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An argument from another thread. I created this thread so we would not be yelled at for being off topic.

The two sides are that:
1. Overwatch is a Shooting phase, and special rules that effect the shooting phase effect overwatch.

2. Overwatch is in the Assault phase, so special rules that effect the shooting phase do not effect overwatch.

(Feel free to yell at me if I have mis-represented you)

Might wanna make it a poll and qoute the relative rules.

The only way it sensibly works - without a marine being able to throw a grenade, fire his bolter AND bolt pistol - is you treat it like a mini shooting phase.

Saldiven wrote:
Might wanna make it a poll and qoute the relative rules.

Good Idea. How do you do that?
Edit: Never mind, I figured it out.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The only way it sensibly works - without a marine being able to throw a grenade, fire his bolter AND bolt pistol - is you treat it like a mini shooting phase.

(I haven't been participating in the other thead, so dunno what's been discussed, but this popped into my head when I ready your post.)

I can agree with that, but is it a new, discreet shooting phase, or is it merely an extension of the previous shooting phase? In other words, to rules or options utilized in the prior shooting phase carry over to the Overwatch shooting, or do they not?

It is a "normal" shooting attack, so has nothing to do with the shooting phase actions taken.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It is a "normal" shooting attack, so has nothing to do with the shooting phase actions taken.

I could go with that.

It depends? I believe most you cant, but probably depends on wording around some rules, for instance, you can't fire overwatch with witchfires, but most likely as they are manifested in a restrictive time frame. Depending on the wording, might serve as a restriction.


Edit;Won't answer poll at this point neways, as its probably better to look at things on a individual basis. Rather a blanket yes or No, which comes back to bite us later

I agree with Nem, but most standard shooting rules are fine. Things that have the phase timing should be disallowed; Witchfires, imperial guard orders etc.

For most of the instances that would fall under the heading of this question, I'm going to go with 'no.'

I vote that it is treated as a normal shooting attack resolved at BS 1, so special rules that affect a normal shooting attack affect it, and those that don't, won't.

I said no as I can't seem to find where it says it's a shooting phase, as far as I know we have 1 shooting phase per player turn, the assault phase isn't the shooting phase.

Well a couple of pieces of wargear for comparison in the Tau Codex:

Multi-Tracker (pg 69)

"A model with a multi-tracker can fire an additional weapon in each Shooting phase."

Command and Control Node (pg 73)
"If a model with this wargear does not shoot during the Shooting phase, all Shooting attacks made by other models in his unit re-roll failed To Hit rolls until the end of the current phase. This cannot be used when firing Overwatch. A Command and Control Node can be used at the same time as a Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite."

So one piece of wargear says in the Shooting phase with no qualifier while the other expressly prohibits use during Overwatch.

My question is that if a wargear or rule benefits the way a model shoots in the Shooting phase doesn't also benefit it during Overwatch (or Interceptor) why does the Command and Control Node need to specify it doesn't work for Overwatch?

An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on." (21)

everything that applies to a normal shooting attack should apply to Overwatch. (Specific exceptions excluded of course).

The multitracker point is moot. If overwatch is not considered a shooting phase, then the restrictions that only happen in a shooting phase dont apply.

The rule that tells you that a model may only fire 1 weapon says you must choose which weapon to shoot, and that you can't shoot more than 1 weapon per shooting phase.

If overwatch isn't a shooting phase, then any model may fire all of its weapon during overwatch.

If overwatch IS a shooting phase, then the multi tracker allows you to fire an additional weapon.

No matter how you spin it, tau models with multitrackers, and other MC models can always fire more than 1 weapon regardless of the phase.

Isn't this fairly obvious?

Is it the shooting phase? No?

Then no, it cant be used.

And Overwatch is NOT a shooting phase, it is a regular shooting attack, made out of standard phase.

Did you ignore my post?

Cite the rule that prevents models from firing multiple weapons. Notice it restricts you to shooting 1 weapon in the SHOOTING PHASE.

If overwatch is not a shooting phase, than any model with more than 1 weapon can fire all of them. ( hello wraithknight with 4 guns)

If it IS a shooting phase then all the rules that affect a shooting phase apply. Multitracker, MC, etc.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The two sides are that:
1. Overwatch is a Shooting phase, and special rules that effect the shooting phase effect overwatch.

2. Overwatch is in the Assault phase, so special rules that effect the shooting phase do not effect overwatch.

That first point might be an argument for allowing shooting phase rules, but it isn't a good one, or the most common. There is nothing to back up the idea of Overwatch being considered a 'shooting phase'.


What the for argument boils down to is simply that all of the shooting rules deal with the shooting phase (There is no 'Shooting' section in the rulebook, just a 'Shooting phase' section) because that's when the majority of your shooting happens. Overwatch is a normal shooting attack (aside from a couple of specific differences) and so anything that applies to a normal shooting attack in the shooting phase should also apply to an overwatch attack.

its an out of sequence shooting attack. Anything that is specifically 'shooting phase' gated is not allowed but all other rules that pertain to shooting are allowed.

Firing 1 weapon is a shooting phase restriction. Are you claiming that marines with a Bolter and bolt pistol can fire both in overwatch since the only restriction to firing 1 weapon is a shooting phase only restriction?

It is resolved like a 'normal shooting attack'. This seems very straightforward to me. How would a normal shooting attack be resolved? Well that's how snapshots are resolved (with some exceptions). It also tells us the normal shooting rules apply.

This does not mean that overwatch is a normal shooting attack, only that it is resolved like one. It is obviously an exception as it is taking place in the assault phase.

I agree with insaniak, the idea that's it is a shooting phase seems entirely fabricated. I have no idea where anyone would have come up with that.

BarBoBot wrote:Firing 1 weapon is a shooting phase restriction. Are you claiming that marines with a Bolter and bolt pistol can fire both in overwatch since the only restriction to firing 1 weapon is a shooting phase only restriction?

It is a part of the 'normal' shooting attack rules. you need those rules to assign wounds and change hits into wounds and all the rest. Why would you think it falls outside the 'normal' rules for shooting attacks?

What is a "'normal' shooting attack"? What page of the rules are "'normal' shooting attacks" defined on? AFAIK the term doesn't really exist, and the only real definition of a "'normal' shooting attack" is "a shooting attack just as if it you were performing it normally, which is in your shooting phase."

Basically, this is a discussion about whether "In the shooting phase... " abilities work on intercept/overwatch. The one that gets discussed the most is Tau Multi Trackers, and Co'tor Shas summed it up well here:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The two sides are that:
1. Overwatch is a Shooting phase, and special rules that effect the shooting phase effect overwatch.
2. Overwatch is in the Assault phase, so special rules that effect the shooting phase do not effect overwatch.

The 'weird' thing here that (allegedly) makes the Multi-tracker point moot, is that the restriction on firing is also 'IN THE SHOOTING PHASE'. So RAW any model can fire all its weapons/grenades/whatever on overwatch. Obviously people don't play this way... which is (allegedly) a tacit acceptance that overwatch is a shooting phase.

So, RAW, overwatch is not a shooting phase, any ability that says 'in the shooting phase' does not work on overwatch... but all models may fire all weapons they have on overwatch.


How people play it is some mixed up version of that, and highly dependent on whether they are on the giving or receiving end of overwatching broadsides.

IMHO, I think the authors intend for every 'in the shooting phase' ability to work for all shooting, but are too lazy/incompetent to word the rules well enough to reflect this. They're still getting used to the idea of overwatch and haven't really cottoned on. Just like it took them a while to word the rules well enough to cope with models hurting themselves in their own movement phase...

I wouldn't sat ever shooting phase rule, just ones that are applicable to making a normal shooting phase attack. In other words no "start of shooting phase" "end of shooting phase" abilities like IG orders etc as they are distinctly phase based and not attack based.

So attack based abilitys yes, phase timed abilities no.

What is a normal shooting attack? How about the one you would normally make in your turn.

As in follow the rules of the shooting phase for making a shooting attack. Ergo no phase timed abilities allowed but attack based ones are ok.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The only way it sensibly works - without a marine being able to throw a grenade, fire his bolter AND bolt pistol - is you treat it like a mini shooting phase.

This. As pointed out Multi trackers are the most common stumbling block (though the identically worded Monstrous Creatures never seemed to raise an eyebrow, nor the similarly worded Walkers until the Tau codex came out). If you say they don't work then models can fire all their weapons as again the restriction to 1 weapon is worded the same as these allowances to fire more than one...

I was going to remain quiet, as I mentioned in the other thread, but because it has been asked yet again I am going to have to write up that rant once more it seems. I did review my old posts and found out the previous rant was corrupted. Seems I was unable to finish it without the post freezing, at the time the computer I was using was faulty, so I left just the foot notes. The core of the problem stemmed from a single sentence that ended with 'and so on.' This wouldn't of been much of a problem if it was found in a fluffy section of the book, but it was smack bang in the section informing us what rules to use to resolve a 'standard shooting attack' being carried out during the Assault Phase.

So I look forward to actually recreating that rant one day, maybe even today....

I was just thinking about this and realized that I am supporting my side against my own interests. When you look at the tau codex, a large amount of stuff says shooting phase. Volley Fire, Command-Link, Advanced Targeting System (battlesuit and vehicle), Multi-tracker, Command and Control Node, Neuroweb system jammer, ., Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite, and arguable Ripple Fire (imagine a riptide shooting out 8 TL shots from it's SMS, as long as it gets it), and the target lock (shooting at a different eligible unit, just for fun).

I wonder if I can change my vote....

Jefffar wrote:
Well a couple of pieces of wargear for comparison in the Tau Codex:

Multi-Tracker (pg 69)

"A model with a multi-tracker can fire an additional weapon in each Shooting phase."

Command and Control Node (pg 73)
"If a model with this wargear does not shoot during the Shooting phase, all Shooting attacks made by other models in his unit re-roll failed To Hit rolls until the end of the current phase. This cannot be used when firing Overwatch. A Command and Control Node can be used at the same time as a Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite."

So one piece of wargear says in the Shooting phase with no qualifier while the other expressly prohibits use during Overwatch.

My question is that if a wargear or rule benefits the way a model shoots in the Shooting phase doesn't also benefit it during Overwatch (or Interceptor) why does the Command and Control Node need to specify it doesn't work for Overwatch?

I find this argument to be much more compelling than either "it has to be" or "it can't be."

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I vote that it is treated as a normal shooting attack resolved at BS 1, so special rules that affect a normal shooting attack affect it, and those that don't, won't.

My Devastator Sarge has a special piece of Wargear that makes one model BS5. This is a special rule/wargear that affects normal shooting attacks. Are you saying that it should affect my Overwatch? Because that goes against all the rules for Snap Shooting.