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Ahh, I just can't resist.

da001 wrote:If you throw the biggest bomb you can imagine to a big group of Sisters that are not even wearing their armour, one out of six survive. Reason does not explain that.

Sure you can. Maybe the 6th Sister's body was shielded by one or more of the 5 others. Maybe she got knocked down just in time to survive the blast washing over her back (whilst still receiving internal injuries, but not actually dying immediately). Maybe there was a piece of cover not represented on the board. All of this is covered by abstraction - just apply a bit of creativity, think of the many things that can happen on a battlefield, and you're there!
Surviving a safe does not mean not being injured at all - just like being "killed" by not doing so must not automatically mean the character is actually dead. There's a lot of wiggle room in-between.

And it's not like a whole lot of armies do not have similar mechanics. In fact, the Blood Angels' Blood Chalice seems to function in much a similar way, with nearby Marines hearing the voice of their Primarch in their heads and being "urged to greater glory" ... so they get Furious Charge and FNP. I'd say this is another example of faith, just that this one doesn't work via religion. Unless, of course, one would interpret the Marine Chapters' rites as a religion of their own, but now we're delving into semantics.

da001 wrote:I think there are many worlds in the setting which are able to raise a small force (just some hundreds of thousands) with a training and an emphasis of religion as intense and thorough as anything the Orders can get.

Possibly. And why not? Even the Daughters of the Emperor started out as nothing but a small cult on some backwater Agriworld.

Whatever else there is simply doesn't have its own codex.

da001 wrote:And even if the Orders are still better for some reason, the difference in training and religious teaching will not be enough to explain the differences between a Sister of Battle and a veteran of the Imperial Guard, a Comissar or a Stormtrooper.

This you need to explain.
The lifestyle alone - being surrounded by people who aren't quite as zealous instead of shutting yourself off from the outer world in some isolated convent - is bound to have a major effect on your faith and character.

That's not to say that there may not be some individuals who might stand out from the others and are just as fanatical - but the codices are there to reflect the standards, the average individual of that one organisation. Everything else is special characters.
For example, how would you explain Commissar Yarrick pulling off a Celestine on a roll of 3+ thanks to his "Iron Will" trait?

The "good" thing is that the franchise is intentionally open to deviant interpretations. As much as Troike and myself think that it would devalue the Adepta Sororitas, it's not as if licensed products would not support your preferred interpretation at all. FFG's Blood of Martyrs, for example, has them clearly use divine magic, in quite impressive ways.
It all comes down to personal preferences.

da001 wrote:One last thing: according to that piece of fluff (that appeared in a Codex), the blood of the Sisters provides a protection against Daemons so powerful that the Grey Knights used it when they thought their own protections were not going to be enough. Not my favorite piece of background, but it fits perfectly in my heretical theories.

The original text mentioned that the GKs needed "the blood of innocents" - implying that the Sisters are not the only possible source of it, but simply one option, and one that was at hand at the time. How I am perceiving this event, this "innocence" is referring to their spiritual purity, and since the Sisters were indoctrinated from infancy, a lot of them (perhaps excluding some veterans who have "seen more") are likely to be almost naively infertile when it comes to how bad and twisted life in the Imperium actually is, for the Sisters see only black and white, rather than the many shades of grey that exist.

And if we consider that in this setting, blood seems to resonate with a piece of the soul of its former owner (making it such a potent paraphernalia in Sorcery), and that psychic powers including daemonic rituals utilise the Warp which reacts to souls, I can see how someone could've come up with the idea to use one to block the other.

Or maybe this was just superstition and the GK's would not have actually needed it after all.

Lynata wrote:For example, how would you explain Commissar Yarrick pulling off a Celestine on a roll of 3+ thanks to his "Iron Will" trait? 

Easy. Orks. Orks psychic field make whatever a collected group of individuals believe in, fact. Another case of faith=fact if I may say. Loads of Orks believe Yarrick to be "Da Ooman", immortal. Ergo, he is.

The Waaagh-field is a psychic effect and the Orks are telepathically linked by the nature of their genes. Acts of Faith, on the other hand, are strictly non-psychic.

Also, wouldn't this Waaagh-field exist only where there are Orks, too?

 Lynata wrote:
The Waaagh-field is a psychic effect and the Orks are telepathically linked by the nature of their genes. Acts of Faith, on the other hand, are strictly non-psychic.

Also, wouldn't this Waaagh-field exist only where there are Orks, too?

Who knows? Maybe it actually is psychics. It's not like their beloved Emperor is the most famous psyker in the galaxy...

Scarey Nerd wrote:
I did have an image of the Sisters being paraded around in grotesque bridal outfits as they were originally the Brides of the Emperor. I rather think that at least Slaanesh would find it hilarious to make them his brides instead.

Is it a bad thing to want to see this?

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Who knows? Maybe it actually is psychics. It's not like their beloved Emperor is the most famous psyker in the galaxy...

If you prefer to regard them this way - your choice.
GW has made it clear in their out-of-universe rules that they are not, though.
Feel free to disregard it, just know that "we" are not making stuff up out of thin air.

 da001 wrote:
And even if the Orders are still better for some reason, the difference in training and religious teaching will not be enough to explain the differences between a Sister of Battle and a veteran of the Imperial Guard, a Comissar or a Stormtrooper.

To expand just a tiny bit on what Lynata said, one of these groups lives in a convent, the other lives in a barracks or a starship.

 da001 wrote:
Or at least that the Sisters´ faith somehow connects them to him.

Now, this I'm more open to. The incredible faith of the Sisters is probably maiking quite an impression in the warp. Though whether all of that energy is going to Big E, we don't know.

 da001 wrote:
While playing Chaos (Word Bearers), I see the Sisters as a natural enemy, an image in the mirror for those who believe in the Dark Gods.

I feel the same way! They are, indeed, very natural enemies.

 da001 wrote:
Who other but Lorgar wrote the book that the Sisters hold as the ultimate truth?

Not necessarily. As I understand, the 2E Sisters codex talks about the Ecclesiarchy arising from a cult called Temple of The Saviour Emperor that managed to grow enough to absorb or destroy most other cults, eventually coalescing into the Ecclesiarchy. So the Ecclesiarchy's dogma isn't necessarily just Lorgar-created.

 da001 wrote:
What if their faith was false? My Word Bearers will have no interest in them, and neither will I. There are lots of fanatical soldiers in the setting, everywhere.

I don't know. Magical or not, they'd still be very high-status targets. They're insanely devoted to the god that the Word Bearers left, fight for the church that worships him, and have a reputation for actively stamping out heresy. The Sisters are doing plenty to get the attention of the Word Bearers, magical or no.

There's also the question of whether the Word Bearers would even know just how the Sisters do the things that they do. They might just see them as the belief-fuelled feats that they are, assuming they do not view the Emperor as divine. This would actually be quite amusing, in a way, as the Sisters do see it as their God empowering and protecting them.

 Lynata wrote:
instead of shutting yourself off from the outer world in some isolated convent

You know, I can't help but think of Sisters as a relgious version of "basement-dwellers", sometimes.

The Church of the Saviour Emperor was the belief that spread from the Crusade Fleets, so yeah, it's Lorgar's book they arose from - Pre-heretic Lorgar, I will add.

The other side, the Confederacy of Light, were more spontaneous and originally probably a Tzeentchian cult. They were wiped out though, and the second Confederacy was inspired by Thor pretty much from scratch.

Troike wrote:Not necessarily. As I understand, the 2E Sisters codex talks about the Ecclesiarchy arising from a cult called Temple of The Saviour Emperor that managed to grow enough to absorb or destroy most other cults, eventually coalescing into the Ecclesiarchy. So the Ecclesiarchy's dogma isn't necessarily just Lorgar-created.

Yup. I too am not subscribing to this idea of the Sisters of Battle being subjected to yet another episode of getting d**kslapped by the Marines just because some random Black Library novel author thinks it'd be a cool idea if their faith was started by a Primarch.

Cults worshipping the Emperor as a god sprang up all across the Imperium - without any connection to each other (and thus a certain book that Lorgar supposedly wrote) whatsoever, evidenced by the simple fact that they all followed different religious doctrines and dogma. Hence the holy wars, during which the various movements clashed with one another, either eradicating or absorbing what, in their eyes, was a bunch of heretics. The winner of this was the Temple of The Saviour Emperor, started on Terra by a man named Fatidicus, who was originally an officer of the military serving in the defence of the Imperial Palace. The Temple having the backing of the military as well as being centred on Terra itself was a huge boost to its influence, explaining how it was able to simply overpower rival religious groups.

Perhaps whatever Lorgar founded was amongst those rival groups, though I find it far more likely that these groups were eradicated by the Inquisition simply because that book was written by a traitor. And I highly doubt that Lorgar was so unselfish that he forgot to put his name on the cover - especially considering how his name would have helped spreading it before the Heresy.

Troike wrote:I don't know. Magical or not, they'd still be very high-status targets. They're insanely devoted to the god that the Word Bearers left, fight for the church that worships him, and have a reputation for actively stamping out heresy. The Sisters are doing plenty to get the attention of the Word Bearers, magical or no.

Indeed. What exactly does the background of this faith matter when it'd have zero influence on how these factions perceive each other?

Troike wrote:You know, I can't help but think of Sisters as a relgious version of "basement-dwellers", sometimes.

How do you think the Orders Dialogous operate?

Furyou Miko wrote:The Church of the Saviour Emperor was the belief that spread from the Crusade Fleets, so yeah, it's Lorgar's book they arose from - Pre-heretic Lorgar, I will add.

The Temple of the Saviour Emperor was not founded until after the Horus Heresy, though. Your suggestion would necessitate that Fatidicus willingly adopted the beliefs of a known traitor to the Emperor, at a point in time at which the Emperor was already dead.
Does not compute.

 Lynata wrote:

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Who knows? Maybe it actually is psychics. It's not like their beloved Emperor is the most famous psyker in the galaxy...

If you prefer to regard them this way - your choice.
GW has made it clear in their out-of-universe rules that they are not, though.
Feel free to disregard it, just know that "we" are not making stuff up out of thin air.

No need to go on the offensive. I said 'maybe'. Just speculating.

Ah, just looked at the 6E 'dex's description for Shield of Faith that I posted earlier ITT, and it actually says something very relevant to the debate about SoF:

The Sisters of Battle are taught that faith is a shield stronger than any armour. Such is the power of their belief that the Emperor will protect them that the Adepta Sororitas can shrug off the most severe of wounds and resist the witchcraft of enemy sorcerers.

Note how it says that it's just them shrugging off wounds. Not getting blown to bits, or shot in the head, just pushing past a wound.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:No need to go on the offensive. I said 'maybe'. Just speculating.

Apologies - I may have misinterpreted your tone; this can happen quickly on forums, I guess.

Please excuse this if it is too much, but don't you think the DE and/or Chaos would be clever enough to basically "farm" torture victims by forcing the first few to breed? Eventually, there could be a hive city-sized POW camp that be replenished by the denizens as their captors continue to reap victims, and occasionally enlist a few extra cultists? Sounds fitting in the 40k environment.

Or are DE/chaos just too whimsical and short-lived in their actions to devise such a plot (perhaps Tzeentch could take up the task)?

Seems like a question for its own thread - but on a hunch I'd say the Dark Eldar are too focused on raiding as a sport. Also, to their wicked idea of fun, torturing "fresh" victims probably feels more fulfilling than toying with someone who is already broken due to growing up in some dark dungeron. This might even affect how long they "last" as a toy, or how much worth they are as a sacrifice to She Who Thirsts.

The forces of Chaos, on the other hand, have their own worlds and warbands with uncounted millions of devoted slaves by default. I'm sure some of them may be descendents of prisoners, but rather purely by accident rather than "breeding". All those cultists are already multiplying on their own, after all. The only exception I could think of would be some Slaaneshi cult who would do this for fun, rather than because they want the children.

Huh. I suffered a critical lore failure, I apologise. I'd forgotten all about Fatidicus.

That's alright, Sister - it happens to the best of us (perhaps some novel authors as well?).

Twenty lashes with the scoriada, ten Ave Dominicas, and no dinner today.

I got it!!!! The very torture fit enough to crush even the conditioned mind of a battle sister! Print out a 241-pages long forum argument, trailing off from the main point (or any other point, really) every 5 pages and let make them decide who's right

 Lynata wrote:
That's alright, Sister - it happens to the best of us (perhaps some novel authors as well?).

Twenty lashes with the scoriada, ten Ave Dominicas, and no dinner today.

Thank you, Sister, I will endeavour to improve myself in the future.

 Kosake wrote:
Print out a 241-pages long forum argument, trailing off from the main point (or any other point, really) every 5 pages and let make them decide who's right

A flamer or heavy flamer makes short work of the print-out. Not to mention the idiot who tried to distract the Sisters from their holy duty. :-)

Spetulhu wrote:

 Kosake wrote:
Print out a 241-pages long forum argument, trailing off from the main point (or any other point, really) every 5 pages and let make them decide who's right

A flamer or heavy flamer makes short work of the print-out. Not to mention the idiot who tried to distract the Sisters from their holy duty. :-)

It could be a theological dispute and masked as a "find the heretic" question. Only by carefull examination is it possible to find out, who of the disputants a heretic is. But it is all a trap, since ALL of them are heretics and by accepting one or the other as being right, the offending sister will do heresy as well! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Hell, I missed my call as a tzenchian sorc.

It's never too late to answer the call of Tzeentch.

@Troike, @Lynata: first, just a little unrelated thing concerning GKs:
That being said, I am stepping out of this debate. The background clearly hints that I am wrong, and I am not discussing it. Yet I will ignore it, for the reasons given. I hope more stuff is written on the matter by GW... Since then, you won.

da001 wrote:That being said, I am stepping out of this debate. The background clearly hints that I am wrong, and I am not discussing it. Yet I will ignore it, for the reasons given. I hope more stuff is written on the matter by GW... Since then, you won.

You can't be "wrong" as all sources and interpretations are equally valid, and there is quite a lot of licensed material supporting yours as well (Dark Heresy, Dawn of War, ...). For better or worse, that's the way the franchise works. The only thing that might matter at all is that we know where a certain version originates from, as some people subjectively select what idea they subscribe to based on the source.

Also, thank you for this excerpt!

PS: Dammit, everytime I see one of Miko's "avatar posts" I feel the need to exalt it just for the style, but I fear I may have done so too often already...

Don't worry, da001, for every secret the Ordo Chronos reveals, the Ordo Redacto destroys another piece of priceless history (love the fact they have minor ordo fluff in the C:I book).

Don't worry, Linata, every time you get too exalt-happy, just remember I'm more style than substance.

 Lynata wrote:

Also, thank you for this excerpt!
PS: Dammit, everytime I see one of Miko's "avatar posts" I feel the need to exalt it just for the style, but I fear I may have done so too often already...

You are welcome! And thank you too.

Also, I share your view on Furyou Miko´s posts.

 Lynata wrote:
That's alright, Sister - it happens to the best of us (perhaps some novel authors as well?).

Twenty lashes with the scoriada, ten Ave Dominicas, and no dinner today.

Not helping with my guesses at one of your interests. Let me just put it this way you are german, you like cyberpunk and you said you're giving her lashes. I think you have a leather fetish ;P. I apologize if I've said something I shouldn't have as I probably just did. I'll edit that out if you wish.

So yeah as I said before the dark eldar tortured sisters horribly in soulstorm and one received a lot more torture to be left as an example for everybody else. Of course this is the game that made sisters have space magic, included 'metal boxes' (to be fair space marine designs aren't often that elegant though human constructs are fairly practical and do the job) and 100 baneblades being lost. I'll never get over the 100 baneblades being lost no matter how much 4chan seems to like soulstorm's IG general and that was one of my favorite factions. In current times to have 3 on the field is a day to behold but even for a forgeworld and an entire star system 100 baneblades being just lost should equal execution for the leadership on the spot if that's even possible to have that many in the first place over such a small area. Sorry for the rant.

I'd imagine this thread's very title opened up a can of worms with just the whole corrupting 'sisters' thing. 'Good' girls turning 'bad' and this isn't even a crappy p*rn made by d-bags. I suppose they could torture them but they basically get tortured by their order a bit I'd imagine.

Perhaps if they captured a sister they could torture her and kill her gruesomely as an example to other sisters before another battle. Although that'd probably just make them fight harder. It might make them more reckless though. I could imagine it'd scare the crap out of some guardsmen to see fellows being horribly mutilated by their enemies before a battle. Perhaps they could kill sisters and put insignias on her or try to possess them with daemons.

What seems likely to me is to keep them for a sacrifice to the chaos gods. Something about killing innocents or good and faithful soldiers of the emperor probably gets the chaos gods excited in their nether regions.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
The Waaagh-field is a psychic effect and the Orks are telepathically linked by the nature of their genes. Acts of Faith, on the other hand, are strictly non-psychic.

Also, wouldn't this Waaagh-field exist only where there are Orks, too?

Who knows? Maybe it actually is psychics. It's not like their beloved Emperor is the most famous psyker in the galaxy...

Acts of Faith are defined as being specifically non-psychic in origin.

Not helping with my guesses at one of your interests. Let me just put it this way you are german, you like cyberpunk and you said you're giving her lashes. I think you have a leather fetish ;P. I apologize if I've said something I shouldn't have as I probably just did. I'll edit that out if you wish.

You... don't understand how old-school Catholic Schools, or the Sisters of Battle, work... do you?

I mean, there's a *reason* that Catholic School imagery resonates so much in the BDSM scene, is because there was a whole lot of corporal mortification going on without there being any of the kinky fun-times angles. The fetish aspects arose out of the reality.

I got it!!!! The very torture fit enough to crush even the conditioned mind of a battle sister! Print out a 241-pages long forum argument, trailing off from the main point (or any other point, really) every 5 pages and let make them decide who's right

That's what the Orders Dialoguous are for. They'll have it sorted out "soon".

 Psienesis wrote:

Not helping with my guesses at one of your interests. Let me just put it this way you are german, you like cyberpunk and you said you're giving her lashes. I think you have a leather fetish ;P. I apologize if I've said something I shouldn't have as I probably just did. I'll edit that out if you wish.

You... don't understand how old-school Catholic Schools, or the Sisters of Battle, work... do you?

I mean, there's a *reason* that Catholic School imagery resonates so much in the BDSM scene, is because there was a whole lot of corporal mortification going on without there being any of the kinky fun-times angles. The fetish aspects arose out of the reality.

It was kind of a joke actually. I realize it's for punishment but I didn't know the details.

Orks would either make them walk the plank to the pit full of hungry squigs; or make them fight grots in pit fight, probably with bare fists or lousy weapons like sticks and cattle prods (to make the squishy grots&girls last longer).

Tau would lock them in comfortable padded-wall cells/prison blocks and bore them with day after day odf tolerance&communism propoganda.

Necrons... some alien experiments, with dissecting and stuff, reminiscent of alien abductions; or have them locked in stasis as statues to add to more extravagant Phaeron's collections.

Slaanesh dudes would torment/senualy please them trying to break their will and loualty and start liking it (not as hard as you might think, since most sororita orders have habbit of self-flagilation already and are extremely frustrated sexually);
Tzeench dudes would again lock them up and try to mindfuk them with Hannibal-style talks; trying to make them belive that emperor is chaos or other such BS just for lilz.
Khorne dudes would force them to gladiatorial fights or such.
Dark eldars>>slaanesh;
eldars would not bother.

Grots?

Oomans can fight yoofs at least!