As we know, Games Workshop and Black Library's canon and fluff has been written, rewritten, agreed upon, argued against, and interpreted again and again. Basically, it's a mess! And on top of that, Games Workshop has always encouraged fans to 'make their own mind up' about fluff.
So, with that in mind, what's your view on how the Imperial Guard opperate?
Okay, maybe I'm trying to bring logic to 'GREM DHARK!' But, I'm interested to hear your views. The Imperial Guard has always been 'my' army and favorite, but one thing in their fluff bugs me. So, if you'll allow me:
The fluff states that the.Imperial Guard are numberless mass of soldiers recruited from a million plus worlds, and that each planet has its own traditions and fighting style, and that once recruited, a Guardsman will never see his/her home again, and that most Guardsmen's life expectancy is something daft, like, six weeks.
I get that the Guard are meant to be a trillion, trillion strong mass of flesh that's just meant to be thrown at enemies until they go away, but that confuses me. Okay, 'the Guard' are a hoard, but individual regiments are not. So, let's say we take a Regiment from World A and send them to war somewhere. After that, what happens, does that Regiment just fight there until it either dies or wins? If it wins why can't it return home? Surely garrisoning that Regiment at their home planet makes more sense, no?
I really dislike this idea that the Regiment gets raised and flung into space where it seems to just disappear. I mean, while on campaign, where's it garrisoned?
Traditions confuse me, too. If, we are to believe, a Regiment doesn't return home, how do Regimental traditions take hold. Baring in mind that Regiment 1 and Regiment 9 from World A would be seperated by 300 years and Warp distortion, AND they never return home, which means they can't pass on their tradition and experience, how can these traditions and skills take hold on a group of soldiers from a particular world?
The Baneblade novel has a Veteran Regiment return home, but that's only to get recruits and bugger off again. It's also the only reference to returning troops I can find.
Also, if the life expectancy of a Guardsman was six weeks, a Regiment would last about three months. That's just daft.
In my opinion, I would just prefer it if Regiments were garrisoned at home, and not flung to the stars and seemingly lost. Imagine a regiment from your own country. Okay, they're sent to war in some country, they could be there for ten years, but in that time they can take leave, get mail from home, receive reinforcements from home, etc., etc. After that, they return home, and if needs be, leave the service. That's how I'd like my Guard to be.
Anyone read the 'Starfist' novels? Kind of how the military are handled in them.
My view: The Imperial Guard throws women/men/tanks/stuff at enemy stuff until it is dead or until they're out of women/men/tanks/stuff to throw. Tactics are a plus but not mandatory. Remember, try not to hit your own troops with artillery fire; while the loss of life is regrettable, the waste of ammunition is intolerable.
Its not so easy. Millions of guardsmen, thousands of commanders, hundreds of tactics and styles.
IG is not only "send the next wave and drown them in our bodies", despite many SMBL tries to imply Some commanders are like Chenkov, bury them in bodies, we have more energy in lasguns than you have cannons. Some are smart tacticians like Creed. Some regiments use power of artillery, some tanks, some diversion and spec ops tactics. And usually many of different regiments is send to one war for one planet or system. It depends on regional commander etc how is whole war approached.
For troops and their home...universe is vast I guess some regiments can take a break at home, but sometimes, you just cant use your precious resources to send hundreds of thousands men home for few weeks. They must use some free world with enough resources for garrisoning such force. Thousands of systems means they really probably wont see their home. Its to complicated for logistics and resources. Its grimdark Its universe where Emperor "consumes" thousand psykers a day for being star beacon. Homesickness of your imperial sledgehammer aka IG is not case for considering.
The thing that bothers me is how much people think (thanks to the codex) that the imperial guard is all about a giant wave of humans being sent to their deaths followed by tanks.
I think of them as just like armies of the last 100 years (1914+) each one doing things its way to the best of the situation. I think of them as well like people. Each one does it differently to the way it thinks is best.
Also hearing things about how useless lasguns are annoys me too. In reality they (like any gun) would be just as deadly, except how many real world guns have 3 fire modes with power settings, no bullet drop/speed and all in one assault rifle? It should be praised!
But the life of a trooper is accepting that you are giving your life to making sure your home world is safe and knowing it exists alone is probably their source of comfort. Its not like todays militaries where the army is a job, in the imperial guard its a dedication (wilful or not) so not seeing home is something to expect.
I guess the issue i have is the generalisation that Imperial Infantry are useless and weak and the guard is all about tanks, arty and massed charges. I think it would be far more diverse and 1 imperial soldier can be just as deadly as any other soldier in the setting.
Also, if the life expectancy of a Guardsman was six weeks, a Regiment would last about three months. That's just daft.
It sounds really strange to me too. I think this applies to specific regiments during specific conflicts. Could you provide a source?
In my opinion, I would just prefer it if Regiments were garrisoned at home, and not flung to the stars and seemingly lost. Imagine a regiment from your own country. Okay, they're sent to war in some country, they could be there for ten years, but in that time they can take leave, get mail from home, receive reinforcements from home, etc., etc. After that, they return home, and if needs be, leave the service. That's how I'd like my Guard to be.
This wouldn´t make sense in the setting.
The space is vast. It takes decades or even hundreds of years going from one point to another, even using Warp travel. And the vast majority of the Imperium is somehow at "peace". A peace broken my endless rebellions and uprisings and what not, and the population of the planet sees it as a living hell, the day-to-day basis a brutal fight for survival in itself, but it is somehow "peace". Remember, this is the "most brutal regime" ever in the history of mankind.
Regiments are taken from planets without much trouble and sent to the "frontier" through a specific Warp route. It would be extremely expensive to take them back. It would be extremely expensive to send reinforcements. You would need astropaths and navigators, and they are extremely rare.
The Imperium is a brutal tyranny. They don´t care about their soldiers. When they win, they are sent to another conflict, and another, and another. Then, in some cases, just as propaganda, they are allowed to retire in a planet, ridiculously far from their home. For just one reason: it would be quite expensive to take them back. There are some exceptions, though. I think some PDF troopers and instructors are veterans from the IG, and from the same planet.
I always thought the traditions are made during the training and the time they lived before joining the army. Remember they come from the same planet.
And the get mail from home think you said is just too much. Are you talking about sending a 15000 year old relic spaceship 20 kilometers long to carry the mail or about hiring an extremely expensive mutant to send it telepatically to a place 10000 light-years away? Try to explain that to the guy from the Munitorium.
Desperate times call for desperate measures. The guardsmen sacrifice everything they are and have for the sake of their planet, and the Imperium. Throwing men after men at the enemy works, most of the time...so why should the Imperium stop doing it? Morals and the value of life mean very little when you face the horrors of the Warp and bloodthirsty xenos.
Tower75 wrote: Traditions confuse me, too. If, we are to believe, a Regiment doesn't return home, how do Regimental traditions take hold. Baring in mind that Regiment 1 and Regiment 9 from World A would be seperated by 300 years and Warp distortion, AND they never return home, which means they can't pass on their tradition and experience, how can these traditions and skills take hold on a group of soldiers from a particular world?
A lot of the things like "why don't they go home" have already been answered but I'll take this one. A regiment begins with the basic military traditions from its homeworld, since nearly every planet has a military of its own and a lot of Guard regiments are drawn from these. Just like a real-life regiment a regiment develops its own traditions over time and they'll be different from other regiments from the same world although they'll still share the basic military culture from their world.
Most of them are competent, tactics are not a ''plus'' an idiot commander will be replaced as soon as possible especially if there's no results, Chenkov is an exception thanks to contacts and relations.
You know, I'd say that, really, the Guard is one of the more consistent aspects of the fluff.
They lack regulation. But that lack of regulation is actually built into the fluff, rather than it just being a case of authors sucking at consistency.
Bobthehero wrote: Chenkov is an exception thanks to contacts and relations.
And results, heck personally I view chenkov as an exception to imperial guard rather than the rule of their commanding officers, hell the book is generally full of tacticians with Chenkov going "MOAR BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD....err Send in the next wave in the emperors name"
I think you just haven't read enough IG fluff from BL. The one I recommend about IG tradition is 'imperial glory'. The IG regiments do sometimes go back to their home world, but its usually the very last of its survivors, which are promoted to carry on the regimental tradition and to recruit new members from its home world. For the most part, the badly depleted regiments are put with one another to form a new fighting regiment. Only the vostroyans stubbornly reinforce their own regiments with new recruits from their home world.
Your imagery of how the guard should work is already done by the PDF, they secure the home world/system, the guard sometimes draft the best of the local PDF for reinforcement. On the tabletop a guardsmen may seem pathetic, comparing that to real life, he or she is like a well trained active US marine.
So, as we know, the galaxy is vast, and star travel is expensive and complicated, esp. In 'GREM DHARK!', so, surely, by that logic, it would make sense to send Regiment 1 twenty light-years from home , and ship 'em back, than to pick a random star 1000 light years forms home and fling 'em into space without so much as a packed lunch.
Here's my thinking, and this is my own Games Workshop sponsored 'make up your own mind-' fluff:
Regiment A is raised and is sent off to do war upon the people the Emprah has decreed as naughty.
This is twenty light-years from home.
War were declared and many balls were bounced. (Futurama reference)
While on campaign the Regiment is garrisoned in field garrisons or forts or camps, and these move with the tide of war, etc.
War were won
Regiment A is returned home to its home garrison where its HQ is and where it's home garrison is.
Many training days and rookie ribbing were had by all, until war were declared again.
I agree that the Guard is a 'for life job', except for officers, whom can seemingly retire, but the 'never see home' I feel is daft. If anything, I believe that the sacrifice made by Guardsmen would be on par with 'never see home', as, because of Warp travel, in which time moves in whatever way it likes, but arguably slower than normal, the returning Guardsmen would see their world change around them, families would die, society would change, and they would be very much alone.
That's your sacrifice. That, and getting a Choppa in the face.
As we said, space is vast, the Imperium is vast, that means you need to watch your resources. Why fly a Regiment 1000 light-years away, if you have three-hundred and ninety planets that are closer? To me, it doesn't' make sense.
Cadia seems to be the exemption to the M.O. of the Guard, as it 'seems' that Regiments are garrisoned and train at home and when they're sent away, they return.
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Swastakowey wrote: The thing that bothers me is how much people think (thanks to the codex) that the imperial guard is all about a giant wave of humans being sent to their deaths followed by tanks.
I think of them as just like armies of the last 100 years (1914+) each one doing things its way to the best of the situation. I think of them as well like people. Each one does it differently to the way it thinks is best.
Also hearing things about how useless lasguns are annoys me too. In reality they (like any gun) would be just as deadly, except how many real world guns have 3 fire modes with power settings, no bullet drop/speed and all in one assault rifle? It should be praised!
(...)
it would make sense to send Regiment 1 twenty light-years from home , and ship 'em back, than to pick a random star 1000 light years forms home and fling 'em into space without so much as a packed lunch.(...)
The galaxy is 100000 light-years long. "20 light years away" is "really close" for stars. Let´s say it is 1000 light years to the point where they are needed, and the travel takes just 6 years. When the battle is over, the next step is another planet, 10 light-years yet 19 years for getting there (it is not linear). Then they lose and they fall back in three years to a point 300 light-years from there. And so on.
The scale of a galactic conflict is brutal. I think they got this right. I don´t like it when some Space Marines travel in a couple of weeks to any place. Such this entry in the Codex Necron, about Kor´Sharro Khan taking a Tau ship (lacking FTL engines) then moving to Chogoris. It should have taken him 50000 years to do so.
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Swastakowey wrote: The thing that bothers me is how much people think (thanks to the codex) that the imperial guard is all about a giant wave of humans being sent to their deaths followed by tanks.
I think of them as just like armies of the last 100 years (1914+) each one doing things its way to the best of the situation. I think of them as well like people. Each one does it differently to the way it thinks is best.
Also hearing things about how useless lasguns are annoys me too. In reality they (like any gun) would be just as deadly, except how many real world guns have 3 fire modes with power settings, no bullet drop/speed and all in one assault rifle? It should be praised!
Agreed, sir. Agreed.
I agree too. Most Imperial regiments are not depicted as throwing people at the enemy like they were ants. And for the lasguns, they are stupidly powerful technology from the distant future. I really don´t get how some people compare them to assault rifles or modern stuff.
(...)
it would make sense to send Regiment 1 twenty light-years from home , and ship 'em back, than to pick a random star 1000 light years forms home and fling 'em into space without so much as a packed lunch.(...)
The galaxy is 100000 light-years long. "20 light years away" is "really close" for stars. Let´s say it is 1000 light years to the point where they are needed, and the travel takes just 6 years. When the battle is over, the next step is another planet, 10 light-years yet 19 years for getting there (it is not linear). Then they lose and they fall back in three years to a point 300 light-years from there. And so on.
The scale of a galactic conflict is brutal. I think they got this right. I don´t like it when some Space Marines travel in a couple of weeks to any place. Such this entry in the Codex Necron, about Kor´Sharro Khan taking a Tau ship (lacking FTL engines) then moving to Chogoris. It should have taken him 50000 years to do so.
That's my point, though. The Imperium is vast, and is meant to contain one million plus worlds. You use what's sensible. Six years!? Why even bother to send anyone? A war can be over and done three times over in six years. A couple of months at the most is understandable, but if it'll take you six years to get there, and I assume that's Warp time, so that probably means something silly, like, thirty-seven standard years that's pointless. That's like us sending troops to Iraq in 2003 but the first wave only hit the beach last month.
Even if it's six years standard time, we 'know' that the speed of light is 299,792,458 metres per second in a vacuum, apparently, it slows down and has a break and all that stuff too, but I'm not a science person my point is that a travel of six years would mean that conflict zone is sssooo far away, you must have someone closer in the Imperium.
And if not, well, it's lost forever. If you've got a colony that takes six years to reach from the most frontier planet, then that's over stretched and cannot be managed. That's like having your business on Mars and trying to get there on a skateboard.
Also, to manage the Imperium, wouldn't it make more sense to know where your eggs are? If the Guard are deployed 'close' to home and then garrisoned at home, then you know where they are.
If you've got a million planets, each with multiple regiments, and you just fling 'em to the stars, and bounce them from one conflict to the next, and each time it takes a decade to get there, how do you manage that?
It is not unheard of that the army sent by the Administratum arrives at the planet that asked for help 75 years after the war is finished and at a slightly different position. It is an important part of why the setting is so dark. If you are the ruler of a planet and you have got a problem, a big problem you cannot solve by yourself, and you ask for help, it will take a lot of years just to make the bureaucracy start moving. Help will arrive, if you are lucky, to save your grandchildren. And all the time the Black Ships will visit your planet, once and again, asking for the tithe, caring nothing about your problems.
Once the case is studied, it may generate a response from Terra. It takes LOTS of time, effort and money to launch an attack in the setting. But once it is launched, there is not turning back. The power of the Imperial Guard once committed is beyond imagination.
The reason they are not sent to a near sun is because the need for a massive attack may not be there. As Big Mac said, local affairs (and by local I mean a full system) are PDF business. The Guard can be seen as elite PDF that are sent from different planets without big problems to a point where the Imperium is having a crisis. PDF can be seen as your average BS2 WS2 humans, and they are more than enough for most local problems, with the help of the Arbites if needed. They seem useless because most stories start with their failure.
There is an exception for things going this slow: elite troops. Marines, Sisters or Inquisitors go faster. Many planets may ask help from a Chapter nearby. However, chapters spend many years doing nothing, just moving from one place to another. And recovering from casualties.
It is not unheard of that the army sent by the Administratum arrives at the planet that asked for help 75 years after the war is finished and at a slightly different position. It is an important part of why the setting is so dark...
Yes, I've always disliked that particular tit-bit of fluff. Also how sometimes an Expeditionary Force will arrive before the call for help is made. Oh, that sneaky Warp.
Okay, let's say that a planet's invaded by (insert Warhammer 40,000 nasty here), the Governor sends for help on day one of the invasion, brilliant. Well done that man.
The Expeditionary Force arrives 200 years later. Okay... Awesome. The planet's now 100% in enemy hands! assuming it hasn't been wiped clean of life.
The Imperium would last a week in that situation.
Ah, grim dark, we shall not trouble you with logic anymore. Go, be free.
It's on par with tanks and ships being maintained over thousands of years.
Some planets send the cream of their PDF, proud to serve the Emperor. Some hive worlds just round up a few million of the worst underhive scum they can catch and send them off to be trained on the way. Some worlds have a payment system of sorts where the troops sent to the IG either pay off family debts or garner their family benefits. Some worlds have primitives flocking to the recruitment office any time the Star Gods return to pick up new warriors for the Great Father in the Sky.
Life expectancy and retirement plans are as varied. A rich enough planet might allow survivors to return home once their tour is finished (and the replacement regiment has been raised). A hive world will say good riddance, keep them or kill them. Primitives raised to warriors of the gods might not even want to return, just keep on fighting as long as they can. And so on.
IG regiments do usually get reinforcements from their own home planets. That probably explains the traditions, as a regiment is made up of people from the same planet.
I do not think the Guard ever see their homes again, maybe with exceptions for regiments close to their homeworld or elite regiments. I can also imagine it is different depending on the regiment/homeworld. Cadians for example, are probably frequently returning home, as their planet quite often has need of them.
What you would like your Guard to be sounds a lot more like the PDF to me. They are only sent to trouble nearby (in their own system) and return home afterwards.
The Guard is more like an elite PDF for the entire universe.
Different authors approach the problem of travel differntly.
Dan Abnett writes, especially in the Sabatt Worlds Crusade fluff, that things take a few weeks or a few months in the warp. Rarely something like years for travel. Indeed, many of the characters return home to their planets. In other stories like Storm of Iron Imperial Fists are able to show up in strength in around a month from who knows where in the galaxy.
Other authors, like the rulebook, seem to portray the warp as beyond fickle with no chance of consistency in travel.
Sci-fi has laways had the problem with FTL travel as things like relativistic effects, speed of light, etc. always seem to muck up the setting once you delve too deep with logic.
For example, if warp travel takes years there is no logical way to defend a planet or prosecute a campaign due to supply problems and we know planning is not the Imperrium's strong suit.
Instead, we have the warp, which allows FTL flight with seemingly minimal relatavistic effect. The carch for the setting is that is as fickle as the author needs it to be.
As to regiments, most are reconstituted from other tattered regiments (sometimes from their original homeworld, sometimes from others) when attrition reduces them below operational effectiveness. As far as traditions, there's a distinction between regimental tradition and homeworld tradition. The traditions of the homeworld may be gradually lost, or otherwise eroded as regiments are reconstituted and as soldiers become more acclimatized to Guard life as opposed to life back home. The traditions of the regiment, however, usually consist less of cultural norms and have more to do with fighting style, nuances of religious creed and equipment loadouts. The latter generally doesn't change much.
As for the traditions thing, in a novel i read 2 regiments where jammed together to create one full regiment and they where from different worlds. People where nearly killed over the appropriate way to use cafiteria trays (or clean them cant quite remember).
But then you get merges like in gaunts ghosts where the gurilla style vervin dudes mixed perfectly with tanith light infantry style fighting. Plus both had their home worlds savaged so they mixed just fine.
tradition is one of the big things that keeps the guard working. Each regiment has a uniform to instil pride, a way of fighting for a sense of purpose and the list goes on. Nations on earth are similar. Most nations have a style of fighting they like to use and the same goes for the guard.
Swastakowey wrote: As for the traditions thing, in a novel i read 2 regiments where jammed together to create one full regiment and they where from different worlds. People where nearly killed over the appropriate way to use cafiteria trays (or clean them cant quite remember).
But then you get merges like in gaunts ghosts where the gurilla style vervin dudes mixed perfectly with tanith light infantry style fighting. Plus both had their home worlds savaged so they mixed just fine.
tradition is one of the big things that keeps the guard working. Each regiment has a uniform to instil pride, a way of fighting for a sense of purpose and the list goes on. Nations on earth are similar. Most nations have a style of fighting they like to use and the same goes for the guard.
That'll be the first Ciaphas Cain novel. They're good reads.
What you say above is true, but surely, in a world where you're drafted, or you volunteer, into a system that gives you six weeks basic, before firing you into a war 1,000,000 light years away, where you never see your home again, and where the only other regiment from your world you would meet would be separated socially from you by three-hundred years, thanks to Warp shenanigans, no 'regimental' tradition would take hold. No? Each regiment would be an individual in the hoard.
I'm not saying regiments couldn't pick up traditions while on campaign, but without a standing regimental history, built up over centuries, with a home garrison, 'regimental traditions' couldn't take hold, esp. as Regiments of Guardsmen in Warhammer 40,000 are constantly at war from the time they're raised to the time that regiment ceases to be.
Reusing the same regimental number doesn't 't count, as that's just reusing the number. The originals would all be dead and gone.
Swastakowey wrote: As for the traditions thing, in a novel i read 2 regiments where jammed together to create one full regiment and they where from different worlds. People where nearly killed over the appropriate way to use cafiteria trays (or clean them cant quite remember).
But then you get merges like in gaunts ghosts where the gurilla style vervin dudes mixed perfectly with tanith light infantry style fighting. Plus both had their home worlds savaged so they mixed just fine.
tradition is one of the big things that keeps the guard working. Each regiment has a uniform to instil pride, a way of fighting for a sense of purpose and the list goes on. Nations on earth are similar. Most nations have a style of fighting they like to use and the same goes for the guard.
That'll be the first Ciaphas Cain novel. They're good reads.
What you say above is true, but surely, in a world where you're drafted, or you volunteer, into a system that gives you six weeks basic, before firing you into a war 1,000,000 light years away, where you never see your home again, and where the only other regiment from your world you would meet would be separated socially from you by three-hundred years, thanks to Warp shenanigans, no 'regimental' tradition would take hold. No? Each regiment would be an individual in the hoard.
I'm not saying regiments couldn't pick up traditions while on campaign, but without a standing regimental history, built up over centuries, with a home garrison, 'regimental traditions' couldn't take hold, esp. as Regiments of Guardsmen in Warhammer 40,000 are constantly at war from the time they're raised to the time that regiment ceases to be.
Reusing the same regimental number doesn't 't count, as that's just reusing the number. The originals would all be dead and gone.
Has much actually changed over hundreds of years on most planets though? I think that a Mordian would talk to another Mordian and feel like they are talking to a new neighbour despite a hundred years of seperartion in time. Unless something drastic happens to change the home planet of course. Regiments may have different tradition that varry from other regiments of the same world but the basics of culture, doctrine and gear would remain the same i reckon. Thats why its easier to merge regiments of the same home world.
Tower75 wrote: What you say above is true, but surely, in a world where you're drafted, or you volunteer, into a system that gives you six weeks basic, before firing you into a war 1,000,000 light years away, where you never see your home again, and where the only other regiment from your world you would meet would be separated socially from you by three-hundred years, thanks to Warp shenanigans, no 'regimental' tradition would take hold. No? Each regiment would be an individual in the hoard.
I'm not saying regiments couldn't pick up traditions while on campaign, but without a standing regimental history, built up over centuries, with a home garrison, 'regimental traditions' couldn't take hold, esp. as Regiments of Guardsmen in Warhammer 40,000 are constantly at war from the time they're raised to the time that regiment ceases to be.
Reusing the same regimental number doesn't 't count, as that's just reusing the number. The originals would all be dead and gone.
The regiments would create their own traditions as they went along. Members of the regiment would likely stick together pretty tightly for a number of reasons. They likely all speak Low Gothic but probably feel more comfortable speaking whatever languages they spoke on their homeworld so the regiment would be a little world in and of itself. I was in a unit in the US National Guard (my little flag is French because I live in France but I lived most of my life in the US) several years ago that had just been repurposed from tanks to light cavalry. Having had spent several years in cavalry units in the Regular Army I was asked to help define what would become the unit's new traditions and from what I hear from old buddies on Facebook most of the things I helped put in place are still in place. Traditions don't necessarily require hundreds or thousands of years of history to create.
For the Guard I imagine the officers assigned to this newly raised regiment would be taught about the regiment's previous traditions, or at least as much as is known, and would work from that in instilling these things into the new regiment. This would provide a sense of structure and continuity to the new Guardsmen so I'd be surprised if this weren't a pretty standard thing on most worlds.
I always envisioned the IoM having enough battle fronts that IG regiments can simply be shuffled from one to another. I does talk about this a little in Dead Men Walking.
Eventually either reinforcements arrive or the force is too broken down to continue. I imagine the regiment gets sent to warzones, fights and when they are done fighting they either get reinforced or shipped back home depending on the costs associated (a ship has to come back to the home planet to pick up new troops anyways so why not bring the IG with).
As far as I am aware the IG do not normally garrison planets. The only planet I can think of that have IG garrisons to defend it is Cadia. The rest are just waiting to be shipped out with PDF, skiitari, etc. forces to defend them.
I would also imagine that some of the surviving veteran members of regiments are shipped back home to be trainers. The IG would definitely have massive need for experienced trainers and there is no way they are using no experience recruits to train those DKoK infantry.
There is also an interesting supply situation to IG armies. Namely that the ships are so large and the standard issue rifle doesn't require ammo so you could have a IG regiment carry enough supplies and manufacturing capacity to operate for decades.
There is also a huge difference in how the soldiers are viewed from place to place. If you told a DKoK trooper he was being sent home to retire that would be the absolute worse thing you could do to him. If you said the same thing to another trooper they would kiss you and jump for joy. Some of these factions do not consider retirement from service as a reward. Some of them have IG given special position in society, etc. For some reason I remember there being something in one of the books about a retired IG trooper on a planet being invaded who joins the PDF to train recruits...I will have to try remembering.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: My view: The Imperial Guard throws women/men/tanks/stuff at enemy stuff until it is dead or until they're out of women/men/tanks/stuff to throw. Tactics are a plus but not mandatory. Remember, try not to hit your own troops with artillery fire; while the loss of life is regrettable, the waste of ammunition is intolerable.
Pretty much this. Guard is a giant clumsy meatgrinder that wins through attrition and firepower. They suffer enormous casualties regularly. They're not elite professionals almost on par with Space Marines, as many like to characterize them.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: My view: The Imperial Guard throws women/men/tanks/stuff at enemy stuff until it is dead or until they're out of women/men/tanks/stuff to throw. Tactics are a plus but not mandatory. Remember, try not to hit your own troops with artillery fire; while the loss of life is regrettable, the waste of ammunition is intolerable.
Pretty much this. Guard is a giant clumsy meatgrinder that wins through attrition and firepower. They suffer enormous casualties regularly. They're not elite professionals almost on par with Space Marines, as many like to characterize them.
No, suffering heavy losses is due to the scale of the wars they fight in. Of course when a ship gets destoyed whilst landing troops its gonna bump up the death count hugely. Some worlds/commanders use a meat grinder tactic but not ALL OF THEM. Have you not read the battle for big toof river? how on earth are elysians meant to win by meat griner? When catachans fight in the jungle do you think they run through it in the thousands in a giant line towards the enemy? No. They arent (the word was auto changed from the bad word for handycapped) slowed.
They will use different tactics for different worlds and situations. Commanders have preferances and this will also have an effect. Otherwise whats the point in having weapon variants and vehicle variants if they are just driving forward to die? They wouldnt bother with different types of infantry roles if they all just run forward dying. They fight just like any modern military because thats how results are made.
Why would they try meat grinding orks for example? Every time orks are defeated Its because of strategic outsmarting and fire bombing and what not. There arent many examples of the imperial guard winning because they just chucked guardsmen forward. If they just used the wave tactic then they would just have the bare minimum gear and equipment. Which is far from the case.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: My view: The Imperial Guard throws women/men/tanks/stuff at enemy stuff until it is dead or until they're out of women/men/tanks/stuff to throw. Tactics are a plus but not mandatory. Remember, try not to hit your own troops with artillery fire; while the loss of life is regrettable, the waste of ammunition is intolerable.
Pretty much this. Guard is a giant clumsy meatgrinder that wins through attrition and firepower. They suffer enormous casualties regularly. They're not elite professionals almost on par with Space Marines, as many like to characterize them.
This is not entirely fair or true. Look at an Elysian or Terrax guard army and you will see an elite military force. Additionally many of the armoured battle group regiments are also fairly careful with their troop's lives. Some worlds and regiments do fight like this (Valhallan), some fight however the math gives the highest chance for success (DKoK), some fight using ambush tactics (Catachans and Tallarn), and some using lighting raids and air superiority (Elysian and Terrax). Heck some of them send cavalry with spears to the battlefield...variety is the name of the game for IG tactics and armies.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: My view: The Imperial Guard throws women/men/tanks/stuff at enemy stuff until it is dead or until they're out of women/men/tanks/stuff to throw. Tactics are a plus but not mandatory. Remember, try not to hit your own troops with artillery fire; while the loss of life is regrettable, the waste of ammunition is intolerable.
Pretty much this. Guard is a giant clumsy meatgrinder that wins through attrition and firepower. They suffer enormous casualties regularly. They're not elite professionals almost on par with Space Marines, as many like to characterize them.
This is not entirely fair or true. Look at an Elysian or Terrax guard army and you will see an elite military force. Additionally many of the armoured battle group regiments are also fairly careful with their troop's lives. Some worlds and regiments do fight like this (Valhallan), some fight however the math gives the highest chance for success (DKoK), some fight using ambush tactics (Catachans and Tallarn), and some using lighting raids and air superiority (Elysian and Terrax). Heck some of them send cavalry with spears to the battlefield...variety is the name of the game for IG tactics and armies.
I agree with ansacs. The IG have gotten a bad image of being morons when it comes to tactics which is an unfair statement. It is true in some cases, but those guys don't last very long and soon your left with either the lucky ones or the good ones. So to me the IG have for the most part have decent commanders who do have an idea of what their doing.
On the topic of space travel in 40k I thought that warp travel made journeys that would take 1000s of years and turned into months or weeks with the warp doing some strange stuff that every so often made a trip take hundreds of years or as said before get there before the threat got there. To me this is the only way they could keep the IOM together and defended. If a trip took six years even from a short distance away with warp travel than no empire save Necrons and Eldar/dark Eldar could have an empire and forget the tau having one unless everything was a few light years within reach.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: My view: The Imperial Guard throws women/men/tanks/stuff at enemy stuff until it is dead or until they're out of women/men/tanks/stuff to throw. Tactics are a plus but not mandatory. Remember, try not to hit your own troops with artillery fire; while the loss of life is regrettable, the waste of ammunition is intolerable.
Pretty much this. Guard is a giant clumsy meatgrinder that wins through attrition and firepower. They suffer enormous casualties regularly. They're not elite professionals almost on par with Space Marines, as many like to characterize them.
This is not entirely fair or true. Look at an Elysian or Terrax guard army and you will see an elite military force. Additionally many of the armoured battle group regiments are also fairly careful with their troop's lives. Some worlds and regiments do fight like this (Valhallan), some fight however the math gives the highest chance for success (DKoK), some fight using ambush tactics (Catachans and Tallarn), and some using lighting raids and air superiority (Elysian and Terrax). Heck some of them send cavalry with spears to the battlefield...variety is the name of the game for IG tactics and armies.
I agree with ansacs. The IG have gotten a bad image of being morons when it comes to tactics which is an unfair statement. It is true in some cases, but those guys don't last very long and soon your left with either the lucky ones or the good ones. So to me the IG have for the most part have decent commanders who do have an idea of what their doing.
On the topic of space travel in 40k I thought that warp travel made journeys that would take 1000s of years and turned into months or weeks with the warp doing some strange stuff that every so often made a trip take hundreds of years or as said before get there before the threat got there. To me this is the only way they could keep the IOM together and defended. If a trip took six years even from a short distance away with warp travel than no empire save Necrons and Eldar/dark Eldar could have an empire and forget the tau having one unless everything was a few light years within reach.
I pretend the WARP doesnt exist
Im know nothing about the warp (i have selective fluff syndrome) but from what i recently learnt it can work both ways.
The IoM is a lot like the British empire in my estimation. Even the fastest response could take a year to get to some places but once they do it is an overwhelming response fueled by a massive empire. And every now and then some part decides to go their own way
Unfortunately for those splinter groups there is no France to play against Britain...I guess perhaps the Tau are the closest thing.
Pretty much this. Guard is a giant clumsy meatgrinder that wins through attrition and firepower. They suffer enormous casualties regularly. They're not elite professionals almost on par with Space Marines, as many like to characterize them.
I beg to differ, but I have already said my part. Just I think that any comparison with SM in general is destined to be doomed. Are they professionals? Of course. They are closer to professional army than religious knight orders which Space Marines chapters(!) are. Are they elite? Some of them are, some are footsloggers, some are pilots, some tankist...well, what is elite? Can they stand face to face with SM, one on one? Nope. Well, with luck one guardsman can take almost anybody but we are talking about fethton of luck But can organized force of IG defeat SM or prove to be more useful? Of course...but it already depends on huge number of things like battlefield, forces, leaders etc etc.
So, I would hide any generalizing...especially in case of military sci-fi which is essentially based on notion that nothing is dealt before the fight itself
P.S. Yeah, I guess my english is mess in such huge paragraph. Sorry...
There is no way to describe the Imperial Guard 'machine'. From one planet, you will receive an army of brutish warriors all wielding swords, axes, and maces, all smelly and furs lavishly over their form of such barbaric origin lasgun in other hand blindly firing at the foe before meeting them head on with primitive weapons and the butt of the gun. Elsewhere, a small regiment of men that can barely wield a weapon being raised from a planet of scholars. From another, you will gain crazed religious nut jobs that know how to use a gun but charge forth to martyr. Elsewhere, you get a well oiled army such as DKoK that are fatalistic and prone to suicidal charges And then... then you have elite, competent armies that are entirely based about minimal loss and survival. Armies that give a damn using a combination of artillery and tanks as well as air support and orbital bombardment to allow heavy gun guardsman to position for suppression fire to allow for ambushes and overwhelming charges. In other words, a million different regiments with just as many different ways of fighting . The problem is, we often see them from the SM point of view. Think of it this way... read a SM book. Notice how inept guardsman look, how foolish and weak sisters are, and how fragile and dumb chaos forces are even when under Tzeentch many a time. Simply put, plot armour is projected over the main charaters and they are provided with god powers whilst the allies and foes are crushed into inept fools. To be honest, when guardsman are the focus, they also have a few books that does this to marines and enemy forces. Are they almost on par with Marines? Depends. Are we talking a one on one basis. Of course not! That would be nonsense! Buuuutttt.... guardsman are equal to marines in many ways and are more importantly far more vital to the survival of the Imperium. If SM were to all wither away, the Imperium wouldn't practically immediately lose. If guardsman were lost though, GG.
Onto the OP's questions.
How do they operate? Depends. Lots of higher up officials have to plan it out, found regiments, send other regiments to battle there. It can take months to have it all prepared. Guardsman will actually sometimes see their homes again. I'd argue most wouldn't, but for the "lucky" few... they would. Cadians swap out to give them some good ol' combat training and a successful regiment might be permitted to return home to defend it or just end in peace. It is more likely that they will either be grinded into nothing, absorbed into another regiment, or be permitted to colonize a new planet though. Regiment traditions are built within regiments that likely send a few emmisiaries back to home. Letters, diaries, journals, the short time return to be reloaded or extra troops on rare occassions. Annuals of history by some other planets that relay the information or somenonsense. Who knows entirely just blabbering some possibilities. Actually, yeah I think I'm going to add to my head cannon that, if there isn't anything big for them to do, they will either be shifted to guard some planet or returned back home to stand guard and wait.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: My view: The Imperial Guard throws women/men/tanks/stuff at enemy stuff until it is dead or until they're out of women/men/tanks/stuff to throw. Tactics are a plus but not mandatory. Remember, try not to hit your own troops with artillery fire; while the loss of life is regrettable, the waste of ammunition is intolerable.
Pretty much this. Guard is a giant clumsy meatgrinder that wins through attrition and firepower. They suffer enormous casualties regularly. They're not elite professionals almost on par with Space Marines, as many like to characterize them.
Read the short story Stormlord by Guy Haley. Some decent IG tactics are used there. Actually, read any IG books written by that guy. He 'gets it.'
StarTrotter wrote:
Onto the OP's questions.
How do they operate? Depends. Lots of higher up officials have to plan it out, found regiments, send other regiments to battle there. It can take months to have it all prepared. Guardsman will actually sometimes see their homes again. I'd argue most wouldn't, but for the "lucky" few... they would. Cadians swap out to give them some good ol' combat training and a successful regiment might be permitted to return home to defend it or just end in peace. It is more likely that they will either be grinded into nothing, absorbed into another regiment, or be permitted to colonize a new planet though. Regiment traditions are built within regiments that likely send a few emmisiaries back to home. Letters, diaries, journals, the short time return to be reloaded or extra troops on rare occassions. Annuals of history by some other planets that relay the information or somenonsense. Who knows entirely just blabbering some possibilities. Actually, yeah I think I'm going to add to my head cannon that, if there isn't anything big for them to do, they will either be shifted to guard some planet or returned back home to stand guard and wait.
A good view there. I like what what you said there.
See, that's my main issue with the fluff. The IoM has sood for 10,000 years, mainly defended by IG, there's not enough SMs to do that, they're meant to be shock troops anyway, but, here's the 'huh factor'. If the fluff states that a Guard regiment is raised, doesn't matter from what world, or what its fighting technique is, and then launched into space, where due to Warp shenanigans it takes years, or decades, or doesn't take any time at all to get to their combat zone(pick your author), and while fighting that regiment never gets reinforced, only merged with other regiments, and never gets a break, only shuffled from war to war, and never gets to return home so that the veterans can train rookies, and in fact, that regiment never gets to train, only 'learn on the job', the Imperium would last a month!
You can't defend something, and he'll, you can't collect tithes or supply the 'machine' if it takes (insert Warp shenanigans here) time to get anywhere.
it's just a big ol' bag of impractical grim darkness that wouldn't work. But, then again, it's grim dark, that's the point.
Sergeant: Sir! Sir! Sir! The attack's over, sir! The Orcs are retreating!
Ainsworth: Oh, jolly good. Mhm.
Sergeant: Quite a lot of casualties, though, sir.
Ainsworth: M-hmm.
Sergeant: 'C' division wiped out. Signal 's gone, thirty men killed in 'F' Section...
Ainsworth: Yes. I see. Hmm.
Sergeant: I should think about a hundred-- hundred and fifty men altogether, sir.
Ainsworth: Jolly good. *sniffs*
Sergeant: I haven't got the final figures, sir, but there's a lot of seriously wounded in the compound.
Ainsworth: Yes. Well, the thing is, Sergeant, I've got a bit of a problem here. One of the officers ... has lost a leg.
Sergeant: Oh, no, sir! -- paraphrased from Monty Python's Meaning of Life
My interpretation of the Imperial Guard? Mhm, let's see ... as with the remainder of my opinion on the setting, it is influenced mostly by GW core studio material, meaning the rulebooks and codices. I know there are less grimdark versions in some of the licensed sources, but my interest in 40k is founded in the dystopian atmosphere that is one of the few "unique" aspects of this setting as opposed to the more practical militaries of various other franchises that, for the most part, look alike with very few distinguishing features of their own. In a way, one could say 40k's focus on low tech (or technological decline) and the negligible value of a single human life are what give this franchise its character, and I just couldn't appreciate it the same way if such an important piece of the puzzle would be removed, much like I believe in the other pieces having to "fit in" with the rest for everything to successfully emanate this peculiar style.
But, to delve deeper into what I actually mean with "my interpretation" - when I look at the Imperial Guard, I do not primarily think of contemporary militaries and modern tactics, I think of a mixture between the Roman Legions and the armies of the Napoleonic Wars. Regiments are raised on their homeworld and imbued with the tradition of that planet's PDF, then shipped off to wage war on distant worlds many light years away. Depending on the means of recruitment and the homeworld's tech level, the only training with modern equipment (like lasguns) the individual trooper may receive is what he or she is taught whilst their transport is in transit through the Immaterium, en route to the warzone where the regiment will be deployed. If the regiment survives its first deployment, it is simply kept in active service and shipped to the next warzone, for the Imperium is rarely short on opportunities for martyrdom. Should a regiment actually manage to remain active for 20 years (during which the only reinforcements it may have received were survivors from other depleted regiments), it is allowed to garrison a newly conquered world, the remaining soldiers ultimately settling down akin to the Roman Legionaries of old whilst the officers become the new noble class of this world. The regiments also have little to no logistics capabilities, relying on the Navy for supply drops or requisitioning whatever they need from the locals, much like it worked for real life armies during previous centuries.
The officers themselves tend to be recruited from the original planet's ruling class, often sons and daughters of lesser nobles who have no qualms throwing away the lives of their soldiers for a fancy new medal to bring honour to their families' names, although a planet's culture may just as well see gang bosses (Savlars) or tribal warlords (Asgardians) gain a position of leadership, and in some few cases the officers may even be promoted from the lower ranks (Cadians), all with different effects on how the regiment performs in practice. It is this motley collection of only rudimentarily connected military doctrines, with the humble lasgun being the only truly standard piece of equipment, that gives the Guard its character, and which almost guarantee that anyone would be able to find a subjectively cool regiment they can identify with due to some aspect of its background and/or style.
From the faceless trench-fighters of Krieg to the women warriors of Xenan VII - the Imperial Guard can cater to anyone, as long as they are not opposed to the idea of quantity over quality. And ultimately, the fact that the individual Guardsman is so much more replaceable than a Space Marine or a Battle Sister makes their service and sacrifice all the more meaningful. The less enhancements, upgrades, indoctrination, training and advanced wargear you give someone, the more "human" they remain (a rare thing in 40k), and the more brave they need to be to hold the line in the face of mutant uprisings and alien invasion.
Now for some quotes!
Tower75 wrote:Also, if the life expectancy of a Guardsman was six weeks, a Regiment would last about three months. That's just daft.
Or you simply interpret this average as some regiments being destroyed during their very first deployment, whilst others remain active for many years. Rather fitting, especially when some regiments are conscripted from inexperienced farmhands, or even raised without modern weaponry at all due to the Munitorum failing to redirect the necessary materiel in time.
That being said, I don't recall this six weeks expectancy from any GW core studio source. Novel fluff? Forge World?
Swastakowey wrote:Also hearing things about how useless lasguns are annoys me too.
I really think this is mainly a result of community hearsay (similar to 8m+ Marines or the "everything is canon" myth), likely influenced by various novels featuring protagonists being protected by plot armour fighting against lasgun-wielding opponents. In several rulesets (40kTT, Inquisitor) as well as Codex fluff, the standard lasgun is capable of punching through even Marine armour, injuring the occupant with a single shot.
Of course, the "weak lasguns" interpretation is just as valid as GW's original material - but I think it's a bit saddening how the licensed material's (mainly various novels, I reckon) focus on Space Marines seems to have made every other army look weaker in the eyes of the fandom, just because one version of the fluff is being pushed more often than another, and it unfortunately being a version that tends to have a clear protagonist rather than attempting a more balanced approach like the ruleset that treats everyone the same way.
As I already mentioned above, an individual life is worth very little in my understanding of 40k, and this is in good part because all the guns are so terrifyingly powerful that they can easily extinguish one even when precautions (such as wearing body armour) have been taken. Technology > Life is another aspect of the setting's dystopian atmosphere.
da001 wrote:The space is vast. It takes decades or even hundreds of years going from one point to another, even using Warp travel.
I think Warp travel times seem to have been exaggerated somewhat by outsourced fluff, much like it has affected the perception of the lasgun.
"Ten thousand light years can be traversed within 10-40 days by warp-capable spacecraft. By the time ships have been moved into position, munitions collected and troops assembled, the response time over this distance is in the order of between 30 and 120 days, typically about 75 days. This is the standard response time for the raising of Imperial Guard armies, though for prolonged conflicts troops may be brought in from much further away." - 2E C:IG
Sounds much more reasonable for at least having a chance to respond to an invasion, no?
Note that I still agree with your assessment regarding return travel or even mail - not because it takes months for a ship to make that tour, but simply because these ships are incredibly huge with a crew of thousands, and the troops just aren't important enough to warrant this kind of investment in resources (fuel, supplies) and fleet assets (ships) from the Navy or the few available contracted providers. Another piece of the puzzle.
Tower75 wrote:As we said, space is vast, the Imperium is vast, that means you need to watch your resources. Why fly a Regiment 1000 light-years away, if you have three-hundred and ninety planets that are closer? To me, it doesn't' make sense. [...] If you've got a million planets, each with multiple regiments, and you just fling 'em to the stars, and bounce them from one conflict to the next, and each time it takes a decade to get there, how do you manage that?
Maybe that's the point of 'GHREM DHARK!'
Now you're getting it.
And ultimately, all those faraway warzones have more need of these troops than the 390 closer planets that are currently at peace. In a pinch, the Imperium can always raise more regiments either by expanding the recruitment zone or raising the tithe, because life is cheap. Experienced regiments that have already received all the necessary equipment are a more reliable resource for the Munitorum than a fresh draft.
Iron_Captain wrote:IG regiments do usually get reinforcements from their own home planets. That probably explains the traditions, as a regiment is made up of people from the same planet.
Just to provide the original material's take on this subject - it is considered normal that veteran regiments are made up of the remains of several understrength regiments that have been merged into one, which is why you may even have soldiers in a regiment wearing different uniforms. Whenever possible the Munitorum attempts to merge regiments of the same type or even from the same homeworld, but this really depends on the availability and proximity of available forces.
Fun fact: The Codex IG army list actually portrays such mixed regiments because it is meant to be applied to any regiment you could think of. Codex Eye of Terra on the other hand featured a different army list for Cadian regiments that were "not yet diluted by prolonged off-world campaigns", as the source put it. The Cadians got some bonus due to stronger homeworld identity (every soldier in the unit was born and raised on Cadia rather than also including children fathered during a campaign, or survivors from other regiments), whilst on the flipside missing out on various assets the main army list had gained from non-Cadian reinforcements (for example, a "pure" Cadian regiment does not contain any abhumans such as Ogryns).
ansacs wrote:As far as I am aware the IG do not normally garrison planets. The only planet I can think of that have IG garrisons to defend it is Cadia. The rest are just waiting to be shipped out with PDF, skiitari, etc. forces to defend them.
This is my understanding as well. Defending a planet is mainly the job of a Planetary Defence Force (duh) which every single Imperial world is supposed to maintain by Imperial Decree (see 5E C:IG). The Imperial Guard, instead, is (usually) a unit of PDF turned into an expeditionary force that is sacrificed to the Imperial cause by sending these men and women out into the dark and horrible blackness of space to fight and die on some faraway world just so the Imperium - and with it their homeworld - endures another day.
That is their job. To hold the line.
Tower75 wrote:You can't defend something, and he'll, you can't collect tithes or supply the 'machine' if it takes (insert Warp shenanigans here) time to get anywhere.
Exactly. Which is why I don't subscribe to the "it takes a hundred years to get to X" idea that seems to have taken root in some sources.
Its funny you mention Krieg and ''only trained in ships during transition''
Considering that the fluff (mostly FW stuff, but considering how small the DKoK blurb is in the Codex, I think its alright to use that) mentions that they're trained dang near from birth or that they already had X regiments equipped and trained after the Loyalists won the civil war.
As we know, Games Workshop and Black Library's canon and fluff has been written, rewritten, agreed upon, argued against, and interpreted again and again. Basically, it's a mess! And on top of that, Games Workshop has always encouraged fans to 'make their own mind up' about fluff.
It's because everyone has their own view of a perfect 40k setting, so it's nice to have enough uncertainty to let every player live in their own perfect universe
Okay, maybe I'm trying to bring logic to 'GREM DHARK!' But, I'm interested to hear your views. The Imperial Guard has always been 'my' army and favorite, but one thing in their fluff bugs me. So, if you'll allow me:
The fluff states that the.Imperial Guard are numberless mass of soldiers recruited from a million plus worlds, and that each planet has its own traditions and fighting style, and that once recruited, a Guardsman will never see his/her home again, and that most Guardsmen's life expectancy is something daft, like, six weeks.
Well, not quite. Each planet has a separate culture (Feral savages, hiveworlders, deathworlders, warrior cultures etc), and thus each regiment raised form them has a different persona. An IG will typically spend about 3-6 months in transit, being taught how to be a guard, and if they're put into a large battle, they can last anything from 5 seconds (the opening volley) to decades. Average life expectancy quotations for IG are pure procrastination, given how many IG are out there, making a true estimate impossible. Though, going by TT standard, 1-3 scenes of combat is sufficient to give each man a death.
Many IG cannot return home due to logistical issues, though some do retire and get given leave.
I get that the Guard are meant to be a trillion, trillion strong mass of flesh that's just meant to be thrown at enemies until they go away, but that confuses me. Okay, 'the Guard' are a hoard, but individual regiments are not. So, let's say we take a Regiment from World A and send them to war somewhere. After that, what happens, does that Regiment just fight there until it either dies or wins?
Yes. It's logistically impractical to give tours of service like do IRL.
If it wins why can't it return home? Surely garrisoning that Regiment at their home planet makes more sense, no?
The IOM just spent 3-6 months of transit and a good fleet of spacecraft to get those IG to war, they're not about to make a return trip while the IOM still has enemies. Many IG regiments are garrisoned, but they have to call for reinforcements for alien/heretic threats that are to large for them, and that causes displaced forces.
I really dislike this idea that the Regiment gets raised and flung into space where it seems to just disappear. I mean, while on campaign, where's it garrisoned?
Usually on a world near the warzone, a ship in orbit, or the warzone itself.
Traditions confuse me, too. If, we are to believe, a Regiment doesn't return home, how do Regimental traditions take hold. Baring in mind that Regiment 1 and Regiment 9 from World A would be seperated by 300 years and Warp distortion, AND they never return home, which means they can't pass on their tradition and experience, how can these traditions and skills take hold on a group of soldiers from a particular world?
The IOM tries to group similar regiments together, both to help keep track of what exactly they're sending around the galaxy, and to not have the awkward case of a puritanical warrior culture regiment meeting a platoon of Ogryns. This means that the 293rd Landsharks will keep getting smooshed together with other Landsharks, allowing for tradition. That, and the commanders of each regiment tend to stick around.
Traditions are also passed down through a planet's culture, so the regiments (even 300 years down the line) can end up being almost exactly the same.
The Baneblade novel has a Veteran Regiment return home, but that's only to get recruits and bugger off again. It's also the only reference to returning troops I can find.
Because usually that planet will already have a garrison, and if they're not fighting anything off, they don't ned the surplus men, so the IOM has the regiment stop off for a refuel, reload and regroup, and then sends them to the nearest call to arms.
In my opinion, I would just prefer it if Regiments were garrisoned at home, and not flung to the stars and seemingly lost. Imagine a regiment from your own country. Okay, they're sent to war in some country, they could be there for ten years, but in that time they can take leave, get mail from home, receive reinforcements from home, etc., etc. After that, they return home, and if needs be, leave the service. That's how I'd like my Guard to be.
Some IG forces are like that, but only the ones who weren't called out to half the galaxy away to fight on a planet who's garrison was overpowered. Usually, by the time an IG regiment has spent 10 years fighting, they're either:
-Too far from home for the IOM to even bother sending them back
-Too few in number to bother with, and get sandwiched into another battlegroup (and moved with them instead)
-Too horribly changed to be safe around normal humans (and will probably spill the beans about the horrors of the galaxy)
-Been called out to another warzone that needs help
-Or they're dead.
Well, my view is that the IG and the IOM is too large to see the military operate anywhere near as smoothly as they do in modern earth. Sometimes things just get too large-scale for return trips.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ansacs wrote: The IoM is a lot like the British empire in my estimation. Even the fastest response could take a year to get to some places but once they do it is an overwhelming response fueled by a massive empire. And every now and then some part decides to go their own way
Unfortunately for those splinter groups there is no France to play against Britain...I guess perhaps the Tau are the closest thing.
Bobthehero wrote:Its funny you mention Krieg and ''only trained in ships during transition''
Not really. I said "depending on the manner of recruitment" and "the only training a trooper MAY receive".
Do you consider the DKoK as a standard, or rather an exception from the rule? That's what it comes down to. I'm sure some people like to see the Imperial Guard as a whole as a much more professional organisation, yet in my opinion as formed by the studio material, the degree of professionalism depends entirely on which world a regiment was recruited from, with less trained regiments being far more common simply because the "source planet" isn't such an extreme like Krieg where an entire world seems to exist for the sole purpose of providing grunts for the grinder. No, when thinking of the average Imperial world, I'm thinking backwater Agriworlds, gang-dominated Hives, and feral tribes on untamed plains. That is where the Guard draws most of its troops from, not Cadia, not Krieg. But just like with any faction's background, we mostly hear about the famous regiments and legendary victories. You could say that the individual "poster boy" regiments like the Cadian Shock Troops are about as representative for the Guard as the Ultramarines are for SM, which is why I prefer looking at the more general background that is not bound to any particular fighting formation.
But again: Matter of preferences.
Selym wrote:Like a hammer! One where the wooden handle has rotted slightly, and the head is constantly missing the nail, and hitting the thumb instead.
Well put. Have an exalt as well!
I guess we have similar views; I see my interpretation reflected in your post.
Tower75 wrote: The fluff states that the.Imperial Guard are numberless mass of soldiers recruited from a million plus worlds, and that each planet has its own traditions and fighting style, and that once recruited, a Guardsman will never see his/her home again, and that most Guardsmen's life expectancy is something daft, like, six weeks.
I think the fluff actually states that most will never see their homes again, but some do. The six week life expectancy isn't that daft though, its actually surprisingly long. There have been times in actual human history where the life expectancy of a newly deployed troop was much shorter than that. During WW2 the average life expectancy of a freshly trained RAF pilot during the Battle of Britain was less than two weeks. The USAF calculated the life expectancy of A-10 pilots deployed to western europe in the event of a ww3 scenario to be less than 2 weeks. Life expectancy of a US Army/Marine Corps Lieutenant in combat during Vietnam was calculated at 16 minutes, etc. etc. At various times during both World Wars the life expectancy of a soldier in whatever army was measured in minutes, hours, or days.
Keep in mind the measure of life expectancy starts at the moment that you enter a combat situation, and "resets" when you leave it. So in the case of the US LT's in 'Nam above, every time they went out on patrol (for example) it was assumed they would survive approximately 16 minutes. The clock reset the moment that patrol is ended, so its hardly daft, if anything its too damned long.
I get that the Guard are meant to be a trillion, trillion strong mass of flesh that's just meant to be thrown at enemies until they go away, but that confuses me. Okay, 'the Guard' are a hoard, but individual regiments are not. So, let's say we take a Regiment from World A and send them to war somewhere. After that, what happens, does that Regiment just fight there until it either dies or wins? If it wins why can't it return home? Surely garrisoning that Regiment at their home planet makes more sense, no?
I've read before that Imperial Guard units are given settlement rights, either following something like 20 successful campaigns, or in some instances just after one campaign under certain conditions. In other words, your reward for retiring from the Guard (if you survive) is to be given property.
Traditions confuse me, too. If, we are to believe, a Regiment doesn't return home, how do Regimental traditions take hold. Baring in mind that Regiment 1 and Regiment 9 from World A would be seperated by 300 years and Warp distortion, AND they never return home, which means they can't pass on their tradition and experience, how can these traditions and skills take hold on a group of soldiers from a particular world?
You're confusing a few things. First, again, its not that once in the Guard you never return home, its just that you usually don't (because you're dead by the time the opportunity comes around again). The regiment itself, as an entity, survives by reinforcement in the field. So if Regiment 1 and Regiment 9 are out there, unless they are completely destroyed, they will continue to be reinforced until such time that the Regiment returns home, that is how the traditions take hold. Also keep in mind that officers are a bit different in that sense, as there are examples in the fluff of officers being transferred from unit to unit, etc. And since they are usually from the nobility, they usually will be able to return home.
Also, if the life expectancy of a Guardsman was six weeks, a Regiment would last about three months. That's just daft.
Again, you're not measuring it as 6 weeks from departure, its 6 weeks from entering a combat situation, which might only last 1 week or it might last 12. And again, they are reinforced in the field, sometimes by those from their homeworld, sometimes from another world entirely, sometimes by merging 2 existing under-strength regiments into a new one.
In my opinion, I would just prefer it if Regiments were garrisoned at home, and not flung to the stars and seemingly lost. Imagine a regiment from your own country. Okay, they're sent to war in some country, they could be there for ten years, but in that time they can take leave, get mail from home, receive reinforcements from home, etc., etc. After that, they return home, and if needs be, leave the service. That's how I'd like my Guard to be.
Thats more or less how it works in the fluff...
Reusing the same regimental number doesn't 't count, as that's just reusing the number. The originals would all be dead and gone.
Not entirely true, the US military has disbanded and reconstituted various units throughout its history, often times when it was only "just a number". The newly activated unit will usually take the nickname and mottos, etc. of the previous unit (which is most of the tradition you have to worry about). Sometimes the traditions of the unit prior to stand-down are preserved in documentation, and these are re-instated, sometimes new traditions are created based on events in the units past.
Also keep in mind, that a unit being "destroyed" doesn't mean every last man, woman, and child and every last piece of equipment is lost. Destroyed means that the unit is reduced below its useful fighting strength and no longer capable of sustaining combat operations. So a destroyed regiment will usually return home to rebuild itself. There might only be a couple hundreds left out of the initial thousands, ten thousands, or hundred thousands, but a few survivors is all you need to pass on the legacy to a new unit.
I don't think due credit is being given to the abilities of regiments drawn from the less developed worlds, worlds like Tanith and Catachan to name some famous examples. These regiments have talents of their own that can far surpass those of other, more trained, better equipped, and more professional regiments. The environment and culture of any planet offers something to the capabilities of its guardsmen. The regiments of the Imperial Guard are all equivalent due to this. All regiments have their strengths, weaknesses and different methods of fighting a war.
chaos0xomega wrote:Keep in mind the measure of life expectancy starts at the moment that you enter a combat situation, and "resets" when you leave it.
That ... doesn't add up. What kind of A-10 mission is supposed to take two weeks?
I've always understood life expectancy to be applied to 1 Tour of Duty - the time from entering and leaving a warzone. For example, in the case of the Vietnam War, it was 12 months or so?
chaos0xomega wrote:So if Regiment 1 and Regiment 9 are out there, unless they are completely destroyed, they will continue to be reinforced until such time that the Regiment returns home, that is how the traditions take hold
Aside from my personal preference of the studio fluff, I don't see why a regiment would need to "return home" to pass on a tradition. Looking at the various regiments we have, their traditions exist because of the world the troops were mustered on, not from what they learned or adopted during battle.
The Catachan Jungle Fighters are expert guerilla because that's the only way to survive on Catachan.
The Valhallan Ice Warriors are good against Orcs because Valhalla was invaded by Orcs and the hatred stuck.
The Elysian Drop Troops are good at boarding actions because that's what they do in their home system.
The Mordian Iron Guard has impeccable discipline because that's what allowed their world to survive a Chaos invasion.
The Savlar Chem Dogs are cunning killers because they're a bunch of criminals hailing from a really bleak penal colony.
In fact, if newly raised regiments would depend on troops "returning home", that tradition would be sullied by mergers with units from entirely different world, not to mention any weird habits they might have taken up on their campaigns, be it due to interaction with locals or something special that happened in a battle.
Bobthehero wrote:Exception, obviously, but its the standard the Guard should be aiming for
Also keep in mind, that a unit being "destroyed" doesn't mean every last man, woman, and child and every last piece of equipment is lost. Destroyed means that the unit is reduced below its useful fighting strength and no longer capable of sustaining combat operations. So a destroyed regiment will usually return home to rebuild itself. There might only be a couple hundreds left out of the initial thousands, ten thousands, or hundred thousands, but a few survivors is all you need to pass on the legacy to a new unit.
Not in the IG. It's too wasteful in time and resources to send a unit back to its homeworld to reinforce.
If you had a mechanized infantry regiment... let's call it the Montrean 33rd... that was reduced to 20% of its fighting strength... and a light infantry regiment, let's call it the Valdean Light Rifles.... that was reduced to 10% of its fighting strength. And one combat engineering battalion that doesn't have many troops but its got a lot of armor... and after one big scrap with some Orks is down to 30% of its original strength... let's call it the Trinickeldi 555th Regiment.
You take these regiments, regardless of their planets of origin, and smash them all together and give them a new name in your current theater of operations. So now we have the MontValTri 33/555 Light Rifles. It's a mechanized infantry regiment with a bevvy of Rhinos, Chimeras and Gorgons.
chaos0xomega wrote:Keep in mind the measure of life expectancy starts at the moment that you enter a combat situation, and "resets" when you leave it.
That ... doesn't add up. What kind of A-10 mission is supposed to take two weeks?
I've always understood life expectancy to be applied to 1 Tour of Duty - the time from entering and leaving a warzone. For example, in the case of the Vietnam War, it was 12 months or so?
Nope it adds up perfectly, they were to be employed from forward operating bases very close to the front lines generating 4 sorties per day per pilot, so you are in the AO 24/7 over that 2 week period. They calculated out losses per sortie, etc. and the entire force of approx. 700 planes was calculated to be lost in that 2 week period, meaning approx. 700 dead, wounded, or captured pilots. And yes and no, tour of duty isn't quite the same, because during that tour of duty (especially in Veitnam, not quite as familiar with it today) you could be cycled in and out of the AO/combat zones, and usually that was the case with patrols (as I understand it) as many of them started in areas outside of a designated combat zone, and you only "entered" the AO after getting a couple miles out of the gate. Really what it comes down to is semantics and definition.
The Catachan Jungle Fighters are expert guerilla because that's the only way to survive on Catachan.
The Valhallan Ice Warriors are good against Orcs because Valhalla was invaded by Orcs and the hatred stuck.
The Elysian Drop Troops are good at boarding actions because that's what they do in their home system.
The Mordian Iron Guard has impeccable discipline because that's what allowed their world to survive a Chaos invasion.
The Savlar Chem Dogs are cunning killers because they're a bunch of criminals hailing from a really bleak penal colony.
Thats not tradition, thats specialization.
Not in the IG. It's too wasteful in time and resources to send a unit back to its homeworld to reinforce.
If you had a mechanized infantry regiment... let's call it the Montrean 33rd... that was reduced to 20% of its fighting strength... and a light infantry regiment, let's call it the Valdean Light Rifles.... that was reduced to 10% of its fighting strength. And one combat engineering battalion that doesn't have many troops but its got a lot of armor... and after one big scrap with some Orks is down to 30% of its original strength... let's call it the Trinickeldi 555th Regiment.
You take these regiments, regardless of their planets of origin, and smash them all together and give them a new name in your current theater of operations. So now we have the MontValTri 33/555 Light Rifles. It's a mechanized infantry regiment with a bevvy of Rhinos, Chimeras and Gorgons.
Thats a very sweeping generalization to make, yes that does happen, but there are examples in the fluff of the survivors being sent back to their homeworld to reinforce. I forget if its in the codex or one of the Forgeworld books, but theres a blurb that talks specifically about how some regiments of particular fame have been in continuous service for millenia because they are a point of pride for their homeworlds because of some honor won in a past war, etc. and that they are reformed whenever they are destroyed.
That's the homeworld getting a note from the Departmento Munitorum saying "this unit suffered 100% casualties last week. Send us another one." and the planet raises another Regiment, tacks on the honors and distinctions of its last incarnation, and ships them out.
Two things I would like to add into Lynata's overview.
The IG is supposed to be the cream of the crop as compared to the PDF. So theoretically they should be noticeably better soldiers than a PDF force. This may not be true in some places due to dirty politicians, etc. but is an overall maxim.
The DKoK at the very least have regimental banners and artifacts them return to Krieg and pass down. I doubt many DKoK troopers return but those that do probably only do so to train a new regiment and go back out again.
Yeah, there are actually a lot of parallels to the British empire. Even the variety of forces (look at some of their armies; Indian, British, American, African, and Australian regiments...that is some fair variety) and the idea of expeditionary forces versus garrison forces. Even the travel times of 2-4 months to get anywhere are very 1700 century.
Why would the PDF suck compared to the imperial guard? Wouldnt it make sense for them to have the same training and gear? If anything the only thing the PDF will lack is experience, but so do fresh Imperial Regiments?
Also its tradition not specialization. All the forces on that planet follow the tradition of training and the honour of taking on that planets traditional wargear. They specialize in something because of their tradition.
And the mashing of other worlds together happens as rarely as possible to avoid clashes in tradition. It does happen but it is avoided whenever possible.
To me it seems interesting but its almost like for every situation the imperial guard need to overcome, there is a planet who's tradition gives it the skill to over come it. Another reason they try avoid merging troops. Because they will water down this specialization to the point they start becoming ineffective.
Also the life expectancy is far far too broad to be of any value. So many variations id dismiss it as GW trying to make it more grim without giving it much thought.
I think starship troopers is a good example of how an imperial guard regiment would behave. At first they suffer big time (both navy and infantry) but they develop tactics and ideas and as reinforcements start to come in the older veterans start to teach them and lead them and so on. But even then they still have huge casualty rates but they arent just being sent in a meat grinder all day every day till they are dead. But it can give you an idea also of how a planet could view life in the military and so on.
Also even things as little as uniform need to replaced ad i doubt there is a giant factory that spews out uniforms for all the regiments so its possible there are dedicated fleets that go round gathering reinforcements and gear for the regiments of a campaign. Otherwise moral will start to go down as they cant wear their traditional uniforms and their gear starts to suffer.
I think if you view the way the imperial guard works as more of a well planned and thought out machine with unpredictable execution (due to warp and so on) then it can make sense why soldiers can see their home again for example: A campaign in a certain area would probably draw troops from the surrounding planets. This makes sense. Obviously they might take from further planets too but this becomes the exception if anything.
Of course there are some bad eggs in the imperial guard but they will be weeded out unless tradition keeps them there.
Reinforcements are mentioned a few times above, and as much I want 'my' Guard to receive reinforcements from home, I thought fluff stated that regiments aren't reinforced, just smashed into other regiments.
Of course, this entire thread could be voided when the new IG Codex comes out and the fluff gets refluffed.
da001 wrote:The space is vast. It takes decades or even hundreds of years going from one point to another, even using Warp travel.
I think Warp travel times seem to have been exaggerated somewhat by outsourced fluff, much like it has affected the perception of the lasgun.
"Ten thousand light years can be traversed within 10-40 days by warp-capable spacecraft. By the time ships have been moved into position, munitions collected and troops assembled, the response time over this distance is in the order of between 30 and 120 days, typically about 75 days. This is the standard response time for the raising of Imperial Guard armies, though for prolonged conflicts troops may be brought in from much further away." - 2E C:IG
Sounds much more reasonable for at least having a chance to respond to an invasion, no?
Note that I still agree with your assessment regarding return travel or even mail - not because it takes months for a ship to make that tour, but simply because these ships are incredibly huge with a crew of thousands, and the troops just aren't important enough to warrant this kind of investment in resources (fuel, supplies) and fleet assets (ships) from the Navy or the few available contracted providers. Another piece of the puzzle.
Didn´t know that quote. Interesting.
I wonder where did I get the impression that it took years to go from one place to another...
I would just like to point out that if a Regiment is whipped out, the homeworld is notified and the colors are remade with the Regiment being deployed during the next tithe cycle for when the IoM comes knocking. No regiment is permanently gone unless the homeworld is. A fine example from the codex is shown during the Valhallan's section (Probably because Chenkov caused it ).
Also even things as little as uniform need to replaced ad i doubt there is a giant factory that spews out uniforms for all the regiments so its possible there are dedicated fleets that go round gathering reinforcements and gear for the regiments of a campaign. Otherwise moral will start to go down as they cant wear their traditional uniforms and their gear starts to suffer.
There are huge textile manufactorums on worlds that produce clothing. Why would not one (or ten) of these be dedicated to churning out some sort of generic IG uniform? After all, the three pairs of socks, two sets of boxers and two uniforms you shipped out with from your homeworld aren't going to last forever.
Uniforms are very important for militarism. Very important. You cant just take away the National uniform and give them bland bits and pieces. The imperium puts a lot of effort into the moral of soldiers and uniforms are one of them.
The imperium puts a lot of effort into the moral of soldiers and uniforms are one of them.
You must be kidding.
Their efforts towards morale are "if you look like you might run away, the man in the tall hat is going to shoot you".
Hardly. Why do they bother giving them alcohol for example. Everybody knows fear doesn't work for long if at all. Its only done in harsh situations where it's absolutely necessary. Why resort to temporary methods when you can use those as a last resort? Fear doesn't work and it would be unreasonable to think that's how they deal with moral all the time.
The DM doesn't "give" them alcohol. Soldiers make that for themselves in barracks distilleries or other scratch-built devices.
Citizens looking to make a buck might form bands of "followers", as has been the case of militaries on the march since before the birth of Christ, that will run speak-easies or gambling dens or stores or prostitution rings or any one of a thousand other services that the "enlisted man" needs or wants, but the military does not fulfill.
The absolute lowest-price resource in the Imperium is manpower.
Psienesis wrote: The DM doesn't "give" them alcohol. Soldiers make that for themselves in barracks distilleries or other scratch-built devices.
Citizens looking to make a buck might form bands of "followers", as has been the case of militaries on the march since before the birth of Christ, that will run speak-easies or gambling dens or stores or prostitution rings or any one of a thousand other services that the "enlisted man" needs or wants, but the military does not fulfill.
The absolute lowest-price resource in the Imperium is manpower.
Doesnt mean they use fear to keep people in check 100% of the time. Commissars are taught to keep a blind eye to things for the purpose of moral. The priests offer consultation and emotional help. If they relied on fear people would not fight. Look at france in ww1, The soviets in the second world war had to ease up on the harsh punishments of their own men because it wasnt working. It would not be possible for people to put up with being shot for every little problem. For every man killed means another has to be brought down to replace it. Commissars are free to choose how to deal with a situation because they know killing people doesnt work.
The commissar section even says they must earn the loyalties of their troops to (in regards to the more savage ones too) to have any success on the field. However for hive worlds with huge crime rates and so on, fear and punishment is necessary more so.
A commissar cant stop an army, another army has to be brought in to stop an army. So why give an army a reason to rebel? They dont treat their men like dirt. Unless of course they deserve it.
And from what i have read amasec is widely available for the imperial guard without punishment. They also have brothels on space ships whilst on transit too. A lot of effort is put into the moral of troops. As in any military. Without good moral troops are doomed for failure.
And sometimes they do treat their men like dirt. Why? Because if they rebel, where are they going to go?
And from what i have read amasec is widely available for the imperial guard without punishment. They also have brothels on space ships whilst on transit too. A lot of effort is put into the moral of troops. As in any military. Without good moral troops are doomed for failure.
That's the civilian camp-followers I mentioned. Detailed greatly in the Gaunt's Ghosts novels. That's not the DM supplying the soldiers, that's the local commanders not doing anything about something that isn't too big a problem (until it becomes one, like the bar aboard the ship that tries to kill Harker, Luud and a few other Ghosts.... and gets taken down by Naval Security.) The amasec being supplied there is of civilian manufacture or it's being served at Officer's Mess, which is, as the name implies, not open to enlisted soldiers. You don't get to eat with the brass if you're not wearing brass yourself, and they always eat better than you do.
chaos0xomega wrote:Nope it adds up perfectly, they were to be employed from forward operating bases very close to the front lines generating 4 sorties per day per pilot, so you are in the AO 24/7 over that 2 week period.
Ah, see, now we're at "Area of Operation" rather than single missions like a patrol. Yes, it does come down to semantics and definition, but they make an important difference here, because just like sorties can be flown out of the AO, so could patrols be deployed for persistent frontline action. Or Guard regiments.
Given that GW is a British company, and that there's a whole lot of references to the UK's martial past, could this be the origin?
It'd certainly help to know the full quote and the source of this supposed six weeks expectancy, though...
chaos0xomega wrote:Thats not tradition, thats specialization.
I was referring more to what's attached to that specialisation, which I think is a major part of a regiment's tradition.
Ultimately it comes down to the question of whether or not you believe that the regiment already had a tradition before it was converted from PDF to IG. Why should PDF formations not have their own tradition already, which would then be carried on by the newly-made Guard regiment? Even if a regiment would be recruited out of some tribesmen (Asgardians) or a gang (Necromunda), they'd have the traditions of the tribe or their gang - or any other affiliation they held before. The degree of professional militarism obviously depends on how much of a military they were before.
Swastakowey wrote:Why would the PDF suck compared to the imperial guard? Wouldnt it make sense for them to have the same training and gear? If anything the only thing the PDF will lack is experience, but so do fresh Imperial Regiments?
I'd say it's a case-by-case thing. Some planets have a professional military PDF like Cadia's Interior Guard (which even includes IG regiments cycled back in from offworld duty - the only example, and perhaps the only case of regiments returning back home), or Mordia and Valhalla, but for others the "PDF" may just be a loose connection of warlord forces and militias.
Still, I think the PDF gets treated unfairly in the minds of a lot of people (I'm sure this too is the fault of various novels, though partially there's also bound to be a lot of studio fluff that sees the PDF lose badly just because unlike all the other factions they are the ones who must always be there if some world gets invaded by an outer space horror), and if the Guard is usually recruited out of the ranks of the PDF, then arguably the difference cannot be too big.
The 5E Guard Codex actually specifically addresses this - it's as if the writers at GW themselves have noticed that there's bit of a misconception in the fandom they want to address:
"Imperial Guardsmen outrank their counterparts who serve in the fighting forces of their home world; indeed, many veterans look down on regiments whose only duty is to defend their own planet. These forces are perceived by some Guardsmen as having little combat experience. This is, of course, far from the truth, as the Imperium of Man is beset on all fronts. Relentless raids of pirates and encroachments by aliens are continually opposed by every planet's own military forces. Standing firm in the face of brutal horrors, these brave soldiers fight and die just as well as their comrades in the Imperial Guard, but without the glories and honours won on distant worlds." - 5E C:IG
Tower75 wrote:Reinforcements are mentioned a few times above, and as much I want 'my' Guard to receive reinforcements from home, I thought fluff stated that regiments aren't reinforced, just smashed into other regiments.
Of course, this entire thread could be voided when the new IG Codex comes out and the fluff gets refluffed.
I wouldn't bet on it - the fluff in GW's own books has been surprisingly consistent since 2E, at least moreso than is generally believed. Most contradictions are the results of various licensed products.
That being said, those deviant interpretations - including your own ideas! - are just as valid as the Codex fluff, so there's no reason why you could not simply make something up that suits you?
da001 wrote:Didn´t know that quote. Interesting.
I wonder where did I get the impression that it took years to go from one place to another...
I'm betting a novel, or a FW book, or perhaps FFG's Rogue Trader RPG?
The more writers you have working on a franchise, the more different visions you'll eventually end up with - at least if you don't have a canon policy like Battletech or Star Wars, and GW seems to embrace the overlapping interpretations as part of their "everything and nothing is true" deal that treats all sources as if they were compromised by historical revisionism, propaganda and myth.
The thing that bugs me most about the Imperial Guard fluff is the lack of reserve troopers. You hear about a regiment getting pummeled into dust and then having the remnants of it be distributed into other regiments.
Is there no supply chain? In real life, reserves and replacement troopers are drawn up from their countries, and then attached to a regiment as attrition wears them down. The Imperial Guard's mode of operation means that a regiment has a life expectancy of one or two campaigns, until attrition and casualties effectively make them cease to exist.
Arcsquad12 wrote:Is there no supply chain? In real life, reserves and replacement troopers are drawn up from their countries, and then attached to a regiment as attrition wears them down. The Imperial Guard's mode of operation means that a regiment has a life expectancy of one or two campaigns, until attrition and casualties effectively make them cease to exist.
"It's not a bug, it's a feature!" (of the setting, in this case)
The supply chain is a one-way thing, with the Munitorum only being concerned about hauling stuff to the front as quickly as possible. Troops are always raised as regiments because they're more useful this way and can be deployed as independent fighting formations, integrated into an Army Group, or used to reinforce an understrength regiment with a massive injection of numbers all at once - although the Munitorum generally prefers merging two understrength regiments to gain a new one as this doesn't mess with their sacred doctrine of combat efficiency standards (-> this is what results in some regiments being raised with thousands, and others being raised with tens of thousands of troops, depending on their estimated combat capability as influenced by prior training and equipment level).
Also, I think there's a whole lot of campaigns where the Imperial Guard really just steamrolls its enemy with minimal casualties, for example when subduing a minor uprising, or when fighting tribal warriors. As per the Index Astartes, just one regiment of Cadian Shock Troops was sufficient to eradicate every single barbarian tribe on the Sons of Malice's former homeworld after the Chapter fled into exile. Lasguns >>> axes and bows
Not particularly when your battle front is 1-3 months of travel to reach. When you send off these reserve forces the situation could shift drastically and the regiment they were meant to join could be obliterated. Therefore an easier answer is to send a new regiment and combine whatever existing regiments at the battlefront.
ansacs wrote: Not particularly when your battle front is 1-3 months of travel to reach. When you send off these reserve forces the situation could shift drastically and the regiment they were meant to join could be obliterated. Therefore an easier answer is to send a new regiment and combine whatever existing regiments at the battlefront.
That and the fact it's easier for the IOM to calculate in bulk than in individual numbers.
They probably just calculate forces as "Operational" and "Non-Operational" strength, and mash together any "Non-Operationals" to form an "Operational" and then ship it to a battle.
Arcsquad12 wrote: The thing that bugs me most about the Imperial Guard fluff is the lack of reserve troopers. You hear about a regiment getting pummeled into dust and then having the remnants of it be distributed into other regiments.
Is there no supply chain? In real life, reserves and replacement troopers are drawn up from their countries, and then attached to a regiment as attrition wears them down. The Imperial Guard's mode of operation means that a regiment has a life expectancy of one or two campaigns, until attrition and casualties effectively make them cease to exist.
The Mordian guard reinforces their numbers with local PDF forces when able to do so.
Its specifically mentioned in the novel Iron Guard and the end of the novel they recruit some of the people they saved in the mordian Iron Guard.
Which makes sense with the ''reliability'' of warp travel as it is regiments are going to try an reinforce their troops with local forces.
And here's the crazy thing about Warhammer 40,000 fluff. When you have this 'everything is true and false-' style method of fluffiness, and every author, be it Codexes or Black Library, puts their own spin on the subject, you get this: a big ol' bag o' crazy.
Let's face it, all we need is for one author to write a Black Library novel saying 'the Imperial Guard do this...' and 'poof', we have more 'official' fluff.
Well, the First and Only ended up recruiting a bunch of people from Vervunhive after they saved it. Although by the time that fight was over, there wasn't much of a hive left for the people to live in (it was actually seen as a gift from the Imperium to let them join the Tanith because those people no longer had anywhere to live).
If you need reinforcements in the form of human bodies, you need reinforcements in the form of human bodies. I don't see what the big deal is, here. It's not like these are mutants or xenos they're recruiting.
TiamatRoar wrote: Well, the First and Only ended up recruiting a bunch of people from Vervunhive after they saved it. Although by the time that fight was over, there wasn't much of a hive left for the people to live in (it was actually seen as a gift from the Imperium to let them join the Tanith because those people no longer had anywhere to live).
If you need reinforcements in the form of human bodies, you need reinforcements in the form of human bodies. I don't see what the big deal is, here. It's not like these are mutants or xenos they're recruiting.
They could be closet heretics, but that's a story for the Inquisitor to hear.
That's the homeworld getting a note from the Departmento Munitorum saying "this unit suffered 100% casualties last week. Send us another one." and the planet raises another Regiment, tacks on the honors and distinctions of its last incarnation, and ships them out.
I specifically avoided use of the word "reform" for that exact reason, it gives the impression that you're starting from scratch, when in reality, reforming a unit in military parlance just means its being built back to fighting strength, and 100% casualties are a very rare occurrence since usually a unit is effectively removed from fighting via attrition at a much lower incidence of casualties, and when I say 'removed' I don't mean withdrawn, I mean they cease functioning as command, logistics, communication, and cohesion break down rendering them incapable of operating at any capacity and get 'left behind'.
In any case, contrary to popular belief the definition of casualty isn't actually dead...
Also its tradition not specialization. All the forces on that planet follow the tradition of training and the honour of taking on that planets traditional wargear. They specialize in something because of their tradition.
Wrong. Tradition does not equate to specialization. Tradition refers to customs and beliefs, not tactics and doctrine. Tradition is things like unit nicknames, mottos, histories, sayings, etc. Marines saying "Semper Fi" "Oorah" and invoking Chesty Puller are tradition, assaulting a beachhead is a mission.
Reinforcements are mentioned a few times above, and as much I want 'my' Guard to receive reinforcements from home, I thought fluff stated that regiments aren't reinforced, just smashed into other regiments.
Not always, I think the fluff states that they try to reinforce units from their homeworld whenever possible, but often that isn't an option due to the situation.
Its specifically mentioned in the novel Iron Guard and the end of the novel they recruit some of the people they saved in the mordian Iron Guard.
Which makes sense with the ''reliability'' of warp travel as it is regiments are going to try an reinforce their troops with local forces.
That may be... but these FNGs aren't Mordians. They did not grow up on Mordian. They did not train like the Mordians trained. They did not live as the Mordians lived. How can they call themselves "Mordian Iron Guard" if they have never been on Mordian or ever had to take the part of its Iron Guard?
Hodgepodge of different tactics, cultures, and methods, with each regiment being its own unique army. They range from bury them with bodies to emulating astartes and using deepstrikes. Anything an everything. In desperate situations, you might even find a guardsmen regiment using pointy sticks.
LightKing wrote: doesn't Caliban produce the best guards of the whole imperium
I doubt it given that the majority of Caliban as a planet was destroyed during Luther's betrayal of the Dark Angels and what was left was made into the fortress monastery called The Rock. So...there's no guard regiments raised there, don't know what you're talking about.
Methinks you should read up on your fluff a bit more before commenting randomly in the background section.
Its specifically mentioned in the novel Iron Guard and the end of the novel they recruit some of the people they saved in the mordian Iron Guard.
Which makes sense with the ''reliability'' of warp travel as it is regiments are going to try an reinforce their troops with local forces.
That may be... but these FNGs aren't Mordians. They did not grow up on Mordian. They did not train like the Mordians trained. They did not live as the Mordians lived. How can they call themselves "Mordian Iron Guard" if they have never been on Mordian or ever had to take the part of its Iron Guard?
They where inducted in the Molrdian iron guard thus making them iron guard. Which is logical reinforcements from Mordian may take years to arrive if they arrive. to keep a unit up to battle strength local forces would have to be inducted.
RIght... but you do understand how the Mordian Iron Guard comes to be, right? As in, you do understand conditions of life on Mordian that temper a person into the sort of soldier worthy of the name "Iron Guard"?
This is like repopulating a Great Company with some Space Marines from another Chapter. Sure, they're Space Marines... but they're not from Fenris. They're not Space Wolves.
Psienesis wrote: RIght... but you do understand how the Mordian Iron Guard comes to be, right? As in, you do understand conditions of life on Mordian that temper a person into the sort of soldier worthy of the name "Iron Guard"?
This is like repopulating a Great Company with some Space Marines from another Chapter. Sure, they're Space Marines... but they're not from Fenris. They're not Space Wolves.
Well. Not really.
The way I look at it, regiments are named after where they are first formed, and maintain their name as a fighting unit even after a total swapout of men. I think, however, that the Administratum would take into account of the fact that they're no longer fully Iron Guard, and mark them as such, so that a commander who needs a particular skill set is aware that they're not really getting Iron Guard.
That, and the new guys would get trained up to standard.
Psienesis wrote: RIght... but you do understand how the Mordian Iron Guard comes to be, right? As in, you do understand conditions of life on Mordian that temper a person into the sort of soldier worthy of the name "Iron Guard"?
This is like repopulating a Great Company with some Space Marines from another Chapter. Sure, they're Space Marines... but they're not from Fenris. They're not Space Wolves.
Yes i understand how the Mordian guard comes to be that still does not negate the fact that understrength units in the field have to be brought up to battle strength quickly and that reinforcements from Mordian may take years to arrive. And the conditions of Mordian are not unique in the empire.
Are local replacements Mordians no are they able to be trained well enough to replace fallen Mordians in the field yes.
And space marines are a bad counter example as you are also dealing with issues like gene seed ect.
What I'm reading out of these posts is that perhaps there was a slight misunderstanding here? What would make sense and actually be compatible to Codex fluff would be that, no, the Mordian Iron Guard does not recruit individual casualty replacements out of some locals they happen to come across. However, any IG regiment, including the Mordians, may get merged with another regiment if they are seriously understrength - and this other regiment could indeed be locally raised PDF. Just like with what I had mentioned earlier about the C:IG army list not being representative of a true Cadian regiment but able to represent one that had been "reinforced" by other troops. And just like with the C:IG army list compared to the C:EoT Cadians, such an "impure" Mordian regiment might lose a bit of the edge that a "proper" Mordian unit would have, because the troops from the unit they got merged with lack their intense drill and discipline, and it is nigh-impossible to train them up to quite the same degree (especially once they are already committed to a warzone).
And I have a feeling that this might be what happened in that Iron Guard novel?
Well, either that, or the author just didn't care what the Codex says.
Yes i understand how the Mordian guard comes to be that still does not negate the fact that understrength units in the field have to be brought up to battle strength quickly and that reinforcements from Mordian may take years to arrive. And the conditions of Mordian are not unique in the empire.
Unique? Maybe not. But special enough to make an IG Regiment famed across the Imperium for its discipline and its drill.
Are local replacements Mordians no are they able to be trained well enough to replace fallen Mordians in the field yes.
I would counter that it is impossible to train them to be that good, because it is impossible to replicate the conditions under which the Mordian Iron Guard are trained.
This is like claiming that a PDF regiment that is raised on Paradiso V can be merged with the Catachan Jungle Fighters and trained to be "just as good" as the Catachan natives. That's preposterous.
And space marines are a bad counter example as you are also dealing with issues like gene seed ect.
Yes i understand how the Mordian guard comes to be that still does not negate the fact that understrength units in the field have to be brought up to battle strength quickly and that reinforcements from Mordian may take years to arrive. And the conditions of Mordian are not unique in the empire.
Unique? Maybe not. But special enough to make an IG Regiment famed across the Imperium for its discipline and its drill.
Are local replacements Mordians no are they able to be trained well enough to replace fallen Mordians in the field yes.
I would counter that it is impossible to train them to be that good, because it is impossible to replicate the conditions under which the Mordian Iron Guard are trained.
This is like claiming that a PDF regiment that is raised on Paradiso V can be merged with the Catachan Jungle Fighters and trained to be "just as good" as the Catachan natives. That's preposterous.
And space marines are a bad counter example as you are also dealing with issues like gene seed ect.
That's why it's an analogy.
Catachans are Jungle fighting specialists hailing from a jungle death world so no you cannot simply merge them with soldiers from other forces.
The have specialized skills which cannot be ''trained''
Mordian iron guard however great they are do not have specialized unique skills which cannot be be trained into non mordian troops discipline and drill are things that can be learned non mordian recruits could be trained well enough to at least be passabble replacements for troops lost in battle.
@godking: Please use commas, it makes sentences much easier to read.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry, but this is how I'd correct it as an example. It's that I had to read the last sentence several times before my brain worked out what it said (may be more my problem than yours).
Catachans are Jungle fighting specialists hailing from a jungle death world, so no you cannot simply merge them with soldiers from other forces.
The have specialized skills which cannot be ''trained''.
Mordian iron guard, however great they are, do not have specialized unique skills which cannot be be trained into non-Mordian troops. Discipline and drill are things that can be learned, and non-Mordian recruits could be trained well enough to at least be passable replacements for troops lost in battle.
Mordian iron guard however great they are do not have specialized unique skills which cannot be be trained into non mordian troops discipline and drill are things that can be learned non mordian recruits could be trained well enough to at least be passabble replacements for troops lost in battle.
Ah, ok.... you actually don't know anything about the Mordian Iron Guard. That explains a lot.
The Mordian Iron Guard are legendary for their discipline under fire and their iron-strong adherence to orders. They follow their orders to the letter and without a moment's hesitation. They are excellent sharpshooters, using precise fire and iron resolve to destroy the enemies of the Emperor.
They fight in their dress uniforms, as "the bright colors and elaborate decoration on Mordian uniforms often mislead their enemies into thinking they are facing ceremonial troops with little combat experience, though this misapprehension is usually corrected as soon as they attempt to advance in the face of the Iron Guards' precise volleys and unyielding resolve." If you're bringing people in from somewhere else they don't have this uniform to wear.
It should also be noted "even in the face of the overwhelming daemonic hordes of Chaos, Iron Guard regiments will stand their ground, striking down their foe with disciplined fire; if forced to withdraw their lines will never break." Why GW did not give them Fearless or Iron Discipline or... something to represent this is anyone's guess. So I would not take their lack of SR on the table-top to represent that this unit is not just as special as the Catachan (just in a different manner).
Some interesting discussions here. On the traditions side of things, remember that while members of the regiment might never go home, news of their exploits is likely to. Tradition can be built at home regarding mentions in dispatches and heroic actions that are astropathed back to their homeworld. Also mail could go either way, it just might take a long time to get there being passed from ship to ship that might be going in roughly the right direction.
Mordian iron guard however great they are do not have specialized unique skills which cannot be be trained into non mordian troops discipline and drill are things that can be learned non mordian recruits could be trained well enough to at least be passabble replacements for troops lost in battle.
Ah, ok.... you actually don't know anything about the Mordian Iron Guard. That explains a lot.
The Mordian Iron Guard are legendary for their discipline under fire and their iron-strong adherence to orders. They follow their orders to the letter and without a moment's hesitation. They are excellent sharpshooters, using precise fire and iron resolve to destroy the enemies of the Emperor.
They fight in their dress uniforms, as "the bright colors and elaborate decoration on Mordian uniforms often mislead their enemies into thinking they are facing ceremonial troops with little combat experience, though this misapprehension is usually corrected as soon as they attempt to advance in the face of the Iron Guards' precise volleys and unyielding resolve." If you're bringing people in from somewhere else they don't have this uniform to wear.
It should also be noted "even in the face of the overwhelming daemonic hordes of Chaos, Iron Guard regiments will stand their ground, striking down their foe with disciplined fire; if forced to withdraw their lines will never break." Why GW did not give them Fearless or Iron Discipline or... something to represent this is anyone's guess. So I would not take their lack of SR on the table-top to represent that this unit is not just as special as the Catachan (just in a different manner).
I know about the Mordians they are good but they do not have specialized skills that cannot be trained only a special mindset.
Iron discipline and resolve can be trained and non mordian recuits can at the very least be trained to hold the line .
I just reread iron guard the replacements for Mordians where not simply anyone with a heartbeat.
The sergeant who scouted out the replacements from the local pdf specifically looked for those who could handle the rigors of life in the mordian iron guard he took two members from the local pdf.
Before that there was one non mordian in the squad a guy named Okre from a destroyed agri world.
at the end of the novel the few remaining civilian survivors get pressganged into the mordian 114th when the mordians are extracted from the planet.
So, the Mordian Iron Guard are essentially Preatorians. Or, Praetorians are the same as Mordians.
Either way, they sound like the same regiment. Just depends whether you want a Franco-Prussian War German regiment, or a British Zulu redcoat regiment.
Tower75 wrote: So, the Mordian Iron Guard are essentially Preatorians. Or, Praetorians are the same as Mordians.
Either way, they sound like the same regiment. Just depends whether you want a Franco-Prussian War German regiment, or a British Zulu redcoat regiment.
Yep the original models even had the same bodies haha. But the fluff is pretty much the same. Mordians came first so Praetorians are the copy. I just make up my own stuff for mine to avoid that.
Its specifically mentioned in the novel Iron Guard and the end of the novel they recruit some of the people they saved in the mordian Iron Guard.
Which makes sense with the ''reliability'' of warp travel as it is regiments are going to try an reinforce their troops with local forces.
That may be... but these FNGs aren't Mordians. They did not grow up on Mordian. They did not train like the Mordians trained. They did not live as the Mordians lived. How can they call themselves "Mordian Iron Guard" if they have never been on Mordian or ever had to take the part of its Iron Guard?
How can the Balladon call themselves "Tantith 1st and Only" if they aren't from Tanish, did not grow up on Mordian, did not train like the Tanith trained, and did not live as the Tanish lived?
Psienesis wrote: The Mordian Iron Guard are legendary for their discipline under fire and their iron-strong adherence to orders. They follow their orders to the letter and without a moment's hesitation. They are excellent sharpshooters, using precise fire and iron resolve to destroy the enemies of the Emperor.
They fight in their dress uniforms, as "the bright colors and elaborate decoration on Mordian uniforms often mislead their enemies into thinking they are facing ceremonial troops with little combat experience, though this misapprehension is usually corrected as soon as they attempt to advance in the face of the Iron Guards' precise volleys and unyielding resolve." If you're bringing people in from somewhere else they don't have this uniform to wear.
It should also be noted "even in the face of the overwhelming daemonic hordes of Chaos, Iron Guard regiments will stand their ground, striking down their foe with disciplined fire; if forced to withdraw their lines will never break." Why GW did not give them Fearless or Iron Discipline or... something to represent this is anyone's guess. So I would not take their lack of SR on the table-top to represent that this unit is not just as special as the Catachan (just in a different manner).
Unless every man on Moridia (or whatever planet the Iron Guard hail from) is born standing at attention in neatly pressed uniform, waiting to shoot the nearest alien, they learned how to do that.
Therefore, other humans can learn this too.
It is also possible to make new uniforms (if it weren't the Iron Guard would quickly have to learn how to fight naked after a few days of combat...).
Selym wrote:Unless every man on Moridia (or whatever planet the Iron Guard hail from) is born standing at attention in neatly pressed uniform, waiting to shoot the nearest alien, they learned how to do that.
Therefore, other humans can learn this too.
I believe the thing is that you can't just expect some random recruits to develop the same kind of discipline and resolve that it took the Mordians many years to learn in just a few weeks or months.
You will ultimately end up with half-adapted squaddies that are running a risk of breaking the line or just not hitting anything because they're too scared to shoot straight at that horde of rampaging Orks, daemons, or other horrors of the 41st millennium.
"Whilst lesser men fled in terror before the might of Chaos, the Iron Guard stood their ground, pouring volley after volley into the enemy ranks." - 2E C:IG
It's kind of like the line battles of the Napoleonic Wars, where morale was also critical to prevent a formation from breaking. Just that in 40k these guys are not just fighting other fancy-dressed humans with hilariously inaccurate muskets, but Chaos Space Marines and assorted aliens.
Note, I'm not discounting the possibility that they'd still merge the regiment with other non-Mordian troops, as that is often the only way to bring a unit back up to strength. But as far as I'm interpreting the material, it will affect its performance.
Selym wrote:It is also possible to make new uniforms
If one were to go by Codex fluff, that's not something that happens in 40k.
It should also be noted "even in the face of the overwhelming daemonic hordes of Chaos, Iron Guard regiments will stand their ground, striking down their foe with disciplined fire; if forced to withdraw their lines will never break." Why GW did not give them Fearless or Iron Discipline or... something to represent this is anyone's guess. So I would not take their lack of SR on the table-top to represent that this unit is not just as special as the Catachan (just in a different manner).
If necrons don't get fearless, then humans certainly shouldn't.
Selym wrote:Which codex?
It'd make sense if the IG wore PA, but they're basically just wearing recoloured trousers and t-shirts. How hard can it be?
"Long wars lead to high rates of atttrition of both men and their equipment, so that regiments gradually lose their distinctive appearance as their original gear wears out and is replaced. Regiments that have been in the field for several years may bear little resemblance to the units which left their home worlds. Replacement clothing may not match their original uniforms, or it may have been adapted from that of other regiments. Improvisation to suit the local conditions will undoubtedly change the appearance of units, especially if the battle zone is radically different in climare or bio-type to the regiment's home world." - 2E C:IG
I imagine this is the result of how the regiments are used - supplies from their original homeworld are out of the question due to the insular nature of how IG regiments operate as a result of sheer distance, and they generally don't spend enough time in environments capable of supplying them with custom-made gear. So they "take what they can get", so to say.
Psienesis wrote:It should also be noted "even in the face of the overwhelming daemonic hordes of Chaos, Iron Guard regiments will stand their ground, striking down their foe with disciplined fire; if forced to withdraw their lines will never break." Why GW did not give them Fearless or Iron Discipline or... something to represent this is anyone's guess.
Maybe because, as I mentioned earlier, the Codex army list is supposed to represent a "worn down" regiment that has merged with other units in an effort to be applicable to the wide range of regimental options you could play - just like the main Codex list is missing the special rules for the Cadians, whilst allowing them to take stuff a "pure" Cadian unit would lack. And didn't Catachans had some special rules in their own Codex, too? If the Mordians were to get their own unique army list to represent a "pure" Mordian regiment, it's possible they would get some perk to reflect their background...
On a sidenote, whilst browsing my books, I found a cool "letter to home" in the 3E Codex! I think it gives a good impression of life in the Guard - with a few interesting bits of fluff regarding travel times and training.
"Well, we're finally here. Zaro's World. From when I left the farm, it's been about three months, though it's hard to tell, what with travelling on a starship and everything. I took about two weeks to get the regiment mustered and then we had to wait another week after that for the Navy to arrive with the transports. That's when we all swore our oaths to the Almighty Emperor, to protect mankind and defeat our enemies. I don't know how many of us are in the regiment, but it took us two whole days to shuttle us up, with two hundred men to a shuttle, one every hour or so. Once we were on board, they split us up into training groups and gave out weapons and other kit. I've got my standard issue lasgun, made in the factories on Last Reach, but some of the lads from A Company have got a batch of lasguns from elsewhere. I think someone mentioned Triplex Phall. Anyway, the guns are the same, but different as well. You can strip them down and clean them just the same, but their guns have a metal stock, ours is wooden, theirs have got this fancy pistol grip, ours just got a stubby handle. I guess it's because there's not much but wood on Last Reach, so the factories have to make do with what they can get. Anyway, whatever they look like, they work the same way - point them at the enemy and pull the trigger!
Our ship was the Pride of Laurence, and to be honest I didn't enjoy the journey that much. I shared a bunkroom with the rest of my platoon, fifty of us in all, though of course the Lieutenant was with the other officers on another part of the ship. It was cramped and after a hard day's training it was a bit smelly. Not like the fresh air you're still enjoying! They worked us really hard. Marching drill before breakfast, then more drill and an hour on the firing ranges. The afternoon was hand-to-hand combat and wilderness survival. Of course, we've all been saying our prayers regularly, too, with a proper service at the end of the day before lights out. The chapel on board the Laurence is bigger than the one at Homeward. I've never heard so many people singing hymns at once. It's really stirring to know that I'm part of the whole thing.
It took about two months, I reckon, to get from Last Reach to here, and then another two days of shuttling down. I was worried [REDACTED] said we might have to drop in right at the front line, but in the end we landed in a town where the main base is, south of the mountains here. As we got off the lighters (that's what the Navy calls shuttles sometimes) another regiment was getting on. I managed to talk to some of them and they said they'd been fighting on Zaro's World for almost ten years! Those Orks don't give up easily by all accounts. We were their replacements. Apparently, they're allowed to go off and join one of the crusades. They even get to settle a whole new world if they conquer one. Can you imagine that, being able to start your own settlement? I hope we do well enough to get a similar reward - perhaps it'll be called Damek's World or Damek's Landing, that would be funny!
The men leaving were from Lorentian IV and, from what they said, that's a lot closer to Zaro's World than Last Reach. The Lieutenant explained that the longer the war goes on, the further and further away from the world they have to go to get new recruits. Apparently, it's a hive world where there are huge cities full of millions of people in a really small space [REDACTED]. The Lorentians told me that they weren't the first here either, so this war is probably older than you are! I could tell they were glad to be offworld soon, there were only about six shuttles worth of them left. Still, the men I was talking to were proud to have fought the Orks, protecting the people of Zaro's World from the alien scum. When we marched through the town, I don't remember its name, there were people cheering us and everything, as if we'd already won the war! We all enjoyed that, and it's good to know that I'm going to fight for the Emperor. It was a bit strange, us marching one way with our new red uniforms and shining buttons and freshly-painted tanks, while the Lorentians marched the other way, wearing muddy brown overalls with bits of bushes and other camo stuck to them. One of them joked about the 'Before and After' posters you get at chapels, the ones that show the man full of sin before confessional and then free and glad once he's paid his penance at the scourging rack.
Well, drums are sounding the Company muster so I'd better get going now, unless I want a quick turn at cleaning the privies or even end up with a few strips off my back. I hope you get this letter, and remember to help Uncle Maximillian when the Grox-cull season starts. You know his back isn't as strong as it used to be. Take care of everyone for me, little brother, and keep me in your prayers at night. I miss the farm, but I'm glad I'm here now, doing something for the Emperor and the people of Zaro's World. Keep up the hunting practice, and maybe when you're older you'll be able to join up too! I'm proud of you, be proud of me!
Selym wrote:Which codex?
It'd make sense if the IG wore PA, but they're basically just wearing recoloured trousers and t-shirts. How hard can it be?
"Long wars lead to high rates of atttrition of both men and their equipment, so that regiments gradually lose their distinctive appearance as their original gear wears out and is replaced. Regiments that have been in the field for several years may bear little resemblance to the units which left their home worlds. Replacement clothing may not match their original uniforms, or it may have been adapted from that of other regiments. Improvisation to suit the local conditions will undoubtedly change the appearance of units, especially if the battle zone is radically different in climare or bio-type to the regiment's home world." - 2E C:IG
I imagine this is the result of how the regiments are used - supplies from their original homeworld are out of the question due to the insular nature of how IG regiments operate as a result of sheer distance, and they generally don't spend enough time in environments capable of supplying them with custom-made gear. So they "take what they can get", so to say.
On a sidenote, whilst browsing my books, I found a cool "letter to home" in the 3E Codex! I think it gives a good impression of life in the Guard - with a few interesting bits of fluff regarding travel times and training.
"Well, we're finally here. Zaro's World. From when I left the farm, it's been about three months, though it's hard to tell, what with travelling on a starship and everything. I took about two weeks to get the regiment mustered and then we had to wait another week after that for the Navy to arrive with the transports. That's when we all swore our oaths to the Almighty Emperor, to protect mankind and defeat our enemies. I don't know how many of us are in the regiment, but it took us two whole days to shuttle us up, with two hundred men to a shuttle, one every hour or so. Once we were on board, they split us up into training groups and gave out weapons and other kit. I've got my standard issue lasgun, made in the factories on Last Reach, but some of the lads from A Company have got a batch of lasguns from elsewhere. I think someone mentioned Triplex Phall. Anyway, the guns are the same, but different as well. You can strip them down and clean them just the same, but their guns have a metal stock, ours is wooden, theirs have got this fancy pistol grip, ours just got a stubby handle. I guess it's because there's not much but wood on Last Reach, so the factories have to make do with what they can get. Anyway, whatever they look like, they work the same way - point them at the enemy and pull the trigger!
Our ship was the Pride of Laurence, and to be honest I didn't enjoy the journey that much. I shared a bunkroom with the rest of my platoon, fifty of us in all, though of course the Lieutenant was with the other officers on another part of the ship. It was cramped and after a hard day's training it was a bit smelly. Not like the fresh air you're still enjoying! They worked us really hard. Marching drill before breakfast, then more drill and an hour on the firing ranges. The afternoon was hand-to-hand combat and wilderness survival. Of course, we've all been saying our prayers regularly, too, with a proper service at the end of the day before lights out. The chapel on board the Laurence is bigger than the one at Homeward. I've never heard so many people singing hymns at once. It's really stirring to know that I'm part of the whole thing.
It took about two months, I reckon, to get from Last Reach to here, and then another two days of shuttling down. I was worried [REDACTED] said we might have to drop in right at the front line, but in the end we landed in a town where the main base is, south of the mountains here. As we got off the lighters (that's what the Navy calls shuttles sometimes) another regiment was getting on. I managed to talk to some of them and they said they'd been fighting on Zaro's World for almost ten years! Those Orks don't give up easily by all accounts. We were their replacements. Apparently, they're allowed to go off and join one of the crusades. They even get to settle a whole new world if they conquer one. Can you imagine that, being able to start your own settlement? I hope we do well enough to get a similar reward - perhaps it'll be called Damek's World or Damek's Landing, that would be funny!
The men leaving were from Lorentian IV and, from what they said, that's a lot closer to Zaro's World than Last Reach. The Lieutenant explained that the longer the war goes on, the further and further away from the world they have to go to get new recruits. Apparently, it's a hive world where there are huge cities full of millions of people in a really small space [REDACTED]. The Lorentians told me that they weren't the first here either, so this war is probably older than you are! I could tell they were glad to be offworld soon, there were only about six shuttles worth of them left. Still, the men I was talking to were proud to have fought the Orks, protecting the people of Zaro's World from the alien scum. When we marched through the town, I don't remember its name, there were people cheering us and everything, as if we'd already won the war! We all enjoyed that, and it's good to know that I'm going to fight for the Emperor. It was a bit strange, us marching one way with our new red uniforms and shining buttons and freshly-painted tanks, while the Lorentians marched the other way, wearing muddy brown overalls with bits of bushes and other camo stuck to them. One of them joked about the 'Before and After' posters you get at chapels, the ones that show the man full of sin before confessional and then free and glad once he's paid his penance at the scourging rack.
Well, drums are sounding the Company muster so I'd better get going now, unless I want a quick turn at cleaning the privies or even end up with a few strips off my back. I hope you get this letter, and remember to help Uncle Maximillian when the Grox-cull season starts. You know his back isn't as strong as it used to be. Take care of everyone for me, little brother, and keep me in your prayers at night. I miss the farm, but I'm glad I'm here now, doing something for the Emperor and the people of Zaro's World. Keep up the hunting practice, and maybe when you're older you'll be able to join up too! I'm proud of you, be proud of me!
-- Damek Roigzek"
Tonight im gonna read my old codices for the imperial guard. Fluff wise they are very inspirational for any imperial guard army. Thanks for the awesome quotes!
Tower75 wrote:So... they can get and send mail? I knew it.
Didn't think so either - it pays off reading the old stuff, you never know what interesting detail you may stumble across that you've missed in the first read.
Now, of course one grimdark interpretation could be that the Guard just acts as if they could send mail for reasons of morale (basically, collecting letters and then just burning them), but given that in the source someone went through the effort of blackening controversial content, and that it is actually stamped with a mark reading "Last Reach sub relay 47/-4lr", it really does seem as if ordinary troopers are allowed to make use of astropath communications.
If it were up to me, I'd probably either fluff it as some sort of reward (similar to extra rations or a day of light duty), or that the regiment has some sort of system in place where they handle comm allowances via a long waiting list or a lottery.
After all, there's only so many psykers around that could transmit such letters.
In the eisenhorn books he wanders round hiring astropathic guilds for private comms jobs. I can see favoured individuals in certain guard units being given the oppirtunity. Alternatively the physical letters get stuffed in a crate that gets sent home by whatever ships happen to bebgoing near the home planet. They would get there eventually.
Lynata wrote: Maybe because, as I mentioned earlier, the Codex army list is supposed to represent a "worn down" regiment that has merged with other units in an effort to be applicable to the wide range of regimental options you could play - just like the main Codex list is missing the special rules for the Cadians, whilst allowing them to take stuff a "pure" Cadian unit would lack. And didn't Catachans had some special rules in their own Codex, too? If the Mordians were to get their own unique army list to represent a "pure" Mordian regiment, it's possible they would get some perk to reflect their background...
I can certainly foresee a few codex supplements being done based on this sort of idea when the new book is out.
Flinty wrote: Alternatively the physical letters get stuffed in a crate that gets sent home by whatever ships happen to bebgoing near the home planet. They would get there eventually.
They may get sent but they might not actually arrive at their destination. The ship could get redirected and the letters sent to the wrong regiment, they could just get dumped into space in favor of more lucrative cargo or they could just get burned by the Munitorum itself in order to keep up the fiction their mail is going out without actually going to the effort of making that happen. Lots of room for grimdark here.
tuebor wrote:I can certainly foresee a few codex supplements being done based on this sort of idea when the new book is out.
That would be sweet! I miss the old alternate army lists and mini-codices. Would be cool if they use the new supplements for such things, even though they'd no longer be free. It's certainly a likely thing, considering that they've now done this for Tau, Eldar and SM too.
tuebor wrote:
Flinty wrote:Alternatively the physical letters get stuffed in a crate that gets sent home by whatever ships happen to bebgoing near the home planet. They would get there eventually.
They may get sent but they might not actually arrive at their destination. The ship could get redirected and the letters sent to the wrong regiment, they could just get dumped into space in favor of more lucrative cargo or they could just get burned by the Munitorum itself in order to keep up the fiction their mail is going out without actually going to the effort of making that happen. Lots of room for grimdark here.
Well, going by that source, it does say "relay" which sounds like astropathic communication to me. Sending a huge ship with mail just sounds like a gigantic waste of resources to me (keeping in mind that this is the IoM we're talking about).
Unless that transport is going back to the world where that regiment came from anyways, I guess, but that's something I could at best consider for protracted wars and regiments from worlds that tithe regularly (like Armageddon or Cadia) rather than some backwater agriworld who is only called upon to raise a regiment once every hundred years or so. In other words, it'd be a matter of coincidence that sees a Navy ship travel back and forth between a warzone and a recruitment world. Possibly only likely for "smaller" distances?
What I'd enjoy is the vostroyans getting a supplement when the imperial guard get a re-release. DKoK would probably be the case though.
Vostroyans have pretty recent models considering the guard. Also they don't function like most guard regiments if I recall correctly. They basically keep adding to their regiments whereas most either combine their regiments or they get destroyed.
If I remember correctly a low number on the imperial guard like the cadian 8th means that the regiment is effective so it's kept up. Of course a high number like the cadian 1465th probably means it's a fairly new batch with an untested formation that might fail more frequently.
I'm kind of bummed we don't show all the different imperial guard regiments and give them each mini-supplements or abilities. Though I hated doctrines they kind of gave a lot of character even if everybody took the 'sharpshooters' doctrine because it was always useful. Camo cloaks don't help vs melee armies though I did have a pretty hilarious time with a demolisher cannon shooting at some guardsmen in a building and killing like 3 of the 10 of them even when fully covered.
Well for now it's mostly been cadians and catachans so there's always the chance that will be the supplement for the codex. Do they have more than one supplement for each codex now? Sorry I'm not keeping up. A new codex and new stuff would help me back into the guard though a vostroyan supplement would be nice.
Oh, yes it can. And I very much hope March stays where it is in the timeline, I've only got three and a bit months left until I'm 18...
*shudder*
On topic: If the DKoK got a supplement (and presumably some plastics), I'd be one happy camper.
Why are you so terrified of turning 18? Is your uncle waiting until you turn legal before he invites himself over for a slumber party?
I would pee and poo simultaneously if they released any DKoK stuff, but I have a feeling they will save that for Forge World. I am even skeptical they will make Steel Legion, but I would love to see them. I have a bunch of DKoK models, but their resin lasguns are too fragile, I would like compatible plastic weapons to arm them with.
Oh, yes it can. And I very much hope March stays where it is in the timeline, I've only got three and a bit months left until I'm 18...
*shudder*
On topic: If the DKoK got a supplement (and presumably some plastics), I'd be one happy camper.
Why are you so terrified of turning 18? Is your uncle waiting until you turn legal before he invites himself over for a slumber party?
18 means I'm tax-legal, and I'll be close to finishing sixth-form. Not a happy day.
I'm assured, however, that there will be cider on the day, so it's not all bad
I am really looking forward to the new codex. I would love to see more variety in the rules and fluff. Cadians can take a hike, DKoK and Vostroyans ahoy.
BTW it could be shipping relays. If you consider 40K to be similar to the 16th/17th century earth then letters are sent "over seas" aka across space by putting a payout amount and receiver on the letter. The letter is then sold from merchant ship sailor/captain to another and so forth until it gets to the destination where the bounty is paid by the receiving party. It worked for several centuries on earth to some degree or another and we know that there are an entire class of interstellar traders in 40K...in fact the game was named rogue trader at one point.
I tend to think of 40K as 16th-17th century earth applied to a galaxy where witches, devils, and monsters are real. They even have a Bermuda triangle.
Oh, yes it can. And I very much hope March stays where it is in the timeline, I've only got three and a bit months left until I'm 18...
*shudder*
On topic: If the DKoK got a supplement (and presumably some plastics), I'd be one happy camper.
Why are you so terrified of turning 18? Is your uncle waiting until you turn legal before he invites himself over for a slumber party?
18 means I'm tax-legal, and I'll be close to finishing sixth-form. Not a happy day.
I'm assured, however, that there will be cider on the day, so it's not all bad
Oh, yes it can. And I very much hope March stays where it is in the timeline, I've only got three and a bit months left until I'm 18...
*shudder*
On topic: If the DKoK got a supplement (and presumably some plastics), I'd be one happy camper.
Why are you so terrified of turning 18? Is your uncle waiting until you turn legal before he invites himself over for a slumber party?
18 means I'm tax-legal, and I'll be close to finishing sixth-form. Not a happy day.
I'm assured, however, that there will be cider on the day, so it's not all bad
This is creeping me out...
You're almost the same age as me too?
What's next, you have the same name?
I'll go hide under the bed.
Why would someone being close to your age be disturbing?
Oh, yes it can. And I very much hope March stays where it is in the timeline, I've only got three and a bit months left until I'm 18...
*shudder*
On topic: If the DKoK got a supplement (and presumably some plastics), I'd be one happy camper.
Why are you so terrified of turning 18? Is your uncle waiting until you turn legal before he invites himself over for a slumber party?
18 means I'm tax-legal, and I'll be close to finishing sixth-form. Not a happy day.
I'm assured, however, that there will be cider on the day, so it's not all bad
This is creeping me out...
You're almost the same age as me too?
What's next, you have the same name?
I'll go hide under the bed.
Why would someone being close to your age be disturbing?
ansacs wrote: I tend to think of 40K as 16th-17th century earth applied to a galaxy where witches, devils, and monsters are real. They even have a Bermuda triangle.
I'm pretty sure this is more or less the intention regarding space travel, and space combat is a combination of age of sail cannon broadsides and boardings and WWII carrier battles.
Bobthehero wrote: DKoK has a supplement, even a free pdf, what are you all on about?
I play Cadians, and while I'd like some sort of cool Cadian supplement with cool Cadian relics and stuff, I'd really like to see some of the other regiments getting some love first. There were rumors floating around about a Steel Legion one but I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't see a Catachan one as well to move some of that plastic.
Oh, yes it can. And I very much hope March stays where it is in the timeline, I've only got three and a bit months left until I'm 18...
*shudder*
On topic: If the DKoK got a supplement (and presumably some plastics), I'd be one happy camper.
Why are you so terrified of turning 18? Is your uncle waiting until you turn legal before he invites himself over for a slumber party?
18 means I'm tax-legal, and I'll be close to finishing sixth-form. Not a happy day.
I'm assured, however, that there will be cider on the day, so it's not all bad
Flinty wrote:Alternatively the physical letters get stuffed in a crate that gets sent home by whatever ships happen to bebgoing near the home planet. They would get there eventually.
They may get sent but they might not actually arrive at their destination. The ship could get redirected and the letters sent to the wrong regiment, they could just get dumped into space in favor of more lucrative cargo or they could just get burned by the Munitorum itself in order to keep up the fiction their mail is going out without actually going to the effort of making that happen. Lots of room for grimdark here.
Well, going by that source, it does say "relay" which sounds like astropathic communication to me. Sending a huge ship with mail just sounds like a gigantic waste of resources to me (keeping in mind that this is the IoM we're talking about).
Unless that transport is going back to the world where that regiment came from anyways, I guess, but that's something I could at best consider for protracted wars and regiments from worlds that tithe regularly (like Armageddon or Cadia) rather than some backwater agriworld who is only called upon to raise a regiment once every hundred years or so. In other words, it'd be a matter of coincidence that sees a Navy ship travel back and forth between a warzone and a recruitment world. Possibly only likely for "smaller" distances?
I don't mean a ship dedicated for mail, I mean that the letters could be put in a crate and taken by one ship to their next stopping over point. If that ship isn't going to the homeworld it leaves the crate to wait for one that will take it the next step home.
The fluff that was quoted did strongly imply it was astropathic, but that still doesn't mean that hardcopy would never get home. It might not be an efficient mail system, or even a guaranteed system, but the stepping stone approach would work most of the time I think.
Flinty wrote:I don't mean a ship dedicated for mail, I mean that the letters could be put in a crate and taken by one ship to their next stopping over point. If that ship isn't going to the homeworld it leaves the crate to wait for one that will take it the next step home.
I have to say, the idea of such letters taking decades to arrive at their destination (if ever) does kind of hit the tone of the setting.
Imagine random people getting mail to a soldier's loved ones, when in fact they are the grandchildren of the recipient, or do not actually know any of the names in the letter at all!
And then the planet where the soldier fought on was overrun by 'nids 20 years ago. Not that these people would know.
Flinty wrote:I don't mean a ship dedicated for mail, I mean that the letters could be put in a crate and taken by one ship to their next stopping over point. If that ship isn't going to the homeworld it leaves the crate to wait for one that will take it the next step home.
I have to say, the idea of such letters taking decades to arrive at their destination (if ever) does kind of hit the tone of the setting.
Imagine random people getting mail to a soldier's loved ones, when in fact they are the grandchildren of the recipient, or do not actually know any of the names in the letter at all!
And then the planet where the soldier fought on was overrun by 'nids 20 years ago. Not that these people would know.
It feels a little weird though that they'd need to send out letters when they probably have vid-screens and etc. I suppose it'd work with the whole WWII feel of the guard but if you have vid-screens I could imagine about 45 seconds per person would be enough (it is the imperium). It's just they probably never get to say crap about what's going on or it's filtered heavily which is probably a given. Perhaps somebody else states how they are doing.
I just always find sci-fi to be really weird in certain ways. They often take the tech of the time with really out there sci-fi. The older a sci-fi work is the more it tends to get goofy and ridiculous it seems. I heard once about a 'world of tomorrow' show that showed space ships delivering telegraphs. I'm sure it'd be awkward after a while like spin-dial phones or a battle station the size of a moon that has to take more energy getting somewhere and then destroying a planet than the planet actually probably provides (star wars). Then again a lot of it is goofy fun sci-fi and to be fair stuff like the imperial guard is heavily based on WWI and WWII so it fits a theme I guess. Plenty like southerners in space (starcraft) or exploration age style space battles.
To be fair to sci-fi the idea of "phoning home" changes abruptly when the distance between the two points is light years. Your vid screen call would take years to get to these soldiers planets if it wasn't background noise at that point. This has to be dealt with in some way and in the real world is insurmountable as of now.
There is a reason the setting revolves around telepaths to send communications (not practical for a vid screen call) and warp travel for everything else. You could send the stored vids just like a letter (and this would be much more practical) but trying to send it as a signal wouldn't work and trying to send it through the warp seemingly would require a psyker or geller field.
The vids, letters and the rest are all in one big pile on the ship. When it goes for maintenance or refuelling somewhere they are patched to different ships to go "Home" kinda like Mail on earth, but longer =P
flamingkillamajig wrote:It feels a little weird though that they'd need to send out letters when they probably have vid-screens and etc. I suppose it'd work with the whole WWII feel of the guard but if you have vid-screens I could imagine about 45 seconds per person would be enough (it is the imperium).
Apart from it possibly just being a matter of style/theme for the setting, it could just be that there's only two ways of interstellar communication - astropaths, or physical delivery. If the Imperium would be able to broadcast signals out over such massive distances, they wouldn't need psykers to play telephone. And of course whilst physical delivery would allow both traditional mail as well as actual recordings, letters are easier to write in the field (you can literally to this in the trench or a tent) and cost the Munitorum less to support.
I dunno I always was of the opinion that these days and in the future it'd be faster to send a message and easier than to travel to do the same. I'd imagine astropaths would be like the operator.
General Sturnn's speech at the end of the IG campaign in Winter Assault sums up my attitude towards the guard.
As for logistics, I always assumed that they just took mini factories along the campaign and, along with whatever local factories are available, just made what they needed on planet. It seems that most 40k conflicts aren't across the planet anyway.
I view the "Guard Machine" as an incredibly diverse army with regiments raised from all over the galaxy, each with their own fighting styles.
For example, my regiment often takes great losses in battle, but gets the job done, because the late-World War II Russian armored doctrine is the one we follow. That is to say, we use incredibly aggressive armored thrusts to destabilize a front line until one company or another can break through. Such aggression costs lives, but they're lives spent rather than wasted, and the Leman Russ is the perfect vehicle to do it with.
On the other hand, a buddy-of-mine's Regiment (which he built specifically in response to mine) uses Devil-dog "medium tanks" in a more German way, taking advantage of the Fast vehicle rule (and the power of the Melta Cannon) to dart about in front of the enemy line. He takes nine of these usually, with one Command Leman Russ and two armored fist squads, armored fist veteran squads, or armored squadrons as troops (if he can fit them in).
I realised I actual made no contribution to the thread, so here go's. I see the guard as a fully fledged military, well kitted out, but with each regiment kitted out differently to suit its assigned specialisation. I see the guards generals as good leaders, who realise that sacrifices must be made to achieve victory.
"Lives will be lost, the only thing we can do is to make sure that the enemy lose all of theirs and we do not." That phrase is exactly how I would sum up guard commanders (the good ones at any rate)
basicaly it is a military that has so many troops, its acceptable losses are much higher than any other.
Psienesis wrote: The Mordian Iron Guard are legendary for their discipline under fire and their iron-strong adherence to orders. They follow their orders to the letter and without a moment's hesitation. They are excellent sharpshooters, using precise fire and iron resolve to destroy the enemies of the Emperor.
They fight in their dress uniforms, as "the bright colors and elaborate decoration on Mordian uniforms often mislead their enemies into thinking they are facing ceremonial troops with little combat experience, though this misapprehension is usually corrected as soon as they attempt to advance in the face of the Iron Guards' precise volleys and unyielding resolve." If you're bringing people in from somewhere else they don't have this uniform to wear.
It should also be noted "even in the face of the overwhelming daemonic hordes of Chaos, Iron Guard regiments will stand their ground, striking down their foe with disciplined fire; if forced to withdraw their lines will never break." Why GW did not give them Fearless or Iron Discipline or... something to represent this is anyone's guess. So I would not take their lack of SR on the table-top to represent that this unit is not just as special as the Catachan (just in a different manner).
Unless every man on Moridia (or whatever planet the Iron Guard hail from) is born standing at attention in neatly pressed uniform, waiting to shoot the nearest alien, they learned how to do that.
Therefore, other humans can learn this too.
It is also possible to make new uniforms (if it weren't the Iron Guard would quickly have to learn how to fight naked after a few days of combat...).
hell yes thats how Mordian is
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LightKing wrote: doesn't Caliban produce the best guards of the whole imperium
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I thought Caliban got all kaboomulated at the end of the heresy?
Some commanders are like Chenkov, bury them in bodies, we have more energy in lasguns than you have cannons. Some are smart tacticians like Creed. Some regiments use power of artillery, some tanks, some diversion and spec ops tactics. And usually many of different regiments is send to one war for one planet or system. It depends on regional commander etc how is whole war approached.
I guess some regiments can take a break at home, but sometimes, you just cant use your precious resources to send hundreds of thousands men home for few weeks. They must use some free world with enough resources for garrisoning such force. Thousands of systems means they really probably wont see their home. Its to complicated for logistics and resources. Its grimdark 
my point is that a travel of six years would mean that conflict zone is sssooo far away, you must have someone closer in the Imperium.
