresy. So no, they get just as brutal assignments as their Astartes comrades.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
In the end, Sisters are basically just heavily armored Stormtroopers

Not quite, their Acts of Faith put them above Stormtroopers.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
That's all just bad writing. 40K fluff is rife with it, so it's no surprise.

You can't just hand-wave something away because you have a negative opinion of it. Whether you like it or not, this is what the fluff says.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The powers are "magical", no matter what the codex says, because the Sisters literally achieve impossible results through the power of belief.

Earlier posts ITT addressed this.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Acts of Faith are all things that other races can do with skill. Rending? Raptor Chapter Tactics. Ignores Cover is slightly harder to justify, but the psi-power that grants it is called "PErfect Timing" - implying that it works by letting them shoot at just the right moment to avoid all the ducking and covering. So again, it's just luckier.

 Lynata wrote:
I've always interpreted it at the Sisters in question still being wounded - their zeal just allows them to keep on their toes until battle's end, ignoring the grievous wound in their flesh as they are so utterly focused in seeing the mission through. We do have real life examples for such things, too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogendra_Singh_Yadav

It also helps if you think that the TT is just an abstraction and not every hit must be a headshot. A hit by a krak rocket, for example, must not actually hit the soldier herself, but could detonate nearby in a manner that would still lethally wound her - but there's a 1-in-6 chance she just refuses to lay down and die. Not before the battle is over.

So no, they're not necessarily magical at all. And, even though you want to discount it, the studio fluff very much implies the same. In fact, the WD codex specifically refers to them as "seemingly impossible".

There will always be different interpretations, simply because people have different preferences and thus will arrive at conflicting opinions. /shrug

Given how malleable the fluff is, it's not exactly "wrong" to claim that SoB use magic (see the new Dark Heresy books), that Sisters are "just Storm Troopers" (see various Black Library novels), or that a Sister's indoctrination would begin as late as a Marine's (okay, this is a new one). The background is deliberately open to cherrypicking, and in some way we are all doing this somewhere. We have to, given how many contradictions there are between the various books.
So, it all depends on how someone wants to see the Sisters, and some people undoubtedly dislike GW studio sources putting them on the same pedestal as Marines. Or in some cases above, as far as loyalty and dedication to the IoM are concerned. To me, the elite and zealous aspect just makes them a more interesting army, and as much as some SoB fans don't like this comparison, personally I embrace the (oversimplified) notion of them being 40k's "female Space Marines" as put forth by some material making direct comparisons between these forces.

 Troike wrote:

I don't know, so many have them have fallen. Half of the original ones, in fact. Then we've got Huron Blackheart and his merry band of Corsiars, and those Eye of Terror Marines you mentioned. And numerous others besides that. I don't think that it is so big a deal when we've got so many traitor Marines running around.

That they make such a racket is easily explainable by not only the humongous amount of fluff that Astartes in general get but also by the fact that due to their superhumanity and everything, when a group of Astartes turn traitor, they are far less likely to simply be quickly crushed underfoot like many other traitor groups such as Traitor Guard tend to be.

You can throw the same argument for why Astartes get so much credit for defending the Imperium when there is less than one Marine for each world in it, compared to the untold billions of Guardsmen. Simply because

1. They have the power to make a significant impact beyond their numbers. Sisters can do that as well, to a lesser degree, with their miracles and whatnot, but Marines are no doubt better at it (Of course they are, if they had not been, why ever use them in the first place?) which makes them draw a lot of attention from readers/fluffwriters/and so on,

And 2. They get a massive amount of lore, so they are getting a very good representation fluffwise. This again draws attention to them.

 Lynata wrote:
Given how malleable the fluff is

I can accept the fluff being malleabe. But at the same time, I'm not so accepting of major deviations from the original material. And the SoB especially can suffer from this at times. For example, I'm unwilling to accept Blood of Asaheim's portrayal of a Canoness losing her faith during the course of doing what she has become a quite adept at (war), only to have it restored by a pagan that Sisters are known to distrust.

 Lynata wrote:
it's not exactly "wrong" to claim that SoB use magic (see the new Dark Heresy books)

But the codexes, as demonstrated, have been quite consistent about it. It is, at most, ambiguous. Only in third-party works do we see outright and actual magic. Meanwhile, the codexes are consistently implying that it's just the power of belief, with the latest codex pretty much saying it outright.

 Lynata wrote:
that Sisters are "just Storm Troopers" (see various Black Library novels),

But they are not "just Stormtroopers". Sisters have AoFs, Stormtroopers do not. And, of course, the SoB have better equipment. So portraying them as "just Stormtroopers" is, again, a pretty significant departure from their original depiction in the studio fluff.

I must say, I'm surprised to see you using BL for this. I thought you were generally pretty disapproving of their more deviant portrayals of the Sisters.

 Lynata wrote:
and as much as some SoB fans don't like this comparison, personally I embrace the (oversimplified) notion of them being 40k's "female Space Marines" as put forth by some material making direct comparisons between these forces.

Personally, I don't mind the comparison. But only when it's made in the loosest sense. They both use a lot of the same or similar equipment, and they're both elite infantry that also serve as potent symbols of the Imperium. Apart from that, they're pretty different.

@BrotherHaraldus
True, the Marines do get a lot of focus in the fluff. But the fluff overall has been pretty consistent in what it's been saying. Lots of Marines have fallen, no Sisters have yet been shown to. One could just as easily say that this is an intended portrayal rather than a result of the fluff focusing on Marines so much.

Don't get me wrong, here - I am disapproving of these deviant portrayals you are referring to. But at the same time I guess I have come to realise that we'll just have to accept their existence as a fact, and how they will shape or support other people's perception of the Sisterhood.
I think I'll never cease to express my disappointment when some writer "does it wrong", even though I know that, with the way how 40k fluff works, there is no "wrong" to begin with.

I suppose what I'm actually trying to say is that it's of no use debating this when the one you are talking to already has made up their mind. The most you can achieve is to stress the point that this isn't what the GW core studio has written, and that your interpretation of the Sororitas is just as correct as his.

(and yes, I realise this must sound funny, coming from me - given that usually I am the stubborn one when it comes to these topics ... perhaps it's because this time you've already jumped in to take my place )

 Troike wrote:

 da001 wrote:
Black Templars: because they don´t have a Codex for them.

But they did have a codex, and no AoFs.
(...)

I was referring to "to Uphold the Honour of the Emperor", a vow that grants you a 6++ inv save. It is described as being caused by their faith in the Emperor, with a similar wording to the Shield of Faith rule.

I must admit I cannot properly defend my interpretation, so I will not even try. I am mostly talking from a "logical" point of view. Chaos corrupts everything.... save the Sisters and the Grey Knights. There must be something special. And the Emperor is a god for them. And faith works fine for many factions. It makes sense.

 da001 wrote:
They are really close to a Space Marine, both in the game and in the background, yet they are human. And while lots of Marines fall to Chaos, they do not.

Now, this is something that I don't understand. Why is Marines falling so special? Does just being a Marine make them automatically more resistant to Chaotic corruption? No. An angry marine (not those kind!) will be more easily tempted by Khorne, for example. The Astartes don't get special implants that help them resist Chaos, them being Marines is irrelevant. What matters is mindset and indoctrination, and the Sisters have this nailed down far more consistently and intensely than the Marines.

Because while Space Marines sometimes fall to chaos (let´s say half of them) for mere humans there is no hope. It is assumed that if a human sees a Daemon, the best solution is killing him, because he is tainted. About 99% humans can be corrupted, 50% Astartes can be corrupted, and 0% Sisters. I can´t see "indoctrination and mindset" as a proper explanation. Some Imperial Guardsmen are heavily indoctrinated too.

Nothing the Sisters do make sense to me... unless the Emperor protects them . The Emperor is a god. He "owns" the Sisters, they are "marked" by him. Khorne trying to corrupt a Sister is like Khorne trying to corrupt a Noise Marine. The soul is already taken, the mind a fortress built by a similar creature.

Then again, this is just my take on the fluff. The way different authors see the Sisters at least open the possibility of some kind of spiritual power behind them: "nuns with guns" opposed to the Astartes "warrior monks". As you pointed out, some quotes seem to undermine this theory, but still think is correct.

 Lynata wrote:
I suppose what I'm actually trying to say is that it's of no use debating this when the one you are talking to already has made up their mind. The most you can achieve is to stress the point that this isn't what the GW core studio has written, and that your interpretation of the Sororitas is just as correct as his.

You're probably right, but I think there's some good to be done for championing the codex fluff anyway. You may not convince the person you're arguing with, but others might take your points onboard. Similarly, it helps to make this material known to the fans, which it isn't always. I just tend towards optimism on this sort of thing, you see.

 da001 wrote:
I was referring to "to Uphold the Honour of the Emperor", a vow that grants you a 6++ inv save. It is described as being caused by their faith in the Emperor, with a similar wording to the Shield of Faith rule.

I suppose that would, indeed, be a case of the Templars also harnessing the power of belief. Perhaps some Astartes can utilise such techniques, but not in the same way as the Sisters?

 da001 wrote:
Chaos corrupts everything.... save the Sisters and the Grey Knights. There must be something special.

And there is something special! For the Sisters, it's that singular, completely one-dimensional mindset. There is only service to the their God Emperor, this is ingrained into them so hard, that they could not concieve of doing anything else. It's similar to what we see with Adamantium Will, a strong enough willpower, a singular enough commitment to one's ideals can stave off the influence of the warp. The Chaos Gods are a warp influence, so them and their influence can be resisted in this way.

 da001 wrote:
Because while Space Marines sometimes fall to chaos (let´s say half of them) for mere humans there is no hope. It is assumed that if a human sees a Daemon, the best solution is killing him, because he is tainted.

Interestingly, and I'd quite like to make a thread about this sometime, the Sisters may be an exception to this rule. Firstly, there's a story in the AS codex where the Sisters raid a Daemon world for yet unspoiled relics, and leave just as the GKs arrive to bomb the Daemon world. We don't hear about the Sisters being killed or mind-wiped, the story just ends with the Sisters leaving the planet as the GK arrive. It seems that these Sisters get to leave the encounter alive. Next, the Battle-prayer of the Adepta Sororitas, from the 2E SoB codex, mentions Daemons outright. These two sources aren't exactly solid evidence, but they could imply that the Sisters are allowed to know about Daemons. And if there's one non-faction that could perhaps be allowed to live after seeing a Daemon, it's the SoB, what with their purity and distinct lack of falling to Chaos.

Now, the point I'm making here is that, even though they are indeed humans, they have a resistance to Chaotic influence. This shows that it is not physiology that matters, but mindset. You could have a human and an Astartes who were both utterly bloodthirsty and enjoyed bloodshed, and they'd probably fall to Khorne quite quickly if the right situation arose. However, if you had a human and an Astartes who had absolute belief in what they were doing, and had both been intensey indoctrinated to resist corruption, they would both likely be completely or at least mostly immune to Chaotic influence.

 da001 wrote:
Some Imperial Guardsmen are heavily indoctrinated too.

Though likely not to the same extent as the Sisters. We don't see any IG using AoFs, to my knowledge.

 da001 wrote:
Nothing the Sisters do make sense to me... unless the Emperor protects them. The Emperor is a god. He "owns" the Sisters, they are "marked" by him.

This sort of viewpoint is still very much applicable in one piece of SoB fluff. Just look to Celestine. Former SoB, gained magical powers, and now appears in times of need before vanishing again. If you want to view any SoB as being outright connected to Big E, then she's the one.

Of course, she too is open to interpretation, but Big E being involved is a perfectly valid viewpoint too.

If you guys remember a Sister of Battle was actually caught and tortured by dark eldar in Soulstorm (though it's probably not canon) more so than any other and I think let go as sort of an example for all the rest left over. I like to think that people don't consider soulstorm canon for different reasons. 100 Baneblades!!!

Acts of Faith could be described as the unit pushing itself to the limits and beyond for a short while, but they could also be seen as magic.

Like other special rules units might have, for example some IG orders (it's certainly "magic" to make lasguns fire faster, or suddenly make troops shoot better). Ork Waagh could be seen as magic too, and Ghazzy's special Waagh with invulnerable save certainly is. Dark Eldar Power from Pain? Magic. Necron RP? Magic (any advanced enough technology is after all magic to those who don't understand it). BA Sanguinary Priest FNP bubble is surely magic. SM Vanguard Veterans assaulting from Deep Strike - magic. Tyranids are magic from the Hive Mind down.

It mainly all comes down to what do you view as canon. Do you see the codexs as the only canon information or do you think its a mix of books and the codexs? Many of the stories of the army book apart of daemon of chaos(considering the way it is told and the stories within) in my opinion should be taken with a pinch of salt IMO.

I consider codexs like the propaganda of the faction telling you how awesome and invincible the said army is and their history. I view black library novels like the finer details in the propaganda. For example codex grey knights are talking about how incorruptible they are yet when you read their novels they are literally breaking their backs over wondering who is going to be the first to fall since no one has in the grey knights.

Sisters of battle pretty much the same thing you read they are beacons of the emperors light they are pure bla bla bla they don't fall etc. Yet you have Miriael and in the grey knights novel you have the cannoness saying that a sister falling is rare and they don't talk it about it at all. (I consider it like this when I read it that they pretty much kill or keep it on the down low on anyone who knows) I mean in abnett story on Miriael they were freaking out with the governor knowing some of the details.

Another example the chaos codex telling you how awesome and powerful you can be with chaos and all the other stuff you read the novels and you start seeing the issues that the codex don't talk about the gods like to mess with people. If you are not strong good luck to you with chaos and resource issues and all kinds of other stuff.

Everyone has an opinion on what canon is this is what I think on the subject so OP if it makes sense to you in that form then its okay imo.

Is that the same Grey Knights novel that precedes the one where a Grey Knight turns to Khorne, spends months as an Aspiring Champion, and then is welcomed back with open arms?

The same Grey Knights novel that describes a Terminator squad casting Holocaust as if it were a Waagh power?

Chaos Codex has plenty of info about the ones that don't measure up. :p Actually, I don't know if the fluff on Familiars from the 4e codex made into the 6e one or not...

As for Imperial Guard using faith, in several novels, the Tallarns are shown as over-performing due to "fervour" and "belief" on several occasions.

Well in the grey knights novel that was not exactly him his body was hijacked and by the time he fought off the possession the daemon was you know doing khorne things with his body in the mean time. Personally I don't like grey knight fluff and stories in general.

I just read the trilogy since I had nothing else to read during that time. XD

Scarey Nerd wrote:
I can't remember the rules on what you can say on here, but... If Slaanesh captured them? Well, have you seen A Serbian Film?

Just when I'd finally forgotten about that film, I'd say they'd be lucky if that's all that happened. Other groups would probably do the usual with them experiments, torture and sacrifice, thought they'd probably consider them as a better sacrifice.

 Lynata wrote:
Don't get me wrong, here - I am disapproving of these deviant portrayals you are referring to. But at the same time I guess I have come to realise that we'll just have to accept their existence as a fact, and how they will shape or support other people's perception of the Sisterhood.
I think I'll never cease to express my disappointment when some writer "does it wrong", even though I know that, with the way how 40k fluff works, there is no "wrong" to begin with.

I suppose what I'm actually trying to say is that it's of no use debating this when the one you are talking to already has made up their mind. The most you can achieve is to stress the point that this isn't what the GW core studio has written, and that your interpretation of the Sororitas is just as correct as his.

(and yes, I realise this must sound funny, coming from me - given that usually I am the stubborn one when it comes to these topics ... perhaps it's because this time you've already jumped in to take my place )

This sounds right.

The setting is so big that claiming to know "the truth" doesn´t seem correct. I usually go Codex & Background books > Black Library > anything else, but then I think of the Grey Knights Codex or the Necron Codex and, well... I find myself completely ignoring some Codex stuff.......

@Troike ................which is my position in our debate. You are right: according to the Codex, AoF seem caused by a mindset and a hard training, instead of having a supernatural cause. But I am in denial here, because of two reasons:
1) It makes no sense. As Veteran Sergeant said, the fluff is then rather silly. If you throw the biggest bomb you can imagine to a big group of Sisters that are not even wearing their armour, one out of six survive. Reason does not explain that. Magic exists in the setting so there is another explanation available. God protects the nuns, at least in this setting.
2) It would completely dilute the faction for me. Sure, "mindset and hard training". What about Kasrkins? Imperial Stormtroopers? Arbites? What about the soldiers from Krieg? They don´t even have a name. If Chaos is unable to touch the Sisters because their mindset and training, it would be really easy to apply the same training to, say, stormtroopers. Then all Codex: SoB/AA could be reduced to a single line in the stormtroopers entry in the Codex Imperial Guard. It is clearly a feeling shared by many people, including some GW writers, and I think it is the reason (one of them at least) behind the lack of attention given to this faction. But it is not like that! As you said, nobody else have Acts of Faith -> there MUST be something completely different.

In my opinion, there must be something in the ritual that turns Novices into Sisters of Battle. They go to Terra and there is something, perhaps something related with what happened between Alicia Dominica and the Emperor at the end of the Age of Apostasy, that connects them to their god.

Trying to find the name of the ritual I found a post by SisterSydney in this regard:

 SisterSydney wrote:

So the Sisters can get to Ecclesiarch's palace and back. Maybe they do it for purely religious reasons, maybe to do their own, subtler equivalent of Soul Binding -- which raises the intriguing possibility that maybe Novices can't perform Acts of Faith yet.

Yeah that´s my take on it. A Soul Binding equivalent.

 da001 wrote:

1) It makes no sense. As Veteran Sergeant said, the fluff is then rather silly. If you throw the biggest bomb you can imagine to a big group of Sisters that are not even wearing their armour, one out of six survive. Reason does not explain that. Magic exists in the setting so there is another explanation available. God protects the nuns, at least in this setting.

I quoted two good explanations by other posters for AoFs and the Shield of Faith respectively. It's not as unbelievable as you're making out. And again, magic existing does not automatically make it the only explanation for incredible things that happen.

I'd like to draw your attention back the 5E codex's description for AoFs, if I may:

Absolute belief in the Imperial Creed allows Sisters of Battle to perform the seemingly impossible.

The codex agrees with you, in a way! What they do seems impossible, but it's not.

 da001 wrote:
2) It would completely dilute the faction for me. Sure, "mindset and hard training".

Well, obviously I disagree. My viewpoiint is that it fits in perfectly with their status as humanity's best soldiers (the Space Marines being counted as post-human for the purposes of that statement). The most intense training, combined with some of the best equipment, with the firmest of beliefs letting mere humans hold their own without magic, superior numbers or physical enhancements, in a universe filled with monsters and sorcery. In regards to magic specifically, I'd say that them not being magical just ups the badassery. It's not some supernatural force making them tough, not something else lifting them up, no, it's them, sheer grit and absolute faith giving them their edge in 40K's brutal warzones.

 da001 wrote:
What about Kasrkins? Imperial Stormtroopers? Arbites? What about the soldiers from Krieg? They don´t even have a name. If Chaos is unable to touch the Sisters because their mindset and training, it would be really easy to apply the same training to, say, stormtroopers.

I'd say that what sets the Sisters apart is their intense indoctrination and upbrining, as well as their emphasis on religion. Simply put, as well as some of the most hardcore indoctrination around, they, moreso than any others, believe that their god will protect them and grant them the strength to cast down their enemies.

 da001 wrote:
Then all Codex: SoB/AA could be reduced to a single line in the stormtroopers entry in the Codex Imperial Guard.

By the Emperor, how heretical!

 da001 wrote:
It is clearly a feeling shared by many people, including some GW writers, and I think it is the reason (one of them at least) behind the lack of attention given to this faction

I'd say the lack of attention is more due to a lack of codex releases, myself. Or just a general lack of enthusiasm for them over Space Marines and IG. Dark Eldar don't get a major amount of coverafge either, from what I've heard.

 da001 wrote:
They go to Terra and there is something, perhaps something related with what happened between Alicia Dominica and the Emperor at the end of the Age of Apostasy, that connects them to their god.

Doubtful. Dominca got to see the Emperor in the flesh (or what's left of it, anyway). The Novices don't get something quite so major. Besides, we're not even sure what happened when Dominica went in there, it's always been a mystery. Maybe Big E himself told her to go and slap Vandire's gak, maybe she just felt something standing before her god and was at last able to see through Vandire's lies, we don't know.

@Troike: I ran out of arguments some time ago. According to the Codexes, you are right. However, I will still ignore that information, just like I ignore some stuff from other Codexes. I do this when I think that something is missing, and the information as told makes no sense.

The reason can be summarized like this:

 Troike wrote:

I'd say that what sets the Sisters apart is their intense indoctrination and upbrining, as well as their emphasis on religion.

I think there are many worlds in the setting which are able to raise a small force (just some hundreds of thousands) with a training and an emphasis of religion as intense and thorough as anything the Orders can get. And even if the Orders are still better for some reason, the difference in training and religious teaching will not be enough to explain the differences between a Sister of Battle and a veteran of the Imperial Guard, a Comissar or a Stormtrooper.

In many ways, I share the faith of the Sisters: I think the Emperor is a god and actively protects them. Or at least that the Sisters´ faith somehow connects them to him. Or that they are soul-bound to him. I don´t know, yet there must be something.

 Troike wrote:

 da001 wrote:
Then all Codex: SoB/AA could be reduced to a single line in the stormtroopers entry in the Codex Imperial Guard.

By the Emperor, how heretical!

Indeed I am. . I like the Sisters a lot, but my favorite faction is Chaos.

But it is nothing but the truth: if the Sisters are mere humans, and their faith a lie, they will be of no interest to me. Which brings us to the question asked by the OP. "Why would enemy capture sisters of battle and what would they do with them?"

While playing Chaos (Word Bearers), I see the Sisters as a natural enemy, an image in the mirror for those who believe in the Dark Gods. Who other but Lorgar wrote the book that the Sisters hold as the ultimate truth? They are the ones holding a position that was supposed to belong to the Word Bearers. For the sin of believing what the Sisters believe, Lorgar and his sons were severely punished.

A Sister captured alive will be a highly valuable price. And the story of Miriael Sabathiel adds an even more exciting twist: the possibility of showing her the light that hides inside the darkness of Chaos, and get a Champion whose very existence would be a great victory in itself.

What if their faith was false? My Word Bearers will have no interest in them, and neither will I. There are lots of fanatical soldiers in the setting, everywhere.

One last thing: according to that piece of fluff (that appeared in a Codex), the blood of the Sisters provides a protection against Daemons so powerful that the Grey Knights used it when they thought their own protections were not going to be enough. Not my favorite piece of background, but it fits perfectly in my heretical theories.