Hello dakkalites, you are probably thinking "oh another one of these threads" and you might be right, but Im going ahead regardless.

I recently had a discussion with one of my regular opponants (who will remain nameless, until he names himself) which boiled down to him almost refusing to play my Necrons with his latest Chaos list (Marines & Daemons; 3 FDPs, obliterators, contemptor, plaugebearers, lots of cultists AFAIK) because of these little things, on the grounds that they stop his list from functioning properly. Now mathmatically, MSS only work one half of the times they are used, against the majority of the units he bitches about them being used on. Avg roll across 2D6 is 7. 10 - 7 is 3. 3 incorporates half of the third die, so theres a 1/2 chance to fail the test, on average rolling. And even if the test is failed, its D3 attacks your way not my way, that is all. You are very unlikely to do yourself lasting damage, unless you are unlucky as hell.

Now, we all know that MSS should be 20 points a pop if not more for what they do, not 15. but is it any different than a space marine sergeant with a Lightning Claw shredding a Commissar before he gets to swing? Or Abaddon single handedly wiping a unit out wholesale with a possible 12 S5AP2 attacks at WS7 and I5?

Is this the most hated peice of wargear around, or is it just my mate being on the end of too many bad dice rolls?

I would like to point out that MSS are designed to stop your characters getting bitchslapped by anything moderately viable in combat, unless you are prepared to invest almost double the cost of the model itself into wargear with the simple purpose of protection, before weapons or support equipment (res orbs in Necron case)

Is my mate in the right here, to write up a different list that minimises MSS impact, or to demand I use my secondary army in order to fight his triple Daemon list? (Spoilered quotes from the conversation to back that up)



What do you think internet? Am I the bad guy for running something that has a counter to getting 3 units wiped out a turn?

First things first. This is a game, and it should be about fun for all. Clearly your friend is frustrated and if you have another army list handy why not switch it up in order for your friend to have fun again?

I only just got back into this a few months ago and I have exactly 1 army, Necrons. and I run with MSS, and as much as I love it, if my friend told me he didn't want to play because of that piece of wargear I would remove it from the game so he could have some fun. I would probably mock him for being afraid of a leadership test but I would keep it light. If he's not having fun, I'm not having fun.

Ask yourself would you really have any fun playing your friend if you knew he wasn't having any fun?

But its not a leadership test. Its a test on 3D6 which even in a best case situation still fails 50ish % of the time.

Its 15 point piece of wargear that completely nerfs 275 points of Logan Grimnar. In fact its worse than that because not only does he strike himself, the necron lord still gets to swing with all of its weapons. Good weapons at that. Thus pretty much saying that Logan has a 50% chance of just laying down and dying just for trying to do his job.

Nobody would probably have an issue with MSS if they didn't effect HQ options. Sure, control a sargent/grunt what ever. But when your expensive HQs - many whos only function is CC suddenly are not allowed to do their job half the time by a piece of wargear a fraction of their points costs. It rubs people the wrong way.

Being ineffective in assault? Fearing a tough unit?

This is how armies that don't have deathstars or uber characters feel.

Or how tau or guard feel every game.

I have played against them, and honestly I think of him as just another dragio, or big nasty demon with a 2++ or honestly, like one of the new chapter masters with the shield eternal and other stuff.

There are tons of big nasty units out there that someone else specifically feels is "impossible" or "breaks their list".

Regarding the cost, I encourage other players to actually look at the necron codex - notice their significant lack of anyone who is good at CC.

The key is not trying to fight every nail with your hammer - some are just going to be different. Sure, I did not like that last time I faced a cron lord wtih MSS...but I also did not like the last time I faced mephiston, or dragio wing.

I know some people are going to read my post and say "but..." or "you are wrong...". I challenge those people to think a bit differently - and think about the game differently - it will make you a better player when maybe one of your "go to" models can't excel at everything.

Don't go against the strengths of an enemy, go against their weaknesses.

It's like the lash thing in 5th. It's not just about how good it is, it's more about the mechanic. It doesn't feel like your badass combat HQ character dude gets beaten fair and square, it feels like you've been cheated.

Basically, it's like having someone slap you in the face with their dick and you can't do anything about it.

 Jayden63 wrote:
But its not a leadership test. Its a test on 3D6 which even in a best case situation still fails 50ish % of the time.

Its 15 point piece of wargear that completely nerfs 275 points of Logan Grimnar. In fact its worse than that because not only does he strike himself, the necron lord still gets to swing with all of its weapons. Good weapons at that. Thus pretty much saying that Logan has a 50% chance of just laying down and dying just for trying to do his job.

Nobody would probably have an issue with MSS if they didn't effect HQ options. Sure, control a sargent/grunt what ever. But when your expensive HQs - many whos only function is CC suddenly are not allowed to do their job half the time by a piece of wargear a fraction of their points costs. It rubs people the wrong way.

I find it funny that a space wolf player is complaining about an ability that requires being in close combat, in base to base contact, and randomly affects models unless you accept a challenge, still having to fail the 3d6, and fail the saves, when space wolves can spam jaws which has a 24" range, can snipe characters with no saves allowed, and absolutely decimates I2 necron models. Seriously.

First, it's not D3 attacks, it's D3 hits.
Between that and the inevitable Warscythe, and the fact that whatever has the MSS can challenge, you're essentially guaranteed to kill whatever CC beat stick you find.

It means the 300+ point demon prince has to run like a coward from anything with an MSS.

rigeld2 wrote:
First, it's not D3 attacks, it's D3 hits.
Between that and the inevitable Warscythe, and the fact that whatever has the MSS can challenge, you're essentially guaranteed to kill whatever CC beat stick you find.

It means the 300+ point demon prince has to run like a coward from anything with an MSS.

Or he can not suck at the game, lol.

When I play against Necrons with my Circus, I charge the MSS unit with say, Dogs first and surround the character. Then I follow it up with the Prince. I choose the order of operations on my turn, thus MSS goes before challenge. A random Flesh Hound bites himself and my DP kills a DLord.

Then he gets back up and I fail at life, =)


MSS is annoying but there are ways around it. To play a power list like the Circus and have the audacity to complain about someone elses build is insane.

 disdamn wrote:
First things first. This is a game, and it should be about fun for all. Clearly your friend is frustrated and if you have another army list handy why not switch it up in order for your friend to have fun again?

I only just got back into this a few months ago and I have exactly 1 army, Necrons. and I run with MSS, and as much as I love it, if my friend told me he didn't want to play because of that piece of wargear I would remove it from the game so he could have some fun. I would probably mock him for being afraid of a leadership test but I would keep it light. If he's not having fun, I'm not having fun.

Ask yourself would you really have any fun playing your friend if you knew he wasn't having any fun?

This! if its for a fun game and your friend isn't having fun what's the point. I suck at Madden Last time I played my friend went 100 plus points to 0. That's with me playing an all star team and him using the worst one. If its not fun then its not fun.

Yeah, but if you deny the challenge then your beatstick CC HQ has to sit out while the D lord rampages through the combat. If you answer the challenge with your regular unit champion, he's going to hit himself in the face with his specialist weapon and almost certainly die. And don't pretend you can 'avoid combat' with a Dlord and his unit of oh so balanced wraiths. I have to take Sam in my ravenwing army. I don't really have a choice. And I can choose between either using him as a 200 point plasma cannon on the board edge, or him getting murdered by the Dlord without every getting a chance to swing. So fun! Then again the necron army has never been fun to play against in any edition.

 BarBoBot wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
But its not a leadership test. Its a test on 3D6 which even in a best case situation still fails 50ish % of the time.

Its 15 point piece of wargear that completely nerfs 275 points of Logan Grimnar. In fact its worse than that because not only does he strike himself, the necron lord still gets to swing with all of its weapons. Good weapons at that. Thus pretty much saying that Logan has a 50% chance of just laying down and dying just for trying to do his job.

Nobody would probably have an issue with MSS if they didn't effect HQ options. Sure, control a sargent/grunt what ever. But when your expensive HQs - many whos only function is CC suddenly are not allowed to do their job half the time by a piece of wargear a fraction of their points costs. It rubs people the wrong way.

I find it funny that a space wolf player is complaining about an ability that requires being in close combat, in base to base contact, and randomly affects models unless you accept a challenge, still having to fail the 3d6, and fail the saves, when space wolves can spam jaws which has a 24" range, can snipe characters with no saves allowed, and absolutely decimates I2 necron models. Seriously.

I just picked a random guy who is a beat stick over 250 points. Choose Gazzy, Abby, Vect, Calgar... the list goes on and the feeling of unfun propagates. Also people can say fight smartly, but as the necron player, you can be pretty agressive with it too. After all there is little downside of sending your destroyer Lord enemy HQ hunting.

I agree that the Mindshackle scarab thing sucks. (My most frequent opponent is a Necron player who is in love with the freaking things.) But I don't think it's broken by any stretch of the imagination. It's just one of the most frustrating aspects of its codex. All codexes have them. Every time someone complains about Mindshackle Scarabs, I remember what Monoliths were like in the last codex, and feel kind of like an ex-con who's stuck in traffic. Sure, this traffic jam sucks, but it beats a couple of years ago when I was getting held down and shanked in the shower.

As a tau player-MSS is horrid and should be removed from the game.

Seriously, you can stick anywhere, even on already powerful CC guys. its annoying.

To me, it's just one more annoying opponent ability to play around. Tau ignore cover, Space Marines ignore morale rules, the list goes on. The design philosophy that appears to be in play is the idea that everyone is overpowered in their own way to create balance. If GW was better at it, we wouldn't be having these complaints.

The main problem with MSS is how blatantly cost effective it is at what it brings to a low point value, necron army...

Take the Royal Court for instance... You can give them all MSS and Warscythes, then have them all march across the field in units and instantly, you've become a walking HQ counter force that effectively negates high point cost Models and Characters.

For champions like the Swarmlord / Abaddon, this is HUGE... 265 / 340 point Models like the Daemon Prince literally killing themselves every turn because of a 15 point upgrade.... That's game breakingly OP.... Not to mention the Warscythe was FAQ'd to be even better, so once you've smacked your own face, the Lord gets to lay in on you as well...

I dislike the mechanics of the upgrade all together as I think it was deliberately under costed and over enhanced throughout it's testing.... If you had to declare you were using it and subsequently weren't allowed to attack that same turn, I would think it would be slightly less disgusting. Or better yet, increase it's cost to 35 points and simply revert the Warscythe FAQ / make the Leadership Test 2D6. Or you know, let the Character affected strike regardless along with also taking 3 Hits....

There are soooooooo many options for balancing MSS that it's almost absurd no FAQ was released to do so... 15 points should not counter an entire army from the get go. It should at most, give you a 1 combat boost to survivability.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Sure, this traffic jam sucks, but it beats a couple of years ago when I was getting held down and shanked in the shower.

That's quite the analogy...

 Jimsolo wrote:
I agree that the Mindshackle scarab thing sucks. (My most frequent opponent is a Necron player who is in love with the freaking things.) But I don't think it's broken by any stretch of the imagination. It's just one of the most frustrating aspects of its codex. All codexes have them. Every time someone complains about Mindshackle Scarabs, I remember what Monoliths were like in the last codex, and feel kind of like an ex-con who's stuck in traffic. Sure, this traffic jam sucks, but it beats a couple of years ago when I was getting held down and shanked in the shower.

I dont quite see the similairty between MSS and getting violated in the prison shower but I do see your point. So I actualy find myself agreeing with you.

I have a question , when a csm DP hits himself with a darkmace does the mace ID test aoe spread to the csm units or to the necron ones ?

The problem with MSS is that it's one of those rare items or abilities that gets better as your opponent gets better.

Used against a SM squad sgt? No one's really going to complain too much. But used against a daemon prince? Suddenly that hugely expensive model is not just useless - it's actually fighting for the enemy.

People have paid points - often a lot of points - for their close combat characters. To see that investment not just negated but actually turned against you, all because of a 15 point wargear item, is the ultimate exercise in frustration and annoyance.

Unfortunately Necrons just seem to play this way - a lot of their abilities work by stopping the enemy doing their things, which often makes for dull and frustrating games.

I don't think the MSS upgrade is that bad.
It is one of the few things in the Necron army that is a threat in close combat.
There are far nastier things in almost all other armies.
Almost everyone has a cc unit that will tear through most of a Necron unit without slowing down, or a shooting unit that will blast it off the table.

 marv335 wrote:
I don't think the MSS upgrade is that bad.
It is one of the few things in the Necron army that is a threat in close combat.
There are far nastier things in almost all other armies.
Almost everyone has a cc unit that will tear through most of a Necron unit without slowing down, or a shooting unit that will blast it off the table.

Well yeah but then again cc units are hyper specialized to cc usually and lack pretty much any other ability. Kinda like your wraiths actually. Really nasty in cc but that is all they are really worth. No shooting, actually they themself are more of the cleanup crew (still terrifyingly good). Also tearing through a necron unit doesn't help (we cc players tend to like being stuck in cc until the end of your turn~). Also the same can be said for pretty much every faction. SM are the everyman guys and nowadays ATSKNF arguably works more against them then for them. They cost a lot of points for a armor save that has become decreasingly reliable, most enemy units can blast it off the table or easily sweep them in cc. Heck, for the most part that can be said for almost anything. The problem with MSS is it is so cheap for something that really feths over armies. Even at the highest leadership (and trust me several armies aren't. One of the big 3 cc armies is daemons whom nowadays at best have ld9 models) armies will only have a 50% chance of it failing. It allows a lord to isolate an important beatstick (due to how the challenge rules work), and then giggle as their 15 point item has a 1/2 or better chance of making the enemie's beat stick whack himself to death. The biggest problem comes down to it scaling too well. It's meh against a sergeant. Likely going to get him to whack himself apart but hey it is just a sergeant. The problem comes from when a cc specialized unit starts beating his face in with his own weapon when you payed several hundred more points on your dude (abbaddon, any chaos daemon, even tyranids) also how does a mss clamp onto a daemon exactly? Then d3 hits to themself and on top of that you actually have a good cc weapon with a great ap and very solid S value that will add extra pain. Honestly it's not the worst thing ever. There are far more broken cheesy things out there. That being said, it is an anti-fun item that is irritating, grating, bothersome, and all around underpriced just maybe not as much as some other ones (granted this is in part because the current meta is largely dominated by shooting)

Quite frankly, if you're throwing your close combat monster high point Hq at a Necron model that you know (or suspect) has MSS, then it's not really the fault of MSS that your point sink character got splatted.

Frankly, I find the res orb more annoying. You spend all that effort to kill the Lord and it just stands up half the time (barring sweeps).

GoliothOnline wrote:
The main problem with MSS is how blatantly cost effective it is at what it brings to a low point value, necron army...

Take the Royal Court for instance... You can give them all MSS and Warscythes, then have them all march across the field in units and instantly, you've become a walking HQ counter force that effectively negates high point cost Models and Characters.

For champions like the Swarmlord / Abaddon, this is HUGE... 265 / 340 point Models like the Daemon Prince literally killing themselves every turn because of a 15 point upgrade.... That's game breakingly OP.... Not to mention the Warscythe was FAQ'd to be even better, so once you've smacked your own face, the Lord gets to lay in on you as well...

I dislike the mechanics of the upgrade all together as I think it was deliberately under costed and over enhanced throughout it's testing.... If you had to declare you were using it and subsequently weren't allowed to attack that same turn, I would think it would be slightly less disgusting. Or better yet, increase it's cost to 35 points and simply revert the Warscythe FAQ / make the Leadership Test 2D6. Or you know, let the Character affected strike regardless along with also taking 3 Hits....

There are soooooooo many options for balancing MSS that it's almost absurd no FAQ was released to do so... 15 points should not counter an entire army from the get go. It should at most, give you a 1 combat boost to survivability.

Thing is how much would a court cost and what would happen if it was to be hit by let's say a... Battlecannon

 marv335 wrote:
Quite frankly, if you're throwing your close combat monster high point Hq at a Necron model that you know (or suspect) has MSS, then it's not really the fault of MSS that your point sink character got splatted.

This reminds me a lot of people that were going on about how I shouldn't lob my pink horror magic at a 5+ fnp wave of about 20 plagues. Yeah I know it is a bad idea. But here's the problem, a, limited models, b everything else was dead xD (I won actually by weight of numbers by charging with horrors of all things xD). I'll still blame the MSS simply because... how is it that a 15 point item can hard counter units that usually end up costing a truck ton of points? I really don't think it is the worst thing that 40k has brought out. There are things far more underpriced and preposterous than this one specific thing. Really it's more of an irritation to me as a player. It's like well I guess I won't be attacking them in cc time to bast the rest of their army to bits. That being said, I still argue that it is an anti-fun item that really doesn't fit in (let alone it really doesn't make sense how it works on so many people xD)

 marv335 wrote:
Quite frankly, if you're throwing your close combat monster high point Hq at a Necron model that you know (or suspect) has MSS, then it's not really the fault of MSS that your point sink character got splatted.

Yeah it's totally impossible for the Necrons to charge, eh?

 anonymou5 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
First, it's not D3 attacks, it's D3 hits.
Between that and the inevitable Warscythe, and the fact that whatever has the MSS can challenge, you're essentially guaranteed to kill whatever CC beat stick you find.

It means the 300+ point demon prince has to run like a coward from anything with an MSS.

Or he can not suck at the game, lol.

When I play against Necrons with my Circus, I charge the MSS unit with say, Dogs first and surround the character. Then I follow it up with the Prince. I choose the order of operations on my turn, thus MSS goes before challenge. A random Flesh Hound bites himself and my DP kills a DLord.

Then he gets back up and I fail at life, =)


MSS is annoying but there are ways around it. To play a power list like the Circus and have the audacity to complain about someone elses build is insane.

Didn't take long for the first L2Pnewb post. 8 posts. Mostly kdding.



MSS are irritating, but meh, not game breaking. I try not to throw any close combat badass at things i suspect might have them (which is way easier said than done, i will totally admit that).

That said, if i was playing something and buddy said to me something along the lines of "no, i'm not taking the list i was going to play against (that), because i'm not sitting here being bored with a crappy game for the next two hours", i'd probably switch my list up.

This actually has happened before, and i accomodated my friend - I was using alarielle in Fantasy a lot, and a friend actually asked me if i could table her for a game because he was sick to death of facing her every game. I was more than happy to put her away for a few games. THis is a good friend, my most often fantasy opponent. I want him to have fun too.


... tournament ? Different story. Tough noogies, in go my mind controlling undercosted, stacked leadership MSS, or my ultra bs elf queen.

 anonymou5 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
First, it's not D3 attacks, it's D3 hits.
Between that and the inevitable Warscythe, and the fact that whatever has the MSS can challenge, you're essentially guaranteed to kill whatever CC beat stick you find.

It means the 300+ point demon prince has to run like a coward from anything with an MSS.

Or he can not suck at the game, lol.

When I play against Necrons with my Circus, I charge the MSS unit with say, Dogs first and surround the character. Then I follow it up with the Prince. I choose the order of operations on my turn, thus MSS goes before challenge. A random Flesh Hound bites himself and my DP kills a DLord.

Then he gets back up and I fail at life, =)


MSS is annoying but there are ways around it. To play a power list like the Circus and have the audacity to complain about someone elses build is insane.

how can MSS go off before a challenge, when a challenge is the first thing done in combat?

MSS are overpowered though, and necrons who insist otherwise are idiots. It either should be a normal leadership or straight up not affect fearless models. Since its not a morale check, fearless has no effect on it. Ld10 on a 3D6 is very easy to ignore, and it completely nullifies the target rather than strip 1-2 attacks. Its the kind of balance i loathe, the army in general is pretty meh outside MSS, which is just on an insanely different level of strong compared to the army. Why do they even have it? Theyre not an assaulty army, they have 1 unit thats good at it (wraiths) and happen to have an HQ that can too.
Used to play against a Necron guy all the time, i believe in about 15-20 games he actually failed MSS twice or so. And as an Ork army, the likeliness of me shooting wraiths out before they meet my forces. MSS would single handedly make him win the game because either he outshoots me, or i try to get around the wraiths which is impossible since theyre even faster than bikernobz, since they ignore walls when they move around.

It's specifically nasty against builds that rely on big heavy hitters (Flying Circus, Tyranids, etc..). Not every list has expendable units to feed into the lord.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
how can MSS go off before a challenge, when a challenge is the first thing done in combat?

Because they actually happen at the same time, and the rules say that the active player decides the order they occur in - so if you're charging, put your beatstick in b2b with someone else, trigger MSS, issue the challenge.
If the Necrons are charging you, they issue the challenge then trigger MSS.

Let's see
Court lord with MSS scythe and semi is 75 and it's a 1 wound t5 2up model or add more points to add an orb certainly not cheap.
A overlord with same kit is 130, things to remember is nither option has any form of shooting low initiative no dedicated transport(except command barge for over lord) so postition attackers so not in base contact with the bearer and the MSS is not so useful.
Yes you can get them an ark at a ton of points yes you can add extra lords into the unit for more MSS but then the little 15pt upgrade costs a lot more to be useful and points should be spent on other things. I'm more worried at facing the pokeball as it ignores all saves and eternal warrior, because at base most cc characters have a good save/invun and a couple of hits is unlikely to trouble them (not impossible but unlikely) while the rest of there unit kills necrons, forces leadership and sweeps them away.
Can they be annoying? yes
Are they op? no

MSS really do annoy me, especially as I really ony play games with a friend who absolutely loves the things, as well as annihalation barges. I tend to play IG allied with SM so it always ends up with my captain/chapter master getting decimated as soon as they enter combat.

But then it doesnt matter so much after 100 lasguns start firing volleys in the next turn

Makumba wrote:
I have a question , when a csm DP hits himself with a darkmace does the mace ID test aoe spread to the csm units or to the necron ones ?

i believe the dark mace specifies enemy models, which mean it goes against the necrons, even if the mace is being controlled by MSS

 Jayden63 wrote:
But its not a leadership test. Its a test on 3D6 which even in a best case situation still fails 50ish % of the time.

Its 15 point piece of wargear that completely nerfs 275 points of Logan Grimnar. In fact its worse than that because not only does he strike himself, the necron lord still gets to swing with all of its weapons. Good weapons at that. Thus pretty much saying that Logan has a 50% chance of just laying down and dying just for trying to do his job.

Nobody would probably have an issue with MSS if they didn't effect HQ options. Sure, control a sargent/grunt what ever. But when your expensive HQs - many whos only function is CC suddenly are not allowed to do their job half the time by a piece of wargear a fraction of their points costs. It rubs people the wrong way.

Here is a simple solution: Don't charge your uber character into the model with MSS. How hard is that? Shoot the crap out of it instead. Charge in a different unit instead of your uber character. Not as if the necron lord is a CC combat god to begin with. It is no different than not letting howling banshees charge you or not letting an enemy's heavy weapons get an easy shot at the side of your tank. If a single character with a 15 point piece of wargear that only has an effect if your uber model is in base contact with it in melee is completely ruining your ability to succeed with your army then perhaps you should find a different hobby, because it isn't all that hard to avoid those conditions in a game and still win the game just fine.

Also kind of funny to hear complaints of poor Logan Grimnar being made useless by a 15 point piece of wargear he needs to be in base contact with the holder to be affected by. JoWW is FAR more ludicrous in its abilities on the table and can be used at range as well.

Skriker

To be honest, I could understand if I was running the MSS off of a DLord surrounded by Wraiths, who was hunting the Daemons, but Im not.

Im running them off of Court Lords loaded out as the post atop this page + a Res Orb (pricey lifeline for my shooting bricks). I believe my friend objects to them on the grounds that they stand between his Beatstick units and my amazingly squishy Warriors, stopping them being completely levelled in a matter of seconds.

But my counter to that is how less fair is it than a GK Termie with a Halberd ID'ing a non-Slaanesh Chaos Lord who costs more than 3x as many points?

I would also like to point out, he does not run a 'circus' list, as far as I am aware, this is the first list he has ran with 3 Flying daemons in it.

The way I see it is that if you want to play him that much, and you think that taking this single upgrade will make him unhappy, don't take it. Unless its competitive play, the point of the game is for both players to have fun and if he isn't and you can change that then you should. If you don't think its fair that he is so unhappy with them, explain to him that they are fair (Which I disagree with, I dislike the whole concept itself because it's simply not fun to me) and if he still won't understand then you have to either change the list or play someone different. I dislike someone playing more then 2 flyers/riptides/wraithknights/dreadknights and in a friendly game where I had a choice, I would play someone else. Its not because I dislike the player, but because I think the game wont be fun. He is entitled to choose what/who he plays, and if you want to play him, then you have to meet his criteria. I know it sounds like your doing the work, and I am probably biased because I don't like the concept of MSS (I've seen a friends swarmlord insta kill himself and a chaos lord slaughter his own unit. Doesn't seem right to me) but that's how it is.

Look at it from a Necron point of view, which I am, all of our special named characters will basically die in CC and they dont have MSS(Aside from Trazyn), and if the survive only 1 really hits that hard in a challenge, Vargard Obyron, and like a destroyer lord doesnt have an invul and will be hitting last.

With the recent release of certain MC's MSS is about as close as a Necron can get sometimes to killing things when shooting just wont do.

I don't have anything against not taking them, this is the case scenario of "I've got 3 Flying Daemons, but I will make a different list if you include Mindshackles in you Necron list, or demand you use an entirely different Army ".

I am not against bringing a list without them, but not when I need them. Such as, when there are 3 FDPs across the board from me, expect me to have all my Lords armed with MSS.

The thing is - you're not just countering his FDPs with them, you're negating them for no loss (essentially). They're wasted points for him because he can't use them on your warrior blobs. Why waste the points? He has a less than 50% chance of swinging on his own - most of the time he will lose his DP without rolling more than invul saves.

The problem as I see it is that the Necrons will get absolutely levelled in CC without MSS.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The problem as I see it is that the Necrons will get absolutely levelled in CC without MSS.

Thank you.

And people do seem to forget that it isn't a guaranteed result that you are hitting yourself

it is 50% or higher . Considering how much harder to get in to melee , melee units are and how good a melee unit is to be in melee , this means there is a 50% or higher chance to kill any HQ in melee with necron . for 15pts.

Makumba wrote:
it is 50% or higher . Considering how much harder to get in to melee , melee units are and how good a melee unit is to be in melee , this means there is a 50% or higher chance to kill any HQ in melee with necron . for 15pts.

Sadly, that is the case. However, the Necrons have no other options. It's literally 1) run an OP piece of wargear hated by everyone or 2) die a horrible death that makes the game unfun for everyone.

Shrug.

But this is sixth edition. Melee is dead anyway, so who cares? Fifteen points wasted unless you want to be hypocritical in that claim.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
But this is sixth edition. Melee is dead anyway, so who cares? Fifteen points wasted unless you want to be hypocritical in that claim.

I don't believe melee is dead. Some others do, perhaps, but I am willing to spend 15 points to ensure that I am protected from it, even if the internet thinks it's dead.

After eldar and demon codex releases the melee is strong for a very narrow choice of armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
An easier fix would be it would work on mc's on a ld test of 2d6 represnting the need of more scarabs to shackle the mind of the target

Sounds like the real problem with this piece of wargear is the model being forced to hit itself. Maybe if it just negated the models attack for the turn instead. That would still be very powerful, but nothing as bad as forcing Mephiston to hit himself with his force sword and then blowing that extra force point to make him ID himself, or the Swarmlord for that matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
But this is sixth edition. Melee is dead anyway, so who cares? Fifteen points wasted unless you want to be hypocritical in that claim.

But what are Tyranids supposed to do? They have horrible armor pen with ranged weapons and their ranged troops are incredibly easy to kill. Genestealer? snicker.

Maybe when the new codex comes out they will have a decent counter. They don't now.

I don't think it's unreasonable that a heavily shooting-based army is weaker in close combat.

Being able to destroy almost any close combat based character, as well as dominating the shooting game, is a bit unreasonable.

 Hedgehog wrote:
I don't think it's unreasonable that a heavily shooting-based army is weaker in close combat.

Being able to destroy almost any close combat based character, as well as dominating the shooting game, is a bit unreasonable.

Heavily shooting based? They have, like, 2 guns over 24" of range with one singe unit that gets a Str 9 gun and it can't move or it becomes Str 7, and is open-topped AV11 (13 against the first few shots). Their shooting is strong, but not Tau-strong.

So why should they have a Tau weakness?

the Tau weakness isn't even a weakness what with Supporting Fire, and the sheer numbers of dice you have to tank before you hit CC...

Also, heavy destroyers exist XD

they get lascannon equivalent guns

Heavy Destroyers get a single lascannon for sixty five points apiece. Any other army spending 65 points for 1 lascannon would be whining till the blood comes out their throats at that!

Ah, yes, the Heavy Destroyer. Such a buff to Necron shooting that it's ubiquitous in every list, and is feared across the galaxy for its mediocre tank-killing power.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Heavy Destroyers get a single lascannon for sixty five points apiece. Any other army spending 65 points for 1 lascannon would be whining till the blood comes out their throats at that!

Predators are 100 points for a TL lascannon. So... pretty sure you're wrong?
And it's 60 points.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Heavy Destroyers get a single lascannon for sixty five points apiece. Any other army spending 65 points for 1 lascannon would be whining till the blood comes out their throats at that!

Predators are 100 points for a TL lascannon. So... pretty sure you're wrong?
And it's 60 points.

Fielding lots of predators lately. rigeld? Or is it so good that some other players have been using it a lot?

Also the comparison is flawed, because as a vehicle the Predator is more survivable in some ways and less so in others (although only marginally), and is slightly more mobile. So you're paying for things other than the weapons system.

The only thing that irks me about this whole post are the people demanding that the OP change his list to suit his opponent. I'd go as far as to let my opponent tailor against me (I do this when testing lists out anyway) but I wouldn't change what I'm playing in specific ways as desired by my opponent. Even in a friendly game, people are entitled to play the army they want. Whether or not someone will play you is a different matter, as will whether or not you will win; but I would never ask my opponent to change his list because I didn't like a specific wargear item. I used to play 2 necron players almost exclusively, and yeah MSS sucked. But I would never dream of asking my opponent to take MSS, or wave serpents, or anything else out of his list right before a game.

Mate, obviously you don't get the point.

You already know I don't think Necrons are OP or any ridiculous claim that other posters think, but you know that that is the only piece of Wargear I think is broken in your codex.

The problem comes in two portions:

A) Its is the ultimate counter for your weakness in your army, you know biggest your weakness is your Int value, and I wouldn't have had such a big problem if it "stalled" my characters as you proclaim, if it did I would be happy as it meant that would be a challenge, but stalling would be something like I would not be able to attack your units, MSS does not do that, MSS KILLS my unit or heavily damages it to the point that its just waiting for a voice over of "FINSH HIM" from that guy in Mortal Combat which leads me to the next portion...

B) Its not the fact that just a regular lord has MSS

Its not the fact that just a regular lord has a warscythe

Its not the fact that just a regular lord has a 2+ Sv

Its the fact it has ALL of it put together that makes it ridiculous, and if it was just your Overlord I wouldn't have a problem with that either (after all HQ's are supposed to be hard as nails right?) its that fact that it gets spammed on a court of Lords that makes it ridiculous imo, and in game terms your lords are the equivalent to sergeants the way you use them, which gets tedious.

Secondly, you know I do not play competitive (which I will credit you on as you have mentioned that), I even take Warp Talons for pete's sake! (and I am using Helldrakes less and less now as Im getting bored of them tbh) this list I have never tried out (I made it yesterday), and I just wanted to experiment with cultists and FDP and see what it actually did, and because everyone up at the FLGS is using a lot of bugs (my slang for 'Nids) so I thought it would be a bit of nostalgia and fun to bring back the DP (since I only very occasionally played them when the new codex came out as I wanted to try out fresh things for a new codex).

Now against your Necrons I know if you take MSS, my FDP can never go near them they will have to go for your tanks, but what after that? just Vector strike them? seems a waste of points tbh, so how to take them out? as I have already said im just gonna have to roll a ton of shooting attacks and pray your lords drop and stay down, so no real tactical thinking just need to pray for lucky rolling... oh so fun...

Third: I never demanded that you use your Marines; you wanted to know why FDP were "so feared" (according to Dakka) the simple fact of the matter is you wont find that challenge or why they are "so feared" if you run MSS because they will do nothing to your army except kill themselves, you wont see any sort of challenge hence why I suggested you use your Marines, because then you will find why they are supposedly such a challenge to fight against, you then refused so I then said I would change up the army because most of the army will not do much against you since there just a few lascannons and Autoguns.

the whole "you need MSS" that you keep on saying (as you said in that conversation) is ridiculous if that is the case then I need my Helldrakes, both pieces do extremely well for the table for what they do however I am using at least 1 Helldrake or none in my lists now as you know I've grown tired of what they do and I rather have other things now in anyway, so do you "need" them, or do you "want them?

Like I say I don't have a problem with your army or codex, just that piece of Wargear because it does way too much for its points, obviously I've struck a nerve here so I was just clarifying everything up but since you already have the Dakka bandwagon calling me WAAC (Anon or not an insult is still an insult), then you may as well forget the sodding game then, after all I only wanted to play one game of 40k anyway against a Tyranid player, as you know im growing less interest in 40k anyways.

Lastly I will just leave this here as your best "advice" you gave me in the same conversation:



... yeah good advice there ...

What I would do about MSS is charge the Warrior blob with a crapload of little gribblies, such as Plaguebearers or nurgle zombies or even a large CSM squad.

Then, once the Lord is already in B2B with a random marine who is more likely to survive against his own attacks than not, charge with the huge gribbly and mop up.

Right, what about the Dlord with MSS who charges you along with his 6 Canoptic Wraiths? Then I just get to think about how much fun I am having while I remove my models.

This is starting to sound like an echo chamber where Necron players reassure each other that really, they aren't being unsporting at all by using MSS.

15 Points to reliably kill the warlord I HAVE to take (200 points worth) to run my army? What am I supposed to do? Avoid it? Kill a unit of 6 wraiths plus a d-lord before they charge something? Lol right. I have to close with you to win, and this means that if I do, I loose. It's nearly an auto-win button. And it IS an auto Slay The Warlord button.

 sierra 1247 wrote:
MSS really do annoy me, especially as I really ony play games with a friend who absolutely loves the things, as well as annihalation barges. I tend to play IG allied with SM so it always ends up with my captain/chapter master getting decimated as soon as they enter combat.

But then it doesnt matter so much after 100 lasguns start firing volleys in the next turn

I do basically the same thing, except a Leman Russ to level the accompanying warriors and a vet squad packed with plasma or melta popping out from some hiding spot within charge range. Fire with the Russ first if the warriors are in front, and fire with vets first if it's a 2+ overlord shielding the warriors from the battle cannon blast. And since I usually use shotgun/melta vets, I can kill/wound the overlord and whittle down the warriors before they even overwatch. In fact, I issue the challenge so only my sarge dies to the giant 'corn, and I generally tie combat or win by 1 or 2 (not that they're retreating anytime soon). Even with-- nay, especially with-- MSS lords/overlords, I can easily bog down a rather weakened squad before the next squad in line steps up.

It's true that MSS is overpowered. It's stupid good, it's incredible, it's like the Atom Bomb of 40k if you must think so.

It's also the Necrons' only hope of not simply folding in CC and basically giving up if the enemy gets there. It sucks that Ward saw fit only to give us an OP CC defense or not at all.

Allow me to chop this up into manageable, relevant chunks.

 happygolucky wrote:
A) Its is the ultimate counter for your weakness in your army, you know biggest your weakness is your Int value, and I wouldn't have had such a big problem if it "stalled" my characters as you proclaim, if it did I would be happy as it meant that would be a challenge, but stalling would be something like I would not be able to attack your units, MSS does not do that, MSS KILLS my unit or heavily damages it to the point that its just waiting for a voice over of "FINSH HIM" from that guy in Mortal Combat which leads me to the next portion...

Lets be honest, you know as well as anyone in the thread that without the MSS, I am loosing 3 units a turn. Almost guaranteed.

B) Its not the fact that just a regular lord has MSS

Its not the fact that just a regular lord has a warscythe

Its not the fact that just a regular lord has a 2+ Sv

Its the fact it has ALL of it put together that makes it ridiculous, and if it was just your Overlord I wouldn't have a problem with that either (after all HQ's are supposed to be hard as nails right?) its that fact that it gets spammed on a court of Lords that makes it ridiculous imo, and in game terms your lords are the equivalent to sergeants the way you use them, which gets tedious.

emphasised point only. Im sorry, but no. I use 3 of them, each of which leads a squad of warriors, plus an Overlord who is often with some Lychguard.... 'Spamming' MSS would result in me having 12 of them on the field, and a lot more CC than you could reasonably deal with in any decent length of time

Now against your Necrons I know if you take MSS, my FDP can never go near them they will have to go for your tanks, but what after that? just Vector strike them? seems a waste of points tbh, so how to take them out? as I have already said im just gonna have to roll a ton of shooting attacks and pray your lords drop and stay down, so no real tactical thinking just need to pray for lucky rolling... oh so fun...

or you could just try it anyway? It is not a guarantee, and you have passed that Ld check more often that it has done anything drastic. A couple of times it killed a Champion, who would have still not killed the lord, and then fallen to a Scythe blade. One time I can think of them 'removing' a 250+ point HQ was Typhus... and that wasn't against you.

Third: I never demanded that you use your Marines; you wanted to know why FDP were "so feared" (according to Dakka) the simple fact of the matter is you wont find that challenge or why they are "so feared" if you run MSS because they will do nothing to your army except kill themselves, you wont see any sort of challenge hence why I suggested you use your Marines, because then you will find why they are supposedly such a challenge to fight against, you then refused so I then said I would change up the army because most of the army will not do much against you since there just a few lascannons and Autoguns.

It bloody well came off like you did, the way you said "Use your Marines THEN you will see why they are feared." I explained in our conversation that I don't have enough to my marines yet to even stand a chance against 3 Flying Daemons.

the whole "you need MSS" that you keep on saying (as you said in that conversation) is ridiculous if that is the case then I need my Helldrakes, both pieces do extremely well for the table for what they do however I am using at least 1 Helldrake or none in my lists now as you know I've grown tired of what they do and I rather have other things now in anyway, so do you "need" them, or do you "want them?

No, I need them in times like this. Otherwise I loose whatever units they get into combat with. ("The way it should be" you just said, yeah well, that's why they exist.)

Like I say I don't have a problem with your army or codex, just that piece of Wargear because it does way too much for its points, obviously I've struck a nerve here so I was just clarifying everything up but since you already have the Dakka bandwagon calling me WAAC (Anon or not an insult is still an insult), then you may as well forget the sodding game then, after all I only wanted to play one game of 40k anyway against a Tyranid player, as you know im growing less interest in 40k anyways.

Never called you a WAAC player. nor have any of these people. If you paid attention, you would notice most of them seem to be on your side. You struck a nerve when you said you would re-write your list when I told you was including the only things that can conceivably stop a Daemon from splattering an entire unit in a single phase.

Lastly I will just leave this here as your best "advice" you gave me in the same conversation:

IHateNids: maybe you just need to roll better?

Please, enlighten me to what I could have said instead that wouldn't have resulted in you calling shenanigans and having a go the way you always do when I try and show you statistics behind units?

Unit1126PLL wrote:It's true that MSS is overpowered. It's stupid good, it's incredible, it's like the Atom Bomb of 40k if you must think so.

Yes. Undeniably. They need to be at least 20 points, if not 30.

It's also the Necrons' only hope of not simply folding in CC and basically giving up if the enemy gets there. It sucks that Ward saw fit only to give us an OP CC defense or not at all.

Alas, this is the point he doesn't seem to be able to see, all he sees is a Daemon/Chaos Lord attacking his own unit and then being cloven in 2.

I really dont get the whole "but necrons suck at CC" argument.

Warscythes are good. very good. and your lords can pack them, with a 2+ save. they are as handy as any buffed squad leader, except they might revive themselves, and make their team revive better.

Wraiths, one of the best CC units in the game.

Destroyerlords, one of the best CC HQs in the game.

Scarab farms-horde melee tactics.



Its not like the necrons don't have other CC answers, they are just not QUITE as good. its still leagues above anything the tau has, tau got only supporting fire to rely on, and if oyu passed that,its a killing spree.
Necron HAS counter-charge units, they HAVE CC squad leaders, and they HAVE their own assault elements.

Heck, dark harvest lists can be good as a pure assault necron army, even without taking the MSS.


Point is, the MSS is a no-brainer. there is never an excuse NOT to take them on any model that can. at least the tau's over-the-top wargear pieces are limited to a single copy in the army.

 IHateNids wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The problem as I see it is that the Necrons will get absolutely levelled in CC without MSS.

Thank you.

And people do seem to forget that it isn't a guaranteed result that you are hitting yourself

It isn't that it's the best answer to a weakness in your army, it's that it's too cheap for what it does.

In game analogy?
4th Edition Eldar Runes of Warding. 15 points to nearly completely negate all hostile psychers on the board. People didn't bring psychers if they risked facing Eldar.
6th Edition Eldar Transports. Either don't get to transport anything at all or buy a transport that's so powerful it's the reason you buy infantry not the other way around.

MSS is so cheap and can be bought on so many models that if I risk facing Necrons, I'd seriously consider if I wanted to bring any strong melee characters at all.

You know it's going to get nerfed in the next codex. But yeah, most codexes have a Helldrake item or two. This is one of yours. Don't get upset if people don't want it in friendly games.

Oop double post, see appended.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What? MSS is the necrons only real counter to hyper cc models. Without it, my overlord will get bifurcated by someone like abaddon. Hell most of the time he passes the test and butchers me anyway. MSS give us a CHANCE to be good in cc, otherwise the second he charges me i may as well forfeit on the spot.

an extremely good chance, and it autowins any challenge when it passes. thats the issue. even against LD10 models, average 3D6 dice will fail that test. A 15pt upgrade, no matter how crappy you are in melee to begin with, should not have such a high chance to completely negate a 250+ melee monstrosity. Weaken him, yes, totally nullify no.

I think allowing the target model to attack at I1 or something after bashing their own face in without any other negative modifiers would be more than fair.

I can't help but agree with what everyone is saying. Sure, allow the model to attack at I1, or make the damn thing cost 20-30 points, or let people get an invuln save before they have to take a LD check, or something, I don't really know what the solution is.

But without MSS the Necrons are in sad sad shape, and so they are basically mandatory for a non-flier list. I would buy them even if they were 30ppm, but they aren't, so I buy them at 15 instead. I would have to buy them regardless.


As for the reason necrons suck at CC, it's not the individual characters so much as the squads, which will lose combat to any dedicated CC unit and then be swept, taking the character with them.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I can't help but agree with what everyone is saying. Sure, allow the model to attack at I1, or make the damn thing cost 20-30 points, or let people get an invuln save before they have to take a LD check, or something, I don't really know what the solution is.

But without MSS the Necrons are in sad sad shape, and so they are basically mandatory for a non-flier list. I would buy them even if they were 30ppm, but they aren't, so I buy them at 15 instead. I would have to buy them regardless.


As for the reason necrons suck at CC, it's not the individual characters so much as the squads, which will lose combat to any dedicated CC unit and then be swept, taking the character with them.

Forgive me for bothering you, but how is this really any different than any non dedicated CC for the most part? In general Eldar will break in cc, tau will break in cc, only the biggest blobs won't break (and even then there is still quite the chance that they will all be swept, DE warriors get swept... Really the only ones that I can't think of are nids within range of a Tyranid leader, (a CC oriented army), Orks (and only if in big enough hordes), Chaos Daemons (well Plagues are built for resilience. PH will die in droves like any other just add chaos flair. Oh and another CC dedicated segment). Really, the only guys I can think of that aren't just swept aside is SM which are often claimed in this meta to be overpriced not to mention CC armies want to be in CC for two turns so they don't have to worry about the rest of your army shooting them to death in the wide open. Sorry I'm just slightly perplexed (especially since necrons have in general ld10 as well)

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I can't help but agree with what everyone is saying. Sure, allow the model to attack at I1, or make the damn thing cost 20-30 points, or let people get an invuln save before they have to take a LD check, or something, I don't really know what the solution is.

But without MSS the Necrons are in sad sad shape, and so they are basically mandatory for a non-flier list. I would buy them even if they were 30ppm, but they aren't, so I buy them at 15 instead. I would have to buy them regardless.


As for the reason necrons suck at CC, it's not the individual characters so much as the squads, which will lose combat to any dedicated CC unit and then be swept, taking the character with them.

Forgive me for bothering you, but how is this really any different than any non dedicated CC for the most part? In general Eldar will break in cc, tau will break in cc, only the biggest blobs won't break (and even then there is still quite the chance that they will all be swept, DE warriors get swept... Really the only ones that I can't think of are nids within range of a Tyranid leader, (a CC oriented army), Orks (and only if in big enough hordes), Chaos Daemons (well Plagues are built for resilience. PH will die in droves like any other just add chaos flair. Oh and another CC dedicated segment). Really, the only guys I can think of that aren't just swept aside is SM which are often claimed in this meta to be overpriced not to mention CC armies want to be in CC for two turns so they don't have to worry about the rest of your army shooting them to death in the wide open. Sorry I'm just slightly perplexed (especially since necrons have in general ld10 as well)

It's different because the Necrons have less mobility than Eldar, less shooting than the Tau, fewer bodies than the Imperial Guard, less awesome CC characters than the Dark Eldar, what other examples have you got for me?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I can't help but agree with what everyone is saying. Sure, allow the model to attack at I1, or make the damn thing cost 20-30 points, or let people get an invuln save before they have to take a LD check, or something, I don't really know what the solution is.

But without MSS the Necrons are in sad sad shape, and so they are basically mandatory for a non-flier list. I would buy them even if they were 30ppm, but they aren't, so I buy them at 15 instead. I would have to buy them regardless.


As for the reason necrons suck at CC, it's not the individual characters so much as the squads, which will lose combat to any dedicated CC unit and then be swept, taking the character with them.

Forgive me for bothering you, but how is this really any different than any non dedicated CC for the most part? In general Eldar will break in cc, tau will break in cc, only the biggest blobs won't break (and even then there is still quite the chance that they will all be swept, DE warriors get swept... Really the only ones that I can't think of are nids within range of a Tyranid leader, (a CC oriented army), Orks (and only if in big enough hordes), Chaos Daemons (well Plagues are built for resilience. PH will die in droves like any other just add chaos flair. Oh and another CC dedicated segment). Really, the only guys I can think of that aren't just swept aside is SM which are often claimed in this meta to be overpriced not to mention CC armies want to be in CC for two turns so they don't have to worry about the rest of your army shooting them to death in the wide open. Sorry I'm just slightly perplexed (especially since necrons have in general ld10 as well)

It's different because the Necrons have less mobility than Eldar, less shooting than the Tau, fewer bodies than the Imperial Guard, less awesome CC characters than the Dark Eldar, what other examples have you got for me?

My question comes mainly because all these races that are shooting oriented are usually easily swept in cc so what gives Necrons any inherent right to it? Also, I think the real problem comes from the fact that Reanimation protocols, their save of 4+, and above average toughness are undervalued in this meta (too much for something that currently most armies have tons of ways to counter). Anyways, yeah killing 10 IG isn't that bad but killing a platoon can be devestating, Eldar are more fragile than Necrons, yeah I'll give you that they do have less shooting than Tau. Also, for all the claims I would argue that necrons actually aren't that tremendously terrible in cc as many are claiming. Don't get me wrong, that isn't what they are best at, but they certainly have better assault units than IG for sure. Wraiths, scythes, doomlord, one or two named hqs even all are actually pretty good in cc especially for an army that obviously heavily leans towards shooting. That being said, I don't really scoff at you in disgust for taking a 15 point MSS. Is it underpriced? Yes. Is it arguably broken? Yes. Does it really play an unfair match against daemons? Yes. That being said, it's part of the book and it isn't near as bad as a 2++ invuln screamerstar list~

Hilarious that nobody has dared to mention Flayed Ones yet, I mean they were intended for cc but in truth... Oh, God, please wai--
*BLAM* Flayed Ones are so ridiculously terrible that talking about them is HERESY!

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Hilarious that nobody has dared to mention Flayed Ones yet, I mean they were intended for cc but in truth... Oh, God, please wai--
*BLAM* Flayed Ones are so ridiculously terrible that talking about them is HERESY!

*prays to the dark gods that the flayed ones get buffed like spawn*

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I can't help but agree with what everyone is saying. Sure, allow the model to attack at I1, or make the damn thing cost 20-30 points, or let people get an invuln save before they have to take a LD check, or something, I don't really know what the solution is.

But without MSS the Necrons are in sad sad shape, and so they are basically mandatory for a non-flier list. I would buy them even if they were 30ppm, but they aren't, so I buy them at 15 instead. I would have to buy them regardless.


As for the reason necrons suck at CC, it's not the individual characters so much as the squads, which will lose combat to any dedicated CC unit and then be swept, taking the character with them.

All non dedicated CC squads fall to dedicated CC squads. Thats pretty much how the rock paper scissors of 40K works. Also there is a huge table in the back of the rule book that practically begs any one faction to take some other faction to shore up their weaknesses. You know, just like any other faction that sucks at CC. MSS is no longer your "only" option. (I can't believe I just advocated the use of allies... stupidest rule ever written.)

Also having been on the bad end of Tesla spam, I can tell you Necrons sure as hell can out shoot Tau. They just have to do it from closer range which is usually perfectly fine for the D-lords, scarabs, Wraiths, etc. And While necrons do suffer from 1 attack and I2, they still have WS4, T4, and 3+ or 4+ base save, LD 9/10 and reanimation protocalls. I like their odds against other non dedicated CC units - should they happen to run into each other. Not to mention that god awful lightning shield thingy that seems to be purposely made to kill Ork Nobs.

I can understand the Necron player wanting to protect his codex. I really do. I got sick of defending JOTWW too (I've never once taken it as I find it too limited in a TAC environment). However, I respect that there are other (lots of others) who find it totally broken and there are enough of them that its probably not a fluke. MSS is the same thing, there are enough people out there that have such a strong reaction to it, its probably as broken as they say. Because if it wasn't broken or seen as unfun/unfair you would never see threads like this one.

The thing is, even with a tooled up MSS overlord, you'll shred most necron units (wraiths and scarabs aside) with basic cc units utilizing mass attacks. They'll lose combat badly, fail the LD and get swept with their I2 and the overlord won't be able to do jack about it.

Big tooled up baddies aren't going to be real effective against an overlord, but likewise that overlord isn't going to be real effective against a crapload of basic attacks.

So yeah, MSS could probably use a 10-15 point price bump, and I think they should swap MSS for phase shifters for destroyer lords, but it's not terribly difficult to overcome MSS.

The problem with MSS is that they should be LD tests on 4D6, affect the entire enemy unit (not just 1 model) and be readily available to any necron model characters who can purchase wargear, including crypteks.


No, just bump them up to 25-30-pts and problem solved. If you want to go extreme, make it a unique wargear with a limit of 1 per detachment.

Thud wrote:

Basically, it's like having someone slap you in the face with their dick and you can't do anything about it.

What type of cockamamie metaphor is this?

 jy2 wrote:
The problem with MSS is that they should be LD tests on 4D6, affect the entire enemy unit (not just 1 model) and be readily available to any necron model characters who can purchase wargear, including crypteks.


No, just bump them up to 25-30-pts and problem solved. If you want to go extreme, make it a unique wargear with a limit of 1 per detachment.

Thud wrote:

Basically, it's like having someone slap you in the face with their dick and you can't do anything about it.

What type of cockamamie metaphor is this?

No no no obviously necrons need to be protected. Every model in the necron codex should have a MSS and since you usually see tons of scarabs each scarab will possess the foe one time (so a squad of 3 necrons = the 10 enemies possessed 30 times), then it should be rolled 5d6. Oh and free!

 anonymou5 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
First, it's not D3 attacks, it's D3 hits.
Between that and the inevitable Warscythe, and the fact that whatever has the MSS can challenge, you're essentially guaranteed to kill whatever CC beat stick you find.

It means the 300+ point demon prince has to run like a coward from anything with an MSS.

Or he can not suck at the game, lol.

When I play against Necrons with my Circus, I charge the MSS unit with say, Dogs first and surround the character. Then I follow it up with the Prince. I choose the order of operations on my turn, thus MSS goes before challenge. A random Flesh Hound bites himself and my DP kills a DLord.

Then he gets back up and I fail at life, =)


MSS is annoying but there are ways around it. To play a power list like the Circus and have the audacity to complain about someone elses build is insane.

This^

Stop looking at every problem as a nail with your hammer.

Also, to almost every guard/tau commander (and most tyranid HQ"s - only the swarmlord has an invul) the match up with that demon prince feels just as hopeless.
Which a common response would be ..."don't get into CC with him....".

Exactly.

Take a shooty army and every MSS is 15 points wasted. Welcome to RockPaperHammer 40k.

Asking someone to leave out MSS so his three CC monsters can destroy his army in two turns flat is like asking someone to just bend over and take it up the you-know-what.

Sure MSS could use a slight cost increase and not be available to Lords, but let's be honest, who runs Lords these days anyway?

Wraiths and a DLord can be removed by shooting surprisingly easily by almost any army today. If not, just bubblewrap your DPs with Hounds or whatever tarpit unit you can think of. Also Overlords with their imba 2+ save are useless against MCs without their MSS. Just ID them with Smash S10 AP2 and call it a day.

Thud wrote:

Basically, it's like having someone slap you in the face with their dick and you can't do anything about it.

Weazel wrote:

is like asking someone to just bend over and take it up the you-know-what.

Is this a thread about MSS or S&M? Haha....just couldn't resist injecting some humor. This thread is penetrating down to my very core and my MSS isn't going to get me out of this one.

This thread is funny. It is like Tau players saying Riptide is "not that good" while fielding 2-3 of them. A necron player complaining about their lack of cc ability when they have the scythelords, wraiths and scarabs available. It doesn't matter that they also have the best airforce and extremely tough shooting.

We all know that the MSS will either change or go up in points. As it is, it is quite ridiculous.

davethepak wrote:Also, to almost every guard/tau commander (and most tyranid HQ"s - only the swarmlord has an invul) the match up with that demon prince feels just as hopeless.
Which a common response would be ..."don't get into CC with him....".

Exactly.

Thank you.

Weazel wrote:Take a shooty army and every MSS is 15 points wasted. Welcome to RockPaperHammer 40k.

Asking someone to leave out MSS so his three CC monsters can destroy his army in two turns flat is like asking someone to just bend over and take it up the you-know-what

Sure MSS could use a slight cost increase and not be available to Lords, but let's be honest, who runs Lords these days anyway?.

I do I need 4+ Res for my troopers. And thanks for the emphasised part.

i thought MSS was OP, till i found out most people "cheat" (unknowingly let say) with them and CHOOSE the target, rather then random one in BTB... and they were not letting me choose order of operations on my turn

D3 attacks? they have also been telling me my model makes its FULL attacks, with all special rules, IE i have to activate force weapons against myself...


its still undercosted by 15-20 pts.. a 15 pt item, in a list that is supposed to be the suck at close combat, that makes a cheap HQ the match of any 200-300-infinitypts character/monster is a bit much... CC is supposed the be their weekness FFS.

that being said, every codex has SOMETHING really REALLY good thats a bit too cheap at the moment (save for Orks, maybe grey knights/nids)

so id never refuse to play that person, I mean I hear the same thing pretty much about almost every army's good stuff

Riptides arent that shooty for the cost. People take them because as long as a dedicated CC unit doesnt catch them (or a JAWS) they dont fething die, so in the end they even out with crisis teams. ive been fielding less riptides than usual (2-3 in a 2000-2500pt game) because my opponents learned if they cut my troops down then play hide n seek i cant win because i cant shoot them back lol.

And for the record, Necron shooting is tougher than Tau shooting technically. Yes, we have more high AP weapons, but unless we spam the crap out of firewarriors and bring an ethereal or bring several broadsides our ROF is lacking compared to Necrons. To top it off, NECRONS GET BACK UP! Tau dont. No idea how many times ive failed to kill that last immortal and suddenly 2/3 the unit stood back up, negating most of my shooting. Only real difference is amount of pi plates and possible ignores cover, even though all our pi plates are also Gets Hot! lol

Well, the Cron dex clearly states what MSS can and cant do, so for the majority oif the time, those people would have been cheating knowingly.

But one point you have incorrectly labelled as 'cheating'; you can make people Force WEapon themselves.

MSS: a random model in base contact hits the closest models in his own unit d3 times, using the weapons he is equipped with.

This means that a tactical marine will pistol whip his friends.

This means that a sergeant with a power sword will power sword his friends.

This means that a model in a challenge will stab himself in the face, since he's a unit of one.

It takes some skill to properly utilise mindshackle scarabs to their greatest effect. Not a lot, but some. That said, they probably could do with being a little more expensive - but as for banning them on court lords? Feck off. If I (or, better, my opponent) wants to spend a hundred points on a sergeant, then so be it. I have bigger fish to immolate.

 IHateNids wrote:
Allow me to chop this up into manageable, relevant chunks.

 happygolucky wrote:
A) Its is the ultimate counter for your weakness in your army, you know biggest your weakness is your Int value, and I wouldn't have had such a big problem if it "stalled" my characters as you proclaim, if it did I would be happy as it meant that would be a challenge, but stalling would be something like I would not be able to attack your units, MSS does not do that, MSS KILLS my unit or heavily damages it to the point that its just waiting for a voice over of "FINSH HIM" from that guy in Mortal Combat which leads me to the next portion...

Lets be honest, you know as well as anyone in the thread that without the MSS, I am loosing 3 units a turn. Almost guaranteed.

That all I needed to know.

You said you wanted to know why FDP are such a big deal to everyone.

However you already know that without the MSS the FDP are going to cut through them.

So you already know why they are such a big deal (because they can really kill stuff).

So now the conversation has turned from "Why are FDP so bad?" to "how quickly can a get rid of some FDP"

If that's your attitude then your not going to get a game anytime soon from me.

Your problem is that you don't understand the power levels of 40k Sure you know what's good and what is not but you don't understand exactly how damaging certain stuff is, and again this whole "I need X Y Z" is ludicrous, again you don't understand power levels in 40k, for example that game I had against the Tyranid player last week, I could have easily said that I "need" FDP, that I "need" Helldrakes, hat I "need" Maulerfiends against Tervigon's and his MC but I chose not too, why? because A) he just wanted a game with some bug he doesn't normally use, B) I had no idea what he was going to use so I brought a list that would not be too powerful nor too weak and C) I wanted to experiment with different units for a bit of fun. This is understanding the power levels, I had really good units but chose not to use them because it would have made the game unfair for him, and this is two player game, not just me both player make it fun for eachother not just for one, so knowing you would not change your list (but to keep the game fun and/or interesting for both of us) I had the following options too choose:

A) Change my list: to which you wanted to specifically play the list I was experimenting with, proclaiming that you wanted to understand why FDP are so lethal, so I couldn't do that.

B) Ask you to take out MSS, so the game would be more fair for both, to which you replied with this thread and the lines of how you "need" MSS.

C) Ask you to play marines, since you wanted to understand why FDP are lethal so I suggested them to let you understand why they are so bad to others, but you went along the lines of "I know I will get trounced if I play them so no" so couldn't do that either..

D) Not play you.

Well I've tried three of those choices and you decided to stick your finger up at me, so meh I think I have no other option but D) now.

As I've said I don't find Necrons OP just that one piece of Wargear, tbh this thread just looks like you wanted pats on the backs from all the other Necron players saying how unfair the game would be if you did not have that piece of Wargear, then point to the big bad man with the FDP's (who never uses them, just wanted to test out something)..

 happygolucky wrote:
If that's your attitude then your not going to get a game anytime soon from me.

I read to that, and ignored everything after.

Dear the rest of the people reading this, do me a favour and rip this guy apart

Really over a game of man dollies?

Pathetic...

MSS don't really scare me. "OH NO! my guardsman is going to try to butt another guardsman in the head with his lasgun!" Now if I had a 150+ point guy falling to them he might actually do some damage.

 IHateNids wrote:

Weazel wrote:Take a shooty army and every MSS is 15 points wasted. Welcome to RockPaperHammer 40k.

Asking someone to leave out MSS so his three CC monsters can destroy his army in two turns flat is like asking someone to just bend over and take it up the you-know-what

Sure MSS could use a slight cost increase and not be available to Lords, but let's be honest, who runs Lords these days anyway?.

I do I need 4+ Res for my troopers. And thanks for the emphasised part.

So... You wanted to play against FDPs because you don't see what the big deal is, but you also acknowledge that they're brutal in CC and you have to use a severely under costed piece of equipment to deal with them.
How is that not knowing what the big deal is?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 IHateNids wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
If that's your attitude then your not going to get a game anytime soon from me.

I read to that, and ignored everything after.

Dear the rest of the people reading this, do me a favour and rip this guy apart

Actually - no. You started this thread saying:

Me: No, I want to see firsthand why people think FDPs are so ridiculous...
dont go wussing out because I have a couple of fancy trinkets XD

You won't see why they're ridiculous when you're using MSS.
You have the poor attitude here.

I did. that is true.

I also said that I would go a round without using them, to see what they were like, I believe in the section I quoted. If not, here is the majority of the conversation, identities removed (Im green):

rigeld2 wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:

Weazel wrote:Take a shooty army and every MSS is 15 points wasted. Welcome to RockPaperHammer 40k.

Asking someone to leave out MSS so his three CC monsters can destroy his army in two turns flat is like asking someone to just bend over and take it up the you-know-what

Sure MSS could use a slight cost increase and not be available to Lords, but let's be honest, who runs Lords these days anyway?.

I do I need 4+ Res for my troopers. And thanks for the emphasised part.

So... You wanted to play against FDPs because you don't see what the big deal is, but you also acknowledge that they're brutal in CC and you have to use a severely under costed piece of equipment to deal with them.
How is that not knowing what the big deal is?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 IHateNids wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
If that's your attitude then your not going to get a game anytime soon from me.

I read to that, and ignored everything after.

Dear the rest of the people reading this, do me a favour and rip this guy apart

Actually - no. You started this thread saying:

Me: No, I want to see firsthand why people think FDPs are so ridiculous...
dont go wussing out because I have a couple of fancy trinkets XD

You won't see why they're ridiculous when you're using MSS.
You have the poor attitude here.

Thank you at least someone here knows what im trying to say

 Furyou Miko wrote:
MSS: a random model in base contact hits the closest models in his own unit d3 times, using the weapons he is equipped with.
.

thats not how everyone has had me play them, they never make me make d3 attacks, its the # of attacks the model has IE a lot more usually, + force or whateever rules the weapons have

has EVERYONE i ever played who used MSS been cheating then?

 easysauce wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
MSS: a random model in base contact hits the closest models in his own unit d3 times, using the weapons he is equipped with.
.

thats not how everyone has had me play them, they never make me make d3 attacks, its the # of attacks the model has IE a lot more usually, + force or whateever rules the weapons have

has EVERYONE i ever played who used MSS been cheating then?

If what you are saying is true than yes. Perhaps not with intent to cheat however. They do get to use your weapons against you however. So they can use your force weapon activation or black mace or whatever else you may have.

 easysauce wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
MSS: a random model in base contact hits the closest models in his own unit d3 times, using the weapons he is equipped with.
.

thats not how everyone has had me play them, they never make me make d3 attacks, its the # of attacks the model has IE a lot more usually, + force or whateever rules the weapons have

has EVERYONE i ever played who used MSS been cheating then?

Do you never ask to see their codex? It's pretty clear how it works in there.
But yes - they can force weapon you to death.

JPong wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
MSS: a random model in base contact hits the closest models in his own unit d3 times, using the weapons he is equipped with.
.

thats not how everyone has had me play them, they never make me make d3 attacks, its the # of attacks the model has IE a lot more usually, + force or whateever rules the weapons have

has EVERYONE i ever played who used MSS been cheating then?

If what you are saying is true than yes. Perhaps not with intent to cheat however. They do get to use your weapons against you however. So they can use your force weapon activation or black mace or whatever else you may have.

They don't get the +D6 daemon weapon attacks with the Black Mace. They do get the Fleshbane and Toughness test, however.

Also, daemon princes are ld9, so even worse....

I also notice that the only people griping about MSS are those who are using daemon princes of some sort. If it's that much of an issue, only have 1 or 2 DP, or even none, and if you do, use a more conservative approach than the "run-amok-squishing-every-enemy-in-my-path" strategy. Believe it or not, there are was of dealing with MSS.

I don't really see a problem with MSS, coming from a Space Marine that's been punked by Crons (guess im lucky i make my 3D6s). I never just send my ultra killy CM solo against the MSS lord, the key (just like with killing riptides) is to mitigate mss by feeding a lowly sgt. And have your killy CM or similar character rampage through his unit, and then utilize the big necron weakness, low iniative, to punk him by sweeping his unit, hich then he will have to test for his RP, because he has the same chance to get back up as you have to hit yourself.

 KommissarKiln wrote:
I also notice that the only people griping about MSS are those who are using daemon princes of some sort. If it's that much of an issue, only have 1 or 2 DP, or even none, and if you do, use a more conservative approach than the "run-amok-squishing-every-enemy-in-my-path" strategy. Believe it or not, there are was of dealing with MSS.

There are, yes.
But there's a difference between "Let's see what FDPs can do!" And "Let's see what FDPs can do when I force them to ignore my troops and HQs!"

I don't run Demons, I'm a Tyranid player - but the issues are similar.

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Believe it or not, there are was of dealing with MSS.

As long as you remember the "random" and - if charging - only challenge after the Necron has resolved MSS.

I actually had a Necron player ask about the models in b-2-b with his Dlord and then decide to MSS the otherwise regular squad leader that had pistol+CCW instead of a bolter. What with having two Doomscythes tearing up everything with their silly beam I never even thought to question him on that minor thing.

MSS is not the only thing often played incorrectly. I've seen Trazyn used in many "clever" ways that definitely are not supported by the rules.

 happygolucky wrote:
Now against your Necrons I know if you take MSS, my FDP can never go near them they will have to go for your tanks, but what after that? just Vector strike them? seems a waste of points tbh, so how to take them out? as I have already said im just gonna have to roll a ton of shooting attacks and pray your lords drop and stay down, so no real tactical thinking just need to pray for lucky rolling... oh so fun...

So avoiding a SINGLE model in an opponents army makes your FDP effectively useless? You also have a strange definition of tactics. Tactics specifically is the process of analyzing your opponent's force and applying the correct response to deal with the threat presented. It is thinking and adapting and dealing with new situations as they arise. It is planning up front that your FDP will deal with units A, B and C, and then finding out that A has a piece of wargear that makes melee with it a dangerous prospect and shooting at that unit instead. By making that decision you are performing "real tactical thinking".

I just have little time for players who obsess and whine over the fact that ONE unit in their army can't take on ONE unit in the opponent's army and then acts as if the whole game is pointless to play then. Such extreme catastrophisizing is just pointless, because you both have FULL armies. So your FDP can go after and attack every part of your opponent's army except for the Lord with the MSS. Meanwhile every other unit in your army can shoot the bejeebus out of the Lord instead and deal with the threat while your FDP is off crunching other units. How is this so catastrophic and how is this going to ruin a game? It just makes zero sense to me.

And yes I have 7 different chaos themed armies, which all have some kind fo daemon prince or other killing melee HQ options. I just don't charge them solo into a model that can cause them to kill themselves when I don't need to do so...

Skriker

As someone who has a CD army and regularly plays against a Necron opponent, I can say that MSS can potentially neuter a CD army if every character has them (as the OP indicated). I honestly don't blame his opponent for not wanting to run that army against him, because if the main source of damage is tied up in the FDPs, they just got negated if the OP is putting the MSS bearer up front to actually get in BTB from the charge (otherwise, as somebody already said, make Necron player resolve MSS first before challenges are issued when the MC charges).

Exactly, Skriker. What's the point of playing if you want to run the same list the same way every time? Accept that you'll come across counters to ONE of your trump cards once in a while. Then you can actually appreciate a true challenge and try to adapt. Then you feel even better when you do overcome such a a list.

Or is 40k now a WAAC ordeal with one "real" list per codex?

Yeah, it's totally a WAAC move to decline playing a game where he expects to have zero fun. He should absolutely donate a few hours of his life to make the Necron player happy. Good point.

If all of the Daemon List's killing power is in a few beatstick characters, that isn't good list design. A good cc squad will mop up Necrons in CC just fine.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
If all of the Daemon List's killing power is in a few beatstick characters, that isn't good list design. A good cc squad will mop up Necrons in CC just fine.

An he said he'd run a different list, just not that one.
No one is defending the list.

ClassicCarraway wrote:As someone who has a CD army and regularly plays against a Necron opponent, I can say that MSS can potentially neuter a CD army if every character has them (as the OP indicated). I honestly don't blame his opponent for not wanting to run that army against him, because if the main source of damage is tied up in the FDPs, they just got negated if the OP is putting the MSS bearer up front to actually get in BTB from the charge (otherwise, as somebody already said, make Necron player resolve MSS first before challenges are issued when the MC charges).

rigeld2 wrote:
An he said he'd run a different list, just not that one.
No one is defending the list.

Emphasis mine in the first quote.

My response was to the emphasized part in the initial quote provided in this post.

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Exactly, Skriker. What's the point of playing if you want to run the same list the same way every time? Accept that you'll come across counters to ONE of your trump cards once in a while. Then you can actually appreciate a true challenge and try to adapt. Then you feel even better when you do overcome such a a list.

Its not the fact that a counter can trump a list (this was an experiment and I just wanted to throw stuff out to gain experience what they do particularly well and what they don't do so well in) I don't mind losing, as I have said multiple times.

However this is not a counter to one list nor one unit.

I play mainly CSM (and Orks) and the majority of my Codex's is CC orientated, therefore is doesn't just counter one unit in my codex, it counters the majortiy of units in my codex is why I get worked up about it, to know I am forced to resort to the usual shooty options I usually play in order to compete against his army loadout when I like experimenting with ideas puts my enjoyment down for 40k.

Anyway we found out on the weekend that the OP did not really need MSS, mainly because he fought our 'Nid player and he passed his MSS tests, but his MC were still killed off through the Warscythe of the Lords (and he got slay the warlord from that method as well).

Just goes to show that he doesn't really need it but just wanted it, to make sure my FDP should not do anything against him.

Anyho me and the OP have resolved the matter, and im just saying now that if he wants to make lists to curbstomp experimental lists, then its ok because after this episode I've quite frankly lost most of my enjoyment from 40k anyway (and the OP has known this for quite a while), im just here now to see nicely painted models on the board.

And so this case is now resolved closed between me and the OP.

 jy2 wrote:

JPong wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
MSS: a random model in base contact hits the closest models in his own unit d3 times, using the weapons he is equipped with.
.

thats not how everyone has had me play them, they never make me make d3 attacks, its the # of attacks the model has IE a lot more usually, + force or whateever rules the weapons have

has EVERYONE i ever played who used MSS been cheating then?

If what you are saying is true than yes. Perhaps not with intent to cheat however. They do get to use your weapons against you however. So they can use your force weapon activation or black mace or whatever else you may have.

They don't get the +D6 daemon weapon attacks with the Black Mace. They do get the Fleshbane and Toughness test, however.

Might be a stupid question has I dont have any codexes infront of me...
but why would you not get the D6 attacks from the black mace? doesnt MSS say that you use their weapons and all their benefits?

Because they don't actually make any attacks, they just hit their unit d3 times. The Daemon Weapon rule grants extra attacks, the Mindshackle hits are instead of attacking.

thanks

 happygolucky wrote:

Anyhow me and the OP have resolved the matter, and im just saying now that if he wants to make lists to curbstomp experimental lists, then its ok because after this episode I've quite frankly lost most of my enjoyment from 40k anyway (and the OP has known this for quite a while), im just here now to see nicely painted models on the board.

This is a response to the emphasised section. While it may be case closed, I would like to make it known that I have always ran lists with Lords up the front of my units with WS/SW/MSS/RO, as Happy knows.
Since the dex dropped in 5th Edition.
And he still bitches that I Tailor my lists.

 happygolucky wrote:

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Exactly, Skriker. What's the point of playing if you want to run the same list the same way every time? Accept that you'll come across counters to ONE of your trump cards once in a while. Then you can actually appreciate a true challenge and try to adapt. Then you feel even better when you do overcome such a a list.

Its not the fact that a counter can trump a list (this was an experiment and I just wanted to throw stuff out to gain experience what they do particularly well and what they don't do so well in) I don't mind losing, as I have said multiple times.

However this is not a counter to one list nor one unit.

I play mainly CSM (and Orks) and the majority of my Codex's is CC orientated, therefore is doesn't just counter one unit in my codex, it counters the majortiy of units in my codex is why I get worked up about it, to know I am forced to resort to the usual shooty options I usually play in order to compete against his army loadout when I like experimenting with ideas puts my enjoyment down for 40k.

Anyway we found out on the weekend that the OP did not really need MSS, mainly because he fought our 'Nid player and he passed his MSS tests, but his MC were still killed off through the Warscythe of the Lords (and he got slay the warlord from that method as well).

Just goes to show that he doesn't really need it but just wanted it, to make sure my FDP should not do anything against him.

Anyho me and the OP have resolved the matter, and im just saying now that if he wants to make lists to curbstomp experimental lists, then its ok because after this episode I've quite frankly lost most of my enjoyment from 40k anyway (and the OP has known this for quite a while), im just here now to see nicely painted models on the board.

And so this case is now resolved closed between me and the OP.

First, I'll give you merit for your thoughts, people really ought to express that to each other more. None of us are 100% wrong or right here.

Have you tried driving a mob of 30+ Boyz or 30+ Gaunts brood into a MSS unit? Hordes will generally fare much better against MSS, since sheer weight of numbers will water down the potency of MSS and there'll be plenty of others to bring some hurt. That said, there are ways this will not work, including a number of Tesla shots from that nearby immortal squad, but in terms of simply the one with MSS and any squad he's attached to vs. the horde, you've much better chance of success.

I would not turn down a Necron player purely because they've included them, nor would it really hamper my efforts, but mother of christ are they one of the dumbest rules ever to be thought up.

They suck the life and fun out of the game completely when that dude you spent hours and hours painting and prepping has a huge chance to almost auto-die or do nothing for a turn at the very least. They make no sense; of all the times 'look out sir!' would seem realistic, why not with these? Why does it happen at the I10 step in a Codex where the general gist is that everything has absurdly low initiative?

They're just more fuel on the blazing fire that is the crappiness of generic Imperial CC characters with few exceptions. I'd definitely say for their absurd price and availability to even lesser Lords, they'r e way too overpowered before you even consider how effective they are, they should at most be around 20% effective unless they receive a mass cost increase.

I would have to agree with KommisarKiln. As a necron player, hordes of wimpy units will wear down anyone running MSS. Also people I've played against have been smart enough to direct their CC units to my own scoring units away from my lord, concentrating on wiping those out while using lots of gunfire to focus fire down my lord where possible.

Really, the Lord and Overlord aren't that great in CC. It's the weargear that makes them good, and hordes of smaller units will just win in weight of numbers as the lacklustre WS starts to show through.

Played against a cron player this weekend that had MSS on his hq.

Guess what, I did not attack that squad with my beatstick, I killed him with other means.

Crons are terrible in CC (other than wraiths, but you can dakka them down, they have no WBB and its only a 3+).

I hate to say it, but its not that hard - what is hard, is players who are not used to having to use strategy with their otherwise incredibly powerful beatstick.

My apologies if this is an unpopular view - but this has been echoed many times in this thread - use your brain not your deathstar - the most dangerous unit in any army is the player.

I will rant on here - to me, this is a symptom of people who are always looking for "whats the best army" or "whats the best ally" or "whats the best combo"."what hq can roll face!".

I learned 40k with arguably one of the worst armies at the time (I started with tau in 5th edition....and competed with them - yeah, it was brutal). But if you can actually learn to play the game, and think for yourself, then once you get a better army, you will be amazed at how much of a better player (my next army was incredibly easy after cutting my teeth with tau in 5th).

Are MSS nasty....sure, I avoid getting into CC with them if I can, or I deliberately send a junk unit to just tie them up. Come on guys, you are better than this thread - you owe it to yourself to invest in becoming a better player.
You are worth it.
(end rant).

Yeah, sorry. I must be a bad player. Sorry I suck so much, I'll try not to suck next time.

rigeld2 wrote:
Yeah, sorry. I must be a bad player. Sorry I suck so much, I'll try not to suck next time.

I was being serious. You sir are not.

But read the actual advice by the players who are trying to give actual sincere feedback, it will make you a better player.

Or tell you what, get the necron codex, proxy up a list, and learn them. Nothing helps you learn how to beat an army better than by playing them.

Now, if you want to continue to be silly and trite....well, then perhaps I can't dispute your self assessment.

 KonTheory wrote:

Might be a stupid question has I dont have any codexes infront of me...
but why would you not get the D6 attacks from the black mace? doesnt MSS say that you use their weapons and all their benefits?

It's been clarified in the Necron FAQ's:


Q: If mindshackle scarabs are used against a model whose weapon
gives them additional Attacks in close combat for any reason, are these
attacks added to the number of hits the model causes on their unit (for
example a Daemon Weapon)? (p81)
A: No.

Exactly what stops a Dlord with KWs from engaging on anything they want to MSS and kill?

guns.

That unit is majority toughness 4, non with EW. so a Vindicator removes a fair few, then Bolters can tidy up. The unit has the survivability of assault Marines against anything not AP3+.

If the DLord has a 2+, then mass Plasma till he goes down and stays down.

davethepak wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yeah, sorry. I must be a bad player. Sorry I suck so much, I'll try not to suck next time.

I was being serious. You sir are not.

But read the actual advice by the players who are trying to give actual sincere feedback, it will make you a better player.

Or tell you what, get the necron codex, proxy up a list, and learn them. Nothing helps you learn how to beat an army better than by playing them.

Now, if you want to continue to be silly and trite....well, then perhaps I can't dispute your self assessment.

I have own against MSScrons. That means nothing to the topic at hand. I know how to win against them but that doesn't change the fact (not opinion) that's its a ludicrously powerful piece of equipment. It's not fun to play against as when I do the fun thing with my 260 point Flyrants (charge them in to CC) I get MSSed and kill myself - sometimes before he even bothers swinging. On my turn I resolve MSS, challenge, kill him, he stands back up and resolves MSS on his turn killing me. Happens far too often to think about. So now I avoid CC like the plague and try and snipe out the one wound wonders and hope he fails the EL roll.

I'm not a bad player. It's just a stupidly powerful piece of equipment. On overlords? Annoying but fine. On essentially sergeants? Just... why?

I found that MSS is not that effective against groups. It's randomly determined who will be targeted by a unit in B2b contact with a lord, so a clever player will put chaff in contact with the MSS bearer, and have his more important soldiers take out whoever is accompanying the lord. That's happened to me a few times.

Lords are not sergeants. They are more like Commissars or Fireblades.

Now with monsters it's easy - you don't charge the MSS. A necron army that goes heavy MSS isn't going to have much else in it.
If you are going to charge one, send something expendable, or charge them with 2 monsters. Only 1 can be MSS'd

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Lords are not sergeants. They are more like Commissars or Fireblades.

They're essentially sergeants - they act as upgrade characters in the squad you attach them to and they cannot leave the squad. Yes, you have to pay for them.

rigeld2 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Lords are not sergeants. They are more like Commissars or Fireblades.

They're essentially sergeants - they act as upgrade characters in the squad you attach them to and they cannot leave the squad. Yes, you have to pay for them.

Like fireblades and commies there is a limited number of them and they provide abilities and items to the squad, and they have to be joined from a unit from a special "free" FO slot.

Every marine squad can have a sergeant. Only 1-10 squads of warriors, lychguards, deathmarks or immortals can have a lord, and that's only if you have 1-2 overlords in your army.
They are also much more expensive points wise than a sergeant - a lord with MSS is 50 points, and that's without the scythe.

 happygolucky wrote:
I play mainly CSM (and Orks) and the majority of my Codex's is CC orientated, therefore is doesn't just counter one unit in my codex, it counters the majortiy of units in my codex is why I get worked up about it, to know I am forced to resort to the usual shooty options I usually play in order to compete against his army loadout when I like experimenting with ideas puts my enjoyment down for 40k.

Anyway we found out on the weekend that the OP did not really need MSS, mainly because he fought our 'Nid player and he passed his MSS tests, but his MC were still killed off through the Warscythe of the Lords (and he got slay the warlord from that method as well).

Sorry mate, but I've got 4 full CSM armies and each of them has more than enough shooting to deal with a single necron HQ with MSS. I understand your experimental issues, but that is the nature of the beast. If you play an army that is 99.9% melee focused, you can't then gripe if you opponent has something like MSS that makes it difficult for your melee combat characters to assault them. It isn't your opponent's fault. It is YOUR fault for building the army you did. If you don't want to play that match up it is up to you to play something else, but don't complain about your opponent just because they won't change their army at the last minute to accomodate you. I play crazy builds all the time and more often it leads to some seriously lopsided games not in my favor. That is how it goes with those kinds of lists. Don't ever want that problem? Then only play TAC lists that cover all of your bases for you in every game. If you don't want to play TAC lists then just take your lumps and deal. Besides MSS isn't an instant counter. There are dice rolls involved. I might feel bad for you if having MSS meant instant hits on you if you charged the necron with them, but it doesn't.

To the last quote paragraph I say, "So what?" By your logic I don't need to give my SM character an iron halo because in one game I played at the game day I made all my armor saving throws and never faced anything with an AP of 3. That is just silly. Contingencies are there because you can't be certain that everything will always go your way. In the next game when my oppoent's force is full of force swords that Iron Halo will be pretty darn useful to have same with the MSS when the dice fail to produce for the necron lord with his warscythe.

Skriker

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Lords are not sergeants. They are more like Commissars or Fireblades.

They're essentially sergeants - they act as upgrade characters in the squad you attach them to and they cannot leave the squad. Yes, you have to pay for them.

Like fireblades and commies there is a limited number of them and they provide abilities and items to the squad, and they have to be joined from a unit from a special "free" FO slot.

Every marine squad can have a sergeant. Only 1-10 squads of warriors, lychguards, deathmarks or immortals can have a lord, and that's only if you have 1-2 overlords in your army.
They are also much more expensive points wise than a sergeant - a lord with MSS is 50 points, and that's without the scythe.

The important part is that they lead squads, can't leave squads, and those squads don't have any other unit leader type.

They're sergeants like Wolf Guard are sergeants. Comissars and Fireblades are independent characters who happen to be best off in a squad. Wolf Guard and Royal Courts are only effective when acting as a sergeant or acting as a death star.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Lords are not sergeants. They are more like Commissars or Fireblades.

They're essentially sergeants - they act as upgrade characters in the squad you attach them to and they cannot leave the squad. Yes, you have to pay for them.

Like fireblades and commies there is a limited number of them and they provide abilities and items to the squad, and they have to be joined from a unit from a special "free" FO slot.

Every marine squad can have a sergeant. Only 1-10 squads of warriors, lychguards, deathmarks or immortals can have a lord, and that's only if you have 1-2 overlords in your army.
They are also much more expensive points wise than a sergeant - a lord with MSS is 50 points, and that's without the scythe.

The important part is that they lead squads, can't leave squads, and those squads don't have any other unit leader type.

They're sergeants like Wolf Guard are sergeants. Comissars and Fireblades are independent characters who happen to be best off in a squad. Wolf Guard and Royal Courts are only effective when acting as a sergeant or acting as a death star.

Fair enough. Wolf Guard is a better comparison anyway. Except you can take more wolf guard than you can take lords.

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm not a bad player. It's just a stupidly powerful piece of equipment. On overlords? Annoying but fine. On essentially sergeants? Just... why?

Simply put: it isn't that MSS are too powerful. It is that flying uber killy melee monsters have made players lazy. They want to just fly in, kill something and fly out. Armies that do not rely on this tactic don't seem to have many problems dealing with MSS, nor do they complain about how over powered they are either.

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm not a bad player. It's just a stupidly powerful piece of equipment. On overlords? Annoying but fine. On essentially sergeants? Just... why?

Simply put: it isn't that MSS are too powerful. It is that flying uber killy melee monsters have made players lazy. They want to just fly in, kill something and fly out. Armies that do not rely on this tactic don't seem to have many problems dealing with MSS, nor do they complain about how over powered they are either.

... Not lazy and I resent the implication. Most armies have options - Nidzilla (for example, a viable in pretty much all other scenarios and relatively fluffy build) doesn't really.
If MSS are so worthless because everyone can handle them, why do I see them on pretty much every model that can have them? You'd think that if there were so many counters they wouldn't get used. Man, there is some bad list building going on.

 Skriker wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm not a bad player. It's just a stupidly powerful piece of equipment. On overlords? Annoying but fine. On essentially sergeants? Just... why?

Simply put: it isn't that MSS are too powerful. It is that flying uber killy melee monsters have made players lazy. They want to just fly in, kill something and fly out. Armies that do not rely on this tactic don't seem to have many problems dealing with MSS, nor do they complain about how over powered they are either.

Skriker

I would think that sitting back and shooting is more lazy then trying to get a relatively fragile character across the board.

 KommissarKiln wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Exactly, Skriker. What's the point of playing if you want to run the same list the same way every time? Accept that you'll come across counters to ONE of your trump cards once in a while. Then you can actually appreciate a true challenge and try to adapt. Then you feel even better when you do overcome such a a list.

Its not the fact that a counter can trump a list (this was an experiment and I just wanted to throw stuff out to gain experience what they do particularly well and what they don't do so well in) I don't mind losing, as I have said multiple times.

However this is not a counter to one list nor one unit.

I play mainly CSM (and Orks) and the majority of my Codex's is CC orientated, therefore is doesn't just counter one unit in my codex, it counters the majortiy of units in my codex is why I get worked up about it, to know I am forced to resort to the usual shooty options I usually play in order to compete against his army loadout when I like experimenting with ideas puts my enjoyment down for 40k.

Anyway we found out on the weekend that the OP did not really need MSS, mainly because he fought our 'Nid player and he passed his MSS tests, but his MC were still killed off through the Warscythe of the Lords (and he got slay the warlord from that method as well).

Just goes to show that he doesn't really need it but just wanted it, to make sure my FDP should not do anything against him.

Anyho me and the OP have resolved the matter, and im just saying now that if he wants to make lists to curbstomp experimental lists, then its ok because after this episode I've quite frankly lost most of my enjoyment from 40k anyway (and the OP has known this for quite a while), im just here now to see nicely painted models on the board.

And so this case is now resolved closed between me and the OP.

First, I'll give you merit for your thoughts, people really ought to express that to each other more. None of us are 100% wrong or right here.

Have you tried driving a mob of 30+ Boyz or 30+ Gaunts brood into a MSS unit? Hordes will generally fare much better against MSS, since sheer weight of numbers will water down the potency of MSS and there'll be plenty of others to bring some hurt. That said, there are ways this will not work, including a number of Tesla shots from that nearby immortal squad, but in terms of simply the one with MSS and any squad he's attached to vs. the horde, you've much better chance of success.

When I played with my Orks at the start of 6th ed. I did try mobz of boyz, but the problem I had was that when they were 30 boyz I had to foot slog, and I was foot slogging into a gunline of gauss and tesla, so they boyz used to get whittled down very quickly before they could get into combat, so that 30 boyz suddenly become 15 or 12 meaning that whilst they would be effective in combat they would not be up to full strength with attacks. I shelved my Orks when people started advising me to shelve them as they suddenly became "nerfed" in 6th, so Im waiting on their new codex coming out, (and I wager that they will be the next big thing beating the supposed new Tyranid codex that people bet on being the next big codex )

 Skriker wrote:

Sorry mate, but I've got 4 full CSM armies and each of them has more than enough shooting to deal with a single necron HQ with MSS.

We are not talking about army's we are talking about lists, and I doubt you could set in all of your units from one of your armies in one list.

I understand your experimental issues, but that is the nature of the beast. If you play an army that is 99.9% melee focused, you can't then gripe if you opponent has something like MSS that makes it difficult for your melee combat characters to assault them. It isn't your opponent's fault. It is YOUR fault for building the army you did.

Maybe, but that's all part of the experimenting process, I want to find out what goes well with each other, I want to learn during a game how one unit that could cover another and vice versa, and I cant really learn how they can if there is one piece of unit that is extremely hard to get rid of the board, leading me to not really learn anything new, that I knew beforehand. Sure I can kill it but the real question is, could I kill it quick enough so that the I can give other units a chance?

If you don't want to play that match up it is up to you to play something else

This is why I told the OP I would change my list, to give something more suitable for him to give him more of a challenge, however the OP was forcing me to use that list against him as he wanted to learn as well why FDP were so bad, however knowing they were a big threat already he decided that he would use MSS anyway, which to me changed his motive of the game.

but don't complain about your opponent just because they won't change their army at the last minute to accommodate you.

I never did complain, firstly because I asked I would changed my list, the OP did not allow me to do so, I then asked him to remove the piece of Wargear for learning purposes, alas he did not (then decided to make this thread), I only replied to this thread because this thread felt like the OP just made it to slag me off tbh as if he was tugging the shirt of Dakka pointing to the big bad man with the FDP, so I came on and voiced my opinion, as I have said through this thread on Dakka I have nothing against Necrons, I do not think that Necrons are OP, hell in Facebook groups im the one usually defending Necrons from everyone screaming OP at them, my only problem ever was with MSS, because to me it is the ultimate straightforward counter to their weakness, which is their Int. that means that they are really good not only in shooting but in CC, and can get Slay the warlord outright.

I play crazy builds all the time and more often it leads to some seriously lopsided games not in my favor.

Fair do's more power to you, Ive only just started to try out new lists and here is why...

Don't ever want that problem? Then only play TAC lists that cover all of your bases for you in every game. If you don't want to play TAC lists then just take your lumps and deal.

... Guess what I usually play? the fact is im getting bored of 40k, because im just using the same things over and over again and so I wanted to spice thing up and still have a equal chance of winning. as Ive said again I was prepared to change the list so that it offered more of a challenge to my opponent, but alas he only wanted to play that list which I was not prepared to use against him.

Besides MSS isn't an instant counter. There are dice rolls involved. I might feel bad for you if having MSS meant instant hits on you if you charged the Necron with them, but it doesn't.

The fact is as I have learned time and time again from experience no matter what I throw at an Overlord or whatnot, every time I throw my hardest CC unit into an Overlord or regular lord with MSS, they always have taken most of the wounds themselves, ready to be violated by a warscythe.

To the last quote paragraph I say, "So what?" By your logic I don't need to give my SM character an iron halo because in one game I played at the game day I made all my armour saving throws and never faced anything with an AP of 3. That is just silly. Contingencies are there because you can't be certain that everything will always go your way. In the next game when my opponent's force is full of force swords that Iron Halo will be pretty darn useful to have same with the MSS when the dice fail to produce for the Necron lord with his warscythe.

The difference between a contingency and MSS is that stuff like Iron halo's are nifty little tools that are nice to have and do save you from getting totally beat up. MSS on the other hand is its not a contingency as it is relied upon by the Necron every time, it makes the Necron Lord/Overlord lazy as he's not putting up a fight just letting an undercosted piece of Wargear take his way. You know what the penalty is for when the Warscythe fails to hit? the other guy/female/xeno still lives for another turn, that should be suffice enough, it is not a contingency, its a mandatory piece of Wargear that is always relied upon, and you never should rely upon contingency's as they should be a nifty thing that could mean the difference for a units survivability nothing more.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 IHateNids wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

Anyhow me and the OP have resolved the matter, and im just saying now that if he wants to make lists to curbstomp experimental lists, then its ok because after this episode I've quite frankly lost most of my enjoyment from 40k anyway (and the OP has known this for quite a while), im just here now to see nicely painted models on the board.

This is a response to the emphasised section. While it may be case closed, I would like to make it known that I have always ran lists with Lords up the front of my units with WS/SW/MSS/RO, as Happy knows.
Since the dex dropped in 5th Edition.
And he still bitches that I Tailor my lists.

I don't "bitch" about you tailoring your lists, I have only occasionally said this when you keep proxying stuff you have not told me about before, on the day of the game when you do not have a written list prepared.

In all honesty I don't give anymore fecks if you even used croissant crons, I don't really care about 40k anymore, after this episode it has really sucked my enjoyment out of 40k.

I guess my frustration is really that you cant even take criticism for your codex, you can quite happily shout on about how other army's are "too good" (prime case being the Apoc game we had when we and our Tau player teamed up against IG and GK, where I charged my DP into a unit of GK paladins, got confused about which grenades they had and then got slaughtered, then you started ranting on about how GK were "too good for their points" in your words IIRC, and how GK were the "auto-win button against daemons", hell I even just said flat out to you that in the GK players defence you had MSS, to which you then had a go at me saying how the codex writes are not at fault, which went OT real fast and left me confused as it had nothing to do with that game at all) but as soon as someone else has the smallest criticism such as MSS you go on and on how your Wargear is "fair for Necrons" and spout out threads like these, just to make the other player feel bad about their opinions (and don't say it doesn't because this thread really has just sucked a lot of enjoyment out of 40k for me as it basically told me that I cannot have my own opinion on stuff in army's, however it is noted that very, very recently you have started admitting that certain stuff was undercosted for your codex).

I will freely admit now, that I used to get worked up on how people used to go on and on about Helldrakes (considering that the rest of my codex is mediocre imo- oh wait sorry I just remembered that was not allowed my opinion about stuff in 40k!) but now I really just don't care what people say about that unit and just post this pic as my response:



I suggest whenever you see someone yell that your whole army is OP then you should do the same, but not when its just one piece of Wargear (unless of course its a highly unused piece of Wargear such as the tacheyon, or whatever it is arrow), as I have said dozens of time I do not find Necrons OP, but obviously im the big bad man with the Daemons Netlist (your words exact) which I fail to see as that list requires Grimore and Helldrakes, both of which did not appear in my list.

So yeah I care very little about 40k atm, considering on how my opinion is supposedly "wrong" by your standards.

Dude, you are digging yourself a bigger hole here, and so much in that post is wrong, Im not even going to go into it, the rest of the thread will do that.

 IHateNids wrote:
Dude, you are digging yourself a bigger hole here, and so much in that post is wrong, Im not even going to go into it, the rest of the thread will do that.

Not really, you just want to slag me off on this thread as you don't want me to have my own opinion on army's and to think that 40k is perfectly balanced when it is not.

You just made this thread to listen to the posters who sympathise you, and to make me feel bad about my opinion.

 happygolucky wrote:
You just made this thread to listen to the posters who sympathise you, and to make me feel bad about my opinion.

This.

 happygolucky wrote:
This is why I told the OP I would change my list, to give something more suitable for him to give him more of a challenge, however the OP was forcing me to use that list against him as he wanted to learn as well why FDP were so bad, however knowing they were a big threat already he decided that he would use MSS anyway, which to me changed his motive of the game.

I never did complain, firstly because I asked I would changed my list, the OP did not allow me to do so, I then asked him to remove the piece of Wargear for learning purposes, alas he did not (then decided to make this thread), I only replied to this thread because this thread felt like the OP just made it to slag me off tbh as if he was tugging the shirt of Dakka pointing to the big bad man with the FDP, so I came on and voiced my opinion, as I have said through this thread on Dakka I have nothing against Necrons, I do not think that Necrons are OP, hell in Facebook groups im the one usually defending Necrons from everyone screaming OP at them, my only problem ever was with MSS, because to me it is the ultimate straightforward counter to their weakness, which is their Int. that means that they are really good not only in shooting but in CC, and can get Slay the warlord outright.

My apologies on this one. I definitely missed the direct of the ire here. Not your fault and you did try to step back and play something else. Mea culpa. My own previous dislike with necrons was their ability to stand back up again. Just always saw that as a really annoying ability. Push in, crush an important unit to take an objective and then have half the unit stand back up again. It bugged me until I realized that units with feel no pain do pretty much the same thing, they just don't "die" first so it stopped bugging me so much.

... Guess what I usually play? the fact is im getting bored of 40k, because im just using the same things over and over again and so I wanted to spice thing up and still have a equal chance of winning. as Ive said again I was prepared to change the list so that it offered more of a challenge to my opponent, but alas he only wanted to play that list which I was not prepared to use against him.

If this is your first forays into experimentals, then definitely get into the mode of knowing that sometimes your experiment just isn't going to work against an opponent. This is just how it is. I do my testing of lists at home or specifically invite a friend over to test something while making it clear before they show up that I would like them to play a specific kind of army. All in all, though, playing alternate lists is fun and different. Just have to take the good with the bad. There is no guarantee of still having an equal chance of winning with your focused list as you discovered. I would recommend, though, that instead of bailing on the list because of the presence of specific wargear of an opponent's accept the challange and see how far you can succeed with what you clearly felt was an unfair advantage against your force. Often that is one of the most satisfying aspects of playing those kinds of lists: You are effectively at a disadvantage, but pull up a good showing for yourself and sometimes even pull out wins which are all the better. THIS will ultimately give you a lot of satisfaction in the game as it takes the hardcore focus off of winning all the time and puts it more into inventive play and approaches on the table top. In this edition melee focused armies are just going to be at an overall disadvantage no matter the opponent.

The difference between a contingency and MSS is that stuff like Iron halo's are nifty little tools that are nice to have and do save you from getting totally beat up. MSS on the other hand is its not a contingency as it is relied upon by the Necron every time, it makes the Necron Lord/Overlord lazy as he's not putting up a fight just letting an undercosted piece of Wargear take his way. You know what the penalty is for when the Warscythe fails to hit? the other guy/female/xeno still lives for another turn, that should be suffice enough, it is not a contingency, its a mandatory piece of Wargear that is always relied upon, and you never should rely upon contingency's as they should be a nifty thing that could mean the difference for a units survivability nothing more.

As a CSM player how would you take it if everyone started telling you that you never should rely on multiple flying daemon princes and should only ever use one or none in every game? Would you embrace their expectations and change your army from that point on? Probably not. Same thing with people telling Tau players they can't have more than one riptide. If it is in the codex and they are not breaking any rules by using it, you can't expect an opponent to not use the things just because you don't think they shouldn't be relied on. I don't usually use multiple DPs, but would still tell people to mind to their own lists and stop telling me how to run mine just the same. No one bats an eye at Iron Halos because they are purely defensive. All they do is keep your character from getting killed as easily. The MSS are defensive, but in an offensive way. That just irriates the heck out of people.

I will agree that if everyone always takes MSS then yes they are being lazy too. Any kind of spamming breeds laziness. If I use enough of "X" I won't have to think about the game as much, so they don't.

I think I've got a better handle on your position now and again, apologies, for the apparent slant of my previous response.

Skriker




Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
... Not lazy and I resent the implication. Most armies have options - Nidzilla (for example, a viable in pretty much all other scenarios and relatively fluffy build) doesn't really.
If MSS are so worthless because everyone can handle them, why do I see them on pretty much every model that can have them? You'd think that if there were so many counters they wouldn't get used. Man, there is some bad list building going on.

A piece of wargear doesn't have to be infallible to be used consistently. Last time I checked tournies aren't being overrun and dominated by necron MSS lists, so they can't be that overpowered or everyone would be playing them. Necron complaints in tournies are still because of flyer spam as the numbers involved can be hard to manage depending on your army. There are plenty of counters to MSS, but that doesn't make them completely useless in games. I don't know of a single unit, item or character that works 100% in every game, but people still include them in their armies all the time because they figure they'll work often enough to make them worth the points of including. If in a particular meta MSS stop having any real impact on battles then people will change that attitude about including them anyway.

Also just because plenty of options exist doesn't mean every army will have those options. Your 'nidzilla example is a prime example of a force that is built for specific reasons and its limited numbers can hamper it in some situations. Sorry that your optimized list is able to respond to and deal with EVERY situation fluidly and effectively, but that is the nature of such lists. I can't build a list made up 100% of khorne berserkers with no transports and then complain that my opponent has an army or parts in their army that make my foolish choice to only include short ranged foot sloggers a liability. Same with your big 'nids. If it is a problem for you, it is because you are not in a position to easily use numbers against a unit with MSS. That isn't because MSS are overpowered or undercosted, but it is because you are playing an army full of big brutes an have *chosen* to not include any units that can give you appreciable numbers in melees.

Skriker

Looks like we're done.