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Lots of primarchs disliked or didn't get along with Gulliman.

Guilliman wasn't warmaster because he had his hands full with all of Ultramar while every other Primarch just had one crappy world. Guilliman already had an incredibly large work load compared to every other Primarch. More than a lot of them put together probably,

Also Lorgar commands Horus to do something in Aurelian with psychic force and Horus isn't strong enough to resist. Sounds to me like Lorgar takes the strongest title at this point and holds it for good

Naw because Magnus could still manhandle Lorgar

 StarTrotter wrote:
Naw because Magnus could still manhandle Lorgar

Didn't seem that way in Aurelian... seemed like Magnus would think twice about even trying.

First off, Magnus was planned to sit on the golden throne due to his psyker abilities. Magnus isn't a joke when he claims to be mighty. He's the primarch of the legion of psykers and is the daemon prince of Tzeentch for a reason. This is a guy that killed a gargant by creating a psyflame hurricane, he's blown up an ancient eldar titan. Drained, he promptly went into the warp to destroy the plague that was on that very planet. Lucius praises his power and even Lorgar admits that Magnus is still mightier.

Simply put, discounting chaos amped Horus, Magnus is the mightiest of the primarchs. He also is rather significant for being the head for the foundation of librarians and the sorts. That being said, he isn't the most important in the grand scheme of things. Horus is, obviously, more important. Lorgar is as well for him, and his legion, being really where the source of the heresy spreads, plus Lorgar eventually becomes the second mightiest primarch, yet again discounting chaosified Horus. Gulliman is also more significant than Magnus for the drastic changes to the Imperium he set about to after the Emperor was placed on the throne.

So, in terms of duelling, it'd probably go (all in m personal opinion)
Magnus>Lorgar>Angron?>The Angel>Leman Russ (the last 3 are more guesses). Probably Fulgrim after.
In terms of the most influential,
Lorgar>Horus>Gulliman>The Angel?>Magnus
In terms of commanding....
Horus, Gulliman, the Lion, Alphirus, and then a split between the two sieges. Well, to a lesser extent the Angel can be tossed in. All were good commanders in their own right.

Magnus is the Daemon Prince of Tzeentch but Lorgar is the chosen of all four ruinous powers. You really need to check out Aurelian. Really not one Primarch seems to be more powerful then him. Lorgar is also an incredibly powerful psychic he just learned mastery of his powers much much later,
Magnus and the librarian issue is irrelevant considering his Legion is the smallest one in existence and most of them are mutated or just dust inside power armor. Lorgar's legion is one of the mightiest chaos legion still maintaining independence and mid heresy and post heresy larger than all other Chaos legions. His was second only to the Ultramarines in size. Their legion strength has nothing to do with their individual power though.

That's why I placed Lorgar as more influential. Also Magnus' legion is now either dust inside of power armor undying or pure individuals with no mutations at all. I'm not disagreeing with you that Lorgar's legion is giant, I'm also not denying that in the current time Lorgar's legion is far more influential.

But in terms of magical might. Lorgar has nothing on Magnus. As mentioned, even as Lorgar is insulting Magnus, he admits he isn't as strong. We are talking about a guy that before becoming a daemon was tearing apart emperor class titans, blasting gargants apart, having psychic meetings to convince Horus of this and that, sent a psychic message that tore through the Emperor's work, and was planned to sit upon the golden throne and guide Imperium's vessels through the webways not to mention warp. It is what it is, Magnus is mightier than Lorgar. That doesn't mean that Lorgar is weak. Heck no, as I placed him, he's the second strongest primarch and that's by a long shot. But thing is, being the mightiest isn't the only thing that matters. Also, assuming that all four gods giving you power automatically making you mightier isn't how it works. The chaos gods are fickle and for all we know all likely give the primarchs of all the gods less power as they aren't only theirs.

Also, are we really going to start to just toss them aside because they were the smallest legion (about 10,000 marines or something) in a world where apparently 1,000 space marines is a good chapter size and there are only around 1,000,000 marines in the Imperium of Mankind?

In terms of influence, Lorgar wins out having not only been the primary root of the heresy but also being somewhat of a heart of chaos as well as having one of the largest legions with some of the greatest order and structure still in them despite the fall to chaos.

 StarTrotter wrote:
That's why I placed Lorgar as more influential. Also Magnus' legion is now either dust inside of power armor undying or pure individuals with no mutations at all. I'm not disagreeing with you that Lorgar's legion is giant, I'm also not denying that in the current time Lorgar's legion is far more influential.

But in terms of magical might. Lorgar has nothing on Magnus. As mentioned, even as Lorgar is insulting Magnus, he admits he isn't as strong. We are talking about a guy that before becoming a daemon was tearing apart emperor class titans, blasting gargants apart, having psychic meetings to convince Horus of this and that, sent a psychic message that tore through the Emperor's work, and was planned to sit upon the golden throne and guide Imperium's vessels through the webways not to mention warp. It is what it is, Magnus is mightier than Lorgar. That doesn't mean that Lorgar is weak. Heck no, as I placed him, he's the second strongest primarch and that's by a long shot. But thing is, being the mightiest isn't the only thing that matters. Also, assuming that all four gods giving you power automatically making you mightier isn't how it works. The chaos gods are fickle and for all we know all likely give the primarchs of all the gods less power as they aren't only theirs.

Also, are we really going to start to just toss them aside because they were the smallest legion (about 10,000 marines or something) in a world where apparently 1,000 space marines is a good chapter size and there are only around 1,000,000 marines in the Imperium of Mankind?

In terms of influence, Lorgar wins out having not only been the primary root of the heresy but also being somewhat of a heart of chaos as well as having one of the largest legions with some of the greatest order and structure still in them despite the fall to chaos.

Not to mention the Word Bearers were what gummed up the Ultramarines and kept them bogged down in the far east, away from Terra. I love the Emperor's Children, but Fulgrim failed to bring Manus with him and didn't do anything remarkable during the Battle of Terra.

 StarTrotter wrote:
That's why I placed Lorgar as more influential. Also Magnus' legion is now either dust inside of power armor undying or pure individuals with no mutations at all. I'm not disagreeing with you that Lorgar's legion is giant, I'm also not denying that in the current time Lorgar's legion is far more influential.

But in terms of magical might. Lorgar has nothing on Magnus. As mentioned, even as Lorgar is insulting Magnus, he admits he isn't as strong. We are talking about a guy that before becoming a daemon was tearing apart emperor class titans, blasting gargants apart, having psychic meetings to convince Horus of this and that, sent a psychic message that tore through the Emperor's work, and was planned to sit upon the golden throne and guide Imperium's vessels through the webways not to mention warp. It is what it is, Magnus is mightier than Lorgar. That doesn't mean that Lorgar is weak. Heck no, as I placed him, he's the second strongest primarch and that's by a long shot. But thing is, being the mightiest isn't the only thing that matters. Also, assuming that all four gods giving you power automatically making you mightier isn't how it works. The chaos gods are fickle and for all we know all likely give the primarchs of all the gods less power as they aren't only theirs.

Also, are we really going to start to just toss them aside because they were the smallest legion (about 10,000 marines or something) in a world where apparently 1,000 space marines is a good chapter size and there are only around 1,000,000 marines in the Imperium of Mankind?

In terms of influence, Lorgar wins out having not only been the primary root of the heresy but also being somewhat of a heart of chaos as well as having one of the largest legions with some of the greatest order and structure still in them despite the fall to chaos.

Magnus had his back broken by Russ. I honestly don't think Magnus is in the top five if its'c comparing them in duels against each other. However against all non-primarchs I think Magnus may be the strongest. I know that may not make sense to you but it's how I read the fluff. I think Lorgar at this point in the fluff would win most fights, but If both of them were pitted against Astartes or Eldar or any faction filled with beings of lesser strength and less plot armor than a Primarch I think that is where Magnus's power shows through in the fluff

1k Sons have way less than 10k presently.

Magnus has already beaten Lorgar's ass in a psychic duel from across the galaxy (In the very story you mentioned), and in Betrayer he outright admits that Magnus is far more powerful than he is ("You are just as powerful as father", in fact).

Lorgar also confirms that Magnus fought Russ half-heartedly, and if he either fully committed himself to being a martyr or to fighting back the Space Wolves, he and his legion would not be in their current predicament.

jakejackjake wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
That's why I placed Lorgar as more influential. Also Magnus' legion is now either dust inside of power armor undying or pure individuals with no mutations at all. I'm not disagreeing with you that Lorgar's legion is giant, I'm also not denying that in the current time Lorgar's legion is far more influential.

But in terms of magical might. Lorgar has nothing on Magnus. As mentioned, even as Lorgar is insulting Magnus, he admits he isn't as strong. We are talking about a guy that before becoming a daemon was tearing apart emperor class titans, blasting gargants apart, having psychic meetings to convince Horus of this and that, sent a psychic message that tore through the Emperor's work, and was planned to sit upon the golden throne and guide Imperium's vessels through the webways not to mention warp. It is what it is, Magnus is mightier than Lorgar. That doesn't mean that Lorgar is weak. Heck no, as I placed him, he's the second strongest primarch and that's by a long shot. But thing is, being the mightiest isn't the only thing that matters. Also, assuming that all four gods giving you power automatically making you mightier isn't how it works. The chaos gods are fickle and for all we know all likely give the primarchs of all the gods less power as they aren't only theirs.

Also, are we really going to start to just toss them aside because they were the smallest legion (about 10,000 marines or something) in a world where apparently 1,000 space marines is a good chapter size and there are only around 1,000,000 marines in the Imperium of Mankind?

In terms of influence, Lorgar wins out having not only been the primary root of the heresy but also being somewhat of a heart of chaos as well as having one of the largest legions with some of the greatest order and structure still in them despite the fall to chaos.

Magnus had his back broken by Russ. I honestly don't think Magnus is in the top five if its'c comparing them in duels against each other. However against all non-primarchs I think Magnus may be the strongest. I know that may not make sense to you but it's how I read the fluff. I think Lorgar at this point in the fluff would win most fights, but If both of them were pitted against Astartes or Eldar or any faction filled with beings of lesser strength and less plot armor than a Primarch I think that is where Magnus's power shows through in the fluff

1k Sons have way less than 10k presently.

To address the shorter bit first, yes, you are correct. Now, there are only 1k sons. Whilst 1k sons have done some significant things sense then, it is more of Ahriman and perhaps one other sorcerer that have really struck out and made any significant differences. Bar that, they are more of marauders mysterious and rare to be seen. I was adressing them as when they were a true legion.

Anyways, onto the later. First of all, Russ is implied to have psyker abilities himself. That is, anti-psyker psyker abilities . Okay then, the Fall of Prospero. Starting off, he cast a psychic veil over his planet so his legion would have no clue of the approaching invasion. Then, after he finally convinced he had done nothing wrong, he stomped out breaking the Space Wolves' assault with his great psychic power before meeting in combat to duel Leman Russ. From there, they dueled Magnus shattering Russ' breastplate with a mighty punch puncturing one of his hearts in response his own arm being snapped back shattered. Magnus summoned a blade of pure thought driving it deep through Russ' chest and bursting out of his back. The two enormous lupine monsters that accompanied Russ leapt upon Magnus biting into his legs. He slammed them down breaking their skulls. A flare of lback light struck russ making him ccry out in agony. And then, something happened. An odd twist of fate, perhaps a weaving of a plot by a nefarious lord that is everwatching. At that moment, Russ lashed out blindly with his blade that struck a blow against Magnus' one good eye. This sent Magnus reeling holding it with the hand that had formerly been broken (it was crackling with regenerative magic). Leman Russ took this time gripping him around and breaking his back. Finally, Magnus whispered eldricht words of power as he dissapeared into the air and Ahriman gained the power to teleport away with what remained of the Thousand Sons.

Also, Magnus has destroyed freakin' gargants and titans on several occasions and such feats are often compared to him when others commit something even close to such an act. As I mentioned though, Magnus might be the mightiest primarch, but he certainly isn't the greatest commander or near the most influential of them all.

EDIT: And what Void_Dragon said

 StarTrotter wrote:
First off, Magnus was planned to sit on the golden throne due to his psyker abilities. Magnus isn't a joke when he claims to be mighty. He's the primarch of the legion of psykers and is the daemon prince of Tzeentch for a reason. This is a guy that killed a gargant by creating a psyflame hurricane, he's blown up an ancient eldar titan. Drained, he promptly went into the warp to destroy the plague that was on that very planet. Lucius praises his power and even Lorgar admits that Magnus is still mightier.

Simply put, discounting chaos amped Horus, Magnus is the mightiest of the primarchs. He also is rather significant for being the head for the foundation of librarians and the sorts. That being said, he isn't the most important in the grand scheme of things. Horus is, obviously, more important. Lorgar is as well for him, and his legion, being really where the source of the heresy spreads, plus Lorgar eventually becomes the second mightiest primarch, yet again discounting chaosified Horus. Gulliman is also more significant than Magnus for the drastic changes to the Imperium he set about to after the Emperor was placed on the throne.

So, in terms of duelling, it'd probably go (all in m personal opinion)
Magnus>Lorgar>Angron?>The Angel>Leman Russ (the last 3 are more guesses). Probably Fulgrim after.
In terms of the most influential,
Lorgar>Horus>Gulliman>The Angel?>Magnus
In terms of commanding....
Horus, Gulliman, the Lion, Alphirus, and then a split between the two sieges. Well, to a lesser extent the Angel can be tossed in. All were good commanders in their own right.

Gulliman admits in unremembered empire the Lion is the better general of the two of them. that MAY just be modesty at play mind you, but it's worth noting

Well to be frank I also considered other capabilities in terms of commanding. The capability to inspire, social relations, controlling a domain, etc. I already had 3 lists

Remove Chaos traitorsssssssssssssssssssssssss.

Regarding the Lion vs. Guilliman, I recall an old military adage.

"Amateurs study tactics. Experts study strategy. Masters study logistics."

The Lion is probably Guilliman's better in the former and maybe even in strategy, but Guilliman is typically cited as the undisputed master of logistics among his brothers.

The thing about Guilliman is that he's simply too perfect. In school, the teacher's pet isn't favoured too highly. The jocks generally are but not by the teacher's pet. The nerds arn't highly thought of except by nerds. The emos stick to themselves.

Guilliman was sort of like the Nerd. Knew everything and did everything and was good at it. Gets perfect scores and goes on to be a multimillionaire. Everyone still hates him.

Then there is the emo who ends up smoking dope on the street, or in a metal/screamo band.

Then there is the teacher's pet who becomes the slimy little worm that you are praying is the first to die tin a horror film.


Horus was more the Model Student. Straight A grades (did extremely well militarily), was a great athlete (warrior) and the teacher (Emperor) loves him, as does everyone else, even the emos like Curze and Corax. He was just perfect for the role.

Kind of reminds me of a quote from Stan Lee about who would win in a fight X or Y. He simply stated 'neither' as stopping the fight or ending it in a draw leaves people talking. There were strengths for each Primarch and each had a style that would win in a scenario. However, the scenarios can be changed and new fluff can be made at a drop a hat that can make everything moot.

What's to stop Mat W from putting out a book where The Sigilite defeated Russ in an arm wrestling competition? Or that the Emperor is really Alpharious and therefore Alpharious is the strongest Primarch.

 Imperial_Arson wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Imperial_Arson wrote:
Along with Sanguinius, Horus, Angron, and Magnus.

I would actually think Fulgrim would be there equally if not more with Horus and Angron, since Fulgrim is on the road to perfection.. He seems like he would be the master of martial arts(not just kung fu, but sword technique, etc)..

Horus shouldn't be in the top five. He was only powerful or impressive after the buff by the Chaos Gods, but even then Vulkan or Magnus would probably smack him down, and hard.

It would sound less cooler but they should have made the Horus Heresy the Fulgrim Heresy..

Pretty sure Fulgrim actually did more against Primarchs then Horus. The killing of Sanguinius doesn't count since he pretty much was tired when it happened.

just seems like it would make more sense.

Um if you go that way with it it probably would of been the Erebus Heresy. Being as Erebus was the one who stole the Anathame and then give it to Temba, who then Wounded Horus. Thus allowing Erebus to talk the Mournival into taking Horus to the Searpent lodge to heal his wounds, and allowing Erebus to to enter Horus mind posing as sejanus, and basicaly making horus think that the emprorer will just hang him out to dry eventually. thus making horus burn the istvaan system to the ground and practically every other system on his way back Terra. Fulgrim didnt do much more than throw a few questionable partys to be fair.

The thing about Guilliman is that he's simply too perfect. In school, the teacher's pet isn't favoured too highly. The jocks generally are but not by the teacher's pet. The nerds arn't highly thought of except by nerds. The emos stick to themselves.

Guilliman was sort of like the Nerd. Knew everything and did everything and was good at it. Gets perfect scores and goes on to be a multimillionaire. Everyone still hates him.

Then there is the emo who ends up smoking dope on the street, or in a metal/screamo band.

Then there is the teacher's pet who becomes the slimy little worm that you are praying is the first to die tin a horror film.


Horus was more the Model Student. Straight A grades (did extremely well militarily), was a great athlete (warrior) and the teacher (Emperor) loves him, as does everyone else, even the emos like Curze and Corax. He was just perfect for the role.

I see a problem with this, your saying that the nerds lose but the last guys standing are the nerds. Horus is the second primarch to die, and it seems the teachers pets take over, Lorgar is the real power behind the throne of the Heresy and Guilliman takes over the Imperium.

Oh and on the subject of nerds. I agree that nerds do not deserve the praise they get, but nether do the jocks, their just different sides of the same coin, people who define themselves by their clubs and activities they engage in, really the world belongs to the punks, outcast, leather jackets, guys smoking by the coke machines. Why, cause we had the guts to stand on our own. Most nerds I knew are mooching of their parents and most jocks I knew have minimum wage jobs, the people i'm describing are writing novels and opening their own businesses.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

Oh and on the subject of nerds. I agree that nerds do not deserve the praise they get, but nether do the jocks, their just different sides of the same coin, people who define themselves by their clubs and activities they engage in, really the world belongs to the punks, outcast, leather jackets, guys smoking by the coke machines. Why, cause we had the guts to stand on our own. Most nerds I knew are mooching of their parents and most jocks I knew have minimum wage jobs, the people i'm describing are writing novels and opening their own businesses.

You really see no irony with this statement?

You really see no irony with this statement?

None at all.

America sounds like an interesting place.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
America sounds like an interesting place.

Apparently not the parts I am living in, I must be doing something horribly wrong >.>

Before this thread degenerates on a heated debate on the social value of the highschool rebel, here are some thoughts.

The was I see it Fulgrim's idea of "perfection" was all about technique often at the expense of results, perhaps too focused on the means but not really caring about the ends. Executing a Thunderhawk battlefield insert by the book despite the meager strategic gain and oblivious to losses. That's the Fulgrim thing.

Impracticality seems to run high on the Emperor's Children, really. Other legions perfect their drills, study ancient tactics, improve their gear or even dabble in forbidden knowledge. The EC send their guys over to Fabius Bile to turn them into weaponised versions of Yma Sumac.

Before this thread degenerates on a heated debate on the social value of the highschool rebel, here are some thoughts.

meager strategic gain and oblivious to losses. That's the Fulgrim thing.

Given that his legion was attached to the Luna Wolves can we really say that they were any good? I mean as soon as they go off on their own they start turning themselves into freaks that can't even reuse their gene seed and then betray the Emperor then betray the other traitors.

Khan, Lion, Corax, Curze would all give Fulgrim a run for his money

Strongest in a fight: Magnus, this is not a contest. He killed a Mega-Gargant with one blow and held off the Entire Space Wolf LEGION, The Silent Sisters who dampened his powers, and the Custodes while beating the crap out of Leman Russ and only lost because of Tzeentch's intervention. (It's not a coincidence that the sword landed on the only place he could be hurt)
Influence wise: Horus. He had the one thing all the other Primarchs lacked, the silver tongue. He convinced half of his Government's military to side with him against what many people considered a god.
Strongest Commander: Horus, again. He and his Legion were as capable as the all of specialist legions in their field, knew how to adapt to negative changes in the field, and had the abillity to read the battle and sieze the initative that Guilliman and the Lion didn't.

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
Strongest in a fight: Magnus, this is not a contest. He killed a Mega-Gargant with one blow and held off the Entire Space Wolf LEGION, The Silent Sisters who dampened his powers, and the Custodes while beating the crap out of Leman Russ and only lost because of Tzeentch's intervention. (It's not a coincidence that the sword landed on the only place he could be hurt)
Influence wise: Horus. He had the one thing all the other Primarchs lacked, the silver tongue. He convinced half of his Government's military to side with him against what many people considered a god.
Strongest Commander: Horus, again. He and his Legion were as capable as the all of specialist legions in their field, knew how to adapt to negative changes in the field, and had the abillity to read the battle and sieze the initative that Guilliman and the Lion didn't.

Wow... so many assumptions in your post.

This is all pretty much speculation, depending on which authors are writing the stories. In some they are all powerful Demi-gods, in others they are powerful but no invulnerable.

Undeniably though, the only primarchs who killed another primarchs are:

Fulgrim killing Ferrus and dealing a killing stroke to Rowboat.

Horus killing Sanguinius (while Horus was hopped up on the Chaos juice).

Guilliman killing Alpharius...or Omegrom...or some other dude, who knows with the Alpha Legion?

On his credentials here alone, Fulgrim has to be listed in the top 5.

Fulgrim was using Daemon powers when he did both of those things though.

Also, who hasn't beaten up Guilliman?