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Allow me to suggest this,

Most of the Primarchs in question right now, seem to be those who have fallen to Chaos. Let it be known that that fact alone proves their weakness, not their strength. They have all traded something that made them truly great, for power, and they have all suffered as a result, at the hands of beings greater than all of them and (as it stands to be seen) the Emperor is well.

All are pawns at the hands of the Chaos Gods. But them being "wimps" in comparison to the forces that supply them isn't an end to the conversation in itself either. Let's not forget that Fulgrim choked the life out of an Avatar of Khaine and Horus, while wounded by the Interex, was still dealing with a race that far out classed the Imperium. I don't know if it's ever stated that the Interex lose their war with the Imperium, but I know it happens and Horus doesn't get to prosecute it and it isn't really stated who does. Let's also not forget that the incident with the Interex also takes place on their home planet, in their stronghold, with no warning what-so-ever, during peace talks where they were as unarmed as they could be. And Horus still fought through the Centaurs bows that were killing Astartes left and right, while under a massive haze of confusion stirred up by the forces of Chaos (at this time acting through Erebus).

Let it be known at this time that no event in the Heresy, no matter how seemingly insignificant, was without its own great importance. The meeting of the Interex which led to the downtrodden spirits of Horus, his fateful encounter on Davin against (yes) Plaguebearers of Nurgul. Even his limited knowledge of the Warp was all seemingly written to a T when you start looking at the actual Chaos Gods and how they operate in a timeless state, as is the Warp.

So top 5 Primarchs? My list is based solely on description and tactic since I haven't read enough solid material to lend a better opinion. But I'd say somewhere that it goes,

Horus, Magnus, Dorn, Girlyman and then maybe Fulgrim. I say Girlyman because from what I understand, he's still alive, he's also been defeated and he apparently still possess all of the best traits of the other primarchs, including Fulgrims swordsmanship, Dorns anger, perhaps Magnus prescience (to a degree, not sure) and even Horus charisma and strategem.

But Horus is dead. Magnus is in despair and seems reliant on Ahriman. Dorn is dead (I think), Girlyman lives with the cream of the crop, supposedly, per what little I know of the Ultramarines and then Fulgrim for overtaking his Daemon, though like I said, he has lost much in his possession. Like sanity. >>

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

And Vulkan says he is the strongest if he doesnt hold back.

I thought he meant that in terms of being physically the strongest not necessarily the best in a fight.

He might as well have meant that, but the point is that he might think so, yet he has never proven it. The same goes for what the other Primarchs believed Horus could do, yet it was never proven. That is were the issue lies, how does one know if these statements are true if the fight never happens. One could argue around in circles about this Primarch beating this Primarch, so in extension being able to beat this one because the other one could too etc.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
For example, did Horus ever prove he could manage against two primarchs before his Chaos buff? Else we can place Konrad above him in terms of combat.

My understanding of that is that Curze was merely buying time. He wouldn't have one and it's unlikely it would have lasted a great deal longer had it continued.

Yes he was buying time,
but the fact is that he could do so against two other primarchs, while still being able to succeed in his plan, which would have worked if not for...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
But Horus is dead. Magnus is in despair and seems reliant on Ahriman. Dorn is dead (I think), Girlyman lives with the cream of the crop, supposedly, per what little I know of the Ultramarines and then Fulgrim for overtaking his Daemon, though like I said, he has lost much in his possession. Like sanity. >>

Guilleman is as good as dead, he is being preserved in the moment of death. So its about the same as Dorn, there is a tiny opening to allow magic/miracle GW writing. The interex was crushed somewhere along the fall of Horus since Davin.

Interesting idea to view weakness in that way, but how would Horus rank, having fallen while a brother warned him of the trap? Off course the others didnt do much better, but Horus seems to have fallen quite fast.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Who stated Horus was the best in a fight? I want names.

The Emperor was in peace talks with the Interex. If that's not "I don't want to have to exterminate you", I don't know what is.

The Emperor never even met the Interex, lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TiamatRoar wrote:
Just because Horus hasn't achieved any grand "feat" that we know of doesn't mean he hasn't done them off-camera. Maybe Horus can tank 50 plasma shots. Maybe he can't. We don't know. Therefore it's premature to say Lorgor or Fulgrim are stronger than Horus just because they did things while Horus has yet to have any examples. The only way we can actually LOGICALLY say "Lorgar is stronger than Horus because he lifted a Titan" is if we have a counter example of "Horus tried to lift a Titan once but failed", which we don't have. Until then, you're trying to compare a known variable (Lorgar can lift a Titan) to an unknown variable (can Horus lift a Titan? We don't know!). And that's NOT how actual logic is supposed to work. That's the equivalent of saying "55 > A in every situation, where "A" is unknown" while forgoing the possibility that maybe "A" = 56 or above, but we can't tell because WE DON'T KNOW.

...that said, Horus and the rest of the primarchs do have rules in the Forge World Horus Heresy series if you really want to do comparisons. Goodness knows that's probably going to get more consistant results than the crazy smorgasboard "as strong as the plot demands" stuff you'll get trying to make comparisons from Black Library.

We can say Lorgar is stronger than Horus because Lorgar telepathically dominated him, lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

Horus, Magnus, Dorn, Girlyman and then maybe Fulgrim. I say Girlyman because from what I understand, he's still alive, he's also been defeated and he apparently still possess all of the best traits of the other primarchs, including Fulgrims swordsmanship, Dorns anger, perhaps Magnus prescience (to a degree, not sure) and even Horus charisma and strategem.

This thread's context is that of a duel, apparently.

Guilliman was nearly killed by Angron, all who bore witness commented on Angron's superiority in a one on one manfight.

Dorn is eh, he was nearly killed by Curze, but there is probably some context to that fight.

Sanguinius is probably the better duelist among loyalists, as is Leman Russ, and both also have some amount of psychic prowess to aid them, especially Sanguinius.

But Horus is dead. Magnus is in despair and seems reliant on Ahriman. Dorn is dead (I think), Girlyman lives with the cream of the crop, supposedly, per what little I know of the Ultramarines and then Fulgrim for overtaking his Daemon, though like I said, he has lost much in his possession. Like sanity. >>

Magnus banished Ahriman, he isn't reliant on him, lol.

Dorn is probably dead, and Guilliman might as well be dead. Fulgrim stabbed him in the neck with a poisoned blade as a daemon and Guilliman has been frozen in stasis for thousands of years, to keep him from dying.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

We can say Lorgar is stronger than Horus because Lorgar telepathically dominated him, lol.

Now that's fair enough (assuming that happened as is).

It wouldnt be the fulgrim heresy, instead it would be the fulgrim fiasco.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
It wouldnt be the fulgrim heresy, instead it would be the fulgrim fiasco.

Fulgrim was the weakest of the primarchs in my honest opinion.

Lorgar and The Lion were the best Masters of War.

Ceann Fine wrote:
Iirc he only knocked Russ out after Russ started laughing about how stupid the fight was

Agreed.


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GoingtoHell wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Imperial_Arson wrote:
Along with Sanguinius, Horus, Angron, and Magnus.

I would actually think Fulgrim would be there equally if not more with Horus and Angron, since Fulgrim is on the road to perfection.. He seems like he would be the master of martial arts(not just kung fu, but sword technique, etc)..

Horus shouldn't be in the top five. He was only powerful or impressive after the buff by the Chaos Gods, but even then Vulkan or Magnus would probably smack him down, and hard.

That's a load of utter crap.

XXXX

Agreed. Horus was the "best" primarch, hence hiM being, ya know, WARMASTER.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kinratha wrote:

No you're right at the time that toddler utterly terrified me with that fork...I assume you are talking about Temba? If so you really should read sources first before you spew inane facts (incorrectly). Yes Horus was wounded but not by Temba, by the sword. It actually states in the book that Horus was practically fighting the sword and that it was moving too fast to follow. Evident by his appearance and the fact that he wielded a blade as powerful as Kinebrach Anathema, a weapon that has the power to lay low a primarch we can infer that Temba was in very high standing with Nurgle and therefore imbued with great strength and speed. Horus was also fighting in a rage and in a style unbefitting of his usual combat tactics which would certainly have impacted his performance. He in the end slaughtered Temba and while he was focused on killing him was stabbed in the shoulder. Another thing that you forgot to mention and something that is far more relevan than the event you raised was that jus before he fought Temba, he literally cleaved his way through hundreds of plague bearers.

XXXX

Either way, he lost his cool and was poked by a sword. And If i remember from the book, All the Plague zombies were from the imperial guard stationed there, so probably no plague bearers.

I also doubt that Temba was important to Nurgle, just a pawn and bait for the trap.

" green-fleshed things with horribly distended bellies" paragraph 2, page 118, false gods.
"vclouds of flies surrounded their cyclopian, horned heads." paragraph 3, page 143, flase gods.
Sounds a gak load like plague bearers to me.

Wouldnt angron stand a chance against the lion in fist to fist? I don't know a lot about him but what i have read said he was turned into a gladiator with stim pumps and essentially tore people apart. That and how "angry" he is.

 Rotary wrote:
Wouldnt angron stand a chance against the lion in fist to fist? I don't know a lot about him but what i have read said he was turned into a gladiator with stim pumps and essentially tore people apart. That and how "angry" he is.

Antron would murder the lion according to Corax, the fact that he slapped Russ around without a 3 day fight kinda proves this.

We don't really have a great idea, how much a primarch could "gauge" each other.

I don't find Corax as a valid source, as he seems pretty much wrong, all the time. Maybe the whole whiner thing puts me off.

On topic, Fulgrim has a two primarch body count. Carries the blade that wounded Horus, which apparently you just tell it who dies, and it happens.

I've read nearly all the HH books (Vulkan lives I couldn't make it past a hundred pages and I put down unremembered for other reasons), and I do not recall any situation in which Fulgrim doesn't make it through virtually unharmed.

So Fulgrim's whipping count : One Avatar of Khaine, one titan, Ferrus (twice), Roboute. As far as "badass foes", he's missing what, a daemon prince?

Off topic, though I enjoy these posts/debates, I would really love to see definitions. "Top 5 = duelist ability" or "Top 5 = all around effectiveness as a commander".

Oh, Primarch threads, ive been here before.

Attempting to get this back on track, yes, I'd put Fulgy in the top 5 considering he killed 2 other primarchs and has only been getting stronger since.

Didn't also take pretty long - when compared to other fallen primarchs - for Fulgrim to fall to chaos? Something like 5 years while Horus was something like a few months tops?

It took Fulgrim one day.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
It took Fulgrim one day.

Well, wasn't the daemon in the sword constantly eating away at his mind and when Fulgrim was finally at his most fragile (having just shortened Ferrus by 30 cm or so), it took the opportunity to completely break him?

I don't know about Fulgrim, but I'd vouch Alpharius for any duel

 Void__Dragon wrote:
It took Fulgrim one day.

No, unless you're referring to the "point of no return event", which obviously isn't something that would take long. The entire process lasted a few years, from the visit to the temple of the Laer to the death of Ferrus Manus.

Meh, these threads are pointless and childish. They always end in fanboys claiming that their primarchs are the awesomest ever.

And even a five year old child will see that it is: Horus, Sanguinius, Magnus, Angron & Russ, with the Lion as a 6th (probably a draw with Russ).

It is obvious!!!

In terms of significance, strength, or power? Just curious. In terms of power I would push Magnus and prop up Lorgar into the tops. In terms of significance, Magnus really propped up librarians, also before or after or during the HH? During and before Sanguinus is certainly second to Horus (or third) with Lorgar being somewhere in the top 3 since he was the first to really fall to chaos. After the war though, Gulliman certainly becomes one of the most important.

B-b-but da001 if we don't sensilesly bicker, then we will not satisfy the gods of chaos! The rage and nerd wars feed Khorne, the pleasure in a good post and this being about fulgrim pleasures Slaanesh, the never ending decay of our brain cells feeds Nurgle, and Tzeentch's fingers tap together as some opinions change, an eternal cycle of chaos twirling, twisting, and snapping!

 StarTrotter wrote:
(...)
B-b-but da001 if we don't sensilesly bicker, then we will not satisfy the gods of chaos! The rage and nerd wars feed Khorne, the pleasure in a good post and this being about fulgrim pleasures Slaanesh, the never ending decay of our brain cells feeds Nurgle, and Tzeentch's fingers tap together as some opinions change, an eternal cycle of chaos twirling, twisting, and snapping!

Hey you are right. Alas, I miss the times when sacrificing lambs and covering myself in entrails was enough.

 SarisKhan wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
It took Fulgrim one day.

No, unless you're referring to the "point of no return event", which obviously isn't something that would take long. The entire process lasted a few years, from the visit to the temple of the Laer to the death of Ferrus Manus.

The visit to the temple was all it took to corrupt the Legion though.

The emperor appointed Horus because he believed that Horus would always find a way to win. I suspect that this would apply to any one on one battles with his brothers (except Magnus) before he was corrupted and his judgment was impaired.

Raw strength is not the only determining factor. I think Horus would especially dominate Fulgrim in a duel because he completely had him psyched out. Horus would not let any stylistic considerations affect how he fought wheras Fulgrim probably limited his techniques artificially.

The most powerful primarch by far had to be Magnus I just cant see it any other way he could do things the other primarchs could not deal with, easily.

Fulgrim is interesting because he has had a lot written about him but even before his corruption he was full of pride and had many insecurities. He clearly mishandled the invasion of the Laern homeworld and wasted the lives and resources of his legion just because he wanted to conquer them in the framework of an artificial and unneccasarily short time period.

The speed and depth of his legion's fall suggests that it was very flawed and as leader Fulgrim is responsible for those flaws. Interestingly his subcommander that he murdered resisted the demon that was directly trying to corrupt him. The same demon that actually corrupted Fulgrim, so I geuss Fulgrim was actually weaker than some human/space marines!

Like the Greek gods it is the weaknesses not their super powers that make the primarchs interesting.

FAILGRUM had many weaknesses, top five primarch? Not by a long margin.

Lorgar Heresy

JWhex wrote:
Interestingly his subcommander that he murdered resisted the demon that was directly trying to corrupt him. The same demon that actually corrupted Fulgrim, so I geuss Fulgrim was actually weaker than some human/space marines!

You know, Fulgrim had been resisting the daemon for years even though for a long time he was unaware there was something to resist, and gave in to him only when Ferrus, his closest brother, died by his hand. Resisting said daemon knowingly for a while doesn't seem impressive in comparison.

Fulgrim's swordmanship could make him a contender but his overall qualities were not up to scratch. At the end of the day he was quite petty.

Horus was vital to everything. Horus was the cornerstone of the Imperium. He was needed as Warmaster to lead the GC so the Emperor could return and lay the foundations of the modern Imperium and be a political leader while the Warmaster, well, led the War effort.

Horus was also vital for its destruction. No other Primarch could have led it. None of the traitors had enough friends to lead it, and if Horus had stayed loyal its a good chance most of the traitors would too.

Lion wouldn't have had backing from anyone.

Fulgrim's only friends were Ferrus Manus (who rejected him in the HH), Kurze, for educating him, and Horus. And if Horus stayed loyal, and Manus was loyal anyway, Curze would have been his only helper. And Conrad's Legion together with Fulgrim's tiny legion would not have been enough. Space Wolves would've crushed them, soH's would have, Ultramarines, World Eaters.

Perturabo had too little friends and his arch-rival Dorn had a number. Plus Horus on the opposing team.

The Khan was well respected but not enough to go traitor for by anyone.

Kurze was generally disliked by all but Fulgrim and Horus, and neither would go bad for him.

Dorn had some friends but he's a die-hard Goody 2-shoes with his head so far up the Emperor's ass he can give a colonoscopy, and would never go bad.

Sanguinius. Well, he wasn't a goody two-shoes like Dorn, but he was FAR too noble to fall, even after Horus, his best friend, and Horus' own best friend wanted him to, and he lost a good number of sons to the forces of Khorne.

Ferrus was asked by Fulgrim directly and they fought (and then later fought to the death). No question here.

Angron had no friends to start a revolt.

Ultramarines might have but some allies but Guilliman had no reason to revolt, and even with inflated numbers, no one would have sided with him over Horus or the Emperor.

Mortarion had few friend if any.

Magnus had a tiny titchy legion and no-one would have sided with him, except maybe Lorgar, who was disliked and looked down on all around.

Lorgar had so few friends and allies he had no chance on his own (hence why he recruited Horus) and even Magnus would have help stop him.

Corax had a few friends but not enough sway to revolt.

Vulkan was pretty well liked but not enough to revolt.

Alpharius Omegon had no friends other than Horus and no where near the ability to fight a war against 17 other legions. Of course, it doesn't matter because they only turned traitor to make sure Horus won so Chaos would be forever destroyed or whatever.




So regardless of his personal qualities, which are hotly debated, Horus must come in the top 5 for his necessity in everything in the 31st Millenium, and he was a fairly powerful Primarch to boot.

 Deadshot wrote:
Angron had no friends to start a revolt.

Not entirely true, He was at least on good terms with Perturabo as "After Desh'ea" seems to imply.

 King Pariah wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Angron had no friends to start a revolt.

Not entirely true, He was at least on good terms with Perturabo as "After Desh'ea" seems to imply.

Ok, 1 friend who had few friends himself and both were not very popular. point still stands that neither of them could lead their own heresy.

Sorry for the necromancy here, but I've been away with life problems and such and this topic was of great interest to me, especially because it seemed to remain so tame between Chaos and Loyalist fanboys. XD Good show guys.

To Disciple of Fate: The thing about Horus' fall to Chaos though was that it had been pre-ordained by Chaos long before the Primarchs reached maturity. That's why the Chaos Gods tossed them across time and space in the first place. It was to test the mettle of each, and a full half fell before the end of the Heresy. Interestingly enough though, when you dig a bit deeper into the books themselves, the real difference between Horus and the others is quiet literally a matter of Choice that he and only he could make, despite all of the manipulation of events around him and the other Primarchs. It comes when he is felled and taken to the Serpent Lodge for revival, when he is in his fugue and meets with both Magnus and Erebus in some spirit-state. At one point, he literally is forced to look over both Magnus and Erebus (while Magnus' sorcerers are dying in droves trying to make this happen, by the way, a sacrifice that Horus completely ignores) and choose. In his pride however, and perhaps as the chink in the armor gets wrenched open, he leans on his Pride, which Erebus already has in his hands, and decides that he knows better to govern the universe than both Emperor and Dark Forces he has chosen to commune with. Effectively, he gives up his role as leader and becomes dictator, now no longer burdened with the trouble of sacrifice.

A better take on how this corruption manifests can be extrapolated from the Psykers themselves. Should any of them "enjoy" that forbidden thrill of wrenching life and reality apart rather than recoil in horror at their own power, that they will then descend on the road of Chaos. Effectively, this is the lure that tantalized Horus. Love the corrupt power, embrace and be better, but he was already the best, and in that dream state, Magnus tells him outright that it is better for him to die there, than to return to life, a massive slight to the Son of the Emperor, Beloved by All, Warmaster.

You see this trend when the Interex recoil at the realization that the leader they are meeting with is "WAR"master.


Void Dragon: I can agree with most of what you posted, however I'd make this amendment: Magnus banished Ahriman so that Ahriman could pursue his own means of ending Chaos and saving the Thousand Sons, including ending Magnus' tortured existence. But this goes into a way more complex theory of Magnus sacrificing himself in a game of existence long chess, where he knows he has already lost because he didn't know the game when he started playing, but with that head start he was able to drive Ahriman towards goals that could be at least at the moment, hidden from Tzeentch. Long enough at least for Magnus to make an move that would doom the Chaos gods in the future, no matter how long it took. Because what you see in Ahriman:Exile is this back and forth taunting game where Tzeentch wants Ahriman for his own, but Ahriman refuses to be used, despite understanding how naive or arrogant it would sound to play against the Great Conspirator in such a way. This all gets into the nature of psykers, the warp, the manifestion of their powers and exactly how one goes about even approaching the Great Game of the Chaos Gods without being swallowed up by it, as already half of the Space Marine Legions have.

This level of psychological warfare that is being played out actually reminds me a lot of Batman v. Joker actually. Where Joker wants to make Batman in his image, and Batman rebels, despite the futility of such an action. (been watching a lot of This v That on YouTube, and Batman has made himself a focal point in our home somehow. lol Ironic I guess.).


Asherian Command: Interestingly enough about Lorgar, since he is the first to fall, and somehow the mastermind of the fall of the rest of the Legions Astartes, it stands to reason that at least out side of martial prowess, he is an exceptional commander. After all, he lured the Warmaster to his cause. Even got him killed in the name of Chaos besting the Emperor and Friends. XD So Lorgar should probably rate somewhere, even though I can't help but think of him as some apex caveman type with a Prometheus complex. lol


Can't specify really, so I'm gonna lump the rest of this together since it all kinda rolled into the same point near the end of page 3. lol

Define: "Corruption" and what it means to be "corrupt?" Because if we consider the start of corruption has having already "corrupted" said target, then yeah. The Emperors Children and Fulgrim all fell to Chaos the day they fought with the Laer. Simply put, whether it's a little or a lot, whether it grows or is stayed, is irrelevant. Corruption is Corruption, so day one. Yep. The Emperors Children ate it hard. Worse than the Luna Wolves anyway. Towards the end of the Luna Wolves, you still had a great many loyalists in the ranks, while in the Emperors children, not so much. In fact, Temeter is the only name out of the Emperor's Children (aside from Huron Fal) who actively goes against his corruption (even though the Istvvaan Massacres involved a purging of loyalists from all factions), but in terms of importance, those are the only two names in the Emperor's Children that actively rebel'd against their own Legion, Huron Fal a little less so. Where as in the Luna Wolves there was still Torgaddon, Loken and even Little Horus right up to the point where he takes Torgaddons head off, and then he finally falls to his sorrow of events. Edit: They're not "technically" Luna Wolves, but they were a part of the fleet: There was also Iacton Qruze, Kyril Sindermann and Mersadie Oliton. Way more people in their right minds in the Luna Wolves than there were in the Emperors Children, but then we are also talking about a difference of "corruption" as well. In the case of the Luna Wolves, their corruption came in the form of Great Betrayal, where as the Emperor's Children were corrupted by Excess. You see it in the first of the Emperors Children who come back from the Laer, including Fulgrim himself. They are corrupted at that single moment, because once they go home, they can no longer experience life like a normal person anymore. They immediately start devolving into searches for extreme stimulation to make up for the loss of it after the fighting with the Laer, and so the spiral goes into oblivion until Fulgrim himself, overcome by grief and begging death, is finally devoured by the Sword of the Laer. Side note: If I'm not mistaken, even though Fulgrim had the Anathame, I don't believe he actually used it all that much, instead favoring the Slaaneshi blade taken from the Laer. I could have misread that, but I'm pretty sure that even though he gets the Anathame, he refuses to use it. Some swordsman, huh? lol

But back to Fulgrim. The reason he has all of those insecurities in the first place is because when his legion was first born, something stupid happen that nearly killed them all, and forced the Emperor's Children to fight along side the Luna Wolves until they were back to operational strength. This seeded a MASSIVE inferiority complex among the Emperors Children, while also ensuring the fraternity had between Fulgrim and Horus that made Fulgrim so integral to the Heresy in the first place. And that seems strange, but consider how much is written about Fulgrim? It wasn't because he was particularly powerful or anything like that, but because he was the focus of Slaanesh, one of the four chaos gods that takes the reigns over the Traitor Legions. He was important, without being necessarily powerful, and it's because of things like the Anathame he wields, and murdering Ferrus (which infuriates Horus and drives his ego even further, although to be fair Horus was more pissed off at the demon inside of Fulgrim).

And now to wrap this wall of text up: How did we get to "Why the Heresy wouldn't work with anyone else?" instead of "Top 5?" XD Relevant, but it seemed like a little unusual twist. lol

Hope I hit it all and someone cares. XD Even more so, I hope this was someone revealing.

 kinratha wrote:

Either way, he lost his cool and was poked by a sword. And If i remember from the book, All the Plague zombies were from the imperial guard stationed there, so probably no plague bearer
I also doubt that Temba was important to Nurgle, just a pawn and bait for the trap
XXXX

To be fair things only happened that way because Graham McNeill did a terrible job with that book. He took the awesome Horus from book one and made him an unlikable arrogant douche, but you're wrong about him getting bested by any old plague zombie. Youre looking at it how you want to. The way it is written basically any Primarch would have lost. They lead you to believe that on purpose

The interex point was dumb. Horus was trying to do the right thing. It actually shows his inner strength by being the bigger man

Strongest Primarchs are Magnus, Lorgar, Horus, Angron not sure who the fifth would be it would be super tight. Probably The Angel. Without a doubt the first four though. Lorgar is only boss dog around the time of Aurelian. Before that he is still in puberty basically and hadn't hit manhood.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vulgar wrote:
We don't really have a great idea, how much a primarch could "gauge" each other.

I don't find Corax as a valid source, as he seems pretty much wrong, all the time. Maybe the whole whiner thing puts me off.

On topic, Fulgrim has a two primarch body count. Carries the blade that wounded Horus, which apparently you just tell it who dies, and it happens.

I've read nearly all the HH books (Vulkan lives I couldn't make it past a hundred pages and I put down unremembered for other reasons), and I do not recall any situation in which Fulgrim doesn't make it through virtually unharmed.

So Fulgrim's whipping count : One Avatar of Khaine, one titan, Ferrus (twice), Roboute. As far as "badass foes", he's missing what, a daemon prince?

Off topic, though I enjoy these posts/debates, I would really love to see definitions. "Top 5 = duelist ability" or "Top 5 = all around effectiveness as a commander".

Lorgar beats the piss out of Fulgrim and Fulgrim basically begs Horus to stop him. So I'd sayLorgar is tougher.

Vulgar wrote:
We don't really have a great idea, how much a primarch could "gauge" each other.

I don't find Corax as a valid source, as he seems pretty much wrong, all the time. Maybe the whole whiner thing puts me off.

On topic, Fulgrim has a two primarch body count. Carries the blade that wounded Horus, which apparently you just tell it who dies, and it happens.

I've read nearly all the HH books (Vulkan lives I couldn't make it past a hundred pages and I put down unremembered for other reasons), and I do not recall any situation in which Fulgrim doesn't make it through virtually unharmed.

So Fulgrim's whipping count : One Avatar of Khaine, one titan, Ferrus (twice), Roboute. As far as "badass foes", he's missing what, a daemon prince?

Off topic, though I enjoy these posts/debates, I would really love to see definitions. "Top 5 = duelist ability" or "Top 5 = all around effectiveness as a commander".

Read Aurellian, Lorgar beats the crap out of Fulgrim and would have killed him if he wasn't called off by Horus. Also Fulgrim only beat the Avatar because of the Daemon in the Sword. The Avatar was giving him a beating until Fulgrim realised it was trying to destroy the sword rather than him and exploited this to distract the Avatar. As for leadership, Fulgrim was one of the worst commanders of the Great Crusade. Sure he started out great, with a well disciplined structured force, but before the Heresy he was already losing a grip on them, encouraging self aggrandisment by promoting useless braggarts like Eidolon and Sycophants like Marius, while allowing great but humble warriors like Saul Taritz to languish in the rank and file because they don't have the right kind of flair. Then even worse than that, at the onset of the Heresy, he allowed Fabius to poison his entire legion and turn them into a debased disusting parody of the Astartes. Even if Fulgrim had not turned, his Legion would have because they were already turning into monsters before Horus brought them to his cause. As a diplomat he is even worse, taking offense at anyone who doesn't treat him like the greatest man alive, only surrounding himself with yes men so he'd never get valid advice, and his arrogance was off putting to many of his brother Legions.

As the question is would he be a top Primarch, not "top warrior" I'd say no, not at all. Horus Guilliman, The Lion and Sanguinius were the best because they had the best mixture of the qualities required to be a Primarch. Each of them had a failing but were great at the other things. Horus's pride didn't help his diplomacy, in fact it was largely thanks to Dorn, Lorgar and Sanguinius that most of the other Primarchs came around to the idea of him as the Warmaster. Sanguinius lacked the purity of purpose of the others, afraid of possible flaws in his DNA which held him back from being the confident leader the Crusade needed. The Lion was too sectretive and didn't bond easily with others, he wasn't liked enough to be put in charge. Honestly I have no idea why Guilliman wasn't put in charge. He was the only Primarch who had a vision for the future, not just the war. He trained a Legion to do more than just fight, but to lead and inspire, he didn't seek aggrandisement like Horus and Fulgrim, give in to his emotions like Angron, Ferrus or Perturabo. He was open and honest unlike, the Khan, The Lion, Alpharius and Corax. He perfectly accepted his place as a leader and didn't yearn for a simple life like Vulcan, he knew when to question the purpose of laws not just enforce them like Russ. He didn't hold grudges and brood like Lorgar and Mortarion, didn't doubt himself like Sanguinius or Dorn, wasn't broken like Curze and he lacked the Hubris and was far more human than Magnus. He already built the greatest sub empire in the Imperium, he was not worried about the fate of his Legion post Great Crusade because he'd trained them in other regards, so they didn't need war to function. Plus his doctrines have largely allowed the Imperium to continue to exist without another rebellion on the scale of the Heresy for 10,000 years.

I hated the Ultramarines at the beginning of the series, I have never been a fan of the poster boys, but damn if it isn't impossible to respect the man, nothing he has done is for himself, he did a better job of leading than the Emperor if you ask me.

yeah the question of "so why isn't Gulliman warmaster?" is a damn good one to ask.

I think it's a host of things, firstly Horus is the favored one, I'm not even saying it's just the emperor here, but it seems everyone of the Primarchs loved Horus, he was the "big brother they looked up to" I guess. it'd be hard for Gulliman however to say, issue orders to Lorgar. Horus was, as far as I can tell, unique among the Primarchs for his lack of ENEMIES. so in that one could argue Horus is something of a possiable "comprimise canidate"

Another thing, and "Know no fear" touches on this, Gulliman may not have WANTED it, perfering to sort of focus on his own thing and building up his own pocket empire. The Emperor may have figured he'd not really want the job anyway