Based on the fluff assumption that the sides involved are roughly match which army would be the mostly likely to try for, and succeed, at maintaining air superiority?

My guess would be Tau. Given their military doctrine I would imagine that establishing air superiority would be a high priority and they have the tools to do it.

Tau love air superiority for the mobility it offers.

Space Marines love their drop pods, but they would probably end up with orbital superiority (which is different although closely related).

Tyranids would pretty much just black out the sky with biomorphs and spores.

Really it would be easier to say which factions DON'T want air superiority. Dark Eldar (webway) and Demons (warp travel) are about all that come to mind.

I'll be interested to see where this topic goes. It's a question that appeals to me.

Seeing as that the Dark Eldar have a very large amount of air units (all of their vehicles to be exact), I would say they certainly want to have air superiority.
Orbital superiority would not be important to them as they use the webway, but air superiority would be of paramount importance to the DE.

For strictly atmospheric air superiority, I'd say you are spot on when it comes to the Tau. They love that kind of thing, and they do it very, very well.

However, if we expand it to orbital superiority, the Imperium (IG and Space Marines) come roaring back in into the conversation in a big way.

Well it depends how far its going. The fleet would have to control the space around the planet first. Id think of it like the Pacific war. Where the navies fight simply to have their aircraft carriers control the skies.

The once orbit is secure you have defended your planet.

If you loose orbit then the invaders have complete anything above ground superiority.

Id say the imperium factions would normally have air superiority. Its vital that their supply routes and so on are secure so i cant imagine them winning anything without it.

But against gurilla style fighters (dark eldar) then although they probably never hold true area superiority but instead make air superiority costly.

My vote goes to the imperium.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Seeing as that the Dark Eldar have a very large amount of air units (all of their vehicles to be exact), I would say they certainly want to have air superiority.
Orbital superiority would not be important to them as they use the webway, but air superiority would be of paramount importance to the DE.

That's actually a very good point. I always forget that in the fluff skimmers don't have to stay 5 ft above the dirt at all times. I'm pretty sure the Tau ones are actually capable of being dropped out of aircraft and landing alright at least. Since Dark Eldar transports can deep strike I would imagine they're even more capable.

How about normal eldar, with their cloacking shields they are very hard to shoot down

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
How about normal eldar, with their cloacking shields they are very hard to shoot down

Eldar almost always fight in small hit and run groups. So although they kick butt they probably never hold superior anything. They just deal out the pain then disappear. Then strike somewhere else annoying. Including their aircraft. They are by far the most annoying kind of enemy to fight.

Air and orbital superiority is a fine but important distinction. Though I suspect that all armies would want air superiority some would push for it harder than others. I imagine that Space Marines and SoB probably train to assume they won't have it and IG I think would mirror more of a real world Soviet military doctrine where air superiority was more of a take it or leave it issue.

Eldar I imagine would only pursue limited air superiority (a specific location for a specific amount of time) as they would not commit the numbers for a large air campaign.

It's harder to say with Tyranids and Orks, I doubt either one of them consider air vs ground to be a separate theater of operations. They got to land some time...

When it comes to space superiority I think that is harder to define. The fluff seems to vary about how effective orbital blockades are. I imagine that in most cases orbital, air and ground operations are going on at the same time in most planetary engagements. I imagine that if an Imperial fleet swept into orbital control without neutralizing ground forces it would find itself pretty beat up by ground to orbit weaponry before it could position itself for bombardment. Or it could be just too costly to smash up every habitable planet they fight over.

Tyranid... because if they are there, then there's 90 billion of them there, and more coming in behind those.

Air superiority is only possible when you hold orbital superiority lest the enemy blow you out of the sky. So, Necrons followed by the Imperium. Orks as well through shear numbers. Tau for tactical skill, although it won't last long when the big guns show up.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Air superiority is only possible when you hold orbital superiority lest the enemy blow you out of the sky. So, Necrons followed by the Imperium. Orks as well through shear numbers. Tau for tactical skill, although it won't last long when the big guns show up.

Don't forget Tyranids. It's hard to keep your Valkyrie in the air when the engines are clogged with Gargoyles.

Eldar have the most agile fighters.

Imperium has the toughest fighters

Tau have nothing.

Orks have weakest fliers.

Necrons have the best space ships

 Wyzilla wrote:
Air superiority is only possible when you hold orbital superiority lest the enemy blow you out of the sky. So, Necrons followed by the Imperium. Orks as well through shear numbers. Tau for tactical skill, although it won't last long when the big guns show up.

I disagree. I think I would be possible that Naval forces could control the space around a planet. But planetary defences world prevent the ship from bringing their power to bear. If you are familiar with Star wars think the battle of Hoth. The rebels had air superiority but not space superiority.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Eldar have the most agile fighters.

Imperium has the toughest fighters

Tau well trained pilot, advanced sensors, and good tactics

Orks have weakest fliers. But they have a lot

Necrons have the best space ships

Fixed it.

Orks. It doesn't matter if you have fancy cloaking devices if your outnumbered 10 to 1.

Actually the difference between orbital and air superiority is much less separate than people make it out to be. Take for example the real world spy satellites replacing spy planes. You can accomplish much the same goals in either height from planet and the two are less separate than air vs ground as one can target the other much easier (and in fact where you draw the line is hotly debated).

The difference being that air vehicles are usually easier to produce than space vehicles. In 40K this appears to be largely untrue for the major factions and so the real dividing line between the two would be the height from ground vs the width of the planet where the "air" vehicle can be targeted from significant ranges. This actually makes the rules in the game make more sense as all the "air" power we see in the game has to hug the ground or they would have been involved with the orbital battle as the near orbital support could shoot them from half a planet away if they were a mile in the sky (depending on planet size, probably an overstatement but you get the point).

Necrons have the best orbital and air support period. A fully awakened dynasty will roll through an entire IoM sector without difficulties.

If you even out the numbers then the eldar are the only race capable of contesting them.

The Tau are the least advanced other than orks in terms of air superiority. They have decent ground to air units but their fliers are not a match and their skimmers are not flying vehicles in the fluff. DE and CWE are capable of orbital flight with their skimmers. Tau have much less developed tech and anti grav than eldar and necrons according to the fluff.

The IoM is a weird one. They do seek air superiority but they have a hard time coordinating it properly. Keep in mind that their fights are all imperial navy vehicles and assigned as needed to ground forces.

The only faction that I have not seen concerted efforts to gain and maintain air superiority are SM, SoB, and GK. Each of these forces however traditionally are meant to operate with PDF, IG/Imperial navy, mechanicum, or rogue trader support and so they may depend on these forces to supplement their air superiority past what 1000 total marines can manage (honestly a SM chapter cannot even put a squad in each engagement zone across a planet going solo without support against a planet is hilariously daff).

Zookie wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Air superiority is only possible when you hold orbital superiority lest the enemy blow you out of the sky. So, Necrons followed by the Imperium. Orks as well through shear numbers. Tau for tactical skill, although it won't last long when the big guns show up.

I disagree. I think I would be possible that Naval forces could control the space around a planet. But planetary defences world prevent the ship from bringing their power to bear. If you are familiar with Star wars think the battle of Hoth. The rebels had air superiority but not space superiority.

Ummm thats not how it works... Where will these fighters hide if their airbases are gonna be under constant attack from the navy? How are the fighters gonna even get back to their air bases without being under constant fire? You have either won or lost air supremacy within days of a battle. Once you have lost it its pretty much gone unless something amazing happens. Ground defences have never stopped air superiority. If your enemy is above you all the time your supplies will always be under attack, your reinforcements will always be under attack and your front line will always be under attack. Unless you have an amzing strategy like the vietnamese did or something you will be fighting a loosing battle.

Zookie wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Air superiority is only possible when you hold orbital superiority lest the enemy blow you out of the sky. So, Necrons followed by the Imperium. Orks as well through shear numbers. Tau for tactical skill, although it won't last long when the big guns show up.

I disagree. I think I would be possible that Naval forces could control the space around a planet. But planetary defences world prevent the ship from bringing their power to bear. If you are familiar with Star wars think the battle of Hoth. The rebels had air superiority but not space superiority.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Eldar have the most agile fighters.

Imperium has the toughest fighters

Tau well trained pilot, advanced sensors, and good tactics

Orks have weakest fliers. But they have a lot

Necrons have the best space ships

Fixed it.

-.-
Yes Because tau have the best everything....

Mate. You do realize the tau are not the most advanced race? The Eldar and Necrons win at that. The Eldar have better skills and they have had centuries to perfect their art. They have no other will but to serve the Craftworld, they move with specific purposes, they fight together as one. The tau are still young and do not have the capacity to do what an eldar could do.

Just face it, the Tau have been some of the best experts at Air Superiority in the fluff since they came out as a race, regardless of how "cool" is is to hate them. As long as they don't have to worry about superiority in orbit, they are very hard to match. They don't even have Titans, as they prefer to fulfill the same function with aircraft. Aircraft used to be "their thing", but it's not something that can sell models (especially expensive ones) for them outside of Epic 40K, so thanks to GW they suddenly got all their crazy OP stuff in 6th edition.

I think that Eldar would be next in line, hampered only by getting the aircraft to the battlezone. The Webway is far too small, and it is rare for them to establish such orbital control that they can just send fighters down to the surface. But when they can, it shows that properly applied advanced technology can perform as well as superior numbers.

I don't count Necrons as they only suddenly have cool flyers simply for their place in the 6th edition flyer craze. Before that they had nothing between orbit and the ground, because they simply don't need such clunky things when they can simply teleport back and forth.

The Imperium is good as air superiority simply because humanity has to be the good guys. Lightnings, Marauders and Thunderbolts are very cool, but normally they don't hold a candle to Tau or Eldar flyers.

Situationally, Tyranids are the overall masters, as they can simply fill the skies with organisms -you can never have enough machines and weaponry to kill them all.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
How about normal eldar, with their cloacking shields they are very hard to shoot down

Eldar almost always fight in small hit and run groups. So although they kick butt they probably never hold superior anything. They just deal out the pain then disappear. Then strike somewhere else annoying. Including their aircraft. They are by far the most annoying kind of enemy to fight.

Or that one time they directed a tyranid hive fleet into enemies and then just vanished.

Eldrad is such a jerk.

True. Eldar have air power, but not superiority. They wouldn't have the resources to be the masters over a battlezone, their flyers are better at the hit and run, like the rest of their forces.

Tau doctrine doesn't utilise air-to-air combatants in a big way, though.

Their only anti-air weapons are the Barracuda (a tiny interceptor) and the Skyray Missile Defence Gunship. This is then supplemented by Broadside heavy rail rifles with the skyfire wargear.

The Tau have a very strange relationship with airpower and ground forces. They seem to be of the opinion that airpower is only to be used in support of ground forces - and that anti-air is something to equip ground forces with. That's why their codex fliers are a bomber (suns shark) and a ground attack craft (razor shark). The Manta is a mobile field base, the Tiger Shark is designated as a bomber and the AX-1-0 is a dedicated ground attack craft that, because of the same rules fluke that means Vendettas are excellent anti-air despite being clearly intended as tank-hunting air-to-ground craft, can blast most enemy fliers out of the sky if it can point at them.

Necrons needed aircraft to maintain air superiority, otherwise they'd suffer from being bombed the schist out of.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Just face it, the Tau have been some of the best experts at Air Superiority in the fluff since they came out as a race, regardless of how "cool" is is to hate them. As long as they don't have to worry about superiority in orbit, they are very hard to match. They don't even have Titans, as they prefer to fulfill the same function with aircraft. Aircraft used to be "their thing", but it's not something that can sell models (especially expensive ones) for them outside of Epic 40K, so thanks to GW they suddenly got all their crazy OP stuff in 6th edition.

I think that Eldar would be next in line, hampered only by getting the aircraft to the battlezone. The Webway is far too small, and it is rare for them to establish such orbital control that they can just send fighters down to the surface. But when they can, it shows that properly applied advanced technology can perform as well as superior numbers.

I don't count Necrons as they only suddenly have cool flyers simply for their place in the 6th edition flyer craze. Before that they had nothing between orbit and the ground, because they simply don't need such clunky things when they can simply teleport back and forth.

The Imperium is good as air superiority simply because humanity has to be the good guys. Lightnings, Marauders and Thunderbolts are very cool, but normally they don't hold a candle to Tau or Eldar flyers.

Situationally, Tyranids are the overall masters, as they can simply fill the skies with organisms -you can never have enough machines and weaponry to kill them all.

Fat use having awesome fliers without a navy. Once the navy comes those aircraft are useless. Also Tau stuff all seem to be drop troops to me, not fighter craft.

I think that Eldar would be next in line, hampered only by getting the aircraft to the battlezone. The Webway is far too small, and it is rare for them to establish such orbital control that they can just send fighters down to the surface. But when they can, it shows that properly applied advanced technology can perform as well as superior numbers.

The webway may be too small in some backwaters locations for fighter-craft. In other more stable arteries entire battle-groups of spacecraft (or even craftworlds) can manage to squeeze through. If it was exceedingly rare to get a single fighter through a webway portal than you would certainly -never- see a wraithknight or space-ship at all.

I think Eldar (and Dark Eldar) are actually excellent contenders for achieving air superiority not only because of their superior dog-fighter craft, but rather because they never play fair. They always fight dirty and underhanded. If they can take out the fields full of aircraft before they get in the air, then there is no battle to even be had.

I think all races are capable of claiming air superiority though. Each is competent and relentless in their own way.

 Swastakowey wrote:

Zookie wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Air superiority is only possible when you hold orbital superiority lest the enemy blow you out of the sky. So, Necrons followed by the Imperium. Orks as well through shear numbers. Tau for tactical skill, although it won't last long when the big guns show up.

I disagree. I think I would be possible that Naval forces could control the space around a planet. But planetary defences world prevent the ship from bringing their power to bear. If you are familiar with Star wars think the battle of Hoth. The rebels had air superiority but not space superiority.

Ummm thats not how it works... Where will these fighters hide if their airbases are gonna be under constant attack from the navy? How are the fighters gonna even get back to their air bases without being under constant fire? You have either won or lost air supremacy within days of a battle. Once you have lost it its pretty much gone unless something amazing happens. Ground defences have never stopped air superiority. If your enemy is above you all the time your supplies will always be under attack, your reinforcements will always be under attack and your front line will always be under attack. Unless you have an amzing strategy like the vietnamese did or something you will be fighting a loosing battle.

But ground based defense have stopped naval superiority. Shore battery can stop naval forces from approaching. EMC can jam targeting so air bases cannot located. If space based weaponry cannot locate or hit air bases then they do not bring air superiority.

Fat use having awesome fliers without a navy. Once the navy comes those aircraft are useless.

Yes, exactly what I said. But the Imperial Navy aren't the end-all be-all of the milky way. Just like every single race who have spaceships, if they don't have a superior number in place over the battle, they are useless. Not every battlezone has giant fleets swarming with Imperial battleships over them.

Also Tau stuff all seem to be drop troops to me, not fighter craft.

Only Orcas. There's the two new flyers for 6th edition (which I kinda disregard), both variants of Tigershark, and Barracudas. And then there are Mantas, which granted are orbitals transports, but are also designed to essentially be flying Titans. Probably the most guns packed on-board a flyer of any race, at least of that size.

I'm a big fan of Imperial Flyers, but I have to give a solid nod to the Tau.

The webway may be too small in some backwaters locations for fighter-craft. In other more stable arteries entire battle-groups of spacecraft (or even craftworlds) can manage to squeeze through. If it was exceedingly rare to get a single fighter through a webway portal than you would certainly -never- see a wraithknight or space-ship at all.

Gah. I meant to say planet-side webway portals. Space portals are obviously large enough, but then you have the innate problem of Eldar achieving a stable orbital presence where they are around long enough to send out (and then) retrieve those aircraft.

Battlefleet Solar = Dues Ex Machina.

That is all.

Zookie wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

Zookie wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Air superiority is only possible when you hold orbital superiority lest the enemy blow you out of the sky. So, Necrons followed by the Imperium. Orks as well through shear numbers. Tau for tactical skill, although it won't last long when the big guns show up.

I disagree. I think I would be possible that Naval forces could control the space around a planet. But planetary defences world prevent the ship from bringing their power to bear. If you are familiar with Star wars think the battle of Hoth. The rebels had air superiority but not space superiority.

Ummm thats not how it works... Where will these fighters hide if their airbases are gonna be under constant attack from the navy? How are the fighters gonna even get back to their air bases without being under constant fire? You have either won or lost air supremacy within days of a battle. Once you have lost it its pretty much gone unless something amazing happens. Ground defences have never stopped air superiority. If your enemy is above you all the time your supplies will always be under attack, your reinforcements will always be under attack and your front line will always be under attack. Unless you have an amzing strategy like the vietnamese did or something you will be fighting a loosing battle.

But ground based defense have stopped naval superiority. Shore battery can stop naval forces from approaching. EMC can jam targeting so air bases cannot located. If space based weaponry cannot locate or hit air bases then they do not bring air superiority.

When have they stopped naval superiority? Like ever? Static defense doesnt really work. EMC? So you are telling me nobody could just look at these attack craft, then alert the navy to tell them to watch the aircraft land? Of course the navy has aircraft. Aircraft that will always be kilometres away from battle when not in use.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Fat use having awesome fliers without a navy. Once the navy comes those aircraft are useless.

Yes, exactly what I said. But the Imperial Navy aren't the end-all be-all of the milky way. Just like every single race who have spaceships, if they don't have a superior number in place over the battle, they are useless. Not every battlezone has giant fleets swarming with Imperial battleships over them.

Also Tau stuff all seem to be drop troops to me, not fighter craft.

Only Orcas. There's the two new flyers for 6th edition (which I kinda disregard), both variants of Tigershark, and Barracudas. And then there are Mantas, which granted are orbitals transports, but are also designed to essentially be flying Titans. Probably the most guns packed on-board a flyer of any race, at least of that size.

I'm a big fan of Imperial Flyers, but I have to give a solid nod to the Tau.

No but as i said, no navy in orbit to defend your planet then you have lost the battle. The enemy have to land some how. And yes i think the imperium has the better navy because without their amazing navy then the imperium would not exist.

 Swastakowey wrote:

Zookie wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Air superiority is only possible when you hold orbital superiority lest the enemy blow you out of the sky. So, Necrons followed by the Imperium. Orks as well through shear numbers. Tau for tactical skill, although it won't last long when the big guns show up.

I disagree. I think I would be possible that Naval forces could control the space around a planet. But planetary defences world prevent the ship from bringing their power to bear. If you are familiar with Star wars think the battle of Hoth. The rebels had air superiority but not space superiority.

Ummm thats not how it works... Where will these fighters hide if their airbases are gonna be under constant attack from the navy? How are the fighters gonna even get back to their air bases without being under constant fire? You have either won or lost air supremacy within days of a battle. Once you have lost it its pretty much gone unless something amazing happens. Ground defences have never stopped air superiority. If your enemy is above you all the time your supplies will always be under attack, your reinforcements will always be under attack and your front line will always be under attack. Unless you have an amzing strategy like the vietnamese did or something you will be fighting a loosing battle.

A spaceship doesn't give you unlimited power to attack the surface though, at least not while there are forces on the surface capable of shooting back. If the planet is in range of your ship's lance batteries, then you are probably in range of their defence lasers and those defence lasers will be harder to spot, better protected and benefit from access to abundant power supplies and cooling. If you're in a low orbit, it's even worse, because then kinetic-kill missiles can be launched into your path and you will have a very hard time spotting them and moving to avoid them at the kind of speeds things travel in low orbit.

Basically, in a surface vs. orbit fight, the guys in orbit can be severely limited in how they can approach the planet by an equivalent amount of firepower deployed on the surface. This means that rather than relying on your ships to destroy enemy airbases, it might well be more efficient to drop aircraft or ground troops a considerable distance away from them.

Perfect Organism wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

Zookie wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Air superiority is only possible when you hold orbital superiority lest the enemy blow you out of the sky. So, Necrons followed by the Imperium. Orks as well through shear numbers. Tau for tactical skill, although it won't last long when the big guns show up.

I disagree. I think I would be possible that Naval forces could control the space around a planet. But planetary defences world prevent the ship from bringing their power to bear. If you are familiar with Star wars think the battle of Hoth. The rebels had air superiority but not space superiority.

Ummm thats not how it works... Where will these fighters hide if their airbases are gonna be under constant attack from the navy? How are the fighters gonna even get back to their air bases without being under constant fire? You have either won or lost air supremacy within days of a battle. Once you have lost it its pretty much gone unless something amazing happens. Ground defences have never stopped air superiority. If your enemy is above you all the time your supplies will always be under attack, your reinforcements will always be under attack and your front line will always be under attack. Unless you have an amzing strategy like the vietnamese did or something you will be fighting a loosing battle.

A spaceship doesn't give you unlimited power to attack the surface though, at least not while there are forces on the surface capable of shooting back. If the planet is in range of your ship's lance batteries, then you are probably in range of their defence lasers and those defence lasers will be harder to spot, better protected and benefit from access to abundant power supplies and cooling. If you're in a low orbit, it's even worse, because then kinetic-kill missiles can be launched into your path and you will have a very hard time spotting them and moving to avoid them at the kind of speeds things travel in low orbit.

Basically, in a surface vs. orbit fight, the guys in orbit can be severely limited in how they can approach the planet by an equivalent amount of firepower deployed on the surface. This means that rather than relying on your ships to destroy enemy airbases, it might well be more efficient to drop aircraft or ground troops a considerable distance away from them.

Ground defences deminish in usefulness without naval support. If these defenses had their own navy then yes they would be amazing. As shown in history. Without a supporting navy they are a mere annoyance. If defences are so amazing then all the beach landings that have ever happened would have failed. Simply put they are not enough to win a battle. A navy needs to (along with its air power) claim the air before ground forces can be used effectively. And thats exactly what i am saying.

Also if a missle is coming it would be very easy to spot and destroy.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Zookie wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Air superiority is only possible when you hold orbital superiority lest the enemy blow you out of the sky. So, Necrons followed by the Imperium. Orks as well through shear numbers. Tau for tactical skill, although it won't last long when the big guns show up.

I disagree. I think I would be possible that Naval forces could control the space around a planet. But planetary defences world prevent the ship from bringing their power to bear. If you are familiar with Star wars think the battle of Hoth. The rebels had air superiority but not space superiority.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Eldar have the most agile fighters.

Imperium has the toughest fighters

Tau well trained pilot, advanced sensors, and good tactics

Orks have weakest fliers. But they have a lot

Necrons have the best space ships

Fixed it.

-.-
Yes Because tau have the best everything....

Mate. You do realize the tau are not the most advanced race? The Eldar and Necrons win at that. The Eldar have better skills and they have had centuries to perfect their art. They have no other will but to serve the Craftworld, they move with specific purposes, they fight together as one. The tau are still young and do not have the capacity to do what an eldar could do.

Not the best just not nothing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swastakowey wrote:

Zookie wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

Zookie wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Air superiority is only possible when you hold orbital superiority lest the enemy blow you out of the sky. So, Necrons followed by the Imperium. Orks as well through shear numbers. Tau for tactical skill, although it won't last long when the big guns show up.

I disagree. I think I would be possible that Naval forces could control the space around a planet. But planetary defences world prevent the ship from bringing their power to bear. If you are familiar with Star wars think the battle of Hoth. The rebels had air superiority but not space superiority.

Ummm thats not how it works... Where will these fighters hide if their airbases are gonna be under constant attack from the navy? How are the fighters gonna even get back to their air bases without being under constant fire? You have either won or lost air supremacy within days of a battle. Once you have lost it its pretty much gone unless something amazing happens. Ground defences have never stopped air superiority. If your enemy is above you all the time your supplies will always be under attack, your reinforcements will always be under attack and your front line will always be under attack. Unless you have an amzing strategy like the vietnamese did or something you will be fighting a loosing battle.

But ground based defense have stopped naval superiority. Shore battery can stop naval forces from approaching. EMC can jam targeting so air bases cannot located. If space based weaponry cannot locate or hit air bases then they do not bring air superiority.

When have they stopped naval superiority? Like ever? Static defense doesnt really work. EMC? So you are telling me nobody could just look at these attack craft, then alert the navy to tell them to watch the aircraft land? Of course the navy has aircraft. Aircraft that will always be kilometres away from battle when not in use.

Dardanelles in World War I,Gibraltar has stopped more than a few navies from passing. Singapore was consider unassailable by sea in WWII. As for EMC when you are dealing with distances from ground to orbit visual spotting will not be enough any sensor can be jammed or blinded.

Zookie wrote:
Singapore was consider unassailable by sea in WWII.

Too bad the Japanese were equipped with bicycles. Singapore didn't stand a chance agains those dreaded vehicles

Zookie wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Air superiority is only possible when you hold orbital superiority lest the enemy blow you out of the sky. So, Necrons followed by the Imperium. Orks as well through shear numbers. Tau for tactical skill, although it won't last long when the big guns show up.

I disagree. I think I would be possible that Naval forces could control the space around a planet. But planetary defences world prevent the ship from bringing their power to bear. If you are familiar with Star wars think the battle of Hoth. The rebels had air superiority but not space superiority.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Eldar have the most agile fighters.

Imperium has the toughest fighters

Tau well trained pilot, advanced sensors, and good tactics

Orks have weakest fliers. But they have a lot

Necrons have the best space ships

Fixed it.

The Rebels didn't hold air superiority at Hoth. Vader was willing to simply burn them out with the Executor but held back due to Luke being on the planet, and not wanting him reduced to slag.

And no, you're not going to have air superiority when the enemy holds the orbit, and is capable of raining hell down on your forces while dispatching squadrons of bombers and fighters to run strafes on your supply lines, power, airfields, etc.

Zookie wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Zookie wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Air superiority is only possible when you hold orbital superiority lest the enemy blow you out of the sky. So, Necrons followed by the Imperium. Orks as well through shear numbers. Tau for tactical skill, although it won't last long when the big guns show up.

I disagree. I think I would be possible that Naval forces could control the space around a planet. But planetary defences world prevent the ship from bringing their power to bear. If you are familiar with Star wars think the battle of Hoth. The rebels had air superiority but not space superiority.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Eldar have the most agile fighters.

Imperium has the toughest fighters

Tau well trained pilot, advanced sensors, and good tactics

Orks have weakest fliers. But they have a lot

Necrons have the best space ships

Fixed it.

-.-
Yes Because tau have the best everything....

Mate. You do realize the tau are not the most advanced race? The Eldar and Necrons win at that. The Eldar have better skills and they have had centuries to perfect their art. They have no other will but to serve the Craftworld, they move with specific purposes, they fight together as one. The tau are still young and do not have the capacity to do what an eldar could do.

Not the best just not nothing.

Eldar would win over tau in most cases (eldar have the best air-craft and pilots), but tau do have the advantage in the air against most armies. The true (not those stupid codex flyers) main flyer is light, but cheap, and has a fearsome gun for a flyer (an ion cannon). It's burst cannon have super advanced tracking systems that can auto-correct the aim to take into account other flyers moves, and an armament of seeker missiles and missile pods back those up. The barracuda also excels in air-to-air and dogfights, being instrumental during the Taros campaign. The remora, although not the best at air-to-air, receives some mention by being devilishly hard to hit (or even know where it is), and possessing long barreled burst cannons, seeker missiles, and a markerlight, making them great against light-ish flyers, or even large one with the seeker missiles.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Zookie wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Air superiority is only possible when you hold orbital superiority lest the enemy blow you out of the sky. So, Necrons followed by the Imperium. Orks as well through shear numbers. Tau for tactical skill, although it won't last long when the big guns show up.

I disagree. I think I would be possible that Naval forces could control the space around a planet. But planetary defences world prevent the ship from bringing their power to bear. If you are familiar with Star wars think the battle of Hoth. The rebels had air superiority but not space superiority.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Eldar have the most agile fighters.

Imperium has the toughest fighters

Tau well trained pilot, advanced sensors, and good tactics

Orks have weakest fliers. But they have a lot

Necrons have the best space ships

Fixed it.

The Rebels didn't hold air superiority at Hoth. Vader was willing to simply burn them out with the Executor but held back due to Luke being on the planet, and not wanting him reduced to slag.

And no, you're not going to have air superiority when the enemy holds the orbit, and is capable of raining hell down on your forces while dispatching squadrons of bombers and fighters to run strafes on your supply lines, power, airfields, etc.

The Snow Speeders went unchallenged and the transport faced no threat until they left orbit. Also the scenario you describe could only be done after air superiority has been achieved. Otherwise the bombers would just get shot down before reaching their target. Obtaining orbital supremacy is just the first step. It does not imply air superiority . Next you would need to neutralize planetary defenses so the warships could approach the planet to locate targets and come into weapons range. Then you could knock out air bases and interdict troops.

So as long as planetary defenses can keep warships at a bay the defender will control the sky. A fleet would have to be astronomically huge to provide more assault and fighter craft than a planet could support.

It is situations like this that Space Marines shine. Slip a strike force true a defense net, knock out a few key targets giving the fleet the edge and watch the fireworks.

Zookie wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Zookie wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Air superiority is only possible when you hold orbital superiority lest the enemy blow you out of the sky. So, Necrons followed by the Imperium. Orks as well through shear numbers. Tau for tactical skill, although it won't last long when the big guns show up.

I disagree. I think I would be possible that Naval forces could control the space around a planet. But planetary defences world prevent the ship from bringing their power to bear. If you are familiar with Star wars think the battle of Hoth. The rebels had air superiority but not space superiority.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Eldar have the most agile fighters.

Imperium has the toughest fighters

Tau well trained pilot, advanced sensors, and good tactics

Orks have weakest fliers. But they have a lot

Necrons have the best space ships

Fixed it.

The Rebels didn't hold air superiority at Hoth. Vader was willing to simply burn them out with the Executor but held back due to Luke being on the planet, and not wanting him reduced to slag.

And no, you're not going to have air superiority when the enemy holds the orbit, and is capable of raining hell down on your forces while dispatching squadrons of bombers and fighters to run strafes on your supply lines, power, airfields, etc.

The Snow Speeders went unchallenged and the transport faced no threat until they left orbit. Also the scenario you describe could only be done after air superiority has been achieved. Otherwise the bombers would just get shot down before reaching their target. Obtaining orbital supremacy is just the first step. It does not imply air superiority . Next you would need to neutralize planetary defenses so the warships could approach the planet to locate targets and come into weapons range. Then you could knock out air bases and interdict troops.

So as long as planetary defenses can keep warships at a bay the defender will control the sky. A fleet would have to be astronomically huge to provide more assault and fighter craft than a planet could support.

It is situations like this that Space Marines shine. Slip a strike force true a defense net, knock out a few key targets giving the fleet the edge and watch the fireworks.

Star wars is not the greatest example. I am 100% certain the the HUGE amounts of fighters in that blockade fleet could easily over come that 1 defense cannon and measly amount of ships the rebels had. But for some odd reason they decided not to do it. Why? Because how else would the rebels escape and how else could they show the epic land speeders doing their thing. The series would be dull if the rebels where wiped out because the empire used their brains. And they didnt have air superiority because they where reduced to small windows of flight time suggesting there where breaks in enemy aircraft times etc.

Zookie wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Zookie wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Air superiority is only possible when you hold orbital superiority lest the enemy blow you out of the sky. So, Necrons followed by the Imperium. Orks as well through shear numbers. Tau for tactical skill, although it won't last long when the big guns show up.

I disagree. I think I would be possible that Naval forces could control the space around a planet. But planetary defences world prevent the ship from bringing their power to bear. If you are familiar with Star wars think the battle of Hoth. The rebels had air superiority but not space superiority.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Eldar have the most agile fighters.

Imperium has the toughest fighters

Tau well trained pilot, advanced sensors, and good tactics

Orks have weakest fliers. But they have a lot

Necrons have the best space ships

Fixed it.

The Rebels didn't hold air superiority at Hoth. Vader was willing to simply burn them out with the Executor but held back due to Luke being on the planet, and not wanting him reduced to slag.

And no, you're not going to have air superiority when the enemy holds the orbit, and is capable of raining hell down on your forces while dispatching squadrons of bombers and fighters to run strafes on your supply lines, power, airfields, etc.

The Snow Speeders went unchallenged and the transport faced no threat until they left orbit. Also the scenario you describe could only be done after air superiority has been achieved. Otherwise the bombers would just get shot down before reaching their target. Obtaining orbital supremacy is just the first step. It does not imply air superiority . Next you would need to neutralize planetary defenses so the warships could approach the planet to locate targets and come into weapons range. Then you could knock out air bases and interdict troops.

So as long as planetary defenses can keep warships at a bay the defender will control the sky. A fleet would have to be astronomically huge to provide more assault and fighter craft than a planet could support.

It is situations like this that Space Marines shine. Slip a strike force true a defense net, knock out a few key targets giving the fleet the edge and watch the fireworks.

What? No, the reason why fighters weren't dispatched instantly to blow away landspeeders (which are slugs that would be easily out-maneuvered by TIEs) was due to the large shield protecting the rebel base, which would have required a large bombardment from orbit to break the shield, which would have killed Luke who Vader wanted to take alive. If you paid attention to the movie, you'd know that they even comment on how the whole situation was fethed up (they originally were going to sneak into the system so the Rebels wouldn't raise the shield), IIRC it was Ozzel who charged the fleet into the system and right in front of Hoth, which spooked the Rebels and caused them to throw up the shield. That's why they had to land the AT-ATs behind the shield to slowly walk through it and drop off troops.


(Really, Vader should have taken direct command as he was one of the few actually competent commanders in the Galactic Empire, which was largely comprised of pampered officers from rich families always trying to backstab their way up the rank ladder for more power.)

Trust me I paid attention.

You make my argument for me. It is the same reason you cant use orbital bombardment to achieve air superiority. If you used battleship lance weapons and Vortex missles to take out every airfield (or even most) odds are there would not be much worth talking when to landed on the planet. Also wouldn't a competent defender spread air bases around so a preliminary bombardment could not find them all. Think 2nd strike capable http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_strike

Re: OP

Tau win this easily. The best way to win air superiority isn't dogfighting over the battlefield, it's blowing up aircraft and their bases on the ground. And the Tau make the best use of stealth units behind enemy lines that can find and attack air bases, supply convoys, fuel pipelines, etc. Eldar and DE can match them 1v1, but their much weaker numbers and preference for hit and run attacks make it much harder for them to do enough damage to win air superiority on a planetary scale.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Tau doctrine doesn't utilise air-to-air combatants in a big way, though.

Their only anti-air weapons are the Barracuda (a tiny interceptor) and the Skyray Missile Defence Gunship.

But how many do you really need? If you have an air superiority fighter and a ground-based AA tank, both of them very effective (fluff-wise the Barracuda dominates Imperial fighters 1v1 and the only thing keeping the Imperium in the fight is sheer numbers and a handful of veteran aces, and the Sky Ray is death incarnate to enemy aircraft), then other fighter types would be redundant. The Tau just pick one effective design and spam it as much as possible.

Also, the Tau have the Remora, a nearly-invisible stealth drone fighter with AA burst cannons and seeker missiles. Have fun keeping air superiority when you're cruising along straight and level and the first sign you're under attack is when your first aircraft explode.

 Swastakowey wrote:
As shown in history. Without a supporting navy they are a mere annoyance. If defences are so amazing then all the beach landings that have ever happened would have failed. Simply put they are not enough to win a battle.

Except that real-world argument is based on the real-world inaccuracy, poor range, and limited coverage of shore batteries. Building huge bunkers with battleship-scale guns costs a lot of money so you're going to be limited to covering a few specific locations. That's fine if you have an obvious choke point where the enemy has to go to attack a point target (for example, the base with your main fleet), but it's not very effective at covering hundreds of miles of coastline to block every possible invasion spot. Without ships of your own to threaten the landing the enemy can just land somewhere that your guns aren't covering and attack from a different direction.

Contrast this with 40k defenses where effective gunnery range in space is long enough that a target in low orbit is easy to hit, and a well-placed defense laser can cover the space above an entire continent. Meanwhile that defense laser/missile silo/etc is better protected, supplied with (effectively) infinite ammunition, and has unlimited cooling ability to keep shooting without melting itself. Mount a battleship worth of guns on a continent and you can pretty much turn orbital bombardment into a suicide mission.

Orks and Imperials out of sheer numbers. Superior technology can only get you so far, as the Nazis learned to their cost when facing the Soviets back during the Second World War.

EDIT: Tyranids as well, for the same reasons.

I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if this has already been stated, but orbital superiority would be key except against certain enemies who don't require a base of operations.

If you have the ability to orbitally bombard your enemy, you can systematically destroy all enemy aerial bases, making air superiority only a concern for a brief period of time, or if you have orbital superiority but not such great bombardment ability for any reason but decent dual role atmospheric and void attack craft then you can attack from a vertical position right on top of the enemy air base.

And then there is obviously drop troop regiments... Which can hit the ground fast and hard and take the base.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Obviously, anti orbital ground based weapons are an issue with my scenario.

Orks for sheer numbers and absolute craziness, they sometimes don't even put brakes or landing gears on there airplanes because why would a ork need a break .

 Peregrine wrote:
Re: OP

Tau win this easily. The best way to win air superiority isn't dogfighting over the battlefield, it's blowing up aircraft and their bases on the ground. And the Tau make the best use of stealth units behind enemy lines that can find and attack air bases, supply convoys, fuel pipelines, etc.

That sounds rather like the role of Space Marines too, honestly.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Re: OP

Tau win this easily. The best way to win air superiority isn't dogfighting over the battlefield, it's blowing up aircraft and their bases on the ground. And the Tau make the best use of stealth units behind enemy lines that can find and attack air bases, supply convoys, fuel pipelines, etc.

That sounds rather like the role of Space Marines too, honestly.

No, space marines charge blindly at the enemy with there guns blazing . They don't use cover because the codex tells them not to (making them tactically stupid in large ongoing engagements).

I'd say
Eldar have the best pilots given they train for centuries, and good construction.

Orks have numbers, big guns

Imperium combines quality fighter craft with skilled pilots, and they usually have good numbers as well.

Tau combine high-tech weaponry and sensors in their craft, and I imagine their air force is very professional, but I wouldn't say they best pilots.

Necrons have numbers, high tech, self repair, and pilots who won't black out making pinwheel turns at supersonic speeds (a nice benefit) and have excellent coordination in their attack patterns given the way they operate.

The Tyranids blot out the sun with splattered gargoyles on your winshield and in your engines. The occasional MC gives them some punch.

Really, lets face it.... its a wash. It depends on the battlefield, and the assets present

Yeah Co'tor Shas, like you've actually read the codex astartes to know what it says. The Tau are a puny and insignificant race that would be wiped out at any moment by the Imperium if they cared enough to do it.

 iGuy91 wrote:

Tau combine high-tech weaponry and sensors in their craft, and I imagine their air force is very professional, but I wouldn't say they best pilots.

They are genetically adapted to be better pilots. Their bodies (as their pilots are air caste) have altered to allow them to compensate for higher g's, the kind you would pull in an aerial engagement. Physically their pilots are better at being pilots. Now you can argue training and skill, but in terms of staying awake, avoiding tunnel vision, etc the Tau are simply better.

 6^ wrote:
Yeah Co'tor Shas, like you've actually read the codex astartes to know what it says. The Tau are a puny and insignificant race that would be wiped out at any moment by the Imperium if they cared enough to do it.

It was a joke (if there is a anywhere in my post, assume it is a joke). It would actually take quite a lot to eradicate the Tau, and the Imperium has enough to deal with right now (giant WAAAAAGHs , Abbadons 13th black crusade, Necrons awakening, The Tyranid invasion, ad infinitum).

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:

Tau combine high-tech weaponry and sensors in their craft, and I imagine their air force is very professional, but I wouldn't say they best pilots.

They are genetically adapted to be better pilots. Their bodies (as their pilots are air caste) have altered to allow them to compensate for higher g's, the kind you would pull in an aerial engagement. Physically their pilots are better at being pilots. Now you can argue training and skill, but in terms of staying awake, avoiding tunnel vision, etc the Tau are simply better.

Compared to whom? Humans? Most likely, i'll give you that without arguement, unless the humans have hypothetical cybernetics of some kind which might help their abilites, but we aren't talking about augmented humans, so Tau pilots are probably better than the imperium's
Necrons cant be effected in their flying by g-forces however, and physically, are the best pilots. When it comes down to something like instincts and reflexes, Eldar probably have the best pilots in that regard.

 iGuy91 wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:

Tau combine high-tech weaponry and sensors in their craft, and I imagine their air force is very professional, but I wouldn't say they best pilots.

They are genetically adapted to be better pilots. Their bodies (as their pilots are air caste) have altered to allow them to compensate for higher g's, the kind you would pull in an aerial engagement. Physically their pilots are better at being pilots. Now you can argue training and skill, but in terms of staying awake, avoiding tunnel vision, etc the Tau are simply better.

Compared to whom? Humans? Most likely, i'll give you that without argument, unless the humans have hypothetical cybernetics of some kind
Necrons cant be effected in their flying by g-forces

Tau also sleep less needing 1-3 decs (1.5-3 hours of sleep) over a rotaa (15 hours, the tau day). That is the equivalent of a human sleeping 2.4-4.8 hours of sleep a day. This means that they can stay airborne longer.

 iGuy91 wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:

Tau combine high-tech weaponry and sensors in their craft, and I imagine their air force is very professional, but I wouldn't say they best pilots.

They are genetically adapted to be better pilots. Their bodies (as their pilots are air caste) have altered to allow them to compensate for higher g's, the kind you would pull in an aerial engagement. Physically their pilots are better at being pilots. Now you can argue training and skill, but in terms of staying awake, avoiding tunnel vision, etc the Tau are simply better.

Compared to whom? Humans? Most likely, i'll give you that without arguement, unless the humans have hypothetical cybernetics of some kind which might help their abilites, but we aren't talking about augmented humans, so Tau pilots are probably better than the imperium's
Necrons cant be effected in their flying by g-forces however, and physically, are the best pilots. When it comes down to something like instincts and reflexes, Eldar probably have the best pilots in that regard.

I don't remember where I read this but in the fluff it states Tau pilots tend to be better trained than imperial pilots. But imperial pilots tend to have more experience. I imagine they are comparable in effectiveness.

I like all these post that are flying in the logic of real world with plenty of historical examples proving how incorrect they are.

Zookie wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:

Tau combine high-tech weaponry and sensors in their craft, and I imagine their air force is very professional, but I wouldn't say they best pilots.

They are genetically adapted to be better pilots. Their bodies (as their pilots are air caste) have altered to allow them to compensate for higher g's, the kind you would pull in an aerial engagement. Physically their pilots are better at being pilots. Now you can argue training and skill, but in terms of staying awake, avoiding tunnel vision, etc the Tau are simply better.

Compared to whom? Humans? Most likely, i'll give you that without arguement, unless the humans have hypothetical cybernetics of some kind which might help their abilites, but we aren't talking about augmented humans, so Tau pilots are probably better than the imperium's
Necrons cant be effected in their flying by g-forces however, and physically, are the best pilots. When it comes down to something like instincts and reflexes, Eldar probably have the best pilots in that regard.

I don't remember where I read this but in the fluff it states Tau pilots tend to be better trained than imperial pilots. But imperial pilots tend to have more experience. I imagine they are comparable in effectiveness.

I think that was in one of the forge world books. I'll have to check.

 iGuy91 wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:

Tau combine high-tech weaponry and sensors in their craft, and I imagine their air force is very professional, but I wouldn't say they best pilots.

They are genetically adapted to be better pilots. Their bodies (as their pilots are air caste) have altered to allow them to compensate for higher g's, the kind you would pull in an aerial engagement. Physically their pilots are better at being pilots. Now you can argue training and skill, but in terms of staying awake, avoiding tunnel vision, etc the Tau are simply better.

Compared to whom? Humans? Most likely, i'll give you that without arguement, unless the humans have hypothetical cybernetics of some kind which might help their abilites, but we aren't talking about augmented humans, so Tau pilots are probably better than the imperium's
Necrons cant be effected in their flying by g-forces however, and physically, are the best pilots. When it comes down to something like instincts and reflexes, Eldar probably have the best pilots in that regard.

Compared to say humans, yes. Other than perhaps Necrons and probably Tyranids they are the most genetically adapted to being pilots (air or space combat). Each of the Tau castes is actually different, unlike say historical human based caste systems. Each has genetically adapted itself to it's chosen 'role' in Tau society. Unlike Eldar, Ork, or Human, they have been genetically adapted to fulfill their niche/role in society. An air caste Tau couldn't become an effective Fire Warrior, even if the desire was there (the air caste used to have membranous "wings", as an example, but quickly shed them once powered flight was developed). It lacks the proper physical structure for it. A human female is more likely to be closer to them in terms of ability to process g-force, but it wouldn't be quite the same (females are better able to handle g-forces then men on average, but genetically aren't as good on average at other things).

In some regards the Tau are not completely unlike the Kroot in their ability to genetically alter themselves in a relatively short period of time to meet what they need to (much slower, and it doesn't work the same, but the capacity to selectively alter their physical attributes is there).

Orkz have several advantages
1:They can replace craft without being at specilised conquered worlds(The Imperium would most likely need a forge world to make a single lightning fighter)Also they can get even more fightas when an enemy one is shot down by looting it.
2:They can get aircraft back in the air fasterh this bomma has fallen apart.Pass da burna.You git,you got a few teef?Want to become a flyboy?Bye!
3: they have bomms.Filled with promethium.Against guard.And nids.Owwww...
4:Flakka dakka would (probably)Chew through aircraft with sheer bullets.
5ey is orkz and you Iz not!
Note that they are not THE best.But against tau I'm rooting for da flybosses.If I don't I'll be krumped though...(If anybody has holes in my logic speak now or forever shut yer gob..And believe me there is probably a book of mistakes that can be written about this post)

Tau also sleep less needing 1-3 decs (1.5-3 hours of sleep) over a rotaa (15 hours, the tau day). That is the equivalent of a human sleeping 2.4-4.8 hours of sleep a day. This means that they can stay airborne longer.

True, but a fighter can only take so much abuse, fire so many munitions, and use so much fuel before it returns to base, but that is indeed helpful.
Humans have recaff lol by comparison.

I believe the quote earlier stating that human pilots are more experienced, while Tau pilots have better training, and thus are similarly effective, is probably a apt comparison.
Cant count the eldar out however, their twitch reflexes are second to none, especially compared to humans and Tau, this is well documented in fluff they are by far faster than either, also likely benefitting from psychic assistance?

Yes, Orks sure have an easy time making/fixing their fighters

 Galdos wrote:
I like all these post that are flying in the logic of real world with plenty of historical examples proving how incorrect they are.

Well in the end it is all spit balling. In the end it is not like real world events have any bearing on what can and cannot happen in the made up universe of 40k. Take a deep breath it all just for fun.

Eldar are the best at air superiority, followed by Necrons and then Tau.

Dark Eldar rarely make use of air superiority, so I'd say they do what they do without even needing it...as their raids are so short in a timescale that the response time of enemy air assets is not an issue.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
How about normal eldar, with their cloacking shields they are very hard to shoot down

Eldar almost always fight in small hit and run groups. So although they kick butt they probably never hold superior anything. They just deal out the pain then disappear. Then strike somewhere else annoying. Including their aircraft. They are by far the most annoying kind of enemy to fight.

I'd say the Eldar certainly do have air superiority almost everywhere they go...period. It may not be planet spanning air superiority, but they always have it for the duration of when it is needed.

I would say Imperial Navy or flight squads of IG just by sheer numbers. If you mean technology, well... my bet Dark Eldar.

Based off of both croissants and the IA with the Maynark(sp) dynasty, I don't see any race being able to defeat the necrons in the air, let alone anywhere. Maybe the nids could present a tarpit in air, but I just don't see how the crons wouldn't eventually chew through it.

Since the Craftworld Eldar are written to be incompetent at all levels I immediately dismiss them.

Vulgar wrote:
Based off of both croissants and the IA with the Maynark(sp) dynasty, I don't see any race being able to defeat the necrons in the air, let alone anywhere. Maybe the nids could present a tarpit in air, but I just don't see how the crons wouldn't eventually chew through it.

Since the Craftworld Eldar are written to be incompetent at all levels I immediately dismiss them.

If horse mounted spearmen led by a hun can destroy a necron army in one charge then im sure they are beatable.

 Galdos wrote:
I like all these post that are flying in the logic of real world with plenty of historical examples proving how incorrect they are.

I'm sorry, when was real-world Earth invaded by space alien robo-skeletons, space elves, angry space fungi, or creatures from a Robotech anime?

 Psienesis wrote:

 Galdos wrote:
I like all these post that are flying in the logic of real world with plenty of historical examples proving how incorrect they are.

I'm sorry, when was real-world Earth invaded by space alien robo-skeletons, space elves, angry space fungi, or creatures from a Robotech anime?

Dpesnt mean they are exempt from real world scenarios. If real wolrd earth is invaded by aliens, physics doesnt just dissapear nor do tactics and common sense.

So dont be slowed because its not real.

There hasn't been an argument involving physics, there have been arguments recalling historic military feats.

None of those feats has dealt with an advanced civilization from outer space.

We have never been able to jam or block the targeting auspex of a Lunar-Class battlecruiser because we've never seen one.

We have never tested the effectiveness of our anti-aircraft batteries against a vessel built out of Necrodermis, because we've never faced it.

We've never, ever dealt with a race of alien insects that arrive in numbers so vast that they block out the light of the sun.

 Psienesis wrote:
There hasn't been an argument involving physics, there have been arguments recalling historic military feats.

None of those feats has dealt with an advanced civilization from outer space.

We have never been able to jam or block the targeting auspex of a Lunar-Class battlecruiser because we've never seen one.

We have never tested the effectiveness of our anti-aircraft batteries against a vessel built out of Necrodermis, because we've never faced it.

We've never, ever dealt with a race of alien insects that arrive in numbers so vast that they block out the light of the sun.

Yes but its very safe to assume that if you hold the orbit you hold the airspace. Common sense never changes. Based on what we know we can make assumptions, because thats better than saying "its not real who cares".

Depends on who you have holding space and with what, actually. The Imperium can hold space all they want.... but most battlecruisers are terrible weapons for aerial combat.

 Psienesis wrote:
Depends on who you have holding space and with what, actually. The Imperium can hold space all they want.... but most battlecruisers are terrible weapons for aerial combat.

sigh ok, so a fleet has a planet blockaded. The fleet contains all the usual classes and from the small fighters right up to the larger ones. How on earth (oh sorry for your sake, how in "not real galaxy") is an army meant to run air operations on that planet without having the fleets weapons and own fighter craft come screaming down on them, let alone follow them to their base and destroy them there?

Well, one, a space-faring vessel can usually withstand between 0 and 1 atmospheres of pressure. So if said space-fighter is not also equipped for atmosphereic operations, it cannot enter the atmosphere of the planet.

Two, battleships of 40k races pack feth-off huge guns. Guns that are, time and time again, said to be slow to target, aim and reload after they fire. And while they're "big guns", we are still talking about guns with a barrel measured in meters of diameter. The lances of a battleship are simply too unwieldy to shoot down aircraft.

Three, what ground defenses does the planet have? The Imperium does not usually move to blockade a planet at close range because ground-based defenses are very, very capable of shooting their ships out of the sky. This is, in fact, why the ground and air war exists, to get the IG and the SM onto the planet to take out those Surface-to-Space defense weapons so the Navy can move in close and provide direct support. This is, too, a role that the SM excel at, being able to drop-pod onto the planet, neutralize these guns, and then get picked up when the fleet can move in and deploy en mass.

ETA: Also, with the ESB example used previously, the problem was that the Imperial fleet came out of hyperspace too early. This is why Admiral Ozzel gets Force Choked to death by Vader over a viewscreen.

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, one, a space-faring vessel can usually withstand between 0 and 1 atmospheres of pressure. So if said space-fighter is not also equipped for atmosphereic operations, it cannot enter the atmosphere of the planet.

Two, battleships of 40k races pack feth-off huge guns. Guns that are, time and time again, said to be slow to target, aim and reload after they fire. And while they're "big guns", we are still talking about guns with a barrel measured in meters of diameter. The lances of a battleship are simply too unwieldy to shoot down aircraft.

Three, what ground defenses does the planet have? The Imperium does not usually move to blockade a planet at close range because ground-based defenses are very, very capable of shooting their ships out of the sky. This is, in fact, why the ground and air war exists, to get the IG and the SM onto the planet to take out those Surface-to-Space defense weapons so the Navy can move in close and provide direct support. This is, too, a role that the SM excel at, being able to drop-pod onto the planet, neutralize these guns, and then get picked up when the fleet can move in and deploy en mass.

So a fleet with absolutely nothing to use to enter the atmosphere and or deal damage to the planet below? I doubt it. The ships dont have smaller guns? I am very sure they would. And if you HAVE CONTROL OF THE ORBIT THAT MEANS IT IS YOURS WITHOUT SIGNIFIGANT THREAT. Soldiers dont say they have taken a beach when there are MGs shooting them. Part of taking it means freeing it of danger.

Yes, actually. That is *precisely* how the Imperium works, following the events of the Horus Heresy. The Imperial Navy has NO CAPABILITY of prosecuting a war on a planet's surface. None. Just as the IG has no capability of getting off a planet by themselves. They require the Navy to do that.

And, in military jargon, "taking control" of an area indicates only that active combat operations have ceased. It does not preclude enemy forces still being in the area and combat-capable. Hence one of Murphy's Laws of Combat: "When you have established control of an area, do not forget to tell the enemy."

Ignoring that for a moment, though, you're trying to have your cake and eat it to. You started out arguing that establishing orbital control was a direct path to establishing air superiority, but now you are saying that you have to establish air superiority before you can establish orbital superiority. You cannot have the argument both ways, bub, you get one or the other.

Can you establish orbital superiority before establishing air superiority? Assuming equally-matched opponents, no. Control of the anti-orbital defenses of the planet must be achieved first.
Can you establish orbital superiority *after* establishing air superiority? Yes, quite easily.

 Psienesis wrote:
Yes, actually. That is *precisely* how the Imperium works, following the events of the Horus Heresy. The Imperial Navy has NO CAPABILITY of prosecuting a war on a planet's surface. None.

Look at Forge World under imperial navy. You will find ground attack and landing craft.


All Imperial air forces come under the direct command of the Imperial Navy and not the Imperial Guard. These aircraft are able to provide the ground troops with much appreciated aerial support. Imperial Guard commanders are able to contact Lightning Strike Fighters to sweep in and break up enemy armoured formations, or to have the Marauder Bomber eliminate enemy fortifications.

You mean the Lightning, Marauder and the Thunderbolt? Useless (or just suicidal) without ground forces to take out the anti-air defenses first. That's a support operation for the Navy. It's what they do.

ground defences are not counted when talking air superiority. And thats why if you hold the orbit you hold the skies.

If you hold the orbit you obviously have ground forces being deployed. Ground forces work with the navy to take out tough spots. That is only able to be done when air space is held, which can only be done when the orbit is held.

As I already pointed out to you... no you don't.

You don't rule space until you rule enough of the ground that you can keep up with the rotation of the planet to not get your belly shot out of you.

If the air space is not held, then deploying ground forces (or the support aircraft) is often suicidal, especially if going against something that has a lot of air support present.

This is what Space Marines or Elysian Drop-Troops are for. Send them down in small bursts (Strike Cruiser flies up, fires its pods, gets the hell out of there) to take out key installations (air fields, ion cannons, surface-to-space missile batteries, turbolasers, whatever) that will then permit the Navy to move in to deploy the IG, their support vessels, all that crap. Now you can begin to establish orbital superiority, but have by no means established air superiority (yet). This is why Space Marines are often the wedge that makes an opening in the enemy for the regular forces of the IoM to fill and widen.

So you cannot start out claiming air superiority with only orbital superiority, because until you have established air superiority, your orbitals are at risk. If your definition of "superiority" is "under no threat from enemy counter-attack", then you *must* establish both ground and air superiority before you can claim orbital superiority.

 Psienesis wrote:
As I already pointed out to you... no you don't.

You don't rule space until you rule enough of the ground that you can keep up with the rotation of the planet to not get your belly shot out of you.

If the air space is not held, then deploying ground forces (or the support aircraft) is often suicidal, especially if going against something that has a lot of air support present.

This is what Space Marines or Elysian Drop-Troops are for. Send them down in small bursts (Strike Cruiser flies up, fires its pods, gets the hell out of there) to take out key installations (air fields, ion cannons, surface-to-space missile batteries, turbolasers, whatever) that will then permit the Navy to move in to deploy the IG, their support vessels, all that crap. Now you can begin to establish orbital superiority, but have by no means established air superiority (yet). This is why Space Marines are often the wedge that makes an opening in the enemy for the regular forces of the IoM to fill and widen.

So you cannot start out claiming air superiority with only orbital superiority, because until you have established air superiority, your orbitals are at risk. If your definition of "superiority" is "under no threat from enemy counter-attack", then you *must* establish both ground and air superiority before you can claim orbital superiority.

Both of which you can only do once space is held. Space held means nothing can hurt you because its yours and its no longer under threat. So if space is held you have air superiority.

Vulgar wrote:
Based off of both croissants and the IA with the Maynark(sp) dynasty, I don't see any race being able to defeat the necrons in the air, let alone anywhere. Maybe the nids could present a tarpit in air, but I just don't see how the crons wouldn't eventually chew through it.

Since the Craftworld Eldar are written to be incompetent at all levels I immediately dismiss them.

Actually, Eldar are (fluffwise at least, and partly ruleswise) unparalleled masters at air combat, with super fast reflexes, unparalleled skill, and powerful vehicles. Eldar are supposed to be better at what they do than almost any others (barring things like really powerful SM, and stuff like that). The most powerful of the eldar (the phoenix lords) could go toe-to-toe with primachs, greater daemons, ect. and have a exelent chance to win (at least if it isn't in a BL novel in which SMs are individually more powerful than all the phoenix lords combined with the avatar of kaine thrown in for good measure). Eldar have lays been better than all of their equivalents, it's just that there are so few of them.

Abaddon doesn't seem to be having problems kicking ass on Cadia, and yet he does not control space.

 Psienesis wrote:
Abaddon doesn't seem to be having problems kicking ass on Cadia, and yet he does not control space.

(i have not read about this battle nor knew it existed until month or so ago) but if his marines dont mind no air support, food or ammo, let alone reinforcements then yea he is doing fine. really. The soldiers trapped in the stalingrad pocket had nearly no chance of surviving or winning because they no longer had air superiority meaning they couldnt get all the supplies they needed so they starved and surrendered. So how does this abbadon guy manage to get the needed resources to fight a war when his men are cut off?

I'd imagine he has his sorcerers open a rift in the Warp and marches supplies and soldiers off the worlds he has waiting in the Eye of Terror. It is what I would do, if I were Abaddon.

However, GW does not comment on such things, so none of us can really say.

 Psienesis wrote:
I'd imagine he has his sorcerers open a rift in the Warp and marches supplies and soldiers off the worlds he has waiting in the Eye of Terror. It is what I would do, if I were Abaddon.

However, GW does not comment on such things, so none of us can really say.

So back to the topic, that does not mean this guy has air superiority. Why because he has no fleet. But all you proved to me was how lame that story is because it has not been thought out at all.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Vulgar wrote:
Based off of both croissants and the IA with the Maynark(sp) dynasty, I don't see any race being able to defeat the necrons in the air, let alone anywhere. Maybe the nids could present a tarpit in air, but I just don't see how the crons wouldn't eventually chew through it.

Since the Craftworld Eldar are written to be incompetent at all levels I immediately dismiss them.

Actually, Eldar are (fluffwise at least, and partly ruleswise) unparalleled masters at air combat, with super fast reflexes, unparalleled skill, and powerful vehicles. Eldar are supposed to be better at what they do than almost any others (barring things like really powerful SM, and stuff like that). The most powerful of the eldar (the phoenix lords) could go toe-to-toe with primachs, greater daemons, ect. and have a exelent chance to win (at least if it isn't in a BL novel in which SMs are individually more powerful than all the phoenix lords combined with the avatar of kaine thrown in for good measure). Eldar have lays been better than all of their equivalents, it's just that there are so few of them.

Fluffwise they are written to be arrogant and incompetent. They lose almost every battle. While I think this is just really bad writing/strategy on GW's part, it is the trend. On the PL side, I think PL's direct analogue is a chapter master, not a Primarch. I can't think of a single Primarch that would get taken out by a small group of night lords and a dread. We have Primarch's taking titans on and Jain Zar dies to a meltabomb?

There's a discrepancy here, and I think I realize it, the consistent inconsistency of GW's writing . Should someone who can go toe to toe with a greater daemon be killed by basically the thug SM group? I digress, but I still disagree on all counts

Side note : I don't think this is a BL thing, the last eldar codex is basically "we won, and then we failed because of arrogance", over and over. Kinda sad really. You'd expect a 40 million year old civilization to have some form of their gak together, but not the eldar.

Vulgar wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Vulgar wrote:
Based off of both croissants and the IA with the Maynark(sp) dynasty, I don't see any race being able to defeat the necrons in the air, let alone anywhere. Maybe the nids could present a tarpit in air, but I just don't see how the crons wouldn't eventually chew through it.

Since the Craftworld Eldar are written to be incompetent at all levels I immediately dismiss them.

Actually, Eldar are (fluffwise at least, and partly ruleswise) unparalleled masters at air combat, with super fast reflexes, unparalleled skill, and powerful vehicles. Eldar are supposed to be better at what they do than almost any others (barring things like really powerful SM, and stuff like that). The most powerful of the eldar (the phoenix lords) could go toe-to-toe with primachs, greater daemons, ect. and have a exelent chance to win (at least if it isn't in a BL novel in which SMs are individually more powerful than all the phoenix lords combined with the avatar of kaine thrown in for good measure). Eldar have lays been better than all of their equivalents, it's just that there are so few of them.

Fluffwise they are written to be arrogant and incompetent. They lose almost every battle. While I think this is just really bad writing/strategy on GW's part, it is the trend. On the PL side, I think PL's direct analogue is a chapter master, not a Primarch. I can't think of a single Primarch that would get taken out by a small group of night lords and a dread. We have Primarch's taking titans on and Jain Zar dies to a meltabomb?

There's a discrepancy here, and I think I realize it, the consistent inconsistency of GW's writing . Should someone who can go toe to toe with a greater daemon be killed by basically the thug SM group? I digress, but I still disagree on all counts

Side note : I don't think this is a BL thing, the last eldar codex is basically "we won, and then we failed because of arrogance", over and over. Kinda sad really. You'd expect a 40 million year old civilization to have some form of their gak together, but not the eldar.

The eldar are very different and odd. For example the imperium has sent HUGE invasion forces at craft worlds only for them to die so quickly nothing is ever heard from them again. Do some reading on the eldar and you will find what you are saying is not the case. They are buy far the most annoying and competent fighting force in my opinion. But yes they are prone to arrogance which is, and always will be their downfall.

 Psienesis wrote:
You mean the Lightning, Marauder and the Thunderbolt? Useless (or just suicidal) without ground forces to take out the anti-air defenses first. That's a support operation for the Navy. It's what they do.

Valkyries and Vendettas are only seconded to the Imperial Guard. Ultimately they are naval assets.

Eldar win lots of battles.

Thing is about Eldar, it counts as 'winning a battle' if the only Eldar presence involved was a single Ranger sniping out the leader of one of two other armies on the planet, giving them advantage and causing one side to win over the other.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Eldar win lots of battles.

Yes, the Eldar win a lot of battles. It's their precious Avatar which never wins. That fluffy laughingstock is GW's punching bag, used to prove the enemy is badass. Just off the top of my head:

1) Marneus Calgar sucker-punches it.
2) Lorgar 'mercy-kills' it during the Horus Heresy.
3) Fulgrim strangles it during the Horus Heresy.
4) ROFL stomped by Carnifexes at Iyanden.
5) A Blood Raven Librarian pawns it on Kronus, and just to rub salt into the wound, has its remains taken away for study.
6) It gets pawned at least twice by Blood Ravens Commander 'Hair Gel' during the Aurelian Crusades.
7) It gets possessed by a Keeper of Secrets (oh the irony) and used to complete the destruction of Craftworld Kher-Ys.

Did I miss anything?

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Eldar win lots of battles.

Yes, the Eldar win a lot of battles. It's their precious Avatar which never wins. That fluffy laughingstock is GW's punching bag, used to prove the enemy is badass. Just off the top of my head:

1) Marneus Calgar sucker-punches it.
2) Lorgar 'mercy-kills' it during the Horus Heresy.
3) Fulgrim strangles it during the Horus Heresy.
4) ROFL stomped by Carnifexes at Iyanden.
5) A Blood Raven Librarian pawns it on Kronus, and just to rub salt into the wound, has its remains taken away for study.
6) It gets pawned at least twice by Blood Ravens Commander 'Hair gel' during the Aurelian Crusades.
7) It gets possessed by a Keeper of Secrets (oh the irony) and used to complete the destruction of Craftworld Kher-Ys.

Did I miss anything?

To be fair, DOW was crap in general for the fluff and it's best forgotten as soon as possible, lest any other W40K games get 'brilliant' ideas.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Eldar win lots of battles.

Yes, the Eldar win a lot of battles. It's their precious Avatar which never wins. That fluffy laughingstock is GW's punching bag, used to prove the enemy is badass. Just off the top of my head:

1) Marneus Calgar sucker-punches it.
2) Lorgar 'mercy-kills' it during the Horus Heresy.
3) Fulgrim strangles it during the Horus Heresy.
4) ROFL stomped by Carnifexes at Iyanden.
5) A Blood Raven Librarian pawns it on Kronus, and just to rub salt into the wound, has its remains taken away for study.
6) It gets pawned at least twice by Blood Ravens Commander 'Hair gel' during the Aurelian Crusades.
7) It gets possessed by a Keeper of Secrets (oh the irony) and used to complete the destruction of Craftworld Kher-Ys.

Did I miss anything?

To be fair, DOW was crap in general for the fluff and it's best forgotten as soon as possible, lest any other W40K games get 'brilliant' ideas.

Even if we remove the two DoW references, that's still FIVE examples off the top of my head showing the Avatar getting stomped.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
You mean the Lightning, Marauder and the Thunderbolt? Useless (or just suicidal) without ground forces to take out the anti-air defenses first. That's a support operation for the Navy. It's what they do.

Valkyries and Vendettas are only seconded to the Imperial Guard. Ultimately they are naval assets.

The difference between the Valkyrie and other Navy aircraft is that the Valkyrie is planet-bound and gets permanently attached to storm trooper and drop troop regiments.


I would imagine that air superiority is very closely linked to orbital superiority, at least for the Imperium, as most aircraft are deployed from spaceships.

In a fantasy setting it is impossible to tell whether controlling the space around a planet would give control when inside its atmosphere. It's all down the fictional weapons and capabilities at their disposal.

Does the planet posses weapons to keep spaceships at a capable distance? Does the spaceship have weapons or strike craft that can threaten the planets defense systems or themselves create air superiority?

Fictional universe, with fictional solutions.


As to the OPs question, and using fluff as a basis, Tyrannids seem to be the most capable if they are fighting at full hive fleet strength.
They can literally blanket a planet with spores and flyers and direct them all through shared intelligence. Seems like no contest to me.

 Psienesis wrote:
Abaddon doesn't seem to be having problems kicking ass on Cadia, and yet he does not control space.

He didn't control the space lanes, but he did have orbit around Cadia.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Eldar win lots of battles.

Yes, the Eldar win a lot of battles. It's their precious Avatar which never wins. That fluffy laughingstock is GW's punching bag, used to prove the enemy is badass. Just off the top of my head:

1) Marneus Calgar sucker-punches it.
2) Lorgar 'mercy-kills' it during the Horus Heresy.
3) Fulgrim strangles it during the Horus Heresy.
4) ROFL stomped by Carnifexes at Iyanden.
5) A Blood Raven Librarian pawns it on Kronus, and just to rub salt into the wound, has its remains taken away for study.
6) It gets pawned at least twice by Blood Ravens Commander 'Hair Gel' during the Aurelian Crusades.
7) It gets possessed by a Keeper of Secrets (oh the irony) and used to complete the destruction of Craftworld Kher-Ys.

Did I miss anything?

Yeah.DOW 1 first encounter with the avatar."Oh god its a flaming fire demo- oh wait dreadnought got it.Well lets go and kick some pansy butt!"

Da krimson barun wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Eldar win lots of battles.

Yes, the Eldar win a lot of battles. It's their precious Avatar which never wins. That fluffy laughingstock is GW's punching bag, used to prove the enemy is badass. Just off the top of my head:

1) Marneus Calgar sucker-punches it.
2) Lorgar 'mercy-kills' it during the Horus Heresy.
3) Fulgrim strangles it during the Horus Heresy.
4) ROFL stomped by Carnifexes at Iyanden.
5) A Blood Raven Librarian pawns it on Kronus, and just to rub salt into the wound, has its remains taken away for study.
6) It gets pawned at least twice by Blood Ravens Commander 'Hair Gel' during the Aurelian Crusades.
7) It gets possessed by a Keeper of Secrets (oh the irony) and used to complete the destruction of Craftworld Kher-Ys.

Did I miss anything?

Yeah.DOW 1 first encounter with the avatar."Oh god its a flaming fire demo- oh wait dreadnought got it.Well lets go and kick some pansy butt!"

Well to be fair, DOW massacred the fluff.