So, it recently came to my attention that the site Dicebucket has been taken down. This happened Sept. 2013, so I'm a bit late, but an article about it on Apocalypse40k brought up some interesting viewpoints. Namely, that supporting your FLGS should be your number one goal. And I think that's fething dumb.
Why? Because we, as customers, do not owe any store anything. If you walk into a Starbucks, you don't have to buy coffee, and you sure as hell don't have to stay in Starbucks to drink it. If I walk into my FLGS, and I buy a box of Devastators, why should I have to also play there? Moreover, if that store doesn't offer my any sort of incentive to keep buying there, why would I? Short answer: I wouldn't.
Long answer: I haven't gotten anything full price from GW in over a year. It's a bit like Michaels (a rather expensive craft store, if you're unfamiliar); never buy at full price. There's always a way to buy for cheaper (michaels sends out huge coupons, some around 50% off), so why don't you? I know a friend of mine hates buying online, so he goes to GW or said FLGS to get his stuff. I have two stores near me: Game Parlor (GP) and Hobby Works (HW).
GP sells w/o discount, but offers a rewards program for those who want it. Each purchase earns you some money (pennies on the dollar), and after a while you can save enough to get something free. I've gotten a DE Warriors box free, though that was 2011.
HW sells with a 15% discount on tuesdays only, because that's 40k day. You play, you get a discount.
Both of these stores have something going for them: some sort of program that allows customers to save a bit of money. If they didn't have those, I can be damn sure that they wouldn't be doing as well as they are. Of course, they sell much more than just 40k stuff, but for GP I know that 40k is their main seller. Incentives that save the customer money are paramount in running a business. So why would someone buy expensive products at full price when they can very easily not? Some sort of store loyalty? Did the store owner guilt trip you into feeling bad because you're ruining his income? No one who understands business just starts a game store and expects people to flock to them without doing anything to earn the flocking. Not just that, but I have bills, a girlfriend, and gas to pay for. Sure, I live close to a game store, but why would I shop there when I can save a little extra money by not driving and simply ordering, at a much larger discount, online?
The post on Apocalypse40k on the incident seemed strangely "stockholm-syndrome." An online retailer was using an online shopping cart and selling things at a great discount, and the author took it upon himself to alert GW to this multiple times. Why? Why try ruin someone's business, even if they were going against GWs retailer rules, when they provide exactly the same service as your FLGS but they simply do it better? Who cares if you use their space but don't buy from them, it's their job to entice you to buy their goods/services, I shouldn't have to out of simple respect, or because I feel guilty for using their space. The space is there for a reason, and just because you don't buy from them doesn't preclude you from using the space to play a game you enjoy.
The last few years have been hard economically for lot of us. I am no exception, and if a shop wants my business, they have to earn it. That's a very simple concept that, apparently, some businesses do not understand. Starbucks makes great coffee (to some people), and so people run to a Starbucks and buy that $5.25 cup of coffee. The company has a reputation of excellent service and excellent products. Games Workshop, on the other had, has the exact opposite reputation. Their products, especially finecast, range from awesome to garbage, and their service has the same variance. Their policies are archaic and draconian, and unlike a large company like starbucks, are only concerned with short term sales because they have no idea who they're actually selling their products to.
If a FLGS wants me to buy at their store, or play at their store, they have to be able to overcome both the preconception that GW policies and prices suck. Most of us enjoy the game and want to keep playing, despite the stupid prices of their models.
However, if you're not spending money at your FLGS, it's kind of hypocritical to expect to be able to play there whenever you want.
If you're the kind of person that plays at home or in private clubs, this obviously doesn't apply to you. However, if you're the kind fo person that likes to go play at a gaming store, it's pretty obnoxious to do so without making any contribution to that store staying open.
You say the space is there for a reason, but apparently have no idea what that reason it. The space is there to encourage people to buy from that store because they give people someplace to play. That's the only reason the space is there. It isn't there just so you can go in and play whenever you want. It is private property. If you're not buying from them, what possible reason does the store have for providing that space?
What you seem completely incapable of understanding is the simple fact that a brick and mortar store has significantly higher overhead than an online retailer. A brick and mortar store cannot offer the same kinds of discounts as a online retailer and stay in business. Similarly, the online retailer doesn't provide any space for you to play, does it?
If you're not spending money at your FLGS, don't start complaining when they move to Magic the Gathering to make money to keep the doors open, and give up the majority of their tables to that game system.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To the OP: I re-read your post. If your position is accurately portrayed by your post, then I'm comfortable in saying you're the kind of "customer" that every single gaming store owner in the USA wishes would never darken their doorway.
McNinja wrote: So, it recently came to my attention that the site Dicebucket has been taken down. This happened Sept. 2013, so I'm a bit late, but an article about it on Apocalypse40k brought up some interesting viewpoints. Namely, that supporting your FLGS should be your number one goal. And I think that's fething dumb.
Why? Because we, as customers, do not owe any store anything.
What % of your games do you play at your FLGS, and what % of your games take place at home, a club, or some other destination.
OP, no one is forcing you to buy from the FLGS, just as no one is forcing the FLGS to let you use their tables just because you want to and feel it's your right, because it isn't.
I buy retail sometimes, because I like buying something at a store and then go home and start using it the same day. Swedish online stores charge way too much shipping, and UK stores take a long time. If I need something now the local GW store is the only option. There is a great FLGS in the area but they stopped stocking GW altogether, otherwise I'd buy all my GW stuff from them.
You buy from whatever source you want. But the store tables are not yours.
If the difference in price is only a few dollars, I'm usually happy to support my FLGS. For no other reason than the ability to go in to a store, talk to someone, look at the models, walk out with them and take them back if there's a problem is worth a few dollars to me over buying something online.
The problem with GW stuff in Australia at least is that the prices are friggin insane, forcing me to look for the cheapest possible option.
I'll still support my FLGS by buying food there and if I happen to be in the store and want something and don't want to wait to go home, order online and get it shipped, I'll just buy it from the FLGS for convenience sake.
It's not because I feel the need to prop up my FLGS. If they can't stay profitable, that's their problem, not mine (it might be my misfortune if I wanted to use their tables, but still not my responsibility to prop them up).
I think we've had this discussion before, if FLGS's are using tables to try and get you to buy models that are more expensive, that's really not a great business plan and it's not our responsibility to uphold their poor business plan. The smarter thing to do would be to charge a few bucks to use the tables and/or maybe a monthly membership fee to cover the costs, and if they want they can give coupons to members to increase model sales as well.
TLDR: It's not my responsibility to keep the FLGS afloat, it's their responsibility to ensure they are conducting their business in a way that keeps them afloat.
SoloFalcon1138 wrote:I assume you don't play in your FLGS? and you don't wish to help support a local business?
I'll support their business if I want to, and no I don't usually play outside my home. Not because I hate people, but because I don't usually have the time. Games I play are usually unscheduled and at random times because of my schedule.
Saldiven wrote:Sure, you can buy where ever you want.
However, if you're not spending money at your FLGS, it's kind of hypocritical to expect to be able to play there whenever you want.
If you're the kind of person that plays at home or in private clubs, this obviously doesn't apply to you. However, if you're the kind fo person that likes to go play at a gaming store, it's pretty obnoxious to do so without making any contribution to that store staying open.
You say the space is there for a reason, but apparently have no idea what that reason it. The space is there to encourage people to buy from that store because they give people someplace to play. That's the only reason the space is there. It isn't there just so you can go in and play whenever you want. It is private property. If you're not buying from them, what possible reason does the store have for providing that space?
What you seem completely incapable of understanding is the simple fact that a brick and mortar store has significantly higher overhead than an online retailer. A brick and mortar store cannot offer the same kinds of discounts as a online retailer and stay in business. Similarly, the online retailer doesn't provide any space for you to play, does it?
If you're not spending money at your FLGS, don't start complaining when they move to Magic the Gathering to make money to keep the doors open, and give up the majority of their tables to that game system.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To the OP: I re-read your post. If your position is accurately portrayed by your post, then I'm comfortable in saying you're the kind of "customer" that every single gaming store owner in the USA wishes would never darken their doorway.
Using open-for-use tables to get people to buy wargaming products is like Starbucks using their tables and chairs to get people to buy coffee. Not a sound business plan in the least.
kronk wrote:
McNinja wrote: So, it recently came to my attention that the site Dicebucket has been taken down. This happened Sept. 2013, so I'm a bit late, but an article about it on Apocalypse40k brought up some interesting viewpoints. Namely, that supporting your FLGS should be your number one goal. And I think that's fething dumb.
Why? Because we, as customers, do not owe any store anything.
What % of your games do you play at your FLGS, and what % of your games take place at home, a club, or some other destination.
Usually my home, but again my schedule as of late has prevented my from doing anything other than texting friends and scheduling a game late at night. The last four games I played were all after 10pm.
fishy bob wrote:OP, no one is forcing you to buy from the FLGS, just as no one is forcing the FLGS to let you use their tables just because you want to and feel it's your right, because it isn't.
I buy retail sometimes, because I like buying something at a store and then go home and start using it the same day. Swedish online stores charge way too much shipping, and UK stores take a long time. If I need something now the local GW store is the only option. There is a great FLGS in the area but they stopped stocking GW altogether, otherwise I'd buy all my GW stuff from them.
You buy from whatever source you want. But the store tables are not yours.
I do not own them, but if they're open for use I can indeed use them. Game Parlor has tables set up permanently, while Hobby Works has plastic tables they put up before and take down after every 40k day is finished.
I have spent probably $500 at Game Parlor and about $100 at Hobby Works. I will "help out" a store when I want to, if I feel like the price is good for the product. You, as a person, aren't responsible for keeping the store afloat. If they can't get their customers to buy things, then they need to re-evaluate their business plan. That's just how it works.
So, what is the point of this thread? To whine? Where do you work, out of curiosity? I'd love to draw some business model comparisons.
As for FLGS: You simply don't understand that FLGS often exist to go beyond just selling. If all they did was sell, they could call it quits and get Walmart to stock models. Or go straight up online (granted, that is much harder now after the updated trade agreements). You also don't understand why Starbucks provide seating. By your arguments, it is apparently a bad idea for fast food places to provide seating too. At the FLGS it's an atmosphere, and a marketing, thing. It gets people to stay, and in the door more often. Go ask some of them why they have tables, instead of spouting attempts at justifying you buying online but feeling entitled to use their space. You are no more entitled than you are to use a McDonalds 'dining room' to eat Subway.
For me I don't think theres any FLGS near me, only option is a GW, which I only visited recently after getting back into painting 40k. I don't see a problem buying there, even though all I see is complaints about GW. How I see it is that if you have the money to spend, and would like to support a business you like, an FLGS for instance, IF you have that choice of course, buy from them sure.
And yeah I can see the thing about expecting to be able to walk in and play on Stores tables when you have never bought from them, to me that just seems kind of rude. You're using their facilities, so I think you should have bought at least one thing from their store at some point.
Imagine if you owned a small sandwich stall, and you have a couple tables right in front of it, then someone walks along and sits at one of them, eating a subway sandwich. That would be pretty annoying.
troa wrote: So, what is the point of this thread? To whine? Where do you work, out of curiosity? I'd love to draw some business model comparisons.
As for FLGS: You simply don't understand that FLGS often exist to go beyond just selling. If all they did was sell, they could call it quits and get Walmart to stock models. Or go straight up online (granted, that is much harder now after the updated trade agreements). You also don't understand why Starbucks provide seating. By your arguments, it is apparently a bad idea for fast food places to provide seating too. At the FLGS it's an atmosphere, and a marketing, thing. It gets people to stay, and in the door more often. Go ask some of them why they have tables, instead of spouting attempts at justifying you buying online but feeling entitled to use their space. You are no more entitled than you are to use a McDonalds 'dining room' to eat Subway.
That's not at all what I'm saying. People buy coffee from starbucks because they enjoy the coffee. If all they wanted to do was sit and sip coffee, they wouldn't go the Starbucks in a very busy mall, get their coffee, and continue shopping. Starbucks has seating and tables because people enjoy that; the atmosphere of most Starbucks is one of friendliness and comfort. You can meet up with friends, grab coffee, catch up, etc, all in the comfort of the store, and if you need more coffee, BAM, good to go. Some people just like to get away.
The same goes with FLGS's. Their main purpose is to sell a product. Tables, chairs, all a luxury, but also a huge boon to their business because people can chill out and meet new people. It is most definitely an atmosphere thing, and I'm not about to deny that. All I am saying is that simply using the tables as your only method of selling products is a bad idea. It shouldn't be your sole method of gaining new customers.
And the point of this thread is to get people's opinions on this sort of things. Perhaps I was a bit too "on the attack," but I'm not here to whine and complain that businesses owe me nothing, just find out why people feel the need to justify spending more than they need to on already expensive products. Supporting a business or shop owner you like is a good enough reason, though not necessarily something I'd do.
The tables at a Starbucks are there for Patrons as are the tables in a FLGS, the only differance being the FlGS is hoping/trusting players that they are going to actually buy there.
I think you have failed in your analogy and come across as a bit of an entitled moaner trying to justify continued use of space without actually supporting that business and the community that grows around it.
So to sum up: hooray for you for doing as you please and feth the poor bugger that will loose his livelyhood if everyone acted as "clued up" as you.
notprop wrote: The tables at a Starbucks are there for Patrons as are the tables in a FLGS, the only differance being the FlGS is hoping/trusting players that they are going to actually buy there.
Of course, but the point I'm trying to make is that simply trusting your patrons to buy from you instead of offering some sort of deal other than "hey you like the game, well I sell stuff for your game and am only 10 minutes away from your house" isn't a magical business plan. Starbucks and FLGSs have tables for patron to use. You are't required to buy things to use them at Starbucks. People buy because they think they're getting a great product at their convenience. There's a starbucks on nearly every corner where I live (there are three within a mile of each other), so it really is convenient, and that is the same reason people like my friend buy at brick-and-mortar stores; its quick to drive ten minutes, buy it, then drive back home, than it is to order it.
I think you have failed in your analogy and come across as a bit of an entitled moaner trying to justify continued use of space without actually supporting that business and the community that grows around it.
So to sum up: hooray for you for doing as you please and feth the poor bugger that will loose his livelyhood if everyone acted as "clued up" as you.
I am not, in any way, trying to say screw anyone over. When I played the game more often, I bought things my closest FLGS. My friends still do, and most don't play there. I do not mean to sound entitled, and for that I apologize.
And the point of this thread is to get people's opinions on this sort of things. Perhaps I was a bit too "on the attack," but I'm not here to whine and complain that businesses owe me nothing, just find out why people feel the need to justify spending more than they need to on already expensive products. Supporting a business or shop owner you like is a good enough reason, though not necessarily something I'd do.
Well I would agree that you sounded on the attack but at least you said you aren't trying to whine Your comparison to Starbucks brings up a point I want to make....Supporting a local business is better than supporting a multinational corporation.
Obviously people want to save money because everyone works hard for their money and wants to squeeze as much out of it as we can, that's why people shop at Walmart because they are cheaper for instance. With a FLGS vs a Games Workshop is that your FLGS is run by someone in a town that wants to make a living but the GW is huge corporation that's going to make its money and won't go belly up.
I don't see why you wouldn't support a local business...even if it's just buying a product here and there while still buying online for greater discounts. I live in a medium sized town with one flgs and the shop owner is a great guy trying to make a living. I buy stuff there because it's good to support local business. I still buy online for about 50% of my stuff even though I never play at the store.
I owe the FLGS nothing as I don't play there often but I want to support local business because that's what people should do, supporting the average joe shop owner is better than a multinational corporation
Rambling on a bit but I am done..just think about supporting local business because people want to make a living every little bit helps in my opinion.
Glaiceana wrote: For me I don't think theres any FLGS near me, only option is a GW, which I only visited recently after getting back into painting 40k. I don't see a problem buying there, even though all I see is complaints about GW. How I see it is that if you have the money to spend, and would like to support a business you like, an FLGS for instance, IF you have that choice of course, buy from them sure. And yeah I can see the thing about expecting to be able to walk in and play on Stores tables when you have never bought from them, to me that just seems kind of rude. You're using their facilities, so I think you should have bought at least one thing from their store at some point.
Imagine if you owned a small sandwich stall, and you have a couple tables right in front of it, then someone walks along and sits at one of them, eating a subway sandwich. That would be pretty annoying.
Not so much annoying as rude, and not something I would do. At the Starbucks my girlfriend used to work at there was a Chipotle across the street, and so people would come and sit at the outdoor tables and chairs and eat. Some would come in and buy drinks others wouldn't.
notprop wrote: The tables at a Starbucks are there for Patrons as are the tables in a FLGS, the only differance being the FlGS is hoping/trusting players that they are going to actually buy there.
Of course, but the point I'm trying to make is that simply trusting your patrons to buy from you instead of offering some sort of deal other than "hey you like the game, well I sell stuff for your game and am only 10 minutes away from your house" isn't a magical business plan. Starbucks and FLGSs have tables for patron to use. You are't required to buy things to use them at Starbucks. People buy because they think they're getting a great product at their convenience. There's a starbucks on nearly every corner where I live (there are three within a mile of each other), so it really is convenient, and that is the same reason people like my friend buy at brick-and-mortar stores; its quick to drive ten minutes, buy it, then drive back home, than it is to order it.
I think you have failed in your analogy and come across as a bit of an entitled moaner trying to justify continued use of space without actually supporting that business and the community that grows around it.
So to sum up: hooray for you for doing as you please and feth the poor bugger that will loose his livelyhood if everyone acted as "clued up" as you.
I am not, in any way, trying to say screw anyone over. When I played the game more often, I bought things my closest FLGS. My friends still do, and most don't play there. I do not mean to sound entitled, and for that I apologize.
Maybe it's different in America, but if you went into a Starbucks in the UK with a cup of coffee in your hand already and then sat on their tables to drink said coffee you would probably be asked to leave.
This is basically what you're doing here, you are going into a store that sells a certain product, to use the facilities that are put out for said product, but are then bringing the product from somewhere else.
Now actually my personal experience is that FLGS are actually kinda OK with this, as long as you are occasionally buying some stuff from the store. But your analogy of using the tables at Starbucks without buying a coffee is total wrong, the better example is the aformentioned bringing a coffee from Costa Coffee (do you have that in the US?) into Starbucks because you like their tables better - I'm fairly sure this would not go down well.
notprop wrote: I have in the past taken a Costa Hot Chocolate to Starbucks before because I prefer their biscotti.
No one knew how to behave that situation in that weirdly awkward British is he/isn't he taking the piss way.
Never again!
Anyway back to your regular programming......
But you bought the Starbucks Biscotti right? Which actually fits nicely into what I said about bringing some stuff from outside into the store. If you're buying something in the store then people tend to be OK with that - but to never buy anything and stlll use the Starbucks/FLGS tables?
Having worked in mobile (cellphone) retail for a substantial part of my working life, this is a constant issue there as well.
People seem to think that because you sell a product, and they own that product, even if that purchase wasn't from you, there is somehow an entitlement that allows them to take your time and experience for free when they have a problem.
My response was simple, I knew an awful lot more when it came to sorting out problems for my own customers than for other people's (funny how that worked out huh?)
Retail is a fine line, you can't disregard someone because they've not bought from you, because that may well preclude them from ever buying from you, neither can you over invest time and resources into a potential customer who is never going to buy. There are no real absolutes when it comes to this, the successful retailer is the one who gets it right most of the time.
I don't think the Starbucks analogy is a good one, too many differences. Starbucks for the most part is pretty simple, but the FLGS thing is more variable.
The FLGS isn't a charity, if they want money for something they need to put a price on it, and that includes table use. I'm not going to try and guess how much playing 1 game on their tables is worth in terms of buying merchandise from them.
How much money do I need to burn at the FLGS before it's no longer rude for me to use the tables?
A couple of paints I could have gotten cheaper elsewhere? A battalion box worth? What if I bought some models 6 months ago and don't need anymore, am I now being rude by still playing on the tables?
That's not a question I should even have to ask, if the FLGS finds customers are using the tables and not buying enough merchandise to make it profitable, they need to take the initiative and change their business model, it's not up to me as the customer to guess how much their table is worth to them.
I think it's because the economic model of FLGS is sort of incoherent now that you can buy things online and hasn't changed to be coherent for a few reasons.
If you're someone who goes to a game store, odds are the thing you get out of it most is the space to play and the community at that store. Yet that's not what you pay for - you pay for the models and such, which are things you can get more conveniently online for less money. I think it's probably bad in general when you're a business providing a primary service but staying afloat on some incidental thing that you can't compete well at.
The FLGS does get benefits out of people playing there, though. If you're in the store, you may spend money there. You may or may not not be spending money today, but you certainly won't be if you're not in there at all. Playing there will probably also increase your engagement with the hobby - for example, lately I haven't been going to a FLGS at all and my miniature spending has dropped to nothing.
There's an additional benefit that gets underrated consistently in these discussions. As free-to-play video games found out, people who play your game but don't pay are still very valuable. They provide opponents and teammates for other people who are paying. As someone who does spend money in FLGS, there's no point me turning up if there's nobody to play with. A healthy community makes me more likely to come and play. Those free players are adding value for the players who are paying.
But, you might say, if the economic model is incoherent, why not change it? I think the answer is that it would be very difficult to charge for tables when other stores are providing them for free; that it would scare away many players, hurting your community and thus reducing the value for the people who would be willing to pay; and that it has some pretty unpleasant mental effects compared to the status quo because "free" is a magical price that doesn't obey the usual laws of mental monetary arithmetic. In the end, it's probably safer to just go with the flow and hope the existing business model can cover it.
Personally, I do spend money at FLGS even though I could save some by buying online, and I do that to support the store, which is providing me a useful service (the space to meet people and tables to play on). The economic model doesn't make sense, and in a way I would rather pay to play there and buy models online, but it is what it is, not what it could be, so I pay my way there.
I never used to buy stuff from my FLGS, and on the few occasions I played there, I'd always give the guy a pound or two towards electricity, or a packet of biscuits if it was Xmas.
Give and take is my approach to these situations, because at the end of the day, the guy has bills to pay, and you don't want to take the mick.
Incentives that save the customer money are paramount in running a business. So why would someone buy expensive products at full price when they can very easily not?
Discounting is not essential or paramount. Discounting does not guarantee loyalty or store success.
Good customer service, friendly/helpful staff.
Clean Store.
Range of product.
These are a minimum I would expect and a real incentive to ensure cash goes into the business.
Having a good clientele will probably seal a purchase as well. if I can meet like minded gamers at a decent location then money is well spent supporting such a locale.
azreal13 wrote:
Retail is a fine line, you can't disregard someone because they've not bought from you, because that may well preclude them from ever buying from you, neither can you over invest time and resources into a potential customer who is never going to buy. There are no real absolutes when it comes to this, the successful retailer is the one who gets it right most of the time.
This is a very valid point, just goes to show how varied this topic can be.
AllSeeingSkink wrote:I don't think the Starbucks analogy is a good one, too many differences. Starbucks for the most part is pretty simple, but the FLGS thing is more variable.
The FLGS isn't a charity, if they want money for something they need to put a price on it, and that includes table use. I'm not going to try and guess how much playing 1 game on their tables is worth in terms of buying merchandise from them.
How much money do I need to burn at the FLGS before it's no longer rude for me to use the tables?
A couple of paints I could have gotten cheaper elsewhere? A battalion box worth? What if I bought some models 6 months ago and don't need anymore, am I now being rude by still playing on the tables?
That's not a question I should even have to ask, if the FLGS finds customers are using the tables and not buying enough merchandise to make it profitable, they need to take the initiative and change their business model, it's not up to me as the customer to guess how much their table is worth to them.
Great point, I agree. Its hard to put worth on a table. I guess most won't in that case, they would just be happy that people are there, and there's got to be quite some worth in people seeing a busy table with games in progress if they happen to be walking past. They would see that and perhaps get the incentive to come in and possibly buy a few products.
So to sum up: hooray for you for doing as you please and feth the poor bugger that will loose his livelyhood if everyone acted as "clued up" as you.
Without wanting to sound callous, if you run a business in a way that isn't economically viable, it's not up to your customers to make up for the deficiencies in your business plan.
Offering tables is a form of marketing. Stores do it in the hope that if people play there, they will buy something while they are there. But that doesn't oblige people who use those tables to buy, any more than watching a TV commercial obliges you to buy that product.
If a store fines that people are playing and not buying, and that is affecting their bottom line, then it's up to them to figure out how to make their business more viable. It's not the customers' job to make a business work.
You can go all amazon on big box stores because they do not offer a 'service' in addition to a 'product', but gaming space is a 'service'. A lot of people will say 'then they need a business model which is viable' but if they charge you for 'table rental' then they will outrage and claim it should be free. The truth is, they have a business model which happens to exclude people who don't place value on table space of gaming in a store.
Which is why tabletop gaming is often evicted for MtG people because they cost less to 'maintain' the tables, are reliable customers and events guarantee sales in the form of booster drafts and blind deck building. With Kickstarter being overall a 'bad thing' for FLGS, pretty much FLGS will adjust their business model and 'wargaming' won't be part of it. Comic book stores went the way of the Dodo, the old days of the FLGS having 30+ people 7 days a week playing warhammer or other games are simply gone.
I highly recommend people try to start a 'club' and see how much it costs to basically 'replicate the services of FLGS open play' with public gaming space for long periods of time, maintaining tables and organizing players and then complain when you spend lots of money and effort and people scoff in your face at 'club dues'. Makes that MSRP on models worth it to the alternative of club organization.
nkelsch wrote: You can go all amazon on big box stores because they do not offer a 'service' in addition to a 'product', but gaming space is a 'service'.
That depends on how you look at it. Alternatively you could view the gaming space as a form of advertising that encourages you to come in and buy stuff.
A lot of people will say 'then they need a business model which is viable' but if they charge you for 'table rental' then they will outrage and claim it should be free. The truth is, they have a business model which happens to exclude people who don't place value on table space of gaming in a store.
There's no "should be free" involved here. If store A has free gaming and store B doesn't then store B is providing an inferior product and I'm going to take my money to store A. The only outrage is over store B providing an inferior product and failing to compete with store A, which can be annoying if I have to drive farther to get to store A.
Which is why tabletop gaming is often evicted for MtG people because they cost less to 'maintain' the tables, are reliable customers and events guarantee sales in the form of booster drafts and blind deck building. With Kickstarter being overall a 'bad thing' for FLGS, pretty much FLGS will adjust their business model and 'wargaming' won't be part of it. Comic book stores went the way of the Dodo, the old days of the FLGS having 30+ people 7 days a week playing warhammer or other games are simply gone.
This is a rather shortsighted view of things that ignores the overlap between communities. Tabletop players also play MTG, and if you drive the "unprofitable" tabletop players away then they're likely to take their MTG money over to your competition as well. You can't just focus on the immediate profit provided by a customer at a given moment and neglect the fact that the more time a potential customer spends in your store the more likely it is that they buy something from you.
Also, I don't know where you live but comic book stores still exist. The game store I play at most frequently also has a substantial comic book business, and it seems to be doing pretty well. And there are also actual comic shops in the area.
So to sum up: hooray for you for doing as you please and feth the poor bugger that will loose his livelyhood if everyone acted as "clued up" as you.
Without wanting to sound callous, if you run a business in a way that isn't economically viable, it's not up to your customers to make up for the deficiencies in your business plan.
Offering tables is a form of marketing. Stores do it in the hope that if people play there, they will buy something while they are there. But that doesn't oblige people who use those tables to buy, any more than watching a TV commercial obliges you to buy that product.
If a store fines that people are playing and not buying, and that is affecting their bottom line, then it's up to them to figure out how to make their business more viable. It's not the customers' job to make a business work.
If they're not buying and wont buy then they're not customers, just a freeloaders using up resources without contributing. I'm sure they are the same knobends who will complain that FLGs X isnt around anymore to get paint/glie while not seeing the link to simultaneously expecting big discounts and only shopping online.
nkelsch wrote: You can go all amazon on big box stores because they do not offer a 'service' in addition to a 'product', but gaming space is a 'service'.
That depends on how you look at it. Alternatively you could view the gaming space as a form of advertising that encourages you to come in and buy stuff.
and sometimes some types of advertising are ineffective and don't provide return on investment. Even if you run gaming space as a loss leader, it has to justify its existence to be effective. The issue is the people who are not 'pay where you play' are basically uncapturable sales as literally nothing you can do in regards to gaming space as 'advertising' and taking a loss can make them shop there. People with the internet mindset want 'internet matching - tax' as a 'starting point' simply due to behavior of being able to go to amazon and get free shipping. A store would have to sell at internet discounts, provide free gaming space and maintain stock to 'browse' for these people to even see them as comparable to their online experience. That is a business model called suicide.
A lot of people will say 'then they need a business model which is viable' but if they charge you for 'table rental' then they will outrage and claim it should be free. The truth is, they have a business model which happens to exclude people who don't place value on table space of gaming in a store.
There's no "should be free" involved here. If store A has free gaming and store B doesn't then store B is providing an inferior product and I'm going to take my money to store A. The only outrage is over store B providing an inferior product and failing to compete with store A, which can be annoying if I have to drive farther to get to store A.
Assuming the two stores have the same price, and assuming you have already decided that neither A or B can get your business for being more than online discounter C. Then all you are deciding is 'which has better, cheaper open gaming for you to mooch. Basically Which steakhouse are you going to take your bag lunch to and order a 'water'.
Which is why tabletop gaming is often evicted for MtG people because they cost less to 'maintain' the tables, are reliable customers and events guarantee sales in the form of booster drafts and blind deck building. With Kickstarter being overall a 'bad thing' for FLGS, pretty much FLGS will adjust their business model and 'wargaming' won't be part of it. Comic book stores went the way of the Dodo, the old days of the FLGS having 30+ people 7 days a week playing warhammer or other games are simply gone.
This is a rather shortsighted view of things that ignores the overlap between communities. Tabletop players also play MTG, and if you drive the "unprofitable" tabletop players away then they're likely to take their MTG money over to your competition as well. You can't just focus on the immediate profit provided by a customer at a given moment and neglect the fact that the more time a potential customer spends in your store the more likely it is that they buy something from you.
You assume that being driven away means to another FLGS. The issue is people who say 'the more time a potential customer spends in your store' are the very people which add to that, 'Except me, I won't spend money, but please, continue to provide me free gaming space because 'someone else' may buy there. That is the issue, is often the MTG people shopping locally are doing so because they don't get nearly the discounts they do from 'online' and they are getting services you can't get online in the form of 'booster drafts' where they have much better chances of getting the rarepicks they need opposed to paying collector internet scalper fee as well as using product purchase as entry into organized play. The game sells itself simply by opening empty tables. In comparison, way more work has to be done for tabletop gaming and a lot more effort and materials for way less pay off.
Also, I don't know where you live but comic book stores still exist. The game store I play at most frequently also has a substantial comic book business, and it seems to be doing pretty well. And there are also actual comic shops in the area.
Yes, and the comic book BUST is a well documented fact. There are maybe 1/20th the number of stores still in existence than 10 years ago and many have had to turn into hybrid businesses and severely downsize to make it profitable. Lots and lots of them failed and folded and even the comic industry is going electronic because collectable physical comics simply are not work crap and those who wish to read and enjoy can get digital subscriptions which make physical copies obsolete as well as allowing people to gain full access to entire backlogs of series for the digital subscription.
Basically boils down to if you value having somewhere to game and a system in place to organize opponents in a default location or not. Sure you can buy food and take it home and cook it yourself for less than eating out, but sometimes you want the convenience and effort of eating out, and you pay extra for that service in the form of mark up on product. Tables in a restaurant are not 'free advertisement for their food'. If you basically go to the store and never by, expect them to ask you to leave or potentially drop the open gaming all together for a more profitable venture.
notprop wrote: If they're not buying and wont buy then they're not customers, just a freeloaders using up resources without contributing.
First of all, if the "freeloader" isn't buying then it's your failure as a business. Why haven't you been able to offer anything at all in your entire store that they want to buy? Why haven't you done a better job of selling your products and made them so excited about a new purchase that they bought it immediately instead of waiting a week for shipping? It seems like the typical "freeloaders" position expects the store owner to be able to put out some gaming tables and a wall of 40k boxes (at full retail price, of course) and everyone is TFG if they don't make a charity donation to the store by buying them.
Second, even people who don't buy contribute to a business. Player A might never buy anything, but they contribute to the store always having lots of people on miniatures night so players B and C, who do buy stuff, come to your store instead of your competition. You take the loss on providing free space to A because you know it leads to better profit elsewhere.
nkelsch wrote: The issue is the people who are not 'pay where you play' are basically uncapturable sales as literally nothing you can do in regards to gaming space as 'advertising' and taking a loss can make them shop there.
So why should we just accept that view instead of blaming the store for failing as a business? Do we need to give charity donations to a for-profit business because the owner can't figure out how to, say, get the internet-buyer to impulse buy some MTG packs, or get them so excited about a new unit for their army that they buy it immediately so they can go home and get straight to work on it without waiting for shipping? It sounds like you want to replace basic retail skills like "convincing people to buy something" with social pressure to give charity donations to business owners who don't have the ability to run a successful business.
You assume that being driven away means to another FLGS.
Well yes, unless you're unfortunate enough to live in an area where there is only one game store within reasonable travel distance, the most likely result of people being driven out of one store means they're going to that store's competition (which will probably be quite happy to get them).
The issue is people who say 'the more time a potential customer spends in your store' are the very people which add to that, 'Except me, I won't spend money, but please, continue to provide me free gaming space because 'someone else' may buy there.
You know, I seem to remember the last thread on this subject involving a successful game store owner being the strongest supporter of that position.
That is the issue, is often the MTG people shopping locally are doing so because they don't get nearly the discounts they do from 'online' and they are getting services you can't get online in the form of 'booster drafts' where they have much better chances of getting the rarepicks they need opposed to paying collector internet scalper fee as well as using product purchase as entry into organized play. The game sells itself simply by opening empty tables. In comparison, way more work has to be done for tabletop gaming and a lot more effort and materials for way less pay off.
Sure, but whatever that reason may be do you really want to drive the "unprofitable" miniatures players over to a competing store and have them take their MTG money with them? If store A has only MTG and store B has MTG and miniatures then it's a pretty good assumption that store B is going to have the bigger and more profitable MTG community. Even if you aren't making much money off the miniatures business you still run it because it gets MTG players into your store.
Yes, and the comic book BUST is a well documented fact.
But the important question here is WHY did those stores fail. Did they fail because of "leeches" who came in and read comics without ever buying, or did they fail because comic books in general became less popular and the industry could no longer support that many stores? You can't just say "look at what happened to the comic stores" without considering whether the reasons are similar enough to make the comparison relevant.
If you basically go to the store and never by, expect them to ask you to leave or potentially drop the open gaming all together for a more profitable venture.
Sure, ask the players to leave. This isn't some moral right to free gaming here. Just be prepared to watch your whole community go over to a competing store, including the paying customers who follow their "leeching" friends.
If they're not buying and wont buy then they're not customers, just a freeloaders using up resources without contributing.
Call them what you like, it doesn't change the fact that retail is a one-way street. The business offers a service, the customer either makes use of that service, or doesn't. If the business chooses not to charge for a given service, that doesn't put the person making use of that service under an obligation to buy something else.
Again, marketing is supposed to encourage you to spend money. It doesn't make it a requirement.
If stores don't want 'freeloaders' using their tables, they can require a purchase, our implement a hire charge for the table, or concentrate on running organised, entry-fee events. Offering free table space is a choice they make... And it is up to them, not the customer, to make that work within their chosen business model.
The guilt tripping that goes on about "supporting your local store" is kinda silly. I don't have any fething local stores. Why the hell shouldn't I seek out the best price available to me?
I actually start with the same basic concept as the OP but end up in a very different place.
Yes, stores have to earn my business but since I move around every couple of years due to work, a new community I can integrate into is worth much more than what I can save online. I recently moved after having to take a year off gaming altogether because I was largely in a wasteland when it came to a store with a good community and trust me that sucked. So currently I drive an extra 15 minutes past a store with a rewards program to go a different store because on the weekend (when I can game) I'm far more likely to get a pickup game in at my new hangout and I usually buy something gaming related while I'm there. While I agree with HBMC that "supporting your local store is kinda silly", I do think "supporting the store where you play" is part of a social compact.
McNinja wrote: So, it recently came to my attention that the site Dicebucket has been taken down. This happened Sept. 2013, so I'm a bit late, but an article about it on Apocalypse40k brought up some interesting viewpoints. Namely, that supporting your FLGS should be your number one goal. And I think that's fething dumb.
Why? Because we, as customers, do not owe any store anything.
What % of your games do you play at your FLGS, and what % of your games take place at home, a club, or some other destination.
Usually my home, but again my schedule as of late has prevented my from doing anything other than texting friends and scheduling a game late at night. The last four games I played were all after 10pm.
If you never play at the store, then you don't HAVE to buy from them. Carry on, young man.
I've met some pretty cool gamers at my local FLGS since I've moved to Northern IL, so I buy from them so that I can meet more people there. Self interest and all that jazz.
H.B.M.C. wrote: The guilt tripping that goes on about "supporting your local store" is kinda silly. I don't have any fething local stores. Why the hell shouldn't I seek out the best price available to me?
If you don't game at a FLGS, then obviously you have no reason to spend money at one.
The only issue is that class of gamer who purchases everything online and then takes all that material to a gaming store to use their tables and their terrain and the community that they have built up to find opponents.
Gaming stores don't have gaming tables and playing space as some sort of public service.
I read a lot of the posts, and several people are claiming that if a person is buying online instead of at the store, it's because of some sort of failure by the store.
I'm curious. What, exactly, could the store do to get a person who chooses to buy online for the discounts to instead buy at the store? Keep in mind, the store cannot offer those same discounts because of the overhead involved with having a physical store presence as well as providing materials like gaming tables, terrain, staffing, etc.
Saldiven wrote: I'm curious. What, exactly, could the store do to get a person who chooses to buy online for the discounts to instead buy at the store? Keep in mind, the store cannot offer those same discounts because of the overhead involved with having a physical store presence as well as providing materials like gaming tables, terrain, staffing, etc.
If the store is unable to match online prices, then they need to encourage people to spend money in the store some other way. Loyalty programs, painting/modeling comps requiring a purchase, tournaments or campaigns, snacks and drinks...
Ultimately, it's up to the store whether or not they have an issue with people using their tables without buying from the store. If they have a problem with it, they can either encourage those people to spend money one way or another, or they can just stop those people from using their tables. Yes, that might get complaints... but if someone who doesn't spend any money in your store storms out and never returns because you want to charge them to use your tables, that's not really a massive loss...
These are not issues that are unique to hobby/wargaming stores, they are issues that face nearly every physical store on the planet these days.
Insaniak's response is the correct one though, the way to fight back is through added value, whether that be providing an environment to game in, expert advice, large range, loyalty points, whatever.
But a retailer has to accept that while many consumers will be happy to enter an implied quid pro quo arrangement for non-cost services they may provide, an element of the public at large are quite happy to take advantage of anything they see as offered "for free" with little remorse or conscience.
I certainly consider this douchebaggery, I've spent too long behind the counter and dealt with it too much to have any degree of sympathy for anyone who does this, BUT the onus is still on the retailer to protect themselves from this behaviour. Retail is a service industry, at least it is when done right, and you can't simply throw freeloaders out (and believe me, after over a decade, I know in 30 seconds, even without interacting with you, whether you've got a serious interest in making a purchase or not) as much as you'd like to.
As I've said, there are no absolutes, and managing this sort of behaviour varies almost on a customer by (non) customer basis.
I would love to now the average age of these people posting here, because they do not live in the real world.
A store, on average, has to make about $30k a month to break even. Take away slightly more than half of that for stock costs, the rest is monthly bills that are not making you direct profit (taxes, wages, rent etc)
If you think a store can live only on the incidentals you are purchasing, paint pots and snack for eg, your store is either going to go away, or drop the majority of gaming space for mtg.
If you play in a store, you buy there, if you don't play there, buy wherever you please, but don't moan when you can't find a game outside your group of 4 friends because there is nowhere to go play.
While largely agree with the spirit of your post Sgt Horse, I'm intrigued as to how you think a store needs to turn over $360 000 a year to break even?
Because I own a store, and know the costs. Bear in mind, that's also giving a wage to the owner enough to live on, ie running it as a business and not a side hobby
Rent
Wages
Tax (sales and payroll)
Power
Phone
Internet
Website
Advertising
Cost of goods
Licenses
Trash
Of the top of my head, that's some of the monthly costs
My store also has added food costs as we run a cafe as well inside
Well, perhaps in your specific case, but you're advocating a little on the high side for the UK.
Averaging $800 a day turnover would be something that few stores would be likely to achieve outside of one or two notable retailers with substantial online footprints.
EDIT
Ok, I was getting a little snarled up with conversion rates, yes, I guess £500 a day isn't beyond the pail, but in my experience of spending time in a few typical UKFLGS (and running my own store, albeit not hobby related) down the years, averaging that would still be tough here in the UK. Factor in that the UK scene is mainly one man bands, so while saving wages it also increases the time the store is closed, and I think you'd be surprised with how little a lot of these guys are managing on.
I could certainly find you some (admittedly small) retail units in my area which would probably cost around $25k a year to rent and operate with utilities, certainly I had one myself for a bit, but I suspect we have different ideas of the shape of the businesses at this point.
Well, it may be the difference bet weeny the us and the uk, but the point still stands. It costs a lot to run a business.
I don't know the min wage in the uk, but here it is 7.50 or so. So if I have an employee run a campaign for 3 hours a night, once a week, for say, a month, that comes to just about $100 in wages and then add FICA match. If every person pays in $5 for that campaign, I'd need 20 people just to cover his wages, before factoring in any other cost. Now let's assume that those people each spend another $5, since someone said the average should be $10 per person. I have used a lot of re sources to make $100 and still have to pay my bills.
It is on a store to build a community for sure, and to get people in, but people need to recognise this and support what's going on with more than a paint pot, or else it's going away.
I had a day today with 60+ Wargamers in my store. I had a great day as we have an amazing community here in Atlanta, it's taken 6 years to build on this as a gaming store, and not just a card store with some small amount of minis, and a large part goes to having a group of people that understand that paying a little more for models, gets them a whole lot more when it comes to their hobby experience
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh I can imagine, i did it myself for a few years
Automatically Appended Next Post: Admittedly, my experience is different to a lot, I have a larger store, in a better part of of own, so costs can be higher, but I factor that in in that I am getting people more likely to be able to afford our hobby. You could prob knock $5-7k off and run a smaller bus, but then it's still a large order as you do not have as much stock. Of that $30k I quoted, at least $17-18 is towards restocking
Automatically Appended Next Post: A couple of cases of magic alone will get you near $1k
I sold cellphones, one iphone, even at wholesale, would be approaching $700!
The beauty was (if I got it right) is my terms from the supplier were the same as my terms with the payment of subsidies from the networks for the connections I did, so I often didn't technically pay for the handset until I'd earned the income from it, coupled with a next day delivery, no minimum order facility and I was able to run quite lean on the high end stuff. The only stock I had to hold in store in any quantity was accessories, which were very cheap, and a few, key, popular models of phone.
Even then, with a computer monitored inventory/restocking system, it was near impossible to get the balance right, so when your business relies on holding a ton more stock than I ever had to, you have my sympathies (especially around inventory time)
Ah it's grand, I enjoy the ordering myself, and the only product range I stock enmasse is 40k, Warmachine and board games, the rest are core items and starters. We just have a lot of systems.
For me the only reason to NOT support the FLGS is that some online retailers offer a discount (you have to call now usually though). With GW prices crazy expensive anything to save money helps so if I have the option of paying full retail at my FLGS or getting 20% off by ordering from a place like The Warstore, then discount trumps everything unless it's an item I need immediately and can't wait to receive. That's called being budget conscious and in a game where the company price gouges mercilessly that's a valid concern for most purchases.
I was going to type a long well written response but due to everyone else beating me to the punch and the fact that I don't think it would sway the OP anyways I'll just say this.
I buy things at my FLGS's because I use their tables and I want to keep being able to use their tables. I have no "guilt" in the matter, I just realize that if I don't buy anything from them, then I can't expect them to keep their tables around. That much extra space costs money, both in rent and in potential sales space. If everyone just hunts for the cheapest possible deal, they will lose the local store eventually. FLGS's can never get their prices as low as some online stores have and even if they did, their profit margin would be so low they'd be out of business in months.
Part of paying more at a FLGS (and usually, the price difference is fairly minor, at maybe 10-15% tops) is that they're providing a (hopefully) well maintained space to play, with snacks, tournaments, and a well established community. Considering that a good store usually isn't too much more than the average online retailer, you're paying a very small price to help ensure you have a place to play. To me that's worth it. I'll pay a dollar extra for a mini if it means I can keep using a space with 15 tables stocked with heaps of terrain, well lit and clean play area, cheap snacks, a friendly community, and a spot that's close to good restaurants and will let you eat while you play.
If you only play at home or a club or the LGS is really crappy or doesn't provide tables, then of course none of this applies to you. In that case go nuts, buy from whoever you want.
It just annoys the heck out of me when people buy online to save a few bucks exclusively, then wonder why the store they play at every week goes under. One order every few months isn't what causes this, and its never just one person at fault. What kills the store is when multiple people are all doing it, and think 10$ of paint and a soda makes up for the $500 they spent online. One of my FLGS's is dying this death right now, and the other one is feeling the effects, so this topic kind of hit a nerve, sorry.
Like I said earlier, if you don't play at the store but once in a blue moon or something, that doesn't bug me. What bugs me is the guy who shows up every week, buys a pot of paint, and thinks that's totally going to keep the lights on when he bought a $100 of models online, instead of a $110 in store. Then he gets pissy when the store's hours shorten, or lines stop being carried, or the store is moved to a smaller area. That store was providing a service, and if he can't be bothered to pay a small bit extra, he shouldn't be surprised when that service goes away. That 10% you saved over buying at the FLGS wasn't a straight up comparison, that extra 10% is what keeps the tables stocked with terrain, what helps that store keep getting prize support and volunteers to run tourneys, etc. Etc.
Most stores don't make revenue from GW products though, I thought. My FLGS just moved to a HUGE new store and I think the highest selling thing is Magic.
Don't be daft, its a poor store indeed that doesn't make profit from a line of product - if they didn't then why sell it? And certainly not where it's the biggest line in this little wargaming niche. Don't forget that most stores will be buying GW in at 45% off RRP.
Magic sells to a CCG crown and GW to a wargames crowd. The two are more than likely not the same peeps.
WayneTheGame wrote: Most stores don't make revenue from GW products though, I thought. My FLGS just moved to a HUGE new store and I think the highest selling thing is Magic.
Only a moron carries a line that doesn't make revenue.
It wouldn't occur to me to use an FLGS' facilities if I wasn't some form of cash over the counter customer of theirs. Whether that is due to an over-developed personal sense of "fair" or me being daft, who knows?
On the other hand it wouldn't bother me to game with GW products bought from an FLGS in a GW store. Simply put, its GW's product and they will have had some of my money from those purchases.
In Azreal13's earlier example, I wouldn't go to a random independent phone shop for free advice on problems with a product I'd bought elsewhere because I wouldn't view it as that shop's problem.
I consider myself lucky that, until now, I've never worked in retail. I think I'd have problems with the "The Customer is always right" mantra.
WayneTheGame wrote: Most stores don't make revenue from GW products though, I thought. My FLGS just moved to a HUGE new store and I think the highest selling thing is Magic.
Only a moron carries a line that doesn't make revenue.
There are stores that carry GW direct only stuff and Forge World for no profit just to be good blokes. He might have gotten that mixed up.
Business have "free" things, like Starbucks free wifi and tables, or an FLGS open tables, to entice you into the store. They're not "free" for you to use, you're only using them at the pleasure of the business. They can, by law in the US, ask you to leave if they wish. They can tell you that you cannot use them.
So to answer the question, why support FLGS? In many cases, its the only place with open tables for local people to play at. If no one supported the business, the business could not provide a space for people to play at, then those people would have nowhere to play. It's fine and dandy that YOU have a place to play that is not your FLGS, but in many places, that is not the case.
Hence why people support their local business.
I doubt this reasoning will penetrate your narcissism though.
I'm of the idea that if I plan to go to a local gaming store and utilize the 'ability' to play there (service, marketing idea...who the feth cares what you want it to translate into) you are relying on that ability in some degree. Depending on how much you 'rely' on that to be there should effect how much you are willing to spend extra to support that 'ability'.
If you think it's a free item that doesn't value you to spend money to keep...then you shouldn't need to use it. And if you still use it and spend nothing, you're a d-bag...sorry...you just are.
The major difference in opinion here is entitlement versus earned reward. Some people think things should be handed to them and will take anything they can. Other have a sense of self-respect, respect for others, and honor....and don't act in such a way.
Business have "free" things, like Starbucks free wifi and tables, or an FLGS open tables, to entice you into the store. They're not "free" for you to use, you're only using them at the pleasure of the business. They can, by law in the US, ask you to leave if they wish. They can tell you that you cannot use them.
So to answer the question, why support FLGS? In many cases, its the only place with open tables for local people to play at. If no one supported the business, the business could not provide a space for people to play at, then those people would have nowhere to play. It's fine and dandy that YOU have a place to play that is not your FLGS, but in many places, that is not the case.
Hence why people support their local business.
I doubt this reasoning will penetrate your narcissism though.
Yeah, but Starbucks are a mega corp who can afford loss leaders such as free Wi-Fi to get people in the door.
personally, I think the day of the FLGS will soon be over. I like FLGS, and whenever I've been in one, I've always bunged the owner a couple of quid if I've played on the tables (even if I hadn't bought anything)
But cheap online deals, the me me me attitude amongst some gamers, which is depressingly becoming more and more common these days, will be the nails in the FLGS coffin.
WayneTheGame wrote: Most stores don't make revenue from GW products though, I thought. My FLGS just moved to a HUGE new store and I think the highest selling thing is Magic.
Only a moron carries a line that doesn't make revenue.
There are stores that carry GW direct only stuff and Forge World for no profit just to be good blokes. He might have gotten that mixed up.
Direct gives you a discount, just not as much as normal.
Saldiven wrote: I'm curious. What, exactly, could the store do to get a person who chooses to buy online for the discounts to instead buy at the store? Keep in mind, the store cannot offer those same discounts because of the overhead involved with having a physical store presence as well as providing materials like gaming tables, terrain, staffing, etc.
If the store is unable to match online prices, then they need to encourage people to spend money in the store some other way. Loyalty programs, painting/modeling comps requiring a purchase, tournaments or campaigns, snacks and drinks...
Ultimately, it's up to the store whether or not they have an issue with people using their tables without buying from the store. If they have a problem with it, they can either encourage those people to spend money one way or another, or they can just stop those people from using their tables. Yes, that might get complaints... but if someone who doesn't spend any money in your store storms out and never returns because you want to charge them to use your tables, that's not really a massive loss...
I don't think loyalty programmes cut the mustard these days as nobody is that loyal. It takes ages to build up a decent discount, but most people would argue that you could buy cheaper online. As for snacks and drinks, it's hard to compete with supermarkets.
I agree with the gist of your post that creative solutions are needed, but like I said, the day of the FLGS is heading the way of the Titanic.
Business have "free" things, like Starbucks free wifi and tables, or an FLGS open tables, to entice you into the store. They're not "free" for you to use, you're only using them at the pleasure of the business. They can, by law in the US, ask you to leave if they wish. They can tell you that you cannot use them.
So to answer the question, why support FLGS? In many cases, its the only place with open tables for local people to play at. If no one supported the business, the business could not provide a space for people to play at, then those people would have nowhere to play. It's fine and dandy that YOU have a place to play that is not your FLGS, but in many places, that is not the case.
Hence why people support their local business.
I doubt this reasoning will penetrate your narcissism though.
Yeah, but Starbucks are a mega corp who can afford loss leaders such as free Wi-Fi to get people in the door.
personally, I think the day of the FLGS will soon be over. I like FLGS, and whenever I've been in one, I've always bunged the owner a couple of quid if I've played on the tables (even if I hadn't bought anything)
But cheap online deals, the me me me attitude amongst some gamers, which is depressingly becoming more and more common these days, will be the nails in the FLGS coffin.
I don't think that. I think there will always be a place for good stores to thrive. People need a place to go and meet other gamers, I for one am not somebody who is going to answer your post on craigslist to go game at your house I do though, think that a lot of stores will close, since it requires a lot more work (comparative to other small business) for less reward, and alot of people don't get that
Business have "free" things, like Starbucks free wifi and tables, or an FLGS open tables, to entice you into the store. They're not "free" for you to use, you're only using them at the pleasure of the business. They can, by law in the US, ask you to leave if they wish. They can tell you that you cannot use them.
So to answer the question, why support FLGS? In many cases, its the only place with open tables for local people to play at. If no one supported the business, the business could not provide a space for people to play at, then those people would have nowhere to play. It's fine and dandy that YOU have a place to play that is not your FLGS, but in many places, that is not the case.
Hence why people support their local business.
I doubt this reasoning will penetrate your narcissism though.
Yeah, but Starbucks are a mega corp who can afford loss leaders such as free Wi-Fi to get people in the door.
personally, I think the day of the FLGS will soon be over. I like FLGS, and whenever I've been in one, I've always bunged the owner a couple of quid if I've played on the tables (even if I hadn't bought anything)
But cheap online deals, the me me me attitude amongst some gamers, which is depressingly becoming more and more common these days, will be the nails in the FLGS coffin.
I don't think that. I think there will always be a place for good stores to thrive. People need a place to go and meet other gamers, I for one am not somebody who is going to answer your post on craigslist to go game at your house I do though, think that a lot of stores will close, since it requires a lot more work (comparative to other small business) for less reward, and alot of people don't get that
In my area, gaming clubs seem to be more popular. It's far cheaper for everybody to pitch in 2-3 quid, once a week, and hire some community hall.
There are some good stores out there, but they seem to be rarer than hen's teeth these days.
To the OP, I'm not really understanding the issue that you have. Are you mad about the coffee, or are you mad about your Local Game store?
The tables in a game store are for... gaming. Because, you know... they sell games, maybe you get someone walking in, seeing what everyones doing in there, and wants to try a few rounds, or try a new game or whatever.
Difference with a LGS and GW? Different games. You play in the store if your having a good time, I guess. It isn't always about the sale. Of course if you have a FLGS with a group of mutts, it doesn't take much to ruin a good thing.
In case you haven't been outside much, EVERYTHING with a price is increasing. It is well past the days when you could drop a five or ten and have a squad or two of metal figures and use the shops paints and have a good time just talking shop with the mates on a saturday afternoon.
That's the problem, though. Gaming is a social activity, irregardless of the ME,ME,ME ideas that someone has spouted off as the new normal.
It's not hard. You don't have to drink starschmucks to get the irony that your selling here.
( yeah, I was going to post it in its full glory.... But remembered the new and improved family TV environment you are trying to sell these days. )
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: In my area, gaming clubs seem to be more popular. It's far cheaper for everybody to pitch in 2-3 quid, once a week, and hire some community hall.
There are some good stores out there, but they seem to be rarer than hen's teeth these days.
My house is too small for wargaming so
This is a big difference between the USA and the UK. FLGS (independent) are far more common here than in the UK, while in the UK, GW stores are far more common than an independent store.
The independent FLGS has been a part of gaming in the USA for longer than 40K has existed. They sprung forth from comic book, hobby, and baseball card stores back in the late 1970's and early 1980's. There's a pretty strong tradition of independent gaming stores here. There are more gaming clubs centered around a FLGS than there are independent groups that meet at someone's home or rent out a space somewhere. Heck, at Sgt. Horse's place, there are at least three different clubs that meet at his place on a regular (weekly or monthly) basis.
Well like I said I support my FLGS (when I've had one) with "impulse buys" but given the ever-increasing cost of GW products, the temptation of saving 20% via online deals is greater and greater because I can get more models with the money I save, or situations where for example I use Vallejo paints and the store only stocks Citadel; I certainly wouldn't pay more for inferior paints just to support the game store.
I'm all for supporting a local store, but this hobby continues to get more and more expensive, so if it boils down to spending $80 versus $64 for the same thing, when you add up a few of those discounts you end up being able to buy an additional thing.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: In my area, gaming clubs seem to be more popular. It's far cheaper for everybody to pitch in 2-3 quid, once a week, and hire some community hall.
There are some good stores out there, but they seem to be rarer than hen's teeth these days.
My house is too small for wargaming so
This is a big difference between the USA and the UK. FLGS (independent) are far more common here than in the UK, while in the UK, GW stores are far more common than an independent store.
The independent FLGS has been a part of gaming in the USA for longer than 40K has existed. They sprung forth from comic book, hobby, and baseball card stores back in the late 1970's and early 1980's. There's a pretty strong tradition of independent gaming stores here. There are more gaming clubs centered around a FLGS than there are independent groups that meet at someone's home or rent out a space somewhere. Heck, at Sgt. Horse's place, there are at least three different clubs that meet at his place on a regular (weekly or monthly) basis.
Don't get me wrong, I like FLGS, but I'm a realist. This is the digital age of 24hr news, ipads, and fast food culture. People want it all, and they want it now. I don't think people have much [atience for wargaming these days (which is a shame) and as a result, the hobby, and local gaming stores, will decline and fade away.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: In my area, gaming clubs seem to be more popular. It's far cheaper for everybody to pitch in 2-3 quid, once a week, and hire some community hall.
There are some good stores out there, but they seem to be rarer than hen's teeth these days.
My house is too small for wargaming so
This is a big difference between the USA and the UK. FLGS (independent) are far more common here than in the UK, while in the UK, GW stores are far more common than an independent store.
The independent FLGS has been a part of gaming in the USA for longer than 40K has existed. They sprung forth from comic book, hobby, and baseball card stores back in the late 1970's and early 1980's. There's a pretty strong tradition of independent gaming stores here. There are more gaming clubs centered around a FLGS than there are independent groups that meet at someone's home or rent out a space somewhere. Heck, at Sgt. Horse's place, there are at least three different clubs that meet at his place on a regular (weekly or monthly) basis.
Don't get me wrong, I like FLGS, but I'm a realist. This is the digital age of 24hr news, ipads, and fast food culture. People want it all, and they want it now. I don't think people have much [atience for wargaming these days (which is a shame) and as a result, the hobby, and local gaming stores, will decline and fade away.
That might be the case in the UK, but is hardly likely in the USA, at least not for a significantly longer time. As I've pointed out, the model for finding gaming opportunities in the USA is very different from the UK. In the UK, there are very few independent gaming stores, GW stores are everywhere, and gaming clubs that spend their own money to rent out spaces to play periodically are somewhat common. In the USA, FLGS are very common, GW stores are very uncommon, and independent gaming groups that spend their own money to rent gaming space are almost unheard of (most such clubs meet in a member's home rather than spending money to rent a space).
In the USA, gaming clubs use the FLGS as a place to both find new people to play and as a location to hold their games. Rentable public places to play games for a reasonable amount of money are relatively uncommon here, and the spaces that are affordable are often restrictive in their usages (church spaces), restricted in who can use them (YMCA, Boys & Girls Club, etc.) or seriously lacking in any sort of amenity (public community centers). Typically, the only groups that have easy access to affordable gaming space are university students who attend a school that has space for student organizations to meet.
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WayneTheGame wrote: I'm all for supporting a local store, but this hobby continues to get more and more expensive, so if it boils down to spending $80 versus $64 for the same thing, when you add up a few of those discounts you end up being able to buy an additional thing.
Does that online vendor provide a place for you to use that extra "thing" you bought?
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: In my area, gaming clubs seem to be more popular. It's far cheaper for everybody to pitch in 2-3 quid, once a week, and hire some community hall.
There are some good stores out there, but they seem to be rarer than hen's teeth these days.
My house is too small for wargaming so
This is a big difference between the USA and the UK. FLGS (independent) are far more common here than in the UK, while in the UK, GW stores are far more common than an independent store.
The independent FLGS has been a part of gaming in the USA for longer than 40K has existed. They sprung forth from comic book, hobby, and baseball card stores back in the late 1970's and early 1980's. There's a pretty strong tradition of independent gaming stores here. There are more gaming clubs centered around a FLGS than there are independent groups that meet at someone's home or rent out a space somewhere. Heck, at Sgt. Horse's place, there are at least three different clubs that meet at his place on a regular (weekly or monthly) basis.
Don't get me wrong, I like FLGS, but I'm a realist. This is the digital age of 24hr news, ipads, and fast food culture. People want it all, and they want it now. I don't think people have much [atience for wargaming these days (which is a shame) and as a result, the hobby, and local gaming stores, will decline and fade away.
There's a peculiar dichotomy in your point there, people want things right this minute, yet you feel that stores that don't require several days (at best) to deliver the goods are on their way out?
The hobby is anything but declining if the best information we have to go in is to be believed, but the high street is getting less and less tolerant of poor businesses, regardless of their market. I'd contend we are perhaps in a period of transition, rather than decline, but I wouldn't want to be drawn on how the landscape will look in a few years just at this moment.
Saldiven wrote: Does that online vendor provide a place for you to use that extra "thing" you bought?
So your argument is that you should pay more simply because the FLGS has tables? While I don't disagree, given the price a discount tends to be the most important thing when it comes to buying items, because of the cost alone. That's not to say I don't buy anything from the FLGS; I'm as likely to go there just to shoot the breeze and chat, and something catches my eye and I buy it because it's right there. For controlled or bulk purchases though I'm more likely to buy from eBay or an online retailer with a good discount, because of the already high price that I'm paying. For instance if I'm putting in a $200 order I'd rather save $40 and put that towards an additional model (possibly bought at the FLGS) than spend $200 just so I can give the FLGS my business out of some perceived guilt over playing there with models bought elsewhere.
Ahhh, the good old. "FLGS needs to give me a 50% discount on everything or they should be shut down" thread. What a freeloading entitled nation we've become.
Saldiven wrote: Does that online vendor provide a place for you to use that extra "thing" you bought?
So your argument is that you should pay more simply because the FLGS has tables? While I don't disagree, given the price a discount tends to be the most important thing when it comes to buying items, because of the cost alone. That's not to say I don't buy anything from the FLGS; I'm as likely to go there just to shoot the breeze and chat, and something catches my eye and I buy it because it's right there. For controlled or bulk purchases though I'm more likely to buy from eBay or an online retailer with a good discount, because of the already high price that I'm paying. For instance if I'm putting in a $200 order I'd rather save $40 and put that towards an additional model (possibly bought at the FLGS) than spend $200 just so I can give the FLGS my business out of some perceived guilt over playing there with models bought elsewhere.
This is what's wrong with the world today.
Would you rather a store give you the same discount and NOT offer you a place to play? Is that it?
It's actually insulting for you to post "Oh I'll buy everything online, and the money I save, I "might" throw towards the store."
Perhaps, but with the insane cost of models trying to save money is tantamount. It was another story entirely when it was like $25 for a box of 10 guys; I had zero problem buying exclusively at the game store. When the price has almost doubled, spending close to $50 on the same 10 guys is a bit ridiculous, especially when you need 2-3 of them.
I find it more insulting this notion of "The store provides you with a place to play so it's unfaithful to shop anywhere else" as though it should be some kind of obligation.
WayneTheGame wrote: Perhaps, but with the insane cost of models trying to save money is tantamount. It was another story entirely when it was like $25 for a box of 10 guys; I had zero problem buying exclusively at the game store. When the price has almost doubled, spending close to $50 on the same 10 guys is a bit ridiculous, especially when you need 2-3 of them.
I find it more insulting this notion of "The store provides you with a place to play so it's unfaithful to shop anywhere else" as though it should be some kind of obligation.
Yet you don't complain about the price of gas, bread, movie tickets or anything else doubling.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Who said anything about it being unfaithful. It's a truth that you will buy elsewhere, that's going to happen, but people need to be aware that if they want a place to game, then yes, they have to support it. And don't try to console yourself with "oh I'll buy a pot of paint once in a while, that'll help."
Again, if you DON'T play there, only play there once in a blue moon, then whatever, but if it's your MAIN playspace, then for gods sake, support it.
WayneTheGame wrote: Perhaps, but with the insane cost of models trying to save money is tantamount. It was another story entirely when it was like $25 for a box of 10 guys; I had zero problem buying exclusively at the game store. When the price has almost doubled, spending close to $50 on the same 10 guys is a bit ridiculous, especially when you need 2-3 of them.
I find it more insulting this notion of "The store provides you with a place to play so it's unfaithful to shop anywhere else" as though it should be some kind of obligation.
So why should a gaming store provide you gaming space if you don't shop there? What if everyone in your local area thinks like you do? Being a parasite is nice when the host is healthy. When there are too many parasites, the host dies or purges the parasites. Both result in you having no place to game. It isn't that you HAVE to support the FLGS... if you don't play there, then internet discount your ass off. But if you play there, the 20% you pay compared to internet discounters is basically a form of 'tipping' for providing you a place to be and good service.
"If you can't afford to tip 20% when you go out to eat, you can't afford to eat out. Stay home and cook in the kitchen."
"If you can't afford MSRP and forgoing the 20% online discounters price, you can't afford to play in public FLGS, Stay home and play in your basement."
Hence why FLGS are moving forward to killing 'open play' for wargamers and replacing everything with MTG and having 'open play' only on a weeknight or when they have organized events with entry fees to guarantee recoup of costs. the MTG customer base appreciates the place to play and has no problem dropping dime for entry fees or gaming space. Makes pay to play super easy and they accept it.
If your store shuts down and you have nowhere to game, then don't complain about it if you didn't 'pay where you play'.
WayneTheGame wrote: ...... ...............I find it more insulting this notion of "The store provides you with a place to play so it's unfaithful to shop anywhere else" as though it should be some kind of obligation.
You are easily insulted.
I think you misunderstand it's not that you are obligated but you may find that you do not have a FLGs if you buy online. It may be that you prefer deep discount over convenience and utility (most don't ergo the existence of convenience stores when it is cheaper at a supermarket) but many do not and are happy to buy at a premium to have such a place on hand.
Also and I think this is most important FLGs/GW/whatever generally are the hub of the gaming community and effectively create new players and draw in the fresh blood that small groups need to continue.
Half price mini's are great but not so useful with fewer/no people to play against. So in this respect you are also helping yourself but supporting a games store especially in the US where you are more FLGs-centric.
Buy where you get the best service (you'd hope this was a FLGS, but unfortunately I think it might still be online in a good 50% of cases)
or
Buy where you can get the product you want...major ranges are easy, but for niche products you may find online or a special, delayed, order are your only option
a really tricky one here where it comes to limited edition stuff, do you trust your FLGS to get you that LE codex or mini if their distributor lets them down. Will they go to the secondary market for you even if they end up loosing money?
or
Buy where you play (if you play in store) as if you don't you make it much more likely you'll need to find a new place to hang out
or
By from a local business rather than a faceless big corporation (personally I'd choose based on service rather than business size)
It's pretty simple really, and someone may have already made this point, but if you like your FLGS and want it to stay in business, you should support it, which could include making purchases at the shop.
Its the same with any business or service. If you like it and want it to stick around, support it. I buy models I don't need from RBG because I want Red Box Games to be successful. I buy stuff from my FLGS because I would rather have one in the area than not. So I make an effort to spend money there.
If there's something of value to you, even if that value does not itself come with a price attached, e.g. free gaming space, and you want to retain that value, you need to be proactive about it. I enjoy the park in my town. I want it to be nice. I want to see it expanded. So I am a dues-paying member of the organization that helps to maintain the park. I think Planned Parenthood is great, so I make donations. I wanted Obama to be re-elected, so I voted for him, but I didn't volunteer or donate to his campaign. I pay taxes to support the park, so I could be satisfied with that, but I don't think the tax base is enough for what I want the park to be. I give a modest amount to PP because although I don't avail myself of their services, I want the organization to continue its existence so I make a modest yearly donation. I figure the organization has fairly sufficient funding, but I care about it enough to give some money. I calculated that Obama had himself more money than he knew what to do with, so I figured my vote would be enough, and I live in an area so damn conservative that I did not feel the benefits of volunteering outweighed the potential personal costs.
Ultimately it is all a cost/benefit analysis, but one must be mindful of the tragedy of the commons and/or the bystander effect. If you value something, but don't do anything to help maintain it, or worse, rabidly deplete its resources without doing anything to help maintain it, you can't really expect it to stick around.
It behooves people to step back and think about how the loss of a FLGS would affect them. Imagine the local shop wasn't there. Would you lose anything of value? If so, what sort of value do you place on it?
H.B.M.C. wrote: The guilt tripping that goes on about "supporting your local store" is kinda silly. I don't have any fething local stores. Why the hell shouldn't I seek out the best price available to me?
Well, if you weren't constantly dodging killer drop bears attacking from the trees maybe you would.
Part of the issue is the locational differences. In the US gathering at FLGS's is a standard thing due to culture and travel distances between players. Other countries seem to differ on that.
Personally I don't see how how FLGS stay in business, but thats just me.
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WayneTheGame wrote: Perhaps, but with the insane cost of models trying to save money is tantamount. It was another story entirely when it was like $25 for a box of 10 guys; I had zero problem buying exclusively at the game store. When the price has almost doubled, spending close to $50 on the same 10 guys is a bit ridiculous, especially when you need 2-3 of them.
I find it more insulting this notion of "The store provides you with a place to play so it's unfaithful to shop anywhere else" as though it should be some kind of obligation.
You don't have to compete with supermarkets. The people already in the store are a captive audience. Most gamers aren't going to walk to another store to buy a drink when they can just get one at the counter.
nkelsch wrote: So why should a gaming store provide you gaming space if you don't shop there?
Because they choose to do so?
If the store doesn't want non-customers using their tables, they can do what just about every cafe or restaurant on the planet does, and ask them to leave. If they instead choose to allow anyone who walks in to use their tables, then people are not doing anything wrong by using those tables.
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Farseer Faenyin wrote: If you think it's a free item that doesn't value you to spend money to keep...then you shouldn't need to use it. And if you still use it and spend nothing, you're a d-bag...sorry...you just are.
So if I ask a staff-member where to find something, and then don't spend any money, am I similarly in the wrong?
How about if I read a promotional flyer that the store shoved in my letter box telling me about their new releases?
Or if the store gives away, say, a free space marine to everyone who walks in the door?
The major difference in opinion here is entitlement versus earned reward. Some people think things should be handed to them and will take anything they can. Other have a sense of self-respect, respect for others, and honor....and don't act in such a way.
It's nothing whatsoever to do with 'entitlement'. It's to do with people for some inexplicable reason thinking that the store choosing to use a particular marketing tool (offering space to play, for no charge or stated purchase requirement) somehow obligates a player to make a purchase.
It's like suggesting that if you use the chair in a shoe shop to try on a pair of boots, you're now morally in the wrong if you don't buy something.
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Frazzled wrote: Where do you find opponents without an FLGS?
Would this be a good time to mention Dakka's handy Player Finder?
Noir wrote: Yes the one that say the closest player to me is a 2 and half hour drive away, not the best sorce for finding game in the States.
It's only been active since breakfast, with over a thousand players registered already. Give it time... the more people get behind it, the more useful a resource it will be.
Does it seem a pattern that the people who seem to not think 'pay where they play' should be a thing are all from Australia?
If you are from Australia, you are from a culture who doesn't have tipping am I right? Compare that to the US culture where tipping is not just common but often mandatory and without it, employees sometimes don't get paid at all and have negative wages. If you don't tip in most states (outisde California which has different laws) you are almost universally seen as a bad person. In some states, restaurants can impose service charges which you can be arrested for not paying. (basically stealing service)
Combine that with our FLGS-centric gaming communities, I am not sure you guys will fully understand how things are in the US and the UK which are both very different from each other and very different from Australia.
It does seem like all the people who are saying 'pay where you play' are from the US and all the people who see no social obligation or are flat out anti-FLGS are from Australia and either have bad FLGS or no FLGS. May just be different cultures and circumstances.
I think this is not an issue in many US stores as usually the open gaming is facilitated by a CLUB which co-exists with a store and usually the club self-manages itself. Some times you need to be affiliated with the club to even play there (which is how the store gets around the child supervision issue as the store is not taking custody of your minors). You will be socially ostracized for being a free-loader by the club members long before the store has to 'take action' because the club knows the only way they get to use the space is by being a profitable draw to the store. When the store gets overrun by parasites, open gaming ends or the store closes.
To be far tipping is common to most cultures (Aus included), it is more prevalent in the US because it seems to be acceptable for employers to pay grossly unfair and low wages on the basis that the customer is topping up their take home pay
nkelsch wrote: If you are from Australia, you are from a culture who doesn't have tipping am I right?
Yes and no. We have higher minimum wages in hospitality so that tipping isn't as essential for ensuring that staff actually earn enough to live on, but most service jobs still have tipping as an option. It's more common here though for restaurants and cafes to just have a 'tips' jar at the front counter for anyone who was impressed enough with the service to leave something extra (no real set amount there), and whatever goes in there is just divied up amongst the staff evenly.
...and all the people who see no social obligation or are flat out anti-FLGS are from Australia and either have bad FLGS or no FLGS.
It's not even just 'bad' FLGS... Most stores that sell wargaming stuff here don't actually have gaming space, or have very limited space. We're much like the UK in that regard... most gaming is done either at home, at gaming clubs, or at tournaments which are usually held in hired halls.
To most Oz gamers, the FLGS is just a shop. Because that's what it is.
The same goes with FLGS's. Their main purpose is to sell a product. Tables, chairs, all a luxury, but also a huge boon to their business because people can chill out and meet new people. It is most definitely an atmosphere thing, and I'm not about to deny that. All I am saying is that simply using the tables as your only method of selling products is a bad idea. It shouldn't be your sole method of gaining new customers.
But play space is pretty much the only thing they can offer over an online discounter. its not like you're going to mail order a cup of coffee. That environment is often the reason people are willing to pay more than what they could get it elsewhere.
It should be noted that two of the bigger online discounters, Miniature Market and the Warstore are also actual brick and mortar stores as well.
. With Kickstarter being overall a 'bad thing' for FLGS, pretty much FLGS will adjust their business model and 'wargaming' won't be part of it.
Is there any real evidence of that aside from anecdotal? Most of the KS'd products wouldn't have ended up in a gaming store anyways. The small potato stuff isn't likely to get picked up by a brick and mortar store since its not likely to be get distribution. How many minis outside of GW, Privateer Press, Wyrd and Reaper are really on your store's shelf? Not many on mine.
The few that would have (Bones for example) rapidly expanded the product lineup, allowing more and faster sales of different sku's of the biggest selling line by far. Dreadball and Deadzone already sold out, so there's clearly still demand outside the Kickstarter. Kingdom Death was never going retail anyways. So maybe they lost on Zombicide, but given that I've seen mini market run out of expansions for that, I'm betting there's still money to be made there as well.
At most you could argue that it takes shuffles around the gaming budget, but then so does getting married and having kids.
It's like suggesting that if you use the chair in a shoe shop to try on a pair of boots, you're now morally in the wrong if you don't buy something.
What if you sat around for hours, pulling shoes out all of the place and hogging the attention of the staff? Yeah, at that point, you're kind of a leech if you don't buy anything. That's one of the real differences. If you're playing a game, you're likely taking up a significant amount of the store's likely limited resources for a significant amount of time.
nkelsch wrote: So why should a gaming store provide you gaming space if you don't shop there?
Because they want to get as many people in the store as possible, which maximizes the chances of someone in the group buying something. This doesn't mean the "leech" is entitled to gaming space, of course, but it's in the store's best interest to provide it.
What if everyone in your local area thinks like you do?
Then you have to ask why the store owner has failed so miserably in convincing anyone to buy stuff.
"If you can't afford to tip 20% when you go out to eat, you can't afford to eat out. Stay home and cook in the kitchen."
"If you can't afford MSRP and forgoing the 20% online discounters price, you can't afford to play in public FLGS, Stay home and play in your basement."
Except that's not a very good comparison. Tipping is effectively mandatory because of abusive minimum wage laws that allow restaurants to pay pretty much nothing in wages on the assumption that their employees will make up the difference in tips. It's an obligation to the employee, not to the business. There is no equivalent to that in retail. The employees are guaranteed to receive minimum wage (unless they're also the owner and willingly take a pay cut), so the obligation you want to enforce is to the business.
Hence why FLGS are moving forward to killing 'open play' for wargamers and replacing everything with MTG and having 'open play' only on a weeknight or when they have organized events with entry fees to guarantee recoup of costs. the MTG customer base appreciates the place to play and has no problem dropping dime for entry fees or gaming space. Makes pay to play super easy and they accept it.
I seriously doubt that the MTG community has a different attitude. The real difference between MTG and miniatures is that stores have figured out ways to get MTG players to buy stuff purely because they want that stuff:
* Easy impulse buys from the box of packs at the register.
* Easy impulse buys from the shelf of tokens/dice/playmats/etc.
* Weekly (or more) tournaments offering prizes in store credit, which effectively means "spend $5 a week to play here".
* Sealed/draft tournaments that effectively add "buy $15 worth of cards to play" to the store credit entry fee/prize.
* Single cards with no shipping delays for players that want to buy something and use it immediately.
* Prize support from WOTC that gets people to enter those tournaments.
The end result is that the store offers a superior product that the MTG community can't buy online. Sure, lots of them do buy stuff online (especially boxes and expensive singles), but even the most selfish "leech" in the MTG community wants to buy what the store is offering. Contrast this with miniatures, where the general opinion seems to be that all the store owner needs to do is put some boxes on the shelf and offer some 6x4 tables with adequate terrain (often donated by the community), and the community is obligated to make charity donations to the store in exchange.
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Bossk_Hogg wrote: But play space is pretty much the only thing they can offer over an online discounter. its not like you're going to mail order a cup of coffee. That environment is often the reason people are willing to pay more than what they could get it elsewhere.
And this is why stores have a hard time getting sales from the miniatures community: because they don't bother to think of ideas for generating sales and just act like putting up a shelf of 40k boxes entitles them to charity donations from every player in the area. Here's some potential ideas to start with:
* No shipping delays: get that shiny new toy as soon as you decide you want it.
* More frequent tournaments with entry fees.
* Bonus events with purchases (escalation leagues, "buy a character and we'll help you paint it" classes, etc).
* Reward cards (and yes, even if the discount isn't the same as online there's still a psychological factor with earning points).
* Painting services: partner with a local commission painter and offer paint-to-order models (which just happen to be bought at full retail price from the store).
* Gift buying advice: friends and family are probably going to go to the store their spouse/kid/whatever plays at and ask what to buy.
Is that more work? Sure, but welcome to retail. Success requires work and learning how to sell your products, not just putting up a store and playing video games while the profit comes in.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: What if you sat around for hours, pulling shoes out all of the place and hogging the attention of the staff? Yeah, at that point, you're kind of a leech if you don't buy anything. That's one of the real differences. If you're playing a game, you're likely taking up a significant amount of the store's likely limited resources for a significant amount of time.
Then in both of those cases, the staff are witihin their rights to just ask you to leave.
If they choose to allow you to remain in the store lounging about and patting the shoes, or playing on their tables, then you're not doing something wrong by doing so.
I know that the distances that people travel for their hobby vary widely across the world, but here in the UK we're quite a small island and you're never stupidly far from a miniatures retailer, whether it's an independent seller or one of the infamous Games Workshop stores. If you have one or both in your town or city, so much the better.
But retail in general is a tough business and that's why I think it's important, for you and your community, to shop locally if you can.
Just like anyone else, I can buy online from any number of Internet retailers and maybe save a few quid compared to buying in person.
But if there was a local retailer, GW or indie, who I liked (and I'll stress this point - LIKED) I'd much rather spend my money with him (or her) to help keep them in business.
Because, as well as keeping a business going, it puts money into the local community via their business taxes, so the street outside gets swept and cleaned, the street lights work and the potholes are fixed; it puts money into the local sandwich shops (from the store staff and the guys who go there for snacks between games); it keeps the local pub happy 'cos some of their customers are waiting for little Johnny to spend his pocket money in 'that model soldier shop', and it gives your Auntie Mary somewhere to go to buy an exciting birthday present for you, instead of boring ol' socks. Everyone wins.
Of course it cuts both ways. If the miniatures retailer is a Grade-A jerk, vote with your feet. Don't give him your money. But if they're a nice guy, why not support him a little?
I'm not saying you must pledge to give them 50% of your earnings for the next ten years, but things aren't that tight that you absolutely have to save another 2% by shopping online. If money really is that scarce, you shouldn't be buying miniatures in the first place
notprop wrote: To be far tipping is common to most cultures (Aus included), it is more prevalent in the US because it seems to be acceptable for employers to pay grossly unfair and low wages on the basis that the customer is topping up their take home pay
Precisely. This is a substantial problem in the US. But that's sort of off topic. On topic, I haven't noticed this trend, except to say that folks in the US tend to value the FLGS more highly because they are more important given the comparatively lower population densities found throughout most of the US. The FLGS can often serve as a regional or semi-regional hub of a hobby community spread over a wide area. And to go off of what Peregrine said, the FLGS does well when it supports the community, in my experience. I'm not terribly wedded to the closest FLGS in my area because it doesn't really do much to spark my interest aside from having tables and some poorly-organized terrain. The shop doesn't do much to encourage me to want to A) go to the store or B) stay there very long. But as I said earlier, I'd rather have the shop than not have it, so I make an effort to spend some money there. If the shop offered more value, I'd almost certainly spend more.
It might be tougher to organize in home or club events when most people would have to drive 30 min to 2 hours to get to the location, but a FLGS with decent hours in the are provides a place for people to come and go at irregular times. Even in big cities there may only be 2 or 3 game stores; often pretty far from one another. I travel a great deal and I can definitely say that in lots of metropolitan areas, getting to a FLGS is not terribly easy or convenient. In Boston, for example, you've got to go to Cambridge to get to a game store. If you were in downtown New Orleans, you'd have to go all the way to Metairie. If you live in the city and have a car, that's not bad at all from an American perspective, but a lot of people are probably driving 30+ minutes to get to the shop.
nkelsch wrote: Does it seem a pattern that the people who seem to not think 'pay where they play' should be a thing are all from Australia?
If you are from Australia, you are from a culture who doesn't have tipping am I right? Compare that to the US culture where tipping is not just common but often mandatory and without it, employees sometimes don't get paid at all and have negative wages. If you don't tip in most states (outisde California which has different laws) you are almost universally seen as a bad person. In some states, restaurants can impose service charges which you can be arrested for not paying. (basically stealing service)
Combine that with our FLGS-centric gaming communities, I am not sure you guys will fully understand how things are in the US and the UK which are both very different from each other and very different from Australia.
I don't think the tipping thing really shows anything much that could be applied to what we're talking about here. Tipping in the USA is a way to pay servers. In Australia, servers actually get paid properly by the business, so you only tip for exceptional service. I have lived a decent amount of time in both countries, when my Australian friend came over to the US he was happy to tip when he got good service but didn't really understand why he was still tipping for average or even bad service.
Even talking to my American friends, a lot of them would prefer a system where you know the server is being properly paid and so tipping is actually for good service and not just an obligation.
It does seem like all the people who are saying 'pay where you play' are from the US and all the people who see no social obligation or are flat out anti-FLGS are from Australia and either have bad FLGS or no FLGS. May just be different cultures and circumstances.
I think it's purely coincidental. This forum is hardly a cross section of cultures. The fact that many of the people who are anti-pay where you play are Australian more shows that Dakka simply has a strong Australian presence.
I think this is not an issue in many US stores as usually the open gaming is facilitated by a CLUB which co-exists with a store and usually the club self-manages itself. Some times you need to be affiliated with the club to even play there (which is how the store gets around the child supervision issue as the store is not taking custody of your minors). You will be socially ostracized for being a free-loader by the club members long before the store has to 'take action' because the club knows the only way they get to use the space is by being a profitable draw to the store. When the store gets overrun by parasites, open gaming ends or the store closes.
The only couple of stores near me (in Australia) that had gaming tables (aside from GW itself) made money off the tables by holding events there and such, and the local clubs paid to use tables in the evenings. The store for the most part didn't mind if you used the tables during the day. One store that closed unfortunately (I believe due to a large and unexpected rent increase) actually had prices that weren't far off online prices, would do deals that encouraged you to spend more and had food to buy as well.
That's why I tend to feel if you have tables in your store, you can't be overly unhappy with people are using them and not buying stuff because the point of the tables is to bring people in, if you can't then exploit that to make money, I don't see how that's the customer's fault.
IMO it's not like a restaurant where you walk in, buy your food, and sit at a table to eat it and if you're sitting at the table and not eating, you're a "parasite". It's a very different business model, as it's not like I'm going to buy a bunch of models and then immediately sit down and start playing a game with them and then leave when I'm "finished" and come back next time to buy another set of models and play another game with them.
Peregrine wrote: And this is why stores have a hard time getting sales from the miniatures community: because they don't bother to think of ideas for generating sales and just act like putting up a shelf of 40k boxes entitles them to charity donations from every player in the area. Here's some potential ideas to start with:
* No shipping delays: get that shiny new toy as soon as you decide you want it.
* More frequent tournaments with entry fees.
* Bonus events with purchases (escalation leagues, "buy a character and we'll help you paint it" classes, etc).
* Reward cards (and yes, even if the discount isn't the same as online there's still a psychological factor with earning points).
* Painting services: partner with a local commission painter and offer paint-to-order models (which just happen to be bought at full retail price from the store).
* Gift buying advice: friends and family are probably going to go to the store their spouse/kid/whatever plays at and ask what to buy.
Is that more work? Sure, but welcome to retail. Success requires work and learning how to sell your products, not just putting up a store and playing video games while the profit comes in.
Pretty much this. You aren't entitled to things just for making tables available on the off chance that somebody comes in; most FLGS seem to have a ton of weekly events for MTG but wargames tend to be if you're lucky one night that's "miniatures night" when you can reasonably find a game, and every other day is pretty much if you're lucky maybe somebody else had the same idea you did to head on down to the store and you can get a game in. There isn't any incentive beyond having a place with tables/terrain to even use the FLGS (assuming one prefers to order online). It'd be another story entirely if there were frequent leagues (perhaps even different campaigns on different days), nights dedicated to painting workshops or terrain workshops or whatnot, but as it stands most shops on the wargames side have a couple of racks with products, a Citadel paint rack, and 2+ tables with some terrain and that's it; everything else is dedicated to MTG and similar games.
My local shop is that like, despite recently upgrading to a store like quadruple their old size (and now being the largest game store in the area) - MTG events almost every day, several times a week. 40k/Fantasy gets one night dedicated to it (and there's still MTG on that night, so while they have the most of the store we get a corner with a few tables) and everything else has to be set up with other players or hope that you get lucky and someone else heads down there to see who's around; that's not really a feasible thing when you have to drive down there. Few if any leagues/campaigns going on, maybe once in a blue moon. The occasional RTT tournament (as opposed to MTG having some kind of tournament thing every week). A small corner of the store with Warhammer things.
Farseer Faenyin wrote: If you think it's a free item that doesn't value you to spend money to keep...then you shouldn't need to use it. And if you still use it and spend nothing, you're a d-bag...sorry...you just are.
So if I ask a staff-member where to find something, and then don't spend any money, am I similarly in the wrong?
How about if I read a promotional flyer that the store shoved in my letter box telling me about their new releases?
Or if the store gives away, say, a free space marine to everyone who walks in the door?
The major difference in opinion here is entitlement versus earned reward. Some people think things should be handed to them and will take anything they can. Other have a sense of self-respect, respect for others, and honor....and don't act in such a way.
It's nothing whatsoever to do with 'entitlement'. It's to do with people for some inexplicable reason thinking that the store choosing to use a particular marketing tool (offering space to play, for no charge or stated purchase requirement) somehow obligates a player to make a purchase.
It's like suggesting that if you use the chair in a shoe shop to try on a pair of boots, you're now morally in the wrong if you don't buy something.
Full of poor assumptions and strawman arguements. You have clearly never worked retail or taken business classes, as your grasp of the table being a 'marketing tool' is not supported in the business model. FLGs in the US fit a role that, along with being a retail store, are meant to have functions to further support those that purchase from them not simply as a marketing tool but as support for the hobby. Luckily, this is rarely a problem in the FLGs that I've been to...as those that share the OP and your 'who cares about the store' attitude is regularly in the minority in those locations.
I appreciate your time spent typing, but you added nothing of value due to strawman comparisons. Using tablespace at a gaming store on a regular basis without supporting the store and exaggerating it to not buying a pair of shoes when using the chair to try it on....fits perfectly with the definition of strawman through unnecessary exaggeration. I welcome you to look up the definition and come to the same conclusion.
And nothing you said changes the morality of the decision to not support the store.
Farseer Faenyin wrote: Full of poor assumptions and strawman arguements. You have clearly never worked retail or taken business classes...
Clearly not...
Actually, I worked in retail for more than 10 years, including some time in a games store. What I know from that time is that this two-way relationship that people seem to assume should exist by and large just doesn't. There is no 'morality' issue here. A store is a business. They exist to make money, and one of the ways that they do that is by encouraging customers to spend time on their premises.
There is never an obligation in the other direction. A person in your store is never obligated to spend money there. They can choose to do so, or not. If a customer is particularly fond of a particular store, and so chooses to spend money there regardless of there being cheaper places to buy from, then that's entirely their choice. I've done so myself in the past with stores that had particularly good service. But that's a choice, not a moral obligation. Propping up that store when they've made business choices that cost them more than they expected them to isn't my job. Making the chosen business model profitable is the job of the business owner, not the customer.
Farseer Faenyin wrote: FLGs in the US fit a role that, along with being a retail store, are meant to have functions to further support those that purchase from them not simply as a marketing tool but as support for the hobby.
No they don't. Stores, at least if they're run as a proper business instead of a way to subsidize the owner's gaming hobbies, don't exist to support the hobby, they exist to sell stuff. Support for the hobby only exists because store owners know that gaming is a social activity and if people don't have a place to play their game they're not going to buy those games. Providing some 6x4 tables and cheap terrain is just the bare minimum required to sell miniatures at all, not a service done purely out of love for the community.
And nothing you said changes the morality of the decision to not support the store.
You're right, because this isn't a moral question. If the store can't sell things then it's their fault for failing to find a way to get customers to buy stuff. We, the customers, aren't obligated to give them charity donations to make up for their failed business.
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: I assume you don't play in your FLGS? and you don't wish to help support a local business?
Its never that simple. Past experiences for my part have shown I wouldn't piss on many FLGS if they were on fire. Generally speaking coming from NY, they weren't worth it, given that I use to support them and....that support never seem to come back to me or other players.
Just because your a FLGS or a local business doesn't make you worthy of support. You actually have to provide goods or services I find useful to get my money. Most FLGS do not. Which is why in NY my friends and I started our own club that paid for its own space and then eventually moved again to new space.
However, having just said all that, my opinion is changing again, given my move to MD. At least one store I visited looks like its worth support. Getting support means giving it as well.
Farseer Faenyin wrote: FLGs in the US fit a role that, along with being a retail store, are meant to have functions to further support those that purchase from them not simply as a marketing tool but as support for the hobby.
No they don't. Stores, at least if they're run as a proper business instead of a way to subsidize the owner's gaming hobbies, don't exist to support the hobby, they exist to sell stuff. Support for the hobby only exists because store owners know that gaming is a social activity and if people don't have a place to play their game they're not going to buy those games. Providing some 6x4 tables and cheap terrain is just the bare minimum required to sell miniatures at all, not a service done purely out of love for the community.
And nothing you said changes the morality of the decision to not support the store.
You're right, because this isn't a moral question. If the store can't sell things then it's their fault for failing to find a way to get customers to buy stuff. We, the customers, aren't obligated to give them charity donations to make up for their failed business.
It does amuse me how you seem to live in a totally binary, black and white world Peregrine.
Why can't a store owner provide tables as both a means of encouraging sales and because of a desire to support the community? Why can't a store both be focused on sales and a focus for their customers to meet and play games? Let's face it, if you're going to open a business purely to make money, regardless of how competent your ability or how professional your approach, this ain't the sort of business you'd want to be running, and some love for the hobby and desire to build a community is going to be a factor in even the most successful business owner's plans if they decide to go down this route.
I say again, there is a section of society as a whole which has no compunction about taking advantage of what they perceive as a "free" service, and it is the retailer's own responsibility to protect themselves from that, but the majority are decent people who appreciate that any business they feel benefits them in some way needs their financial support in return in order to stick around.
Are they obligated to for some reason? No. They choose to do it because it is the right thing to do on several levels, for both parties, which makes it a moral decision.
I've always been under the impression that supporting the community is encouraging sales. I'm not a retail genius or anything, but it has always seemed to me that the most successful shops put a lot of effort into engaging with customers, supporting the local gaming community, and generally giving customers 101 reasons to be in the store, whether or not they're buying anything on any given day.
azreal13 wrote: I say again, there is a section of society as a whole which has no compunction about taking advantage of what they perceive as a "free" service, ...
If the store doesn't charge a fee or require a purchase to use their tables, then that is a free service. 'Perception' doesn't enter into it. A service offered without charge is the very definition of a free service.
...but the majority are decent people who appreciate that any business they feel benefits them in some way needs their financial support in return in order to stick around.
So in order to be a 'decent' person, I have to prop up a business owner who hasn't managed to work out how to run his business profitably? Nice.
I'm a little curious as to how far this extends. Should we also be offering to pay extra over the ticket price in order to better make sure that the business is turning a profit? Maybe we should all just set up a direct transfer so a quarter of our pay just transfers dfirectly to the store each month, so we're supporting them even if they don't have anything that we want to buy right now?
A free service, freely offered, is a free service. By all means support the store by buying from them if you see that as a reasonable exchange for the service rendered... but getting judgemental about people who don't share your opinion of the importance of that specific business in their lives seems a little off, to be honest.
For what it's worth, I have absolutely no objection to the idea of a store charging a reasonable fee for the use of its tables, in the same way as a pool hall does. If I come across a store that I want to play at, they would get zero argument from me about supporting that store by paying to play.
But if they're going to choose to offer those tables for use at no charge, I'm not going to go out of my way to hand them over cash. I'll buy something if the price is right and there's something that I want, but if they're not asking for money, I'm not going to just give them money, any more than I'm going to insist that the corner store should be charging me more for a bottle of coke.
At this point we've moved into a purely theoretical discussion, because if you think in the real world that any profit making organisation of any flavour offers anything genuinely for "free" then I'm afraid you're sadly mistaken.
If a "free" service, and I will continue to use quotation marks in this context, is not benefitting the business to a greater degree than it is costing them, assuming a reasonable level of competence, the the service will not remain, or remain "free," for very long.
azreal13 wrote: At this point we've moved into a purely theoretical discussion, because if you think in the real world that any profit making organisation of any flavour offers anything genuinely for "free" then I'm afraid you're sadly mistaken.
If a "free" service, and I will continue to use quotation marks in this context, is not benefitting the business to a greater degree than it is costing them, assuming a reasonable level of competence, the the service will not remain, or remain "free," for very long.
Of course it won't. But that doesn't make someone a bad person for taking advantage of that free service while it is offered.
Again, I'm not expecting businesses to give me something for nothing. I have no problem with paying to game. But if a business chooses to offer a service for free, why the hell should I give them money for that service?
You're not obligated to, but failing to support the business offering you that service in a direct, financial way will ultimately result in the closure of the business and the loss of that service, so it is essentially a case of self preservation.
azreal13 wrote: You're not obligated to, but failing to support the business offering you that service in a direct, financial way will ultimately result in the closure of the business and the loss of that service, so it is essentially a case of self preservation.
Which makes it a personal issue as to whether or not the service being offered is important enough to make you want to support the store... not a moral issue.
azreal13 wrote: You're not obligated to, but failing to support the business offering you that service in a direct, financial way will ultimately result in the closure of the business and the loss of that service, so it is essentially a case of self preservation.
At the end of the day, businesses come and go regardless of whether I "support" them by wasting money there. The FLGS I've supported most my life still closed despite my supporting them (they never even had tables until the last year or so).
It's up to the manager to make their business viable, not the individual customer. If they happen to have customers who buy a lot regardless and play games on the tables so the tables can be "free", cool.
Personally I think the idea of placing the responsibility of supporting a wargaming store on the customer is a bit silly, even if I do purchase exclusively from my FLGS, sometimes I'll go months or sometimes even years without purchasing anything. It's nothing like the Starbucks analogy where you go in, purchase a coffee and then sit down at the tables they provide to drink it. I'm not going to take it upon myself to try and figure out how much the gaming tables are worth and whether that is sufficient to keep the store afloat. It's up to the manager to decide if having a free table is advertising enough to pay for itself or if they need to charge for it or if they can't afford it at all.
It's particularly problematic given that ongoing purchasing isn't really a requirement of playing most wargames.
Unlike Magic, where drafts and release events can keep people coming back and buying more and more stuff, a veteran with a reasonable army finished off, barring widescale changes in a new codex, really never needs to buy anything in order to keep playing.
But the logic that the player shoudl 'support' the store puts this player in the same category as the guy who buys all of his models online and then plays in the store. Neither of them have any need to buy anything more than snacks.
So should the veteran be going and buying models he doesn't need, just to support the store having free table space?
Or, if the store is really interested in fostering the local community, should the onus be on the store to do so in a way that is sustainable?
azreal13 wrote: At this point we've moved into a purely theoretical discussion, because if you think in the real world that any profit making organisation of any flavour offers anything genuinely for "free" then I'm afraid you're sadly mistaken.
If a "free" service, and I will continue to use quotation marks in this context, is not benefitting the business to a greater degree than it is costing them, assuming a reasonable level of competence, the the service will not remain, or remain "free," for very long.
Of course it won't. But that doesn't make someone a bad person for taking advantage of that free service while it is offered.
Again, I'm not expecting businesses to give me something for nothing. I have no problem with paying to game. But if a business chooses to offer a service for free, why the hell should I give them money for that service?
I think what people are saying is that it does make you a "bad" person if you expect the service to remain or remain free, but nevertheless take advantage of it without giving something to support it, like listening to NPR every day but never pledging.
But at the end of the day, it is in the interest of a game store to encourage the playing of games, and lots of games require multiple players. If you're playing but never paying and it allow me to play and I am paying, mission accomplished, right?
azreal13 wrote: At this point we've moved into a purely theoretical discussion, because if you think in the real world that any profit making organisation of any flavour offers anything genuinely for "free" then I'm afraid you're sadly mistaken.
If a "free" service, and I will continue to use quotation marks in this context, is not benefitting the business to a greater degree than it is costing them, assuming a reasonable level of competence, the the service will not remain, or remain "free," for very long.
Of course it won't. But that doesn't make someone a bad person for taking advantage of that free service while it is offered.
Again, I'm not expecting businesses to give me something for nothing. I have no problem with paying to game. But if a business chooses to offer a service for free, why the hell should I give them money for that service?
I think what people are saying is that it does make you a "bad" person if you expect the service to remain or remain free, but nevertheless take advantage of it without giving something to support it, like listening to NPR every day but never pledging.
But at the end of the day, it is in the interest of a game store to encourage the playing of games, and lots of games require multiple players. If you're playing but never paying and it allow me to play and I am paying, mission accomplished, right?
Yeah, I think at the end of the day having people playing is better than not having people playing regardless, as you want to encourage the player base. If a store told people they aren't allowed to play without buying product, I think it'd harm their overall business even if the people weren't buying anything, which is why I think a better business plan would be to require a membership or have organised events that require an entry fee.
Why do fast food places open next to fast food places: it is better to have people eating than not eating, right? That's a bit different as it is a colocation issue, but similar. You want customers in proximity even if they are not buying from you specifically. If they are there, there's a highe chance they'll buy something, or so I have heard. It's also a social activity that depends greatly on a community.
How many of us would be buying if weren't playing on a regular basis? I bet I can correlate my spending habits, hobby-wise, to how frequently I'm playing.
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