I've been watching star treks and in voyager Tuvok seems to mind meld with pretty much everyone he meets. Multible mind melds, self melds, group melds, mind meldspree and he even gets assimilated by borg. I remember how picard melded with spock's dad and it was a big deal leaving picard psychologically messed up (and that was easy compared to borg assimilation).
Voyager could have been good if every episode was not one of the following:
1) OH how are we going to get home. Hey look this alien race has some new tech that will help us get home faster. YAY!!!
2) Janeway: I will not violate the prime directive
Crew: but it gets us home faster
Janeway: Violate the prime directive right now
3) Booooooorrrrrrrggggggg (got nerfed all to hell)
(seriously how the feth can 1 tiny ship, with limitless crew I might add, waltz through the borg empire and win)
FirePainter wrote: Voyager could have been good if every episode was not one of the following:
1) OH how are we going to get home. Hey look this alien race has some new tech that will help us get home faster. YAY!!!
2) Janeway: I will not violate the prime directive
Crew: but it gets us home faster
Janeway: Violate the prime directive right now
3) Booooooorrrrrrrggggggg (got nerfed all to hell)
(seriously how the feth can 1 tiny ship, with limitless crew I might add, waltz through the borg empire and win)
Honestly what is wrong with this?
1. If voyager never found anything usefull you would watching a show where a ship goes through empty space.
Not in a single episode no, but Janeway constantly jumps back and forth between adhering to the prime directive, bending it, and completely ignoring it, seemingly for no reason other than the convenience of the plot. EDIT: If you doubt this just ask Kate Mulgrew herself because she complained about it all the time.
Voyager has the poorest quality writing of all the original Star Trek titles in part due to good old executive meddling. Some people make it out as a terrible show, which it wasn't. Objectively it was a good all around sci-fi adventure, and probably the most like TOSimo. However the series was also by far the most liberal with characters and plot and right on the heels of the very dark and well put together DS9.
Can definitely say that The Doctor was a very noteable highlight for the series. Hate Voyager all you want, but Robert Picardo is the best artifical life form to appear on screen since Data imo. He might not have been as deep or well thought out as others, but he was just a joy to watch.
FirePainter wrote: Voyager could have been good if every episode was not one of the following:
1) OH how are we going to get home. Hey look this alien race has some new tech that will help us get home faster. YAY!!!
2) Janeway: I will not violate the prime directive
Crew: but it gets us home faster
Janeway: Violate the prime directive right now
3) Booooooorrrrrrrggggggg (got nerfed all to hell)
(seriously how the feth can 1 tiny ship, with limitless crew I might add, waltz through the borg empire and win)
Honestly what is wrong with this?
1. If voyager never found anything usefull you would watching a show where a ship goes through empty space.
Scorpion was probably the best episode for the entire series I will give you that but still. The series had great moments and the doctor is one of m favorite characters across all the shows but in my opinion Voyager did not measure up to TOS or DS9 or TNG.
daedalus wrote: I understand your situation. I've been there before.
Here's how you fix it: Watch the first episode of a season, and then watch the LAST episode of the season. Move on to the next season and repeat.
You catch every thing that matters, and you minimize the number of times you have to go to the interest and ask "WTF?"
It might be worthwhile watching the middle 2 episodes of the season as well. - They're sometimes half decent.
But yeah, the main reason to watch Voyager is Robert Picardo, then Jeri Ryan later on in the series. IMO, at least.
DS9 is still my favourite Trek, though Picard remains my best captain.
LordofHats wrote: Can definitely say that The Doctor was a very noteable highlight for the series. Hate Voyager all you want, but Robert Picardo is the best artifical life form to appear on screen since Data imo. He might not have been as deep or well thought out as others, but he was just a joy to watch.
That is a very good point, The Dr. was a very good/consistent character throughout the series.
ST: Voyager was an abomination of a series with a few decent actors trying their best to salvage something from the wreck the screenwriting constantly left behind.
Even if you disregard it's supposed to be part of the Star Trek universe, it is annoying to see how the writers managed to miss literally EVERY single chance to turn their occasionally interesting ideas into halfway intelligent stories. I can see how Seven of Nine, Cpt. Janeway or the Doctor as characters find their fans, but I am always baffled that anybody would watch this show for its own merits.
So, in short: Disregard everything the other Trek series tell you about Vulcans, because you probably know more about them than the writers did. Also, disregard everything you ever learn about Tuvok, because the writers never remembered what they wrote about any particular character a week ago. Then, and only then, will anything a ST: Voyager character does ever make sense.
Janeway... WORST CHARACTER EVER! Micromanaging bitch from hell.
If the show had really wanted to capture me, they would have mutinied halfway through the show, dumped her on some Kazon world, and taken back one of the 246 ways they could have gotten home without her stonewalling them.
Compel wrote: DS9 is still my favourite Trek, though Picard remains my best captain.
Ya know, it'll get you cruicified around any hardcore fanbase, but I really liked DS9 too. TOS was my favorite, but that's what I grew up exposed to.
I like DS9 because it was such a stark difference to the others. It was Babylon 5, except I wanted to watch it. It also took the goody goody Federation and revealed a few parts of it that were unseemly and dark, which was pretty cool.
Compel wrote: DS9 is still my favourite Trek, though Picard remains my best captain.
Ya know, it'll get you cruicified around any hardcore fanbase, but I really liked DS9 too. TOS was my favorite, but that's what I grew up exposed to.
I like DS9 because it was such a stark difference to the others. It was Babylon 5, except I wanted to watch it. It also took the goody goody Federation and revealed a few parts of it that were unseemly and dark, which was pretty cool.
DS9 is acknowledged as one of the best by just about everyone.
Allod wrote: ST: Voyager was an abomination of a series with a few decent actors trying their best to salvage something from the wreck the screenwriting constantly left behind.
Even if you disregard it's supposed to be part of the Star Trek universe, it is annoying to see how the writers managed to miss literally EVERY single chance to turn their occasionally interesting ideas into halfway intelligent stories. I can see how Seven of Nine, Cpt. Janeway or the Doctor as characters find their fans, but I am always baffled that anybody would watch this show for its own merits.
So, in short: Disregard everything the other Trek series tell you about Vulcans, because you probably know more about them than the writers did. Also, disregard everything you ever learn about Tuvok, because the writers never remembered what they wrote about any particular character a week ago. Then, and only then, will anything a ST: Voyager character does ever make sense.
They really were a fantastic cast of actors. Did you know that Mulgrew and Beltran hate (In italics) each other? Even before the show was filmed they hated each other. Somehow they managed to completely hide it and make it look like something else entirely.
Compel wrote: DS9 is still my favourite Trek, though Picard remains my best captain.
Ya know, it'll get you cruicified around any hardcore fanbase, but I really liked DS9 too. TOS was my favorite, but that's what I grew up exposed to.
I like DS9 because it was such a stark difference to the others. It was Babylon 5, except I wanted to watch it. It also took the goody goody Federation and revealed a few parts of it that were unseemly and dark, which was pretty cool.
DS9 is acknowledged as one of the best by just about everyone.
As time goes on, DS9 becomes more and more remembered as the magnum opus of Star Trek. It took the utopic vision of Rodenberry and cast it into a more realistic light. Many fans didn't like it at the time (myself included) but as the years go by it is more and more recognized as the height of Star Trek and I will always argue that it is and overall it has imo the best cast (though Picard is still imo the most well done captain of them all).
Picard was just the most human. Kirk was so badass as to appear inhuman at times (and thats why we love him). Sisko was an enigma his entire time on screen so while he was awesome he always felt distant which was part of his messianic character. Janeway was poorly written. Picard stands out I think as the ultimate of what we could expect a leader of men to really be like
Every trek fan I have seen or talked to will say something to the effect that either TOS or TNG were their favorites but they really lked DS9 because of the characters and unique story. (who doesn't love Quark and Odo)
DS9 went to places most other treks didn't and focused alot more on the character progression which made it so good imo
Voyager should have been more like the new Battlestar Galactica. A dirty struggle to get home. The episodes 'Year of Hell' was what the series should have been like generally, instead it was all the usual nice cheerful stuff like Next Gen, and the consequences of them being that far from home played little role in the series beyond the occasional mention of them having replicator rations. Had they been brave to do something different then the TV series probably wouldn't have ended on a whimper with Enterprise.
I know Tuvok is pretty trippy but he doesn't even compare to captain profet. Only good part of ds9 is quark and kira's ass. DS9 is basically a soap opera in space.
Voyager was the first star trek series i ever saw, and it's still the one I've seen the most episodes of. Therefore by the rules of nostalgia I'm required to like it. Same as I prefer the 3 prequel Star Wars movies because they were the first I saw.
They really were a fantastic cast of actors. Did you know that Mulgrew and Beltran hate (In italics) each other? Even before the show was filmed they hated each other. Somehow they managed to completely hide it and make it look like something else entirely.
Nope, didn't know that, so kudos to them.
I do remember though that Mulgrew played Janeway under the premise that she was bi-polar, because that was the only way her character made sense, that Beltran at one point publically vented his frustration with the writers and that Ryan complained she wasn't properly briefed what the Borg were supposed to be like.
It's really a shame that such a professional (I would hesitate to say fantastic, but that's purely a question of personal taste) cast was wasted on that turd of a show.
After DS9, I expected them to further explore the "grittier" part of Star Trek, and Voyager, far from home, with a crew half made up of terrorists/freedom fighters, seemed to fit the bill perfectly. Overarching storylines a la late Next Generation or DS9 would also have lent themselves well to the themes of looking for a way home/conflicts within the crew and a whole new quadrant to explore, with completely new "rules of the game".
What we got was a lame alien of the week-show, just like TOS, only with less charm and a pronounced lack of ripped shirts.
That's why I hate Voyager so very much: Enterprise (the prequel series) was "just" bad. But Voyager, from the premise to the cast, had huge potential, and not only killed it within the first episodes, but proceeded to piss on its corpse for several seasons.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dementedwombat wrote: Voyager was the first star trek series i ever saw, and it's still the one I've seen the most episodes of. Therefore by the rules of nostalgia I'm required to like it. Same as I prefer the 3 prequel Star Wars movies because they were the first I saw.
I'll always like The Next Generation, but if I was to go out and actually buy or download a Trek series to watch it again, it would be DS9. It was Star Trek written like Babylon Five.
djones520 wrote: Janeway... WORST CHARACTER EVER! Micromanaging bitch from hell.
If the show had really wanted to capture me, they would have mutinied halfway through the show, dumped her on some Kazon world, and taken back one of the 246 ways they could have gotten home without her stonewalling them.
Janeway then was Voyager's version of Gilligan, always messing up chances of getting home?
djones520 wrote: Janeway... WORST CHARACTER EVER! Micromanaging bitch from hell.
If the show had really wanted to capture me, they would have mutinied halfway through the show, dumped her on some Kazon world, and taken back one of the 246 ways they could have gotten home without her stonewalling them.
Janeway then was Voyager's version of Gilligan, always messing up chances of getting home?
Had Chakotay phasered her and dumped her out of the airlock right off the bat, they'd have been home in 2 seasons tops.
Howard A Treesong wrote: Voyager should have been more like the new Battlestar Galactica. A dirty struggle to get home. The episodes 'Year of Hell' was what the series should have been like generally, instead it was all the usual nice cheerful stuff like Next Gen, and the consequences of them being that far from home played little role in the series beyond the occasional mention of them having replicator rations. Had they been brave to do something different then the TV series probably wouldn't have ended on a whimper with Enterprise.
TNG was voyagers downfall, people wanted more like it, so voyager came. Year of hell was supposed to be an entire season. And the crew where some of terrorists is rarely brough up. I love it because it was the first I saw, but It is bad.
I can't watch TNG repeats because they're soooooooo boring. And the Enterprise D was just a dumb looking ship. But generally the writing wasn't as stupid as what Voyager got stuck with. I mean, "Blue" Alert? WTF?
Currently going through DS9 atm and I must agree on it being the best of the much. I started watching star trek through Voyager, after getting to season 5 I simply lost the will to live and stopped. Hell the only reason I got that far was Picardo and Ryan. The only good thing I can say about Voyager was that it did get me into star trek, didn't help myself by watching Enterprise next though.
Voyager was my favorite Trek, and in my opinion the best/most interesting series out to date. Granted, The Original Series and The Next Generation were great, and had some great moments ("The Measure of a Man" from TNG remains one of my favorite episodes, period.), Enterprise was utter garbage, and DS9 wasn't much better, it was an obvious (and in my opinion vastly inferior) derivative of Babylon 5.
Much like Digimon and Pokemon, Deep Space 9 and Babylon 5 were two shows that developed independently of one another and turned out eerily similar. Besides, DS9 began airing in 1993, and Babylon Five started a year later. Its hard to rip off a show that hasn't hasn't even started filming when you've already aired your first episode..
So, in short: Disregard everything the other Trek series tell you about Vulcans, because you probably know more about them than the writers did. Also, disregard everything you ever learn about Tuvok, because the writers never remembered what they wrote about any particular character a week ago. Then, and only then, will anything a ST: Voyager character does ever make sense.
You just say that because Tuvok turned 100 years old twice.
LordofHats wrote: Much like Digimon and Pokemon, Deep Space 9 and Babylon 5 were two shows that developed independently of one another and turned out eerily similar. Besides, DS9 began airing in 1993, and Babylon Five started a year later. Its hard to rip off a show that hasn't hasn't even started filming when you've already aired your first episode..
It isn't that hard, when the guy who wrote the show comes to your station first and gives you a glimpse at the whole show's story
LordofHats wrote: Much like Digimon and Pokemon, Deep Space 9 and Babylon 5 were two shows that developed independently of one another and turned out eerily similar. Besides, DS9 began airing in 1993, and Babylon Five started a year later. Its hard to rip off a show that hasn't hasn't even started filming when you've already aired your first episode..
It isn't that hard, when the guy who wrote the show comes to your station first and gives you a glimpse at the whole show's story
He's been boating around that story for years but any attention paid to production of DS9 shows its complete crap. Berman and Piller developed the premise of the series independently before the alledged Babylon 5 promo mateiral was even given to Paramount, and Straczynski's continual claim that Paramount used his materials to develop the show fly in the face of all the production material which shows DS9 to have been developed mostly on the fly, not heavily planned out like his own series. EDIT: Brandon Tartikoff who pushed the series' development from start to finish didn't even work for Paramount until 1991.
The superficial similarities between the two series were ultimately coincidence.
The Vulcan guy who didn't have to sleep with Braga to get his part.
Are you sure
DS9 was dissappointing , star trek's whole one episode and forget it syndrome, What i liked about B5 was that it was mapped out from beginning to end in broad lines.
I enjoyed the pilot episode of Voyager and thought it set things up nicely for a fresh Trek series, but all it took was one episode for the writers to revert to the nice, safe anomaly-of-the-week episodes that typified the TNG era and quietly shelved the interesting cards that Caretaker had put on the table. To me it was a retrograde step from DS9 in that it lacked the kind of story arc that was fast becoming the sine qua non for a quality modern series.
Each to their own of course, but I'll always see Voyager as a missed opportunity.
Absolutely. It could have brought together all the best parts of Battlestar Galactica (obviously the new series wasn't out yet, but the basic premise of the original one), and Star Trek. Can't Lose! Wanna bet?
AegisGrimm wrote: I'll always like The Next Generation, but if I was to go out and actually buy or download a Trek series to watch it again, it would be DS9. It was Star Trek written like Babylon Five.
This a 1,000 times. I loved TNG but if I was going to watch an actual Star Trek series over the course of a month or so it'd be DS9.
But then again I'm probably disqualified because my second choice would be Enterprise which I genuinely enjoyed.
AegisGrimm wrote: I'll always like The Next Generation, but if I was to go out and actually buy or download a Trek series to watch it again, it would be DS9. It was Star Trek written like Babylon Five.
This a 1,000 times. I loved TNG but if I was going to watch an actual Star Trek series over the course of a month or so it'd be DS9.
But then again I'm probably disqualified because my second choice would be Enterprise which I genuinely enjoyed.
I enjoyed Enterprise a lot as well. We seem to be a minority.
I think part of the problem for Enterprise was that after TNG, DS9, and Voyager, Enterprise went back to the old days of TOS where the human captain endlessly preached to everyone he met about how everything they were doing was wrong and that humans did it better (all Star Trek has degrees of this but its heaviest in Enterprise). The Vulcan's being such grandious douche bags also came off as odd.
It came off as anti-trek to some, and frankly most of the episodes were boring (season 1 especially, 2 and 3 were better). Their coolest idea was the Temporal Cold War and I always felt like they botched it at every turn.
LordofHats wrote: I think part of the problem for Enterprise was that after TNG, DS9, and Voyager, Enterprise went back to the old days of TOS where the human captain endlessly preached to everyone he met about how everything they were doing was wrong and that humans did it better (all Star Trek has degrees of this but its heaviest in Enterprise). The Vulcan's being such grandious douche bags also came off as odd.
It came off as anti-trek to some, and frankly most of the episodes were boring (season 1 especially, 2 and 3 were better). Their coolest idea was the Temporal Cold War and I always felt like they botched it at every turn.
Eff the temporal cold war. My biggest beef with Star Trek post TNG was how whenever the writers seemed to feel lazy, they threw some time travel gak in there. It got real old.
I enjoy well done time travel but yes. Its too often used as the last resort of a writer out of ideas and is pulled off poorly. Hell they never really even explained the specifics of the conflict. The Suliban disappeared off the earth, and then some random nazi aliens show up out of no where.
EDIT: Trials and Tribblations stands out as a good Trek time travel story, but then that episode never took itself very seriously.
Are you quite sure sir? It does mean changing the bulb.
It was funny on Red Dwarf. Unfortunately it was supposed to be serious (and exciting) on Voyager. The first time they took Voyager in for a landing on a planet's surface, Janeway called out, "Blue Alert!" and the lights went blue. It was a "did that just happen?" moment. The whole landing sequence was just too stupid to be believed. Giant, clunky landing gear didn't help, either. Fortunately, they never did the "Blue" alert again and I think some of the cast wish the DVDs were edited so it never happened the first time.
RossDas wrote: I enjoyed the pilot episode of Voyager and thought it set things up nicely for a fresh Trek series, but all it took was one episode for the writers to revert to the nice, safe anomaly-of-the-week episodes that typified the TNG era and quietly shelved the interesting cards that Caretaker had put on the table. To me it was a retrograde step from DS9 in that it lacked the kind of story arc that was fast becoming the sine qua non for a quality modern series.
Each to their own of course, but I'll always see Voyager as a missed opportunity.
They spent most of the series trying to make it back to Earth from deep in the Delta quadrant, what more of a story arc could you ask for!? Let alone the 'sub-arcs' with the Borg related intrigues and Species 8472 (and to a much lesser extent the Hirogen). Then there were several long-term romances, etc. on ship, Seven rediscovering her humanity, the doctors Data-like quest to determine how 'alive' he was, etc. It was all there, and you didn't have to look very hard to see it... or maybe you did.
I enjoyed Enterprise a lot as well. We seem to be a minority.
For me it was all the temporal cold war and time travel nonsense. It was like Dr. WhoTrek or some nonsense like that, wanted nothing to do with it. I wanted to enjoy it, it had a lot of interesting elements to it, etc. but the more they got sucked into time paradoxes and all that bs the more I hated it and wanted it to go away.
Eff the temporal cold war. My biggest beef with Star Trek post TNG was how whenever the writers seemed to feel lazy, they threw some time travel gak in there. It got real old.
Hallelujah brother. Preach!
It was funny on Red Dwarf. Unfortunately it was supposed to be serious (and exciting) on Voyager. The first time they took Voyager in for a landing on a planet's surface, Janeway called out, "Blue Alert!" and the lights went blue. It was a "did that just happen?" moment. The whole landing sequence was just too stupid to be believed. Giant, clunky landing gear didn't help, either. Fortunately, they never did the "Blue" alert again and I think some of the cast wish the DVDs were edited so it never happened the first time.
Huh, I must have self-edited that from my memory, because I don't remember... to be fair, things like "amber alert" and "silver alerts" are real things (in the civilian world) so its not completely out of the question... right?
Watching enterprise currently... I wish the crew would stop trying to have sex with random aliens.
You mean you wouldn't!??!? Too boldly go... where no (hu)man... has gone before....
illuknisaa wrote: I remember how picard melded with spock's dad and it was a big deal leaving picard psychologically messed up (and that was easy compared to borg assimilation).
Wasn't Spock's dad going senile at the time? He used the mind meld to basically transfer his senility to Picard so that he could fulfill some dignitary function or somesuch.
Somewhat of an extenuating circumstance for a mindmeld, not really par for the course.
Also B5 > DS9. Said it and I'm not taking it back.
Also B5 > DS9. Said it and I'm not taking it back.
I could see how, were one to ignore all the interesting characters from DS9 and have a little too much fascination with sideways mohawks, Babylon 5 could be better.
Also B5 > DS9. Said it and I'm not taking it back.
I could see how, were one to ignore all the interesting characters from DS9 and have a little too much fascination with sideways mohawks, Babylon 5 could be better.
I could see how, were one to ignore all the interesting characters from B5 and have a little too much fascination with large ears, head ridges, weird skin, and spots on ones temples, Deep Space 9 could be better.
Edit: In retrospect, I suppose the head ridges, weird skin, and spots on temples bits could conceivably be applied to B5 as well, but to clarify, I am referring to: Quark, Worf, Odo, and Dax (in that order), and in combination can apply to just about any species in Trek.
Also lando and G'Kar > Odo and Quark. But not by much.
Fixed that for you
honestly I really liked both B5 and DS9. I mean come on when asked how fast the white star could go Straczynski said that it moves at the speed of plot and how true it was. And DS9 was the only trek to be halfway realistic. They were both great.
Also B5 > DS9. Said it and I'm not taking it back.
I could see how, were one to ignore all the interesting characters from DS9 and have a little too much fascination with sideways mohawks, Babylon 5 could be better.
I could see how, were one to ignore all the interesting characters from B5 and have a little too much fascination with large ears, head ridges, weird skin, and spots on ones temples, Deep Space 9 could be better.
Edit: In retrospect, I suppose the head ridges, weird skin, and spots on temples bits could conceivably be applied to B5 as well, but to clarify, I am referring to: Quark, Worf, Odo, and Dax (in that order), and in combination can apply to just about any species in Trek.
Regardless, you gotta admit that neither could hold a candle to Lex.
I feel that both DS9 and B5 were excellent shows and really the nadir of episodic sci-fi. Everything before was building to it and everything since is disappointing. Of course, these shows were both touchstones of my nerdtastic pubescence, so YMMV.
feeder wrote: I feel that both DS9 and B5 were excellent shows and really the nadir of episodic sci-fi. Everything before was building to it and everything since is disappointing. Of course, these shows were both touchstones of my nerdtastic pubescence, so YMMV.
Zenith...
Anyhow.
B5 was head and shoulders above any Trek, for me, it's story matter, it's scale, it's willingness to tackle the darkest issues of daily life whilst threading together a 5 year story arc on a biblical level. Let's perhaps leave it on the sidelines for discussing Trek against Trek though, it's a different universe and a different show.
DS9 was my favorite Trek, very good characters, a reasonable story arc it's self and some very excellent episodes. 'Duet' and 'In the Pale Moonlight' stand out for me as exemplary. It was freed of Roddenberry's awful choke-hold and allowed to be a smart tv show, allowed to adapt to the new, cynical viewing public, Great characters, Great actors.
..Voyager wasn't, Voyager plodded for many series (the Kazon, whoever imagined these dickheads would be a credible threat in a galaxy of Dominion and Borg...?!?) with terrible stand alone stories and some remarkably bad cast, either characters (neelix, the man-fish-dog in the suit made from 90s hotel curtains and his 'comic relief'...) or actors (Garrett Wang as Harry Quim, should be fired into the nearest sun, the guy was fething awful).
Eventually Voyager fell into a comfortable holy trinity trope in the final series' with the captain, doctor and 7o9 as the trio of important characters and the rest acting as filler, which is more than many of them deserved (Paris, Quim and Chakotay) and less than others should have (Torres, Tuvok). But it lived and died 'playing it safe', even when it finally got better, it got better by adding 'safe' good elements: A great pair of tits and the borg, a familiar and viewer approved bad guy.
Again and again, I keep lamenting that instead of Enterprise, Paramount had had the balls to do the Section 31 show it had mulled over... again, it wimped out and played it safe by making Enterprise, played it safest of all by doing a prequel, trying to tie in as much nostalgia as possible and in doing all the safest things, killed the franchise.
If they'd made it, done the Section 31 show, dark, brooding stuff, the bad people making paradise possible... well, I think we'd still be watching it or it's successor now.
feeder wrote: I feel that both DS9 and B5 were excellent shows and really the ZENITH of episodic sci-fi. Everything before was building to it and everything since is disappointing. Of course, these shows were both touchstones of my nerdtastic pubescence, so YMMV.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I can't imagine what you are talking about?
illuknisaa wrote: I remember how picard melded with spock's dad and it was a big deal leaving picard psychologically messed up (and that was easy compared to borg assimilation).
Wasn't Spock's dad going senile at the time? He used the mind meld to basically transfer his senility to Picard so that he could fulfill some dignitary function or somesuch.
Somewhat of an extenuating circumstance for a mindmeld, not really par for the course.
Sure the circumstances where a bit different but seriously Tuvok has pretty melded with everyone on voyger atleast twise (and seven three times), the borg (on 3 different occasions) and suffered from bunch on mind altering events (like being mindmelded into a mindmelding maquis agent who mindmelds 1/5-1/4 of voyger crew twise or how he gets literally melded together with neelix).
Didn't star trek: enterprice refer mindmelding as mind rape? Wouldn't that make whores tame compared to tuvok?
The only person Tuvok hasn't mindmelded with is the doctor and thats only because he didn't have the chance. (doctor could mind meld with seven and then tuvok could meld with seven/doctor, a (second) threeway so to speak).
daedalus wrote:I could see how, were one to ignore all the interesting characters from DS9 and have a little too much fascination with sideways mohawks, Babylon 5 could be better.
Are you insinuating that B5 was completely devoid of interesting characters? Or that physical alien effects for DS9 were somehow vastly superior to B5?
Also lando and G'Kar > Odo and Quark. But not by much.
Fixed that for you
honestly I really liked both B5 and DS9. I mean come on when asked how fast the white star could go Straczynski said that it moves at the speed of plot and how true it was. And DS9 was the only trek to be halfway realistic. They were both great.
Lando/G'Kar is probably one of, if not THE, best bromance ever shown on television. The development of those two characters from bitter enemies, to grudging acquaintances, to close friends is incredibly well portrayed. The relationships eventual end is nothing short of amazing.
daedalus wrote:I could see how, were one to ignore all the interesting characters from DS9 and have a little too much fascination with sideways mohawks, Babylon 5 could be better.
Are you insinuating that B5 was completely devoid of interesting characters? Or that physical alien effects for DS9 were somehow vastly superior to B5?
Not devoid necessarily. If would have asked me about characters on both shows having had me not watch both of them since their original airing, in spite of watching most of the episodes, I could probably have named almost all of the major DS9 characters. Can't say that about the B5 ones. And the sideways mohawks were just goofy.
I thought the episode of Voyager with the descendants of dinosaurs was interesting. Especially if you imagined what would happen when they got to Earth.
AegisGrimm wrote: I thought the episode of Voyager with the descendants of dinosaurs was interesting. Especially if you imagined what would happen when they got to Earth.
RossDas wrote: I enjoyed the pilot episode of Voyager and thought it set things up nicely for a fresh Trek series, but all it took was one episode for the writers to revert to the nice, safe anomaly-of-the-week episodes that typified the TNG era and quietly shelved the interesting cards that Caretaker had put on the table. To me it was a retrograde step from DS9 in that it lacked the kind of story arc that was fast becoming the sine qua non for a quality modern series.
Each to their own of course, but I'll always see Voyager as a missed opportunity.
They spent most of the series trying to make it back to Earth from deep in the Delta quadrant, what more of a story arc could you ask for!? Let alone the 'sub-arcs' with the Borg related intrigues and Species 8472 (and to a much lesser extent the Hirogen). Then there were several long-term romances, etc. on ship, Seven rediscovering her humanity, the doctors Data-like quest to determine how 'alive' he was, etc. It was all there, and you didn't have to look very hard to see it... or maybe you did.
The 'getting home' issue was more of a series premise than a plot arc, and there just wasn't enough meat and bones, too much filler over the course of seven series to make a series as compelling to me as DS9, B5 or even something like The X-Files. Making things harder was the fact that we'd already had around three Trek series worth of ideas and concepts and so it was harder to keeps things feeling fresh; it too often felt to me like the franchise was simply going through the motions. I liked the development of the doctor, but beyond that there's little there I wish to revisit other than the occasional great two-parters, such as Scorpion, and Year of Hell.
So not hard to see what's there, just hard to stay interested; my own view of course!
I found the Doctors seeming ability to cure everything, even the extreme "evolution" that Janeway and Paris went through when they turned into platypi and mated, just silly.
There was no medical challenge he could not overcome. If he was able to do all that just using the sum computing power of Voyager, then how has Starfleet as a whole not solved the death issue yet?
djones520 wrote: I found the Doctors seeming ability to cure everything, even the extreme "evolution" that Janeway and Paris went through when they turned into platypi and mated, just silly.
There was no medical challenge he could not overcome. If he was able to do all that just using the sum computing power of Voyager, then how has Starfleet as a whole not solved the death issue yet?
Given its the future, anything is possible.
Wesley: The star is exploding, Captain! Nova event in 30 seconds.
Picard: Divert all power to the warp core.
Wesley: But Captain, what would that sol-
Picard: Engage.
Wesley: Wait...what?
Picard: Engage.
Wesley: Are you okay, Captain?
Picard: Engage.
Wesley: So are we going to leave the area before the star explodes?
Picard: Disengage.
Wesley: So are you going to keep doing this until I divert all power to the warp core?
Picard: Engage.
Wesley: Okay, I'm doing it and.....the star stopped going nova?! How is that even possible???!?
Picard: Let that be a lesson to you Man Child Wesley. Don't ever Roddenberry me again.
daedalus wrote:I could see how, were one to ignore all the interesting characters from DS9 and have a little too much fascination with sideways mohawks, Babylon 5 could be better.
Are you insinuating that B5 was completely devoid of interesting characters? Or that physical alien effects for DS9 were somehow vastly superior to B5?
Not devoid necessarily. If would have asked me about characters on both shows having had me not watch both of them since their original airing, in spite of watching most of the episodes, I could probably have named almost all of the major DS9 characters. Can't say that about the B5 ones. And the sideways mohawks were just goofy.
Whereas the only characters beyond Cisko that I could name from DS9 were O'Brien and Worf, both of whom were cribbed from Next Generation. OTOH, I can still name Sheridan and Sinclair, Londo and G'Kar's bromance, Kosh's awesomeness, Ivanova, D'Len, and while I could keep going I think you get my point.
And while the sideways mohawks may have been goofy, they were not actually a species trait (like klingon head ridges), but rather a style of hair worn by the aristocracy. Centari women were bald, and Vir (Londo's servant) didn't sport one.
Besides, the Vorlon are probably one of the coolest races out of a sci-fi series of that decade.
I must say one of my favorite tv quotes was Kosh saying
"And so it begins..."
He said it in a way that only a semi-all knowing being can, with power and mystery.
While I agree with you streamdragon that Lando and G'kar were amazing. I still really liked the interaction between Odo and Quark as well. The way that DS9 ended with Quack saying
"The more things change, the more they stay the same."
Was also a very good finish and while ther was a lot of I'll say pain at the end of the series it still had the classic star trek feel good ending ever with the events of the war and its conclusion
My personal best trait of B5 was the originality of the spaceships and the realism that was portrayed in them. Rotating sections to generate grav. Space fish of the Minbari. I think that they did a very good job getting the aesthetics of each race portrayed in their ships.
And while the sideways mohawks may have been goofy, they were not actually a species trait (like klingon head ridges), but rather a style of hair worn by the aristocracy. Centari women were bald, and Vir (Londo's servant) didn't sport one.
And while the sideways mohawks may have been goofy, they were not actually a species trait (like klingon head ridges), but rather a style of hair worn by the aristocracy. Centari women were bald, and Vir (Londo's servant) didn't sport one.
I'm pretty sure Vir has a sidehawk.
Sort of? He doesn't have the completely shaved front and back of his head that makes it a mohawk like Londo, but yes, he does have the hair fan thing.
And while the sideways mohawks may have been goofy, they were not actually a species trait (like klingon head ridges), but rather a style of hair worn by the aristocracy. Centari women were bald, and Vir (Londo's servant) didn't sport one.
I'm pretty sure Vir has a sidehawk.
Sort of? He doesn't have the completely shaved front and back of his head that makes it a mohawk like Londo, but yes, he does have the hair fan thing.
Londo's head isn't shaved at the back. It's receded at the front.
All Centauri males sport a 'fan', most fairly modestly but they get massive once they get up to senior ranks. It denotes rank and status and is a display in much the same way as a terran peacock, a display of virility, potency and a clear identifier on who gives way to whom . The dying Emperor refuses to don a gigantic fan wig on his visit, being past maintaining the illusion of covering up his baldness and the mad emperor, Cartagia, scandalizes the court by cutting his short in the manner of a low status man, that he might move about the populace and 'indulge' himself in various depraved acts in deprived places.
Here we can see both the back of Londo's hair and Vir's smaller fan, denoting his reduced status.
feeder wrote: I feel that both DS9 and B5 were excellent shows and really the nadir of episodic sci-fi. Everything before was building to it and everything since is disappointing. Of course, these shows were both touchstones of my nerdtastic pubescence, so YMMV.
Zenith...
Anyhow.
B5 was head and shoulders above any Trek, for me, it's story matter, it's scale, it's willingness to tackle the darkest issues of daily life whilst threading together a 5 year story arc on a biblical level. Let's perhaps leave it on the sidelines for discussing Trek against Trek though, it's a different universe and a different show.
DS9 was my favorite Trek, very good characters, a reasonable story arc it's self and some very excellent episodes. 'Duet' and 'In the Pale Moonlight' stand out for me as exemplary. It was freed of Roddenberry's awful choke-hold and allowed to be a smart tv show, allowed to adapt to the new, cynical viewing public, Great characters, Great actors.
..Voyager wasn't, Voyager plodded for many series (the Kazon, whoever imagined these dickheads would be a credible threat in a galaxy of Dominion and Borg...?!?) with terrible stand alone stories and some remarkably bad cast, either characters (neelix, the man-fish-dog in the suit made from 90s hotel curtains and his 'comic relief'...) or actors (Garrett Wang as Harry Quim, should be fired into the nearest sun, the guy was fething awful).
Eventually Voyager fell into a comfortable holy trinity trope in the final series' with the captain, doctor and 7o9 as the trio of important characters and the rest acting as filler, which is more than many of them deserved (Paris, Quim and Chakotay) and less than others should have (Torres, Tuvok). But it lived and died 'playing it safe', even when it finally got better, it got better by adding 'safe' good elements: A great pair of tits and the borg, a familiar and viewer approved bad guy.
Again and again, I keep lamenting that instead of Enterprise, Paramount had had the balls to do the Section 31 show it had mulled over... again, it wimped out and played it safe by making Enterprise, played it safest of all by doing a prequel, trying to tie in as much nostalgia as possible and in doing all the safest things, killed the franchise.
If they'd made it, done the Section 31 show, dark, brooding stuff, the bad people making paradise possible... well, I think we'd still be watching it or it's successor now.
Eventually
Neelix and Harry Kim (and Chakotay) were two of my favorite characters on that show -__-
Lando/G'Kar is probably one of, if not THE, best bromance ever shown on television. The development of those two characters from bitter enemies, to grudging acquaintances, to close friends is incredibly well portrayed. The relationships eventual end is nothing short of amazing.
and probably the most emotional and tearjerking moment in television...
As unpopular as it may have been, Stargate Universe did a much better job of the ship stranded out in the middle of nowhere concept.
Much more "we're screwed" and cast member deaths going on and a realistic (if not very watchable) mental breakdown of almost everyone.
It even represented aliens quite well, with them being genuinely incomprehensible.. if I recall, one race was held in stasis and no-one could understand them, another was a silicon-based swarm race and the most interesting one was simply a weaponized galactic scale super-AI that had been created to win an ancient war and succeeded in killing off everything in the galaxy.
AegisGrimm wrote: I'll always like The Next Generation, but if I was to go out and actually buy or download a Trek series to watch it again, it would be DS9. It was Star Trek written like Babylon Five.
Probably because thats where they stole the idea for it...
scarletsquig wrote: As unpopular as it may have been, Stargate Universe did a much better job of the ship stranded out in the middle of nowhere concept.
Much more "we're screwed" and cast member deaths going on and a realistic (if not very watchable) mental breakdown of almost everyone.
It even represented aliens quite well, with them being genuinely incomprehensible.. if I recall, one race was held in stasis and no-one could understand them, another was a silicon-based swarm race and the most interesting one was simply a weaponized galactic scale super-AI that had been created to win an ancient war and succeeded in killing off everything in the galaxy.
I liked the Stargate series for a different set of reasons (primarily because they didn't portray the Air Force as worthless and inept, and correctly positioned them as the service with responsibility over the Space domain, nice break from the typical "Space Navy" trope), but I had trouble really getting into SGU for some reason. I wanted to like it, I watched most of the first season, but found myself losing interest... just so many poor choices made by various characters for seemingly no real reason other than that it was convenient to the plot, made a lot of the characters and storylines hard to take seriously.
The problem I found with SGU was, aside from about 3 episodes, it was so completely terrible, then by the time season 2 came round, they had fixed the worst bits but it was then too late for the show to be salvaged.
DS9 remains the only Star Trek I have ever purchased, yet I own every episode of SG1 and Atlantis.
Most Star Trek episodes just aren't that rewatchable.
I liked SGU, but not as much as SG or SGA. U was a little too heavily trying to copy BSG I think, but not doing a good enough job. To me the worst crime of U was it being canceled caused the SGA movie to get canceled as well.
