Along with Sanguinius, Horus, Angron, and Magnus.

I would actually think Fulgrim would be there equally if not more with Horus and Angron, since Fulgrim is on the road to perfection.. He seems like he would be the master of martial arts(not just kung fu, but sword technique, etc)..

 Imperial_Arson wrote:
Along with Sanguinius, Horus, Angron, and Magnus.

I would actually think Fulgrim would be there equally if not more with Horus and Angron, since Fulgrim is on the road to perfection.. He seems like he would be the master of martial arts(not just kung fu, but sword technique, etc)..

Horus shouldn't be in the top five. He was only powerful or impressive after the buff by the Chaos Gods, but even then Vulkan or Magnus would probably smack him down, and hard.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Imperial_Arson wrote:
Along with Sanguinius, Horus, Angron, and Magnus.

I would actually think Fulgrim would be there equally if not more with Horus and Angron, since Fulgrim is on the road to perfection.. He seems like he would be the master of martial arts(not just kung fu, but sword technique, etc)..

Horus shouldn't be in the top five. He was only powerful or impressive after the buff by the Chaos Gods, but even then Vulkan or Magnus would probably smack him down, and hard.

It would sound less cooler but they should have made the Horus Heresy the Fulgrim Heresy..

Pretty sure Fulgrim actually did more against Primarchs then Horus. The killing of Sanguinius doesn't count since he pretty much was tired when it happened.

just seems like it would make more sense.

Fulgrim was apparently known among the Primarchs for his swordsmanship, as well as his strategic skill. But he was neither the best fighter among the Primarchs not the greatest tactician. He was apparently just really good at both (even for a Primarch).

As well, unlike Horus, Fulgrim was a social butterfly but only to people he liked. The individuals whom he didn't like, he tended to openly snub. Thus a Heresy under his rule could never be as effective because the traitor Primarchs would not fight under him.

 Imperial_Arson wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Imperial_Arson wrote:
Along with Sanguinius, Horus, Angron, and Magnus.

I would actually think Fulgrim would be there equally if not more with Horus and Angron, since Fulgrim is on the road to perfection.. He seems like he would be the master of martial arts(not just kung fu, but sword technique, etc)..

Horus shouldn't be in the top five. He was only powerful or impressive after the buff by the Chaos Gods, but even then Vulkan or Magnus would probably smack him down, and hard.

It would sound less cooler but they should have made the Horus Heresy the Fulgrim Heresy..

Pretty sure Fulgrim actually did more against Primarchs then Horus. The killing of Sanguinius doesn't count since he pretty much was tired when it happened.

just seems like it would make more sense.

No, Erebus, Logar, and the Word Bearers Legion was the main force behind the Horus Heresy, and probably directly had a hand in arranging Horus' fall to chaos.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Fulgrim was apparently known among the Primarchs for his swordsmanship, as well as his strategic skill. But he was neither the best fighter among the Primarchs not the greatest tactician. He was apparently just really good at both (even for a Primarch).

As well, unlike Horus, Fulgrim was a social butterfly but only to people he liked. The individuals whom he didn't like, he tended to openly snub. Thus a Heresy under his rule could never be as effective because the traitor Primarchs would not fight under him.

Do you know who he didn't like?

I know he found Perturabo to be particularly boring and uncivilized. Iirc he doesn't like Angron or Mortarion either.

The theme that I pickout is that Fulgrim does not approve of "blunt-object" warfare. All three of the legions mentioned specialize in gritty wars of attrition. The resentment makes sense in a way, then, considering that Fulgrim had the second smallest legion next to Magnus. He was forced to be especially careful with his strategies because he didn't have the numbers for prolonged engagements that some of his other brothers' legions had.

Edit- There's a bit of irony there, because after his fall Fulgrim becomes one of the most irresponsible of the Primarchs, literally tossing his men into the meatgrinder with zero thought whatsoever at times. Out of all the traitor legions, very few of them (TKSons comes to mind) are in as poor shape as the Emperor's Children by M.41.

That's...disappointing.

 Imperial_Arson wrote:
That's...disappointing.

My exact reaction to the black legion supplement!

 Imperial_Arson wrote:
That's...disappointing.

Why?

In scars it's stated by Russ that khan is the greatest swordsman he's ever seen but I think these threads will always descend into "my" primarch is better then yours. Incidentally I've always been surprised thee isn't many horus fans out there

Ceann Fine wrote:
In scars it's stated by Russ that khan is the greatest swordsman he's ever seen but I think these threads will always descend into "my" primarch is better then yours. Incidentally I've always been surprised thee isn't many horus fans out there

'Cause he never really does anything exceptionally impressive. Yeah, he smacked around the Emperor, but he was holding back and previously Horus was wounded by human space elves. Meanwhile, Vulkan's effectively invincible and Magnus is the second strongest psyker in the galaxy. I'd even put the likes of Angron, Russ, Sanguinius, and Fulgrim over Horus.

Fulgrim as a duelist is unmatched, IIRC.

But, rounding out the top 5 fighters, you left out Lion El'Jonson. It's like people totally forgot he's a primarch because he wasn't involved with the Horus Heresy much and was terrifically aloof besides, and therefore the background to him is relegated mostly to Dark Angels only stuff anyway.

But he totally beat the stuffing out of Leman Russ that one time. If you win a bare-knuckle wrestling match with the most vikingly viking to every viking in the grim dark future, you deserve a nod.

Iirc he only knocked Russ out after Russ started laughing about how stupid the fight was

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Imperial_Arson wrote:
Along with Sanguinius, Horus, Angron, and Magnus.

I would actually think Fulgrim would be there equally if not more with Horus and Angron, since Fulgrim is on the road to perfection.. He seems like he would be the master of martial arts(not just kung fu, but sword technique, etc)..

Horus shouldn't be in the top five. He was only powerful or impressive after the buff by the Chaos Gods, but even then Vulkan or Magnus would probably smack him down, and hard.

That's a load of utter crap.

XXXX

GoingtoHell wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Imperial_Arson wrote:
Along with Sanguinius, Horus, Angron, and Magnus.

I would actually think Fulgrim would be there equally if not more with Horus and Angron, since Fulgrim is on the road to perfection.. He seems like he would be the master of martial arts(not just kung fu, but sword technique, etc)..

Horus shouldn't be in the top five. He was only powerful or impressive after the buff by the Chaos Gods, but even then Vulkan or Magnus would probably smack him down, and hard.

That's a load of utter crap.

XXXX

Yeah, you took that load to the face too.

funny thing is it's true.

It's been stated many times in official sources that Horus was the best amongst Primarchs, so I'm gonna believe those over some silly opinions. And then we have Chaos Horus...

Loyalist Fulgrim was probably one of the best Primarchs in general, but ever since his devotion to Slaanesh he traded most of his tactical genius to raw power, what with the Daemonhood and all. Not sure how did that round up in the end, but he did defeat Rowboat Girlyman as a Daemon Primarch, so probably not bad.

 kinratha wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Imperial_Arson wrote:
Along with Sanguinius, Horus, Angron, and Magnus.

I would actually think Fulgrim would be there equally if not more with Horus and Angron, since Fulgrim is on the road to perfection.. He seems like he would be the master of martial arts(not just kung fu, but sword technique, etc)..

Horus shouldn't be in the top five. He was only powerful or impressive after the buff by the Chaos Gods, but even then Vulkan or Magnus would probably smack him down, and hard.

That's a load of utter crap.

XXXX

Yeah, you took that load to the face too.

funny thing is it's true.

And show me some sources or examples that dispute the dpfsct that another 2 other primaries claim he is the most powerful. I used a one line argument to counter his as we had previously had a debate about this very same topic in another thread.
Responding to my comment with pointless and totally unsupported one line sentences is not a valid argument.

XXXX

GoingtoHell wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Imperial_Arson wrote:
Along with Sanguinius, Horus, Angron, and Magnus.

I would actually think Fulgrim would be there equally if not more with Horus and Angron, since Fulgrim is on the road to perfection.. He seems like he would be the master of martial arts(not just kung fu, but sword technique, etc)..

Horus shouldn't be in the top five. He was only powerful or impressive after the buff by the Chaos Gods, but even then Vulkan or Magnus would probably smack him down, and hard.

That's a load of utter crap.

XXXX

Except it's true. Horus wasn't remarkable during the Great Crusade- his use came at being a politician. Meanwhile, most of the top tier Primarchs would smack him around with relative ease, what with Vulkan being invincible (and IIRC, the strongest), Magnus able to blow him to pieces with psyker prowess being the second strongest psyker in the galaxy, and Fulgrim as well, considering IIRC he tanked a Titan P-Cannon.

It's true.

Horus was never the strongest fighter.

He was never the best strategist.

His legion didn't have the best conqueror record.

Horus was above-average at all three, but master of none.

What quality he did possess, above all others, was that he was a people person. Every Primarch, bar none, liked him. He was feared by on one, he intimidated no one, everyone loved him all of the time.

That's why he was made Warmaster.

 Wyzilla wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Imperial_Arson wrote:
Along with Sanguinius, Horus, Angron, and Magnus.

I would actually think Fulgrim would be there equally if not more with Horus and Angron, since Fulgrim is on the road to perfection.. He seems like he would be the master of martial arts(not just kung fu, but sword technique, etc)..

Horus shouldn't be in the top five. He was only powerful or impressive after the buff by the Chaos Gods, but even then Vulkan or Magnus would probably smack him down, and hard.

That's a load of utter crap.

XXXX

Except it's true. Horus wasn't remarkable during the Great Crusade- his use came at being a politician. Meanwhile, most of the top tier Primarchs would smack him around with relative ease, what with Vulkan being invincible (and IIRC, the strongest), Magnus able to blow him to pieces with psyker prowess being the second strongest psyker in the galaxy, and Fulgrim as well, considering IIRC he tanked a Titan P-Cannon.

The fact that Fulgrim survived a P-cannon shot is not a credible argument as to why he would defeat Horus. Vulcan being perpetual does not make him the strongest. Firstly there are weapons that can kill perpetuals, secondly Horus' fighting style would see him a mass of severed tendons and ruined muscle. Yes he would never die but he would be incapacitated. As for Magnus destroying him, Horus has some of the most powerful psychic wards on his armour. If we are talking per corruption Horus, yeah Magnus might edge it. Corrupted Horus? Never. Not on any level.

XXXX


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It's true.

Horus was never the strongest fighter.

He was never the best strategist.

His legion didn't have the best conqueror method.

Horus was above-average at all three, but master of none.

What quality he did possess, above all others, was that he was a people person. Every Primarch, bar none, liked him. He was feared by on one, he intimidated no one, everyone loved him all of the time.

That's why he was made Warmaster.

I'm am talking about mid Heresy Horus (before he was corrupted), Dorn feared him above any other and said he beloved he could defeat Angron in combat but not Horus. Corax also states that Horus was the best in single combat, one of the two who could best Angron followed by Sanguinius. Your argument lacking any citations or fluff backing it up has no grounds here...


XXXX

GoingtoHell wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Imperial_Arson wrote:
Along with Sanguinius, Horus, Angron, and Magnus.

I would actually think Fulgrim would be there equally if not more with Horus and Angron, since Fulgrim is on the road to perfection.. He seems like he would be the master of martial arts(not just kung fu, but sword technique, etc)..

Horus shouldn't be in the top five. He was only powerful or impressive after the buff by the Chaos Gods, but even then Vulkan or Magnus would probably smack him down, and hard.

That's a load of utter crap.

XXXX

Except it's true. Horus wasn't remarkable during the Great Crusade- his use came at being a politician. Meanwhile, most of the top tier Primarchs would smack him around with relative ease, what with Vulkan being invincible (and IIRC, the strongest), Magnus able to blow him to pieces with psyker prowess being the second strongest psyker in the galaxy, and Fulgrim as well, considering IIRC he tanked a Titan P-Cannon.

The fact that Fulgrim survived a P-cannon shot is not a credible argument as to why he would defeat Horus. Vulcan being perpetual does not make him the strongest. Firstly there are weapons that can kill perpetuals, secondly Horus' fighting style would see him a mass of severed tendons and ruined muscle. Yes he would never die but he would be incapacitated. As for Magnus destroying him, Horus has some of the most powerful psychic wards on his armour. If we are talking per corruption Horus, yeah Magnus might edge it. Corrupted Horus? Never. Not on any level.

XXXX


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It's true.

Horus was never the strongest fighter.

He was never the best strategist.

His legion didn't have the best conqueror method.

Horus was above-average at all three, but master of none.

What quality he did possess, above all others, was that he was a people person. Every Primarch, bar none, liked him. He was feared by on one, he intimidated no one, everyone loved him all of the time.

That's why he was made Warmaster.

I'm am talking about mid Heresy Horus (before he was corrupted), Dorn feared him above any other and said he beloved he could defeat Angron in combat but not Horus. Corax also states that Horus was the best in single combat, one of the two who could best Angron followed by Sanguinius. Your argument lacking any citations or fluff backing it up has no grounds here...


XXXX

You mean like how Horus got smacked around and was threatened by the Interex?

 Wyzilla wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Imperial_Arson wrote:
Along with Sanguinius, Horus, Angron, and Magnus.

I would actually think Fulgrim would be there equally if not more with Horus and Angron, since Fulgrim is on the road to perfection.. He seems like he would be the master of martial arts(not just kung fu, but sword technique, etc)..

Horus shouldn't be in the top five. He was only powerful or impressive after the buff by the Chaos Gods, but even then Vulkan or Magnus would probably smack him down, and hard.

That's a load of utter crap.

XXXX

Except it's true. Horus wasn't remarkable during the Great Crusade- his use came at being a politician. Meanwhile, most of the top tier Primarchs would smack him around with relative ease, what with Vulkan being invincible (and IIRC, the strongest), Magnus able to blow him to pieces with psyker prowess being the second strongest psyker in the galaxy, and Fulgrim as well, considering IIRC he tanked a Titan P-Cannon.

The fact that Fulgrim survived a P-cannon shot is not a credible argument as to why he would defeat Horus. Vulcan being perpetual does not make him the strongest. Firstly there are weapons that can kill perpetuals, secondly Horus' fighting style would see him a mass of severed tendons and ruined muscle. Yes he would never die but he would be incapacitated. As for Magnus destroying him, Horus has some of the most powerful psychic wards on his armour. If we are talking per corruption Horus, yeah Magnus might edge it. Corrupted Horus? Never. Not on any level.

XXXX


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It's true.

Horus was never the strongest fighter.

He was never the best strategist.

His legion didn't have the best conqueror method.

Horus was above-average at all three, but master of none.

What quality he did possess, above all others, was that he was a people person. Every Primarch, bar none, liked him. He was feared by on one, he intimidated no one, everyone loved him all of the time.

That's why he was made Warmaster.

I'm am talking about mid Heresy Horus (before he was corrupted), Dorn feared him above any other and said he beloved he could defeat Angron in combat but not Horus. Corax also states that Horus was the best in single combat, one of the two who could best Angron followed by Sanguinius. Your argument lacking any citations or fluff backing it up has no grounds here...


XXXX

You mean like how Horus got smacked around and was threatened by the Interex?

What is your point? He was threatened by them. I was once threatened by a toddler with a fork. Doesn't make me weak. It certainly doesn't demonstrate in any way that Horus was weaker in single combat.

GoingtoHell wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Imperial_Arson wrote:
Along with Sanguinius, Horus, Angron, and Magnus.

I would actually think Fulgrim would be there equally if not more with Horus and Angron, since Fulgrim is on the road to perfection.. He seems like he would be the master of martial arts(not just kung fu, but sword technique, etc)..

Horus shouldn't be in the top five. He was only powerful or impressive after the buff by the Chaos Gods, but even then Vulkan or Magnus would probably smack him down, and hard.

That's a load of utter crap.

XXXX

Except it's true. Horus wasn't remarkable during the Great Crusade- his use came at being a politician. Meanwhile, most of the top tier Primarchs would smack him around with relative ease, what with Vulkan being invincible (and IIRC, the strongest), Magnus able to blow him to pieces with psyker prowess being the second strongest psyker in the galaxy, and Fulgrim as well, considering IIRC he tanked a Titan P-Cannon.

The fact that Fulgrim survived a P-cannon shot is not a credible argument as to why he would defeat Horus. Vulcan being perpetual does not make him the strongest. Firstly there are weapons that can kill perpetuals, secondly Horus' fighting style would see him a mass of severed tendons and ruined muscle. Yes he would never die but he would be incapacitated. As for Magnus destroying him, Horus has some of the most powerful psychic wards on his armour. If we are talking per corruption Horus, yeah Magnus might edge it. Corrupted Horus? Never. Not on any level.

XXXX


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It's true.

Horus was never the strongest fighter.

He was never the best strategist.

His legion didn't have the best conqueror method.

Horus was above-average at all three, but master of none.

What quality he did possess, above all others, was that he was a people person. Every Primarch, bar none, liked him. He was feared by on one, he intimidated no one, everyone loved him all of the time.

That's why he was made Warmaster.

I'm am talking about mid Heresy Horus (before he was corrupted), Dorn feared him above any other and said he beloved he could defeat Angron in combat but not Horus. Corax also states that Horus was the best in single combat, one of the two who could best Angron followed by Sanguinius. Your argument lacking any citations or fluff backing it up has no grounds here...


XXXX

You mean like how Horus got smacked around and was threatened by the Interex?

What is your point? He was threatened by them. I was once threatened by a toddler with a fork. Doesn't make me weak. It certainly doesn't demonstrate in any way that Horus was weaker in single combat.

It just shows that you as a person has trouble judging the difference between Real and Non-Real Threats. Horus also let a Plague Zombie poke him with a sword.

 kinratha wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Imperial_Arson wrote:
Along with Sanguinius, Horus, Angron, and Magnus.

I would actually think Fulgrim would be there equally if not more with Horus and Angron, since Fulgrim is on the road to perfection.. He seems like he would be the master of martial arts(not just kung fu, but sword technique, etc)..

Horus shouldn't be in the top five. He was only powerful or impressive after the buff by the Chaos Gods, but even then Vulkan or Magnus would probably smack him down, and hard.

That's a load of utter crap.

XXXX

Except it's true. Horus wasn't remarkable during the Great Crusade- his use came at being a politician. Meanwhile, most of the top tier Primarchs would smack him around with relative ease, what with Vulkan being invincible (and IIRC, the strongest), Magnus able to blow him to pieces with psyker prowess being the second strongest psyker in the galaxy, and Fulgrim as well, considering IIRC he tanked a Titan P-Cannon.

The fact that Fulgrim survived a P-cannon shot is not a credible argument as to why he would defeat Horus. Vulcan being perpetual does not make him the strongest. Firstly there are weapons that can kill perpetuals, secondly Horus' fighting style would see him a mass of severed tendons and ruined muscle. Yes he would never die but he would be incapacitated. As for Magnus destroying him, Horus has some of the most powerful psychic wards on his armour. If we are talking per corruption Horus, yeah Magnus might edge it. Corrupted Horus? Never. Not on any level.

XXXX


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It's true.

Horus was never the strongest fighter.

He was never the best strategist.

His legion didn't have the best conqueror method.

Horus was above-average at all three, but master of none.

What quality he did possess, above all others, was that he was a people person. Every Primarch, bar none, liked him. He was feared by on one, he intimidated no one, everyone loved him all of the time.

That's why he was made Warmaster.

I'm am talking about mid Heresy Horus (before he was corrupted), Dorn feared him above any other and said he beloved he could defeat Angron in combat but not Horus. Corax also states that Horus was the best in single combat, one of the two who could best Angron followed by Sanguinius. Your argument lacking any citations or fluff backing it up has no grounds here...


XXXX

You mean like how Horus got smacked around and was threatened by the Interex?

What is your point? He was threatened by them. I was once threatened by a toddler with a fork. Doesn't make me weak. It certainly doesn't demonstrate in any way that Horus was weaker in single combat.

It just shows that you as a person has trouble judging the difference between Real and Non-Real Threats. Horus also let a Plague Zombie poke him with a sword.

No you're right at the time that toddler utterly terrified me with that fork...I assume you are talking about Temba? If so you really should read sources first before you spew inane facts (incorrectly). Yes Horus was wounded but not by Temba, by the sword. It actually states in the book that Horus was practically fighting the sword and that it was moving too fast to follow. Evident by his appearance and the fact that he wielded a blade as powerful as Kinebrach Anathema, a weapon that has the power to lay low a primarch we can infer that Temba was in very high standing with Nurgle and therefore imbued with great strength and speed. Horus was also fighting in a rage and in a style unbefitting of his usual combat tactics which would certainly have impacted his performance. He in the end slaughtered Temba and while he was focused on killing him was stabbed in the shoulder. Another thing that you forgot to mention and something that is far more relevan than the event you raised was that jus before he fought Temba, he literally cleaved his way through hundreds of plague bearers.

XXXX

No you're right at the time that toddler utterly terrified me with that fork...I assume you are talking about Temba? If so you really should read sources first before you spew inane facts (incorrectly). Yes Horus was wounded but not by Temba, by the sword. It actually states in the book that Horus was practically fighting the sword and that it was moving too fast to follow. Evident by his appearance and the fact that he wielded a blade as powerful as Kinebrach Anathema, a weapon that has the power to lay low a primarch we can infer that Temba was in very high standing with Nurgle and therefore imbued with great strength and speed. Horus was also fighting in a rage and in a style unbefitting of his usual combat tactics which would certainly have impacted his performance. He in the end slaughtered Temba and while he was focused on killing him was stabbed in the shoulder. Another thing that you forgot to mention and something that is far more relevan than the event you raised was that jus before he fought Temba, he literally cleaved his way through hundreds of plague bearers.

XXXX

Either way, he lost his cool and was poked by a sword. And If i remember from the book, All the Plague zombies were from the imperial guard stationed there, so probably no plague bearers.

I also doubt that Temba was important to Nurgle, just a pawn and bait for the trap.

To be fair, I doubt Night Haunter actually liked him.

(Though I may have missed something, I have not read every HH book yet.)

 kinratha wrote:


It just shows that you as a person has trouble judging the difference between Real and Non-Real Threats. Horus also let a Plague Zombie poke him with a sword.

No you're right at the time that toddler utterly terrified me with that fork...I assume you are talking about Temba? If so you really should read sources first before you spew inane facts (incorrectly). Yes Horus was wounded but not by Temba, by the sword. It actually states in the book that Horus was practically fighting the sword and that it was moving too fast to follow. Evident by his appearance and the fact that he wielded a blade as powerful as Kinebrach Anathema, a weapon that has the power to lay low a primarch we can infer that Temba was in very high standing with Nurgle and therefore imbued with great strength and speed. Horus was also fighting in a rage and in a style unbefitting of his usual combat tactics which would certainly have impacted his performance. He in the end slaughtered Temba and while he was focused on killing him was stabbed in the shoulder. Another thing that you forgot to mention and something that is far more relevan than the event you raised was that jus before he fought Temba, he literally cleaved his way through hundreds of plague bearers.

XXXX

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It's true.

Horus was never the strongest fighter.

He was never the best strategist.

His legion didn't have the best conqueror record.

Horus was above-average at all three, but master of none.

What quality he did possess, above all others, was that he was a people person. Every Primarch, bar none, liked him. He was feared by on one, he intimidated no one, everyone loved him all of the time.

That's why he was made Warmaster.

Not entirely true, but the gist is correct.

Angron certainly didn't like Horus, for example.

Also, his Legion did have the highest amount of victories.

Anyway, Lorgar > Horus, Magnus > Lorgar, therefore Magnus >> Horus

Fact!

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It's true.

Horus was never the strongest fighter.

He was never the best strategist.

His legion didn't have the best conqueror record.

Horus was above-average at all three, but master of none.

What quality he did possess, above all others, was that he was a people person. Every Primarch, bar none, liked him. He was feared by on one, he intimidated no one, everyone loved him all of the time.

That's why he was made Warmaster.

Not entirely true, but the gist is correct.

Angron certainly didn't like Horus, for example.

Also, his Legion did have the highest amount of victories.

Anyway, Lorgar > Horus, Magnus > Lorgar, therefore Magnus >> Lorgar.

Fact!

Do you mean 'Magnus >> Horus'?

What do you mean

Sigh are people still debating this?

How many times must this be stated before it sinks in? Horus has always been numero uno, and he will continue to be the #1 Primarch in future too.
This is an undisputable fact.

... what they're debating is how he is numero uno. In what fashion is he numero uno.

It... it helps to read discussions.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
... what they're debating is how he is numero uno. In what fashion is he numero uno.

It... it helps to read discussions.

True. My comment was more directed towards for those people, who think along the lines of this.

 Wyzilla wrote:
'Cause he never really does anything exceptionally impressive. Yeah, he smacked around the Emperor, but he was holding back and previously Horus was wounded by human space elves. Meanwhile, Vulkan's effectively invincible and Magnus is the second strongest psyker in the galaxy. I'd even put the likes of Angron, Russ, Sanguinius, and Fulgrim over Horus.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
... what they're debating is how he is numero uno. In what fashion is he numero uno.

It... it helps to read discussions.

True. My comment was more directed towards for those people, who think along the lines of this.

 Wyzilla wrote:
'Cause he never really does anything exceptionally impressive. Yeah, he smacked around the Emperor, but he was holding back and previously Horus was wounded by human space elves. Meanwhile, Vulkan's effectively invincible and Magnus is the second strongest psyker in the galaxy. I'd even put the likes of Angron, Russ, Sanguinius, and Fulgrim over Horus.

Because that's what we have as evidence. As far as feats are concerned, Horus is up a creek without a paddle compared to other primarchs who eat plasma, have wolverine-level regeneration, or are second only to the Emperor in psyker power. Horus simply is the Mario, jack of none. The only real power he holds is as a skillful politician, partially thanks to Maloghurst.

 Redcruisair wrote:
Sigh are people still debating this?

How many times must this be stated before it sinks in? Horus has always been numero uno, and he will continue to be the #1 Primarch in future too.
This is an undisputable fact.

I beat you in that debate though.

Which reminds me, guess I should respond in the other thread.

 Wyzilla wrote:
[
Horus shouldn't be in the top five. He was only powerful or impressive after the buff by the Chaos Gods, but even then Vulkan or Magnus would probably smack him down, and hard.

Guess one of those two should have teleported aboard the Vengeful Spirit then huh? Seeing as they could do a better job than the Emperor and all...

No one save the Emperor could defeat Horus after glutting on Chaos, IMO.

MarsNZ wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
[
Horus shouldn't be in the top five. He was only powerful or impressive after the buff by the Chaos Gods, but even then Vulkan or Magnus would probably smack him down, and hard.

Guess one of those two should have teleported aboard the Vengeful Spirit then huh? Seeing as they could do a better job than the Emperor and all...

Neither Vulkan or Magnus were present last I recalled. And Magnus had fallen to Chaos by the Battle of Terra.

Guess I should use sarcasm tags, 2/2 posters seemed to have missed it.

By that logic then Chaos Magnus could have saved the Heresy for the Traitors with ease, simply go and do what Horus didn't quite manage, [SARCASM]should be easy seeing as the Emperor isn't even on his level[/SARCASM]

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
... what they're debating is how he is numero uno. In what fashion is he numero uno.

It... it helps to read discussions.

True. My comment was more directed towards for those people, who think along the lines of this.

 Wyzilla wrote:
'Cause he never really does anything exceptionally impressive. Yeah, he smacked around the Emperor, but he was holding back and previously Horus was wounded by human space elves. Meanwhile, Vulkan's effectively invincible and Magnus is the second strongest psyker in the galaxy. I'd even put the likes of Angron, Russ, Sanguinius, and Fulgrim over Horus.

Because that's what we have as evidence. As far as feats are concerned, Horus is up a creek without a paddle compared to other primarchs who eat plasma, have wolverine-level regeneration, or are second only to the Emperor in psyker power. Horus simply is the Mario, jack of none. The only real power he holds is as a skillful politician, partially thanks to Maloghurst.

Have you ever considered that is because he doesn't put him self in positions that lead to him having to do that? His legion has the most victories while not being the largest or the best equipped. Therefore it stands to reason he was probably in the most number of battles. And yet he never has to tank plasma shots or fight titans. The others had to because they were forced to, not out of choice.

XXXX

GoingtoHell wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
... what they're debating is how he is numero uno. In what fashion is he numero uno.

It... it helps to read discussions.

True. My comment was more directed towards for those people, who think along the lines of this.

 Wyzilla wrote:
'Cause he never really does anything exceptionally impressive. Yeah, he smacked around the Emperor, but he was holding back and previously Horus was wounded by human space elves. Meanwhile, Vulkan's effectively invincible and Magnus is the second strongest psyker in the galaxy. I'd even put the likes of Angron, Russ, Sanguinius, and Fulgrim over Horus.

Because that's what we have as evidence. As far as feats are concerned, Horus is up a creek without a paddle compared to other primarchs who eat plasma, have wolverine-level regeneration, or are second only to the Emperor in psyker power. Horus simply is the Mario, jack of none. The only real power he holds is as a skillful politician, partially thanks to Maloghurst.

Have you ever considered that is because he doesn't put him self in positions that lead to him having to do that? His legion has the most victories while not being the largest or the best equipped. Therefore it stands to reason he was probably in the most number of battles. And yet he never has to tank plasma shots or fight titans. The others had to because they were forced to, not out of choice.

XXXX

That's not how feats work. Did he ever display prowess in combat on the level of Magnus or Vulkan or eat Titan plasma like Lorgar? If no, there's no reason why he should be believed to be as powerful as the other primarchs.

The fact that Lorgar managed to hold up a warhounds foot without prolapsing his rectum is admirable.

Its not something i think Fulgrim pre/post daemonhood would ever achieve.

badgermeister wrote:
The fact that Lorgar managed to hold up a warhounds foot without prolapsing his rectum is admirable.

Its not something i think Fulgrim pre/post daemonhood would ever achieve.

From what I know it was Angron, not Lorgar, who wrestled with the Warhound.

Loyalist Fulgrim probably wouldn't, but Daemon Primarch Fulgrim probably would cut a Scout Titan to ribbons. Don't forget he defeated the Spiritual Liege!

 Wyzilla wrote:
Because that's what we have as evidence. As far as feats are concerned, Horus is up a creek without a paddle compared to other primarchs who eat plasma, have wolverine-level regeneration, or are second only to the Emperor in psyker power. Horus simply is the Mario, jack of none. The only real power he holds is as a skillful politician, partially thanks to Maloghurst.

And that isn't impressive? Without inviting other comparisons - I'm a pretty big guy. And I've seen pictures of Hitler. I'm pretty sure if I ever met him in person, I could probably beat him up, even kill him. I mean, he was kinda weedy, and all he had going for him was his ambition and skills as an orator and politician. Yet one of us turned a destitute country into the world's premiere fighting force of it's time, and the other is spending his morning debating the strengths and weaknesses of fictional characters that get into a fight. Which one of us is the most powerful?

 SarisKhan wrote:

badgermeister wrote:
The fact that Lorgar managed to hold up a warhounds foot without prolapsing his rectum is admirable.

Its not something i think Fulgrim pre/post daemonhood would ever achieve.

From what I know it was Angron, not Lorgar, who wrestled with the Warhound.

Loyalist Fulgrim probably wouldn't, but Daemon Primarch Fulgrim probably would cut a Scout Titan to ribbons. Don't forget he defeated the Spiritual Liege!

Pre-serpent Fulgrim has already done what you just described there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:
Sigh are people still debating this?

How many times must this be stated before it sinks in? Horus has always been numero uno, and he will continue to be the #1 Primarch in future too.
This is an undisputable fact.

I beat you in that debate though.

I will let the community of Dakka be the judge of that.

tgjensen wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Because that's what we have as evidence. As far as feats are concerned, Horus is up a creek without a paddle compared to other primarchs who eat plasma, have wolverine-level regeneration, or are second only to the Emperor in psyker power. Horus simply is the Mario, jack of none. The only real power he holds is as a skillful politician, partially thanks to Maloghurst.

And that isn't impressive? Without inviting other comparisons - I'm a pretty big guy. And I've seen pictures of Hitler. I'm pretty sure if I ever met him in person, I could probably beat him up, even kill him. I mean, he was kinda weedy, and all he had going for him was his ambition and skills as an orator and politician. Yet one of us turned a destitute country into the world's premiere fighting force of it's time, and the other is spending his morning debating the strengths and weaknesses of fictional characters that get into a fight. Which one of us is the most powerful?

well... you're still Alive

tgjensen wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Because that's what we have as evidence. As far as feats are concerned, Horus is up a creek without a paddle compared to other primarchs who eat plasma, have wolverine-level regeneration, or are second only to the Emperor in psyker power. Horus simply is the Mario, jack of none. The only real power he holds is as a skillful politician, partially thanks to Maloghurst.

And that isn't impressive? Without inviting other comparisons - I'm a pretty big guy. And I've seen pictures of Hitler. I'm pretty sure if I ever met him in person, I could probably beat him up, even kill him. I mean, he was kinda weedy, and all he had going for him was his ambition and skills as an orator and politician. Yet one of us turned a destitute country into the world's premiere fighting force of it's time, and the other is spending his morning debating the strengths and weaknesses of fictional characters that get into a fight. Which one of us is the most powerful?

Yes. Because in a fight you'd probably beat the snot out of Hitler, making you the stronger person in a fight.

And we're on the second page and Nazis have already been invoked. I think this is a record.

GoingtoHell wrote:
And show me some sources or examples that dispute the dpfsct that another 2 other primaries claim he is the most powerful. I used a one line argument to counter his as we had previously had a debate about this very same topic in another thread.
Responding to my comment with pointless and totally unsupported one line sentences is not a valid argument.

XXXX

He was never stated to be the "Most powerful". He was stated to be the "Best".

The two are not the same thing.

In this case, "The best" is viewed through the lens of a pacifistic idealist who was conquering the galaxy for its own good (the Emperor, I mean), so of course he viewed the "perfect diplomat" as the best primarch, rather than the "supreme duelist", "the prophet", "the wizard" or "the mad dog" (and who can guess which primarchs I gave which titles?)

How was the emperor even remotely a pacifist?

He wanted everyone to be friends. He didn't want to fight. He just understood that the galaxy is a crapsack that needs subjugating before they can stop fighting.

Appointing a perceived pacifist for the rank of Warmaster sounds really silly. The Emprah was a well-intentioned extremist, not a goody two-shoes. I think some of you are trying to hard to prove that Horus was "nothing special". Most of the arguments range from semi-rational to asinine.

Seriously, labelling him as "the best" in official sources time and again was most likely intended to convey that he was the best, not "kind of good", or "above average".

Regarding Fulgrim wrestling with a Titan, I assume that happened in Reflection Crack'd? I must read that story at last.

The emperor did not want everyone to be friends, he wanted humanity to exterminate the other alien races. These anti Horus arguments are ridiculous! He has always been stated by the other primarch so as the best Ina fight as well as being the greatest among them how is there this much dispute over it?

Who stated Horus was the best in a fight? I want names.

The Emperor was in peace talks with the Interex. If that's not "I don't want to have to exterminate you", I don't know what is.

Corax said in ravens flight that horus and possibly sanguinius was the only one capable of beating angron in combat. Lorgar in betrayer says that horus and angron are the only ones capable of beating sanguinius when he has nothing else to lose.

Ceann Fine wrote:
Corax said in ravens flight that horus and possibly sanguinius was the only one capable of beating angron in combat. Lorgar in betrayer says that horus and angron are the only ones capable of beating sanguinius when he has nothing else to lose.

This. People who say Horus is weak seem to consistently forget this part if the fluff and often conveniently ignore it when it arises because there is no logical counter to it.

XXXX

GoingtoHell wrote:

Ceann Fine wrote:
Corax said in ravens flight that horus and possibly sanguinius was the only one capable of beating angron in combat. Lorgar in betrayer says that horus and angron are the only ones capable of beating sanguinius when he has nothing else to lose.

This. People who say Horus is weak seem to consistently forget this part if the fluff and often conveniently ignore it when it arises because there is no logical counter to it.

XXXX

And Vulkan says he is the strongest if he doesnt hold back. All these 'say'/'said'/'believe' is a personal preference by a primarch. Some of them havent even really spoken, barely knowing each other. For the strong/weak in combat were going on proven feats, like the ones that place Lorgar and Magnus above Horus.
For example, did Horus ever prove he could manage against two primarchs before his Chaos buff? Else we can place Konrad above him in terms of combat.

Just so we're clear here we are now going beyond what other primarchs have said due to the belief it's nor relevant? Curse at one time held off two primarchs and on another occasion got nearly killed by one of those two. Why when it's outright stated by other primarchs that horus was the greatest of them in combat it's not accepted and yet people wax lyrical about the possibility of what Magnus among others could do

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

And Vulkan says he is the strongest if he doesnt hold back.

I thought he meant that in terms of being physically the strongest not necessarily the best in a fight.

For example, did Horus ever prove he could manage against two primarchs before his Chaos buff? Else we can place Konrad above him in terms of combat.

My understanding of that is that Curze was merely buying time. He wouldn't have one and it's unlikely it would have lasted a great deal longer had it continued.

Just because Horus hasn't achieved any grand "feat" that we know of doesn't mean he hasn't done them off-camera. Maybe Horus can tank 50 plasma shots. Maybe he can't. We don't know. Therefore it's premature to say Lorgor or Fulgrim are stronger than Horus just because they did things while Horus has yet to have any examples. The only way we can actually LOGICALLY say "Lorgar is stronger than Horus because he lifted a Titan" is if we have a counter example of "Horus tried to lift a Titan once but failed", which we don't have. Until then, you're trying to compare a known variable (Lorgar can lift a Titan) to an unknown variable (can Horus lift a Titan? We don't know!). And that's NOT how actual logic is supposed to work. That's the equivalent of saying "55 > A in every situation, where "A" is unknown" while forgoing the possibility that maybe "A" = 56 or above, but we can't tell because WE DON'T KNOW.

...that said, Horus and the rest of the primarchs do have rules in the Forge World Horus Heresy series if you really want to do comparisons. Goodness knows that's probably going to get more consistant results than the crazy smorgasboard "as strong as the plot demands" stuff you'll get trying to make comparisons from Black Library.

Allow me to suggest this,

Most of the Primarchs in question right now, seem to be those who have fallen to Chaos. Let it be known that that fact alone proves their weakness, not their strength. They have all traded something that made them truly great, for power, and they have all suffered as a result, at the hands of beings greater than all of them and (as it stands to be seen) the Emperor is well.

All are pawns at the hands of the Chaos Gods. But them being "wimps" in comparison to the forces that supply them isn't an end to the conversation in itself either. Let's not forget that Fulgrim choked the life out of an Avatar of Khaine and Horus, while wounded by the Interex, was still dealing with a race that far out classed the Imperium. I don't know if it's ever stated that the Interex lose their war with the Imperium, but I know it happens and Horus doesn't get to prosecute it and it isn't really stated who does. Let's also not forget that the incident with the Interex also takes place on their home planet, in their stronghold, with no warning what-so-ever, during peace talks where they were as unarmed as they could be. And Horus still fought through the Centaurs bows that were killing Astartes left and right, while under a massive haze of confusion stirred up by the forces of Chaos (at this time acting through Erebus).

Let it be known at this time that no event in the Heresy, no matter how seemingly insignificant, was without its own great importance. The meeting of the Interex which led to the downtrodden spirits of Horus, his fateful encounter on Davin against (yes) Plaguebearers of Nurgul. Even his limited knowledge of the Warp was all seemingly written to a T when you start looking at the actual Chaos Gods and how they operate in a timeless state, as is the Warp.

So top 5 Primarchs? My list is based solely on description and tactic since I haven't read enough solid material to lend a better opinion. But I'd say somewhere that it goes,

Horus, Magnus, Dorn, Girlyman and then maybe Fulgrim. I say Girlyman because from what I understand, he's still alive, he's also been defeated and he apparently still possess all of the best traits of the other primarchs, including Fulgrims swordsmanship, Dorns anger, perhaps Magnus prescience (to a degree, not sure) and even Horus charisma and strategem.

But Horus is dead. Magnus is in despair and seems reliant on Ahriman. Dorn is dead (I think), Girlyman lives with the cream of the crop, supposedly, per what little I know of the Ultramarines and then Fulgrim for overtaking his Daemon, though like I said, he has lost much in his possession. Like sanity. >>

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

And Vulkan says he is the strongest if he doesnt hold back.

I thought he meant that in terms of being physically the strongest not necessarily the best in a fight.

He might as well have meant that, but the point is that he might think so, yet he has never proven it. The same goes for what the other Primarchs believed Horus could do, yet it was never proven. That is were the issue lies, how does one know if these statements are true if the fight never happens. One could argue around in circles about this Primarch beating this Primarch, so in extension being able to beat this one because the other one could too etc.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
For example, did Horus ever prove he could manage against two primarchs before his Chaos buff? Else we can place Konrad above him in terms of combat.

My understanding of that is that Curze was merely buying time. He wouldn't have one and it's unlikely it would have lasted a great deal longer had it continued.

Yes he was buying time,
but the fact is that he could do so against two other primarchs, while still being able to succeed in his plan, which would have worked if not for...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
But Horus is dead. Magnus is in despair and seems reliant on Ahriman. Dorn is dead (I think), Girlyman lives with the cream of the crop, supposedly, per what little I know of the Ultramarines and then Fulgrim for overtaking his Daemon, though like I said, he has lost much in his possession. Like sanity. >>

Guilleman is as good as dead, he is being preserved in the moment of death. So its about the same as Dorn, there is a tiny opening to allow magic/miracle GW writing. The interex was crushed somewhere along the fall of Horus since Davin.

Interesting idea to view weakness in that way, but how would Horus rank, having fallen while a brother warned him of the trap? Off course the others didnt do much better, but Horus seems to have fallen quite fast.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Who stated Horus was the best in a fight? I want names.

The Emperor was in peace talks with the Interex. If that's not "I don't want to have to exterminate you", I don't know what is.

The Emperor never even met the Interex, lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TiamatRoar wrote:
Just because Horus hasn't achieved any grand "feat" that we know of doesn't mean he hasn't done them off-camera. Maybe Horus can tank 50 plasma shots. Maybe he can't. We don't know. Therefore it's premature to say Lorgor or Fulgrim are stronger than Horus just because they did things while Horus has yet to have any examples. The only way we can actually LOGICALLY say "Lorgar is stronger than Horus because he lifted a Titan" is if we have a counter example of "Horus tried to lift a Titan once but failed", which we don't have. Until then, you're trying to compare a known variable (Lorgar can lift a Titan) to an unknown variable (can Horus lift a Titan? We don't know!). And that's NOT how actual logic is supposed to work. That's the equivalent of saying "55 > A in every situation, where "A" is unknown" while forgoing the possibility that maybe "A" = 56 or above, but we can't tell because WE DON'T KNOW.

...that said, Horus and the rest of the primarchs do have rules in the Forge World Horus Heresy series if you really want to do comparisons. Goodness knows that's probably going to get more consistant results than the crazy smorgasboard "as strong as the plot demands" stuff you'll get trying to make comparisons from Black Library.

We can say Lorgar is stronger than Horus because Lorgar telepathically dominated him, lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

Horus, Magnus, Dorn, Girlyman and then maybe Fulgrim. I say Girlyman because from what I understand, he's still alive, he's also been defeated and he apparently still possess all of the best traits of the other primarchs, including Fulgrims swordsmanship, Dorns anger, perhaps Magnus prescience (to a degree, not sure) and even Horus charisma and strategem.

This thread's context is that of a duel, apparently.

Guilliman was nearly killed by Angron, all who bore witness commented on Angron's superiority in a one on one manfight.

Dorn is eh, he was nearly killed by Curze, but there is probably some context to that fight.

Sanguinius is probably the better duelist among loyalists, as is Leman Russ, and both also have some amount of psychic prowess to aid them, especially Sanguinius.

But Horus is dead. Magnus is in despair and seems reliant on Ahriman. Dorn is dead (I think), Girlyman lives with the cream of the crop, supposedly, per what little I know of the Ultramarines and then Fulgrim for overtaking his Daemon, though like I said, he has lost much in his possession. Like sanity. >>

Magnus banished Ahriman, he isn't reliant on him, lol.

Dorn is probably dead, and Guilliman might as well be dead. Fulgrim stabbed him in the neck with a poisoned blade as a daemon and Guilliman has been frozen in stasis for thousands of years, to keep him from dying.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

We can say Lorgar is stronger than Horus because Lorgar telepathically dominated him, lol.

Now that's fair enough (assuming that happened as is).

It wouldnt be the fulgrim heresy, instead it would be the fulgrim fiasco.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
It wouldnt be the fulgrim heresy, instead it would be the fulgrim fiasco.

Fulgrim was the weakest of the primarchs in my honest opinion.

Lorgar and The Lion were the best Masters of War.

Ceann Fine wrote:
Iirc he only knocked Russ out after Russ started laughing about how stupid the fight was

Agreed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Imperial_Arson wrote:
Along with Sanguinius, Horus, Angron, and Magnus.

I would actually think Fulgrim would be there equally if not more with Horus and Angron, since Fulgrim is on the road to perfection.. He seems like he would be the master of martial arts(not just kung fu, but sword technique, etc)..

Horus shouldn't be in the top five. He was only powerful or impressive after the buff by the Chaos Gods, but even then Vulkan or Magnus would probably smack him down, and hard.

That's a load of utter crap.

XXXX

Agreed. Horus was the "best" primarch, hence hiM being, ya know, WARMASTER.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kinratha wrote:

No you're right at the time that toddler utterly terrified me with that fork...I assume you are talking about Temba? If so you really should read sources first before you spew inane facts (incorrectly). Yes Horus was wounded but not by Temba, by the sword. It actually states in the book that Horus was practically fighting the sword and that it was moving too fast to follow. Evident by his appearance and the fact that he wielded a blade as powerful as Kinebrach Anathema, a weapon that has the power to lay low a primarch we can infer that Temba was in very high standing with Nurgle and therefore imbued with great strength and speed. Horus was also fighting in a rage and in a style unbefitting of his usual combat tactics which would certainly have impacted his performance. He in the end slaughtered Temba and while he was focused on killing him was stabbed in the shoulder. Another thing that you forgot to mention and something that is far more relevan than the event you raised was that jus before he fought Temba, he literally cleaved his way through hundreds of plague bearers.

XXXX

Either way, he lost his cool and was poked by a sword. And If i remember from the book, All the Plague zombies were from the imperial guard stationed there, so probably no plague bearers.

I also doubt that Temba was important to Nurgle, just a pawn and bait for the trap.

" green-fleshed things with horribly distended bellies" paragraph 2, page 118, false gods.
"vclouds of flies surrounded their cyclopian, horned heads." paragraph 3, page 143, flase gods.
Sounds a gak load like plague bearers to me.

Wouldnt angron stand a chance against the lion in fist to fist? I don't know a lot about him but what i have read said he was turned into a gladiator with stim pumps and essentially tore people apart. That and how "angry" he is.

 Rotary wrote:
Wouldnt angron stand a chance against the lion in fist to fist? I don't know a lot about him but what i have read said he was turned into a gladiator with stim pumps and essentially tore people apart. That and how "angry" he is.

Antron would murder the lion according to Corax, the fact that he slapped Russ around without a 3 day fight kinda proves this.

We don't really have a great idea, how much a primarch could "gauge" each other.

I don't find Corax as a valid source, as he seems pretty much wrong, all the time. Maybe the whole whiner thing puts me off.

On topic, Fulgrim has a two primarch body count. Carries the blade that wounded Horus, which apparently you just tell it who dies, and it happens.

I've read nearly all the HH books (Vulkan lives I couldn't make it past a hundred pages and I put down unremembered for other reasons), and I do not recall any situation in which Fulgrim doesn't make it through virtually unharmed.

So Fulgrim's whipping count : One Avatar of Khaine, one titan, Ferrus (twice), Roboute. As far as "badass foes", he's missing what, a daemon prince?

Off topic, though I enjoy these posts/debates, I would really love to see definitions. "Top 5 = duelist ability" or "Top 5 = all around effectiveness as a commander".

Oh, Primarch threads, ive been here before.

Attempting to get this back on track, yes, I'd put Fulgy in the top 5 considering he killed 2 other primarchs and has only been getting stronger since.

Didn't also take pretty long - when compared to other fallen primarchs - for Fulgrim to fall to chaos? Something like 5 years while Horus was something like a few months tops?

It took Fulgrim one day.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
It took Fulgrim one day.

Well, wasn't the daemon in the sword constantly eating away at his mind and when Fulgrim was finally at his most fragile (having just shortened Ferrus by 30 cm or so), it took the opportunity to completely break him?

I don't know about Fulgrim, but I'd vouch Alpharius for any duel

 Void__Dragon wrote:
It took Fulgrim one day.

No, unless you're referring to the "point of no return event", which obviously isn't something that would take long. The entire process lasted a few years, from the visit to the temple of the Laer to the death of Ferrus Manus.

Meh, these threads are pointless and childish. They always end in fanboys claiming that their primarchs are the awesomest ever.

And even a five year old child will see that it is: Horus, Sanguinius, Magnus, Angron & Russ, with the Lion as a 6th (probably a draw with Russ).

It is obvious!!!

In terms of significance, strength, or power? Just curious. In terms of power I would push Magnus and prop up Lorgar into the tops. In terms of significance, Magnus really propped up librarians, also before or after or during the HH? During and before Sanguinus is certainly second to Horus (or third) with Lorgar being somewhere in the top 3 since he was the first to really fall to chaos. After the war though, Gulliman certainly becomes one of the most important.

B-b-but da001 if we don't sensilesly bicker, then we will not satisfy the gods of chaos! The rage and nerd wars feed Khorne, the pleasure in a good post and this being about fulgrim pleasures Slaanesh, the never ending decay of our brain cells feeds Nurgle, and Tzeentch's fingers tap together as some opinions change, an eternal cycle of chaos twirling, twisting, and snapping!

 StarTrotter wrote:
(...)
B-b-but da001 if we don't sensilesly bicker, then we will not satisfy the gods of chaos! The rage and nerd wars feed Khorne, the pleasure in a good post and this being about fulgrim pleasures Slaanesh, the never ending decay of our brain cells feeds Nurgle, and Tzeentch's fingers tap together as some opinions change, an eternal cycle of chaos twirling, twisting, and snapping!

Hey you are right. Alas, I miss the times when sacrificing lambs and covering myself in entrails was enough.

 SarisKhan wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
It took Fulgrim one day.

No, unless you're referring to the "point of no return event", which obviously isn't something that would take long. The entire process lasted a few years, from the visit to the temple of the Laer to the death of Ferrus Manus.

The visit to the temple was all it took to corrupt the Legion though.

The emperor appointed Horus because he believed that Horus would always find a way to win. I suspect that this would apply to any one on one battles with his brothers (except Magnus) before he was corrupted and his judgment was impaired.

Raw strength is not the only determining factor. I think Horus would especially dominate Fulgrim in a duel because he completely had him psyched out. Horus would not let any stylistic considerations affect how he fought wheras Fulgrim probably limited his techniques artificially.

The most powerful primarch by far had to be Magnus I just cant see it any other way he could do things the other primarchs could not deal with, easily.

Fulgrim is interesting because he has had a lot written about him but even before his corruption he was full of pride and had many insecurities. He clearly mishandled the invasion of the Laern homeworld and wasted the lives and resources of his legion just because he wanted to conquer them in the framework of an artificial and unneccasarily short time period.

The speed and depth of his legion's fall suggests that it was very flawed and as leader Fulgrim is responsible for those flaws. Interestingly his subcommander that he murdered resisted the demon that was directly trying to corrupt him. The same demon that actually corrupted Fulgrim, so I geuss Fulgrim was actually weaker than some human/space marines!

Like the Greek gods it is the weaknesses not their super powers that make the primarchs interesting.

FAILGRUM had many weaknesses, top five primarch? Not by a long margin.

Lorgar Heresy

JWhex wrote:
Interestingly his subcommander that he murdered resisted the demon that was directly trying to corrupt him. The same demon that actually corrupted Fulgrim, so I geuss Fulgrim was actually weaker than some human/space marines!

You know, Fulgrim had been resisting the daemon for years even though for a long time he was unaware there was something to resist, and gave in to him only when Ferrus, his closest brother, died by his hand. Resisting said daemon knowingly for a while doesn't seem impressive in comparison.

Fulgrim's swordmanship could make him a contender but his overall qualities were not up to scratch. At the end of the day he was quite petty.

Horus was vital to everything. Horus was the cornerstone of the Imperium. He was needed as Warmaster to lead the GC so the Emperor could return and lay the foundations of the modern Imperium and be a political leader while the Warmaster, well, led the War effort.

Horus was also vital for its destruction. No other Primarch could have led it. None of the traitors had enough friends to lead it, and if Horus had stayed loyal its a good chance most of the traitors would too.

Lion wouldn't have had backing from anyone.

Fulgrim's only friends were Ferrus Manus (who rejected him in the HH), Kurze, for educating him, and Horus. And if Horus stayed loyal, and Manus was loyal anyway, Curze would have been his only helper. And Conrad's Legion together with Fulgrim's tiny legion would not have been enough. Space Wolves would've crushed them, soH's would have, Ultramarines, World Eaters.

Perturabo had too little friends and his arch-rival Dorn had a number. Plus Horus on the opposing team.

The Khan was well respected but not enough to go traitor for by anyone.

Kurze was generally disliked by all but Fulgrim and Horus, and neither would go bad for him.

Dorn had some friends but he's a die-hard Goody 2-shoes with his head so far up the Emperor's ass he can give a colonoscopy, and would never go bad.

Sanguinius. Well, he wasn't a goody two-shoes like Dorn, but he was FAR too noble to fall, even after Horus, his best friend, and Horus' own best friend wanted him to, and he lost a good number of sons to the forces of Khorne.

Ferrus was asked by Fulgrim directly and they fought (and then later fought to the death). No question here.

Angron had no friends to start a revolt.

Ultramarines might have but some allies but Guilliman had no reason to revolt, and even with inflated numbers, no one would have sided with him over Horus or the Emperor.

Mortarion had few friend if any.

Magnus had a tiny titchy legion and no-one would have sided with him, except maybe Lorgar, who was disliked and looked down on all around.

Lorgar had so few friends and allies he had no chance on his own (hence why he recruited Horus) and even Magnus would have help stop him.

Corax had a few friends but not enough sway to revolt.

Vulkan was pretty well liked but not enough to revolt.

Alpharius Omegon had no friends other than Horus and no where near the ability to fight a war against 17 other legions. Of course, it doesn't matter because they only turned traitor to make sure Horus won so Chaos would be forever destroyed or whatever.




So regardless of his personal qualities, which are hotly debated, Horus must come in the top 5 for his necessity in everything in the 31st Millenium, and he was a fairly powerful Primarch to boot.

 Deadshot wrote:
Angron had no friends to start a revolt.

Not entirely true, He was at least on good terms with Perturabo as "After Desh'ea" seems to imply.

 King Pariah wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Angron had no friends to start a revolt.

Not entirely true, He was at least on good terms with Perturabo as "After Desh'ea" seems to imply.

Ok, 1 friend who had few friends himself and both were not very popular. point still stands that neither of them could lead their own heresy.

Sorry for the necromancy here, but I've been away with life problems and such and this topic was of great interest to me, especially because it seemed to remain so tame between Chaos and Loyalist fanboys. XD Good show guys.

To Disciple of Fate: The thing about Horus' fall to Chaos though was that it had been pre-ordained by Chaos long before the Primarchs reached maturity. That's why the Chaos Gods tossed them across time and space in the first place. It was to test the mettle of each, and a full half fell before the end of the Heresy. Interestingly enough though, when you dig a bit deeper into the books themselves, the real difference between Horus and the others is quiet literally a matter of Choice that he and only he could make, despite all of the manipulation of events around him and the other Primarchs. It comes when he is felled and taken to the Serpent Lodge for revival, when he is in his fugue and meets with both Magnus and Erebus in some spirit-state. At one point, he literally is forced to look over both Magnus and Erebus (while Magnus' sorcerers are dying in droves trying to make this happen, by the way, a sacrifice that Horus completely ignores) and choose. In his pride however, and perhaps as the chink in the armor gets wrenched open, he leans on his Pride, which Erebus already has in his hands, and decides that he knows better to govern the universe than both Emperor and Dark Forces he has chosen to commune with. Effectively, he gives up his role as leader and becomes dictator, now no longer burdened with the trouble of sacrifice.

A better take on how this corruption manifests can be extrapolated from the Psykers themselves. Should any of them "enjoy" that forbidden thrill of wrenching life and reality apart rather than recoil in horror at their own power, that they will then descend on the road of Chaos. Effectively, this is the lure that tantalized Horus. Love the corrupt power, embrace and be better, but he was already the best, and in that dream state, Magnus tells him outright that it is better for him to die there, than to return to life, a massive slight to the Son of the Emperor, Beloved by All, Warmaster.

You see this trend when the Interex recoil at the realization that the leader they are meeting with is "WAR"master.


Void Dragon: I can agree with most of what you posted, however I'd make this amendment: Magnus banished Ahriman so that Ahriman could pursue his own means of ending Chaos and saving the Thousand Sons, including ending Magnus' tortured existence. But this goes into a way more complex theory of Magnus sacrificing himself in a game of existence long chess, where he knows he has already lost because he didn't know the game when he started playing, but with that head start he was able to drive Ahriman towards goals that could be at least at the moment, hidden from Tzeentch. Long enough at least for Magnus to make an move that would doom the Chaos gods in the future, no matter how long it took. Because what you see in Ahriman:Exile is this back and forth taunting game where Tzeentch wants Ahriman for his own, but Ahriman refuses to be used, despite understanding how naive or arrogant it would sound to play against the Great Conspirator in such a way. This all gets into the nature of psykers, the warp, the manifestion of their powers and exactly how one goes about even approaching the Great Game of the Chaos Gods without being swallowed up by it, as already half of the Space Marine Legions have.

This level of psychological warfare that is being played out actually reminds me a lot of Batman v. Joker actually. Where Joker wants to make Batman in his image, and Batman rebels, despite the futility of such an action. (been watching a lot of This v That on YouTube, and Batman has made himself a focal point in our home somehow. lol Ironic I guess.).


Asherian Command: Interestingly enough about Lorgar, since he is the first to fall, and somehow the mastermind of the fall of the rest of the Legions Astartes, it stands to reason that at least out side of martial prowess, he is an exceptional commander. After all, he lured the Warmaster to his cause. Even got him killed in the name of Chaos besting the Emperor and Friends. XD So Lorgar should probably rate somewhere, even though I can't help but think of him as some apex caveman type with a Prometheus complex. lol


Can't specify really, so I'm gonna lump the rest of this together since it all kinda rolled into the same point near the end of page 3. lol

Define: "Corruption" and what it means to be "corrupt?" Because if we consider the start of corruption has having already "corrupted" said target, then yeah. The Emperors Children and Fulgrim all fell to Chaos the day they fought with the Laer. Simply put, whether it's a little or a lot, whether it grows or is stayed, is irrelevant. Corruption is Corruption, so day one. Yep. The Emperors Children ate it hard. Worse than the Luna Wolves anyway. Towards the end of the Luna Wolves, you still had a great many loyalists in the ranks, while in the Emperors children, not so much. In fact, Temeter is the only name out of the Emperor's Children (aside from Huron Fal) who actively goes against his corruption (even though the Istvvaan Massacres involved a purging of loyalists from all factions), but in terms of importance, those are the only two names in the Emperor's Children that actively rebel'd against their own Legion, Huron Fal a little less so. Where as in the Luna Wolves there was still Torgaddon, Loken and even Little Horus right up to the point where he takes Torgaddons head off, and then he finally falls to his sorrow of events. Edit: They're not "technically" Luna Wolves, but they were a part of the fleet: There was also Iacton Qruze, Kyril Sindermann and Mersadie Oliton. Way more people in their right minds in the Luna Wolves than there were in the Emperors Children, but then we are also talking about a difference of "corruption" as well. In the case of the Luna Wolves, their corruption came in the form of Great Betrayal, where as the Emperor's Children were corrupted by Excess. You see it in the first of the Emperors Children who come back from the Laer, including Fulgrim himself. They are corrupted at that single moment, because once they go home, they can no longer experience life like a normal person anymore. They immediately start devolving into searches for extreme stimulation to make up for the loss of it after the fighting with the Laer, and so the spiral goes into oblivion until Fulgrim himself, overcome by grief and begging death, is finally devoured by the Sword of the Laer. Side note: If I'm not mistaken, even though Fulgrim had the Anathame, I don't believe he actually used it all that much, instead favoring the Slaaneshi blade taken from the Laer. I could have misread that, but I'm pretty sure that even though he gets the Anathame, he refuses to use it. Some swordsman, huh? lol

But back to Fulgrim. The reason he has all of those insecurities in the first place is because when his legion was first born, something stupid happen that nearly killed them all, and forced the Emperor's Children to fight along side the Luna Wolves until they were back to operational strength. This seeded a MASSIVE inferiority complex among the Emperors Children, while also ensuring the fraternity had between Fulgrim and Horus that made Fulgrim so integral to the Heresy in the first place. And that seems strange, but consider how much is written about Fulgrim? It wasn't because he was particularly powerful or anything like that, but because he was the focus of Slaanesh, one of the four chaos gods that takes the reigns over the Traitor Legions. He was important, without being necessarily powerful, and it's because of things like the Anathame he wields, and murdering Ferrus (which infuriates Horus and drives his ego even further, although to be fair Horus was more pissed off at the demon inside of Fulgrim).

And now to wrap this wall of text up: How did we get to "Why the Heresy wouldn't work with anyone else?" instead of "Top 5?" XD Relevant, but it seemed like a little unusual twist. lol

Hope I hit it all and someone cares. XD Even more so, I hope this was someone revealing.

 kinratha wrote:

Either way, he lost his cool and was poked by a sword. And If i remember from the book, All the Plague zombies were from the imperial guard stationed there, so probably no plague bearer
I also doubt that Temba was important to Nurgle, just a pawn and bait for the trap
XXXX

To be fair things only happened that way because Graham McNeill did a terrible job with that book. He took the awesome Horus from book one and made him an unlikable arrogant douche, but you're wrong about him getting bested by any old plague zombie. Youre looking at it how you want to. The way it is written basically any Primarch would have lost. They lead you to believe that on purpose

The interex point was dumb. Horus was trying to do the right thing. It actually shows his inner strength by being the bigger man

Strongest Primarchs are Magnus, Lorgar, Horus, Angron not sure who the fifth would be it would be super tight. Probably The Angel. Without a doubt the first four though. Lorgar is only boss dog around the time of Aurelian. Before that he is still in puberty basically and hadn't hit manhood.


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Vulgar wrote:
We don't really have a great idea, how much a primarch could "gauge" each other.

I don't find Corax as a valid source, as he seems pretty much wrong, all the time. Maybe the whole whiner thing puts me off.

On topic, Fulgrim has a two primarch body count. Carries the blade that wounded Horus, which apparently you just tell it who dies, and it happens.

I've read nearly all the HH books (Vulkan lives I couldn't make it past a hundred pages and I put down unremembered for other reasons), and I do not recall any situation in which Fulgrim doesn't make it through virtually unharmed.

So Fulgrim's whipping count : One Avatar of Khaine, one titan, Ferrus (twice), Roboute. As far as "badass foes", he's missing what, a daemon prince?

Off topic, though I enjoy these posts/debates, I would really love to see definitions. "Top 5 = duelist ability" or "Top 5 = all around effectiveness as a commander".

Lorgar beats the piss out of Fulgrim and Fulgrim basically begs Horus to stop him. So I'd sayLorgar is tougher.

Vulgar wrote:
We don't really have a great idea, how much a primarch could "gauge" each other.

I don't find Corax as a valid source, as he seems pretty much wrong, all the time. Maybe the whole whiner thing puts me off.

On topic, Fulgrim has a two primarch body count. Carries the blade that wounded Horus, which apparently you just tell it who dies, and it happens.

I've read nearly all the HH books (Vulkan lives I couldn't make it past a hundred pages and I put down unremembered for other reasons), and I do not recall any situation in which Fulgrim doesn't make it through virtually unharmed.

So Fulgrim's whipping count : One Avatar of Khaine, one titan, Ferrus (twice), Roboute. As far as "badass foes", he's missing what, a daemon prince?

Off topic, though I enjoy these posts/debates, I would really love to see definitions. "Top 5 = duelist ability" or "Top 5 = all around effectiveness as a commander".

Read Aurellian, Lorgar beats the crap out of Fulgrim and would have killed him if he wasn't called off by Horus. Also Fulgrim only beat the Avatar because of the Daemon in the Sword. The Avatar was giving him a beating until Fulgrim realised it was trying to destroy the sword rather than him and exploited this to distract the Avatar. As for leadership, Fulgrim was one of the worst commanders of the Great Crusade. Sure he started out great, with a well disciplined structured force, but before the Heresy he was already losing a grip on them, encouraging self aggrandisment by promoting useless braggarts like Eidolon and Sycophants like Marius, while allowing great but humble warriors like Saul Taritz to languish in the rank and file because they don't have the right kind of flair. Then even worse than that, at the onset of the Heresy, he allowed Fabius to poison his entire legion and turn them into a debased disusting parody of the Astartes. Even if Fulgrim had not turned, his Legion would have because they were already turning into monsters before Horus brought them to his cause. As a diplomat he is even worse, taking offense at anyone who doesn't treat him like the greatest man alive, only surrounding himself with yes men so he'd never get valid advice, and his arrogance was off putting to many of his brother Legions.

As the question is would he be a top Primarch, not "top warrior" I'd say no, not at all. Horus Guilliman, The Lion and Sanguinius were the best because they had the best mixture of the qualities required to be a Primarch. Each of them had a failing but were great at the other things. Horus's pride didn't help his diplomacy, in fact it was largely thanks to Dorn, Lorgar and Sanguinius that most of the other Primarchs came around to the idea of him as the Warmaster. Sanguinius lacked the purity of purpose of the others, afraid of possible flaws in his DNA which held him back from being the confident leader the Crusade needed. The Lion was too sectretive and didn't bond easily with others, he wasn't liked enough to be put in charge. Honestly I have no idea why Guilliman wasn't put in charge. He was the only Primarch who had a vision for the future, not just the war. He trained a Legion to do more than just fight, but to lead and inspire, he didn't seek aggrandisement like Horus and Fulgrim, give in to his emotions like Angron, Ferrus or Perturabo. He was open and honest unlike, the Khan, The Lion, Alpharius and Corax. He perfectly accepted his place as a leader and didn't yearn for a simple life like Vulcan, he knew when to question the purpose of laws not just enforce them like Russ. He didn't hold grudges and brood like Lorgar and Mortarion, didn't doubt himself like Sanguinius or Dorn, wasn't broken like Curze and he lacked the Hubris and was far more human than Magnus. He already built the greatest sub empire in the Imperium, he was not worried about the fate of his Legion post Great Crusade because he'd trained them in other regards, so they didn't need war to function. Plus his doctrines have largely allowed the Imperium to continue to exist without another rebellion on the scale of the Heresy for 10,000 years.

I hated the Ultramarines at the beginning of the series, I have never been a fan of the poster boys, but damn if it isn't impossible to respect the man, nothing he has done is for himself, he did a better job of leading than the Emperor if you ask me.

yeah the question of "so why isn't Gulliman warmaster?" is a damn good one to ask.

I think it's a host of things, firstly Horus is the favored one, I'm not even saying it's just the emperor here, but it seems everyone of the Primarchs loved Horus, he was the "big brother they looked up to" I guess. it'd be hard for Gulliman however to say, issue orders to Lorgar. Horus was, as far as I can tell, unique among the Primarchs for his lack of ENEMIES. so in that one could argue Horus is something of a possiable "comprimise canidate"

Another thing, and "Know no fear" touches on this, Gulliman may not have WANTED it, perfering to sort of focus on his own thing and building up his own pocket empire. The Emperor may have figured he'd not really want the job anyway

Lots of primarchs disliked or didn't get along with Gulliman.

Guilliman wasn't warmaster because he had his hands full with all of Ultramar while every other Primarch just had one crappy world. Guilliman already had an incredibly large work load compared to every other Primarch. More than a lot of them put together probably,

Also Lorgar commands Horus to do something in Aurelian with psychic force and Horus isn't strong enough to resist. Sounds to me like Lorgar takes the strongest title at this point and holds it for good

Naw because Magnus could still manhandle Lorgar

 StarTrotter wrote:
Naw because Magnus could still manhandle Lorgar

Didn't seem that way in Aurelian... seemed like Magnus would think twice about even trying.

First off, Magnus was planned to sit on the golden throne due to his psyker abilities. Magnus isn't a joke when he claims to be mighty. He's the primarch of the legion of psykers and is the daemon prince of Tzeentch for a reason. This is a guy that killed a gargant by creating a psyflame hurricane, he's blown up an ancient eldar titan. Drained, he promptly went into the warp to destroy the plague that was on that very planet. Lucius praises his power and even Lorgar admits that Magnus is still mightier.

Simply put, discounting chaos amped Horus, Magnus is the mightiest of the primarchs. He also is rather significant for being the head for the foundation of librarians and the sorts. That being said, he isn't the most important in the grand scheme of things. Horus is, obviously, more important. Lorgar is as well for him, and his legion, being really where the source of the heresy spreads, plus Lorgar eventually becomes the second mightiest primarch, yet again discounting chaosified Horus. Gulliman is also more significant than Magnus for the drastic changes to the Imperium he set about to after the Emperor was placed on the throne.

So, in terms of duelling, it'd probably go (all in m personal opinion)
Magnus>Lorgar>Angron?>The Angel>Leman Russ (the last 3 are more guesses). Probably Fulgrim after.
In terms of the most influential,
Lorgar>Horus>Gulliman>The Angel?>Magnus
In terms of commanding....
Horus, Gulliman, the Lion, Alphirus, and then a split between the two sieges. Well, to a lesser extent the Angel can be tossed in. All were good commanders in their own right.

Magnus is the Daemon Prince of Tzeentch but Lorgar is the chosen of all four ruinous powers. You really need to check out Aurelian. Really not one Primarch seems to be more powerful then him. Lorgar is also an incredibly powerful psychic he just learned mastery of his powers much much later,
Magnus and the librarian issue is irrelevant considering his Legion is the smallest one in existence and most of them are mutated or just dust inside power armor. Lorgar's legion is one of the mightiest chaos legion still maintaining independence and mid heresy and post heresy larger than all other Chaos legions. His was second only to the Ultramarines in size. Their legion strength has nothing to do with their individual power though.

That's why I placed Lorgar as more influential. Also Magnus' legion is now either dust inside of power armor undying or pure individuals with no mutations at all. I'm not disagreeing with you that Lorgar's legion is giant, I'm also not denying that in the current time Lorgar's legion is far more influential.

But in terms of magical might. Lorgar has nothing on Magnus. As mentioned, even as Lorgar is insulting Magnus, he admits he isn't as strong. We are talking about a guy that before becoming a daemon was tearing apart emperor class titans, blasting gargants apart, having psychic meetings to convince Horus of this and that, sent a psychic message that tore through the Emperor's work, and was planned to sit upon the golden throne and guide Imperium's vessels through the webways not to mention warp. It is what it is, Magnus is mightier than Lorgar. That doesn't mean that Lorgar is weak. Heck no, as I placed him, he's the second strongest primarch and that's by a long shot. But thing is, being the mightiest isn't the only thing that matters. Also, assuming that all four gods giving you power automatically making you mightier isn't how it works. The chaos gods are fickle and for all we know all likely give the primarchs of all the gods less power as they aren't only theirs.

Also, are we really going to start to just toss them aside because they were the smallest legion (about 10,000 marines or something) in a world where apparently 1,000 space marines is a good chapter size and there are only around 1,000,000 marines in the Imperium of Mankind?

In terms of influence, Lorgar wins out having not only been the primary root of the heresy but also being somewhat of a heart of chaos as well as having one of the largest legions with some of the greatest order and structure still in them despite the fall to chaos.

 StarTrotter wrote:
That's why I placed Lorgar as more influential. Also Magnus' legion is now either dust inside of power armor undying or pure individuals with no mutations at all. I'm not disagreeing with you that Lorgar's legion is giant, I'm also not denying that in the current time Lorgar's legion is far more influential.

But in terms of magical might. Lorgar has nothing on Magnus. As mentioned, even as Lorgar is insulting Magnus, he admits he isn't as strong. We are talking about a guy that before becoming a daemon was tearing apart emperor class titans, blasting gargants apart, having psychic meetings to convince Horus of this and that, sent a psychic message that tore through the Emperor's work, and was planned to sit upon the golden throne and guide Imperium's vessels through the webways not to mention warp. It is what it is, Magnus is mightier than Lorgar. That doesn't mean that Lorgar is weak. Heck no, as I placed him, he's the second strongest primarch and that's by a long shot. But thing is, being the mightiest isn't the only thing that matters. Also, assuming that all four gods giving you power automatically making you mightier isn't how it works. The chaos gods are fickle and for all we know all likely give the primarchs of all the gods less power as they aren't only theirs.

Also, are we really going to start to just toss them aside because they were the smallest legion (about 10,000 marines or something) in a world where apparently 1,000 space marines is a good chapter size and there are only around 1,000,000 marines in the Imperium of Mankind?

In terms of influence, Lorgar wins out having not only been the primary root of the heresy but also being somewhat of a heart of chaos as well as having one of the largest legions with some of the greatest order and structure still in them despite the fall to chaos.

Not to mention the Word Bearers were what gummed up the Ultramarines and kept them bogged down in the far east, away from Terra. I love the Emperor's Children, but Fulgrim failed to bring Manus with him and didn't do anything remarkable during the Battle of Terra.

 StarTrotter wrote:
That's why I placed Lorgar as more influential. Also Magnus' legion is now either dust inside of power armor undying or pure individuals with no mutations at all. I'm not disagreeing with you that Lorgar's legion is giant, I'm also not denying that in the current time Lorgar's legion is far more influential.

But in terms of magical might. Lorgar has nothing on Magnus. As mentioned, even as Lorgar is insulting Magnus, he admits he isn't as strong. We are talking about a guy that before becoming a daemon was tearing apart emperor class titans, blasting gargants apart, having psychic meetings to convince Horus of this and that, sent a psychic message that tore through the Emperor's work, and was planned to sit upon the golden throne and guide Imperium's vessels through the webways not to mention warp. It is what it is, Magnus is mightier than Lorgar. That doesn't mean that Lorgar is weak. Heck no, as I placed him, he's the second strongest primarch and that's by a long shot. But thing is, being the mightiest isn't the only thing that matters. Also, assuming that all four gods giving you power automatically making you mightier isn't how it works. The chaos gods are fickle and for all we know all likely give the primarchs of all the gods less power as they aren't only theirs.

Also, are we really going to start to just toss them aside because they were the smallest legion (about 10,000 marines or something) in a world where apparently 1,000 space marines is a good chapter size and there are only around 1,000,000 marines in the Imperium of Mankind?

In terms of influence, Lorgar wins out having not only been the primary root of the heresy but also being somewhat of a heart of chaos as well as having one of the largest legions with some of the greatest order and structure still in them despite the fall to chaos.

Magnus had his back broken by Russ. I honestly don't think Magnus is in the top five if its'c comparing them in duels against each other. However against all non-primarchs I think Magnus may be the strongest. I know that may not make sense to you but it's how I read the fluff. I think Lorgar at this point in the fluff would win most fights, but If both of them were pitted against Astartes or Eldar or any faction filled with beings of lesser strength and less plot armor than a Primarch I think that is where Magnus's power shows through in the fluff

1k Sons have way less than 10k presently.

Magnus has already beaten Lorgar's ass in a psychic duel from across the galaxy (In the very story you mentioned), and in Betrayer he outright admits that Magnus is far more powerful than he is ("You are just as powerful as father", in fact).

Lorgar also confirms that Magnus fought Russ half-heartedly, and if he either fully committed himself to being a martyr or to fighting back the Space Wolves, he and his legion would not be in their current predicament.

jakejackjake wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
That's why I placed Lorgar as more influential. Also Magnus' legion is now either dust inside of power armor undying or pure individuals with no mutations at all. I'm not disagreeing with you that Lorgar's legion is giant, I'm also not denying that in the current time Lorgar's legion is far more influential.

But in terms of magical might. Lorgar has nothing on Magnus. As mentioned, even as Lorgar is insulting Magnus, he admits he isn't as strong. We are talking about a guy that before becoming a daemon was tearing apart emperor class titans, blasting gargants apart, having psychic meetings to convince Horus of this and that, sent a psychic message that tore through the Emperor's work, and was planned to sit upon the golden throne and guide Imperium's vessels through the webways not to mention warp. It is what it is, Magnus is mightier than Lorgar. That doesn't mean that Lorgar is weak. Heck no, as I placed him, he's the second strongest primarch and that's by a long shot. But thing is, being the mightiest isn't the only thing that matters. Also, assuming that all four gods giving you power automatically making you mightier isn't how it works. The chaos gods are fickle and for all we know all likely give the primarchs of all the gods less power as they aren't only theirs.

Also, are we really going to start to just toss them aside because they were the smallest legion (about 10,000 marines or something) in a world where apparently 1,000 space marines is a good chapter size and there are only around 1,000,000 marines in the Imperium of Mankind?

In terms of influence, Lorgar wins out having not only been the primary root of the heresy but also being somewhat of a heart of chaos as well as having one of the largest legions with some of the greatest order and structure still in them despite the fall to chaos.

Magnus had his back broken by Russ. I honestly don't think Magnus is in the top five if its'c comparing them in duels against each other. However against all non-primarchs I think Magnus may be the strongest. I know that may not make sense to you but it's how I read the fluff. I think Lorgar at this point in the fluff would win most fights, but If both of them were pitted against Astartes or Eldar or any faction filled with beings of lesser strength and less plot armor than a Primarch I think that is where Magnus's power shows through in the fluff

1k Sons have way less than 10k presently.

To address the shorter bit first, yes, you are correct. Now, there are only 1k sons. Whilst 1k sons have done some significant things sense then, it is more of Ahriman and perhaps one other sorcerer that have really struck out and made any significant differences. Bar that, they are more of marauders mysterious and rare to be seen. I was adressing them as when they were a true legion.

Anyways, onto the later. First of all, Russ is implied to have psyker abilities himself. That is, anti-psyker psyker abilities . Okay then, the Fall of Prospero. Starting off, he cast a psychic veil over his planet so his legion would have no clue of the approaching invasion. Then, after he finally convinced he had done nothing wrong, he stomped out breaking the Space Wolves' assault with his great psychic power before meeting in combat to duel Leman Russ. From there, they dueled Magnus shattering Russ' breastplate with a mighty punch puncturing one of his hearts in response his own arm being snapped back shattered. Magnus summoned a blade of pure thought driving it deep through Russ' chest and bursting out of his back. The two enormous lupine monsters that accompanied Russ leapt upon Magnus biting into his legs. He slammed them down breaking their skulls. A flare of lback light struck russ making him ccry out in agony. And then, something happened. An odd twist of fate, perhaps a weaving of a plot by a nefarious lord that is everwatching. At that moment, Russ lashed out blindly with his blade that struck a blow against Magnus' one good eye. This sent Magnus reeling holding it with the hand that had formerly been broken (it was crackling with regenerative magic). Leman Russ took this time gripping him around and breaking his back. Finally, Magnus whispered eldricht words of power as he dissapeared into the air and Ahriman gained the power to teleport away with what remained of the Thousand Sons.

Also, Magnus has destroyed freakin' gargants and titans on several occasions and such feats are often compared to him when others commit something even close to such an act. As I mentioned though, Magnus might be the mightiest primarch, but he certainly isn't the greatest commander or near the most influential of them all.

EDIT: And what Void_Dragon said

 StarTrotter wrote:
First off, Magnus was planned to sit on the golden throne due to his psyker abilities. Magnus isn't a joke when he claims to be mighty. He's the primarch of the legion of psykers and is the daemon prince of Tzeentch for a reason. This is a guy that killed a gargant by creating a psyflame hurricane, he's blown up an ancient eldar titan. Drained, he promptly went into the warp to destroy the plague that was on that very planet. Lucius praises his power and even Lorgar admits that Magnus is still mightier.

Simply put, discounting chaos amped Horus, Magnus is the mightiest of the primarchs. He also is rather significant for being the head for the foundation of librarians and the sorts. That being said, he isn't the most important in the grand scheme of things. Horus is, obviously, more important. Lorgar is as well for him, and his legion, being really where the source of the heresy spreads, plus Lorgar eventually becomes the second mightiest primarch, yet again discounting chaosified Horus. Gulliman is also more significant than Magnus for the drastic changes to the Imperium he set about to after the Emperor was placed on the throne.

So, in terms of duelling, it'd probably go (all in m personal opinion)
Magnus>Lorgar>Angron?>The Angel>Leman Russ (the last 3 are more guesses). Probably Fulgrim after.
In terms of the most influential,
Lorgar>Horus>Gulliman>The Angel?>Magnus
In terms of commanding....
Horus, Gulliman, the Lion, Alphirus, and then a split between the two sieges. Well, to a lesser extent the Angel can be tossed in. All were good commanders in their own right.

Gulliman admits in unremembered empire the Lion is the better general of the two of them. that MAY just be modesty at play mind you, but it's worth noting

Well to be frank I also considered other capabilities in terms of commanding. The capability to inspire, social relations, controlling a domain, etc. I already had 3 lists

Remove Chaos traitorsssssssssssssssssssssssss.

Regarding the Lion vs. Guilliman, I recall an old military adage.

"Amateurs study tactics. Experts study strategy. Masters study logistics."

The Lion is probably Guilliman's better in the former and maybe even in strategy, but Guilliman is typically cited as the undisputed master of logistics among his brothers.

The thing about Guilliman is that he's simply too perfect. In school, the teacher's pet isn't favoured too highly. The jocks generally are but not by the teacher's pet. The nerds arn't highly thought of except by nerds. The emos stick to themselves.

Guilliman was sort of like the Nerd. Knew everything and did everything and was good at it. Gets perfect scores and goes on to be a multimillionaire. Everyone still hates him.

Then there is the emo who ends up smoking dope on the street, or in a metal/screamo band.

Then there is the teacher's pet who becomes the slimy little worm that you are praying is the first to die tin a horror film.


Horus was more the Model Student. Straight A grades (did extremely well militarily), was a great athlete (warrior) and the teacher (Emperor) loves him, as does everyone else, even the emos like Curze and Corax. He was just perfect for the role.

Kind of reminds me of a quote from Stan Lee about who would win in a fight X or Y. He simply stated 'neither' as stopping the fight or ending it in a draw leaves people talking. There were strengths for each Primarch and each had a style that would win in a scenario. However, the scenarios can be changed and new fluff can be made at a drop a hat that can make everything moot.

What's to stop Mat W from putting out a book where The Sigilite defeated Russ in an arm wrestling competition? Or that the Emperor is really Alpharious and therefore Alpharious is the strongest Primarch.

 Imperial_Arson wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Imperial_Arson wrote:
Along with Sanguinius, Horus, Angron, and Magnus.

I would actually think Fulgrim would be there equally if not more with Horus and Angron, since Fulgrim is on the road to perfection.. He seems like he would be the master of martial arts(not just kung fu, but sword technique, etc)..

Horus shouldn't be in the top five. He was only powerful or impressive after the buff by the Chaos Gods, but even then Vulkan or Magnus would probably smack him down, and hard.

It would sound less cooler but they should have made the Horus Heresy the Fulgrim Heresy..

Pretty sure Fulgrim actually did more against Primarchs then Horus. The killing of Sanguinius doesn't count since he pretty much was tired when it happened.

just seems like it would make more sense.

Um if you go that way with it it probably would of been the Erebus Heresy. Being as Erebus was the one who stole the Anathame and then give it to Temba, who then Wounded Horus. Thus allowing Erebus to talk the Mournival into taking Horus to the Searpent lodge to heal his wounds, and allowing Erebus to to enter Horus mind posing as sejanus, and basicaly making horus think that the emprorer will just hang him out to dry eventually. thus making horus burn the istvaan system to the ground and practically every other system on his way back Terra. Fulgrim didnt do much more than throw a few questionable partys to be fair.

The thing about Guilliman is that he's simply too perfect. In school, the teacher's pet isn't favoured too highly. The jocks generally are but not by the teacher's pet. The nerds arn't highly thought of except by nerds. The emos stick to themselves.

Guilliman was sort of like the Nerd. Knew everything and did everything and was good at it. Gets perfect scores and goes on to be a multimillionaire. Everyone still hates him.

Then there is the emo who ends up smoking dope on the street, or in a metal/screamo band.

Then there is the teacher's pet who becomes the slimy little worm that you are praying is the first to die tin a horror film.


Horus was more the Model Student. Straight A grades (did extremely well militarily), was a great athlete (warrior) and the teacher (Emperor) loves him, as does everyone else, even the emos like Curze and Corax. He was just perfect for the role.

I see a problem with this, your saying that the nerds lose but the last guys standing are the nerds. Horus is the second primarch to die, and it seems the teachers pets take over, Lorgar is the real power behind the throne of the Heresy and Guilliman takes over the Imperium.

Oh and on the subject of nerds. I agree that nerds do not deserve the praise they get, but nether do the jocks, their just different sides of the same coin, people who define themselves by their clubs and activities they engage in, really the world belongs to the punks, outcast, leather jackets, guys smoking by the coke machines. Why, cause we had the guts to stand on our own. Most nerds I knew are mooching of their parents and most jocks I knew have minimum wage jobs, the people i'm describing are writing novels and opening their own businesses.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

Oh and on the subject of nerds. I agree that nerds do not deserve the praise they get, but nether do the jocks, their just different sides of the same coin, people who define themselves by their clubs and activities they engage in, really the world belongs to the punks, outcast, leather jackets, guys smoking by the coke machines. Why, cause we had the guts to stand on our own. Most nerds I knew are mooching of their parents and most jocks I knew have minimum wage jobs, the people i'm describing are writing novels and opening their own businesses.

You really see no irony with this statement?

You really see no irony with this statement?

None at all.

America sounds like an interesting place.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
America sounds like an interesting place.

Apparently not the parts I am living in, I must be doing something horribly wrong >.>

Before this thread degenerates on a heated debate on the social value of the highschool rebel, here are some thoughts.

The was I see it Fulgrim's idea of "perfection" was all about technique often at the expense of results, perhaps too focused on the means but not really caring about the ends. Executing a Thunderhawk battlefield insert by the book despite the meager strategic gain and oblivious to losses. That's the Fulgrim thing.

Impracticality seems to run high on the Emperor's Children, really. Other legions perfect their drills, study ancient tactics, improve their gear or even dabble in forbidden knowledge. The EC send their guys over to Fabius Bile to turn them into weaponised versions of Yma Sumac.

Before this thread degenerates on a heated debate on the social value of the highschool rebel, here are some thoughts.

meager strategic gain and oblivious to losses. That's the Fulgrim thing.

Given that his legion was attached to the Luna Wolves can we really say that they were any good? I mean as soon as they go off on their own they start turning themselves into freaks that can't even reuse their gene seed and then betray the Emperor then betray the other traitors.

Khan, Lion, Corax, Curze would all give Fulgrim a run for his money

Strongest in a fight: Magnus, this is not a contest. He killed a Mega-Gargant with one blow and held off the Entire Space Wolf LEGION, The Silent Sisters who dampened his powers, and the Custodes while beating the crap out of Leman Russ and only lost because of Tzeentch's intervention. (It's not a coincidence that the sword landed on the only place he could be hurt)
Influence wise: Horus. He had the one thing all the other Primarchs lacked, the silver tongue. He convinced half of his Government's military to side with him against what many people considered a god.
Strongest Commander: Horus, again. He and his Legion were as capable as the all of specialist legions in their field, knew how to adapt to negative changes in the field, and had the abillity to read the battle and sieze the initative that Guilliman and the Lion didn't.

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
Strongest in a fight: Magnus, this is not a contest. He killed a Mega-Gargant with one blow and held off the Entire Space Wolf LEGION, The Silent Sisters who dampened his powers, and the Custodes while beating the crap out of Leman Russ and only lost because of Tzeentch's intervention. (It's not a coincidence that the sword landed on the only place he could be hurt)
Influence wise: Horus. He had the one thing all the other Primarchs lacked, the silver tongue. He convinced half of his Government's military to side with him against what many people considered a god.
Strongest Commander: Horus, again. He and his Legion were as capable as the all of specialist legions in their field, knew how to adapt to negative changes in the field, and had the abillity to read the battle and sieze the initative that Guilliman and the Lion didn't.

Wow... so many assumptions in your post.

This is all pretty much speculation, depending on which authors are writing the stories. In some they are all powerful Demi-gods, in others they are powerful but no invulnerable.

Undeniably though, the only primarchs who killed another primarchs are:

Fulgrim killing Ferrus and dealing a killing stroke to Rowboat.

Horus killing Sanguinius (while Horus was hopped up on the Chaos juice).

Guilliman killing Alpharius...or Omegrom...or some other dude, who knows with the Alpha Legion?

On his credentials here alone, Fulgrim has to be listed in the top 5.

Fulgrim was using Daemon powers when he did both of those things though.

Also, who hasn't beaten up Guilliman?

Kelbor Hal.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Fulgrim was using Daemon powers when he did both of those things though.

Also, who hasn't beaten up Guilliman?

Avatars of Khaine. But they're also the punching bags of W40K.

I know that it wasn't a fair shot that brought Leman Russ down, but the fact that the Lion could even level Leman Russ with his bare fist should speak of his ability as a combatant.

Not saying he is above anybody else, but has anybody else knocked out a Primarch with a bare fist?

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
I know that it wasn't a fair shot that brought Leman Russ down, but the fact that the Lion could even level Leman Russ with his bare fist should speak of his ability as a combatant.

Not saying he is above anybody else, but has anybody else knocked out a Primarch with a bare fist?

No different than one human knocking out another with a punch.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
I know that it wasn't a fair shot that brought Leman Russ down, but the fact that the Lion could even level Leman Russ with his bare fist should speak of his ability as a combatant.

Not saying he is above anybody else, but has anybody else knocked out a Primarch with a bare fist?

Magnus punched Leman Russ in the chest and broke through his armour and punctured one of his hearts.