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What do you mean

Sigh are people still debating this?

How many times must this be stated before it sinks in? Horus has always been numero uno, and he will continue to be the #1 Primarch in future too.
This is an undisputable fact.

... what they're debating is how he is numero uno. In what fashion is he numero uno.

It... it helps to read discussions.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
... what they're debating is how he is numero uno. In what fashion is he numero uno.

It... it helps to read discussions.

True. My comment was more directed towards for those people, who think along the lines of this.

 Wyzilla wrote:
'Cause he never really does anything exceptionally impressive. Yeah, he smacked around the Emperor, but he was holding back and previously Horus was wounded by human space elves. Meanwhile, Vulkan's effectively invincible and Magnus is the second strongest psyker in the galaxy. I'd even put the likes of Angron, Russ, Sanguinius, and Fulgrim over Horus.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
... what they're debating is how he is numero uno. In what fashion is he numero uno.

It... it helps to read discussions.

True. My comment was more directed towards for those people, who think along the lines of this.

 Wyzilla wrote:
'Cause he never really does anything exceptionally impressive. Yeah, he smacked around the Emperor, but he was holding back and previously Horus was wounded by human space elves. Meanwhile, Vulkan's effectively invincible and Magnus is the second strongest psyker in the galaxy. I'd even put the likes of Angron, Russ, Sanguinius, and Fulgrim over Horus.

Because that's what we have as evidence. As far as feats are concerned, Horus is up a creek without a paddle compared to other primarchs who eat plasma, have wolverine-level regeneration, or are second only to the Emperor in psyker power. Horus simply is the Mario, jack of none. The only real power he holds is as a skillful politician, partially thanks to Maloghurst.

 Redcruisair wrote:
Sigh are people still debating this?

How many times must this be stated before it sinks in? Horus has always been numero uno, and he will continue to be the #1 Primarch in future too.
This is an undisputable fact.

I beat you in that debate though.

Which reminds me, guess I should respond in the other thread.

 Wyzilla wrote:
[
Horus shouldn't be in the top five. He was only powerful or impressive after the buff by the Chaos Gods, but even then Vulkan or Magnus would probably smack him down, and hard.

Guess one of those two should have teleported aboard the Vengeful Spirit then huh? Seeing as they could do a better job than the Emperor and all...

No one save the Emperor could defeat Horus after glutting on Chaos, IMO.

MarsNZ wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
[
Horus shouldn't be in the top five. He was only powerful or impressive after the buff by the Chaos Gods, but even then Vulkan or Magnus would probably smack him down, and hard.

Guess one of those two should have teleported aboard the Vengeful Spirit then huh? Seeing as they could do a better job than the Emperor and all...

Neither Vulkan or Magnus were present last I recalled. And Magnus had fallen to Chaos by the Battle of Terra.

Guess I should use sarcasm tags, 2/2 posters seemed to have missed it.

By that logic then Chaos Magnus could have saved the Heresy for the Traitors with ease, simply go and do what Horus didn't quite manage, [SARCASM]should be easy seeing as the Emperor isn't even on his level[/SARCASM]

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
... what they're debating is how he is numero uno. In what fashion is he numero uno.

It... it helps to read discussions.

True. My comment was more directed towards for those people, who think along the lines of this.

 Wyzilla wrote:
'Cause he never really does anything exceptionally impressive. Yeah, he smacked around the Emperor, but he was holding back and previously Horus was wounded by human space elves. Meanwhile, Vulkan's effectively invincible and Magnus is the second strongest psyker in the galaxy. I'd even put the likes of Angron, Russ, Sanguinius, and Fulgrim over Horus.

Because that's what we have as evidence. As far as feats are concerned, Horus is up a creek without a paddle compared to other primarchs who eat plasma, have wolverine-level regeneration, or are second only to the Emperor in psyker power. Horus simply is the Mario, jack of none. The only real power he holds is as a skillful politician, partially thanks to Maloghurst.

Have you ever considered that is because he doesn't put him self in positions that lead to him having to do that? His legion has the most victories while not being the largest or the best equipped. Therefore it stands to reason he was probably in the most number of battles. And yet he never has to tank plasma shots or fight titans. The others had to because they were forced to, not out of choice.

XXXX

GoingtoHell wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
... what they're debating is how he is numero uno. In what fashion is he numero uno.

It... it helps to read discussions.

True. My comment was more directed towards for those people, who think along the lines of this.

 Wyzilla wrote:
'Cause he never really does anything exceptionally impressive. Yeah, he smacked around the Emperor, but he was holding back and previously Horus was wounded by human space elves. Meanwhile, Vulkan's effectively invincible and Magnus is the second strongest psyker in the galaxy. I'd even put the likes of Angron, Russ, Sanguinius, and Fulgrim over Horus.

Because that's what we have as evidence. As far as feats are concerned, Horus is up a creek without a paddle compared to other primarchs who eat plasma, have wolverine-level regeneration, or are second only to the Emperor in psyker power. Horus simply is the Mario, jack of none. The only real power he holds is as a skillful politician, partially thanks to Maloghurst.

Have you ever considered that is because he doesn't put him self in positions that lead to him having to do that? His legion has the most victories while not being the largest or the best equipped. Therefore it stands to reason he was probably in the most number of battles. And yet he never has to tank plasma shots or fight titans. The others had to because they were forced to, not out of choice.

XXXX

That's not how feats work. Did he ever display prowess in combat on the level of Magnus or Vulkan or eat Titan plasma like Lorgar? If no, there's no reason why he should be believed to be as powerful as the other primarchs.

The fact that Lorgar managed to hold up a warhounds foot without prolapsing his rectum is admirable.

Its not something i think Fulgrim pre/post daemonhood would ever achieve.

badgermeister wrote:
The fact that Lorgar managed to hold up a warhounds foot without prolapsing his rectum is admirable.

Its not something i think Fulgrim pre/post daemonhood would ever achieve.

From what I know it was Angron, not Lorgar, who wrestled with the Warhound.

Loyalist Fulgrim probably wouldn't, but Daemon Primarch Fulgrim probably would cut a Scout Titan to ribbons. Don't forget he defeated the Spiritual Liege!

 Wyzilla wrote:
Because that's what we have as evidence. As far as feats are concerned, Horus is up a creek without a paddle compared to other primarchs who eat plasma, have wolverine-level regeneration, or are second only to the Emperor in psyker power. Horus simply is the Mario, jack of none. The only real power he holds is as a skillful politician, partially thanks to Maloghurst.

And that isn't impressive? Without inviting other comparisons - I'm a pretty big guy. And I've seen pictures of Hitler. I'm pretty sure if I ever met him in person, I could probably beat him up, even kill him. I mean, he was kinda weedy, and all he had going for him was his ambition and skills as an orator and politician. Yet one of us turned a destitute country into the world's premiere fighting force of it's time, and the other is spending his morning debating the strengths and weaknesses of fictional characters that get into a fight. Which one of us is the most powerful?

 SarisKhan wrote:

badgermeister wrote:
The fact that Lorgar managed to hold up a warhounds foot without prolapsing his rectum is admirable.

Its not something i think Fulgrim pre/post daemonhood would ever achieve.

From what I know it was Angron, not Lorgar, who wrestled with the Warhound.

Loyalist Fulgrim probably wouldn't, but Daemon Primarch Fulgrim probably would cut a Scout Titan to ribbons. Don't forget he defeated the Spiritual Liege!

Pre-serpent Fulgrim has already done what you just described there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:
Sigh are people still debating this?

How many times must this be stated before it sinks in? Horus has always been numero uno, and he will continue to be the #1 Primarch in future too.
This is an undisputable fact.

I beat you in that debate though.

I will let the community of Dakka be the judge of that.

tgjensen wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Because that's what we have as evidence. As far as feats are concerned, Horus is up a creek without a paddle compared to other primarchs who eat plasma, have wolverine-level regeneration, or are second only to the Emperor in psyker power. Horus simply is the Mario, jack of none. The only real power he holds is as a skillful politician, partially thanks to Maloghurst.

And that isn't impressive? Without inviting other comparisons - I'm a pretty big guy. And I've seen pictures of Hitler. I'm pretty sure if I ever met him in person, I could probably beat him up, even kill him. I mean, he was kinda weedy, and all he had going for him was his ambition and skills as an orator and politician. Yet one of us turned a destitute country into the world's premiere fighting force of it's time, and the other is spending his morning debating the strengths and weaknesses of fictional characters that get into a fight. Which one of us is the most powerful?

well... you're still Alive

tgjensen wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Because that's what we have as evidence. As far as feats are concerned, Horus is up a creek without a paddle compared to other primarchs who eat plasma, have wolverine-level regeneration, or are second only to the Emperor in psyker power. Horus simply is the Mario, jack of none. The only real power he holds is as a skillful politician, partially thanks to Maloghurst.

And that isn't impressive? Without inviting other comparisons - I'm a pretty big guy. And I've seen pictures of Hitler. I'm pretty sure if I ever met him in person, I could probably beat him up, even kill him. I mean, he was kinda weedy, and all he had going for him was his ambition and skills as an orator and politician. Yet one of us turned a destitute country into the world's premiere fighting force of it's time, and the other is spending his morning debating the strengths and weaknesses of fictional characters that get into a fight. Which one of us is the most powerful?

Yes. Because in a fight you'd probably beat the snot out of Hitler, making you the stronger person in a fight.

And we're on the second page and Nazis have already been invoked. I think this is a record.

GoingtoHell wrote:
And show me some sources or examples that dispute the dpfsct that another 2 other primaries claim he is the most powerful. I used a one line argument to counter his as we had previously had a debate about this very same topic in another thread.
Responding to my comment with pointless and totally unsupported one line sentences is not a valid argument.

XXXX

He was never stated to be the "Most powerful". He was stated to be the "Best".

The two are not the same thing.

In this case, "The best" is viewed through the lens of a pacifistic idealist who was conquering the galaxy for its own good (the Emperor, I mean), so of course he viewed the "perfect diplomat" as the best primarch, rather than the "supreme duelist", "the prophet", "the wizard" or "the mad dog" (and who can guess which primarchs I gave which titles?)

How was the emperor even remotely a pacifist?

He wanted everyone to be friends. He didn't want to fight. He just understood that the galaxy is a crapsack that needs subjugating before they can stop fighting.

Appointing a perceived pacifist for the rank of Warmaster sounds really silly. The Emprah was a well-intentioned extremist, not a goody two-shoes. I think some of you are trying to hard to prove that Horus was "nothing special". Most of the arguments range from semi-rational to asinine.

Seriously, labelling him as "the best" in official sources time and again was most likely intended to convey that he was the best, not "kind of good", or "above average".

Regarding Fulgrim wrestling with a Titan, I assume that happened in Reflection Crack'd? I must read that story at last.

The emperor did not want everyone to be friends, he wanted humanity to exterminate the other alien races. These anti Horus arguments are ridiculous! He has always been stated by the other primarch so as the best Ina fight as well as being the greatest among them how is there this much dispute over it?

Who stated Horus was the best in a fight? I want names.

The Emperor was in peace talks with the Interex. If that's not "I don't want to have to exterminate you", I don't know what is.

Corax said in ravens flight that horus and possibly sanguinius was the only one capable of beating angron in combat. Lorgar in betrayer says that horus and angron are the only ones capable of beating sanguinius when he has nothing else to lose.

Ceann Fine wrote:
Corax said in ravens flight that horus and possibly sanguinius was the only one capable of beating angron in combat. Lorgar in betrayer says that horus and angron are the only ones capable of beating sanguinius when he has nothing else to lose.

This. People who say Horus is weak seem to consistently forget this part if the fluff and often conveniently ignore it when it arises because there is no logical counter to it.

XXXX

GoingtoHell wrote:

Ceann Fine wrote:
Corax said in ravens flight that horus and possibly sanguinius was the only one capable of beating angron in combat. Lorgar in betrayer says that horus and angron are the only ones capable of beating sanguinius when he has nothing else to lose.

This. People who say Horus is weak seem to consistently forget this part if the fluff and often conveniently ignore it when it arises because there is no logical counter to it.

XXXX

And Vulkan says he is the strongest if he doesnt hold back. All these 'say'/'said'/'believe' is a personal preference by a primarch. Some of them havent even really spoken, barely knowing each other. For the strong/weak in combat were going on proven feats, like the ones that place Lorgar and Magnus above Horus.
For example, did Horus ever prove he could manage against two primarchs before his Chaos buff? Else we can place Konrad above him in terms of combat.

Just so we're clear here we are now going beyond what other primarchs have said due to the belief it's nor relevant? Curse at one time held off two primarchs and on another occasion got nearly killed by one of those two. Why when it's outright stated by other primarchs that horus was the greatest of them in combat it's not accepted and yet people wax lyrical about the possibility of what Magnus among others could do

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

And Vulkan says he is the strongest if he doesnt hold back.

I thought he meant that in terms of being physically the strongest not necessarily the best in a fight.

For example, did Horus ever prove he could manage against two primarchs before his Chaos buff? Else we can place Konrad above him in terms of combat.

My understanding of that is that Curze was merely buying time. He wouldn't have one and it's unlikely it would have lasted a great deal longer had it continued.

Just because Horus hasn't achieved any grand "feat" that we know of doesn't mean he hasn't done them off-camera. Maybe Horus can tank 50 plasma shots. Maybe he can't. We don't know. Therefore it's premature to say Lorgor or Fulgrim are stronger than Horus just because they did things while Horus has yet to have any examples. The only way we can actually LOGICALLY say "Lorgar is stronger than Horus because he lifted a Titan" is if we have a counter example of "Horus tried to lift a Titan once but failed", which we don't have. Until then, you're trying to compare a known variable (Lorgar can lift a Titan) to an unknown variable (can Horus lift a Titan? We don't know!). And that's NOT how actual logic is supposed to work. That's the equivalent of saying "55 > A in every situation, where "A" is unknown" while forgoing the possibility that maybe "A" = 56 or above, but we can't tell because WE DON'T KNOW.

...that said, Horus and the rest of the primarchs do have rules in the Forge World Horus Heresy series if you really want to do comparisons. Goodness knows that's probably going to get more consistant results than the crazy smorgasboard "as strong as the plot demands" stuff you'll get trying to make comparisons from Black Library.