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What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/05 17:27:17


Post by: ahzek


Please note this isnt a GW bashing thread (yeah i know), nor is it directly a pricing thread

We all know it costs more to buy models firectly from Games workshop than from independents, but I was wondering what the guys in the stores can do to compete with those Independent traders.

Im sure price is a huge deciding factor for a lot of people, but what about convenience, or customer service? Or maybe gaming space, specialist knowledge (?)

Iv been thinking this because my local GW closed down recently because it wasnt making enough profit (Newport, Wales)

Like I say this isnt a bashing thread, Id ike to see intelligent comments :p


What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/05 17:43:11


Post by: Koppo


While there is quite a bit the individual stores could do, they are not, in fact, individual stores. They are part of a chain where decisions about everything (decor, opening hours, layout, staffing levels, targets etc.) are made by the ever shadowy "higher ups". There is, therefore very little they can do because they have so little they are allowed to do.

If it were left up to the store managers (they were handed a budget, given a sales target and branding a sales area and told "You sort it out") I'd think:

Support local clubs/host a local club
Give store credit for prizes etc for events (both club and store run)
Run their own social media (ok, so they already do this)
layout the shop to accommodate the above options (e.g. more table space for a hosted club)
Alter opening hours to suit local trade.
Have a shop location to suit local trade.


What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/05 18:14:58


Post by: ahzek


Its my understanding the guys are empowered to run the store they see fit (likely with some natural direction from above)


What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/05 18:26:12


Post by: chaos0xomega


Nothing. It's simple economics, as a player of GW games, you need X amount of product to play (where x is a function of the army you're playing and the points level, etc.). You have limited resource Y (aka, money) to purchase this product. Purchasing product X from GW costs you Z (retail value of the product), whereas purchasing product X from a certain independent retailer might only cost you .8Z. Intelligent money management says to purchase from the independent retailer, because doing so will leave you with .2Y after you have purchased X, meaning you will still have money available, meaning more money for additional product, savings, a soda and pizza, some hookers, etc.

Purchasing from GW provides you with no practical benefit. Once assembled and painted, the source of my independently purchased GW product is indistinguishable from your GW purchased product. You do not receive an advantage in gameplay, experience, or quality. You don't really receive any additional satistfaction either, as we both purchased *literally* the same exact thing, but I paid 20% less than you did. If anything, you should feel less satisfied as a result.

As for being able to run it as you see fit, yes, so long as you're selling the product they tell you to sell at the rate they tell you to sell for the price they tell you to sell it at using the methodology they train you to use in order to sell it. So, there really isn't that much leeway there, other than what events you might or might not host.


What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/05 18:36:30


Post by: Techboss


I agree with the "they can do nothing to compete" sentiment. GW stores sell a very specific product that caters to a very small percent of the population at a very high price. While they are good at getting people into the hobby initially, the can't currently compete on a price scale with other forms of entertainment nor can the retain veterans due to increase in prices and some movement on not supporting in-store gaming.


What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/05 18:41:33


Post by: Desubot


They could move everything to direct order so that only GW stores had stock on hand.

Really there isnt much they can do asides from starting leagues, and painting competitions.

Even me local store was discouraged from starting a rewards program of a simple white dwarf.


What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/05 18:55:57


Post by: TheCustomLime


Offer rewards programs, support tournaments, offer occasional discounts, host gaming nights, have awesome boards to play on, have snacks available and maybe some free WiFi.


What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/05 19:31:49


Post by: Lorizael


Why do they need to compete? On a company level it doesn't really matter where a customer buys GW product as long as they're buying GW product!

There's more incentive to compete for individual stores/managers because of their targets etc, but still there should be room for both GW and independants and a GW manager shouldn't have an issue if he/she is doing the right things.
A GW store's primary reason for being is to recruit new people into the hobby and to be a high street presence. Once a new player has got into the hobby, attended sessions in store and has become an 'independant hobbyist' then it shouldn't be an issue if they go elsewhere for their product. I'm sure GW would prefer customers to visit their stores every now and then purely because they have trained staff who are capable of making sales, rather than a lot of the indiferant indie-store staff out there. But it isn't an 'issue' if they don't.

To a degree GW stores must be competing just fine- there are stores that have been running for 20+ years. They must still be in profit otherwise they'd be shut. I've never encountered an independant that has lasted more than 5 years. (not saying that there aren't any, I just don't know of any).

GW do compete when it comes to people new to the hobby- they provide time, space and (mostly) experienced staff to teach people what the hobby is and how to paint and game.
People will show loyalty to a convenient store with a friendly manager who has the time to chat and help out an individual's hobby.
One of the local manager's told me he gets a few guys in a week who have abandoned online discounters because they have to wait so long for stuff and because they offer them nothing beyond a price discount. Some people find conversation, inspiration, convenience & customer service more important than a discount...

I'll have to pick at a few of Koppo's points. I'm friendly socially with several of my local GW managers and they say they have a fair amount of control as long as they stick within a basic set of guidelines.
So they can alter trading hours, their layout, set their own targets. I'm told they can pretty much do as they like as long as it can be justified by improved figures. And of course stick to some basic restraints such as having demo tables for the 3 games.
And they are actively encouraged to be involved/support local clubs. My closest GW carries flyers for 2 local GCN clubs and the manager actively promotes them.

Clubs are a benefit to a GW store. So say a store recruits 30 new customers a month. And these customers attend beginner sessions, learn how to play and then end up at the gaming/vets night. If no one ever leaves to play at a gaming club then the store soon becomes oversubscribed- there isn't the facilities or space to accomodate a constant stream of new recruits as well as every other hobbyist in the area.


Wow. Wall of text!


What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/05 19:41:37


Post by: Howard A Treesong


I thought the Skullz offer was quite good but I guess that's too much like giving stuff away free for them to do now.


What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/05 20:05:23


Post by: chaos0xomega


 Lorizael wrote:
Why do they need to compete? On a company level it doesn't really matter where a customer buys GW product as long as they're buying GW product!



Not necessarily true, buying direct from GW means GW pockets a much larger profit than if you were to buy from an independent retailer, the downside of this is that GW then operates with a higher overhead cost as they then have to support x many brick and mortar stores.

To a degree GW stores must be competing just fine- there are stores that have been running for 20+ years. They must still be in profit otherwise they'd be shut. I've never encountered an independant that has lasted more than 5 years. (not saying that there aren't any, I just don't know of any).


Theres far more stores that haven't lasted even 10. GW has closed many stores since I first started the hobby 10 or so years ago.

People will show loyalty to a convenient store with a friendly manager who has the time to chat and help out an individual's hobby.


Until they realize they're being ripped off.

One of the local manager's told me he gets a few guys in a week who have abandoned online discounters because they have to wait so long for stuff and because they offer them nothing beyond a price discount. Some people find conversation, inspiration, convenience & customer service more important than a discount...


I buy most of my product online, I still get all of that at my local non-GW store.



What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/05 20:09:33


Post by: Aerethan


ahzek wrote:
Please note this isnt a GW bashing thread (yeah i know), nor is it directly a pricing thread

We all know it costs more to buy models firectly from Games workshop than from independents, but I was wondering what the guys in the stores can do to compete with those Independent traders.

Im sure price is a huge deciding factor for a lot of people, but what about convenience, or customer service? Or maybe gaming space, specialist knowledge (?)

Iv been thinking this because my local GW closed down recently because it wasnt making enough profit (Newport, Wales)

Like I say this isnt a bashing thread, Id ike to see intelligent comments :p


GW's requirements for stores are unrealistic. They must constantly be increasing their sales or the managers severely risk being fired. They are not allowed to discount AT ALL. They can't offer prize support for any events that aren't already approved from the uppers(usually they only offer cheap prizes at store openings and birthdays, and it's not usually actual product unless it was returned stock that is open).

So if your store is in town X, GW requires lets say 200k the first year. The second year they want a 20% increase, and every year after that.

So what happens when you are realistically capped in your area? There aren't any million dollar stores anymore save perhaps the last Bunker. A 1 man store simply can't do that kind of business.
Also, every store is a 1 man store, meaning it's closed 2 days a week, plus extra days if they are at training or out sick or on vacation(most areas do not have covering managers). So that eats into sales as well.

GW's retail strategies are not sustainable beyond a few years of a store opening. Eventually you will hit a certain market saturation where old players already have most of what they want, and new players become fewer and farther between.

Now try to do all that while Gary's Comics 1 town over sells everything at 10% off every day, and regularly has 20% off sales, on top of running tournaments with prize support and allowing 3rd party models, proxies, etc?

GW restricts their stores from being competitive, let alone successful.


What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/05 20:16:07


Post by: The Shadow


What do GW stores need to do to compete?

Exist.

Yes, there are many other independent retailers, and other means of buying models - such as eBay - which are far cheaper than GW, and many of us veterans utilise them frequently. BUT GW DOES NOT CARE.

The purpose of GW stores is to bring people into the hobby and then get the money of new players, and ones who have yet to discover new ways of buying models. For the vast majority of the community members, GW stores, and the website, are the only way to get models. Think back to when you started the hobby. Did you start buying of independent retailers/eBay straight away? Almost definetly, the answer is no. You went to a GW.

Even some people who are "veterans" still buy from GW, since they're "blind" to other methods. Another question. Before you joined Dakka, or any other similar online wargaming forum, how aware were you of other ways of buying GW models? Probably not very. You might have clued on to eBay, but chances are you'll never have heard of The Warstore or Wayland Games or anything like that.

We people, here, who are very clued up about what's going on in the hobby, are a very small minority of the community. As long as it stays that way, GW stores will keep making profit.


What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/05 20:17:09


Post by: sing your life


I'm thinking GW needs to start selling online-only miniatures, there are so many classics that only available from their website.


What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/05 20:23:30


Post by: chaos0xomega


 The Shadow wrote:
What do GW stores need to do to compete?

Exist.

Yes, there are many other independent retailers, and other means of buying models - such as eBay - which are far cheaper than GW, and many of us veterans utilise them frequently. BUT GW DOES NOT CARE.

The purpose of GW stores is to bring people into the hobby and then get the money of new players, and ones who have yet to discover new ways of buying models. For the vast majority of the community members, GW stores, and the website, are the only way to get models. Think back to when you started the hobby. Did you start buying of independent retailers/eBay straight away? Almost definetly, the answer is no. You went to a GW.

Even some people who are "veterans" still buy from GW, since they're "blind" to other methods. Another question. Before you joined Dakka, or any other similar online wargaming forum, how aware were you of other ways of buying GW models? Probably not very. You might have clued on to eBay, but chances are you'll never have heard of The Warstore or Wayland Games or anything like that.

We people, here, who are very clued up about what's going on in the hobby, are a very small minority of the community. As long as it stays that way, GW stores will keep making profit.


Uhh, things must be really different in the UK from the US then, because I didn't see, let alone step foot in, a GW store until 3 or 4 years after I first started playing (and I did, in fact, make my first purchases online), nor did most of the people I game with... in fact, I know a few fellow 40k/Fantasy players that have never once seen or set foot in a GW Hobby Center or Battle Bunker.


What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/05 20:31:08


Post by: Andrew1975


They could do a lot of things

Regular weekly gaming events with terrain and tables provided. In order to participate you have to earn a ticket by spending x dollars tracked on a loyalty card. So lets say you spend $50 that week, or whatever, you get a ticket to participate in some free games. The winner of the weekly tournament gets a limited edition, in store only miniature.

MVC. Most valued customer, basically the customer that spends the most during a period gets a limited edition mini plus a 20% discount on their next purchase.

Look at what FLGS do to bring in customers, steal it and add things that only GW could do. GW needs to figure out what they can offer that other stores can't. Right now it isn't much.

The fact is that GW care very little about their stores. I get the idea behind them, but, its poorly executed and in the end costs all of their customers quite a bit of money. I personally have never been to one, as they are really not things in the US....well not where I've lived anyway.


What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/05 20:35:44


Post by: chaos0xomega


Wheres the incentive? I already get 20% discounts at my local non-GW store or online, and I don't have to spend a ton of money on retail-priced product to get it, I have free gaming provided to me at my FLGS regardless of whether or not I purchase something in store that week, if I win a local tournament I get store credit to spend on whatever I please when I choose to do so rather than having a useless limited ed. mini forced on me,


What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/05 20:42:01


Post by: Lorizael


chaos0xomega wrote:
 Lorizael wrote:
Why do they need to compete? On a company level it doesn't really matter where a customer buys GW product as long as they're buying GW product!



Not necessarily true, buying direct from GW means GW pockets a much larger profit than if you were to buy from an independent retailer, the downside of this is that GW then operates with a higher overhead cost as they then have to support x many brick and mortar stores.

To a degree GW stores must be competing just fine- there are stores that have been running for 20+ years. They must still be in profit otherwise they'd be shut. I've never encountered an independant that has lasted more than 5 years. (not saying that there aren't any, I just don't know of any).


Theres far more stores that haven't lasted even 10. GW has closed many stores since I first started the hobby 10 or so years ago.

People will show loyalty to a convenient store with a friendly manager who has the time to chat and help out an individual's hobby.


Until they realize they're being ripped off.

One of the local manager's told me he gets a few guys in a week who have abandoned online discounters because they have to wait so long for stuff and because they offer them nothing beyond a price discount. Some people find conversation, inspiration, convenience & customer service more important than a discount...


I buy most of my product online, I still get all of that at my local non-GW store.



chaos0xomega wrote:
 The Shadow wrote:
What do GW stores need to do to compete?

Uhh, things must be really different in the UK from the US then, because I didn't see, let alone step foot in, a GW store until 3 or 4 years after I first started playing (and I did, in fact, make my first purchases online), nor did most of the people I game with... in fact, I know a few fellow 40k/Fantasy players that have never once seen or set foot in a GW Hobby Center or Battle Bunker.


I think difference between UK and USA is a big deal. UK stores very rarely close. They often relocate, but closure isn't frequent. Even the Newport store (as mentioned previously in thread) is an exception as generally Newport as a shopping area is dying on it's arse and lots of stores are pulling out.
And I would expect the majority of GW collectors would have started in a GW store. The UK has double the amount of stores than in the USA and is a fraction of the size; saturation means people are exposed the stores first.

The differences in profit between trade/retail/mail order are hard to guage. Maybe the cost in profits through selling through an indie is the same as the cost of overheads for running a store? Hard to know.

The 'ripped off' comment means little. GW sells at their set price. That is the price of the product. Just because a trade account chooses to sell at a lower price doesn't mean you're being ripped off at a GW. It's subjective- products are worth what an individual perceives them to be worth. It's fine that you buy online, but there are still plenty who buy at GW stores. I and most of my friends do, and we're perfectly aware of Wayland, Dark Sphere, GFG etc. We buy at GW because of what it offers us beyond a discount.


What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/05 20:44:43


Post by: Grimtuff


 sing your life wrote:
I'm thinking GW needs to start selling online-only miniatures, there are so many classics that only available from their website.


On one hand, why? GW a few years back switched to a "top 3000 lines only" (IIRC) method for good reason. Too much dead stock gathering dust. Dead stock takes up space in warehouses, dead stock eats your profits. GW cannot discount it to get rid of it, they cannot decide on a store level to discontinue it (both of these things I can do in my job), they are stuck with it until they pay someone from head office to come and pick it up.

OTOH.

From what I saw personally, us wargamers are an instant gratification bunch, and if it's not on the shelf we'll take our business elsewhere. I saw many people walk off without buying anything for a couple of years after GW implemented this policy.

You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.


What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/05 20:45:12


Post by: Azreal13


They have one massive advantage in the UK- ubiquity.

I live in the third largest town in the county, yet there is no other wargaming retailer than GW. Historically the town has had an independent FLGS which did very well (I knew the owner socially and he had a very good lifestyle supported by its success) but GW opened as soon as he decided to have a change in career and close the shop, and nobody else has been in a position to do anything since.

I'm sure, given the number of UK stores, that many GW branches' only requirement to be successful is "be open."

As someone with a background in retail sales, and who has run locations where major competitors were literally across the street (and that's a pedestrianised street, so not even traffic to contend with!) I'm familiar with finding an edge or an angle to get people's custom, but honestly, if I was a GW manager with a competently run Indy stockist nearby, I don't see how I would do that. At least, not without employing underhand supply of stock manipulation from on high, but I'm sure GW have never done that.....


What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/05 21:10:26


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


I'll agree that for large chunks of the UK being open is all they need to do

however where there is competition one possible option would be to offer direct only either in store or as a fast click and collect


What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/05 21:19:13


Post by: Barzam


I think actually having their stores be open and a live would be a start. There was at one point several of them in my immediate area, but they all closed down shortly after opening. I didn't even know there were any here to begin with until at least a year after they'd closed down.


What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/05 21:30:02


Post by: ahzek


 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I'll agree that for large chunks of the UK being open is all they need to do

however where there is competition one possible option would be to offer direct only either in store or as a fast click and collect



They do, all stores have an ordering point that can get everything from the website, don't think forgeworld


What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/05 21:46:18


Post by: -Loki-


ahzek wrote:
Its my understanding the guys are empowered to run the store they see fit (likely with some natural direction from above)


You are wrong. The most GW store managers get to do themselves is run events and maybe make up minor policies like paying to use a store table. Oh, and music is left up to their questionable taste.

The vast majority of what actually affects people when they go into the store is controlled by GW itself.


What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/05 22:08:09


Post by: Saldiven


 The Shadow wrote:

. Think back to when you started the hobby. Did you start buying of independent retailers/eBay straight away? Almost definetly, the answer is no. You went to a GW.


Actually, if you're in the USA, it is almost certain that your initial GW experience was not in a GW store.

I've been in a GW store exactly once in my life. That was when I was visiting my FLGS and the owner found out his GW delivery was shorted a new army book. He asked one of his employees to drive over to the GW store to pick on up, and I rode along. I was in the store probably about 30 seconds. My first experience, and 99.999% of my subsequent experiences, with GW have been through an independent retailer.


What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/05 22:19:07


Post by: ahzek


 -Loki- wrote:
ahzek wrote:
Its my understanding the guys are empowered to run the store they see fit (likely with some natural direction from above)


You are wrong. The most GW store managers get to do themselves is run events and maybe make up minor policies like paying to use a store table. Oh, and music is left up to their questionable taste.

The vast majority of what actually affects people when they go into the store is controlled by GW itself.


They can also determine theirs opening times and the like (obviously still within the 40 hours and opening five days a week, but the freedom is there)


What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/05 22:27:15


Post by: Andrew1975


chaos0xomega wrote:
Wheres the incentive? I already get 20% discounts at my local non-GW store or online, and I don't have to spend a ton of money on retail-priced product to get it, I have free gaming provided to me at my FLGS regardless of whether or not I purchase something in store that week, if I win a local tournament I get store credit to spend on whatever I please when I choose to do so rather than having a useless limited ed. mini forced on me,


Right, this is my point, they really have to figure out something they can do that is exclusive or better than what the FLGS can offer. We all know people that go to conventions just for the limited edition swag.

I think maybe the business model is just very different here in the states. I don't think GW stores do as well here because there is just too much independent competition. It sounds like in other places all they have is GW stores...which kind of begs the question, why don't more independents open in those markets.

I think the whole GW store thing is a giant waste of revenue that could be accomplished in other, better ways.


What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/05 22:45:58


Post by: Chute82


They have to be doing something right since I see stores opening here in the United States in the White Dwarf mag. Not sure what it is but some investor has put his money on the line looking for a return. Never been to a GW store and don't have one near me. So I really don't know what they have to offer besides models at retail cost


What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/05 22:46:25


Post by: Aerethan


The only thing that keeps me buying anything at my local GW is the manager, and even then it's only purchases under $50. more than that and the online discount beats out the convenience and my like the of manager.

As it is, even though NONE of his customers complain, the sales for that store are down and he'll likely be gone in 6 months, and basically every regular customer I know agrees that once he's gone we will all be leaving the store and sticking to discount sellers or the local independent.

And no, my first intro to GW games was not in a GW store. It was in a comic shop. GW didn't even have a store in my area until 4 years ago.


What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/05 22:54:40


Post by: LordOfSmurfs


  • Move to premises with good transport links and parking.

  • Proper Game Tables, make it a place where people want to play, spend time and money.

  • Online system with user accounts to reserve tables in advance.

  • Lower Prices.

  • Stop employees jumping down customers throats as soon as they enter the door.


  • From what I've heard GW stores operate at a Loss, it's basically a showroom to get people into the hobby and hooked on GW products.

    Instead they should turn GW stores into dedicated GW product gaming areas, with selling goods as more of a sideline. Basically turn the stores into mini warhammer worlds with events, tournaments, competitions etc.

    What better way to sell a product than to see other people playing and enjoying it, instead of just seeing a store with 1 guy in waiting for customers and all they can do to show off the game is a demo board with some demo rules.


    Also i'd like to add i first got into the hobby about 15 years ago. Back then GW stores had people playing games and the walls were lined with blisters and you could pretty much buy every part of your army in store.

    I've only just got back into the hobby about 2 years ago after a 10 year break. When i stepped into a GW store recently it's totally changed, there is no atmosphere, No blisters on the wall, just a few core plastic army boxes, the guy in the shop said anything else needs to be ordered online. This was after he pretty much pounced on me and tried to sell me a necron battleforce (i was in there looking for ogres). As you can guess I've never been back :p.

    I'm instead quite happy with Mantic Games and their pathfinder tournies now, even if it does mean traveling :p.




    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 00:30:57


    Post by: Aerethan


    I can tell you right now, at least here in the US, stores that operate at a loss will have quick manager turnaround and if they don't profit they get closed.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 03:30:56


    Post by: Andrew1975


    They have to be doing something right since I see stores opening here in the United States in the White Dwarf mag. Not sure what it is but some investor has put his money on the line looking for a return. Never been to a GW store and don't have one near me. So I really don't know what they have to offer besides models at retail cost


    That is not private investor, that is GW, these things are not franchises, these are company stores. GW stores do not exist to run on a profit. They are always is high traffic areas and are basically very expensive billboards to capture people (kids) walking through the mall. This is GWs advertising and marketing model....and its pretty crappy. GW stores and their overhead is one of the reasons minis are so expensive.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 04:41:03


    Post by: mattyrm


    I'm suprised that GW can compete at all considering you always get a discount if you go elsewhere, I suppose younger people keep them alive with impulse buys, but for me, Ill happily wait a week if I can get 25% off.

    I have plenty of other hobbies to take care of while I wait!


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 04:57:45


    Post by: Peregrine


    The answer is no, it is not possible for GW stores to compete. It's like asking how to make water not be wet, or how to make 1+1=3. Imagine you have two stores:

    Store A:
    * Sells everything at 10% off full retail price.
    * Sells a wide range of non-GW products, including some combination of other miniatures games, RPGs, card games, board games, RC cars/planes, comics, etc.
    * Is open during regular business hours, seven days a week.
    * Has plenty of gaming space for all of the various games they sell, including semi-organized game nights and/or ongoing leagues.
    * Has no rules on using third-party components in your games, since they sell those as well.
    * Has useful staff with the freedom to give you useful help instead of just reciting company policy.

    Store B:
    * Sells everything at full retail price.
    * Only sells GW products.
    * Is only open for limited hours, only five days a week, and is randomly closed in the middle of the day so the one employee can have a lunch break.
    * Has limited gaming space, and only allows GW games.
    * Does not allow anything other than official GW products in the store.
    * Has useless staff that have to deal with strict company rules or risk being fired.


    So why would you ever go to store B, unless you don't know that store A exists?


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 05:37:05


    Post by: orkybenji


    Not all independents sell at less than retail. All three of the Independents near me sell at full retail. It is also easier to find 40k players in a GW than at an independent that serves multiple games and communities. The players often get diluted and it can be hard to organize.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 06:26:16


    Post by: Boblogik


    Chiming in, I made my first gw purchases in an independant retailer because they offered a rewards program of 20$ for every 100$ spent. The 3 independent retailers around me now sell at 5% off (15% if you're in a league for that game), 15% off unless you buy over 100$ then its 20% off, and the third sells at 20% off. We only just got a gw store up here. I've never stepped into it but I seriously doubt it will compete, especiall if it is anything like their normal bolt-hole stores that have 3 tables but one is for display only. All 3 of the independent retailers have a large gaming area (between 7-12 tables with lots of terrain each). I only stepped into a standard gw store for the first time last year, which is about 3 years into my 40k tenure. The manager there wasn't too bad about pushing for a sale and was very friendly but me and my friend weren't impressed with the store due to its lack of table space.

    More anecdotes regarding start-up in 40k. 2 of my friends started their 40k collections using ebay and both in their 3-4 years of playing have only ever bought 1-2 items new and those at 20% from their LGS.

    The only gw store worth going to is World of Battle, their north american headquarters located in Memphis, TN. That was a fantastic store. I just visited a friend down there and we played a game and hung out at the store. The playing area was amazing with really well done tables and plenty of more standard tables as well. They had over 16 tables to play on. One set of 2 was a giant cityscape. The staff were also very nice, loved talking about the hobby and while leaned towards product sales, they didn't do it in such a way to drive me off. They also ran events all the time, from tourneys to leagues to painting and modelling workshops.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 06:35:20


    Post by: Swoop


     The Shadow wrote:


    Did you start buying of independent retailers/eBay straight away? Almost definetly, the answer is no. You went to a GW.


    I was highly amused by this statement. When I started buying GW, the internet was unknown and there wasn't (as far as I am aware) a GW store on this continent. Independent retailers were the only option. Oh and the prices were comparable to any other product in the marketplace so there wasn't any concern for discounts. Obviously I am not the typical gamer though.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 07:02:20


    Post by: notprop


    The obvious answer is that GW store are not there to compete in price. They are there to form a brand and promote it and create ubiquity.

    If they compete it is on introductory and hobby elements that are less likely to be run by other outlets. I hear the GW introduction to games/painting are good enough.

    And let's not kid ourselves GW stores are not there just to sink the profits into, each will be run to profit. It's no accident that GWs turnover dwarfs that of its nearest wargaming rival. The store attract lots of newcomers, and their initial big spend is at GW. Once they are past that they either drop out, are brand/store loyal vets or vets that have "wised up" and buy discounted. Either way its working to their store model; you join, once hooked and hosed GW gamers are pushed toward clubs with other regulars players. There is not much room in store for a vet community so it makes sense.

    GW are fine with people making long term purchases at discount. It's like brand and store brand cereal, GW covers both "premium" and discount needs except with the same product.

    With this can be done more in the Uk because of the density of stores but make no mistake GW are looking to roll this out to the US.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 07:12:42


    Post by: Knockagh


    We don't really have any independent stores near us. I really live visiting my local GW store though just for a chat with the staff if nothing else.
    Also use it to pick up Black LIbrary releases.

    But not to bashbut you do get a feeling of fear from the staff if you raise anything outside GW products which is slightly childish. They should have enough confidence to talk about other manufacturers without going all weird.
    I definitely think if they sold some FW products sales would go wild. Even a limited number of products, it would be a good intro to FW for people who havnt bought FW before.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 07:28:29


    Post by: TheAuldGrump


     The Shadow wrote:
    Think back to when you started the hobby. Did you start buying of independent retailers/eBay straight away? Almost definetly, the answer is no. You went to a GW.
    When I got started in the hobby GW was not yet a twinkle in Ian Livingston's eye.

    I would not go in a GW store unless I had a gift certificate, then I would buy terrain and nothing else.

    So, no, very much a false premise - and one that assumes that GW is the 'hobby'.

    It isn't - I got started in fantasy miniatures gaming with Chainmail by a fellow named Gary Gygax (and Chainmail was already several years old when I started playing it) using Minifig miniatures.

    Not a Citadel miniature on the table.

    And Chainmail was not the first wargame that I played.

    An awful lot of people didn't get their introduction to fantasy gaming at a GW store - and some of us have never seen a GW store.

    The Auld Grump


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 08:46:24


    Post by: Riquende


     TheAuldGrump wrote:
    An awful lot of people didn't get their introduction to fantasy gaming at a GW store - and some of us have never seen a GW store.


    I think it's entirely a UK thing. The GW brand is so pervasive over here, that when I talk to non-gaming people about hobbies and mention wargaming they generally look blank, then if I describe what it is they say "Oh, you mean Warhammer". If they're a relatively young male they often follow it up with "I used to have some of those". The stores exist in almost all major towns, usually at the expense of any FLGS. I'm sure though, there are UK 'Auld Grumps' out there that have been gaming longer than GW and spend all their time in dusty church halls with the historicals, but for anyone here under 30 I'd be amazed if they were a gamer and hadn't gone the GW route, even briefly.

    I hope that GW gets bought out and the various pieces sold off .- it would be amaxzing if, almost overnight, there was a nationwide chain of gaming stores stocking all sorts of products from Mantic, Warlord, CB, PP, etc. Obviously never going to happen, but it would be a huge shot in the arm for the hobby (the wider hobby, not the GW one) if it did.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 09:55:42


    Post by: notprop


     Riquende wrote:
    .....I hope that GW gets bought out and the various pieces sold off .- it would be amaxzing if, almost overnight, there was a nationwide chain of gaming stores stocking all sorts of products from Mantic, Warlord, CB, PP, etc. Obviously never going to happen, but it would be a huge shot in the arm for the hobby (the wider hobby, not the GW one) if it did.



    I'd actually suggest it would go the other way. GW form a skeleton to general UK gaming that others are happy to work around. Its a brand that people recognise and draws in new gamers very well. Once they have the gaming bug that's where Battlefront, Mantic et al step in and say "hey look what else there is!". Many of these other companies seem to be quite happy to have GW in place, they perform a service that none of the smaller companies can match in this regard at a completely different scale.

    Without GW at this point it would take many years for the retail side of wargaming to come back up if at all in the UK. At a time when high streets are emptying of stores generally because of incredibly high rates and not being able to compete with internet retailers, who would be able to run a FLGS profitably giving the discounts that people seem to desire? The only sort of places that open up these day are boutique shops and judging by the usual whining no one wants to pay boutique prices for games (I don't, it bad enough the Mrs wastes so much of my money in them on fripperies and crap!).

    I've grown up with GW and can remember when they had only 1 or 2 shops. I also remember that there was not a huge choice of games shops even then in my part of the world; there was Warlord Games in Southend and for a short time a small stall in Basildon, other than that it was a train ride to Hammersmith (London) to go to GW. So that's 2 places in the whole of southern Essex (my county/state) or an hour + train ride to GW. I'm happy that GW exists all over the place and that because of that ubiquity there is now 4Tk, Wayland, Marques Models and other operating in this county because of it selling those other lines.

    To wish that away seems nonsensical to me. GW doesn't damage other games manufacturers rather enables them; this is a good thing.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 10:25:46


    Post by: Herzlos


    If they had stock of the online only stuff I'd use them. It doesn't need to be on the shelf, in a storage tray in the back is sufficient.

    The current stock range is poor for veteran gamers; almost everything I want to buy is direct only now, so there's no point visiting a store just to order stuff online.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 10:52:52


    Post by: ahzek


    Herzlos wrote:
    If they had stock of the online only stuff I'd use them. It doesn't need to be on the shelf, in a storage tray in the back is sufficient.

    The current stock range is poor for veteran gamers; almost everything I want to buy is direct only now, so there's no point visiting a store just to order stuff online.


    /I always try to order direct only stuff instore, yes its the same as doing it at home but instore, but it helps the manager reach those 'potentialy' ridiculous sales targets

    My local managers a good guy and always able to help, and ordering at home, even if it gets delivered to his store doesnt help him at all. I wouldnt want him replaced by someone awful

    devil you know and all that


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 11:36:15


    Post by: kb305


    from a canadian perspective, they have no chance of competing

    what the store would sell for 41.50 with sales tax costs 25 flat from a US discounter.

    he gives free shipping and is fast. it's here in 1 week or less.

    that's 40% saving and i like stuff being brought straight to my door rather than having to go out and get it.

    GW store is far away, gas isnt cheap, so that's another advantage of buying online.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 12:10:53


    Post by: xruslanx


    Seems like a strange question given that gw stores unquestionably last longer than gaming stores, i've known two flgs, both of them shut down within months. By contrast there have been about 3 games workshops within half an hour of me for at least 15-20 years of my life.

    I think their central location is probably the biggeest pull to adult hobbyists. If you're in town anyway, you can pop in to get your plastic crack fix, then go for a coffee or something, without having to wait or deal with packages in the post. It helps that the store is clean, warm, well lit and professionally staffed - i certainly couldn't say that about all gaming stores.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 12:56:12


    Post by: jonolikespie


    xruslanx wrote:
    Seems like a strange question given that gw stores unquestionably last longer than gaming stores, i've known two flgs, both of them shut down within months. By contrast there have been about 3 games workshops within half an hour of me for at least 15-20 years of my life.

    I think their central location is probably the biggeest pull to adult hobbyists. If you're in town anyway, you can pop in to get your plastic crack fix, then go for a coffee or something, without having to wait or deal with packages in the post. It helps that the store is clean, warm, well lit and professionally staffed - i certainly couldn't say that about all gaming stores.


    There is a VERY big difference in GW store saturation between the UK and the rest of the world. Over there they have a store in every town and have driven the FLGS out of business long ago, leaving no brick and mortar stores to compete with (that actually may be a big part of the reason they can't compete in other parts of the world now that I think about it, no practice).

    Down here in Oz, and from everything I have heard the same seems to hold true in every other part of the western world bar the UK, GW stores are few and far between. They usually pop up somewhere then a year later find themselves relocated with a new manager. Whether this is directly because of competition with other stores I can't say but I can tell you that there was a GW store in Sydney that set up shop just up the road from my mate's local FLGS and six months later the FLGS hadn't lost any business but the GW store was in a sorry state.

    As for the other points, I can only speak for the store that popped up half an hour down the road from me and the rest is going off what I've heard from others but I have yet to encounter a GW in a central location, they always seem to be out of the way but not too out of the way. Not in high traffic areas but around the corner from them in locations where they can set their own hours since they can't do that in the big shopping centers/malls.
    Clean, warm and well lit I'll give you but professionally staffed, I think not. I find it hard to have a conversation with my local Redshirt as he seems VERY reluctant to give his actual opinion on anything, every new models is great, objectivly bad models from 10+ years ago (like that god awful Nagash) are 'classics', finecrap is the greatest medium ever, dropper bottles dry out faster than the pots that he puts on his shelf after they were baked in the truck on the way to his store, his painting advice is base>layer>dry>wash and doesn't extend beyond that at all and, most importantly, he doesn't give demo games.
    Instead he lines up three models or so and tells them 'you need a three to hit, then a 3 to wound the first guy, a 4 for the other two. You get two shots at the first guy, but the second and third are out of rapid fire range so you only get 1. First guy gets no saves, second gets a 4+, third a 2+. You have 10 rounds in your magazine, go.'
    Then next time they drop in he'll do something similar for assault.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 13:41:59


    Post by: Saldiven


    orkybenji wrote:
    Not all independents sell at less than retail. All three of the Independents near me sell at full retail. It is also easier to find 40k players in a GW than at an independent that serves multiple games and communities. The players often get diluted and it can be hard to organize.


    From my experience, I have to say that finding a game at an indie has to be much easier than at a GW just because of a matter of space. Most of the new one-man stores that GW is opening have space for one or two gaming tables and that's it. Compared to the three indie stores I know in metro Atlanta that all have 6-12 tables at any given time. The 40K players just don't go to the GW store for a game.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     TheAuldGrump wrote:


    It isn't - I got started in fantasy miniatures gaming with Chainmail by a fellow named Gary Gygax (and Chainmail was already several years old when I started playing it) using Minifig miniatures.

    The Auld Grump


    I still have my copy of Chainmail


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 14:14:12


    Post by: The Infinite


    I think most people on this board and virtually everyone not from the UK needs to understand that they simply don't matter to GW. GW's entire business model revolves around roping 12-year-olds into their stores, selling their parents on the idea of a social club that they can drop their "little darlings" off at whilst they go shopping and milking them for all they're worth for the next three years.
    They don't worry about retention, there is no shortage of 12-year-olds; a new crop every year.
    They don't care about overseas markets, they're a bonus to the bottom line, the company could continue almost indefinitely on the UK alone.
    If you're buying online, I have a message for you: You aren't GW's target market! You're too old and your purchases are in such minority, GW barely notices them.

    We were told repeatedly, both in-store by area managers and at head office on training that stores were marketing, with a better return than any other form of advertising that GW could use.

    (The other "horror" tale I remember was, they expected to lose "hobbyists" at age 15 when they "discover" girls, but about 5% return at ages 18-20, but then require virtually no selling-to as they're lifers who will buy no matter what. I do not envy anyone working in GW stores, I did my time and I'm glad I left.)


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 14:32:17


    Post by: keezus


    kb305 wrote:
    from a canadian perspective, they have no chance of competing

    what the store would sell for 41.50 with sales tax costs 25 flat from a US discounter.

    he gives free shipping and is fast. it's here in 1 week or less.

    that's 40% saving and i like stuff being brought straight to my door rather than having to go out and get it.

    GW store is far away, gas isnt cheap, so that's another advantage of buying online.

    The previous poster's observation is also part of the reason why FLGS are getting kicked in the teeth up here in Canada, as the GW stockist discount is based on local MSRP.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 14:58:43


    Post by: Azreal13



    We were told repeatedly, both in-store by area managers and at head office on training that stores were marketing, with a better return than any other form of advertising that GW could use.


    Yeah, my line managers would tell me stuff that was blatant bull too, it's part of their job.

    So all those retail chains with networks of stores that also spend a fortune on advertising for themselves and what they sell are just wasting time and money?


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 15:15:34


    Post by: Easy E


    Appeal to other retail motivators besides price.

    Those are....
    Convenience
    Save Time
    Build Security
    Build Status



    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 15:25:38


    Post by: MadmanMSU


    There isn't much any GW store can do to be competitive. They are, at least here in the US, highly controlled by corporate management.

    The GW near me was great for awhile, because the manager basically broke all the rules that corporate established. I went out of my way to shop there because I liked the manager (we're still friends, btw). He would buy us pizza, keep the store open late so we could finish our games, I typically got my codex 3 or 4 days before the release date (really miss this perk), etc etc etc. To a certain degree, corporate would look the other way, because his numbers were 400% higher than the previous guys month to month. Eventually he quit for a better job, and now they have a corporate stooge running the store. Guess where I buy all my stuff now? Online.

    The answer is simple. For a GW store to do more/better business, corporate needs to change.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 15:35:05


    Post by: Tannhauser42


    The only way for GW stores to compete with the FLGS is for them to become the FLGS. Sell all the games (GW, PP, Mantic, M:TG, FFG, etc.), have lots of gaming space, etc. But, even this model would not truly succeed without some sort of discount on GW product (be it random sales, reward programs, lower prices for all, whatever) as people would still find ways to buy those cheaper elsewhere So, without a major philosophical shift from GW HQ, this won't happen.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 15:53:01


    Post by: xghostmakerx


    If GW stores sold Forgeworld items I'd probably shop there more but without loyalty programs and discounts there is no reason for me to go to a GW store and buy the exact same thing that I can get down the street for at least 15% off that price.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 16:23:38


    Post by: Herzlos


    ahzek wrote:
    Herzlos wrote:
    If they had stock of the online only stuff I'd use them. It doesn't need to be on the shelf, in a storage tray in the back is sufficient.

    The current stock range is poor for veteran gamers; almost everything I want to buy is direct only now, so there's no point visiting a store just to order stuff online.


    /I always try to order direct only stuff instore, yes its the same as doing it at home but instore, but it helps the manager reach those 'potentialy' ridiculous sales targets

    My local managers a good guy and always able to help, and ordering at home, even if it gets delivered to his store doesnt help him at all. I wouldnt want him replaced by someone awful

    devil you know and all that


    Given the opportunity I'd do that; but it's a reasonable trip out of the way to go to the store and order, and then going back to the store to collect. So I'd either rather wait until I'm out that way or just order online to collect and only waste an hour + round trip in the middle of my working day once.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 16:34:09


    Post by: CinciWarBoss


    1) Establish real world pricing. GW sells their products with a markup similar to luxury items like designer handbags. This markup allows for serious undercutting by local clubs satisfied with a lower profit margin. It also invites counterfeiting

    2) Focus on experience. Build larger stores (more "Battle bunkers"). Offer tournaments, leagues, special events. These things give players an incentive and an opportunity to buy/use models without requiring significant (or any) expenditure.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 16:57:37


    Post by: Talizvar


    To compete: Be a one stop shop, have everything and a calm, relaxed, knowledgeable sales person. Everything to convey the feeling of supporting the experience or "culture" of the hobby. At least make it comfortable to game there.

    GW store:

    If you spend longer than 10 minutes there browsing the single manager/sales guy in the store gets frustrated the sale was not closed in the first 5 and acts like he has no idea why you are there and you are creeping him out. "Felt" this in a couple of the stores.

    Only "basic" stuff is stocked but they are more than happy to direct you to on-line sales and they will let you know when the product is in.

    Ensure that every item is "high quality" yes they pride themselves on the models but the paint containers and supplementary craft / gaming product is poor, let us not talk about their glues.


    Local hobby store:

    Variety of gaming product so we can "cherry pick" the best paints, glue, materials in general for conversion. They are the true one stop shop with everything needed for the success of cool looking games.

    We get to play there! They sell snacks, drinks and have a coffee maker! Places to sit and multiple nice tables ready to go.

    They have a web site to arrange meeting people for a game.

    A local store carries the "most requested" Forge World stuff as well in stock!

    Member, loyalty cards, email alerts of sales being held all provided.

    GW - to succeed need to be more inclusive, drop the occasional reward or a tiny sign of appreciation or valuing their customers. We have a voice in these game clubs, none with the GW "shopping experience".


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 17:06:27


    Post by: Chrissy_J


     Tannhauser42 wrote:
    The only way for GW stores to compete with the FLGS is for them to become the FLGS. Sell all the games (GW, PP, Mantic, M:TG, FFG, etc.), have lots of gaming space, etc. But, even this model would not truly succeed without some sort of discount on GW product (be it random sales, reward programs, lower prices for all, whatever) as people would still find ways to buy those cheaper elsewhere So, without a major philosophical shift from GW HQ, this won't happen.


    ^^^^ This ^^^^

    And not having staff that act like Mormons on speed would probably help a lot as well - the longest I've spent in a GW store, without being approached by an 'eager beaver' member of staff who wants to sell me a complete game, is four and a half minutes


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 18:23:36


    Post by: Palindrome


     The Shadow wrote:
    Think back to when you started the hobby. Did you start buying of independent retailers/eBay straight away? Almost definetly, the answer is no. You went to a GW.


    I bought my first GW stuff from an independent and that was in the UK, when the internet was only being used by supercomputers. I only saw an actual GW when I went to university. GW isn't so prevalent in the UK as people claim.

    Today I think that the independents are having a bit of an renaissance, the old tiny and cluttered shops hidden away on back streets are giving way to larger, event centred venues.

    GW's shops are there almost entirely for advertising, there are much more effiecient ways fo simply selling toy soldiers and GW evidently doesn't want anything to do with them.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 18:53:27


    Post by: Grot 6


    ahzek wrote:
    Please note this isnt a GW bashing thread (yeah i know), nor is it directly a pricing thread

    We all know it costs more to buy models firectly from Games workshop than from independents, but I was wondering what the guys in the stores can do to compete with those Independent traders.

    Im sure price is a huge deciding factor for a lot of people, but what about convenience, or customer service? Or maybe gaming space, specialist knowledge (?)

    Iv been thinking this because my local GW closed down recently because it wasnt making enough profit (Newport, Wales)

    Like I say this isnt a bashing thread, Id ike to see intelligent comments :p



    Beer. Fun. More tables, and reasons to go to the store.

    I went to two different ones over the summer. The Managers were BOTH top notch, but the shop opening times were a little screwy.

    I spent some time modeling and painting in there and they didn't give me static, so that made for a good time.

    Had issue and whished that I would have been able to bring some... beverages, and snacks.

    GW stores are not very profitable on a good day, thier so called business practices do not give local managers very much as far as wiggle room, and indi thought is punished.


    Only real issue I have with them now is that going in is liken to going into a Micky D's. They don't have a personal soul as far as the stores go, they have to two the party line.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 19:32:52


    Post by: The Shadow


    Saldiven wrote:
     The Shadow wrote:

    . Think back to when you started the hobby. Did you start buying of independent retailers/eBay straight away? Almost definetly, the answer is no. You went to a GW.


    Actually, if you're in the USA, it is almost certain that your initial GW experience was not in a GW store.

    I've been in a GW store exactly once in my life. That was when I was visiting my FLGS and the owner found out his GW delivery was shorted a new army book. He asked one of his employees to drive over to the GW store to pick on up, and I rode along. I was in the store probably about 30 seconds. My first experience, and 99.999% of my subsequent experiences, with GW have been through an independent retailer.

    Ok, fair enough, I can't speak for countries outside of the UK, so maybe it is different elsewhere.

    I stand by what I said with regards to the UK though.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 19:58:47


    Post by: welshhoppo


    See, our local gaming shop does this.

    You get 10% off all GW stuff, which is good in it self.

    But Canterbury has quite a strong gaming community, mostly due to the Canterbury Crusaders. So what this shop has done is give an additional 10% off if you are a member of the Canterbury Crusaders.

    I wish more shops were like that.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 20:48:26


    Post by: Azreal13


     The Shadow wrote:

    I stand by what I said with regards to the UK though.


     The Shadow wrote:

    The purpose of GW stores is to bring people into the hobby and then get the money of new players, and ones who have yet to discover new ways of buying models. For the vast majority of the community members, GW stores, and the website, are the only way to get models. Think back to when you started the hobby. Did you start buying of independent retailers/eBay straight away? Almost definetly, the answer is no. You went to a GW.


    When I started, the nearest GW was 90 mins away by car, and I was about 12, so, no, I didn't order online, because the Internet didn't exist, I used the local Indy, which was actually a train, static and RC models shop with a really grumpy old sod managing it who clearly didn't like wargames and so kept a tiny corner dedicated to it and probably only ordered new stock once a year, which was fine, as on my pocket money, I couldn't afford much.

    Even some people who are "veterans" still buy from GW, since they're "blind" to other methods. Another question. Before you joined Dakka, or any other similar online wargaming forum, how aware were you of other ways of buying GW models? Probably not very. You might have clued on to eBay, but chances are you'll never have heard of The Warstore or Wayland Games or anything like that.


    Disagree. Every single person in the Western world under the age of 50, perhaps even older, knows to look online when purchasing something that is any more than a moderate investment, especially something that will demand spending large sums over a long period like a hobby. Even if you aren't looking to buy, you will at least look for reassurance you aren't being ripped off, or to make an informed purchasing decision. When I started wargaming again in 2010, I'd discovered Maelstrom and Wayland, and ordered from them, long before I started using Dakka.


    We people, here, who are very clued up about what's going on in the hobby, are a very small minority of the community. As long as it stays that way, GW stores will keep making profit.


    The only people I know personally who still buy more than a bit of paint from our local GW are the handful who, for whatever reason, still play there. That numbers maybe 3 out of 30 or so regular attendees to my club. One of which could be considered to spend approaching substantial sums (he has impulse control issues and 40K is srs bsns for him)

    I think its important to distinguish between GW being profitable and GW stores making a profit. While I wouldn't contend they lose money hand over fist, or that some stores don't even make good money, to assume that every shop is making money is probably inaccurate, almost every chain will have unprofitable locations that it maintains for a variety of reasons. In the case of GW, I think maintaining the shops is a large burden on the company, and an unnecessary one IMO, and a similar result could have been achieved by clever support of Independant traders for a lot less upkeep and investment. Alas, I suspect that ship has long since sailed, and GW is now somewhat stuck with the consequences of those choices.

    Either way, in an economy where online shopping is fast outstripping high street shopping, to think that anyone who buys online is in "a very small minority" is, again, IMO flat out wrong.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 22:15:20


    Post by: ahzek


    The high streets dying, (at least in the traditional sense) but I don't think gw would survive very long without stores


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 22:23:58


    Post by: Grimtuff


    ahzek wrote:
    The high streets dying, (at least in the traditional sense) but I don't think gw would survive very long without stores


    They would in the UK though, simply due to ubiquity. As already said by other people, GW is synonymous with wargaming in the UK; most people have never even heard that there are other games out there. To them, GW IS wargaming. I think GW would do fine if they closed every store in the UK (with the exception of Warhammer World), there is also the UK's network of gaming clubs to consider, many of them are located in what I like to call "GW towns" (My hometown, Lincoln is one of them IMO), even though they are independent clubs, GW still dominates the landscape and many other games don't even get a look in, even though many club members try, but to no avail (but this is tangential to the original point).

    The USA or Oz OTOH.... Yeah, they'd be dead in the water.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 22:40:03


    Post by: ahzek


    But in terms of new customers, without stores there would be significantly fewer, I don't know many people in the hobby that didn't start with gw products


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 22:41:18


    Post by: Isbjornen


     Aerethan wrote:
    I can tell you right now, at least here in the US, stores that operate at a loss will have quick manager turnaround and if they don't profit they get closed.


    Oh god that's probably what happened here in Oslo, Norway. Well I don't know. Luckily they haven't closed down.

    Prices in Norway are the same at GW as in other stores I've found that sell 40k products. Not that there's a whole lot of them that I know of.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/06 23:08:03


    Post by: Azreal13


    ahzek wrote:
    But in terms of new customers, without stores there would be significantly fewer, I don't know many people in the hobby that didn't start with gw products


    Well, my first official mini was a Ral Partha model, bought from a Dillons book store when they still existed and had a role playing section, my first game was Space Crusade (heavy GW involvement, but MB were the big name on that) followed by a copy of Talisman purchased from aforementioned grumpy sod (who also sold me my softcover Rogue Trader a little ways down the line)

    My first GW purchase, from a GW store, was a Rhino from GW Torquay. I may or may not have bought from mail order before then, and I certainly had White Dwarf on order at my local Newsagent, but that Rhino was probably some two years down the line from that Ral Partha Dwarf on a Pony.

    I'm not just trying to disagree with you for the sake of it, but there was a time when even when GW's product was popular, their stores weren't necessarily anywhere like as prevalent as these days, but wargamers are a resourceful bunch with some sort of collective unconscious knowledge. We find a way.

    I do wonder if more independents in the UK wouldn't be better for the hobby? I know the conventional wisdom is that, regardless of what else you think of them, GW provide a gateway into wargaming that brings a steady flow of new blood into the hobby, some of whom stick around and graduate onto other games. The price of entry to 40K or Fantasy is only going one way, and Specialist Games have largely gone the way of the Dodo. Certainly we know that new players get inducted via GW, but we can never know how many who would be interested, but aren't prepared to invest the time and money (or whose parents aren't prepared at least!)

    An Indy store wouldn't have to rely on one of two choices (I think at this point it is fair to call LOTR a non-starter in most cases) to hook someone in. They could demo X Wing, with a much lower barrier to entry in pretty much all directions, Infinity, Batman or any other lower model count game. They would even be able to tailor the game they demo to the prospect's taste, rather than trying to shoehorn his preferences into a limited framework. Even a modest buy in for a GW game, with books, paints, glue etc, is approaching £150, X Wing can be bought as a standalone product for £25, Infinity could feasibly be started from scratch including paints for ~£60 or so.

    While it might be fair to say GW brings new blood into the hobby, one has to wonder how many it discourages?



    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/07 00:07:58


    Post by: troa


    Frankly, it needs to be a hobby store. And there need to be more of them in the US, which means they need to probably carry other company's products as well, with just a VERY heavy focus on GW things.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/07 02:34:55


    Post by: Peregrine


     Grimtuff wrote:
    The USA or Oz OTOH.... Yeah, they'd be dead in the water.


    IMO it's the exact opposite. If every single GW store in the US closed overnight hardly anyone would notice. If the same thing happened in the UK then GW would probably go bankrupt.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/07 02:35:16


    Post by: Rayvon


    I order some stuff from GW, but its the direct only things, the *****!
    I know a few folk that always use them too, mainly because they like the speed in which it comes and its guaranteed good service, no messing about.
    Not everyone always uses the cheapest option available, price is not always the key factor, in my experience some people dont mind to pay more.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/07 08:35:42


    Post by: Grimtuff


     Peregrine wrote:
     Grimtuff wrote:
    The USA or Oz OTOH.... Yeah, they'd be dead in the water.


    IMO it's the exact opposite. If every single GW store in the US closed overnight hardly anyone would notice. If the same thing happened in the UK then GW would probably go bankrupt.


    What I mean is those stores are pretty much GW's last tenuous grasp on those respective continents. You're correct in saying hardly anyone would notice on your end, but I firmly think GW would endure in the UK simply due to it being so ingrained.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/07 09:45:20


    Post by: schadenfreude


    MTG takes very little shelf space and causes a store to become packed on a Friday night. Asking how a GW store can compete with a FLGS is like asking how bar that doesn't serve beer can compete with bars that serve both shots and beer.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/07 10:34:37


    Post by: Peregrine


     Grimtuff wrote:
    What I mean is those stores are pretty much GW's last tenuous grasp on those respective continents. You're correct in saying hardly anyone would notice on your end, but I firmly think GW would endure in the UK simply due to it being so ingrained.


    No, what I mean is that independent stores dominate in the US, and those stores sell GW games. If every GW store disappeared overnight most of the existing players would just move to the nearest independent store (and continue to buy the same GW products), and those stores would do just as well at recruiting new players. GW would have to settle for selling to the stores at less than full retail, but they'd also be done with the expense of operating their own stores. So in the end it's probably not much of a difference to them.

    On the other hand, in countries where GW stores dominate and there isn't a market full of independent stores already in place losing those GW stores would do serious damage to the hobby because there would be nothing left to cover their absence. The community would have nowhere to buy and play (at least without inconvenient travel requirements), and GW would have nowhere to sell their products.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/07 11:46:13


    Post by: The Infinite


    azreal13 wrote:

    We were told repeatedly, both in-store by area managers and at head office on training that stores were marketing, with a better return than any other form of advertising that GW could use.


    Yeah, my line managers would tell me stuff that was blatant bull too, it's part of their job.

    So all those retail chains with networks of stores that also spend a fortune on advertising for themselves and what they sell are just wasting time and money?


    Given Primark, one of the largest fashion retailers in the UK doesn't advertise, period, yet are completely dominating the high streets and retail parks, you could argue that advertising is an expensive distraction that doesn't automatically lead to success.
    Hell, some of the more effective retail chains make money by owning their online competitors and using their stores as nothing more than a showroom (and screwing their staff with commission based salaries that they have no way of earning 'cus the company's own website is 20% cheaper).
    Furthermore, if they are the only seller in town, yes they are wasting money.

    You don't seem to understand, GW aren't selling their product with their stores, they're selling child-free shopping for 3 hours each Saturday/Sunday, they're selling social contacts and new friends for 12-13-year-olds, they're selling a place where all xmas and birthday presents can be bought with no need to pay attention to what your child is doing (the man in the store knows what little Tarquin collects), they're selling bragging rights about how creative and artistic your little darling is.
    GW stores exist to sell to parents of 12-year-olds, upper middle class parents to be exact since they're the ones with money.

    It's a horrific business model, based on exploitation and massive customer turnover with the staff trained to appeal to parents through their children.
    Hell, even the ages on the boxes are generous, so you can think "how clever little Johnny is, playing a game for children so much older than him".


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/07 12:46:57


    Post by: Azreal13


    Of course I understand how they justify the product to the parents, "you sell the sizzle, not the sausage" and it's pointless selling to Person A, when Person B is the one who has to put their hand in their pocket.

    Being the only seller in town doesn't mean you shouldn't advertise either. I worked in one site that had been open and trading for 7 years when I took over, in a small market town, yet still, with fairly dependable regularity, we would get people looking for he shoe shop hat had previously occupied the building. Also, advertising returns to my earlier point, we know how many people start in GW and play GW games, we don't know how many who would start if they knew where the shop was located, or what product they offered. Conventional advertising would reach people that simply don't know they're interested enough to seek out a small shop in an out of the way location, and then find out for themselves. Granted, I suspect many people who are enthused about wargaming will find them out anyway, but GW financials suggest they need a new source of customers to keep growing, and they won't find them hiding in their shops.

    Primark isn't a great example, given they are a discount retailer, who are pretty much all universally doing well at the moment, and GW have positioned themselves as a premium brand and long claimed to rely on word of mouth from their customers, yet these days I personally don't know anyone who has been involved with GW for a while with much good to say (certainly nobody whose opinion would carry enough weight with a parent to convince them to spend hundreds of pounds.)

    I agree that it is a terrible business model, and just another example where I feel GW does just enough to keep things going, where a different approach could yield substantially better returns, both financially for GW and to the wider hobby in general


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/07 13:02:42


    Post by: notprop


    It's a business model that has made GW the biggest wargames manufacturer by a factor of about ten.

    That's terrible?


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/07 13:34:18


    Post by: Azreal13


     notprop wrote:
    It's a business model that has made GW the biggest wargames manufacturer by a factor of about ten.

    That's terrible?


    Not really, the current method is a much more recent change, they've been the biggest for a lot longer.

    It's the business model that seems to have brought growth grinding to a near halt while all those around them seem to be enjoying an unprecedented era of growth.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/07 13:58:33


    Post by: schadenfreude


    GW is afraid of competition from other games such as warmahordes, infinity, and mallifux. The others are far superior for small scale battles, and far inferior for large scale battles. Because GW has the largest market share they want GW stores to isolate their customers from competition, but they completely forgot the FLGS is what introduces new customers to GW products when they show up to play a different game and see people playing 40k. Purchasing and playing at a GW store instead of a FLGS hides 40k from potential new players and causes the growth of 40k to become anemic.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/07 19:10:07


    Post by: ahzek


    Didn't gw say before they didn't see their competitors as competition, something to do with 30 years experience and a retail chain


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/07 19:32:59


    Post by: RatBot


    ahzek wrote:
    Didn't gw say before they didn't see their competitors as competition, something to do with 30 years experience and a retail chain



    They may have said that, and in the past it was true to a degree; when I started GW games almost no other games were played locally; maybe less than half a dozen BattleTech, CAV, and Confrontation players. However, this is no longer the case at all, and at the stores I frequent, Warmachine and Malifaux players show up in roughly equal numbers to 40K and WHFB players. Furthermore, Warmachine, Malifaux, and other games like Infinity seem to be growing by leaps and bounds.

    GW may say they don't see their competition as competition, but if that's true, it's because they're not even looking, or at least, they're not looking at the North American markets. I don't know how it is in UK and continental Europe. I suspect, in reality, they are aware of their competition, hence the more aggressive release cycle and the seemingly more grandiose nature of said releases. I don't know if it's working or not.

    Regardless, I simply can't imagine it's more cost effective to maintain a chain of tiny retail stores in the US than to allow Indies to carry the weight. As I've said before in other threads, I know very, very few people who started playing due to GW stores.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/08 05:02:34


    Post by: xxvaderxx


     Peregrine wrote:
    The answer is no, it is not possible for GW stores to compete. It's like asking how to make water not be wet, or how to make 1+1=3. Imagine you have two stores:

    Store A:
    * Sells everything at 10% off full retail price.
    * Sells a wide range of non-GW products, including some combination of other miniatures games, RPGs, card games, board games, RC cars/planes, comics, etc.
    * Is open during regular business hours, seven days a week.
    * Has plenty of gaming space for all of the various games they sell, including semi-organized game nights and/or ongoing leagues.
    * Has no rules on using third-party components in your games, since they sell those as well.
    * Has useful staff with the freedom to give you useful help instead of just reciting company policy.

    Store B:
    * Sells everything at full retail price.
    * Only sells GW products.
    * Is only open for limited hours, only five days a week, and is randomly closed in the middle of the day so the one employee can have a lunch break.
    * Has limited gaming space, and only allows GW games.
    * Does not allow anything other than official GW products in the store.
    * Has useless staff that have to deal with strict company rules or risk being fired.


    So why would you ever go to store B, unless you don't know that store A exists?


    The answer is simple i would not. To be honest, i never thought that GW stores had to actually make a profit, i always thought (while certainly a few of them have to make profit, through simple statistic probability) most run at a loss and the managers job was to reduce that loss as much as possible, i always thought their point was to promote their product, not to actually sustain the company through sales. Which with their current pricing policy seems rather unfeasible.

    Oh since somebody asked, Never set foot on a gw store, got started on the hobby with 2 armies made out of recasts (empire and chaos) same as my brother (lizard men) and friends did, i currently own 2 other full plastic armies. So i do not believe piracy is detrimental to their industry either, i would not have joined the hobby if i could not play full sized games, god knows i started into this for the game, not the hobby and there are far better and far cheaper models out there if you are only interested in making artistic pieces.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/08 21:15:02


    Post by: ahzek








     RatBot wrote:
    ahzek wrote:
    Didn't gw say before they didn't see their competitors as competition, something to do with 30 years experience and a retail chain



    They may have said that, and in the past it was true to a degree; when I started GW games almost no other games were played locally; maybe less than half a dozen BattleTech, CAV, and Confrontation players. However, this is no longer the case at all, and at the stores I frequent, Warmachine and Malifaux players show up in roughly equal numbers to 40K and WHFB players. Furthermore, Warmachine, Malifaux, and other games like Infinity seem to be growing by leaps and bounds.

    GW may say they don't see their competition as competition, but if that's true, it's because they're not even looking, or at least, they're not looking at the North American markets. I don't know how it is in UK and continental Europe. I suspect, in reality, they are aware of their competition, hence the more aggressive release cycle and the seemingly more grandiose nature of said releases. I don't know if it's working or not.

    Regardless, I simply can't imagine it's more cost effective to maintain a chain of tiny retail stores in the US than to allow Indies to carry the weight. As I've said before in other threads, I know very, very few people who started playing due to GW stores.



    I guess bravado is key there


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/09 02:03:11


    Post by: TheAuldGrump


    ahzek wrote:
     RatBot wrote:
    ahzek wrote:
    Didn't gw say before they didn't see their competitors as competition, something to do with 30 years experience and a retail chain



    They may have said that, and in the past it was true to a degree; when I started GW games almost no other games were played locally; maybe less than half a dozen BattleTech, CAV, and Confrontation players. However, this is no longer the case at all, and at the stores I frequent, Warmachine and Malifaux players show up in roughly equal numbers to 40K and WHFB players. Furthermore, Warmachine, Malifaux, and other games like Infinity seem to be growing by leaps and bounds.

    GW may say they don't see their competition as competition, but if that's true, it's because they're not even looking, or at least, they're not looking at the North American markets. I don't know how it is in UK and continental Europe. I suspect, in reality, they are aware of their competition, hence the more aggressive release cycle and the seemingly more grandiose nature of said releases. I don't know if it's working or not.

    Regardless, I simply can't imagine it's more cost effective to maintain a chain of tiny retail stores in the US than to allow Indies to carry the weight. As I've said before in other threads, I know very, very few people who started playing due to GW stores.



    I guess bravado is key there
    Chutzpa - that quality that allows one to kill one's parents, then plead for leniency on the rounds that one is an orphan.

    The Auld Grump


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/09 09:15:07


    Post by: Herzlos


    The Infinite wrote:

    Given Primark, one of the largest fashion retailers in the UK doesn't advertise, period, yet are completely dominating the high streets and retail parks, you could argue that advertising is an expensive distraction that doesn't automatically lead to success.


    I don't think that's a good example; Primarks are always huge stores in prominent positions; you can't really visit a shopping centre without seeing one here and target everyone at the lower end of the market (they do guys/girls clothes, and homeware stuff), and have pretty long opening hours. Almost everyone has some vague need that can be fulfilled by Primark (I get my shirts they, they don't last long but they are £2 each). Because they are so ubiquitous everyone knows about it.

    GW on the other hand is at the high end of their niche market, on side streets with minimal opening hours. Very few people have any real need to visit them, assuming they even know it exists.

    Primark probably wouldn't benefit from advertising, but GW probably would. I wonder how many people coming out of a Hobbit film are [a] aware of GW or [b] aware they GW have a Hobbit game out? If that figure for A/B isn't at least 75% GW needs to do some advertising.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/09 11:40:42


    Post by: Azreal13


    I didn't say what you quoted dude, something got crossed over somewhere!


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/09 11:59:20


    Post by: Herzlos


    You're right, it was The Infinite quoting you, and I've messed the tags up. Sorry.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/09 13:28:11


    Post by: aliusexalio


    The stores are not only there to sell models. They are there to get new people into the hobby and to create a physical presence of the company and the hobby.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/10 10:58:28


    Post by: Rayvon




    Most GW in the UK are in prominent positions, in areas of very high foot traffic, they do that for a reason.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/10 12:04:02


    Post by: soupfly


    my local GW is in the ideal place for its target group. Right next to the bus stop that the kids from the private school down the road have to wait at to go home. They even put objections in to the council when they tried to put a fully covered bus shelter in. I guess they wanted the kids in the store or outside getting rained on.

    didn't GW start as the FLGS ( I used to order FASA stuff from them ) and decide they would rather keep there profits for themselves.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/10 12:18:46


    Post by: Mike712


    GW Newport used to be one of the best stores about, they had 4 gaming boards in the shop and another 8 or so in the basement which was a really decent sized gaming space.

    Moving from that to a 1 man broom closet sized store with only 2 demo boards was the death of games workshop newport.

    Luckily firestorm games is only a 20 minute train trip away it's a stones throw from Cardiff Central, most of the older WHFB and 40k players in South Wales go there rather than GW itself, the staff are more friendly, they have a huge gaming space, even a bar and a kitchen you can use to make drinks and food and of course support all other games systems not just GW. I don't see how GW could ever compete with that.

    By sticking to selling and supporting only their own product GW are driving themselves out of the store retail sector.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/10 17:30:26


    Post by: notprop


    soupfly wrote:
    ..........didn't GW start as the FLGS ( I used to order FASA stuff from them ) and decide they would rather keep there profits for themselves.


    Sort of.

    Ian Livingstone, John Peake and Steve Jackson could get the games they like so started a shop and distributor that really exploded when they landed the European rights to D&D and other US game ranges. This ceased when they sold out to Bryan Ansell and he realised that their own games were better sellers than the imported stuff. Warhammer 3rd and WH40K:RT, you might of heard of them?


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/12 00:00:36


    Post by: Grimtuff


    On the subject of GW stores competing. Just realised this after browsing a few store's FB pages. GW is once again rigidly sticking to their opening hours of the one man stores, so the last shopping day in them directly is Sunday the 22nd December.

    Yes, let's ignore 2 days of last minute purchasing because the 23rd and Christmas eve fall on days the store is closed. Some nearby FLGSs must be jumping for joy.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/12 00:39:39


    Post by: Lorizael


     Grimtuff wrote:
    On the subject of GW stores competing. Just realised this after browsing a few store's FB pages. GW is once again rigidly sticking to their opening hours of the one man stores, so the last shopping day in them directly is Sunday the 22nd December.

    Yes, let's ignore 2 days of last minute purchasing because the 23rd and Christmas eve fall on days the store is closed. Some nearby FLGSs must be jumping for joy.


    The manager of one of my local GWs was putting up his xmas opening hours poster today- he's shut 23/24 too. I asked him about it and he said it was entirely up to individual managers' discretion. He reckoned it was a pretty even split between managers who were opening and who were staying shut. Personally he said those days were fairly dead for the past 2 years, and he has a family he'd like to spend some time with over christmas...


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/12 02:02:22


    Post by: jonolikespie


    You know you hear a lot of 'its up to us but its really not worth it' come from redshirts these days and, this time in particular, I'm inclined to call bull whenever I hear it.

    I really can't imagine half of the store managers just can't see the benefit in being open those 2 days.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/12 03:40:16


    Post by: timetowaste85


     jonolikespie wrote:
    You know you hear a lot of 'its up to us but its really not worth it' come from redshirts these days and, this time in particular, I'm inclined to call bull whenever I hear it.

    I really can't imagine half of the store managers just can't see the benefit in being open those 2 days.


    Maybe they realize the company is dying-that's why they can't see the bonus in staying open during 2 of the 3 busiest days of the year.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/12 04:16:22


    Post by: Strombones


    I feel like this is all a strange paradox like situation. Most GW stores cant compete with FLGS that offer discount off retail and gaming space. Most FLGS have a hard time competing (in tabletop games) against the full 20 to 25 percent online discounters.

    Maybe in a slightly ironic way we are destroying our own community areas?
    Certainly GW stores could generate more traffic by space and time, but in an age of online discounters, GW and FLGS will not be able to compete for long. Even the most loyal store fan succumbs to discounts from time to time. It is after all, perfectly rational .

    This is of course in reference to GW products alone. If GW did not wholesale to independents then they wouldn't have this problem. I wonder if they would ever take that step and what actual consequences (intentional and unintentional) it would yield.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/12 04:38:02


    Post by: timetowaste85


     Strombones wrote:
    I feel like this is all a strange paradox like situation. Most GW stores cant compete with FLGS that offer discount off retail and gaming space. Most FLGS have a hard time competing (in tabletop games) against the full 20 to 25 percent online discounters.

    Maybe in a slightly ironic way we are destroying our own community areas?
    Certainly GW stores could generate more traffic by space and time, but in an age of online discounters, GW and FLGS will not be able to compete for long. Even the most loyal store fan succumbs to discounts from time to time. It is after all, perfectly rational .

    This is of course in reference to GW products alone. If GW did not wholesale to independents then they wouldn't have this problem. I wonder if they would ever take that step and what actual consequences (intentional and unintentional) it would yield.


    My current game store seems to do a regular 10% off for all regulars. It took me about 3 trips to count as a "regular" and I get a discount all the time. I don't buy online, unless it's something they can't get. Or unless it's a kickstarter...in which case...duh! Lol. When I hated my previous gamestore before moving to Connecticut... yeah, I ordered online rather than give them the business. But I play at this store 2-3 nights a week at times, sometimes only 1, and if I want a regular place to chill with the guys, I help keep it open. It's usually busy-not packed to the point of being unable to move, but you aren't ever at a loss for playing games.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/12 05:00:02


    Post by: Strombones


    @timetowaste85

    I'm with you brother. seems like you got a nice setup and like you, I would be all about keeping it open. I don't know how the population differs from where you and I are ( Charleston is roughly 700,000 tops including much of the surrounding area) but for some reason we can't manage to keep a decent games store open. I doubt that gamers here and in Connecticut are very different, so it leads me to believe that there are some very real economic phenomena occurring.

    Its sad really. All I really want is a decent games club. Many of my friends agree. many of us support it at a loss to ourselves. but they never stay open. .. :(

    They usually follow the same trend; Start as a games store. Become a Magic the Gathering store. Close.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/12 05:27:00


    Post by: timetowaste85


     Strombones wrote:
    @timetowaste85

    I'm with you brother. seems like you got a nice setup and like you, I would be all about keeping it open. I don't know how the population differs from where you and I are ( Charleston is roughly 700,000 tops including much of the surrounding area) but for some reason we can't manage to keep a decent games store open. I doubt that gamers here and in Connecticut are very different, so it leads me to believe that there are some very real economic phenomena occurring.

    Its sad really. All I really want is a decent games club. Many of my friends agree. many of us support it at a loss to ourselves. but they never stay open. .. :(

    They usually follow the same trend; Start as a games store. Become a Magic the Gathering store. Close.


    It's all about being a part of the community. My old store sucked/sucks and has been circling the drain for years. The owner is hemorrhaging money out of his own pocket. He doesn't run events at all, other than one open game night and Magic. A new store popped up in town that my friend is a co-owner of, and the college kids are pouring out of the wood works to get in. He's hosting events, throwing flyers up all over campus, sending messages to friends who own game stores an hour away to work together on events and get cross pollination...community. Gamers gotta stick together, yo. My new place is like that-congregate at the store most of the time, but many semi-local events take place and everyone gets involved. No activity in the gaming community and only running a store has seemed to fail, based on the experiences I've seen.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/12 05:27:51


    Post by: Andrew1975


     jonolikespie wrote:
    You know you hear a lot of 'its up to us but its really not worth it' come from redshirts these days and, this time in particular, I'm inclined to call bull whenever I hear it.

    I really can't imagine half of the store managers just can't see the benefit in being open those 2 days.


    Well, what is the incentive? Sure there might be a lot of sales that day, but the managers and employees don't see any of that money. They don't get paid a commission or anything.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/12 06:24:28


    Post by: jonolikespie


     Andrew1975 wrote:
     jonolikespie wrote:
    You know you hear a lot of 'its up to us but its really not worth it' come from redshirts these days and, this time in particular, I'm inclined to call bull whenever I hear it.

    I really can't imagine half of the store managers just can't see the benefit in being open those 2 days.


    Well, what is the incentive? Sure there might be a lot of sales that day, but the managers and employees don't see any of that money. They don't get paid a commission or anything.


    They don't directly get paid commission but their salarys are based on their sales figures and they are by all accounts constantly under pressure to increase sales on last year and those that don't are replaced.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/12 06:50:01


    Post by: Andrew1975


     jonolikespie wrote:
     Andrew1975 wrote:
     jonolikespie wrote:
    You know you hear a lot of 'its up to us but its really not worth it' come from redshirts these days and, this time in particular, I'm inclined to call bull whenever I hear it.

    I really can't imagine half of the store managers just can't see the benefit in being open those 2 days.


    Well, what is the incentive? Sure there might be a lot of sales that day, but the managers and employees don't see any of that money. They don't get paid a commission or anything.


    They don't directly get paid commission but their salarys are based on their sales figures and they are by all accounts constantly under pressure to increase sales on last year and those that don't are replaced.


    So no then. There is basically no incentive to be open and if GW makes it optional then screw it. Id go home and be with my family too. Those last two days are not going to make or break you. If you ever worked retail, you know those are the crappy slave days, nobody would work them unless they were forced to.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/12 07:26:52


    Post by: cammy


     azreal13 wrote:
     notprop wrote:
    It's a business model that has made GW the biggest wargames manufacturer by a factor of about ten.

    That's terrible?


    Not really, the current method is a much more recent change, they've been the biggest for a lot longer.

    It's the business model that seems to have brought growth grinding to a near halt while all those around them seem to be enjoying an unprecedented era of growth.
    uyi


    what advertising would you propose then?

    DM, Press buying, Online ads, commercial tv? these things are not cheap and require a specialist team/s to manage these and ensure that corporate governance is met, so its not just the cost of the advertising its the additional costs to the employees devoted to this at head office, do you keep the design of this in house is yes then you need more people in your creative studio, if no you have additional costs for this being contracted out to an agency.

    to me the uk model works quite well and grimtuffs example of Lincoln holds true to most places in the UK the main towns cities have strong wargaming clubs which are gw centric.

    tbh i think the US and other areas they have spread to thin, and should focus on the state level and try and saturate the market there and build it up, and complely bypass states which dont fit a certain population density metric,


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/12 07:30:26


    Post by: Palindrome


     Peregrine wrote:

    On the other hand, in countries where GW stores dominate and there isn't a market full of independent stores already in place losing those GW stores would do serious damage to the hobby because there would be nothing left to cover their absence. The community would have nowhere to buy and play (at least without inconvenient travel requirements), and GW would have nowhere to sell their products.


    I think that this is an overestimation. On the supply side online retailers would continue to provide their services and there would be a stimulus for new independents to open. There are three types of FLGS in the UK, small little and badly run man caves (who have mostly been put out of business by online retailers anyway, small retailers with an online store (like the Troll Trader) and larger retailers with a physical and online presence and plenty of gaming space (like Maelstrom before it imploded) and its the latter that I would suspect would begin to proliferate. If GW's retail arm vanished overnight (which would only happen if the company went bankrupt) then there would be an impact on wargaming but it won't be crippling and it won't be long lasting.

    On the gaming side there will still be plenty of clubs, I suspect, but obviously cannot prove, that the majority of wargaming is done either in clubs or in private homes and very little is done within GWs. Little Timmy and his friends may well be cast adrift if his local GW closed but even then there are clubs which cater to children (there is a medium sized club just down the road from me whose membership appears to be mostly kids). I haven't so much as rolled a dice in a GW shop for years, I think the last time was when War of the Ring was released and I had a demo game. I understand that in the US the FLGS tends to be the epicentre of local gaming but in the UK it tends to be the local club.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/12 09:52:37


    Post by: Azreal13


    cammy wrote:
     azreal13 wrote:
     notprop wrote:
    It's a business model that has made GW the biggest wargames manufacturer by a factor of about ten.

    That's terrible?


    Not really, the current method is a much more recent change, they've been the biggest for a lot longer.

    It's the business model that seems to have brought growth grinding to a near halt while all those around them seem to be enjoying an unprecedented era of growth.
    uyi


    what advertising would you propose then?

    DM, Press buying, Online ads, commercial tv? these things are not cheap and require a specialist team/s to manage these and ensure that corporate governance is met, so its not just the cost of the advertising its the additional costs to the employees devoted to this at head office, do you keep the design of this in house is yes then you need more people in your creative studio, if no you have additional costs for this being contracted out to an agency.


    Not working for GW, I don't have the necessary info to make that call, but I think they've already tried several methods, with some degree of success, such as the DeAgostini/LOTR thing, and DoW and SM videogames. These get Warhammer and GW out in the wider domain, reaching a wider audience, and still potentially generate revenue. It looks pretty obvious from comments made in Financial Reports by Kirby and various other instances, that GW simply do not believe in working with outside agencies, I believe much to their detriment. Rather than get behind cross platforms products and really try and drive sales of their core offering, they seem content to hunker down behind their moat and wall and just collect the licence fee.


    to me the uk model works quite well and grimtuffs example of Lincoln holds true to most places in the UK the main towns cities have strong wargaming clubs which are gw centric.


    Works well for who?

    You can make a convincing argument that GW's market share, whilst still dominant, is shrinking. You can make the related argument that their income has stayed relatively flat while evidence suggests that the wargaming/hobby market as a whole is growing.

    It doesn't seem to work for a lot of people, certainly only a handful of our club play at our local GW anymore. In fact, the manager recently posted in our Facebook page trying to bring players in. This was a remarkable turnaround, as previously we hadn't been able to get any sort of relationship going with him at a club level (perfectly decent bloke, one on one) because we "play other games" which brings him out in a cold sweat! He also refused to promote us in store because we weren't GCN registered, which again sounds like one of the "sorry, my hands are tied" or "sorry, just not worth it" type arguments others have mentioned. We have good reason, GCN require separate public liability cover for clubs, and won't accept that the hall we hire includes public liability as part of the fee, and frankly we do just fine for members without the help.

    In fact, we aren't what I'd describe as "GW centric" While 40K is popular, it probably accounts for about 1/3 of games played on a normal night, and Fantasy barely registers most weeks.

    I walked past the store on it's traditional club night recently, only to see the guy in there by himself. Then it made sense. This is going to vary from place to place of course, but as with anyone else, I can only really comment on my experiences.


    tbh i think the US and other areas they have spread to thin, and should focus on the state level and try and saturate the market there and build it up, and complely bypass states which dont fit a certain population density metric,



    The US is a graveyard for European companies, any corporation from this side of the Atlantic that makes a success of it in the US is very much an exception. The fact that GW still tries to maintain a token presence over there, rather than adjust their approach and embrace the much more deeply established network of independents is just as likely down to hubris on their part at the moment as anything else.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/12 11:46:30


    Post by: Grimtuff


    cammy wrote:

    to me the uk model works quite well and grimtuffs example of Lincoln holds true to most places in the UK the main towns cities have strong wargaming clubs which are gw centric.


    I think you may have misinterpreted a little. Whilst GW has a more or less of a stranglehold on our city, this is to the detriment of the gaming club the community has formed. People become set in their ways of "GW or nothing else" (remember the time they wanted to ban non-GW games from being played up at the club? Glad that one got shot down PDQ) and are unwilling to even try anything new despite playing in an environment where they have no such restrictions.

    Thus we have the phenomenon (in the UK certainly at least) of "GW towns", where they have been the only game in town for so long (a good opposite example in the UK IMO is Burton-on-Trent, with Spirit Games being the "go to" place for so long then GW all of a sudden appear) that people have become indoctrinated without even realising it.

    This is obviously quite an amazing thing that GW has managed to pull off (maybe without even realising it themselves) maintaining loyalty simply through ubiquity. I cannot count the amount of times I've heard people say the only reason they play is because everyone else does (or conversely the reason they won't try Warmachine for example is due to lack of opponents, or it would eat into their monthly "GW budget"). This is why I'm confident they would survive in the UK if you got rid of all of the stores. GW has indirectly created these clubs with incredibly strong ties to the company's games, whilst this is good for GW, it is a little bad for the hobby as a whole.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/12 12:12:18


    Post by: jonolikespie


     Grimtuff wrote:
    whilst this is good for GW, it is a little bad for the hobby as a whole.


    I'd argue that GWs 'we are the hobby' policy is a cancer on wargaming in general but yeah, there is no denying that kind of mindset sucks. We didn't even get a GW store in my area until like 1.5/2 years ago but the community that has built up here in that time is terrible. They play 40k, a few of them have dipped their toes in fantasy and one or two even play it almost as much as they play 40k but despite not playing at the GW store I still get funny looks* for mentioning anything other than GW games.


    *The saddest part though is that while most of these funny looks are 'what is this 'other game' you speak of' a few of them are 'get the out, I don't want you poisoning my club with this nonsense'.
    Hmm.. perhaps I should be posting this in the bad store stories thread..


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/12 12:36:34


    Post by: Grimtuff


     jonolikespie wrote:



    *The saddest part though is that while most of these funny looks are 'what is this 'other game' you speak of' a few of them are 'get the out, I don't want you poisoning my club with this nonsense'.
    Hmm.. perhaps I should be posting this in the bad store stories thread..


    Oh, don't get me wrong. The "proposal" I mentioned was met with pretty much open revolt by pretty much everyone. But will they go play these games? Nope. But many of these non-GW games are stagnating with their own cliques that cannot grow or just become a FOTM once any official support left, such as with the case of Heroclix.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/12 12:59:01


    Post by: Barfolomew


    These are the things I've seen work for FLGS

    - Run regular tournaments with some sort of prizes. The tournament has some level of buy-in to compete. What I've typically seen is $5 for constructed tournaments (MtG, Yugio, Pokeman, etc.) $15 for MtG draft. This allows the store to pay for at least the time of the person running the tournament. The goal is to get people in seats so they can sell product associated with the game (sleeves, packs, dice, mats, etc.).

    - Have some sort of food service. The biggest table top store near me has a full cafe in it. Again, gaming it merely there to get people in the store where the store then makes money off food and impulse buys.

    - Offer discounts based on attendance and regular purchases. Basically recognizing that margin can be compromised for volume.

    Things I have seen that don't work

    - Having limited product in store; basically having to order everything. If the store is going to order it, then I might as well order it and get a discount.

    - Charging full retail all the time. Why would I pay full retail when I can get a discount.

    - No draw to have people in the store. Tournaments, regular gaming nights and other methods need to be employed to get the community together, otherwise the barrier to fun is much steeper and thus people loose interest.

    - No food, drink or bathrooms. This lets me leave the store and thus I might not come back.

    It basically boils down to the FLGS needs to create an environment where I can meet fellow gamers to play said game, cater to my basic human needs while I am there and make it so I can make impulse purchases that I feel like I'm not getting screwed on.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/12 14:16:25


    Post by: Art_of_war


     Grimtuff wrote:
    cammy wrote:

    to me the uk model works quite well and grimtuffs example of Lincoln holds true to most places in the UK the main towns cities have strong wargaming clubs which are gw centric.


    I think you may have misinterpreted a little. Whilst GW has a more or less of a stranglehold on our city, this is to the detriment of the gaming club the community has formed. People become set in their ways of "GW or nothing else" (remember the time they wanted to ban non-GW games from being played up at the club? Glad that one got shot down PDQ) and are unwilling to even try anything new despite playing in an environment where they have no such restrictions.

    Thus we have the phenomenon (in the UK certainly at least) of "GW towns", where they have been the only game in town for so long (a good opposite example in the UK IMO is Burton-on-Trent, with Spirit Games being the "go to" place for so long then GW all of a sudden appear) that people have become indoctrinated without even realising it.

    This is obviously quite an amazing thing that GW has managed to pull off (maybe without even realising it themselves) maintaining loyalty simply through ubiquity. I cannot count the amount of times I've heard people say the only reason they play is because everyone else does (or conversely the reason they won't try Warmachine for example is due to lack of opponents, or it would eat into their monthly "GW budget"). This is why I'm confident they would survive in the UK if you got rid of all of the stores. GW has indirectly created these clubs with incredibly strong ties to the company's games, whilst this is good for GW, it is a little bad for the hobby as a whole.


    well said...

    Where I am, I attend the Warlords of Walsall if you must know, we have started to bust the GW mentality. However I'm personally stuck in the middle of this process, which is bloody annoying sometimes I like warmachine and we do have a few regulars but the 40k lot are more reliable on a weekly basis.

    This was highlighted last weekend when we did a charity event, we had 6 40k players, 6-8 fantasy and the other 20+ were warmahordes players. Its going to be a wargaming new year resolution of mine to play more warmachine and let my 40k projects sit in the painting stage for longer- even if I'm starting Eldar.

    Also most of the GWs in Birmingham and surrounding areas are accessible by public transport as not all of us have personal transport to get to some of the independents who are a bit out of the way. And that is a big factor personally, as well as the fact the independent that is accessible is a bit 'stuffy' to say the least. Whereas the GW staff are far more polite/'welcoming' even if you have to ward a few off...

    And this is the problem... GW is so 'common' in many areas it seems very difficult to make people realise that there are other games out there, moreover some seem to fear the other games when you say you are playing them on a particular week.

    Still whenever I pop in to my 'local' GW its mostly full of kids who have no idea of what they are doing and will probably never attend our club despite the fact we will offer far more 'challenging' games


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/12 15:22:39


    Post by: Breng77


     Chute82 wrote:
    They have to be doing something right since I see stores opening here in the United States in the White Dwarf mag. Not sure what it is but some investor has put his money on the line looking for a return. Never been to a GW store and don't have one near me. So I really don't know what they have to offer besides models at retail cost


    This is not really true at all. Public companies will often open new stores so that they appear to be growing, or want to try tapping a new market. Borders was opening new stores in the US up until basically the year they went out of buisiness. So opening stores says nothing of success.

    GW by and large would be much better off canning their retail army and letting other LGS sell their product. They would probably get a much larger bang for their buck by hiring sales staff that went to those stores and ran events, stocked displays, ran demos etc like plenty of other companies do (not just in gaming but elsewhere companies have merchandisers that make sure their products are displayed in a satisfactory manner, do sales demonstrations etc.) If you had these guys regionally and paid them the same as a current GW manager...and they worked with the retailers...I think you would see a much better result. As it is having a brick and mortar is just a drain on GWs resources for little real return.

    I also agree that in the US in many places you never see a GW getting into the game. I found it at my local comic shop growing up...at game stores etc now. I started the game in maybe 1994 and the first time I actually was in a GW was maybe 3 years ago.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/12 18:39:36


    Post by: stargasm


    Some kind of loyalty card would be nice to see. That apears to be how the big video game retailers work in the UK with things like bonus points if you re-order items for first day pick collection.

    It will never happen!


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/12 20:53:29


    Post by: Barfolomew


    GW by and large would be much better off canning their retail army and letting other LGS sell their product. They would probably get a much larger bang for their buck by hiring sales staff that went to those stores and ran events, stocked displays, ran demos etc like plenty of other companies do (not just in gaming but elsewhere companies have merchandisers that make sure their products are displayed in a satisfactory manner, do sales demonstrations etc.) If you had these guys regionally and paid them the same as a current GW manager...and they worked with the retailers...I think you would see a much better result. As it is having a brick and mortar is just a drain on GWs resources for little real return.
    I think GW is too arrogant to admit that giving up the 40% margin by selling purely to FLGS and other retailers is more profitable in the long run. I think they still think they can get 80% (or whatever) of the market tied up by serving the customer directly and thus bath in the extra 40% margin. Truth is they will never get that penetrated in the market.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/12 21:27:14


    Post by: Saldiven


     azreal13 wrote:
    The fact that GW still tries to maintain a token presence over there, rather than adjust their approach and embrace the much more deeply established network of independents is just as likely down to hubris on their part at the moment as anything else.


    I kind of have to agree with this, to a point.

    GW experienced far more growth in the USA when they actively supported FLGS and the tournament scene than they have since they started their own network of retail stores. One would have a hard time arguing that their retail chain is less expensive to operate than a group of sales people who traveled around to various FLGS's promoting sales and the hobby would be. In the USA, it is far more likely that a person's first experience with a GW TTG came from a FLGS than from a GW store, even today with the GW retail network. I feel that GW would be far more successful in the USA if they scrapped their retail presence and spent that money on reaching out to FLGS's and providing support to that gaming community like they did 10+ years ago.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/12 23:10:41


    Post by: MajorStoffer


    There's a lot of good ideas here as to what GW *could* do, but what they actually try to do, and will likely continue to do is quite different.

    Most of the folks here seem to be from the UK or US; makes sense, they're the biggest market and all, but you can get a "sneak peak" at what might happen down the line by looking at secondary markets like here in Canada.

    Much like the US, we've got a pretty well enshrined independent retailer tradition; comic books, sports collectibles, 40k/other miniatures, board games and gaming space under one roof. Since our population is extremely spread out between a handful of high-density regions, there'll be a handful of stores per city, their size and market focus dependent on where they are (downtown versus suburbs, etc). Most of these stores' owners know one another, and design their business to minimize competition and can and will relocate to suit changing demographics and development.

    About, oh, 7 years ago, GW had a fairly good footprint here in Vancouver. This city has one of the more active wargaming communities in the country, likely owing to its large size (for this country) and proximity to several major US wargaming areas along the west coast. GW had a store in the province's biggest mall, and one in each of the major downtown areas. Beginning about 3 years ago, they started closing all of them.

    The catalyst for this is up for debate, but is largely attributed to the merging of GW Canada and GW USA, as while Vancouver made good money for the Canadian district, as part of the US, it's barely a drop in the bucket.

    So, today, there's a single GW in a province of 7 million, and it's actually well supported by GW, designed to compete with the 5 or so major independent retailers, but in a manner most would find morally objectionable.

    GW wants to drive the market through its single store, and its online interface in this market, and it does this by extremely aggressive policies against the independents, rather than in support of its store. Stock manipulation, order failures, "lost" invoices and so on. Effectively, every independent in the region can expect only an absolute minimum of their orders to be completed, with the exception of what GW views as limited-value product; i.e. finecast and The Hobbit.

    As an example, Store X submits a large order to replenish its stocks (my FLGS has a huge section for GW stuff, and since they offer American retail pricing over Canadian, they move it quick). This order will be delayed for weeks, if not months (supply issues, shipping errors, etc), whereas GW proper will have no supply issues. When the order finally ships, it will consist of a minimum number of items; if Store X ordered 5 squads of cadians, GW will send 1, but if they ordered 5 finecast Farsights, they'll get all 5.

    Limited time offerings like the megaforces or these new xmas bundles, well they'll be lucky to get one between the 5 stores. The only product they'll reliably get is the new releases; maintenance of stock is virtually nil. Even the new releases are getting increasingly difficult to actually get a hold of independently (2 week delay on Dark Elves, Escalation and Stronghold Assault simply aren't going to be shipped).

    Because GW refuses to try and compete with the independents on any even field, they aim to undermine them as much as possible. Where a store offers good hours, better pricing, and, heaven forbid, sells non-GW product as well, they'll get only the basic amount of support the trade terms stipulate, and even that will be manipulated as much as possible. This is how GW aims to compete.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/12 23:24:11


    Post by: Cypher-xv


    "What can GW stores do to compete"?

    How about throwing the occasional sale instead of some half backed contrived coupon giving you a discount on shipping.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/13 06:31:31


    Post by: cammy


     Art_of_war wrote:
     Grimtuff wrote:
    cammy wrote:

    to me the uk model works quite well and grimtuffs example of Lincoln holds true to most places in the UK the main towns cities have strong wargaming clubs which are gw centric.


    I think you may have misinterpreted a little. Whilst GW has a more or less of a stranglehold on our city, this is to the detriment of the gaming club the community has formed. People become set in their ways of "GW or nothing else" (remember the time they wanted to ban non-GW games from being played up at the club? Glad that one got shot down PDQ) and are unwilling to even try anything new despite playing in an environment where they have no such restrictions.

    Thus we have the phenomenon (in the UK certainly at least) of "GW towns", where they have been the only game in town for so long (a good opposite example in the UK IMO is Burton-on-Trent, with Spirit Games being the "go to" place for so long then GW all of a sudden appear) that people have become indoctrinated without even realising it.

    This is obviously quite an amazing thing that GW has managed to pull off (maybe without even realising it themselves) maintaining loyalty simply through ubiquity. I cannot count the amount of times I've heard people say the only reason they play is because everyone else does (or conversely the reason they won't try Warmachine for example is due to lack of opponents, or it would eat into their monthly "GW budget"). This is why I'm confident they would survive in the UK if you got rid of all of the stores. GW has indirectly created these clubs with incredibly strong ties to the company's games, whilst this is good for GW, it is a little bad for the hobby as a whole.


    well said...

    Where I am, I attend the Warlords of Walsall if you must know, we have started to bust the GW mentality. However I'm personally stuck in the middle of this process, which is bloody annoying sometimes I like warmachine and we do have a few regulars but the 40k lot are more reliable on a weekly basis.

    This was highlighted last weekend when we did a charity event, we had 6 40k players, 6-8 fantasy and the other 20+ were warmahordes players. Its going to be a wargaming new year resolution of mine to play more warmachine and let my 40k projects sit in the painting stage for longer- even if I'm starting Eldar.

    Also most of the GWs in Birmingham and surrounding areas are accessible by public transport as not all of us have personal transport to get to some of the independents who are a bit out of the way. And that is a big factor personally, as well as the fact the independent that is accessible is a bit 'stuffy' to say the least. Whereas the GW staff are far more polite/'welcoming' even if you have to ward a few off...

    And this is the problem... GW is so 'common' in many areas it seems very difficult to make people realise that there are other games out there, moreover some seem to fear the other games when you say you are playing them on a particular week.

    Still whenever I pop in to my 'local' GW its mostly full of kids who have no idea of what they are doing and will probably never attend our club despite the fact we will offer far more 'challenging' games



    i might have to get a game against you sometime then as Warlords is my local club! however i didnt have a great experiance the first couple of times i went so i never went back. worth another try though


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/13 08:48:48


    Post by: ahzek


     azreal13 wrote:
    cammy wrote:
     azreal13 wrote:
     notprop wrote:
    It's a business model that has made GW the biggest wargames manufacturer by a factor of about ten.

    That's terrible?


    Not really, the current method is a much more recent change, they've been the biggest for a lot longer.

    It's the business model that seems to have brought growth grinding to a near halt while all those around them seem to be enjoying an unprecedented era of growth.
    uyi


    what advertising would you propose then?

    DM, Press buying, Online ads, commercial tv? these things are not cheap and require a specialist team/s to manage these and ensure that corporate governance is met, so its not just the cost of the advertising its the additional costs to the employees devoted to this at head office, do you keep the design of this in house is yes then you need more people in your creative studio, if no you have additional costs for this being contracted out to an agency.


    Not working for GW, I don't have the necessary info to make that call, but I think they've already tried several methods, with some degree of success, such as the DeAgostini/LOTR thing, and DoW and SM videogames. These get Warhammer and GW out in the wider domain, reaching a wider audience, and still potentially generate revenue. It looks pretty obvious from comments made in Financial Reports by Kirby and various other instances, that GW simply do not believe in working with outside agencies, I believe much to their detriment. Rather than get behind cross platforms products and really try and drive sales of their core offering, they seem content to hunker down behind their moat and wall and just collect the licence fee.


    to me the uk model works quite well and grimtuffs example of Lincoln holds true to most places in the UK the main towns cities have strong wargaming clubs which are gw centric.


    Works well for who?

    You can make a convincing argument that GW's market share, whilst still dominant, is shrinking. You can make the related argument that their income has stayed relatively flat while evidence suggests that the wargaming/hobby market as a whole is growing.

    It doesn't seem to work for a lot of people, certainly only a handful of our club play at our local GW anymore. In fact, the manager recently posted in our Facebook page trying to bring players in. This was a remarkable turnaround, as previously we hadn't been able to get any sort of relationship going with him at a club level (perfectly decent bloke, one on one) because we "play other games" which brings him out in a cold sweat! He also refused to promote us in store because we weren't GCN registered, which again sounds like one of the "sorry, my hands are tied" or "sorry, just not worth it" type arguments others have mentioned. We have good reason, GCN require separate public liability cover for clubs, and won't accept that the hall we hire includes public liability as part of the fee, and frankly we do just fine for members without the help.

    In fact, we aren't what I'd describe as "GW centric" While 40K is popular, it probably accounts for about 1/3 of games played on a normal night, and Fantasy barely registers most weeks.

    I walked past the store on it's traditional club night recently, only to see the guy in there by himself. Then it made sense. This is going to vary from place to place of course, but as with anyone else, I can only really comment on my experiences.


    tbh i think the US and other areas they have spread to thin, and should focus on the state level and try and saturate the market there and build it up, and complely bypass states which dont fit a certain population density metric,



    The US is a graveyard for European companies, any corporation from this side of the Atlantic that makes a success of it in the US is very much an exception. The fact that GW still tries to maintain a token presence over there, rather than adjust their approach and embrace the much more deeply established network of independents is just as likely down to hubris on their part at the moment as anything else.



    I know a few guys at the Cwmbran store had a similar experience with gaming going then coming back, apparently scrapping gaming was a pressure from above that has now gone away, probably as sales dropped

    OTOH One of the stores I popped into somewhere else. (Can't remember where) told me their gaming space was scrapped because the users were buying elsewhere


    I don't know how I'd feel if I worked in a store and the only people I saw were gamers who we're buying elsewhere, especially with something like gw because it is cheaper elsewhere


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/13 12:58:14


    Post by: aliusexalio


     Strombones wrote:
    I feel like this is all a strange paradox like situation. Most GW stores cant compete with FLGS that offer discount off retail and gaming space. Most FLGS have a hard time competing (in tabletop games) against the full 20 to 25 percent online discounters.

    Maybe in a slightly ironic way we are destroying our own community areas?
    Certainly GW stores could generate more traffic by space and time, but in an age of online discounters, GW and FLGS will not be able to compete for long. Even the most loyal store fan succumbs to discounts from time to time. It is after all, perfectly rational .

    This is of course in reference to GW products alone. If GW did not wholesale to independents then they wouldn't have this problem. I wonder if they would ever take that step and what actual consequences (intentional and unintentional) it would yield.


    The presence of a GW in my area is actually eliminating any presence of a lfgs in my area. All retailers that did sell WHF40k quit selling it with the arrival of the GW shop.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/13 15:05:52


    Post by: Dutch Wife


    I expect my situation is unusual to say the least, but the GW in my town is actually better than my local indie store, which is more of a MTG/board game store that happens to sell a few of the major wargames. The indie store has a whopping 0% discount on their citadel models, and their employees actually seem annoyed when I try to spend money in their store, like I ruined the guy's day by asking for a box of Ork Boyz. Meanwhile the guy manning the GW jumps to attention as I approach the store, and his ridiculous up-selling attempts are always good for a laugh.

    Me: "Hi, I need a box of 10 Ork Boyz"

    Guy Manning the GW: "Why not get a Battleforce instead?"

    Me:

    I used to only buy smaller kits from GW and make all of my larger 40K purchases from MiniWarGaming for the ~15% discount, but they got purged by the Inquisition. So now the local GW has no real competitor for my 40K business, and the only reason for me to shop at my Unfriendly LGS is for Reaper and FoW stuff.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/13 21:12:13


    Post by: Pacific


     Lorizael wrote:
     Grimtuff wrote:
    On the subject of GW stores competing. Just realised this after browsing a few store's FB pages. GW is once again rigidly sticking to their opening hours of the one man stores, so the last shopping day in them directly is Sunday the 22nd December.

    Yes, let's ignore 2 days of last minute purchasing because the 23rd and Christmas eve fall on days the store is closed. Some nearby FLGSs must be jumping for joy.


    The manager of one of my local GWs was putting up his xmas opening hours poster today- he's shut 23/24 too. I asked him about it and he said it was entirely up to individual managers' discretion. He reckoned it was a pretty even split between managers who were opening and who were staying shut. Personally he said those days were fairly dead for the past 2 years, and he has a family he'd like to spend some time with over christmas...


    Completely anecdotal, but many years ago when I worked in a store I remember the last few days before xmas were pretty busy - of course those were the days of 3 full time staff and a part timer even in a tiny store, so we drew lots for which of us would work those days (I lost ). Remember being pretty rushed off my feet with some desperate looking dads coming in and not knowing what the hell they were looking for (similar to the kind of thing you get if you've ever worked in a music store.. "I don't know the name.. she's got blonde hair, does that song 'mmm.mmmmm... mm.dumdum, do you know who I mean?" ) and then some sod in another store sending a customer my way to pick up a single blister pack of something or other so I ended up closing at normal bloody time


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/14 01:36:09


    Post by: TheAuldGrump


     Pacific wrote:
     Lorizael wrote:
     Grimtuff wrote:
    On the subject of GW stores competing. Just realised this after browsing a few store's FB pages. GW is once again rigidly sticking to their opening hours of the one man stores, so the last shopping day in them directly is Sunday the 22nd December.

    Yes, let's ignore 2 days of last minute purchasing because the 23rd and Christmas eve fall on days the store is closed. Some nearby FLGSs must be jumping for joy.


    The manager of one of my local GWs was putting up his xmas opening hours poster today- he's shut 23/24 too. I asked him about it and he said it was entirely up to individual managers' discretion. He reckoned it was a pretty even split between managers who were opening and who were staying shut. Personally he said those days were fairly dead for the past 2 years, and he has a family he'd like to spend some time with over christmas...


    Completely anecdotal, but many years ago when I worked in a store I remember the last few days before xmas were pretty busy - of course those were the days of 3 full time staff and a part timer even in a tiny store, so we drew lots for which of us would work those days (I lost ). Remember being pretty rushed off my feet with some desperate looking dads coming in and not knowing what the hell they were looking for (similar to the kind of thing you get if you've ever worked in a music store.. "I don't know the name.. she's got blonde hair, does that song 'mmm.mmmmm... mm.dumdum, do you know who I mean?" ) and then some sod in another store sending a customer my way to pick up a single blister pack of something or other so I ended up closing at normal bloody time
    Heh - I remember when I was shopping in Border's one of the customers came up to a sales girl (the girl that I am currently dating, as chance has fallen) and wanted help finding a book - she described it as 'it's thick and has a red cover'.

    I amazed Meagan by telling the customer to go two aisles down and look at the end cap. (She was looking for The Dangerous Book for Boys, but didn't know the title - as soon as she said that the book was thick, with a red cover I knew exactly what book she was talking about. And, for the record, The Dangerous Book for Boys is pretty danged awesome.)

    The Auld Grump


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/14 17:52:52


    Post by: chris86


    ahzek wrote:
    Please note this isnt a GW bashing thread (yeah i know), nor is it directly a pricing thread

    We all know it costs more to buy models firectly from Games workshop than from independents, but I was wondering what the guys in the stores can do to compete with those Independent traders.

    Im sure price is a huge deciding factor for a lot of people, but what about convenience, or customer service? Or maybe gaming space, specialist knowledge (?)

    Iv been thinking this because my local GW closed down recently because it wasnt making enough profit (Newport, Wales)

    Like I say this isnt a bashing thread, Id ike to see intelligent comments :p


    I live in newport but work in cardiff so usually visit that store wasnt aware it had closed... no more emergency paint runs accross the bridge.


    What can GW stores do to compete? @ 2013/12/15 04:28:21


    Post by: Strombones


     aliusexalio wrote:
     Strombones wrote:
    I feel like this is all a strange paradox like situation. Most GW stores cant compete with FLGS that offer discount off retail and gaming space. Most FLGS have a hard time competing (in tabletop games) against the full 20 to 25 percent online discounters.

    Maybe in a slightly ironic way we are destroying our own community areas?
    Certainly GW stores could generate more traffic by space and time, but in an age of online discounters, GW and FLGS will not be able to compete for long. Even the most loyal store fan succumbs to discounts from time to time. It is after all, perfectly rational .

    This is of course in reference to GW products alone. If GW did not wholesale to independents then they wouldn't have this problem. I wonder if they would ever take that step and what actual consequences (intentional and unintentional) it would yield.


    The presence of a GW in my area is actually eliminating any presence of a lfgs in my area. All retailers that did sell WHF40k quit selling it with the arrival of the GW shop.


    Vrai. I guess I'm thinking about this through a North American context. Like many in the US and Canada, who played 40k since the 90's, I never saw a GW store until a few years ago.