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 KonTheory wrote:

Might be a stupid question has I dont have any codexes infront of me...
but why would you not get the D6 attacks from the black mace? doesnt MSS say that you use their weapons and all their benefits?

It's been clarified in the Necron FAQ's:


Q: If mindshackle scarabs are used against a model whose weapon
gives them additional Attacks in close combat for any reason, are these
attacks added to the number of hits the model causes on their unit (for
example a Daemon Weapon)? (p81)
A: No.

Exactly what stops a Dlord with KWs from engaging on anything they want to MSS and kill?

guns.

That unit is majority toughness 4, non with EW. so a Vindicator removes a fair few, then Bolters can tidy up. The unit has the survivability of assault Marines against anything not AP3+.

If the DLord has a 2+, then mass Plasma till he goes down and stays down.

davethepak wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yeah, sorry. I must be a bad player. Sorry I suck so much, I'll try not to suck next time.

I was being serious. You sir are not.

But read the actual advice by the players who are trying to give actual sincere feedback, it will make you a better player.

Or tell you what, get the necron codex, proxy up a list, and learn them. Nothing helps you learn how to beat an army better than by playing them.

Now, if you want to continue to be silly and trite....well, then perhaps I can't dispute your self assessment.

I have own against MSScrons. That means nothing to the topic at hand. I know how to win against them but that doesn't change the fact (not opinion) that's its a ludicrously powerful piece of equipment. It's not fun to play against as when I do the fun thing with my 260 point Flyrants (charge them in to CC) I get MSSed and kill myself - sometimes before he even bothers swinging. On my turn I resolve MSS, challenge, kill him, he stands back up and resolves MSS on his turn killing me. Happens far too often to think about. So now I avoid CC like the plague and try and snipe out the one wound wonders and hope he fails the EL roll.

I'm not a bad player. It's just a stupidly powerful piece of equipment. On overlords? Annoying but fine. On essentially sergeants? Just... why?

I found that MSS is not that effective against groups. It's randomly determined who will be targeted by a unit in B2b contact with a lord, so a clever player will put chaff in contact with the MSS bearer, and have his more important soldiers take out whoever is accompanying the lord. That's happened to me a few times.

Lords are not sergeants. They are more like Commissars or Fireblades.

Now with monsters it's easy - you don't charge the MSS. A necron army that goes heavy MSS isn't going to have much else in it.
If you are going to charge one, send something expendable, or charge them with 2 monsters. Only 1 can be MSS'd

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Lords are not sergeants. They are more like Commissars or Fireblades.

They're essentially sergeants - they act as upgrade characters in the squad you attach them to and they cannot leave the squad. Yes, you have to pay for them.

rigeld2 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Lords are not sergeants. They are more like Commissars or Fireblades.

They're essentially sergeants - they act as upgrade characters in the squad you attach them to and they cannot leave the squad. Yes, you have to pay for them.

Like fireblades and commies there is a limited number of them and they provide abilities and items to the squad, and they have to be joined from a unit from a special "free" FO slot.

Every marine squad can have a sergeant. Only 1-10 squads of warriors, lychguards, deathmarks or immortals can have a lord, and that's only if you have 1-2 overlords in your army.
They are also much more expensive points wise than a sergeant - a lord with MSS is 50 points, and that's without the scythe.

 happygolucky wrote:
I play mainly CSM (and Orks) and the majority of my Codex's is CC orientated, therefore is doesn't just counter one unit in my codex, it counters the majortiy of units in my codex is why I get worked up about it, to know I am forced to resort to the usual shooty options I usually play in order to compete against his army loadout when I like experimenting with ideas puts my enjoyment down for 40k.

Anyway we found out on the weekend that the OP did not really need MSS, mainly because he fought our 'Nid player and he passed his MSS tests, but his MC were still killed off through the Warscythe of the Lords (and he got slay the warlord from that method as well).

Sorry mate, but I've got 4 full CSM armies and each of them has more than enough shooting to deal with a single necron HQ with MSS. I understand your experimental issues, but that is the nature of the beast. If you play an army that is 99.9% melee focused, you can't then gripe if you opponent has something like MSS that makes it difficult for your melee combat characters to assault them. It isn't your opponent's fault. It is YOUR fault for building the army you did. If you don't want to play that match up it is up to you to play something else, but don't complain about your opponent just because they won't change their army at the last minute to accomodate you. I play crazy builds all the time and more often it leads to some seriously lopsided games not in my favor. That is how it goes with those kinds of lists. Don't ever want that problem? Then only play TAC lists that cover all of your bases for you in every game. If you don't want to play TAC lists then just take your lumps and deal. Besides MSS isn't an instant counter. There are dice rolls involved. I might feel bad for you if having MSS meant instant hits on you if you charged the necron with them, but it doesn't.

To the last quote paragraph I say, "So what?" By your logic I don't need to give my SM character an iron halo because in one game I played at the game day I made all my armor saving throws and never faced anything with an AP of 3. That is just silly. Contingencies are there because you can't be certain that everything will always go your way. In the next game when my oppoent's force is full of force swords that Iron Halo will be pretty darn useful to have same with the MSS when the dice fail to produce for the necron lord with his warscythe.

Skriker

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Lords are not sergeants. They are more like Commissars or Fireblades.

They're essentially sergeants - they act as upgrade characters in the squad you attach them to and they cannot leave the squad. Yes, you have to pay for them.

Like fireblades and commies there is a limited number of them and they provide abilities and items to the squad, and they have to be joined from a unit from a special "free" FO slot.

Every marine squad can have a sergeant. Only 1-10 squads of warriors, lychguards, deathmarks or immortals can have a lord, and that's only if you have 1-2 overlords in your army.
They are also much more expensive points wise than a sergeant - a lord with MSS is 50 points, and that's without the scythe.

The important part is that they lead squads, can't leave squads, and those squads don't have any other unit leader type.

They're sergeants like Wolf Guard are sergeants. Comissars and Fireblades are independent characters who happen to be best off in a squad. Wolf Guard and Royal Courts are only effective when acting as a sergeant or acting as a death star.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Lords are not sergeants. They are more like Commissars or Fireblades.

They're essentially sergeants - they act as upgrade characters in the squad you attach them to and they cannot leave the squad. Yes, you have to pay for them.

Like fireblades and commies there is a limited number of them and they provide abilities and items to the squad, and they have to be joined from a unit from a special "free" FO slot.

Every marine squad can have a sergeant. Only 1-10 squads of warriors, lychguards, deathmarks or immortals can have a lord, and that's only if you have 1-2 overlords in your army.
They are also much more expensive points wise than a sergeant - a lord with MSS is 50 points, and that's without the scythe.

The important part is that they lead squads, can't leave squads, and those squads don't have any other unit leader type.

They're sergeants like Wolf Guard are sergeants. Comissars and Fireblades are independent characters who happen to be best off in a squad. Wolf Guard and Royal Courts are only effective when acting as a sergeant or acting as a death star.

Fair enough. Wolf Guard is a better comparison anyway. Except you can take more wolf guard than you can take lords.

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm not a bad player. It's just a stupidly powerful piece of equipment. On overlords? Annoying but fine. On essentially sergeants? Just... why?

Simply put: it isn't that MSS are too powerful. It is that flying uber killy melee monsters have made players lazy. They want to just fly in, kill something and fly out. Armies that do not rely on this tactic don't seem to have many problems dealing with MSS, nor do they complain about how over powered they are either.

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm not a bad player. It's just a stupidly powerful piece of equipment. On overlords? Annoying but fine. On essentially sergeants? Just... why?

Simply put: it isn't that MSS are too powerful. It is that flying uber killy melee monsters have made players lazy. They want to just fly in, kill something and fly out. Armies that do not rely on this tactic don't seem to have many problems dealing with MSS, nor do they complain about how over powered they are either.

... Not lazy and I resent the implication. Most armies have options - Nidzilla (for example, a viable in pretty much all other scenarios and relatively fluffy build) doesn't really.
If MSS are so worthless because everyone can handle them, why do I see them on pretty much every model that can have them? You'd think that if there were so many counters they wouldn't get used. Man, there is some bad list building going on.

 Skriker wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm not a bad player. It's just a stupidly powerful piece of equipment. On overlords? Annoying but fine. On essentially sergeants? Just... why?

Simply put: it isn't that MSS are too powerful. It is that flying uber killy melee monsters have made players lazy. They want to just fly in, kill something and fly out. Armies that do not rely on this tactic don't seem to have many problems dealing with MSS, nor do they complain about how over powered they are either.

Skriker

I would think that sitting back and shooting is more lazy then trying to get a relatively fragile character across the board.

 KommissarKiln wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Exactly, Skriker. What's the point of playing if you want to run the same list the same way every time? Accept that you'll come across counters to ONE of your trump cards once in a while. Then you can actually appreciate a true challenge and try to adapt. Then you feel even better when you do overcome such a a list.

Its not the fact that a counter can trump a list (this was an experiment and I just wanted to throw stuff out to gain experience what they do particularly well and what they don't do so well in) I don't mind losing, as I have said multiple times.

However this is not a counter to one list nor one unit.

I play mainly CSM (and Orks) and the majority of my Codex's is CC orientated, therefore is doesn't just counter one unit in my codex, it counters the majortiy of units in my codex is why I get worked up about it, to know I am forced to resort to the usual shooty options I usually play in order to compete against his army loadout when I like experimenting with ideas puts my enjoyment down for 40k.

Anyway we found out on the weekend that the OP did not really need MSS, mainly because he fought our 'Nid player and he passed his MSS tests, but his MC were still killed off through the Warscythe of the Lords (and he got slay the warlord from that method as well).

Just goes to show that he doesn't really need it but just wanted it, to make sure my FDP should not do anything against him.

Anyho me and the OP have resolved the matter, and im just saying now that if he wants to make lists to curbstomp experimental lists, then its ok because after this episode I've quite frankly lost most of my enjoyment from 40k anyway (and the OP has known this for quite a while), im just here now to see nicely painted models on the board.

And so this case is now resolved closed between me and the OP.

First, I'll give you merit for your thoughts, people really ought to express that to each other more. None of us are 100% wrong or right here.

Have you tried driving a mob of 30+ Boyz or 30+ Gaunts brood into a MSS unit? Hordes will generally fare much better against MSS, since sheer weight of numbers will water down the potency of MSS and there'll be plenty of others to bring some hurt. That said, there are ways this will not work, including a number of Tesla shots from that nearby immortal squad, but in terms of simply the one with MSS and any squad he's attached to vs. the horde, you've much better chance of success.

When I played with my Orks at the start of 6th ed. I did try mobz of boyz, but the problem I had was that when they were 30 boyz I had to foot slog, and I was foot slogging into a gunline of gauss and tesla, so they boyz used to get whittled down very quickly before they could get into combat, so that 30 boyz suddenly become 15 or 12 meaning that whilst they would be effective in combat they would not be up to full strength with attacks. I shelved my Orks when people started advising me to shelve them as they suddenly became "nerfed" in 6th, so Im waiting on their new codex coming out, (and I wager that they will be the next big thing beating the supposed new Tyranid codex that people bet on being the next big codex )

 Skriker wrote:

Sorry mate, but I've got 4 full CSM armies and each of them has more than enough shooting to deal with a single necron HQ with MSS.

We are not talking about army's we are talking about lists, and I doubt you could set in all of your units from one of your armies in one list.

I understand your experimental issues, but that is the nature of the beast. If you play an army that is 99.9% melee focused, you can't then gripe if you opponent has something like MSS that makes it difficult for your melee combat characters to assault them. It isn't your opponent's fault. It is YOUR fault for building the army you did.

Maybe, but that's all part of the experimenting process, I want to find out what goes well with each other, I want to learn during a game how one unit that could cover another and vice versa, and I cant really learn how they can if there is one piece of unit that is extremely hard to get rid of the board, leading me to not really learn anything new, that I knew beforehand. Sure I can kill it but the real question is, could I kill it quick enough so that the I can give other units a chance?

If you don't want to play that match up it is up to you to play something else

This is why I told the OP I would change my list, to give something more suitable for him to give him more of a challenge, however the OP was forcing me to use that list against him as he wanted to learn as well why FDP were so bad, however knowing they were a big threat already he decided that he would use MSS anyway, which to me changed his motive of the game.

but don't complain about your opponent just because they won't change their army at the last minute to accommodate you.

I never did complain, firstly because I asked I would changed my list, the OP did not allow me to do so, I then asked him to remove the piece of Wargear for learning purposes, alas he did not (then decided to make this thread), I only replied to this thread because this thread felt like the OP just made it to slag me off tbh as if he was tugging the shirt of Dakka pointing to the big bad man with the FDP, so I came on and voiced my opinion, as I have said through this thread on Dakka I have nothing against Necrons, I do not think that Necrons are OP, hell in Facebook groups im the one usually defending Necrons from everyone screaming OP at them, my only problem ever was with MSS, because to me it is the ultimate straightforward counter to their weakness, which is their Int. that means that they are really good not only in shooting but in CC, and can get Slay the warlord outright.

I play crazy builds all the time and more often it leads to some seriously lopsided games not in my favor.

Fair do's more power to you, Ive only just started to try out new lists and here is why...

Don't ever want that problem? Then only play TAC lists that cover all of your bases for you in every game. If you don't want to play TAC lists then just take your lumps and deal.

... Guess what I usually play? the fact is im getting bored of 40k, because im just using the same things over and over again and so I wanted to spice thing up and still have a equal chance of winning. as Ive said again I was prepared to change the list so that it offered more of a challenge to my opponent, but alas he only wanted to play that list which I was not prepared to use against him.

Besides MSS isn't an instant counter. There are dice rolls involved. I might feel bad for you if having MSS meant instant hits on you if you charged the Necron with them, but it doesn't.

The fact is as I have learned time and time again from experience no matter what I throw at an Overlord or whatnot, every time I throw my hardest CC unit into an Overlord or regular lord with MSS, they always have taken most of the wounds themselves, ready to be violated by a warscythe.

To the last quote paragraph I say, "So what?" By your logic I don't need to give my SM character an iron halo because in one game I played at the game day I made all my armour saving throws and never faced anything with an AP of 3. That is just silly. Contingencies are there because you can't be certain that everything will always go your way. In the next game when my opponent's force is full of force swords that Iron Halo will be pretty darn useful to have same with the MSS when the dice fail to produce for the Necron lord with his warscythe.

The difference between a contingency and MSS is that stuff like Iron halo's are nifty little tools that are nice to have and do save you from getting totally beat up. MSS on the other hand is its not a contingency as it is relied upon by the Necron every time, it makes the Necron Lord/Overlord lazy as he's not putting up a fight just letting an undercosted piece of Wargear take his way. You know what the penalty is for when the Warscythe fails to hit? the other guy/female/xeno still lives for another turn, that should be suffice enough, it is not a contingency, its a mandatory piece of Wargear that is always relied upon, and you never should rely upon contingency's as they should be a nifty thing that could mean the difference for a units survivability nothing more.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 IHateNids wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

Anyhow me and the OP have resolved the matter, and im just saying now that if he wants to make lists to curbstomp experimental lists, then its ok because after this episode I've quite frankly lost most of my enjoyment from 40k anyway (and the OP has known this for quite a while), im just here now to see nicely painted models on the board.

This is a response to the emphasised section. While it may be case closed, I would like to make it known that I have always ran lists with Lords up the front of my units with WS/SW/MSS/RO, as Happy knows.
Since the dex dropped in 5th Edition.
And he still bitches that I Tailor my lists.

I don't "bitch" about you tailoring your lists, I have only occasionally said this when you keep proxying stuff you have not told me about before, on the day of the game when you do not have a written list prepared.

In all honesty I don't give anymore fecks if you even used croissant crons, I don't really care about 40k anymore, after this episode it has really sucked my enjoyment out of 40k.

I guess my frustration is really that you cant even take criticism for your codex, you can quite happily shout on about how other army's are "too good" (prime case being the Apoc game we had when we and our Tau player teamed up against IG and GK, where I charged my DP into a unit of GK paladins, got confused about which grenades they had and then got slaughtered, then you started ranting on about how GK were "too good for their points" in your words IIRC, and how GK were the "auto-win button against daemons", hell I even just said flat out to you that in the GK players defence you had MSS, to which you then had a go at me saying how the codex writes are not at fault, which went OT real fast and left me confused as it had nothing to do with that game at all) but as soon as someone else has the smallest criticism such as MSS you go on and on how your Wargear is "fair for Necrons" and spout out threads like these, just to make the other player feel bad about their opinions (and don't say it doesn't because this thread really has just sucked a lot of enjoyment out of 40k for me as it basically told me that I cannot have my own opinion on stuff in army's, however it is noted that very, very recently you have started admitting that certain stuff was undercosted for your codex).

I will freely admit now, that I used to get worked up on how people used to go on and on about Helldrakes (considering that the rest of my codex is mediocre imo- oh wait sorry I just remembered that was not allowed my opinion about stuff in 40k!) but now I really just don't care what people say about that unit and just post this pic as my response:



I suggest whenever you see someone yell that your whole army is OP then you should do the same, but not when its just one piece of Wargear (unless of course its a highly unused piece of Wargear such as the tacheyon, or whatever it is arrow), as I have said dozens of time I do not find Necrons OP, but obviously im the big bad man with the Daemons Netlist (your words exact) which I fail to see as that list requires Grimore and Helldrakes, both of which did not appear in my list.

So yeah I care very little about 40k atm, considering on how my opinion is supposedly "wrong" by your standards.

Dude, you are digging yourself a bigger hole here, and so much in that post is wrong, Im not even going to go into it, the rest of the thread will do that.

 IHateNids wrote:
Dude, you are digging yourself a bigger hole here, and so much in that post is wrong, Im not even going to go into it, the rest of the thread will do that.

Not really, you just want to slag me off on this thread as you don't want me to have my own opinion on army's and to think that 40k is perfectly balanced when it is not.

You just made this thread to listen to the posters who sympathise you, and to make me feel bad about my opinion.

 happygolucky wrote:
You just made this thread to listen to the posters who sympathise you, and to make me feel bad about my opinion.

This.

 happygolucky wrote:
This is why I told the OP I would change my list, to give something more suitable for him to give him more of a challenge, however the OP was forcing me to use that list against him as he wanted to learn as well why FDP were so bad, however knowing they were a big threat already he decided that he would use MSS anyway, which to me changed his motive of the game.

I never did complain, firstly because I asked I would changed my list, the OP did not allow me to do so, I then asked him to remove the piece of Wargear for learning purposes, alas he did not (then decided to make this thread), I only replied to this thread because this thread felt like the OP just made it to slag me off tbh as if he was tugging the shirt of Dakka pointing to the big bad man with the FDP, so I came on and voiced my opinion, as I have said through this thread on Dakka I have nothing against Necrons, I do not think that Necrons are OP, hell in Facebook groups im the one usually defending Necrons from everyone screaming OP at them, my only problem ever was with MSS, because to me it is the ultimate straightforward counter to their weakness, which is their Int. that means that they are really good not only in shooting but in CC, and can get Slay the warlord outright.

My apologies on this one. I definitely missed the direct of the ire here. Not your fault and you did try to step back and play something else. Mea culpa. My own previous dislike with necrons was their ability to stand back up again. Just always saw that as a really annoying ability. Push in, crush an important unit to take an objective and then have half the unit stand back up again. It bugged me until I realized that units with feel no pain do pretty much the same thing, they just don't "die" first so it stopped bugging me so much.

... Guess what I usually play? the fact is im getting bored of 40k, because im just using the same things over and over again and so I wanted to spice thing up and still have a equal chance of winning. as Ive said again I was prepared to change the list so that it offered more of a challenge to my opponent, but alas he only wanted to play that list which I was not prepared to use against him.

If this is your first forays into experimentals, then definitely get into the mode of knowing that sometimes your experiment just isn't going to work against an opponent. This is just how it is. I do my testing of lists at home or specifically invite a friend over to test something while making it clear before they show up that I would like them to play a specific kind of army. All in all, though, playing alternate lists is fun and different. Just have to take the good with the bad. There is no guarantee of still having an equal chance of winning with your focused list as you discovered. I would recommend, though, that instead of bailing on the list because of the presence of specific wargear of an opponent's accept the challange and see how far you can succeed with what you clearly felt was an unfair advantage against your force. Often that is one of the most satisfying aspects of playing those kinds of lists: You are effectively at a disadvantage, but pull up a good showing for yourself and sometimes even pull out wins which are all the better. THIS will ultimately give you a lot of satisfaction in the game as it takes the hardcore focus off of winning all the time and puts it more into inventive play and approaches on the table top. In this edition melee focused armies are just going to be at an overall disadvantage no matter the opponent.

The difference between a contingency and MSS is that stuff like Iron halo's are nifty little tools that are nice to have and do save you from getting totally beat up. MSS on the other hand is its not a contingency as it is relied upon by the Necron every time, it makes the Necron Lord/Overlord lazy as he's not putting up a fight just letting an undercosted piece of Wargear take his way. You know what the penalty is for when the Warscythe fails to hit? the other guy/female/xeno still lives for another turn, that should be suffice enough, it is not a contingency, its a mandatory piece of Wargear that is always relied upon, and you never should rely upon contingency's as they should be a nifty thing that could mean the difference for a units survivability nothing more.

As a CSM player how would you take it if everyone started telling you that you never should rely on multiple flying daemon princes and should only ever use one or none in every game? Would you embrace their expectations and change your army from that point on? Probably not. Same thing with people telling Tau players they can't have more than one riptide. If it is in the codex and they are not breaking any rules by using it, you can't expect an opponent to not use the things just because you don't think they shouldn't be relied on. I don't usually use multiple DPs, but would still tell people to mind to their own lists and stop telling me how to run mine just the same. No one bats an eye at Iron Halos because they are purely defensive. All they do is keep your character from getting killed as easily. The MSS are defensive, but in an offensive way. That just irriates the heck out of people.

I will agree that if everyone always takes MSS then yes they are being lazy too. Any kind of spamming breeds laziness. If I use enough of "X" I won't have to think about the game as much, so they don't.

I think I've got a better handle on your position now and again, apologies, for the apparent slant of my previous response.

Skriker




Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
... Not lazy and I resent the implication. Most armies have options - Nidzilla (for example, a viable in pretty much all other scenarios and relatively fluffy build) doesn't really.
If MSS are so worthless because everyone can handle them, why do I see them on pretty much every model that can have them? You'd think that if there were so many counters they wouldn't get used. Man, there is some bad list building going on.

A piece of wargear doesn't have to be infallible to be used consistently. Last time I checked tournies aren't being overrun and dominated by necron MSS lists, so they can't be that overpowered or everyone would be playing them. Necron complaints in tournies are still because of flyer spam as the numbers involved can be hard to manage depending on your army. There are plenty of counters to MSS, but that doesn't make them completely useless in games. I don't know of a single unit, item or character that works 100% in every game, but people still include them in their armies all the time because they figure they'll work often enough to make them worth the points of including. If in a particular meta MSS stop having any real impact on battles then people will change that attitude about including them anyway.

Also just because plenty of options exist doesn't mean every army will have those options. Your 'nidzilla example is a prime example of a force that is built for specific reasons and its limited numbers can hamper it in some situations. Sorry that your optimized list is able to respond to and deal with EVERY situation fluidly and effectively, but that is the nature of such lists. I can't build a list made up 100% of khorne berserkers with no transports and then complain that my opponent has an army or parts in their army that make my foolish choice to only include short ranged foot sloggers a liability. Same with your big 'nids. If it is a problem for you, it is because you are not in a position to easily use numbers against a unit with MSS. That isn't because MSS are overpowered or undercosted, but it is because you are playing an army full of big brutes an have *chosen* to not include any units that can give you appreciable numbers in melees.

Skriker

Looks like we're done.