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The imperium has a relationship in the amount of work done between the marines and the guard similar to the SEALs and the Marines respectively. Not really in getting stuff done though. When the imperium is tired of offing millions of guard to retake a planet they send in a chapter of marines who does the same task in a few months with few casualties. The imperial guard still do most of the work though.
The Sisters?
They don't seem to do much of anything. I'm under the impression that they have fewer numbers than even a large pre heresy legion of marines and with marines being superhuman, with dudes who can go toe to toe with bloodthirsters being all things considered not that rare ( look at the new iron hands chapter masters, gak......) They seem to be worth very little in comparison to the marines who simply seem to be traditional even if they are effective.
I would love to hear some stuff about sisters exploits to change my opinion. This isn't really a fluffy question, but a converstation starter for all the sisters fanboys and fangirls we seem to have.
The ultimate question I guess? Why do people defend them with fanaticism?

Frankly, I think they fulfill no real role.

However, be prepared for this thread to be flooded in fanboy/girls.

People defend them because they're pretty much the only representation of women in 40k. People also tend to get defensive about their own armies being distinct.

They're also people in power armor who aren't genetically enhanced, which is unique. There hasn't been much fluff around them recently because GW haven't totally known what to do with them. When they get a new codex and new models, you'll see a lot more of them in the background.

 Brother SRM wrote:
People defend them because they're pretty much the only representation of women in 40k. People also tend to get defensive about their own armies being distinct.

They're also people in power armor who aren't genetically enhanced, which is unique. There hasn't been much fluff around them recently because GW haven't totally known what to do with them. When they get a new codex and new models, you'll see a lot more of them in the background.

They aren't really the only women though. Female imperial navy officers, female commisars, Callidus assasins, the sisters of silence, and female inquisitors are all not uncommon.
Will that ever happen? It's not really when they get a new codex, but if they'll simply get wiped out by the entire grey knights order using entire sisterhoods as lubricant. If GW decides to get on it they'll do it pretty much instantly.
I'd actually love to see them get a new codex, if only so people at my otherwise friendly LGS would shut up.

They are the absolute best that Humanity has to offer. They lack the numbers of the Imperial Guard, they lack even the numbers of the Space Marines, and they lack the super-science and genetic manipulations that the Space Marines have. They are hard as nails, and rather adept at kicking ass and taking absolutely no names.

Yet, the Sisters of Battle are used to fight heretics, Chaos worshipers, Xenos, and Daemons... the threats From Within, From Without and From Beyond... and they do it gladly. They purify the corrupt with flame, bolter and melta. They set straight that which is twisted, they carry the light of the Emperor's Will into the darkest of places, they punish the wicked in the name of the Golden Throne of Terra... and they do this without a hint of the arrogance or pride of the Space Marines, because the Sisters of Battle, alone of every institution of the Imperium, truly understands what it means to serve the God-Emperor.

Their Orders Dialoguous analyze ancient and Xeno texts that further the Imperium's understanding of its own history and that of its myriad enemies.

Their Orders Famulous help ensure that Imperial nobility maintains its faith in the God-Emperor and, through their subtle machinations, marry into other families that further the goals of the Ecclesiarchy.

Their Orders Hospitaler ensure that the soldiers and common people both in war-torn areas see servants of the God-Emperor out amongst their sick and injured on missions of mercy, succor and healing.

Their Orders Militant do much of the same work of the Space Marines, and more, and do it without the various implants and mutations that the Space Marines do. It is also of note that, as far as the GW studio is concerned, not a single Sister of Battle has ever turned to Chaos and betrayed the Emperor. No Space Marine can make the same claim about the Astartes.

 Psienesis wrote:
It is also of note that, as far as the GW studio is concerned, not a single Sister of Battle has ever turned to Chaos and betrayed the Emperor. No Space Marine can make the same claim about the Astartes.

Miriael Sabathiel fell to chaos.

Yeh, that's the GK that never had anyone fall...


And hopefully we don't get into the fell vs corrupted by debate...

They all have the same haircut. Several hundred women with the same haircut, and no complaints? I have trouble buying that!

Guard are not the "SEALS" of the Imperium. Think of them more like Joe Schmoe Grunt in Vietnam. His life expectancy is limited and surviving a major push can be grounds for promotions and commendations. Or being shot for cowardice if they think he's lying (Ork Codex about "sneaky Orks" for that one).

Sisters are in a meh place on the table but when you dig into their fluff they're the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy. The guard churches, shrines, Ecclesiarchal palaces, holy sites and pilgrimages. They fight in Wars of Faith and root out heretics. They're the standing army on Shrine Worlds and are a major force of it's PDFs. They are the militant force behind many Ecclesiarchy led crusades to reclaim/convert planets and they even police the Ecclesiarchy itself.

The numbers presented in the 5th Edition rulebook where frankly wrong, or only counted the Militant arms of the Sisters as they have an Order for just about everything.

Translating alien languages, as well as different dialects of Gothic? Order Diagolus.

Brokering relations between the various Noble houses and keeping them in line? Order Famolous.

Running just about every hospital in the Imperium? Order Hospitaler.

There are even Orders who safeguard and protect Imperium relics and Minor Orders who exist only to protect the sacred sites of the Imperium (such as the place the Emperor stood when he signed some treaty, and so on).

In the grand scheme of things they represent the Imperium's faith in the Emperor and the pinnacle of what a person can be. They had the best training by the best minds of the Imperium when they were the Brides of the Emperor and it's been handed down and expanded upon since the Reign of Blood.

They fight anyone, anywhere at anytime and can win through faith and zeal alone. Not through the millions of bodies of the Imperial Guard, or the trans-humanist augmentations of the Space Marines, but through hard training and unbreakable faith alone.

So why are they "useless"? Because most of their fluff stems from 2nd Edition? Because they don't appear in many Black Library books? Because they don't have Space Marine statlines or the untold numbers of the Imperial Guard?

They get defended by the people who know them. The people who seek to correct the errors of the uninformed who don't know what they do or why they exist. They're a major factor in the background, even if they aren't on the table and don't appear in that many BL books (I know they appear in the Cain series, in the first of the Grey Knights series, they have 2 novels of their own and the Daemonfuge graphic novel that never finished).

But lack of proof their involvement is not proof that they don't do anything. You just have to take it on faith.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Necrosis wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
It is also of note that, as far as the GW studio is concerned, not a single Sister of Battle has ever turned to Chaos and betrayed the Emperor. No Space Marine can make the same claim about the Astartes.

Miriael Sabathiel fell to chaos.

Still a better track record than how many Marines again?

EDIT: For the record, to date, the only mentioning of her is in a short story called "The Invitation" by Dan Abnett.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 inkybones wrote:
They all have the same haircut. Several hundred women with the same haircut, and no complaints? I have trouble buying that!

Someone isn't familiar with how religious cults work apparently.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 n0t_u wrote:
Yeh, that's the GK that never had anyone fall...

And hopefully we don't get into the fell vs corrupted by debate...

You get a Grey Knight who "falls" to Khorne in the 3rd Grey Knights novel by Ben Counter. I mean if we're counting a Sister who only fell in a short story we might as well count the Grey Knight Justicar who went insane, became a champion of Khorne for a while all in an attempt to avoid possession by a Tzeentchian Daemon (don't worry, he gets better).

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
To the Above
Do you honestly not know what respectively means? / I was referring to Astartes as the SEALs and Guard as the Marines. It's safe to assume if no one has caught something in 10 posts you're wrong.

Gah, I was halfway through writing up a big response to this, and my computer froze up. Right, take two...

 Brother SRM wrote:
People defend them because they're pretty much the only representation of women in 40k.

Whilst this is a positive aspect to them, and an interesting quirk, they are far more than their gender. It might be the first thing that a lot of people see, but really, they're far more defined by their faith and status as the church's army. To me, and I think a lot of SoB fans, this is the bigger draw.

 Brother SRM wrote:
There hasn't been much fluff around them recently because GW haven't totally known what to do with them.

I don't think that this is quite the case. See, the main barrier to Sisters not getting a proper update has been modelling issues (which according to recent dev comments, have been resolved). When GW does write them, their 5e codex being a good example, they do quite a good job of it. Their fluff has generally portrayed them very well, defining their character as holy warriors as well as making them look suitably badass. So apparently GW can handle them just fine, but the modelling issues have preveneted that. However, as you touched upon, an incoming proper update should give us plenty of cool new fluff.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
They don't seem to do much of anything.

I can't blame you for thinking this, exactly. Their fluff is more obscure, hence the average 40K fan doesn't hear much about them, and can easily get the impression that they are fairly inactive. The lack of fluff on them itself also contributes to this. But as I said above, the lack of proper updates is mostly to blame for that. Once a proper codex is released, we'll likely hear more about them.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
They seem to be worth very little in comparison to the marines who simply seem to be traditional even if they are effective.

This is where the Acts of Faith come in. Through these, the Sisters are able to achieve "seemingly miriculous" feats, certainly a leveller to the superhuman biology of the Astartes. I recall Lynata mentioning that there was fluff that outright said that this made them the equals of Marines, but you'd have to ask him for the source on that.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
I would love to hear some stuff about sisters exploits to change my opinion.

Sure thing. One list of cool SoB exploits coming up (or at least as many as I can be bothered to type up):

- The siege of the Ecclesiarchial Palace. Back when they were Vandire's personal army. The Sisters held off four Marine Chapters, who had Mechanicus backup. It got to the point where the Custodes themselves thought it better to negotiate with the Sisters than to let the fighting drag on.
- The War for Piety: The Sisters launch a raid on a Daemon World (formerly a Shrine World) to recover holy relics. They fight through thr Daemons and successfully retrieve a few notable relics, and escpae just before the Grey Knight bomb the world clean.
- The Defence of Dimmamar: Eldar attack Sebastian Thor's homeworld. A Seraphim Superior walks through a Farseer's psychic lightning, which kills the rest of her squad, and kills the alien with a single bolt to the head.
- The San Leor Massacre: Red Corsairs attack the world from which the Sororitas originated, and are "utterly annihilated" by the Sororitas counter-attack.
- The Promethean War: Sisters team up with the Salamanders to burn Chaos good. The tide starts to turn against them when a Daemon Prince shows up, but then Celestine appears and cuts a swathe through the Choas forces before stabbing the Daemon Prince in his heart.
- Hammer and Anvil: A James Swallow book about Martyred Lady going back to Sanctuary 101. A good portrayal, has the Sisters steadfastly holding out against a numerically superior Necron force, and a Canoness duels a Necron Lord on his own command Monolith.
- The Avignor Uprising: A Forgeworld contribution, the Sisters help Arbites who are ubnable to contain a riot. To do this, the Sisters take possession of some Repressors, soup them up with flamers and heavy bolters, and use them to put down the riots.
- The Death of Antagonis: I'll put this one in spoilers, so if you don't want parts of this book spoiled, don't look!
- The Bones of Saint Emile: Cool story about a Sister driving her Rhino out of an Ork horde to save a relic. Here, read it for yourself.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
Why do people defend them with fanaticism?

Well... because we like them! An SoB fan arguing in their army's favour is really no different than a fan of any other army doing so.

But, speaking for myself, the reason I like the Sisters is because they are, as others have said, basically the pinnacle of the "normal" human in this setting. They have the best standard equipment, but they do without the genetic enchancements of the Astartes, battling on with sheer grit and resisting Chaos with sheer force of will. There's also their Acts of Faith, intense feats of willpower that drive them to seemingly miricaulous feats, several times per battle. No other army has that as a mechanic! Their aesthetic is also very unique, with things like pipe organ tanks, iconography everywhere and futuristic Sallets.

 inkybones wrote:
They all have the same haircut. Several hundred women with the same haircut, and no complaints? I have trouble buying that!

Why? Militaries enforce unifrom haircuts, don't they? On top of that, the Sisters are highly disciplined relgious fanatics. I would be surprised if they didn't have unifrom haircuts, really.

ClockworkZion wrote:
EDIT: For the record, to date, the only mentioning of her is in a short story called "The Invitation" by Dan Abnett.

She actually originated from a third-party card game, IIRC. Presumably the Abnett story came afterwards.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
To the Above
Do you honestly not know what respectively means? / I was referring to Astartes as the SEALs and Guard as the Marines. It's safe to assume if no one has caught something in 10 posts you're wrong.

Rating Guardsmen as high as the USMC is still to high. Your adverage Guardsman is trained in route to where he'll be deployed. On some planets (Cadia, Krieg and Catachan for instance) go above and beyond that and often through neccesity more than because they're that good.

Nice job pointing that out and ignoring the rest by the way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@troike, you forgot Prexedus who killed a Hive Tyrant by bashing it's head in with a maul before she sucumbed to her wounds while her and her order held the line against a planetary invasion of Nids so the PDF could escape on the last available transports. They held the line so long that there where claims that they might have still been inside of that Hive Fleet actively fighting until the Imperium finally confirmed the Canness' death sometime later.

 Troike wrote:
Gah, I was halfway through writing up a big response to this, and my computer froze up. Right, take two...

 Brother SRM wrote:
People defend them because they're pretty much the only representation of women in 40k.

Whilst this is a positive aspect to them, and an interesting quirk, they are far more than their gender. It might be the first thing that a lot of people see, but really, they're far more defined by their faith and status as the church's army. To me, and I think a lot of SoB fans, this is the bigger draw.

 Brother SRM wrote:
There hasn't been much fluff around them recently because GW haven't totally known what to do with them.

I don't think that this is quite the case. See, the main barrier to Sisters not getting a proper update has been modelling issues (which according to recent dev comments, have been resolved). When GW does write them, their 5e codex being a good example, they do quite a good job of it. Their fluff has generally portrayed them very well, defining their character as holy warriors as well as making them look suitably badass. So apparently GW can handle them just fine, but the modelling issues have preveneted that. However, as you touched upon, an incoming proper update should give us plenty of cool new fluff.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
They don't seem to do much of anything.

I can't blame you for thinking this, exactly. Their fluff is more obscure, hence the average 40K fan doesn't hear much about them, and can easily get the impression that they are fairly inactive. The lack of fluff on them itself also contributes to this. But as I said above, the lack of proper updates is mostly to blame for that. Once a proper codex is released, we'll likely hear more about them.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
They seem to be worth very little in comparison to the marines who simply seem to be traditional even if they are effective.

This is where the Acts of Faith come in. Through these, the Sisters are able to achieve "seemingly miriculous" feats, certainly a leveller to the superhuman biology of the Astartes. I recall Lynata mentioning that there was fluff that outright said that this made them the equals of Marines, but you'd have to ask him for the source on that.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
I would love to hear some stuff about sisters exploits to change my opinion.

Sure thing. One list of cool SoB exploits coming up (or at least as many as I can be bothered to type up):

- The siege of the Ecclesiarchial Palace. Back when they were Vandire's personal army. The Sisters held off four Marine Chapters, who had Mechanicus backup. It got to the point where the Custodes themselves thought it better to negotiate with the Sisters than to let the fighting drag on.
- The War for Piety: The Sisters launch a raid on a Daemon World (formerly a Shrine World) to recover holy relics. They fight through thr Daemons and successfully retrieve a few notable relics, and escpae just before the Grey Knight bomb the world clean.
- The Defence of Dimmamar: Eldar attack Sebastian Thor's homeworld. A Seraphim Superior walks through a Farseer's psychic lightning, which kills the rest of her squad, and kills the alien with a single bolt to the head.
- The San Leor Massacre: Red Corsairs attack the world from which the Sororitas originated, and are "utterly annihilated" by the Sororitas counter-attack.
- The Promethean War: Sisters team up with the Salamanders to burn Chaos good. The tide starts to turn against them when a Daemon Prince shows up, but then Celestine appears and cuts a swathe through the Choas forces before stabbing the Daemon Prince in his heart.
- Hammer and Anvil: A James Swallow book about Martyred Lady going back to Sanctuary 101. A good portrayal, has the Sisters steadfastly holding out against a numerically superior Necron force, and a Canoness duels a Necron Lord on his own command Monolith.
- The Avignor Uprising: A Forgeworld contribution, the Sisters help Arbites who are ubnable to contain a riot. To do this, the Sisters take possession of some Repressors, soup them up with flamers and heavy bolters, and use them to put down the riots.
- The Death of Antagonis: I'll put this one in spoilers, so if you don't want parts of this book spoiled, don't look!

Spoiler:

Canoness-Errant Setheno incites a population into a holy fervor, kills a Marine in one-on-one combat, and then, while still recovering from the Marine fight, kills a heretical Inquisitor and his Daemon minions.

- The Bones of Saint Emile: Cool story about a Sister driving her Rhino out of an Ork horde to save a relic. Here, read it for yourself.

Spoiler:

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
Why do people defend them with fanaticism?

Well... because we like them! An SoB fan arguing in their army's favour is really no different than a fan of any other army doing so.

But, speaking for myself, the reason I like the Sisters is because they are, as others have said, basically the pinnacle of the "normal" human in this setting. They have the best standard equipment, but they do without the genetic enchancements of the Astartes, battling on with sheer grit and resisting Chaos with sheer force of will. There's also their Acts of Faith, intense feats of willpower that drive them to seemingly miricaulous feats, several times per battle. No other army has that as a mechanic! Their aesthetic is also very unique, with things like pipe organ tanks, iconography everywhere and futuristic Sallets.

 inkybones wrote:
They all have the same haircut. Several hundred women with the same haircut, and no complaints? I have trouble buying that!

Why? Militaries enforce unifrom haircuts, don't they? On top of that, the Sisters are highly disciplined relgious fanatics. I would be surprised if they didn't have unifrom haircuts, really.

ClockworkZion wrote:
EDIT: For the record, to date, the only mentioning of her is in a short story called "The Invitation" by Dan Abnett.

She actually originated from a third-party card game, IIRC. Presumably the Abnett story came afterwards.

Actually pretty cool. Honestly wasn't aware that the sisters had a squad at every church, and ran every hospital. Makes them seem a little more significant to say the least.
They don't seem to have blatant "Mary Sues" compared to the marines which is a big point in their favor. I'm honestly enticed by the whole "Living Saint" thing. I love how it's based on the original Christian apostles and saints seeming unhuman.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ClockworkZion wrote:

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
To the Above
Do you honestly not know what respectively means? / I was referring to Astartes as the SEALs and Guard as the Marines. It's safe to assume if no one has caught something in 10 posts you're wrong.

Rating Guardsmen as high as the USMC is still to high. Your adverage Guardsman is trained in route to where he'll be deployed. On some planets (Cadia, Krieg and Catachan for instance) go above and beyond that and often through neccesity more than because they're that good.

Nice job pointing that out and ignoring the rest by the way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@troike, you forgot Prexedus who killed a Hive Tyrant by bashing it's head in with a maul before she sucumbed to her wounds while her and her order held the line against a planetary invasion of Nids so the PDF could escape on the last available transports. They held the line so long that there where claims that they might have still been inside of that Hive Fleet actively fighting until the Imperium finally confirmed the Canness' death sometime later.

You started your post with something hilariously wrong and so I couldn't take it seriously. Killing a hive tyrant? OK well if they only have one Mary Sue that's still better than the marines.

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:When the imperium is tired of offing millions of guard to retake a planet they send in a chapter of marines who does the same task in a few months with few casualties.

Depending on where you look, it's the other way around.

"Space Marines are entrusted with all sorts of perilous missions, such as lightning raids behind enemy lines, infiltration attacks to capture vital positions, and tunnel fights in enemy held cities. They also undertake long voyages of planetary exploration and conquest on behalf of the Imperium, earmarking planets which are too well defended so that they can be attacked later with the support of the Imperial Guard."
- Inquisitor: Adeptus Astartes

"Often, a conflict will be simply too large, the enemy too powerful, too numerous, or too well entrenched for local forces, ships, or Space Marines to defeat. In conflicts such as these, the really huge invasions, the wars that spread across whole star systems and decades of warp space, only the grinding steamroller of the Imperial Guard can hope to crush the foe."
- 2E C:IG

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:This isn't really a fluffy question, but a converstation starter for all the sisters fanboys and fangirls we seem to have. The ultimate question I guess? Why do people defend them with fanaticism?

For the same reason all the Space Marine "fanboys and fangirls" defend their army with fanaticism. Personal preferences as expressed in certain aspects of the design behind the faction - in visuals as well as thematically. No army is more "gothic" than the Sisters of Battle in their medieval-looking power armour, and no other army combines the contradictory factors of selfless altruism and murderous zeal as well as they do. Where Space Marines embody vengeance and the Imperial Guard embodies tenacity, the Sisters of Battle embody hope. Yet, in a deliciously but suitable grimdark ironic way, they are simultaneously amongst the most ruthless forces the Imperium may field, and this sort of "contradiction" has an appeal all of its own, considering the overall style of the setting. Last but not least, for many it is also the fact that they are female heroines, which may be perceived as a refreshing change from the standard sci-fi and fantasy fare. The Sisters of Battle are, in essence, an army of Jeanne d'Arc's, and thus act as a symbol for several potentially popular traits, chief amongst them their purity and their conviction.

ClockworkZion delivered an excellent summary in merely two sentences when he compared the value of faith and training against sheer numbers and genetic enhancements. It makes me recall a similar post from Manchu which deserves to be brought up again as well:

 Manchu wrote:
I'd say it's their defining feature. It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" So instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in that power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch.

Pure. Badass.

ClockworkZion wrote:The numbers presented in the 5th Edition rulebook where frankly wrong, or only counted the Militant arms of the Sisters as they have an Order for just about everything.

To be fair, OP did ask only about the Sisters of Battle, and the current rulebook with its numbers only discusses them also.
The 5E BRB was only flawed in that it mentioned three instead of six Major Orders Militant, but as we know this error was not repeated.

As for the size of the Non-Militant Orders, I think the only published information on that topic was this:

"The practitioners of each discipline are organised into one of three major and a great many smaller Orders each utterly dedicated to the pursuit of its own sphere of influence. The members of these Orders are often to be found advising high-ranking members of the Ecclesiarchy and the Adeptus Terra and also accompany Inquisitors of the Ordo Hereticus, many of whom find their highly specialised knowledge invaluable in their own work. Some orders, such as the Orders Dialogous and Famulous, are known to be as large as the Orders Militant, whereas others may be little more than a handful of Sisters pursuing their obscure specialisation."
- WD Liber Sororitas

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:Actually pretty cool. Honestly wasn't aware that the sisters had a squad at every church, and ran every hospital. Makes them seem a little more significant to say the least.

Every church and every hospital? No. Absolutely not. At least not in GW's material.
Actually, I would say that as a purely military force, the Sisters of Battle are very insignificant in the setting simply due to their small numbers. The same can be said about the Space Marines. What matters is that (again, same as the Astartes) they make their presence count where they do show up, such as on Armageddon or during the 13th Black Crusade. The Sisters Militant serve as a symbol of the Ecclesiarchy's power and Mankind's faith, a beacon of hope, and a considerable morale boost for troops and civilians under pressure. That is their primary significance - all the many tasks they actually fulfill? Purity controls, witch hunts, protecting pilgrims, hunting down rogue Marines? That's just the practical part of their job.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

You started your post with something hilariously wrong and so I couldn't take it seriously. Killing a hive tyrant? OK well if they only have one Mary Sue that's still better than the marines.

She was wounded by said Hive Tyrant and died from those wounds. Not so Mary Sue honestly. She fought on through her wounds which is what makes her impressive, for a human to fight on despite her pain and come out on top before ultimately dying, making the sacrifice so that the PDF could escape.

And when I hit "post reply" there where two replies, not 10.

This is the greatest thread ever made on Dakka.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
Actually pretty cool. Honestly wasn't aware that the sisters had a squad at every church, and ran every hospital. Makes them seem a little more significant to say the least.

I don't think that they quite have a squad at every church, but one of their main jobs is to guard the Ecclesiarchy. So yeah, expect them to be around Ecclesiarchy land a lot, which is itself very spread out. There's also Minor Orders, detatchments from a Major Order who have split off and settled down elsewhere, who could concievably be anywhere.

And yes, the Hospitallers are also a major Sororitas presence. Guardsmen seem to really respect them, with one in the Black Library novel "Gunheads" referring to Hospitallers as "angels", apparently. Other non-militant Sororitas include the Orders Dialogous, Orders Famulous , Orders Sabine and Orders Pronatus. So if you're looking at the Adepta Sororitas as a whole, rather than just the Orders Militant, they actually play a very wide range of roles in the Imperium.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
They don't seem to have blatant "Mary Sues" compared to the marines which is a big point in their favor.

Ephrael Stern is occasionally accused of being one, but I don't really agree. Her strong powers do have a justifiable source, and she never does anything as over the top of defacing a Daemon Primarch's heart.

Also, can't believe I forgot Stern from the list. Shame on me. But yeah, she's also another cool Sister. Stars in her own comic too.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
I'm honestly enticed by the whole "Living Saint" thing. I love how it's based on the original Christian apostles and saints seeming unhuman.

Yeah, it's an aspect of them that I'm very interested in too. It raises some very interesting implications, like how these Saints gain their powers. Two popular theories are that they are essentially "Daemon Princes" of the Emperor, or are conduits of the massed faith of the Sisters.

Also a lot of fun of the tabletop.

 Lynata wrote:

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:When the imperium is tired of offing millions of guard to retake a planet they send in a chapter of marines who does the same task in a few months with few casualties.

Depending on where you look, it's the other way around.

"Space Marines are entrusted with all sorts of perilous missions, such as lightning raids behind enemy lines, infiltration attacks to capture vital positions, and tunnel fights in enemy held cities. They also undertake long voyages of planetary exploration and conquest on behalf of the Imperium, earmarking planets which are too well defended so that they can be attacked later with the support of the Imperial Guard."
- Inquisitor: Adeptus Astartes

"Often, a conflict will be simply too large, the enemy too powerful, too numerous, or too well entrenched for local forces, ships, or Space Marines to defeat. In conflicts such as these, the really huge invasions, the wars that spread across whole star systems and decades of warp space, only the grinding steamroller of the Imperial Guard can hope to crush the foe."
- 2E C:IG

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:This isn't really a fluffy question, but a converstation starter for all the sisters fanboys and fangirls we seem to have. The ultimate question I guess? Why do people defend them with fanaticism?

For the same reason all the Space Marine "fanboys and fangirls" defend their army with fanaticism. Personal preferences as expressed in certain aspects of the design behind the faction - in visuals as well as thematically. No army is more "gothic" than the Sisters of Battle in their medieval-looking power armour, and no other army combines the contradictory factors of selfless altruism and murderous zeal as well as they do. Where Space Marines embody vengeance and the Imperial Guard embodies tenacity, the Sisters of Battle embody hope. Yet, in a deliciously but suitable grimdark ironic way, they are simultaneously amongst the most ruthless forces the Imperium may field, and this sort of "contradiction" has an appeal all of its own, considering the overall style of the setting. Last but not least, for many it is also the fact that they are female heroines, which may be perceived as a refreshing change from the standard sci-fi and fantasy fare. The Sisters of Battle are, in essence, an army of Jeanne d'Arc's, and thus act as a symbol for several potentially popular traits, chief amongst them their purity and their conviction.

ClockworkZion delivered an excellent summary in merely two sentences when he compared the value of faith and training against sheer numbers and genetic enhancements. It makes me recall a similar post from Manchu which deserves to be brought up again as well:

 Manchu wrote:
I'd say it's their defining feature. It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" So instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in that power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch.

Pure. Badass.

ClockworkZion wrote:The numbers presented in the 5th Edition rulebook where frankly wrong, or only counted the Militant arms of the Sisters as they have an Order for just about everything.

To be fair, OP did ask only about the Sisters of Battle, and the current rulebook with its numbers only discusses them also.
The 5E BRB was only flawed in that it mentioned three instead of six Major Orders Militant, but as we know this error was not repeated.

As for the size of the Non-Militant Orders, I think the only published information on that topic was this:

"The practitioners of each discipline are organised into one of three major and a great many smaller Orders each utterly dedicated to the pursuit of its own sphere of influence. The members of these Orders are often to be found advising high-ranking members of the Ecclesiarchy and the Adeptus Terra and also accompany Inquisitors of the Ordo Hereticus, many of whom find their highly specialised knowledge invaluable in their own work. Some orders, such as the Orders Dialogous and Famulous, are known to be as large as the Orders Militant, whereas others may be little more than a handful of Sisters pursuing their obscure specialisation."
- WD Liber Sororitas

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:Actually pretty cool. Honestly wasn't aware that the sisters had a squad at every church, and ran every hospital. Makes them seem a little more significant to say the least.

Every church and every hospital? No. Absolutely not. At least not in GW's material.
Actually, I would say that as a purely military force, the Sisters of Battle are very insignificant in the setting simply due to their small numbers. The same can be said about the Space Marines. What matters is that (again, same as the Astartes) they make their presence count where they do show up, such as on Armageddon or during the 13th Black Crusade. The Sisters Militant serve as a symbol of the Ecclesiarchy's power and Mankind's faith, a beacon of hope, and a considerable morale boost for troops and civilians under pressure. That is their primary significance - all the many tasks they actually fulfill? Purity controls, witch hunts, protecting pilgrims, hunting down rogue Marines? That's just the practical part of their job.

In all studio fluff it is the "a single chapter shows up after the imperial guard loses millions, takes care of the planetary resistance in entirety, loses like 50-100 brothers, and then f**ks off"
The only examples to the contrary are against entire dynasties of necrons, or entire hive fleets. You constantly make point to stick to studio fluff, and now you go around the side.......
Make of that what you will.
And said sister kills a hive tyrant? How the hell do you even hurt one of those unless you press like 10000 pounds with your power weapon arm? That's what we call over the top. If it was a living saint it'd be different but a canoness is very different in level of power to a stand out chapter master.
The sister that doesn't flinch? Dies that very second. Not really badass, but being a suicidal zealot. Doing that without being a zealot? That's badass. Still cool though.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
And said sister kills a hive tyrant? How the hell do you even hurt one of those unless you press like 10000 pounds with your power weapon arm?

She did have a power mace, and hit it straight in the face. I don't see how that's really all that unbelievable, a strike from a power weapon, wielded by somebody wearing power armour, right in the face, is going to be a world of hurt for pretty much anything.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
a canoness is very different in level of power to a stand out chapter master

But this was a stand out Canoness. And you have to accept that any army's leaders are going to have stories about them doing heroic, badass stuff. That's standard fare in 40K, really.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
The sister that doesn't flinch? Dies that very second. Not really badass

I disagree. The sheer dedication to their cause exhibited by the Sisters is rather badass, IMO. No matter the odds, even near-death, they fight on, unafraid of death.

Also, the flinching thing was a metaphor, not literal. By not flinching he means doesn't get afraid, not that they don't dodge things.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

And said sister kills a hive tyrant? How the hell do you even hurt one of those unless you press like 10000 pounds with your power weapon arm? That's what we call over the top. If it was a living saint it'd be different but a canoness is very different in level of power to a stand out chapter master.
The sister that doesn't flinch? Dies that very second. Not really badass, but being a suicidal zealot. Doing that without being a zealot? That's badass. Still cool though.

Praxedus is a story that goes back to 2nd Ed Sisters. Either way a Canoness with a Power Maul is WS5, I4, S5, AP4, Concussive. A Hive Tyrant is only WS8, I6, T6 so it can be done. It'd take luck on the Canoness' part to pass those 4++ Invuls but it's not -impossible-. And nothing says the Hive Tyrant hadn't been hurt prior to this, just that she finished the job by caving it's head in. Plus the Canoness' Act of Faith gives Preferred Enemy during the Assault Phase so she re-rolls 1s to try and kill it.

But make of that what you will though.

Sisters don't flinch because they don't need too. They're well trained and well equipped. Each of them wears Power Armor that is just as effective as a Marines, carries a Boltgun that is not only as strong as a Marine's but they can fire just as effectively without any augments or technological help and their faith is so powerful it gives them an Invulnerable Save on the table (Shield of Faith, it's a 6++). They believe that the Emperor protects to the point that it actually happens. A Sister can and will walk away from being hit by a Lascannon through faith alone.

Oh and the Sisters are the only army I know of who has a unit who seek redemption by running into battle clad only in the torn shreds of their old robes while wielding Eviscerators, which are Chainswords with Powerfields that can CLEAVE LANDRAIDERS.

Saint Celestine was actually a Sister Repentia who somehow survived a massacre without a mark on her despite appearing to be dead when they found her. She just got more awesome from there.

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:In all studio fluff it is the "a single chapter shows up after the imperial guard loses millions, takes care of the planetary resistance in entirety, loses like 50-100 brothers, and then f**ks off"

I don't know of any single incident in studio fluff where it happened that way. I know of plenty incidents to the contrary, though. If you want, I'd be game for a one-for-one comparison, especially when you're calling me out this way!

Troike wrote:She did have a power mace, and hit it straight in the face. I don't see how that's really all that unbelievable, a strike from a power weapon, wielded by somebody wearing power armour, right in the face, is going to be a world of hurt for pretty much anything.

My thoughts exactly. I often preach that technology acts as a huge "equaliser" and is more important than physical differences. This is but one example, and I'd argue that 40k merely continues what mankind started to do millennia ago.

ClockworkZion wrote:Sisters don't flinch because they don't need too. They're well trained and well equipped.

And admittedly also very zealous.

Arguably, such attitude has its downsides, but in a world like 40k, it can undoubtedly also be a great boon.


Ooh, also, just dug up another good line regarding what I find fascinating about this army:

"Presenting the Sisters as holy and pure, yet vengeful and uncompromising, in my view compliments the Witch Hunters. On one hand providing an example to Humanity on the very best a person can aspire to, yet on the other showing the necessarily harsh actions Humanity's guardians must take in order to protect its future. By the standards of the 21st century, these girls are fanatical zealots, but in the context of the 41st millennium, they are paragons of virtue, whose every action is a manifestation of the divine will of the God-Emperor of Mankind. It's all a matter of perspective, you see."
- WD #292, Andy Hoare, Designer's Notes

 Troike wrote:

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
And said sister kills a hive tyrant? How the hell do you even hurt one of those unless you press like 10000 pounds with your power weapon arm?

She did have a power mace, and hit it straight in the face. I don't see how that's really all that unbelievable, a strike from a power weapon, wielded by somebody wearing power armour, right in the face, is going to be a world of hurt for pretty much anything.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
a canoness is very different in level of power to a stand out chapter master

But this was a stand out Canoness. And you have to accept that any army's leaders are going to have stories about them doing heroic, badass stuff. That's standard fare in 40K, really.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
The sister that doesn't flinch? Dies that very second. Not really badass

I disagree. The sheer dedication to their cause exhibited by the Sisters is rather badass, IMO. No matter the odds, even near-death, they fight on, unafraid of death.

Also, the flinching thing was a metaphor, not literal. By not flinching he means doesn't get afraid, not that they don't dodge things.

What's the next codex? Tyranids right? GW seems to be moving at unprecedented breakneck speeds in releasing new material, so they might do Sisters very early next year. Who's to say? GW has always been out of touch with the fanbase so they probably wouldn't even know how many supporters a new sisters codex would get them, so they wouldn't announce it ahead of time.
Sisters all have the same haircut? I don't think so. But I actually like the haircut they have to be honest. So whatever.
I'm primarily a chaos player, and I dabble in Word Bearers so I can kinda get to grasps with their fluff. I guess I just don't like the current minis. Like everyone else in the world.......


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynata wrote:

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:In all studio fluff it is the "a single chapter shows up after the imperial guard loses millions, takes care of the planetary resistance in entirety, loses like 50-100 brothers, and then f**ks off"

I don't know of any single incident in studio fluff where it happened that way. I know of plenty incidents to the contrary, though. If you want, I'd be game for a one-for-one comparison, especially when you're calling me out this way!

Troike wrote:She did have a power mace, and hit it straight in the face. I don't see how that's really all that unbelievable, a strike from a power weapon, wielded by somebody wearing power armour, right in the face, is going to be a world of hurt for pretty much anything.

My thoughts exactly. I often preach that technology acts as a huge "equaliser" and is more important than physical differences. This is but one example, and I'd argue that 40k merely continues what mankind started to do millennia ago.

Spoiler:

ClockworkZion wrote:Sisters don't flinch because they don't need too. They're well trained and well equipped.

And admittedly also very zealous.

Arguably, such attitude has its downsides, but in a world like 40k, it can undoubtedly also be a great boon.

Probably the most hilarious example I could give was Captain Titus and his 2 other bros wiping out an entire ork infestation (enemy count on hard is like 8000 for the whole game) and only losing the cool old dude in Space Marine. Actually a game I'll defend all day everday to my linemen friends.
You also know this is a chapter right? With their battle barge a piece that can wipe out planets by themselves. And not nessecarily a thousand brothers either. Some have upwards of 10000. Some also have personal titan legions. And the iron hands have nine of those bros who personally go toe to toe with thirsters who when summoned full power will wipe out a planet filled with mutants slowly on foot (really cool canon black crusade scenario)
I dare you to give an example where they were facing only humans with current tech and got their asses handed to them without dickery worthy of Tzeentch.

Well for a flip side, it's canon that the Blood Angels lost 950 Marines inside of a Space Hulk.

To ordinary Genestealers.

So yeah, the fluff can be silly at times.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
so they might do Sisters very early next year. Who's to say?

Based on the current rumours, and our own speculation, a late 2014 or early 2015 release for the Sisters seems most likely, right now. They do need all-new models and probably a big rules overhaul.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
GW has always been out of touch with the fanbase so they probably wouldn't even know how many supporters a new sisters codex would get them, so they wouldn't announce it ahead of time.

Oh, I'm quite sure that they're aware of the demand for Sisters. Their customer services gets lots of questions about them, and GW staff are usually asked about them at events and such. ClockworkZion also said that, at one point, GW stopped responding to questions about the Sisters, since people just kept asking.

And as for not announcing ahead of time, well...

-Sisters of Battle are definitely in the works, but still some way off, according to Jerv

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?34864-Gamesday-Germany-2013-Master-Roundup/page2

Not an official announcement, but still very encouraging.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
But I actually like the haircut they have to be honest.

Excellent. All hail the holy bowlcut.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
I guess I just don't like the current minis. Like everyone else in the world.......

The SoB minis? Plenty of people like those, myself included. They do seem to be quite divisive as far as opinions go, but they're generally liked enough.

ClockworkZion wrote:
Praxedus is a story that goes back to 2nd Ed Sisters. Either way a Canoness with a Power Maul is WS5, I4, S5, AP4, Concussive. A Hive Tyrant is only WS8, I6, T6 so it can be done. It'd take luck on the Canoness' part to pass those 4++ Invuls but it's not -impossible-. And nothing says the Hive Tyrant hadn't been hurt prior to this, just that she finished the job by caving it's head in. Plus the Canoness' Act of Faith gives Preferred Enemy during the Assault Phase so she re-rolls 1s to try and kill it.

Ha. Whilst I'm not sure that the crunch had all that much bearing on this piece of fluff, your mixing of the two did make me think of how the Sisters would view it in-universe, from a cruch perspective.

"And so did our blessed Canoness pass the 4++ invulnerable saves of the xenos beast, slaying it with her last breath. In this, she was aided by her own Act of Faith, having rolled a four or better during the begining of her assault phase. Ave Imperator".

True, mixing the fluff and the crunch into a single thought was a bit silly, but the crunch is supposed to be an extension of the fluff, is it not? I mean, there may be more of a gap if the numbers had a wider base but frankly it's not impossible to see happen. Just a small miracle instead.

I guess I'm just too pessimistic. I only hope your faith won't end in disappointment, Sister Troike.

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:Probably the most hilarious example I could give was Captain Titus and his 2 other bros wiping out an entire ork infestation (enemy count on hard is like 8000 for the whole game) and only losing the cool old dude in Space Marine. Actually a game I'll defend all day everday to my linemen friends.

As much as I enjoyed that game, that's not "studio fluff". I am well aware that the depiction of factions wavers depending on where you look, which is why I specifically made that distinction.

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:I dare you to give an example where they were facing only humans with current tech and got their asses handed to them without dickery worthy of Tzeentch.

I *can* give you an example of a Marine Chapter getting wiped out by Orks, though.
Which is actually a pretty damn good story, as it not only discards the invulnerability some people ascribe to the Astartes, but also goes to show how far they'd go to make a point regarding their honour.
I confess, I like a bit of tragic in my stories. Another reason for why I fancy the SoB, I suppose.

Also, "personal Titan Legions", really...?

But this isn't a thread about Space Marines.

ClockworkZion wrote:True, mixing the fluff and the crunch into a single thought was a bit silly, but the crunch is supposed to be an extension of the fluff, is it not? I mean, there may be more of a gap if the numbers had a wider base but frankly it's not impossible to see happen. Just a small miracle instead.

I happen to see it in a somewhat similar way, I guess. The way I see it, the fluff is built around the crunch, and both need to synch on some level to make it "believable". Arguably, the TT rules - as much as we should keep in mind that they are but an abstraction - are also the only thing that applies to every army in the same way. No distortion via perspective, no plot armour, just numbers.

 Lynata wrote:
I guess I'm just too pessimistic. I only hope your faith won't end in disappointment, Sister Troike.

Faith aside, looking over the evidence avaliable, I do think that we'll see an update. And, I think this bears mentioning, a lack of solid updates in the past does not mean that we will never see such an update. The modelling issues seem to have been the key factor in this, and they are now resolved, according to the devs.

I'll also clarify that I'm a dude, in case you weren't just referencing the Sisters, there. Which you very well could have been.

ClockworkZion wrote:
True, mixing the fluff and the crunch into a single thought was a bit silly, but the crunch is supposed to be an extension of the fluff, is it not?

I can agree with that. To some extent, anyway. All I was saying is that here, the point was to tell a story about a heroic SoB making a last stand against a powerful foe, crunch considerations probably took a backseat there. But as you've said, crunch and fluff do line up here, so it's a moot point.

But, to continue the analogy, as a named character, Praxedes may well have gotten buffs to her close comabt skills.

ClockworkZion wrote:

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

And said sister kills a hive tyrant? How the hell do you even hurt one of those unless you press like 10000 pounds with your power weapon arm? That's what we call over the top. If it was a living saint it'd be different but a canoness is very different in level of power to a stand out chapter master.
The sister that doesn't flinch? Dies that very second. Not really badass, but being a suicidal zealot. Doing that without being a zealot? That's badass. Still cool though.

Praxedus is a story that goes back to 2nd Ed Sisters. Either way a Canoness with a Power Maul is WS5, I4, S5, AP4, Concussive. A Hive Tyrant is only WS8, I6, T6 so it can be done. It'd take luck on the Canoness' part to pass those 4++ Invuls but it's not -impossible-. And nothing says the Hive Tyrant hadn't been hurt prior to this, just that she finished the job by caving it's head in. Plus the Canoness' Act of Faith gives Preferred Enemy during the Assault Phase so she re-rolls 1s to try and kill it.

But make of that what you will though.

Sisters don't flinch because they don't need too. They're well trained and well equipped. Each of them wears Power Armor that is just as effective as a Marines, carries a Boltgun that is not only as strong as a Marine's but they can fire just as effectively without any augments or technological help and their faith is so powerful it gives them an Invulnerable Save on the table (Shield of Faith, it's a 6++). They believe that the Emperor protects to the point that it actually happens. A Sister can and will walk away from being hit by a Lascannon through faith alone.

Oh and the Sisters are the only army I know of who has a unit who seek redemption by running into battle clad only in the torn shreds of their old robes while wielding Eviscerators, which are Chainswords with Powerfields that can CLEAVE LANDRAIDERS.

Saint Celestine was actually a Sister Repentia who somehow survived a massacre without a mark on her despite appearing to be dead when they found her. She just got more awesome from there.

How can their power armor be just as effective as space marines when they no black carapace?

Niexist wrote:
How can their power armor be just as effective as space marines when they no black carapace?

It isn't, however I think the black carapace is more for the strength enhancement capability of the suit which the SoB version lacks if I remember right.

Niexist wrote:
How can their power armor be just as effective as space marines when they no black carapace?

The Witch Hunters codex notes that the lack of black carapace means that the Sisters can't get the strength enchancement found with Astrartes power armour. However, what the Sisters are using is still ceramite, with the same power source as Astartes armour, so it'd be just as protective. It just wouldn't enhance their strength as much.