Sisters of Battle useless?

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**pretre**

c0j1r0 wrote:
I don't like the current sculpt of the sisters, but that's only because there's only like 3 Battle Sister scupts and the same 3 models get really repetitive when painting. I painted a Sisters army for a commission and was so sick of them by the time I was done.

Umm. That is incorrect. There are WAY more than 3:

**andrewm9**

c0j1r0 wrote:
I don't like the current sculpt of the sisters, but that's only because there's only like 3 Battle Sister scupts and the same 3 models get really repetitive when painting. I painted a Sisters army for a commission and was so sick of them by the time I was done.

Actually there are seven different sculpts for Sisters with bolters.

**ClockworkZion**

c0j1r0 wrote:
I don't like the current sculpt of the sisters, but that's only because there's only like 3 Battle Sister scupts and the same 3 models get really repetitive when painting. I painted a Sisters army for a commission and was so sick of them by the time I was done.

That's actually a misconception that Sisters don't have that many different models.There are in fact there are more than just 3 Battle Sister Sculpts. At one point I did a count of all the currently available unique models:

HQs: 13 Total - Canoness, Jacobus, Kyrinov, Celestine, Diagolus, Hospitaller, Sister with Blessed Banner, 2 Death Cult Assassins, 2 Crusaders, 2 Arco-Flagallants (Yes I know the Battle Conclave shares stuff with the Grey Knights, but so do almost all of the Marine variants so I've included them here for completeness)
Elites: 8 Total - 4 Repentia, Mistress of Repentance, 3 Preachers
Troops: 22 Total - 7 Bolter Sisters, 2 Flamers, 2 Melta, 2 Storm Bolter, Heavy Bolter, Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta, Sister with Simulacrum Imperalis, 5 Sister Superiors
Fast Attack: 5 Total - 2 Seraphim, Seraphim with Hand Flamers, 2 Seraphim Superiors
Heavy Support: 2 Total - Exorcist, Penitent Engine
Dedicated Transports: 1 Total (it's the same model, it just builds two things) - Immolator

Forge World of course adds 3 Flyers, the Repressor and an alternate Exorcist into the mix, but this is about GW's support.

So what's that give Sisters for their line exactly? 51 different models in their line, some that are spread through multiple FOCs. Honestly that's not too bad overall for a line of models from 2nd Edition (save a couple of toys that were added in 3rd). There were a few more variants but those have been discontinued over the years (to include another Canoness model, and a different Banner model).

So there are a fair number of different models out there (I used the GW site and my collection to count up the models).

EDIT: Ninja'd

Double Edit: This is my 600th post even. Nice.

**Psienesis**

Speaking of the Sisters...

I been sharing this around a bit, it's a tumblr-blog dedicated to Sisters of Battle art from all sorts of sources. It's not a super-huge archive or anything right now, but it's got some good pieces in it.

http://spacenuns.tumblr.com/

Also, not my blog, just something I found.

**curran12**

Psienesis wrote:
Speaking of the Sisters...

I been sharing this around a bit, it's a tumblr-blog dedicated to Sisters of Battle art from all sorts of sources. It's not a super-huge archive or anything right now, but it's got some good pieces in it.

http://spacenuns.tumblr.com/

Also, not my blog, just something I found.

Thanks for the link, added that to what I follow, some pretty good stuff in here for art. Even though I have my issues with the "Wolf and Sister" comic, I can appreciate the art style.

**ClockworkZion**

Psienesis wrote:
Speaking of the Sisters...

I been sharing this around a bit, it's a tumblr-blog dedicated to Sisters of Battle art from all sorts of sources. It's not a super-huge archive or anything right now, but it's got some good pieces in it.

http://spacenuns.tumblr.com/

Also, not my blog, just something I found.

Oh neat.

Reminds me that I need to find the time to clean up my collection of images and rename them so I know what they are without opening them.

**Psienesis**

@ curran12

Yeah, I'm with you on Wolf & Sister. I like the art, but I just can't get into the fundamentals of the story.

**ClockworkZion**

Psienesis wrote:
@ curran12

Yeah, I'm with you on Wolf & Sister. I like the art, but I just can't get into the fundamentals of the story.

I'm just glad to see a story where Sisters are being awesome even if a large amount of it reads as impractical or silly.

**curran12**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
@ curran12

Yeah, I'm with you on Wolf & Sister. I like the art, but I just can't get into the fundamentals of the story.

I'm just glad to see a story where Sisters are being awesome even if a large amount of it reads as impractical or silly.

Excuse me, but did I read the wrong comic? All the Sisters do in "Wolf and Sister" are get killed, get saved by big men and watch helplessly as their Cannoness is -INSTANTLY- corrupted.

I could go on a well-trodden rant on this, but the only reason for the Sisters in that comic are to have hot babes to rescue and be protective over.

**ClockworkZion**

curran12 wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
@ curran12

Yeah, I'm with you on Wolf & Sister. I like the art, but I just can't get into the fundamentals of the story.

I'm just glad to see a story where Sisters are being awesome even if a large amount of it reads as impractical or silly.

Excuse me, but did I read the wrong comic? All the Sisters do in "Wolf and Sister" are get killed, get saved by big men and watch helplessly as their Cannoness is -INSTANTLY- corrupted.

I could go on a well-trodden rant on this, but the only reason for the Sisters in that comic are to have hot babes to rescue and be protective over.

Perhaps it's been too long since I've read any of it, or I'm just starved for more Sisters stuff at this point because I could have sword it wasn't that bad. Guess I'll need to re-read it.

Help if it was still being updated too.

**60mm**

inkybones wrote:
They all have the same haircut. Several hundred women with the same haircut, and no complaints? I have trouble buying that!

That killed me! In the military, US that is, women are allowed freedom with their hair as long as it doesn't get past a certain length(or un-natural colors), because the military knows women wouldn't join if they had to have a cookie-cutter haircut like the men. Bahaha! True story, I was there.

It's the female army of 40k, that's about it. I'd probably think they were cooler if they weren't just second-hand SM but I can see why GW went that way. "We want a female choice, let's make a female variant of our most popular army in hopes that it will garner more female customers. And we'll make them fanatically religious, which the Emperor despised, but whatever."

**curran12**

ClockworkZion wrote:

Perhaps it's been too long since I've read any of it, or I'm just starved for more Sisters stuff at this point because I could have sword it wasn't that bad. Guess I'll need to re-read it.

Help if it was still being updated too.

I looked over what was around (I don't think it is still being updated) again just to make sure and, well if you really want, I can put on my literature education and degree/writer hat and really break down how un-awesome the Sisters characters actually are.

**ClockworkZion**

60mm wrote:
It's the female army of 40k, that's about it. I'd probably think they were cooler if they weren't just second-hand SM but I can see why GW went that way. "We want a female choice, let's make a female variant of our most popular army in hopes that it will garner more female customers. And we'll make them fanatically religious, which the Emperor despised, but whatever."

Someone lied to you there. Sisters were never just distaff counterparts to the Marines but a separate thing from the get go. In Rogue Trader they were basically a kind of internal police force who would deal with things like purging Marines. 2nd Edition made them the Militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy and expanded them beyond an internal police force of the Imperium.

**curran12**

60mm wrote:

It's the female army of 40k, that's about it. I'd probably think they were cooler if they weren't just second-hand SM but I can see why GW went that way. "We want a female choice, let's make a female variant of our most popular army in hopes that it will garner more female customers. And we'll make them fanatically religious, which the Emperor despised, but whatever."

Yeeeeeeeeeeah.

No. Not at all.

**Psienesis**

Even most SM Chapters are fanatically religious. The vast majority of them (99%) are not from an era that ever knew the Emperor as a Man, and would be from planets where he is revered as some sort of deity.

And, no, women in the US military cannot wear their hair however they like. It has to maintain a professional, feminine appearance (though the definition of "feminine" is apparently very broad). A woman I was in AIT with at Fort Gordon got the same buzz-cut the rest of us got, and got some sort of disciplinary action taken against her by the CO.

**ClockworkZion**

curran12 wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:

Perhaps it's been too long since I've read any of it, or I'm just starved for more Sisters stuff at this point because I could have sword it wasn't that bad. Guess I'll need to re-read it.

Help if it was still being updated too.

I looked over what was around (I don't think it is still being updated) again just to make sure and, well if you really want, I can put on my literature education and degree/writer hat and really break down how un-awesome the Sisters characters actually are.

No that's fine. I think I was applying the fact that the lead female character wasn't completely useless as "Sisters being done well" on some subconcious level so I could enjoy it.

Guess that's what happens when you run out of stuff to read on them and you start getting desperate.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Psienesis wrote:
Even most SM Chapters are fanatically religious. The vast majority of them (99%) are not from an era that ever knew the Emperor as a Man, and would be from planets where he is revered as some sort of deity.

Actually most Marines aren't religious. At least not in the kind of way the Sisters are. Yes there are a few chapters that are, but most revere the Emperor as a kind of father figure rather than a god.

Psienesis wrote:
And, no, women in the US military cannot wear their hair however they like. It has to maintain a professional, feminine appearance (though the definition of "feminine" is apparently very broad). A woman I was in AIT with at Fort Gordon got the same buzz-cut the rest of us got, and got some sort of disciplinary action taken against her by the CO.

While I was in (I just got out this year) women could buzz their hair off or keep it that short, so it seems the powers that be eventually relaxed on the "women can't be bald!" thing.

**Psienesis**

It's unfortunate, too, because I think a good story could be told about a priory of the Sisters of Battle deploying alongside (though not according to plan) a squad of the nearly-pagan Space Wolves... but this comic ain't that story.

**curran12**

ClockworkZion wrote:

No that's fine. I think I was applying the fact that the lead female character wasn't completely useless as "Sisters being done well" on some subconcious level so I could enjoy it.

Guess that's what happens when you run out of stuff to read on them and you start getting desperate.

In all honesty, I understand where you're coming from. When I first saw it, it looked awesome. And it looked like the Sisters were doing awesome things on first glance.

But if you look it over and think about it some, how exactly are the Sisters portrayed?

In pretty much every scene, they are either background material, or when they are shown fighting, in almost every fight, they are losing. The "Sister" character is notable in this, as she is the most helpless character, made even moreso by not speaking. This is just painfully lazy writing.

Psienesis wrote:
It's unfortunate, too, because I think a good story could be told about a priory of the Sisters of Battle deploying alongside (though not according to plan) a squad of the nearly-pagan Space Wolves... but this comic ain't that story.

Yeah. Instead it is Wolf Brother Man Meatmuscle having to escort a supposed 'veteran' battle Sister around who is utterly helpless and clingy.

**60mm**

No one lied to me, that was my assumption. Was unaware they'd been around so long. I've been into 40k since 2000 but never got into Imperium fluff. Still can't say I see them as anything other than second-rate marines though.

Power Armor?
-Check
SM Weaponry?
-Check
Worse Stats?
-Check
Second-rate SM

I'm not knocking on them for being the female army nor do I have an inherent dislike in anything about them. Just find their design lazy. Like if a race of female Orks came out that were basically Orks with T3 and a different fashion sense. Pop the confetti, here comes something new!

**ClockworkZion**

Psienesis wrote:
It's unfortunate, too, because I think a good story could be told about a priory of the Sisters of Battle deploying alongside (though not according to plan) a squad of the nearly-pagan Space Wolves... but this comic ain't that story.

A lot of good potiental stories out there. I'm still waiting for the BL Novel(s) that follows a young orphan girl through the Scholera, through training as an Adeptus Sororitas, her eventual time as a Superior, her failure and grief that makes her take the Vow of Repentance, her eventual return as a Celestian and then her leading an Order as a Canoness.

I mean if we can have a series of books about a child going to school (Harry Potter) is this so far fetched?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

60mm wrote:
No one lied to me, that was my assumption. Was unaware they'd been around so long. I've been into 40k since 2000 but never got into Imperium fluff. Still can't say I see them as anything other than second-rate marines though.

Power Armor?
-Check
SM Weaponry?
-Check
Worse Stats?
-Check
Second-rate SM

I'm not knocking on them for being the female army or for having an inherent dislike in anything about them. Just find their design lazy. Like if a race of female Orks came out that were basically Orks with T3 and a different fashion sense. Pop the confetti, here comes something new!

Sisters are ordinary human beings who are the pinnacle of what training, equipment and faith can get you WITHOUT being a transhuman mutant called a "Space Marine". They're more like what you'd get if you took Vet Guard, put them in Power Armor and gave them Bolters and made them all religious fanatics than "second-rate Marines".

**curran12**

60mm wrote:
No one lied to me, that was my assumption. Was unaware they'd been around so long. I've been into 40k since 2000 but never got into Imperium fluff. Still can't say I see them as anything other than second-rate marines though.

Power Armor?
-Check
SM Weaponry?
-Check
Worse Stats?
-Check
Second-rate SM

I'm not knocking on them for being the female army nor do I have an inherent dislike in anything about them. Just find their design lazy. Like if a race of female Orks came out that were basically Orks with T3 and a different fashion sense. Pop the confetti, here comes something new!

And yeah, that's demonstrably wrong. I love seeing posts like this, and wish you could come up for a game and see how second rate they are. ;p

Jump infantry that can kick out 4 flame templates/melta shots? Check.
The best HQ in the game for points cost? Check.
Some of the best anti elite infantry weapons in the game? Check.

**60mm**

So instead of putting Veteran soldiers in Power Armor, they decided to toss nuns in instead . . .

That makes zero sense. I know this is a futuristic fantasy game but hat one is just too much for me.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

curran12 wrote:
60mm wrote:
No one lied to me, that was my assumption. Was unaware they'd been around so long. I've been into 40k since 2000 but never got into Imperium fluff. Still can't say I see them as anything other than second-rate marines though.

Power Armor?
-Check
SM Weaponry?
-Check
Worse Stats?
-Check
Second-rate SM

I'm not knocking on them for being the female army nor do I have an inherent dislike in anything about them. Just find their design lazy. Like if a race of female Orks came out that were basically Orks with T3 and a different fashion sense. Pop the confetti, here comes something new!

And yeah, that's demonstrably wrong. I love seeing posts like this, and wish you could come up for a game and see how second rate they are. ;p

Jump infantry that can kick out 4 flame templates/melta shots? Check.
The best HQ in the game for points cost? Check.
Some of the best anti elite infantry weapons in the game? Check.

I've seen them in games. I've seen a single Celestine wipe an Ork army that obviously beat the crap out of the SoB player because she stood back up every turn. I'm not saying they are second-rate or bad on the board. I'm saying they are SM with lower stats and handout the same gear to squads differently. Which they literally are on the board. They are cheaper marines that happen to have an under-costed HQ.

**ClockworkZion**

60mm wrote:
So instead of putting Veteran soldiers in Power Armor, they decided to toss nuns in instead . . .

That makes zero sense. I know this is a futuristic fantasy game but hat one is just too much for me. :shrug:

Okay, so I'm going to make this easy for you to get caught up:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Goge_Vandire < The reason that Sisters exist in universe
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Age_of_Apostasy#.UjzRUYafhuM < The full story of how it happened

And the reason we can't have Vet Guard running around for the Ecclesiarchy is because of a rule that they can't have "Men Under Arms", cue using women to get around the wording because the Ecclesiarchy still NEEDS an army for it's MANY duties.

That and the Guard belong to a different branch of the Imperium.

**Psienesis**

They are nuns who held off, basically, the entire military of the Imperium and several Space Marine Chapters who were attacking the Imperial Palace... for months.

They are nuns who are *also* veteran soldiers.

And the sense that it makes, in-universe, is because they are the sole regular military forces of the Ecclesiarchy, which is not permitted to have "men under arms", following the end of the Age of Apostasy.

**60mm**

Psienesis wrote:
They are nuns who held off, basically, the entire military of the Imperium and several Space Marine Chapters who were attacking the Imperial Palace... for months.

I'm not disbelieving that is in the official fluff, but still find it unbelievable to an extreme. I think its time I exit this thread as I'm just gonna upset SoB fans. Cheers.

**ClockworkZion**

Psienesis wrote:
They are nuns who held off, basically, the entire military of the Imperium and several Space Marine Chapters who were attacking the Imperial Palace... for months.

They are nuns who are *also* veteran soldiers.

And the sense that it makes, in-universe, is because they are the sole regular military forces of the Ecclesiarchy, which is not permitted to have "men under arms", following the end of the Age of Apostasy.

Yup. From the Vandire article:

The Fabricator-General of the Adeptus Mechanicus ordered several regiments of Tech Guard to attack Vandire's Ecclesiarchal Palace on Terra; this force was joined by Space Marines from several chapters, including the Imperial Fists, Black Templars, Soul Drinkers, and Fire Hawks. The assault on the impenetrable fortress that is the palace was difficult - not only due to the fortifications themselves, but also because the Brides of the Emperor had been expanded to a force of over 10,000 elite warriors. The campaign to remove Vandire from power bogged down into a lengthy siege.

That's the Mechanicus and at least FOUR Space Marine chapters. It took the Marines less time to evict the Traitor Legions off of Terra than it did the Sisters of Battle (who ultimately ended the siege) and they were only 10,000 ordinary humans who stood toe to toe with the Marines successfully.

**Psienesis**

60mm wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
They are nuns who held off, basically, the entire military of the Imperium and several Space Marine Chapters who were attacking the Imperial Palace... for months.

I'm not disbelieving that is in the official fluff, but still find it unbelievable to an extreme. I think its time I exit this thread as I'm just gonna upset SoB fans. Cheers.

I'm sorry that you don't want to believe that the Sisters of Battle do with fury, faith and fire what the Space Marines cannot do with all their genetic-manipulated wizardry, but, there you go.

Their kung-fu is, indeed, better than yours.

**ClockworkZion**

Psienesis wrote:
60mm wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
They are nuns who held off, basically, the entire military of the Imperium and several Space Marine Chapters who were attacking the Imperial Palace... for months.

I'm not disbelieving that is in the official fluff, but still find it unbelievable to an extreme. I think its time I exit this thread as I'm just gonna upset SoB fans. Cheers.

I'm sorry that you don't want to believe that the Sisters of Battle do with fury, faith and fire what the Space Marines cannot do with all their genetic-manipulated wizardry, but, there you go.

Their kung-fu is, indeed, better than yours.

The Brides of the Emperor (as they were known at the time) were trained by the best technical and tactical minds the Imperium had to offer. They essentially only do two things when not actively engaged in conflict or on a mission: train and pray. You can bet that many of them do both at the same time too, even now.

I do love how quickly people bail when presented with evidence that Sisters aren't just distaff Marines with worse stats. It plays out like that almost every time.

**60mm**

"I do love how quickly people bail when presented with evidence that Sisters aren't just distaff Marines with worse stats. It plays out like that almost every time."

No, just politely agreeing to disagree. We can't all like the same things and I have no issues with anyone liking SoB.

**ClockworkZion**

60mm wrote:
"I do love how quickly people bail when presented with evidence that Sisters aren't just distaff Marines with worse stats. It plays out like that almost every time."

No, just politely agreeing to disagree. We can't all like the same things and I have no issues with anyone liking SoB.

I'm not saying everyone has to like the same things, but every time I've seen someone claim that Sisters are something along the lines of "watered-down Marines" and are presented with evidence that they're not intended to just be Marines with boobs and worse stats but have an actual place in the game dating back to Rogue Trader and even have a logical and well thought out reason to exist in the setting they split.

That isn't to say you have to like them, but for some reason being told they're wrong with evidence to back it up makes people beat feet rather quickly.