An argument from another thread. I created this thread so we would not be yelled at for being off topic.

The two sides are that:
1. Overwatch is a Shooting phase, and special rules that effect the shooting phase effect overwatch.

2. Overwatch is in the Assault phase, so special rules that effect the shooting phase do not effect overwatch.

(Feel free to yell at me if I have mis-represented you)

Might wanna make it a poll and qoute the relative rules.

The only way it sensibly works - without a marine being able to throw a grenade, fire his bolter AND bolt pistol - is you treat it like a mini shooting phase.

Saldiven wrote:
Might wanna make it a poll and qoute the relative rules.

Good Idea. How do you do that?
Edit: Never mind, I figured it out.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The only way it sensibly works - without a marine being able to throw a grenade, fire his bolter AND bolt pistol - is you treat it like a mini shooting phase.

(I haven't been participating in the other thead, so dunno what's been discussed, but this popped into my head when I ready your post.)

I can agree with that, but is it a new, discreet shooting phase, or is it merely an extension of the previous shooting phase? In other words, to rules or options utilized in the prior shooting phase carry over to the Overwatch shooting, or do they not?

It is a "normal" shooting attack, so has nothing to do with the shooting phase actions taken.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It is a "normal" shooting attack, so has nothing to do with the shooting phase actions taken.

I could go with that.

It depends? I believe most you cant, but probably depends on wording around some rules, for instance, you can't fire overwatch with witchfires, but most likely as they are manifested in a restrictive time frame. Depending on the wording, might serve as a restriction.


Edit;Won't answer poll at this point neways, as its probably better to look at things on a individual basis. Rather a blanket yes or No, which comes back to bite us later

I agree with Nem, but most standard shooting rules are fine. Things that have the phase timing should be disallowed; Witchfires, imperial guard orders etc.

For most of the instances that would fall under the heading of this question, I'm going to go with 'no.'

I vote that it is treated as a normal shooting attack resolved at BS 1, so special rules that affect a normal shooting attack affect it, and those that don't, won't.

I said no as I can't seem to find where it says it's a shooting phase, as far as I know we have 1 shooting phase per player turn, the assault phase isn't the shooting phase.

Well a couple of pieces of wargear for comparison in the Tau Codex:

Multi-Tracker (pg 69)

"A model with a multi-tracker can fire an additional weapon in each Shooting phase."

Command and Control Node (pg 73)
"If a model with this wargear does not shoot during the Shooting phase, all Shooting attacks made by other models in his unit re-roll failed To Hit rolls until the end of the current phase. This cannot be used when firing Overwatch. A Command and Control Node can be used at the same time as a Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite."

So one piece of wargear says in the Shooting phase with no qualifier while the other expressly prohibits use during Overwatch.

My question is that if a wargear or rule benefits the way a model shoots in the Shooting phase doesn't also benefit it during Overwatch (or Interceptor) why does the Command and Control Node need to specify it doesn't work for Overwatch?

An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on." (21)

everything that applies to a normal shooting attack should apply to Overwatch. (Specific exceptions excluded of course).

The multitracker point is moot. If overwatch is not considered a shooting phase, then the restrictions that only happen in a shooting phase dont apply.

The rule that tells you that a model may only fire 1 weapon says you must choose which weapon to shoot, and that you can't shoot more than 1 weapon per shooting phase.

If overwatch isn't a shooting phase, then any model may fire all of its weapon during overwatch.

If overwatch IS a shooting phase, then the multi tracker allows you to fire an additional weapon.

No matter how you spin it, tau models with multitrackers, and other MC models can always fire more than 1 weapon regardless of the phase.

Isn't this fairly obvious?

Is it the shooting phase? No?

Then no, it cant be used.

And Overwatch is NOT a shooting phase, it is a regular shooting attack, made out of standard phase.

Did you ignore my post?

Cite the rule that prevents models from firing multiple weapons. Notice it restricts you to shooting 1 weapon in the SHOOTING PHASE.

If overwatch is not a shooting phase, than any model with more than 1 weapon can fire all of them. ( hello wraithknight with 4 guns)

If it IS a shooting phase then all the rules that affect a shooting phase apply. Multitracker, MC, etc.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The two sides are that:
1. Overwatch is a Shooting phase, and special rules that effect the shooting phase effect overwatch.

2. Overwatch is in the Assault phase, so special rules that effect the shooting phase do not effect overwatch.

That first point might be an argument for allowing shooting phase rules, but it isn't a good one, or the most common. There is nothing to back up the idea of Overwatch being considered a 'shooting phase'.


What the for argument boils down to is simply that all of the shooting rules deal with the shooting phase (There is no 'Shooting' section in the rulebook, just a 'Shooting phase' section) because that's when the majority of your shooting happens. Overwatch is a normal shooting attack (aside from a couple of specific differences) and so anything that applies to a normal shooting attack in the shooting phase should also apply to an overwatch attack.

its an out of sequence shooting attack. Anything that is specifically 'shooting phase' gated is not allowed but all other rules that pertain to shooting are allowed.

Firing 1 weapon is a shooting phase restriction. Are you claiming that marines with a Bolter and bolt pistol can fire both in overwatch since the only restriction to firing 1 weapon is a shooting phase only restriction?

It is resolved like a 'normal shooting attack'. This seems very straightforward to me. How would a normal shooting attack be resolved? Well that's how snapshots are resolved (with some exceptions). It also tells us the normal shooting rules apply.

This does not mean that overwatch is a normal shooting attack, only that it is resolved like one. It is obviously an exception as it is taking place in the assault phase.

I agree with insaniak, the idea that's it is a shooting phase seems entirely fabricated. I have no idea where anyone would have come up with that.

BarBoBot wrote:Firing 1 weapon is a shooting phase restriction. Are you claiming that marines with a Bolter and bolt pistol can fire both in overwatch since the only restriction to firing 1 weapon is a shooting phase only restriction?

It is a part of the 'normal' shooting attack rules. you need those rules to assign wounds and change hits into wounds and all the rest. Why would you think it falls outside the 'normal' rules for shooting attacks?

What is a "'normal' shooting attack"? What page of the rules are "'normal' shooting attacks" defined on? AFAIK the term doesn't really exist, and the only real definition of a "'normal' shooting attack" is "a shooting attack just as if it you were performing it normally, which is in your shooting phase."

Basically, this is a discussion about whether "In the shooting phase... " abilities work on intercept/overwatch. The one that gets discussed the most is Tau Multi Trackers, and Co'tor Shas summed it up well here:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The two sides are that:
1. Overwatch is a Shooting phase, and special rules that effect the shooting phase effect overwatch.
2. Overwatch is in the Assault phase, so special rules that effect the shooting phase do not effect overwatch.

The 'weird' thing here that (allegedly) makes the Multi-tracker point moot, is that the restriction on firing is also 'IN THE SHOOTING PHASE'. So RAW any model can fire all its weapons/grenades/whatever on overwatch. Obviously people don't play this way... which is (allegedly) a tacit acceptance that overwatch is a shooting phase.

So, RAW, overwatch is not a shooting phase, any ability that says 'in the shooting phase' does not work on overwatch... but all models may fire all weapons they have on overwatch.


How people play it is some mixed up version of that, and highly dependent on whether they are on the giving or receiving end of overwatching broadsides.

IMHO, I think the authors intend for every 'in the shooting phase' ability to work for all shooting, but are too lazy/incompetent to word the rules well enough to reflect this. They're still getting used to the idea of overwatch and haven't really cottoned on. Just like it took them a while to word the rules well enough to cope with models hurting themselves in their own movement phase...

I wouldn't sat ever shooting phase rule, just ones that are applicable to making a normal shooting phase attack. In other words no "start of shooting phase" "end of shooting phase" abilities like IG orders etc as they are distinctly phase based and not attack based.

So attack based abilitys yes, phase timed abilities no.

What is a normal shooting attack? How about the one you would normally make in your turn.

As in follow the rules of the shooting phase for making a shooting attack. Ergo no phase timed abilities allowed but attack based ones are ok.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The only way it sensibly works - without a marine being able to throw a grenade, fire his bolter AND bolt pistol - is you treat it like a mini shooting phase.

This. As pointed out Multi trackers are the most common stumbling block (though the identically worded Monstrous Creatures never seemed to raise an eyebrow, nor the similarly worded Walkers until the Tau codex came out). If you say they don't work then models can fire all their weapons as again the restriction to 1 weapon is worded the same as these allowances to fire more than one...

I was going to remain quiet, as I mentioned in the other thread, but because it has been asked yet again I am going to have to write up that rant once more it seems. I did review my old posts and found out the previous rant was corrupted. Seems I was unable to finish it without the post freezing, at the time the computer I was using was faulty, so I left just the foot notes. The core of the problem stemmed from a single sentence that ended with 'and so on.' This wouldn't of been much of a problem if it was found in a fluffy section of the book, but it was smack bang in the section informing us what rules to use to resolve a 'standard shooting attack' being carried out during the Assault Phase.

So I look forward to actually recreating that rant one day, maybe even today....

I was just thinking about this and realized that I am supporting my side against my own interests. When you look at the tau codex, a large amount of stuff says shooting phase. Volley Fire, Command-Link, Advanced Targeting System (battlesuit and vehicle), Multi-tracker, Command and Control Node, Neuroweb system jammer, ., Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite, and arguable Ripple Fire (imagine a riptide shooting out 8 TL shots from it's SMS, as long as it gets it), and the target lock (shooting at a different eligible unit, just for fun).

I wonder if I can change my vote....

Jefffar wrote:
Well a couple of pieces of wargear for comparison in the Tau Codex:

Multi-Tracker (pg 69)

"A model with a multi-tracker can fire an additional weapon in each Shooting phase."

Command and Control Node (pg 73)
"If a model with this wargear does not shoot during the Shooting phase, all Shooting attacks made by other models in his unit re-roll failed To Hit rolls until the end of the current phase. This cannot be used when firing Overwatch. A Command and Control Node can be used at the same time as a Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite."

So one piece of wargear says in the Shooting phase with no qualifier while the other expressly prohibits use during Overwatch.

My question is that if a wargear or rule benefits the way a model shoots in the Shooting phase doesn't also benefit it during Overwatch (or Interceptor) why does the Command and Control Node need to specify it doesn't work for Overwatch?

I find this argument to be much more compelling than either "it has to be" or "it can't be."

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I vote that it is treated as a normal shooting attack resolved at BS 1, so special rules that affect a normal shooting attack affect it, and those that don't, won't.

My Devastator Sarge has a special piece of Wargear that makes one model BS5. This is a special rule/wargear that affects normal shooting attacks. Are you saying that it should affect my Overwatch? Because that goes against all the rules for Snap Shooting.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I vote that it is treated as a normal shooting attack resolved at BS 1, so special rules that affect a normal shooting attack affect it, and those that don't, won't.

My Devastator Sarge has a special piece of Wargear that makes one model BS5. This is a special rule/wargear that affects normal shooting attacks. Are you saying that it should affect my Overwatch? Because that goes against all the rules for Snap Shooting.

Go ahead, the fact that you're snap shooting will still resolve the shot at BS1 just as it would in a normal shooting attack.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I vote that it is treated as a normal shooting attack resolved at BS 1, so special rules that affect a normal shooting attack affect it, and those that don't, won't.

My Devastator Sarge has a special piece of Wargear that makes one model BS5. This is a special rule/wargear that affects normal shooting attacks. Are you saying that it should affect my Overwatch? Because that goes against all the rules for Snap Shooting.

Well, since the FAQ disallows that from modify snapshots, it wouldn't do anything. Only Tau markerlights currently have permission to change snapshot.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I vote that it is treated as a normal shooting attack resolved at BS 1, so special rules that affect a normal shooting attack affect it, and those that don't, won't.

My Devastator Sarge has a special piece of Wargear that makes one model BS5. This is a special rule/wargear that affects normal shooting attacks. Are you saying that it should affect my Overwatch? Because that goes against all the rules for Snap Shooting.

From the most resent FAQ

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules
that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space
Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

My Devastator Sarge has a special piece of Wargear that makes one model BS5. This is a special rule/wargear that affects normal shooting attacks. Are you saying that it should affect my Overwatch?
Because that goes against all the rules for Snap Shooting.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

From the most resent FAQ

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules
that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space
Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No

As you can see from the underlined section of my post, I'm obviously aware of the FAQ and all the rules surrounding Snapping.

My point was, you can't treat it as a "normal" shooting attack, as Prince Raven claims you can, since there are additional rules surrounding Overwatch that may disbar certain special rules and wargear. Like the Signum: not allowed/doesn't do anything.

RAW, there is only one shooting phase,

RAW abilities that are used in the shooting phase, are used in the shooting phase,

there are OTHER more general rules that apply to all shooting, not just in its phase.

RAW overwatch happens in the assault phase, there is no need, for a second shooting phase, nor is one in the rules.

RAI/RAW is very much that overwatch should be "snap shots" and not very effective, and that abilities that specifically only apply to shooting phase, do not apply to the assault phase.

is we start using terms like "assault phase" and shooting phase, and just start inventing our own "shooting phase part 2" and assault phase part 2, whats to stop us from calling "running" in the "shooting phase" movement phase part two?

we can move in the shooting phase just fine without making up new rules,

we can shoot in the assault phase just fine without making up new rules, which is exactly what one of the options in this thread does.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

My Devastator Sarge has a special piece of Wargear that makes one model BS5. This is a special rule/wargear that affects normal shooting attacks. Are you saying that it should affect my Overwatch?
Because that goes against all the rules for Snap Shooting.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

From the most resent FAQ

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules
that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space
Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No

As you can see from the underlined section of my post, I'm obviously aware of the FAQ and all the rules surrounding Snapping.

My point was, you can't treat it as a "normal" shooting attack, as Prince Raven claims you can, since there are additional rules surrounding Overwatch that may disbar certain special rules and wargear. Like the Signum: not allowed/doesn't do anything.

I am not sure why you would bring it up then. Even in a normal shooting attack during the shooting phase, if you are forced to Snap Fire a heavy weapon, you still couldn't use the Signum to buff your chance to hit. The limiting the factor in this case isn't overwatch, but Snapshots, which would have the same effect either way.

Also, what additional rules for overwatch are you referring to?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

My Devastator Sarge has a special piece of Wargear that makes one model BS5. This is a special rule/wargear that affects normal shooting attacks. Are you saying that it should affect my Overwatch?
Because that goes against all the rules for Snap Shooting.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

From the most resent FAQ

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules
that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space
Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No

As you can see from the underlined section of my post, I'm obviously aware of the FAQ and all the rules surrounding Snapping.

My point was, you can't treat it as a "normal" shooting attack, as Prince Raven claims you can, since there are additional rules surrounding Overwatch that may disbar certain special rules and wargear. Like the Signum: not allowed/doesn't do anything.

I'm confused by what you're trying to say here, how is a Snap Shot made during overwatch any different from a Snap Shot made in a normal shooting attack? The signum does not modify the shot in both scenarios as that is a feature of Snap Shots, not overwatch.

the difference being, overwatch gives you permision to shoot, via snap shots, in the ASSAULT PHASE, and the assault phase only.


please, show me where in the over watch rules it lets you overwatch in the "shooting phase"

so that you can continue to, incorrectly, apply rules that ONLY apply to the shooting phase, to the assault phase.

So I can Run during Overwatch if it's a Shooting Phase, right?

Darkness - so I can fire a Bolger, bolt pistol and throw a grenade, with every member of a chaos marine unit .? After all, the restriction on firing only one weapon is only found in the shooting phase.

one weapon is the NORMAL SHOOTING RULE, that overwatch conforms too nosferratu,
your above point is 100% irrelevent and not correct
total red herring argument,

overwatch is different from NORMAL shooting,
in a very few, NAMED ways,
IE: done in the ASSAULT phase, even in opponents turn, and using snap shots, and special rules for templates.

you are now making up rules about certain normal shooting rules not applying to overwatch regarding # of weapons fired.

it in no way helps your incorrect arguement, and in no way helps prove that there are TWO shooting phases,

nothing will prove there are two shooting phases, because there simply are not two.

address this GLARING and OBVOIUS problem with you using a rule that ONLY aplies in the "shooting phase" and using it in the "assault phase"

 easysauce wrote:
one weapon is the NORMAL SHOOTING RULE, that overwatch conforms too nosferratu,

The rule limiting models to firing a single weapon applies specifically to the Shooting phase.

it in no way helps your incorrect arguement, and in no way helps prove that there are TWO shooting phases,

nothing will prove there are two shooting phases, because there simply are not two.

This is correct. Overwatch is not a Shooting phase. It is a normal shooting attack, though... which follows the rules for shooting, which are outlined in the 'Shooting Phase' section.

address this GLARING and OBVOIUS problem with you using a rule that ONLY aplies in the "shooting phase" and using it in the "assault phase"

 insaniak wrote:

This has already been addressed. ALL of the shooting rules apply to the Shooting phase. Overwatch gives you permission to make a shooting attack in the Assault phase.

no, it has not been addressed,

multi tracker, is NOT part of the BRB's "shooting rules", cite otherwise please (its not, this is 100%)

in actualy RAW, multi tracker is not applied when the model uses "shooting rules" it is applied in the "shooting phase"


Even if it had been, it is still NOT permission to use "shooting phase" ONLY rules, in the assault phase.

overwatch has different rules from normal shooting, although they may share SOME of the rules, IE # of shots, how wounds are worked out, there are noted differences.

being: snap shots, templates, and done in the assault phase. we are told, to conform to all other rules for shooting, with the # of weapons being one of those rules we are told to adhere to. the # of weapons a model can fire, is the # it can fire, it is not a "shooting phase" only rule... and even if it was as you assert, then you have no permission to shoot ANY weapons in overwatch, not the "OMG DERP I CAN SHOOT EM ALL CAUSE: REASONS!"

as you are blatently ignoring that overwatch tells you to follow the shooting rules, including how the relate to # of weapons fired.

we are told to use shooting rules, in the assault phase.

that is NOT defacto equating "shooting phase" to "assault phase"

and is in no way shape or form, a permission to apply "shooting phase" only special rules, to "assault phase"

 easysauce wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

This has already been addressed. ALL of the shooting rules apply to the Shooting phase. Overwatch gives you permission to make a shooting attack in the Assault phase.

no, it has not been addressed,

multi tracker, is NOT part of the BRB's "shooting rules", cite otherwise please (its not, this is 100%)

in actualy RAW, multi tracker is not applied when the model uses "shooting rules" it is applied in the "shooting phase"


Even if it had been, it is still NOT permission to use "shooting phase" ONLY rules, in the assault phase.

Well firing only one weapon is a "shooting phase" ONLY rule

so, by your logic, models are not restricted to this in the assault phase and can shoot all of their weapons and throw a grenade each.

That is 2 bolter shots, 1 bolt postil shot, one krak grenade for overwatch for Space Wolf Troops and then they get counter attack and 2 attacks each in the CC (So 3 attacks on the turn they are charged 2 the rest of the time). Nice...

no they are, you are only given specific permission from overwatch to change a few rules regarding shooting...

claiming it "means you can fire all the weapons you want" is total red herring, irrelevent.

by your inncorrect reading, the out come would be NO weapons can be fired, not all weapons.

you keep willfully ignoring that fact..

we are TOLD to shoot in the assault phase, by the overwatch rules.

there are a few, named exceptions to us following the shooting rules.

# of shots, is NOT one of them, you have no rules to back up your "fire all my weapons" assertation.


we are given permission, to shoot a weapon in the shooting phase.

overwatch lets us shoot it when assaulted, in the assault phase,

we have been given specific permission to shoot in the assault phase, with some restrictions, but generally as we would in the shooting phase.

this still does not equate to other, NON BRB shooting rules, that specifically refer to "shooting phase" as being applicable in the assault phase.

otherwise,

ANY codex power, or rule, that says I can use it in shooting/movement/assault phase, can be used in any phase you want.

at least acording to you, which is 100% false.

We are given permission to fire a number of times listed on a weapons profile.

There is a restriction in the shooting phase that restricts each model to only one weapon...

It actually does mean "you can fire all the weapons you want" as we have permission already, and a restriction only for a phase we are not in...

 DeathReaper wrote:
We are given permission to fire a number of times listed on a weapons profile.

There is a restriction in the shooting phase that restricts each model to only one weapon...

It actually does mean "you can fire all the weapons you want" as we have permission already, and a restriction only for a phase we are not in...

Overwatch says that it is affected by the normal shooting restrictions IN THE RULE!
Overwatch is in the ASSAULT PHASE so things that affect the shooting phase don't affect it.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Overwatch says that it is affected by the normal shooting restrictions IN THE RULE!
Overwatch is in the ASSAULT PHASE so things that affect the shooting phase don't affect it.

Yes, that's exactly the point. There is no rule in the shooting rules that mentions how many weapons a model can fire.

There is a rule in the Weapons section that restricts models to firing a single weapon in the Shooting phase.

If Shooting phase specific rules don't apply to Overwatch, then there is no rule limiting how many weapons a model can fire in Overwatch.

@easysauce, you need to calm down dude....

regarding the post:

the rules for overwatch can be found in their entirety on p21.

it clearly states that this is treated as normal shooting attack that uses all the normal rules for shooting.

it then outlines the restrictions, these include no moral or pinning is caused even if the weapon would normally cause them and that a unit can only fire one overwatch and cannot be locked in combat.

seems to me that the normal shooting rules would be everything to do with shooting unless otherwise specified.

I have decided to sent a e-mail to GW rules (Gamefaqs@gwplc.com) with questions about unresolved issues I have had, this among them. I'll post a reply if I get one.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Darkness - so I can fire a Bolger, bolt pistol and throw a grenade, with every member of a chaos marine unit .? After all, the restriction on firing only one weapon is only found in the shooting phase.

Agreed, which was my point.

 easysauce wrote:
multi tracker, is NOT part of the BRB's "shooting rules", cite otherwise please (its not, this is 100%)

Why does that make any difference? Overwatch doesn't tell you that the only shooting rules you can apply are those in the BRB.

in actualy RAW, multi tracker is not applied when the model uses "shooting rules" it is applied in the "shooting phase"

Yes, indeed it is. But so is every other rule for shooting.

Seriously, pick up your rulebook and try to find the 'Shooting' section. Let us know if you find it.

Even if it had been, it is still NOT permission to use "shooting phase" ONLY rules, in the assault phase.

Then you have no permission to shoot at all in the assault phase, and Overwatch does nothing.

... we are told, to conform to all other rules for shooting, with the # of weapons being one of those rules we are told to adhere to. the # of weapons a model can fire, is the # it can fire, it is not a "shooting phase" only rule... and even if it was as you assert, then you have no permission to shoot ANY weapons in overwatch, not the "OMG DERP I CAN SHOOT EM ALL CAUSE: REASONS!"

You can't have it both ways. If 'shooting phase only' rules don't apply to Overwatch, why are you applying the rule limiting you to one weapon?

Go have a look at the actual rule. It is quite specific to the shooting phase.

we are told to use shooting rules, in the assault phase.

that is NOT defacto equating "shooting phase" to "assault phase"

No, actually, it really is. Because the 'Shooting phase' rules are where we find the rules for shooting. So you apply those rules to the shooting you make on Overwatch. The only difference, other than the exceptions specifically made by the Overwatch rule, is the phase in which it happens.

Yet that is no longer a normal shooting attack, is it?

Treating it as a NORMAL shooting attack is fairly easy - pretend it is the shooting phase, and carry on. As soon as you say you cannot use THIS shooting phase rule, you are inconsistent if you then only allow models to fire one weapon (2 if MC)

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I have decided to sent a e-mail to GW rules (Gamefaqs@gwplc.com) with questions about unresolved issues I have had, this among them. I'll post a reply if I get one.

Don't expect anything useful from it. Rules questions emailed to GW are answered by one of the mail order guys. It's ultimately no different to walking into a GW store and asking one of the staff... which, ultimately, is no more likely to get you a good answer than the thread here. GW don't give 'official' rules answers other than through the FAQs.

 insaniak wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I have decided to sent a e-mail to GW rules (Gamefaqs@gwplc.com) with questions about unresolved issues I have had, this among them. I'll post a reply if I get one.

Don't expect anything useful from it. Rules questions emailed to GW are answered by one of the mail order guys. It's ultimately no different to walking into a GW store and asking one of the staff... which, ultimately, is no more likely to get you a good answer than the thread here. GW don't give 'official' rules answers other than through the FAQs.

It's like the New York lottery, hey, you never know.
I do agree that nothing will probably come of it, but just in case. Really, GW needs to get something in place that would resolve issues like this.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I do agree that nothing will probably come of it, but just in case. Really, GW needs to get something in place that would resolve issues like this.

They are currently hiring an Editor, according to their careers page... Although going by the ad they appear to be looking for someone who is a good 'fit' rather than someone who actually has any sort of experience and or qualifications for the job, so who knows what will come from that.


Email or phone support for rules issues is never really going to work, because for everyone who says 'I called GW and they said...' there's giong to be someone else who says 'Prove it'.

The ideal response would be something like is done by other games - you have a section on the company's own forums for rules issues, and either the guys who write the rules answer questions there, or a group of 'rules experts' vetted by the company do so, and confirm tricky issues with the studio. The problems with GW implementing such a scheme though are that they (a) closed down their forums years ago because people weren't universally positive about GW's product on them and (b) it would require GW to take their own games with some level of seriousness.

i put Yes because there are some rules that say Shooting Phase, and also say it does not work in Overwatch (Tau M3S or CNC Node come to mind), while others leave out the Overwatch part.

Monstrous Creatures are in the same boat as Tau suits, technically. Its worded the same way (specifically saying Shooting Phase).

 DarknessEternal wrote:
So I can Run during Overwatch if it's a Shooting Phase, right?

It's not a shooting phase, it's a "normal shooting attack", so you can If you have a special rule that allows you to run during a shooting attack.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
So I can Run during Overwatch if it's a Shooting Phase, right?

It's not a shooting phase, it's a "normal shooting attack", so you can If you have a special rule that allows you to run during a shooting attack.

Like the Eldar? Although I am fairly certain that it is not the intent, and will let the local word smiths figure Battle Focus and overwatch out. It would however make them much harder to pin down in combat and match the fluff of fighting ghosts match the table top play.

The cans of worms we open when we dissect rules that are poorly written.

Battle Focus allows you to both run and shoot in the shooting phase, not run while simultaneously making a shooting attack, so no.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yet that is no longer a normal shooting attack, is it?

Treating it as a NORMAL shooting attack is fairly easy - pretend it is the shooting phase, and carry on. As soon as you say you cannot use THIS shooting phase rule, you are inconsistent if you then only allow models to fire one weapon (2 if MC)

PrinceRaven wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
So I can Run during Overwatch if it's a Shooting Phase, right?

It's not a shooting phase, it's a "normal shooting attack", so you can If you have a special rule that allows you to run during a shooting attack.

I agree with both of these stances. I would add that I'm fine with treating it as 'a min- shooting phase' if that helps people conceptualize it as that actually does fit but I would add to that it is 'only in regards to the shooting attack' which is the proper context given in the overwatch rules. No running, the DoM will not suck more of your soul out, etc.

As I would say it- The shooting attack is preformed as if it were the shooting phase.

There seems to be no concensous yet, the poll is at 50-50.

You won't get a consensus on this until GW FAQ it, because the people on both sides of this one each think that the rules are self-evident.

 insaniak wrote:
You won't get a consensus on this until GW FAQ it, because the people on both sides of this one each think that the rules are self-evident.

It's kind of a conflict between RAW and Rules as Perceived. This is probebly the reason that in the first tau codex they had to put a clarification "The plasma rifle does not Get Hot.", because most people would assume it does. RAW is that case stated that it would not, but all peoples experiences with plasma is that it did. In this case RAW says that abilities do not affect, but peoples experiences say that abilities always affect shooting.
I don't think that abilities do affect it, but I would love it if they errataed it so it did, that would make my tau army that much better.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
It's kind of a conflict between RAW and Rules as Perceived.

It's really not. It's just a conflict between how some people read the RAW, and how some other people read the RAW.

RAW is that case stated that it would not, but all peoples experiences with plasma is that it did. In this case RAW says that abilities do not affect, but peoples experiences say that abilities always affect shooting.

This is not the case. It is about applying the rules consistently. If you rule that multi trackers don't work then you HAVE to also rule that the firing 1 weapon per shooting phase restriction also doesn't work. It causes lots of other issues as all the shooting rules refer to the shooting phase.

The real issue is that a "normal shooting attack" is not clearly defined. Some people concentrate on the wording of the abilities and wargear but ignore the similar or indeed identical wording on other standard shooting rules that they assume must also apply. So those on the side of these abilities working are just consistently ruling that identical worded rules interact with overwatch in identical ways. Whilst others assume that "normal shooting attack" means that all these shooting phase rules apply but arbitrarily decide that other identically worded rules do not.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with FlingitNow.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with FlingitNow.

really you shouldn't have a mind set that he/she will always be incorrect on any given ruling even if you find yourself disagreeing a lot, everyone is entitled to an opinion on something but the stumbling block is that they should also be willing to accept when it is an incorrect assertion.

with regards to the post, to people stating that a normal shooting attack is not effected by rules that govern the shooting phase, can I ask you what is a normal shooting attack?

if you can provide a page reference number in the BRB I would appreciate it as I am incapable of finding one it would seem.

That was just a joke, I've actually found myself agreeing with FlingitNow on several occasions beforehand, we just also happen to disagree often.

Yes a "normal shooting attack" isn't defined by the rulebook, so in this case RAI can be useful. I say that a normal shooting attack is one made by the rules for making a shooting attack in the shooting phase, does anyone dispute this?

Yeah I took no offense at Prince Ravens comment. I think the 3 of us agree the issue is fundamentally they don't tell us what "normal shooting attack" means. Prince Raven's definition seems the most obvious (and the one I'd use).

 insaniak wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
It's kind of a conflict between RAW and Rules as Perceived.

It's really not. It's just a conflict between how some people read the RAW, and how some other people read the RAW.

It's a conflict between RAW (what it is) and how people PERCIVE the rules. I was just commenting on how the rules are PERCEIVED. I think you misunderstood me there.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

It's a conflict between RAW (what it is) and how people PERCIVE the rules. I was just commenting on how the rules are PERCEIVED. I think you misunderstood me there.

No, I understood you. I just disagree... Because which interpretation here is correct is entirely down to perception. The conflict isn't between RAW and perception, because both sides perceive their interpretation as RAW. The conflict is between two different interpretations of the RAW.

 insaniak wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

It's a conflict between RAW (what it is) and how people PERCIVE the rules. I was just commenting on how the rules are PERCEIVED. I think you misunderstood me there.

No, I understood you. I just disagree... Because which interpretation here is correct is entirely down to perception. The conflict isn't between RAW and perception, because both sides perceive their interpretation as RAW. The conflict is between two different interpretations of the RAW.

That makes more seance, I thought I just didn't say it in a way that was understandable.

Co'tor Shas do you believe that the restriction to firing just one weapon shouldn't stand? If it should why would it stand and not the multitracker? Using the words of those 2 rules please explain your standpoint.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Co'tor Shas do you believe that the restriction to firing just one weapon shouldn't stand? If it should why would it stand and not the multitracker? Using the words of those 2 rules please explain your standpoint.

... What?

So you think multitrakers don't work right? Due to the wording "Shooting phase" right?

Given that the wording on only shooting 1 weapon in the weapons section page 51 "if a model has more than one Shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot - he cannot fire both in the same Shooting phase" emphasis mine. So if you discount one rule for the Shooting phase wording surely you agree you must discount the other? If not why not?

I think he was arguing that they did work....

No he's definitely stated that they don't:

"I don't think that abilities do affect it, but I would love it if they errataed it so it did, that would make my tau army that much better."

apologies, thought he has changed his opinion, carry on

Yeah, I don't think they would work, but I would love it if they did.

From what I'm getting is its a damned if you do, damned if you don't in the rules.

If you don't allow for things to apply things that apply in the shooting phase for overwatch, you can fire any number of weapons from any models.

If you do allow for rules that apply in the shooting phase, you can apply multitrackers and MC, but not the other tau wargear because they disallow use in overwatch.

I do agree, things must be applied consistently. You can't just arbitrarily apply or not apply a rule.

So where is the 'damned if you do'coming from, then? Allowing multi trackers in overwatch doesn't break the game, at least from a mechanical stand point.

Well without a spelled out definition, thinking critically, what could a normal shooting attack be referring to?

I don't generally say this on dakka but come on... The obvious answer is obvious.
-When does shooting normally happen? The Shooting Phase.
-What are the normal shooting rules? The ones in the Shooting Phase section.
-How many weapons can a model normally shoot? Check shooting phase rules and SR's
-Etc.

Even in RAW there is room for interpretation and some basic assumption of intent. The general assumption that the rules are intended to have an effect is often paramount in a RAW debate and is quite accepted as a basic premise that should be accounted for as fact. With that in mind dismissing 'normal shooting' as undefined is not acceptable as it would cause Overwatch to be dysfunctional. No rules for normal shooting in this system would equal no Overwatch due to no permission to shoot(permissive rule set). I don't know why everyone is going on about shooting all their weapons and such. If the shooting phase rules do not apply as if in the shooting phase there is no permission to shoot.

That normal shooting is not specifically defined does not mean it is completely undefined. We are left to take the words at face value, look at sentence structure and determine meaning. So I repeat, think critically and rationally about what normal shooing is and you'll have your answer.

If you are in a car simulator and I tell you to 'drive normally' do you suddenly not know what I mean because you are not in a car? No, you know exactly what I mean and what to do(assuming you indeed know how to drive a car already). Normal driving is done in a car just like normal shooting is done in the shooting phase. This is not rocket science. This is 'normal English' and should not require several pages on dakka to comprehend a not-specifically-defined concept of 'normal'. It is often used in 'normal' communication and we should all know what it means.

Normal shooting is done in the shooting phase, proceed the same way for Overwatch in the assault phase. That is all.

 insaniak wrote:
So where is the 'damned if you do'coming from, then? Allowing multi trackers in overwatch doesn't break the game, at least from a mechanical stand point.

I was more referring to if you allow shooting phase rules or not, you would be able to fire multiple weapons. Since both the permission to fire only one weapon, and use multitrackers, are tied to the shooting phase.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Yeah, I don't think they would work, but I would love it if they did.

So do you believe any model can fire all its weapons in the shooting phase? If not why not?

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Yeah, I don't think they would work, but I would love it if they did.

So do you believe any model can fire all its weapons in the shooting phase? If not why not?

I think that any model without special wargear or rules (such as multitrackers or being a MC) can fire one weapon in the shooting phase, because it is in the rulebook. I also think that those same abilities do not affect overwatch if they say "Shooting phase" instead of something along the lines of whenever it can shoot.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Yeah, I don't think they would work, but I would love it if they did.

So do you believe any model can fire all its weapons in the shooting phase? If not why not?

I think that any model without special wargear or rules (such as multitrackers or being a MC) can fire one weapon in the shooting phase, because it is in the rulebook. I also think that those same abilities do not affect overwatch if they say "Shooting phase" instead of something along the lines of whenever it can shoot.

So your saying a Space Marine should be able to shoot his Bolter, Bolt Pistol, and throw a Grenade in overwatch?

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Yeah, I don't think they would work, but I would love it if they did.

So do you believe any model can fire all its weapons in the shooting phase? If not why not?

I think that any model without special wargear or rules (such as multitrackers or being a MC) can fire one weapon in the shooting phase, because it is in the rulebook. I also think that those same abilities do not affect overwatch if they say "Shooting phase" instead of something along the lines of whenever it can shoot.

So you believe Crisis suits can fire all their weapons in overwatch? And that a Space marine can fire his bolter and bolt pistol in overwatch? If not why not?

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Yeah, I don't think they would work, but I would love it if they did.

So do you believe any model can fire all its weapons in the shooting phase? If not why not?

I think that any model without special wargear or rules (such as multitrackers or being a MC) can fire one weapon in the shooting phase, because it is in the rulebook. I also think that those same abilities do not affect overwatch if they say "Shooting phase" instead of something along the lines of whenever it can shoot.

So you believe Crisis suits can fire all their weapons in overwatch? And that a Space marine can fire his bolter and bolt pistol in overwatch? If not why not?

No, because it is the Assault phase not the Shooting phase. I'm not sure how it is worded (I don't have my rulebook with me), but I think they are limited to the usual one weapon.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Yeah, I don't think they would work, but I would love it if they did.

So do you believe any model can fire all its weapons in the shooting phase? If not why not?

I think that any model without special wargear or rules (such as multitrackers or being a MC) can fire one weapon in the shooting phase, because it is in the rulebook. I also think that those same abilities do not affect overwatch if they say "Shooting phase" instead of something along the lines of whenever it can shoot.

So you believe Crisis suits can fire all their weapons in overwatch? And that a Space marine can fire his bolter and bolt pistol in overwatch? If not why not?

No, because it is the Assault phase not the Shooting phase. I'm not sure how it is worded (I don't have my rulebook with me), but I think they are limited to the usual one weapon.

That is actually the crux of the problem. You are only limited to firing one weapon in the "Shooting Phase". If we prevent rules that only work in the "Shooting Phase" from affecting Overwatch, then the only thing that limits the number of weapons you can shoot is also disregarded.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Yeah, I don't think they would work, but I would love it if they did.

So do you believe any model can fire all its weapons in the shooting phase? If not why not?

I think that any model without special wargear or rules (such as multitrackers or being a MC) can fire one weapon in the shooting phase, because it is in the rulebook. I also think that those same abilities do not affect overwatch if they say "Shooting phase" instead of something along the lines of whenever it can shoot.

So you believe Crisis suits can fire all their weapons in overwatch? And that a Space marine can fire his bolter and bolt pistol in overwatch? If not why not?

No, because it is the Assault phase not the Shooting phase. I'm not sure how it is worded (I don't have my rulebook with me), but I think they are limited to the usual one weapon.

Get your rulebook and find the rule about only firing 1 weapon. You will see that it says you can only fire 1 gun in the shooting phase.

Since you want to treat overwatch as an assault phase with shooting attacks, then every model with more than 1 weapon may shoot them all.

It's literally what the whole thread is about.

Read the actual rules, then come back with your opinion, but don't argue a point that you haven't even read the rules for...

 FlingitNow wrote:
So you think multitrakers don't work right? Due to the wording "Shooting phase" right?

Given that the wording on only shooting 1 weapon in the weapons section page 51 "if a model has more than one Shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot - he cannot fire both in the same Shooting phase" emphasis mine. So if you discount one rule for the Shooting phase wording surely you agree you must discount the other? If not why not?

I even quoted the relevant rule on the very page we were discussing it.

 Nilok wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Yeah, I don't think they would work, but I would love it if they did.

So do you believe any model can fire all its weapons in the shooting phase? If not why not?

I think that any model without special wargear or rules (such as multitrackers or being a MC) can fire one weapon in the shooting phase, because it is in the rulebook. I also think that those same abilities do not affect overwatch if they say "Shooting phase" instead of something along the lines of whenever it can shoot.

So you believe Crisis suits can fire all their weapons in overwatch? And that a Space marine can fire his bolter and bolt pistol in overwatch? If not why not?

No, because it is the Assault phase not the Shooting phase. I'm not sure how it is worded (I don't have my rulebook with me), but I think they are limited to the usual one weapon.

That is actually the crux of the problem. You are only limited to firing one weapon in the "Shooting Phase". If we prevent rules that only work in the "Shooting Phase" from affecting Overwatch, then the only thing that limits the number of weapons you can shoot is also disregarded.

Is it really worded like that? GW really needs to get an editor.

Yes and its not in the shooting phase rules its in the weapons rules on page 51. So if multitrackers don't work then everyone can fire all their weapons in overwatch.

So until they FAQ or Errata it, either suits can fire two weapons (which would be ridiculous with 2 burst cannons, especially if one was twinlinked), or they can fire all weapon (usually 2 anyway). Either way tau win.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
So until they FAQ or Errata it, either suits can fire two weapons (which would be ridiculous with 2 burst cannons, especially if one was twinlinked), or they can fire all weapon (usually 2 anyway). Either way tau win.

Worse if a Tau player is trying to abuse the no "Shooting Phase" rules in overwatch by loading a single crisis suit with 3 flamers, protecting units from being assaulted with Supporting Fire. 3d3 flamer hits can dissuade a lot of squishy units.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
So until they FAQ or Errata it, either suits can fire two weapons (which would be ridiculous with 2 burst cannons, especially if one was twinlinked), or they can fire all weapon (usually 2 anyway). Either way tau win.

Yes, an army that is specifically set up to be able to counter being charged has rules that benefit them when being charged. That really shouldn't be a big surprise.

The only sensible conclusion from all of this is to assume that the Overwatch attack is treated like a normal shooting attack (as the rules say to do), and that this means that any rule that would normally apply to that unit's shooting is applied to the Overwatch, unless actually specified otherwise.