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 Troike wrote:
Wow. I always thought that the numbers sounded a little low, but that's something else. And that was with very conservative maths, apparently. Gah, now I'm really uneasy with the numbers, again.

As I've said, I wouldn't mind them getting retconned up in numbers next codex. But the established numbers are still right there in the rulebook, so I think it's something that GW is going to stick to. But, as always, I'm very interested to hear what a new codex would have to say about it. Maybe it'll surprise us?

Well I emailed it into GW and asked for it to be passed to the Dev team so who knows!

 Lynata wrote:

Frozen Ocean wrote:Nothing in particular. The setting is still too large! Also, there are plenty more Convents; just because those are the largest does not mean that they contain the bulk of their number.

Well, outside the Convents Prioris and Sanctorum, there's only the Minor Orders and their local obligations. The Minor Orders generally don't seem to partake in the larger wars, specifically because they are only around ~100 Sisters large each.
But yes, the Minor Orders are also the "unknown variable" where we don't know how many there are (unlike the six Major Orders). The only thing we know is that they don't show up very often in the fluff.

Still, you say "nothing in particular" - that I can't accept. The size of a setting alone is no grounds for the size of a force. Purpose, possibilities and limitations are. Otherwise that's just like saying "a country is this large, that means they must have X special forces".

And the Sisters of Battle are not meant to wage war in the truest fashion either - because that didn't turn out so well for the Imperium back in the Age of Apostasy.

Frozen Ocean wrote:Space Marines are similarly armed, if not better!

Not better as per GW's fluff - but similar, yes, and let us not forget all those vehicles, fliers and space ships. Much more than the Sororitas would have (imho).
The Ecclesiarchy has to juggle its budget, though. Whereas the Space Marines just shove everything they have into maintaining the Chapter, the Adeptus Ministorum also needs to maintain and build all those huge cathedrals we see. And a Sister of Battle, as powerful as they are, likely has a smaller life expectancy than a Space Marine. Dying easier also means a greater loss in expensive wargear.
Still, I admit this isn't the main reason I'd see for them to be a smaller force. Just one of several. The political considerations are probably more important?

[edit] Hey, what's with the edit?

lets not forget lifting the back ends of APC's out of the mud one handed, or being immune unarmored to small arms, or immune with armor to anything but heavy weaponry their enemies may field.
Marines aren't human. This is very highlighted with the church and the sisters not liking the marines, due to their alien bone structure, 5 hearts, 4 lungs, eating brains to get memories, belching acid, Inhuman height, the list goes on and on. Marines aren't human,
Likely? Marines may get white hair but they'll be far stronger than those neophytes due to having even more muscle and experience. Their muscles don't age at all ( I actually have to point this out to you, but that's how you die of old age) Their skin might but that's seems to be the only thing that does.
The average life time of a marine is about 80-100 years on the dot due to being KIA. I don't think sisters live that long.....

Wait! My capacity for rationalization has returned.

Let's go back to Lynata's amazing mastery of the background:

 Lynata wrote:
It's also worth pointing out that every single Novice Sister takes her vows on Terra itself, in a ceremony in presence of the Ecclesiarch, with only 499 other novices present. I just don't see this working out if there'd be millions of them that'd have to be shipped around like that.

First of all, we know the Imperium ships people in bulk to Terra all the time: That's what the Black Ships are for. Most of those guys don't survive to get shipped back out again, but the Imperium must also send fully Soul Bound astropaths outbound from Earth all the time or else its entire communications network starts to collapse.

If they can do that for filthy psykers, they can do it for both Novices (inbound to Terra) and new Sisters (outbound). In fact, if I were commanding a Black Ship inbound or outbound, I'd be more than happy to give a free ride to some incorruptible, psyker-resistant, combat-trained young women, even if they're just Novices. And from the Sororitas perspective, this would just the kind of pilgrimage/ordeal to shape a young Sister. If the journey's too long, just pop the Sisters in stasis for most of the journey and unthaw them for crises (and wouldn't that be a nightmarish experience: go to sleep, wake up, shoot rioting psykers -- including kids -- in a hold that's gotten out of control, go to sleep, repeat).

So the Sisters can get to Ecclesiarch's palace and back. Maybe they do it for purely religious reasons, maybe to do their own, subtler equivalent of Soul Binding -- which raises the intriguing possibility that maybe Novices can't perform Acts of Faith yet.

Now we hit the (arbitrary) limit of 500 novices being initiated at a time. Okay, let's stipulate that, but how often does the Ecclesiarch do this? Once a year? Once a month? Once a week? Once a day? Think how often the Pope presides over a mass.

Let's give the Space Pope weekends off and two weeks' paid vacation per year. That leaves 250 working days (50 work weeks x 5 weekdays). Let's say he goes out on his balcony and accepts the loyalty of a new batch of 500 Novices every workday before breakfast.



250 ceremonies a year x 500 Novices per ceremony = 125,000 new Sisters a year.

Since the Sisterhood's numbers are steady, the recruitment rate has to equal the death & retirement rate. Given the Sororitas attitude towards martyrdom, let's conservatively assume the average Sister serves for ten years before being killed or disabled at around age 30. By average here I mean the mean; the median will likely be much lower: A minority of the toughest, luckiest Sisters will serve for decades, but most of the good die young.

That gives a steady state figure of 1,250,000 Sisters galaxywide.

Play with the figures a little bit -- fewer ceremonies per year, fewer novices per ceremony, or conversely a longer lifespan for Battle Sisters -- and you can get wildly different numbers. (A ceremony per week, minus two weeks off, with a 10-year average service life gives 50x250x10 = 125,000 Sisters galaxywide; 250 ceremonies a year as above with a 15-year service life gives you 1.875 million).

So I'm not saying this is how it has to be. The fluff passages about the Sisterhood being centralized on Terra and Ophelia suggests otherwise. But it shows the logistics of a million-plus Battle Sisters are trivial for the Imperium, even if the Ecclesiarch has to lay eyes on every single one of them.

P.S.: Clockwork's numbers are pretty terrifyingly huge. He probably overestimates a lot: 5 billion seems high for the average planet that's not a Hive World, and his Drake Equation doesn't seem to factor in that they have to be (1) orphans (2) whose parents died in the service of the Imperium. So let's assume he's overstating things by a factor of 1,000: Instead of his 10,514,050,000 Battle Sisters, you get a mere ten million.

I keep editing this to add jokes to the spoilered part, not to change my figures...

My 1% was me actually saying that at MOST 1% of the Imperium could meet the criteria of being a girl, and being the orphaned daughter of an officer and an adept. Considering the massive scale of deaths in the Imperium and the number of planets and the number of Scholeras it's not unreasonable to imagine such a large pool.

And as of 3rd Ed all Sisters are trained on Ophelia VII or Terra. I don't recall the oaths on Terra thing though.

To address another point, you do realize that Earth has over 7 Billion peple right? My average is assuming that all other Imperium owned planets of the million planets average less people than Earth does.

For more perspective here are some numbers that I could find on worlds that are not Hive Worlds:

Feudal Worlds: 10,000,000 - 500,000,000
Feral Worlds: 100,000 - 5,000,000
Agri Worlds: <100,000,000
Civilized World: 15,000,000 - 10,000,000,000
Forge World: 80,000,000 - 20,000,000,000
Fortress World: 250,000,000 - 120,000,000,000
Death Worlds (Nocturne): 15,000,000

So 5 Billion seemed like a good spread for a low average as this doesn't even count in a number of other planets (to include those who are Dead Worlds, War Worlds and Cementary Worlds).

EDIT: Additionally we intentionally went low on the Hive World numbers as they have anywhere from 5-20 Hives a planet with anything from 10-100 Billion a Hive (with a population that DOUBLES every 100 years) we went low and said 10 Hives with 50 Billion a Hive just to try and catch a low median (I know the mid-point between 5 and 20 isn't 10 but we were aiming a touch low on purpose) for 500 billion per Hive. That alone got us 16 Quintillion before we even added anyone else in, which is 10 Quintillion more than my original "low" estimate of 6 Quintillion some pages ago.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
For another comparison tool, the number I gave is 0.00005% of the Imperium's total population that we worked off of. To make it easier to swallow if the US had the same percentage of Sisters to citizens that'd give the entire US 300 Battle Sisters, or 6 per state.

ClockworkZion wrote:Oh I understand, I just think the Frateris Militia is only being used as a true militia at most based on what we have.

Hmm? I'm sorry, here I don't understand what you mean.

ClockworkZion wrote:You replied to the Reign of Blood bit as a point in your favor, hence my response.

Yes, but that was because you mistakenly thought I'd refer to Vandire's forces when I mentioned Sebastian Thor and the Age of Apostasy, when I actually meant Vandire's enemies - that "bunch of zealous but untrained men" which were the origin and the core of the Confederacy of Light.

ClockworkZion wrote:Oh, and as for the Orphan thing we've got an established incident where the daughter of a Rogue Trader ran away from home (so to speak) and joined a covenant of Sisters to become one. So there is precedence for women to become them in other ways it seems (it's from the first Arbites novel). [...] We're dragging in everything else under the sun and BL has been officially stated as just as canon as every other source, so I didn't see why not to bring novels into it.

Because we can either discuss GW's material, or we'll have to settle for each of us preferring different and unconnected sources. Yes, everything is equally "canon" in that it is not canon at all. The different books were not written with the intention to create a single consistent setting, which is why they will often contradict each other. For example, that orphan thing you were referring to is in blatant conflict with Codex fluff explicitly stating that every single Battle Sister is raised in the Schola from infancy - no exceptions.

So we will have to decide which source we are discussing, but we cannot just go the Lexicanum route and throw everything into a pot and expect it to tie into each other. It (mostly) works within some novel series that were written by a team of authors, and it (mostly) works with the various codices and rulebooks that were written by the team of GW game designers. But once you throw books from different authors together, expect a contradiction, because different people have different ideas, and 40k's artistic licence lets everything be equally "optional".

Me, I'm discussing the Adepta Sororitas based on GW's own writings. I can't expect anyone else to view the Sisters in the same light, but similarly I cannot be expected to change GW's rather consistent portrayal of this faction just because some random freelancer put out another new novel that fails to depict the Sisters the way they are described in the Codices. *coughMitchellcough*

And as far as I'm concerned, the same goes for anything else in the setting. The Horus Heresy authors can keep touting their Primarchs as immortal until they're blue in the face - I'll just keep pointing to the 6E rulebook that explicitly states they were not.

Anyways, I dunno if you've already stumbled upon this, but here I have collected a few statements from various GW people and BL novel authors to describe the value of "canon" in 40k.

ClockworkZion wrote:To keep the numbers reasonably low we worked off the following rules:
1% of the entire Imperium meets the very basic criteria to be considered for becoming a Sororitas.

This right there is the first mistake. 1% of the entire population of the Imperium fulfills the basic criteria?

Every 50th(!) human female in the Imperium just happens to be the daughter of an Imperial official that was orphaned at birth and happens to be genetically pure?!

No. The Imperium doesn't even have that many officials, let alone pregnant ones who give up their kids at birth.

The way it looks to me, a lot of posters here are trying to justify vastly inflated numbers by any means possible - not by looking at the numbers and hints actually provided by GW, but by arbitrarily deciding there need to be billions of Sisters and then thinking "how do we make this happen?" and then beginning to construct supposed evidence around this basis. I think I'm much more happy with my position as the Devil's Advocate - at least it results in my interpretation actually being reflected in the material I read.

Hollowman wrote:I don't think so. Orks spend all their time drinking, carousing and fighting too, but that does not make them human in any meaningful sense.

If you think that drinking, carousing and fighting are typically human habits, then of course it does.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/human

Hollowman wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Hollowman wrote:Marines gave a more constrained set of reactions - they don't respond the way humans do to a variety of things according to GW. The Sisters have a superior range of behavior and are more adaptable than the astartes

Not according to GW.

Not according to the fluff I have read on Space marines.

Your fluff on Space Marines included a line that Sisters have "a superior range of behavior"? Citation needed.

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:lets not forget lifting the back ends of APC's out of the mud one handed, or being immune unarmored to small arms, or immune with armor to anything but heavy weaponry their enemies may field.

"Against most small arms, the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st millennium."
- 2E C:AoD, Space Marine Power Armour

Perhaps they are immune unarmoured to small arms fire in FFG's movie-like Deathwatch RPG, or certain uberepic Black Library novels, but they are not immune in GW's tabletop, GW's Inquisitor RPG, or GW's Codex fluff.

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:Their muscles don't age at all

Citation needed.

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:The average life time of a marine is about 80-100 years on the dot due to being KIA. I don't think sisters live that long.....

Canoness Carmina would seem to disagree.
Not that I'm suggesting she is the norm or average. Just an example for how old they can get at least. And this is a Canoness, so add another ~30 years for climbing up the ranks, and another ~17 for Schola upbringing and novitiate = circa 145 years.

SisterSydney wrote:250 ceremonies a year x 500 Novices per ceremony = 125,000 new Sisters a year.

That is if you think the Ecclesiarch has nothing to do but initiating novices all the time. Each ceremony lasts an entire night - I'd expect the poor man to get some sleep every now and then, and let's not even talk about Ecclesiarchal conclaves, Senatorum sessions, etc.
This is the Space Pope we're talking about. Personally, I'd expect him to be busier with ... y'know, Space Church stuff, than mass-processing new Space Nuns every day.

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:Oh I understand, I just think the Frateris Militia is only being used as a true militia at most based on what we have.

Hmm? I'm sorry, here I don't understand what you mean.

Militias are defensive forces, reacting to emergencies and defending against invaders not being the main fighting faction in wars. But that's just my view on them.

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:You replied to the Reign of Blood bit as a point in your favor, hence my response.

Yes, but that was because you mistakenly thought I'd refer to Vandire's forces when I mentioned Sebastian Thor and the Age of Apostasy, when I actually meant Vandire's enemies - that "bunch of zealous but untrained men" which were the origin and the core of the Confederacy of Light.

And whom Thor was telling to NOT be aggressive, rioting donkey-caves.

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:Oh, and as for the Orphan thing we've got an established incident where the daughter of a Rogue Trader ran away from home (so to speak) and joined a covenant of Sisters to become one. So there is precedence for women to become them in other ways it seems (it's from the first Arbites novel). [...] We're dragging in everything else under the sun and BL has been officially stated as just as canon as every other source, so I didn't see why not to bring novels into it.

Because we can either discuss GW's material, or we'll have to settle for each of us preferring different and unconnected sources. Yes, everything is equally "canon" in that it is not canon at all. The different books were not written with the intention to create a single consistent setting, which is why they will often contradict each other. For example, that orphan thing you were referring to is in blatant conflict with Codex fluff explicitly stating that every single Battle Sister is raised in the Schola from infancy - no exceptions.

I get what you're claiming, but let's be honest there is a lot from the BL books we're shirking that we bring up all the time. The stuff from Hammer and Anvil for example. Either we count all references or none of them.

 Lynata wrote:
So we will have to decide which source we are discussing, but we cannot just go the Lexicanum route and throw everything into a pot and expect it to tie into each other. It (mostly) works within some novel series that were written by a team of authors, and it (mostly) works with the various codices and rulebooks that were written by the team of GW game designers. But once you throw books from different authors together, expect a contradiction, because different people have different ideas, and 40k's artistic licence lets everything be equally "optional".

It seems to be getting better, but even with contradictions we're dealing with an insanely huge Imperium and there is enough room for most of it to exist without contradictions really clashing.

 Lynata wrote:
Me, I'm discussing the Adepta Sororitas based on GW's own writings. I can't expect anyone else to view the Sisters in the same light, but similarly I cannot be expected to change GW's rather consistent portrayal of this faction just because some random freelancer put out another new novel that fails to depict the Sisters the way they are described in the Codices. *coughMitchellcough*

I hadn't even touched Mitchell's stuff because I haven't read it.

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:To keep the numbers reasonably low we worked off the following rules:
1% of the entire Imperium meets the very basic criteria to be considered for becoming a Sororitas.

This right there is the first mistake. 1% of the entire population of the Imperium fulfills the basic criteria?

Every 50th(!) human female in the Imperium just happens to be the daughter of an Imperial official that was orphaned at birth and happens to be genetically pure?!

No. The Imperium doesn't even have that many officials, let alone pregnant ones who give up their kids at birth.

Officers OR adepts. And that includes officers in the Imperial Guard for instance. How many of those die EVERY DAY again?

 Lynata wrote:
The way it looks to me, a lot of posters here are trying to justify vastly inflated numbers by any means possible - not by looking at the numbers and hints actually provided by GW, but by arbitrarily deciding there need to be billions of Sisters and then thinking "how do we make this happen?" and then beginning to construct supposed evidence around this basis. I think I'm much more happy with my position as the Devil's Advocate - at least it results in my interpretation actually being reflected in the material I read.

I can work off smaller numbers but we need to get really silly to get down to 100K. That would mean the Imperium only has only a few hundred thousand Officers and Adepts. That's too damned small for the size of the Imperium, much less organizations like the Imperial Guard.

Your interpretation is supported, but I was just trying to give us an idea of what would be more sensible based on the actual size of the Imperium and just how damned big it is based on the actual information we have.

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:Oh I understand, I just think the Frateris Militia is only being used as a true militia at most based on what we have.

Hmm? I'm sorry, here I don't understand what you mean.

ClockworkZion wrote:You replied to the Reign of Blood bit as a point in your favor, hence my response.

Yes, but that was because you mistakenly thought I'd refer to Vandire's forces when I mentioned Sebastian Thor and the Age of Apostasy, when I actually meant Vandire's enemies - that "bunch of zealous but untrained men" which were the origin and the core of the Confederacy of Light.

ClockworkZion wrote:Oh, and as for the Orphan thing we've got an established incident where the daughter of a Rogue Trader ran away from home (so to speak) and joined a covenant of Sisters to become one. So there is precedence for women to become them in other ways it seems (it's from the first Arbites novel). [...] We're dragging in everything else under the sun and BL has been officially stated as just as canon as every other source, so I didn't see why not to bring novels into it.

Because we can either discuss GW's material, or we'll have to settle for each of us preferring different and unconnected sources. Yes, everything is equally "canon" in that it is not canon at all. The different books were not written with the intention to create a single consistent setting, which is why they will often contradict each other. For example, that orphan thing you were referring to is in blatant conflict with Codex fluff explicitly stating that every single Battle Sister is raised in the Schola from infancy - no exceptions.

So we will have to decide which source we are discussing, but we cannot just go the Lexicanum route and throw everything into a pot and expect it to tie into each other. It (mostly) works within some novel series that were written by a team of authors, and it (mostly) works with the various codices and rulebooks that were written by the team of GW game designers. But once you throw books from different authors together, expect a contradiction, because different people have different ideas, and 40k's artistic licence lets everything be equally "optional".

Me, I'm discussing the Adepta Sororitas based on GW's own writings. I can't expect anyone else to view the Sisters in the same light, but similarly I cannot be expected to change GW's rather consistent portrayal of this faction just because some random freelancer put out another new novel that fails to depict the Sisters the way they are described in the Codices. *coughMitchellcough*

And as far as I'm concerned, the same goes for anything else in the setting. The Horus Heresy authors can keep touting their Primarchs as immortal until they're blue in the face - I'll just keep pointing to the 6E rulebook that explicitly states they were not.

Anyways, I dunno if you've already stumbled upon this, but here I have collected a few statements from various GW people and BL novel authors to describe the value of "canon" in 40k.

ClockworkZion wrote:To keep the numbers reasonably low we worked off the following rules:
1% of the entire Imperium meets the very basic criteria to be considered for becoming a Sororitas.

This right there is the first mistake. 1% of the entire population of the Imperium fulfills the basic criteria?

Every 50th(!) human female in the Imperium just happens to be the daughter of an Imperial official that was orphaned at birth and happens to be genetically pure?!

No. The Imperium doesn't even have that many officials, let alone pregnant ones who give up their kids at birth.

The way it looks to me, a lot of posters here are trying to justify vastly inflated numbers by any means possible - not by looking at the numbers and hints actually provided by GW, but by arbitrarily deciding there need to be billions of Sisters and then thinking "how do we make this happen?" and then beginning to construct supposed evidence around this basis. I think I'm much more happy with my position as the Devil's Advocate - at least it results in my interpretation actually being reflected in the material I read.

Hollowman wrote:I don't think so. Orks spend all their time drinking, carousing and fighting too, but that does not make them human in any meaningful sense.

If you think that drinking, carousing and fighting are typically human habits, then of course it does.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/human

Hollowman wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Hollowman wrote:Marines gave a more constrained set of reactions - they don't respond the way humans do to a variety of things according to GW. The Sisters have a superior range of behavior and are more adaptable than the astartes

Not according to GW.

Not according to the fluff I have read on Space marines.

Your fluff on Space Marines included a line that Sisters have "a superior range of behavior"? Citation needed.

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:lets not forget lifting the back ends of APC's out of the mud one handed, or being immune unarmored to small arms, or immune with armor to anything but heavy weaponry their enemies may field.

"Against most small arms, the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st millennium."
- 2E C:AoD, Space Marine Power Armour

Perhaps they are immune unarmoured to small arms fire in FFG's movie-like Deathwatch RPG, or certain uberepic Black Library novels, but they are not immune in GW's tabletop, GW's Inquisitor RPG, or GW's Codex fluff.

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:Their muscles don't age at all

Citation needed.

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:The average life time of a marine is about 80-100 years on the dot due to being KIA. I don't think sisters live that long.....

Canoness Carmina would seem to disagree.
Not that I'm suggesting she is the norm or average. Just an example for how old they can get at least. And this is a Canoness, so add another ~30 years for climbing up the ranks, and another ~17 for Schola upbringing and novitiate = circa 145 years.

SisterSydney wrote:250 ceremonies a year x 500 Novices per ceremony = 125,000 new Sisters a year.

That is if you think the Ecclesiarch has nothing to do but initiating novices all the time. Each ceremony lasts an entire night - I'd expect the poor man to get some sleep every now and then, and let's not even talk about Ecclesiarchal conclaves, Senatorum sessions, etc.
This is the Space Pope we're talking about. Personally, I'd expect him to be busier with ... y'know, Space Church stuff, than mass-processing new Space Nuns every day.

Marines being hurt by small arms...........You seem to be a bit out of touch, normal human strongmen are basically immune to small arms due to sheer muscle density and volume. (it wont reach an organ and will get lodged in only the first 2-3 inches of straight muscle. There's a lot more muscle than that before the organs.
What do you mean citation needed? Name one marine who actually acts like he's 500+ years old instead of moving around like a superman in his prime? You cant do it can you?
I can give examples: All of the primarchs look like geezers but they only seem to get greater and greater feats. Calgar is a geezer. Logan is a geezer. Sidonus is a geezer. Azrael is a geezer. Moloc is a geezer. Every damn chapter master looks really old but is dramatically stronger than a younger marine.
That's a canoness by the way. Chapter masters live 400+ years in their position alone typically. Dante is probably far older than 1000 because similarily aged marines cant remember a time when he wasn't chapter master.

 Lynata wrote:

SisterSydney wrote:250 ceremonies a year x 500 Novices per ceremony = 125,000 new Sisters a year.

That is if you think the Ecclesiarch has nothing to do but initiating novices all the time. Each ceremony lasts an entire night - I'd expect the poor man to get some sleep every now and then, and let's not even talk about Ecclesiarchal conclaves, Senatorum sessions, etc.
This is the Space Pope we're talking about. Personally, I'd expect him to be busier with ... y'know, Space Church stuff, than mass-processing new Space Nuns every day.

Oh, I'm not saying the Ecclesiarch is up all night. The Sisters are, sure, but I imagine he rolls out of bed, gets his vestments on, goes out onto his balcony, and prays over them for half an hour, tops. (That's the spoilered bit in my post). It's the climactic moment of the most important day in a Sister's life and utterly forgettable routine for the Space Pope.

"But for me, it was Tuesday." Even for an Ecclesiarch who sincerely loves the Sisters and finds the ritual so inspiring he misses the days he doesn't do it, they're all going to blur together. For some Ecclesiarchs, it's just another fething pain in the ass before they can get to their real work.

Oh, and having bought Pretre's copy of the 2004 White Dwarf with the chapter-approved Zealots in it, I happened on this lovely little bit:

The exact number and size of these "Lesser Orders Militant" or "Orders Minoris" can only be guessed. It may be assumed that none are [sic] as large as any of the six "Greater" Orders, and some may be as small as only a hundred or so Sisters....
... the leaders of the Lesser Orders are, in theory at least, answerable to the leaders of each of the Greater Orders that formed them, but this structure has little practical meaning because of the size of the Imperium and the many years [of] travel in the Warp that separates the Lesser Orders from their parents.

White Dwarf 292/May 2004, page 78, right-hand column. (So this was the Witchhunters era, I think).

GW canon. Gotta love it. You can justify almost any argument from it -- just like the Bible. (I'm a practicing Christian, I know that as well as anyone...)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and here's another angle on the math:

Ignore all other "imperial servants" and just talk about the Imperial Guard, because they're the most likely to die.

Assume there are 10 billion Guards at any given time (a lowball estimate).
Assume 10% of them die per year. That's 1 billion.
Assume 10% of those leave behind orphans young enough to enter Schola. That's 100 million.
Assume 50% of those are girls. 50 million.
Assume 20% of those are "genetically pure." 10 million.
Assume 10% of those are Sisters material. 1 million.
Assume 10% of those make it through to full Battle Sister status. 100,000.
Assume they serve for an average of 10 years before death or disability. That's a steady state of 1 million Sisters galaxy-wide.

ClockworkZion wrote:Militias are defensive forces, reacting to emergencies and defending against invaders not being the main fighting faction in wars. But that's just my view on them.

Well, in a way they are defenders - defenders of the faith.

ClockworkZion wrote:I get what you're claiming, but let's be honest there is a lot from the BL books we're shirking that we bring up all the time. The stuff from Hammer and Anvil for example. Either we count all references or none of them.

Hey, I'm not using any non-GW material in my arguments. That was Troike (who I think has a more liberal stance regarding the fluff than my "conservative" attitude).

I've adopted some of their ideas into my personal interpretation of the setting, but to use those as "evidence" would obviously be very hypocritical of me.

ClockworkZion wrote:Officers OR adepts. And that includes officers in the Imperial Guard for instance. How many of those die EVERY DAY again?

Lots, but not many if we look at the percentages again.

If we're doing a "cross-section" of the Imperial populace and take 100 people, how many of those will be officers of the Imperial Guard (considering that there's not as much IG as there are PDF), how many will be members of an Adeptus, and how many will be simple PDF troopers, farmhands, labourers, slaves, mutants, psykers, sailors, merchants, Tech-Priests, mercenaries, criminals, ... the list goes on. You see what I mean.

ClockworkZion wrote:That would mean the Imperium only has only a few hundred thousand Officers and Adepts.

No, it doesn't. The vast majority of officers and adepts will either have no children at all, or children who grow up with relatives (keeping in mind that IG officers are recruited from a planet's nobility), or even children who actually DO end up in the Schola but only when they were not infants anymore.

The simple condition that induction happens at infancy alone already is a huge limitation, I think.

And that's before we consider ridiculously high physical and mental requirements that look like a mixture of the Navy SEALs and a Buddhist monk.

Though again, I don't even think that this may be the chief reason for low numbers. I speculate that it's primarily a political decision which in turn influences a given millennium's official membership requirements. Meaning, when the Orders are considered at near full strength, they'll only accept a ludicrously small amount of novices, but when large combat casualties or the founding of a new Minor Order have created an opening of sorts they may well relax them to fill up their numbers.

TheSaintofKillers wrote:Marines being hurt by small arms...........You seem to be a bit out of touch, normal human strongmen are basically immune to small arms due to sheer muscle density and volume. (it wont reach an organ and will get lodged in only the first 2-3 inches of straight muscle. There's a lot more muscle than that before the organs.

#1 I'm merely repeating what Games Workshop has written.
#2 Or maybe you are a bit out of touch with 40k, but "small arms" in the setting doesn't refer to contemporary 9mm Berettas. We're talking scifi lasguns that punch through power armour.

TheSaintofKillers wrote:What do you mean citation needed? Name one marine who actually acts like he's 500+ years old instead of moving around like a superman in his prime?

That's not how it works. You make a claim, you need to back it up. Do you see me running around stating that Battle Sisters are immortal and cannot die of old age just because you couldn't find an example?

TheSaintofKillers wrote:I can give examples: All of the primarchs look like geezers but they only seem to get greater and greater feats. Calgar is a geezer. Logan is a geezer. Sidonus is a geezer. Azrael is a geezer. Moloc is a geezer. Every damn chapter master looks really old but is dramatically stronger than a younger marine.

Oh, the Black Library Horus Heresy novel series with its epic fiction?

"Although long-lived, the Primarchs were not immortal, but it is hard to ascertain fact from the legends that surround such god-like beings. Certainly, each spearheaded a host of victories and heroic deeds across the galaxy, leaving behind innumerable deeds of mythic proportions. Who knows if Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves, really did best a Cyclopean Draxbeast single-handedly? And if Ferrus Magnus didn't force the Iron Pyramids of Medusa, then who did?
One by one, they disappear from the annals of history, the last of their kind reputedly disappearing by M32. Whether the many extraordinary and sometimes contradictory accounts told about the Primarchs hold any truth or are just apocryphal tales, they are preserved in the lore of each Space Marine Chapter."
- 6E Rulebook, p.186

Thanks, I think I'll stick with the information about the Imperium in M41 as that lore is more clear and somewhat less muddled by myth and legend - and that's got to say something!

TheSaintofKillers wrote:That's a canoness by the way.

That's what I said.

TheSaintofKillers wrote:Chapter masters live 400+ years in their position alone typically. Dante is probably far older than 1000 because similarily aged marines cant remember a time when he wasn't chapter master.

"With their genetically enhanced bodies, Space Marines live extended lifetimes - if they do not fall in battle, they can easily life two to three times longer than a normal man, and sometimes far longer. [...] Commander Dante is said to be 1100 standard Terran years of age and his vast service record of victories fills entire libraries with material."
- 6E Rulebook, p.181

"Chaplain Cassius is the oldest active member of the Ultramarines Chapter. What little of his skin can be seen amid the life-sustaining bionics is gnarled and battle-scarred, and his one good eye burns with unfulfilled vengeance. Though Cassius is close on four centuries of age, his arm remains strong, his aim remains true and his sturdy presence within the Ultramarines battlelines fills the hearts of his younger brethren with pride and valour. [...] Cassius can recall tales of the first Tyrannic War when he fought alongside Malneus Calgar (always "young Calgar" to Cassius) to purge Ultramar of the horrific denizens of Hive Fleet Behemoth."
- 5E C:SM, p.87

SisterSydney wrote:Oh, and having bought Pretre's copy of the 2004 White Dwarf with the chapter-approved Zealots in it, I happened on this lovely little bit: [...] White Dwarf 292/May 2004, page 78, right-hand column. (So this was the Witchhunters era, I think).

That's the Liber Sororitas, right? Good thing you got it, it's an excellent resource that I'd almost deem a must-have for any fan of the Sisters.

Um, excuse me for asking, but were you trying to make an argument from this bit? Either way, I certainly agree about the wide range of interpretations that seems to go with most of GW's material, "working as intended" I guess. Just look at the Primarch bit from the rulebook I quoted above - they don't say "it's as they say in the novels", but neither do they outright call everything a lie (well, except from individual contradictions such as the immortal bit), they literally say: "maybe".

SisterSydney wrote:Assume there are 10 billion Guards at any given time (a lowball estimate).

Officers?

SisterSydney wrote:Assume 10% of those leave behind orphans young enough to enter Schola.

How does that even work? These progena are recruited "from infancy". Induction into the Schola must almost happen simultaneously with the parents' death.

I think this is actually the least likely path to become a Sororitas - it seems much more possible to have a pregnant adept or IG officer, or an adept or IG officer who has a pregnant wife, opt to surrender their child to the Imperium because they can't deal with the child as it'd interfere with their duty. The 2E SoB Codex, for example, mentioned that the parents do not necessarily have to die for a child to become eligible for Schola induction, and provided as an example Imperial adepts posted to a faraway world where the kid couldn't accompany them.
Then you'd have the Ecclesiarchy stand ready to accept the child as soon as it is born = possible SoB material. If they make it through tests and training.

SisterSydney wrote:Assume 10% of those are Sisters material.

That's like saying 10% of all progena could achieve the extreme physical and mental requirements asked of potential novices. I think their training is more grueling, though this is mere speculation. 10%, in an educational facility whose majority of students end up being civilian scribes, just sounds like a lot. You'd get 10% soldiers in general, maybe, or 10% clerics. But how many of those would be "good enough" to become Commissars and Storm Troopers? How many Sororitas?

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:Militias are defensive forces, reacting to emergencies and defending against invaders not being the main fighting faction in wars. But that's just my view on them.

Well, in a way they are defenders - defenders of the faith.

ClockworkZion wrote:I get what you're claiming, but let's be honest there is a lot from the BL books we're shirking that we bring up all the time. The stuff from Hammer and Anvil for example. Either we count all references or none of them.

Hey, I'm not using any non-GW material in my arguments. That was Troike (who I think has a more liberal stance regarding the fluff than my "conservative" attitude).

I've adopted some of their ideas into my personal interpretation of the setting, but to use those as "evidence" would obviously be very hypocritical of me.

ClockworkZion wrote:Officers OR adepts. And that includes officers in the Imperial Guard for instance. How many of those die EVERY DAY again?

Lots, but not many if we look at the percentages again.

If we're doing a "cross-section" of the Imperial populace and take 100 people, how many of those will be officers of the Imperial Guard (considering that there's not as much IG as there are PDF), how many will be members of an Adeptus, and how many will be simple PDF troopers, farmhands, labourers, slaves, mutants, psykers, sailors, merchants, Tech-Priests, mercenaries, criminals, ... the list goes on. You see what I mean.

ClockworkZion wrote:That would mean the Imperium only has only a few hundred thousand Officers and Adepts.

No, it doesn't. The vast majority of officers and adepts will either have no children at all, or children who grow up with relatives (keeping in mind that IG officers are recruited from a planet's nobility), or even children who actually DO end up in the Schola but only when they were not infants anymore.

The simple condition that induction happens at infancy alone already is a huge limitation, I think.

And that's before we consider ridiculously high physical and mental requirements that look like a mixture of the Navy SEALs and a Buddhist monk.

Though again, I don't even think that this may be the chief reason for low numbers. I speculate that it's primarily a political decision which in turn influences a given millennium's official membership requirements. Meaning, when the Orders are considered at near full strength, they'll only accept a ludicrously small amount of novices, but when large combat casualties or the founding of a new Minor Order have created an opening of sorts they may well relax them to fill up their numbers.

TheSaintofKillers wrote:Marines being hurt by small arms...........You seem to be a bit out of touch, normal human strongmen are basically immune to small arms due to sheer muscle density and volume. (it wont reach an organ and will get lodged in only the first 2-3 inches of straight muscle. There's a lot more muscle than that before the organs.

#1 I'm merely repeating what Games Workshop has written.
#2 Or maybe you are a bit out of touch with 40k, but "small arms" in the setting doesn't refer to contemporary 9mm Berettas. We're talking scifi lasguns that punch through power armour.

TheSaintofKillers wrote:What do you mean citation needed? Name one marine who actually acts like he's 500+ years old instead of moving around like a superman in his prime?

That's not how it works. You make a claim, you need to back it up. Do you see me running around stating that Battle Sisters are immortal and cannot die of old age just because you couldn't find an example?

TheSaintofKillers wrote:I can give examples: All of the primarchs look like geezers but they only seem to get greater and greater feats. Calgar is a geezer. Logan is a geezer. Sidonus is a geezer. Azrael is a geezer. Moloc is a geezer. Every damn chapter master looks really old but is dramatically stronger than a younger marine.

Oh, the Black Library Horus Heresy novel series with its epic fiction?

"Although long-lived, the Primarchs were not immortal, but it is hard to ascertain fact from the legends that surround such god-like beings. Certainly, each spearheaded a host of victories and heroic deeds across the galaxy, leaving behind innumerable deeds of mythic proportions. Who knows if Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves, really did best a Cyclopean Draxbeast single-handedly? And if Ferrus Magnus didn't force the Iron Pyramids of Medusa, then who did?
One by one, they disappear from the annals of history, the last of their kind reputedly disappearing by M32. Whether the many extraordinary and sometimes contradictory accounts told about the Primarchs hold any truth or are just apocryphal tales, they are preserved in the lore of each Space Marine Chapter."
- 6E Rulebook, p.186

Thanks, I think I'll stick with the information about the Imperium in M41 as that lore is more clear and somewhat less muddled by myth and legend - and that's got to say something!

TheSaintofKillers wrote:That's a canoness by the way.

That's what I said.

TheSaintofKillers wrote:Chapter masters live 400+ years in their position alone typically. Dante is probably far older than 1000 because similarily aged marines cant remember a time when he wasn't chapter master.

"With their genetically enhanced bodies, Space Marines live extended lifetimes - if they do not fall in battle, they can easily life two to three times longer than a normal man, and sometimes far longer. [...] Commander Dante is said to be 1100 standard Terran years of age and his vast service record of victories fills entire libraries with material."
- 6E Rulebook, p.181

"Chaplain Cassius is the oldest active member of the Ultramarines Chapter. What little of his skin can be seen amid the life-sustaining bionics is gnarled and battle-scarred, and his one good eye burns with unfulfilled vengeance. Though Cassius is close on four centuries of age, his arm remains strong, his aim remains true and his sturdy presence within the Ultramarines battlelines fills the hearts of his younger brethren with pride and valour. [...] Cassius can recall tales of the first Tyrannic War when he fought alongside Malneus Calgar (always "young Calgar" to Cassius) to purge Ultramar of the horrific denizens of Hive Fleet Behemoth."
- 5E C:SM, p.87

SisterSydney wrote:Oh, and having bought Pretre's copy of the 2004 White Dwarf with the chapter-approved Zealots in it, I happened on this lovely little bit: [...] White Dwarf 292/May 2004, page 78, right-hand column. (So this was the Witchhunters era, I think).

That's the Liber Sororitas, right? Good thing you got it, it's an excellent resource that I'd almost deem a must-have for any fan of the Sisters.

Um, excuse me for asking, but were you trying to make an argument from this bit? Either way, I certainly agree about the wide range of interpretations that seems to go with most of GW's material, "working as intended" I guess. Just look at the Primarch bit from the rulebook I quoted above - they don't say "it's as they say in the novels", but neither do they outright call everything a lie (well, except from individual contradictions such as the immortal bit), they literally say: "maybe".

That's not what the actual people in charge of fluff say. The main mass of fluff comes from black library which is equally as canon as the codexes. A lasgun is an assault weapon (think m16). Not a small arm (autopistol), and it wont do anything to a marine in any source that treats them with respect. That's not how it works? I didn't make a claim, and I preceded to provide examples because I felt like it and you couldn't give any to the contrary.
I was talking about average life span, and a canoness isn't exactly normal in her position is she?
I honestly expect sisters unarmored to shrug off small arms (9mm) due to sheer toughness and pain thresholds, like a Sin City character. Marines? they wont get through the skin.

Alright, I decided to stop with the back and forth on recruitment and focus on only what the fluff I can find tells us:

2nd Edition codex (page 33):

The Scholera is responsible for the care and education of orphans of Imperial Servants. From the favoured sons of an Imperial Guard colonel to the children of a scribe posted to a distant world, the Scholera cares for them all."

Here we see that the Scholeras only accept orphans of anyone who serves the Imperium directly.

By the time a Progena reaches early adolescence they will have displayed skills in a certain direction and their tutelage to the age of sixteen will focus on these talents and hone the pupil to a career in one of the Imperial organizations...Female Progena may well be enterted into the Adepta Sororitas."

So from this and the previous bit we can see that to be a Sister of Battle the stringent standards were: 1) be an orphan of anyone who served the Imperium, 2) be a girl, 3) display certain skills/attributes that made you seem like a good fit (pray a lot?). Not really hard stuff there.

3rd Edition codex (page 34, Battle Sisters fluff):

"...orphans raised by the Scholera Progenium, the Battle Sisters are well disciplined and highly devoted to the Emperor."

Nothing here that outright contradicts the previous fluff, but an omission to being the child of a servant of the Imperium is noticeable.

5th Edition WD Codex (Battle Sisters fluff):

Every Battle Sisters is an orphan raised from birth..."

Again, no mentioning of who the parents have to be, only that their and orphan "from birth". I'm almost guessing the Scholera is taking the infants from warzones whose parents can't be found/identified/whatever.

6th Edition Rulebook (page 195):

"The troops of this devout Sisterhood are raised from infancy..."

Now we lack the claim that their orphans as well. This seems to suggest a possibility that any girl can be given to the Scholera to become a Sister of Battle. And considering the cultist nature of the Imperial Creed I can actually see this happening on some worlds. Especially Shrine Worlds.

So the conclusion that I can take from this is the following:

Sisters don't have to be orphans nor do the have to be the children of Imperial Servants. It seems, at least with what little we have to go off of, that every writer who has tackled them has a different idea on how exactly the Sisters are trained and chosen and the most recent iteration mentions neither orphans or being the children of Imperial Servants.

Now can this change again? Naturally, but I think for the time being the recruit pool may be a touch bit bigger than we were thinking as we were mashing things together across codexes regardless of differences in writers, focus and intent (much like the complaint earlier about mashing BL books in with codexes).

Either way, I'm sticking by my assessment of the numbers until GW does a better job explaining how there are so few Sisters without their being problems with them being spread so thin.

It occurs to me that the seeming problem with the "official" background number, if it was ever given, could easily be attributed to the various writers lacking a sense of scale.

But still, with 21,000 Battle Sisters, that's the equivalent of 21 loyalist Space Marine Codex Chapters. Arguably the Marines get called on more often, and have a broader range of responsibilities, which is why they'd have roughly 50x the numbers of the Sisters of Battle. Space Marine Chapters seem to have less stringent recruitment requirements, since they can recruit from their choice of the young men on their recruitment world or system, rather than relying on their recruits having been raised and indoctrinated by a particular organization, but their numbers are limited by the Codex Astartes rather than a lack of candidates to choose from.

So I'd have to agree that the main limiting factors for the Sororitas' numbers would be the small selection of properly indoctrinated candidates, and (probably) wanting to keep the Ecclesiarchy's militant arm small enough that no one gets overly concerned about a possible second Vandire (though from what I've read in this thread, the Sisters seem capable of taking care of such things before they get to that point.) That last one is pretty much exactly why the Space Marines were split up into Chapters, if you replace Vandire with Horus.

Seriously, can you imagine if the Sisters of Battle outnumbered the Space Marines 10,000 to 1? Wouldn't that make you mildly uneasy about the Ecclesiarch going mad with power if you were one of the other High Lords of Terra?

 Pouncey wrote:
It occurs to me that the seeming problem with the "official" background number, if it was ever given, could easily be attributed to the various writers lacking a sense of scale.

This is essentially the problem with all fiction forever.

But still, with 21,000 Battle Sisters, that's the equivalent of 21 loyalist Space Marine Codex Chapters. Arguably the Marines get called on more often, and have a broader range of responsibilities, which is why they'd have roughly 50x the numbers of the Sisters of Battle. Space Marine Chapters seem to have less stringent recruitment requirements, since they can recruit from their choice of the young men on their recruitment world or system, rather than relying on their recruits having been raised and indoctrinated by a particular organization, but their numbers are limited by the Codex Astartes rather than a lack of candidates to choose from.

So I'd have to agree that the main limiting factors for the Sororitas' numbers would be the small selection of properly indoctrinated candidates, and (probably) wanting to keep the Ecclesiarchy's militant arm small enough that no one gets overly concerned about a possible second Vandire (though from what I've read in this thread, the Sisters seem capable of taking care of such things before they get to that point.) That last one is pretty much exactly why the Space Marines were split up into Chapters, if you replace Vandire with Horus.

Seriously, can you imagine if the Sisters of Battle outnumbered the Space Marines 10,000 to 1? Wouldn't that make you mildly uneasy about the Ecclesiarch going mad with power if you were one of the other High Lords of Terra?

With the rampant paranoia, constant threat of assassination, and constant threat of assassination, an army of space nuns who could easily be wiped out by the IG might not be a top priority.

 xole wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
It occurs to me that the seeming problem with the "official" background number, if it was ever given, could easily be attributed to the various writers lacking a sense of scale.

This is essentially the problem with all fiction forever.

But still, with 21,000 Battle Sisters, that's the equivalent of 21 loyalist Space Marine Codex Chapters. Arguably the Marines get called on more often, and have a broader range of responsibilities, which is why they'd have roughly 50x the numbers of the Sisters of Battle. Space Marine Chapters seem to have less stringent recruitment requirements, since they can recruit from their choice of the young men on their recruitment world or system, rather than relying on their recruits having been raised and indoctrinated by a particular organization, but their numbers are limited by the Codex Astartes rather than a lack of candidates to choose from.

So I'd have to agree that the main limiting factors for the Sororitas' numbers would be the small selection of properly indoctrinated candidates, and (probably) wanting to keep the Ecclesiarchy's militant arm small enough that no one gets overly concerned about a possible second Vandire (though from what I've read in this thread, the Sisters seem capable of taking care of such things before they get to that point.) That last one is pretty much exactly why the Space Marines were split up into Chapters, if you replace Vandire with Horus.

Seriously, can you imagine if the Sisters of Battle outnumbered the Space Marines 10,000 to 1? Wouldn't that make you mildly uneasy about the Ecclesiarch going mad with power if you were one of the other High Lords of Terra?

With the rampant paranoia, constant threat of assassination, and constant threat of assassination, an army of space nuns who could easily be wiped out by the IG might not be a top priority.

Well, yeah, they're insignificant now. That's kinda the thing I meant. No one worries about the Ecclesiarch going mad with power and somehow having the Sororitas all follow him instead of following what's-her-name's example and shooting him in the head right away, because even if it did happen, it wouldn't get too far - though arguably, Vandire only had 10,000 Brides of the Emperor (half the number of Sisters of Battle currently estimated to exist) and managed a hell of a civil war, so, yeah.

But there was an estimate on the previous page about a more realistic number of Sororitas in comparison to the size of the Imperium, placing it at a theoretical 10 billion (roughly 10,000 per planet). With the equivalent of 10 Space Marine Codex Chapters occupying each planet in the Imperium, all under the control of the Ecclesiarchy... Yeah, it might be cause for worry.

TheSaintofKillers wrote:That's not what the actual people in charge of fluff say. The main mass of fluff comes from black library which is equally as canon as the codexes.

And it is contradictory, meaning we have to choose what we adhere to. I stick to GW's own writing. You don't have to, but that's how *I* roll. To me, GW's own fluff (the "main fluff" in that it is the foundation upon which anything else is built on) makes for a better setting, specifically because of such details as it not quite raising the Space Marines to even loftier position where I'd expect them to clear out the Eye of Terror on their own, and specifically because they are vulnerable "even" against enemies from within the Imperium. I like vulnerabilities in whatever stuff I read; it makes a setting feel more realistic.

TheSaintofKillers wrote:A lasgun is an assault weapon (think m16). Not a small arm (autopistol), and it wont do anything to a marine in any source that treats them with respect.

That interpretation of "respect" obviously being a matter of preferences.

Lasguns, laspistols, laspistols all do equal damage in the TT and GW's Inquisitor RPG, and the Codex quote still stands. Also, the term small arms would seem to include assault rifles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_arms

TheSaintofKillers wrote:That's not how it works? I didn't make a claim, and I preceded to provide examples because I felt like it and you couldn't give any to the contrary.

You claimed that "their muscles don't age at all", hence my "citation needed". Assumptions are not facts.

But since our interpretations may simply be different because we're working off different material, it may well be a topic not even worth argueing about. It has little to do with the subject at hand, and we may never agree upon a result here anyways.

TheSaintofKillers wrote:I was talking about average life span, and a canoness isn't exactly normal in her position is she?

Well, unfortunately we don't have any information on average life spans on either Space Marines or Battle Sisters, just individual examples which are not very good to work with aside from defining a minimum range of possibilities.

But to address your concerns, no, I'm not saying that the life span of the average Sister would be equal to that of the average Marine, though it'd depend heavily on the Order. Comparing the Major Orders Militant to the Astartes Chapters, the Sisters both seem to see more combat (and are thus more often exposed to risk) and are less likely to survive deployment, so ... yeah.

TheSaintofKillers wrote:I honestly expect sisters unarmored to shrug off small arms (9mm) due to sheer toughness and pain thresholds, like a Sin City character. Marines? they wont get through the skin.

Contemporary RL Earth small arms? Maybe, if we're talking "shrugging off" as in "ignoring, but still being injured", and obviously only if they don't hit a vital area. 40k small arms tend to be more dangerous, though the power armour would of course take some of the damage out of a hit.
Anyways, I think the Inquisitor game gave a good representation of how it works - with these weapons causing grievous injuries to both Marines as well as normal humans. It's just that the Marine could take several of those injuries and still continue to function, whereas a human is notably more affected. Ultimately, it's just a couple more shots for the Astartes too, though...

And I'm not sure where you're taking this toughness of Marine skin from. It's not part of GW's description of the changes wrought upon a Space Marine, so I'm going to assume it's some Black Library novel? Going by the Index Astartes, what makes the Marines more robust is chiefly the adamantium reinforcement of their bones, followed by the dense muscle tissue. When they are injured, they also stop bleeding all by themselves (naturally dependent on the size of the wound). The subdermal Black Carapace implant may provide a minimum of additional protection, if only in combination with the other factors (as "a sheet of plastic" doesn't sound very tough on its own, and anyprotection would merely be an unintentional side-effect).

So much for how Space Marines work in Lynata's world, anyways. If you're curious, here is an online backup of the Index Astartes article that describes Marine creation and implantation, as printed in White Dwarf issue #247.

ClockworkZion wrote:Sisters don't have to be orphans nor do the have to be the children of Imperial Servants. It seems, at least with what little we have to go off of, that every writer who has tackled them has a different idea on how exactly the Sisters are trained and chosen and the most recent iteration mentions neither orphans or being the children of Imperial Servants.

Whoah there. You're discarding 90% of GW's SoB fluff here, just to justify higher numbers? Okay, that's the point where we'll just have to agree to disagree.

GW doesn't seem to work like you suggest:

"With this Codex, we've aimed to remain faithful to the rich history of the Sisters of Battle and the Ecclesiarchy, but we've also aimed to move the story on – not by contradicting anything previously published but by expanding the background in directions not yet explored."
- WD #292, 3E Codex designer's notes

ClockworkZion wrote:Either way, I'm sticking by my assessment of the numbers until GW does a better job explaining how there are so few Sisters without their being problems with them being spread so thin.

Who says there are no problems? I'm sure the Sisters would have liked to be at Bladen to protect that Cathedral, and I'm sure they would have liked to have more troops on Armageddon and in the Cadian sector as well.

Their low numbers are the perfect explanation for why we don't see more of them in the fluff. As much as this is (out-of-universe) more likely a case of GW lacking interest in publishing SoB material, given how detailed certain much smaller Marine Chapters' exploits are, it is a neat side-effect - and it perfectly explains the low numbers of Sisters even where GW remembered them.



But I guess we pretty much exhausted that debate by now as we've made all our arguments and are stuck on key issues where neither side is going to relent. Still, it was an interesting discussion, and enjoyable due to the civility.

xole wrote:With the rampant paranoia, constant threat of assassination, and constant threat of assassination, an army of space nuns who could easily be wiped out by the IG might not be a top priority.

Oh, you mean the same IG that consists of soldiers faithful to the Imperial Creed, that have an Ecclesiarchy Confessor attached to every single regiment, and who occasionally join an Ecclesiarchal War of Faith without orders from their higher-ups?

GW's own writing is contradictory, too. Like the hilarious mistake of conveniently forgetting to include half of the major orders in the fifth edition rulebook. It's like whoever wrote it was some dyslexic who only read half the page on sisters orders and then said "meh, good enough for govvit work I say" then went to type a paragraph about the three orders he read.

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:Sisters don't have to be orphans nor do the have to be the children of Imperial Servants. It seems, at least with what little we have to go off of, that every writer who has tackled them has a different idea on how exactly the Sisters are trained and chosen and the most recent iteration mentions neither orphans or being the children of Imperial Servants.

Whoah there. You're discarding 90% of GW's SoB fluff here, just to justify higher numbers? Okay, that's the point where we'll just have to agree to disagree.

No, I was discarding the fluff because GW seems to be doing so themselves. It's with that fluff that they still have those low numbers anyways. I was just highlighting the differences between the editions and how they presented the fluff on where Sisters come from.

And my numbers were just run as a kind of experiment. We can go smaller (say we start with a base of only black haired women for instance) but the fact remains that even only taking in 2nd Edition's fluff (girl + orphaned child of someone who worked for the Imperium in some capacity) you have a ridiculously large selection pool that isn't being tapped for reasons never really explained. Either that or it is being tapped and the Imperium goes through Sisters like a tissues at a convention of people with the flu.

 Lynata wrote:
GW doesn't seem to work like you suggest:

"With this Codex, we've aimed to remain faithful to the rich history of the Sisters of Battle and the Ecclesiarchy, but we've also aimed to move the story on – not by contradicting anything previously published but by expanding the background in directions not yet explored."
- WD #292, 3E Codex designer's notes

Yeah, and 3rd didn't directly contradict anything that 2nd had. That was 3 editions and a whole bunch of devs ago. Can we honestly claim that the team we have now see it the same way? I mean they did explicitly kill Praxedes, something that hadn't been done in the past afterall, so I think that's grounds to consider the fact that they're more willing to change and adjust things.

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:Either way, I'm sticking by my assessment of the numbers until GW does a better job explaining how there are so few Sisters without their being problems with them being spread so thin.

Who says there are no problems? I'm sure the Sisters would have liked to be at Bladen to protect that Cathedral, and I'm sure they would have liked to have more troops on Armageddon and in the Cadian sector as well.

Their low numbers are the perfect explanation for why we don't see more of them in the fluff. As much as this is (out-of-universe) more likely a case of GW lacking interest in publishing SoB material, given how detailed certain much smaller Marine Chapters' exploits are, it is a neat side-effect - and it perfectly explains the low numbers of Sisters even where GW remembered them.

The low numbers are a BS reason to not spend time building them up more in the fluff and background when they're so integrated into the Imperium. It's lazy writing and shows a lack of a proper sense of scale. If they're going to artificially set the numbers so low they need to take the time to fully justify why so it doesn't look so silly then explain why Sisters being outnumbered by Space Marines isn't exactly an issue with their many duties.

For the record, going back through things the duties of the various Sororitas include:
Protecting Ecclesiarchy Relics
Portecting Ecclesiarchy Holy Sites
Protecting Churches
Bringing the Imperial Creed to newly found/rediscovered worlds
Leading Wars of Faith
Guarding Pilgrim ships and routes
Assisting the Ordos Hereticus
Persecuting Heretics
Defending Shrine Worlds
Training new Sisters
Serving as a Field Hospital for the Imperial Guard
Running clinics for the poor
Brokering the various deals that are done between noble families
Arranging marriages between various noble families
Policing the Ecclesiarchy to keep it in check
Policing the various organizations of the Imperium as a constant watchdog against Heresy
Eradicating Space Marine chapters
Participating in major conflicts (Armageddon, the 13th Black Crusade)
Translating messages for various dialects of Gothic
Translating xeno writing and languages

And I'm sure I'm missing things in there too. But the fact is the more we keep adding to the pile of stuff they do, the harder it is to accept the studio's fluff on this one.

 Lynata wrote:

Spoiler:

But I guess we pretty much exhausted that debate by now as we've made all our arguments and are stuck on key issues where neither side is going to relent. Still, it was an interesting discussion, and enjoyable due to the civility.

That's fair. I'm not trying to browbeat anyone to my side of things, I was just trying to highlight my issues with the studio fluff in terms of organizational matters for the Sisters and how I felt it could be improved.

ClockworkZion wrote:Yeah, and 3rd didn't directly contradict anything that 2nd had. That was 3 editions and a whole bunch of devs ago. Can we honestly claim that the team we have now see it the same way?

Can we claim that they don't?
I'll have to face that "crisis of faith" when they actually do contradict the lower numbers or the restricted recruitment, but so far I'm not seeing the "retcon".

I am still mad about Praxedes tho. Even when one could, in theory, argue it away as a difference between propaganda and fact, it annoys me to no end that such an awesome legend would just get discarded like that. The new writing doesn't add anything to the setting aside from causing me to rage on the 5E "Codex" in terms of fluff as well as rules.

ClockworkZion wrote:If they're going to artificially set the numbers so low they need to take the time to fully justify why so it doesn't look so silly then explain why Sisters being outnumbered by Space Marines isn't exactly an issue with their many duties.

Alright. Using your list I will add my own remarks in italics:

Protecting some Ecclesiarchy Relics
Portecting some Ecclesiarchy Holy Sites
Protecting some Churches
Bringing the Imperial Creed to occasionally newly found/rediscovered worlds as part of the Non-Militant Orders Sabine, or by attaching a few bodyguards to a cleric
Leading Wars of Faith by sending detachments from the Major Orders to serve as a spearhead for other forces to rally around
Guarding some Pilgrim ships and routes
Occasionally assisting the Ordos Hereticus
Occasionally Persecuting Heretics, often as part of the aforementioned collaboration with the Ordo Hereticus
Defending Shrine Worlds by standing ready to despatch a force whenever an emergency occurs
Training new Sisters which is done by the Orders Famulous
Serving as a Field Hospital for the Imperial Guard which is done by the Orders Hospitaller, who also do not service any and every IG regiment
Running clinics for the poor which does not seem to happen in GW's own material, just BL novels
Brokering some of the various deals that are done between noble families which is done by the Orders Famulous
Arranging some marriages between various noble families, also done by the Orders Famulous
Policing the Ecclesiarchy to keep it in check as part of the already-mentioned task of assisting the Ordo Hereticus
Policing the various organizations of the Imperium as a constant watchdog against Heresy as part of the already-mentioned task of assisting the Ordo Hereticus
Eradicating Space Marine chapters which admittedly doesn't happen that often
Participating in major conflicts (Armageddon, the 13th Black Crusade) where you had about 1 Battle Sister for every 20 Space Marines present
Translating messages for various dialects of Gothic which is done by the Orders Dialogous
Translating xeno writing and languages which is done by the Orders Dialogous

Your list seems rather inflated by listing a lot of stuff twice or thrice (or even four times - e.g. defending relics, holy sites, churches AND shrine worlds) that could have been lumped into a single thing (e.g. defending holy sites), and it is obviously not just about the Battle Sisters.

Are we now talking about the numbers of Adepta Sororitas as a whole? Because that's an entirely different topic, and something where I'd be much more open about discussion something like a million or more.

And to reiterate, I don't see the problem with so many tasks specifically because they won't be doing all of them simultaneously and/or with the entirety of their Sisters. The Major Orders are active in several warzones simultaneously because they have the numbers and the mobility, whereas Codex fluff even specifically points out that the Inquisitors prefer the Minor Orders for OH business because their bases are more spread-out and thus able to faster respond to local matters than calling in a ship from, say, Ophelia VII. Your average Minor Order won't go around torching random heretics day and night - the clergy and the civilian zealots wouldn't have anything left to do if it were like that.
The daily schedule of a Battle Sister consists of training and prayer, occasionally interrupted by a mission - which could be anything from accompanying a pilgrim transport to executing an apostate Cardinal to burning a few mutants. It all depends on the day.

I mean, it's not like we see the Space Marines never being at home, and there's certainly enough evil stuff to fight. One could also look to the Orders Militant' historical example, the various religious knightly orders in medieval times.

If we'd aim for a number of Battle Sisters truly able to deal with any heretic anywhere, we'd need as many Sisters as there are Guardsmen, if not more. Part of the setting's main theme is that there are never enough Imperial troops to truly win, regardless of whether we'd be talking Marines or Sisters. And even the Guardsmen are merely "holding the line".

ClockworkZion wrote:
The low numbers are a BS reason to not spend time building them up more in the fluff and background when they're so integrated into the Imperium. It's lazy writing and shows a lack of a proper sense of scale.

Now that's a statement I can get behind. GW being stupid is something I can almost always agree with.

Just to throw in my two cents into the numbers issue, I think I'd be much more accepting of the current "low-ish" numbers if it was emphasised that only very particular, very special people were picked to become SoBs, and that there were various logistical issues on top of that. More or less what Lynata has been saying throughout. The problem, it seems, is that GW's studio fluff does not emphasise this so much. As Zion pointed out, it seems to have become an increasingly less exclusive club every codex, with the latest codex only listing only being an orphan as the prerequisite. So it seems weird that they're so few. But if they really underlined how much of an exclusive organisation the Orders Militant is, then it would make substantially more sense, I think. Maybe not complete sense, but still much more sense.

Personally, I'm predicting that a new codex would be rather heavy with the fluff, being a proper, full-sized codex without the Sisters sharing with anybody, so maybe it'll have some good insight into the matter.

 Lynata wrote:
Hey, I'm not using any non-GW material in my arguments. That was Troike (who I think has a more liberal stance regarding the fluff than my "conservative" attitude)

In a way. My stance is that I'll accept non-studio stuff if it lines up with the studio canon, but if a piece of third-party thing doesn't match up (or just elements of it) then I'll disregard it as canon (or the offending elements).

 Pouncey wrote:
No one worries about the Ecclesiarch going mad with power and somehow having the Sororitas all follow him instead of following what's-her-name's example and shooting him in the head right away

Alicia Dominica. And yeah, the Sororitas are very much on-guard for that sort of thing these days. The Order of the Valorous Heart especially. To an extreme degree, even for SoBs.

Oh damn. Now I want to paint Valorous Heart Sisters instead of Ebon Chalice Sisters for my next army.

Troike wrote:In a way. My stance is that I'll accept non-studio stuff if it lines up with the studio canon, but if a piece of third-party thing doesn't match up (or just elements of it) then I'll disregard it as canon (or the offending elements).

Oh, exactly how my "private" interpretation works.

The way the franchise works unfortunately makes it really tough to discuss the fluff. GW's stance that everything is equally valid (or invalid) means that we have little in terms of a common base. When I'm discussing fluff, I tend to do so with limitation to GW studio material as that, I think, still comes closest to it. Even 3rd party additions that may match up in one's mind are a matter of interpretation, and even studio material alone is debated, as we can see here.

It's not easy.

If you're having fun, then the original design of 40k is being fulfilled.

If you're not, blame GW.

Everyone wins.

(Also, headcanon is the only one that counts. Some people truly believe the only unbalanced codex in current 40k is DA, and all the rest are good, but they have fun)

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:Yeah, and 3rd didn't directly contradict anything that 2nd had. That was 3 editions and a whole bunch of devs ago. Can we honestly claim that the team we have now see it the same way?

Can we claim that they don't?
I'll have to face that "crisis of faith" when they actually do contradict the lower numbers or the restricted recruitment, but so far I'm not seeing the "retcon".

Praxedes proves that they are willing to change fluff rather nicely. Oh and Jaconus isn't dead now, Celestine has no references to being nuked (and is now 500% more miraculous than before). I'm sure I can find more if I really tried.

 Lynata wrote:
I am still mad about Praxedes tho. Even when one could, in theory, argue it away as a difference between propaganda and fact, it annoys me to no end that such an awesome legend would just get discarded like that. The new writing doesn't add anything to the setting aside from causing me to rage on the 5E "Codex" in terms of fluff as well as rules.

What about our merry excursion to a Daemon infested world?

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:If they're going to artificially set the numbers so low they need to take the time to fully justify why so it doesn't look so silly then explain why Sisters being outnumbered by Space Marines isn't exactly an issue with their many duties.

Alright. Using your list I will add my own remarks in italics:

Protecting some Ecclesiarchy Relics
Portecting some Ecclesiarchy Holy Sites
Protecting some Churches
Bringing the Imperial Creed to occasionally newly found/rediscovered worlds as part of the Non-Militant Orders Sabine, or by attaching a few bodyguards to a cleric
Leading Wars of Faith by sending detachments from the Major Orders to serve as a spearhead for other forces to rally around
Guarding some Pilgrim ships and routes
Occasionally assisting the Ordos Hereticus
Occasionally Persecuting Heretics, often as part of the aforementioned collaboration with the Ordo Hereticus
Defending Shrine Worlds by standing ready to despatch a force whenever an emergency occurs
Training new Sisters which is done by the Orders Famulous
Serving as a Field Hospital for the Imperial Guard which is done by the Orders Hospitaller, who also do not service any and every IG regiment
Running clinics for the poor which does not seem to happen in GW's own material, just BL novels
Brokering some of the various deals that are done between noble families which is done by the Orders Famulous
Arranging some marriages between various noble families, also done by the Orders Famulous
Policing the Ecclesiarchy to keep it in check as part of the already-mentioned task of assisting the Ordo Hereticus
Policing the various organizations of the Imperium as a constant watchdog against Heresy as part of the already-mentioned task of assisting the Ordo Hereticus
Eradicating Space Marine chapters which admittedly doesn't happen that often
Participating in major conflicts (Armageddon, the 13th Black Crusade) where you had about 1 Battle Sister for every 20 Space Marines present
Translating messages for various dialects of Gothic which is done by the Orders Dialogous
Translating xeno writing and languages which is done by the Orders Dialogous

Your list seems rather inflated by listing a lot of stuff twice or thrice (or even four times - e.g. defending relics, holy sites, churches AND shrine worlds) that could have been lumped into a single thing (e.g. defending holy sites), and it is obviously not just about the Battle Sisters.

Not all relics are in churches, holy sites or on shrine worlds (we also have an order who collects and stores them, remember?). Additionally all churches and holy sites aren't on shrine worlds. I COULD lump them together but they are seperate things that as of the last bit of fluff it seems Sisters are responsible for protecting ALL of them.

My list covered all of the Sororitas, not just the Battle Sisters. The thing is, due to fluff, if the Militant Orders are locked at an artificially low number, so are the non-Militant orders which causes problems too.

And the clinics things is from the 2nd Ed codex about Hospitallers (also I said Field Hospital...kinda like a MASH unit, only less comedy than the show).

 Lynata wrote:
Are we now talking about the numbers of Adepta Sororitas as a whole? Because that's an entirely different topic, and something where I'd be much more open about discussion something like a million or more.

If we're locking numbers down on militant orders it locks down numbers down on non-militant orders too, because they can't (per fluff) outnumber the militants.

 Lynata wrote:
And to reiterate, I don't see the problem with so many tasks specifically because they won't be doing all of them simultaneously and/or with the entirety of their Sisters. The Major Orders are active in several warzones simultaneously because they have the numbers and the mobility, whereas Codex fluff even specifically points out that the Inquisitors prefer the Minor Orders for OH business because their bases are more spread-out and thus able to faster respond to local matters than calling in a ship from, say, Ophelia VII. Your average Minor Order won't go around torching random heretics day and night - the clergy and the civilian zealots wouldn't have anything left to do if it were like that.
The daily schedule of a Battle Sister consists of training and prayer, occasionally interrupted by a mission - which could be anything from accompanying a pilgrim transport to executing an apostate Cardinal to burning a few mutants. It all depends on the day.

Being former military, and someone who dealt with personnel and the like, I do. 21,000 isn't a large standing force for the amount of work they have to do and with the fluff being the way it is the numbers fluctuate so wildly that the true miracle is that non of the Major Orders have been wiped out.

 Lynata wrote:
I mean, it's not like we see the Space Marines never being at home, and there's certainly enough evil stuff to fight. One could also look to the Orders Militant' historical example, the various religious knightly orders in medieval times.

Space Marines also have a more established fluff on why they only have so many. They have smaller population counts to draw from, some don't survive the implant process, the low count enforced because they essentially screwed the pooch and the Heresy happened, ect.

 Lynata wrote:
If we'd aim for a number of Battle Sisters truly able to deal with any heretic anywhere, we'd need as many Sisters as there are Guardsmen, if not more. Part of the setting's main theme is that there are never enough Imperial troops to truly win, regardless of whether we'd be talking Marines or Sisters. And even the Guardsmen are merely "holding the line".

I'm fine with there not being as many Sisters are there are Heretics. Even if we didn't go as high as my 10.5 Billion going higher would still make more sense than what we've got. Like I said, we could start restricting things further with rules such as "only women with black hair" and so on, but the point I was trying to make is that there is either missing facts that GW needs to be sharing with us, or the numbers need to be adjusted, that was my whole point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:
The low numbers are a BS reason to not spend time building them up more in the fluff and background when they're so integrated into the Imperium. It's lazy writing and shows a lack of a proper sense of scale.

Now that's a statement I can get behind. GW being stupid is something I can almost always agree with.

I'm glad someone agreed with that!

ClockworkZion wrote:Praxedes proves that they are willing to change fluff rather nicely. Oh and Jaconus isn't dead now, Celestine has no references to being nuked (and is now 500% more miraculous than before). I'm sure I can find more if I really tried.

Can you find something about the numbers, though?

ClockworkZion wrote:What about our merry excursion to a Daemon infested world?

I'd rather have old Praxedes back. In its own way, the legend surrounding her MIA status was more "epic" than a bunch of Sisters shooting a path through a Daemon world. Praxedes was Sainted for her sacrifice, and I could easily see her story and myth spreading through entire sectors. The recovery of someone's left thighbone from a Daemon world, on the other hand? That just sounds like "every Tuesday" for the Orders Militant, if you permit the exaggeration. Praxedes was unique.

Perhaps it's just the way it was written, with the whole thing having been explained in but three sentences. I admit it has potential to be made more dramatic by giving this incident more "personality" rather than just being like "they went there, killed a few daemons, lost a few Sisters, then dusted off again".

Don't get me wrong - it's certainly not bad, but if I were permitted to choose ...

ClockworkZion wrote:Not all relics are in churches, holy sites or on shrine worlds (we also have an order who collects and stores them, remember?). Additionally all churches and holy sites aren't on shrine worlds.

Every church, every shrine, and every shrine world is a holy site by default. The Orders Pronatus collect Imperial relics but they don't store them - what they do store is relics and technology deemed dangerous to the Imperium. As far as I can see, proper Imperial relics are either kept safe at a shrine or vault on holy ground, or are carried into battle by the Sisters ... and sometimes certain clerics, though less often than the SoB do. I do remember a line in the 2E Codex about lots of priests being like "nnnooo don't touch it" in regards to the Sisters' affinity to actually take a relic OUT of its safe shrine and take it for a walk on some battlefield.

ClockworkZion wrote:And the clinics things is from the 2nd Ed codex about Hospitallers (also I said Field Hospital...kinda like a MASH unit, only less comedy than the show).

I'll re-check, but from memory the Hospitallers serve the military and the Inquisition, and sometimes a Rogue Trader in good standing with the Ecclesiarchy.
It may well be that they also aid the poor, but how often/much?

ClockworkZion wrote:If we're locking numbers down on militant orders it locks down numbers down on non-militant orders too, because they can't (per fluff) outnumber the militants.

Not necessarily - going by the Liber Sororitas, it's not a comparison of Militant to Non-Militant, but specific sub-sections of the Non-Militant ones*:

"Some orders, such as the Orders Dialogus and Famulous, are known to be as large as the Orders Militant, whereas others may be little more than a handful of Sisters pursuing their obscure specialization. The cloisters of the Convents Prioris and Sanctorum are vast and winding, and those who oversee them may not even know the full extent of those that toil within the gloomy chambers."

There is no exact limitation on the overall number of Non-Militant Orders, just the provision that none of them may rise above the total number of Battle Sisters in terms of membership. In other words, there could be a hundred Orders (all with individual convents, like the Order of the Gate and the Order of the Holy Seal are both Orders Famulous) all with differing specialisations. Or maybe just a dozen. Either way, I don't see a cap there.

ClockworkZion wrote:21,000 isn't a large standing force for the amount of work they have to do

If you subtract stuff like the protection of pilgrims or guarding holy sites, I think it is. 21k is the Major Orders who are more concerned with waging holy wars. Purity sweeps, Inquisitorial joint ops, playing bodyguard is all Minor Orders stuff.
But I think I've pointed this division of tasks out before. That doesn't make it less critical to the question at hand, though.

ClockworkZion wrote:and with the fluff being the way it is the numbers fluctuate so wildly that the true miracle is that non of the Major Orders have been wiped out

It's not a miracle considering that the fluff explicitly points out that even at the times of highest casualties they always kept a number of Sisters back in the primary Convent, and the supply from novices trained in the Orders Famulous facilities would not cease even when 99% of the Major Order they are being transferred to has been wiped out.
It is worth pointing out that the Order of Our Martyred Lady switched to red robes because of the losses they incurred on Armageddon, though.

ClockworkZion wrote:Space Marines also have a more established fluff on why they only have so many. They have smaller population counts to draw from, some don't survive the implant process, the low count enforced because they essentially screwed the pooch and the Heresy happened, ect.

A single Chapter may have a small population to draw from ("only" upwards of an entire planet), but as an organisation? No. If the Imperium wanted, they could just as well raise a thousand Chapters more, with a thousand world and more to draw further recruits from. You only need a single planet to supply an entire Marine Chapter with recruits, right? How many planets does the Imperium have?

So, we are left with a political decision. Yet, do you really not see a connection to the Decree Passive forced upon the Adeptus Ministorum? Wouldn't you consider that flaunting the spirit of the law this openly, by essentially clinging to a legal trick, is walking a fairly thin line - one that the Ecclesiarch may not want to cross even further in light of the watchful eyes of the Ordo Hereticus?

... coming to think of it, the Minor Orders may be the Ecclesiarchy's way of "hiding" their strength similar to how the Black Templars do it with their Crusades.


*: I think "Non-Militant" may even be a completely unofficial catchall term for everything that isn't Battle Sisters. As far as the Ecclesiarchy and Adepta Sororitas are concerned, there are just the "Orders Militant", "Orders Famulous", "Orders Hospitaller", "Orders Pronatus", "Orders Dialogous", "Orders Sabine", ... etc

I believe that the book with the Hospitaller defending against a Tyranid horde was the second Uriel Ventris novel, better known for Uriel rhino-surfing and then shooting a Norn Queen with hellfire rounds.

That coincides with the PM I just got - well, at least according to the title's description on the internets.

Thanks!

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:Praxedes proves that they are willing to change fluff rather nicely. Oh and Jaconus isn't dead now, Celestine has no references to being nuked (and is now 500% more miraculous than before). I'm sure I can find more if I really tried.

Can you find something about the numbers, though?

No, which neither proves or disproves anything, just leaves us referencing older stuff in hopes that we can find something.

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:What about our merry excursion to a Daemon infested world?

I'd rather have old Praxedes back. In its own way, the legend surrounding her MIA status was more "epic" than a bunch of Sisters shooting a path through a Daemon world. Praxedes was Sainted for her sacrifice, and I could easily see her story and myth spreading through entire sectors. The recovery of someone's left thighbone from a Daemon world, on the other hand? That just sounds like "every Tuesday" for the Orders Militant, if you permit the exaggeration. Praxedes was unique.

Perhaps it's just the way it was written, with the whole thing having been explained in but three sentences. I admit it has potential to be made more dramatic by giving this incident more "personality" rather than just being like "they went there, killed a few daemons, lost a few Sisters, then dusted off again".

Don't get me wrong - it's certainly not bad, but if I were permitted to choose ...

Thigh bone and pages of religious text actually. But I get what your saying.

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:Not all relics are in churches, holy sites or on shrine worlds (we also have an order who collects and stores them, remember?). Additionally all churches and holy sites aren't on shrine worlds.

Every church, every shrine, and every shrine world is a holy site by default. The Orders Pronatus collect Imperial relics but they don't store them - what they do store is relics and technology deemed dangerous to the Imperium. As far as I can see, proper Imperial relics are either kept safe at a shrine or vault on holy ground, or are carried into battle by the Sisters ... and sometimes certain clerics, though less often than the SoB do. I do remember a line in the 2E Codex about lots of priests being like "nnnooo don't touch it" in regards to the Sisters' affinity to actually take a relic OUT of its safe shrine and take it for a walk on some battlefield.

In addition to all of those holy sites though we also have things like "the Emperor stood here" and "here is where Saint soandso healed the sick", ect. Any site of high enough signifigance counts as a Holy Site, be they church, shrine or other.

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:And the clinics things is from the 2nd Ed codex about Hospitallers (also I said Field Hospital...kinda like a MASH unit, only less comedy than the show).

I'll re-check, but from memory the Hospitallers serve the military and the Inquisition, and sometimes a Rogue Trader in good standing with the Ecclesiarchy.
It may well be that they also aid the poor, but how often/much?

Often enough that it was made a defining characteristic in the 2nd Ed codex at least.

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:If we're locking numbers down on militant orders it locks down numbers down on non-militant orders too, because they can't (per fluff) outnumber the militants.

Not necessarily - going by the Liber Sororitas, it's not a comparison of Militant to Non-Militant, but specific sub-sections of the Non-Militant ones*:

"Some orders, such as the Orders Dialogus and Famulous, are known to be as large as the Orders Militant, whereas others may be little more than a handful of Sisters pursuing their obscure specialization. The cloisters of the Convents Prioris and Sanctorum are vast and winding, and those who oversee them may not even know the full extent of those that toil within the gloomy chambers."

There is no exact limitation on the overall number of Non-Militant Orders, just the provision that none of them may rise above the total number of Battle Sisters in terms of membership. In other words, there could be a hundred Orders (all with individual convents, like the Order of the Gate and the Order of the Holy Seal are both Orders Famulous) all with differing specialisations. Or maybe just a dozen. Either way, I don't see a cap there.

Fair enough. I'm just going to point out that your loose interpretation of the fluff is no worse than mine.

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:21,000 isn't a large standing force for the amount of work they have to do

If you subtract stuff like the protection of pilgrims or guarding holy sites, I think it is. 21k is the Major Orders who are more concerned with waging holy wars. Purity sweeps, Inquisitorial joint ops, playing bodyguard is all Minor Orders stuff.
But I think I've pointed this division of tasks out before. That doesn't make it less critical to the question at hand, though.

So basically your head canon is that the 21K only counts those who are actively engaged in conflicts or are able to engage in conflicts?

Still pretty lowball, but it's better than what currently exists.

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:and with the fluff being the way it is the numbers fluctuate so wildly that the true miracle is that non of the Major Orders have been wiped out

It's not a miracle considering that the fluff explicitly points out that even at the times of highest casualties they always kept a number of Sisters back in the primary Convent, and the supply from novices trained in the Orders Famulous facilities would not cease even when 99% of the Major Order they are being transferred to has been wiped out.
It is worth pointing out that the Order of Our Martyred Lady switched to red robes because of the losses they incurred on Armageddon, though.

According to 2nd Ed the Orders end up as low as a few hundred warriors at times all who are deployed and engaged in conflict. I'd say that's a bit risky and makes it more likely the order could potentially end up getting killed off. Even Marines see only having a few hundred total bodies as a "bad thing".

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:Space Marines also have a more established fluff on why they only have so many. They have smaller population counts to draw from, some don't survive the implant process, the low count enforced because they essentially screwed the pooch and the Heresy happened, ect.

A single Chapter may have a small population to draw from ("only" upwards of an entire planet), but as an organisation? No. If the Imperium wanted, they could just as well raise a thousand Chapters more, with a thousand world and more to draw further recruits from. You only need a single planet to supply an entire Marine Chapter with recruits, right? How many planets does the Imperium have?

The point was more that the fluff goes into reasons why the Marines are capped. The Sisters does not. If we're going to live with an artificial glass ceiling I'd like to know why.

 Lynata wrote:
So, we are left with a political decision. Yet, do you really not see a connection to the Decree Passive forced upon the Adeptus Ministorum? Wouldn't you consider that flaunting the spirit of the law this openly, by essentially clinging to a legal trick, is walking a fairly thin line - one that the Ecclesiarch may not want to cross even further in light of the watchful eyes of the Ordo Hereticus?

... coming to think of it, the Minor Orders may be the Ecclesiarchy's way of "hiding" their strength similar to how the Black Templars do it with their Crusades.

You're reaching a bit I think. It doesn't make it wrong, but it does mean your stretching the fluff a bit.

 Lynata wrote:
*: I think "Non-Militant" may even be a completely unofficial catchall term for everything that isn't Battle Sisters. As far as the Ecclesiarchy and Adepta Sororitas are concerned, there are just the "Orders Militant", "Orders Famulous", "Orders Hospitaller", "Orders Pronatus", "Orders Dialogous", "Orders Sabine", ... etc

Possibly.

I'd rather have old Praxedes back. In its own way, the legend surrounding her MIA status was more "epic" than a bunch of Sisters shooting a path through a Daemon world. Praxedes was Sainted for her sacrifice, and I could easily see her story and myth spreading through entire sectors. The recovery of someone's left thighbone from a Daemon world, on the other hand? That just sounds like "every Tuesday" for the Orders Militant, if you permit the exaggeration. Praxedes was unique.

It might be every Tuesday, but to them it's something to be done regardless of rank. Why would they care for glorious battle when they need something to be saved?

ClockworkZion wrote:No, which neither proves or disproves anything, just leaves us referencing older stuff in hopes that we can find something.

True - I should point out that this is how I treat the fluff in general, though, regardless of whether it's about Sisters or not. As long as there's no clear contradiction in newer material, anyways. There's so much detail that would get lost if we would not dig up old fluff ... such as the very informative description of Marine power armour in the Codex Angels of Death, or the Inquisitorial stuff in the 3E books and the Inquisitor RPG, etc.

I'm probably like most fans in that I like to see the setting as something bigger than just what we're told in one or two books - with the difference that most people these days seem to go by various Black Library novels whereas I'm digging up GW's own writings from sources that could be called "less accessible" ...

ClockworkZion wrote:In addition to all of those holy sites though we also have things like "the Emperor stood here" and "here is where Saint soandso healed the sick", ect. Any site of high enough signifigance counts as a Holy Site, be they church, shrine or other.

That's why I meant we could just sum it all up as "holy sites". Such places of significance will draw attention from both the people (pilgrims) as well as the Ecclesiarchy (services).

We just disagree on how likely a physical presence is at any one such site, I suppose. "Realistically", if we were to say that each and every holy site has Sisters attached to it, you'd probably see a squad of Battle Sisters in every city on every planet because it'll have a church and priests. That's just not "my 40k", I guess. Power armour and boltguns aren't that common for me, even aside from any recruitment issues that may or may not exist.

ClockworkZion wrote:Fair enough. I'm just going to point out that your loose interpretation of the fluff is no worse than mine.

Hey, for once I was trying to help you get higher numbers there!

ClockworkZion wrote:So basically your head canon is that the 21K only counts those who are actively engaged in conflicts or are able to engage in conflicts?

The 21k is the estimated headcount for the six Major Orders Militant towards the end of M41 - that much we can gain from the numbers stated in the 2E Codex ("between 3-4k", multiplied by 6).

My headcanon is the number of Battle Sisters from the Minor Orders that exist in addition to these 21k, and I'll freely admit that those ~70k are a very arbitrary number, to which I came solely by looking at how the Sororitas expanded over the millennia, and then trying to decide on an overall number that would reflect this development. I settled for 100k and deducted 1/3 to account for the six Major Orders whose numbers we have in the Codex.
With the average Minor Order having around a hundred Sisters (some more, some less), this could yield a thousand Minor Orders to take care of "local matters" across the Imperium, deploying individual Sisters or entire squads to stand vigil at "nearby" shrines and to guard important Ecclesiarchy officials, accompany pilgrim transports and perform purity sweeps, or respond to the occasional request of assistance from the Ordo Hereticus. There could even be entire Orders garrisoning a shrine world.

Sometimes the Minor Orders may get dragged into a larger conflict as well (see the Force Disposition Chart of the 13th Black Crusade again), but it wouldn't be their main task. The Major Orders have more troops and (supposedly) their own ships and so are much more mobile and capable in terms of military action, whereas the Minor Orders take care of all those other tasks.

Thinking about it, this even ties in with how the Minor Orders came to be in the first place - the Major Orders were always based on Terra and Ophelia, and to perform all those other duties (protecting important holy sites, playing bodyguard, safeguarding pilgrim routes) they obviously had to create subsidiary bases throughout the Imperium. In M38 this led to these convents officially splitting off from their maternal Order Maioris and leading to the birth of the Minor Orders, in turn freeing up the Major Orders to focus on larger stuff.
It even explains why the Order of Our Martyred Lady already had a base on Armageddon prior to the Third War when this is what one would expect of a Minor Order such as the Order of the Ermine Mantle on Subiaco Diablo ... it must have been a detachment that did not yet split off from the main order, possibly due to the importance of Armageddon, or because the convent is only a few centuries old? (given that there is no mention of these Sisters in the First War when everything there was full of daemons and CSM)

Yay, more speculation!
Anyways, I hope this wasn't just a big misunderstanding and you thought I'd argue for only the 21k of the Major Orders. Though even with 100k my headcanon seems way off from the millions that are being argued in this thread.

ClockworkZion wrote:According to 2nd Ed the Orders end up as low as a few hundred warriors at times all who are deployed and engaged in conflict. I'd say that's a bit risky and makes it more likely the order could potentially end up getting killed off. Even Marines see only having a few hundred total bodies as a "bad thing".

Well, Marines are not only smaller, they also have no outside agency like the Orders Famulous providing them with fully trained Sisters and need to train their Scouts themselves. Their units also seem much more interlinked - casualties in the Battle Companies will drain the Reserves with transfers, which in turn also means there's fewer drivers for their vehicles etc. With the Sisters of Battle, every squad acts independently of one another. In terms of logistics vs tactics, I suppose that's a blessing and a curse ...

Anyways, I think the Marines see "only having a few hundred total bodies as a bad thing" not just because they'd like to have more men, but also because it likely means they lost a fethton of geneseed in some huge battle. The Celestial Lions still have 96 Marines, but the Chapter is doomed to extinction because even with new recruits they couldn't implant them as they've lost every Apothecary and too much geneseed. And even if a Chapter would still be in a position to train new recruits it'd be severely handicapped by its size and would have to limit its operations. Sisters in such a situation would just requisition reinforcements from another Order in the form of novices, veterans and support specialists. As the Liber Sororitas notes, the orders are much more compatible to each other, and transfers are not a rarity. Bonus: novices get trained by the Orders Famulous, so any new Sister that joins an Order Militant can be deployed to the field immediately rather than having to spend a decade in some Astartes Scout Company.

ClockworkZion wrote:The point was more that the fluff goes into reasons why the Marines are capped. The Sisters does not. If we're going to live with an artificial glass ceiling I'd like to know why.

The connection to SoB numbers may not be explicitly stated, but "the High Lords don't want the Ecclesiarchy to have military power" was written in the Codex fluff, as well as the Inquisition going into yellow alert and calling a conclave on the issue.
For me, that's at least enough to play Devil's Advocate and defend GW's numbers. I do understand the scepticism, but I guess it depends on how much one wants or does not want this to work out. I'm clearly in the former camp. As I said, it lets me sleep easier with how little the SoB show up in the fluff. But where they show up, they make it count. I can live with that.

For what it's worth, I've also done this justification game for the 1k Space Marines per Chapter, or why SM would use Rhinos instead of Chimaeras, or why the lasgun is so popular...
I guess I just enjoy the challenge of trying to find "excuses" for whatever it says in the books - as long as I have no problem with what's written there, that is. I tend to be just as biased as any fan, though I'm trying hard to find a moderate ground and stick to principles.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:It might be every Tuesday, but to them it's something to be done regardless of rank. Why would they care for glorious battle when they need something to be saved?

Oh, don't get me wrong - this was just personal preference by me as a reader and fan, rather than how it would be seen by the Sisters.

(though I'm sure that Praxedes' legend would inspire many a young novice! paragons and examples are important)

TheSaintofKillers wrote:Marines being hurt by small arms...........You seem to be a bit out of touch, normal human strongmen are basically immune to small arms due to sheer muscle density and volume. (it wont reach an organ and will get lodged in only the first 2-3 inches of straight muscle. There's a lot more muscle than that before the organs.