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Based on the fluff assumption that the sides involved are roughly match which army would be the mostly likely to try for, and succeed, at maintaining air superiority?

My guess would be Tau. Given their military doctrine I would imagine that establishing air superiority would be a high priority and they have the tools to do it.

Tau love air superiority for the mobility it offers.

Space Marines love their drop pods, but they would probably end up with orbital superiority (which is different although closely related).

Tyranids would pretty much just black out the sky with biomorphs and spores.

Really it would be easier to say which factions DON'T want air superiority. Dark Eldar (webway) and Demons (warp travel) are about all that come to mind.

I'll be interested to see where this topic goes. It's a question that appeals to me.

Seeing as that the Dark Eldar have a very large amount of air units (all of their vehicles to be exact), I would say they certainly want to have air superiority.
Orbital superiority would not be important to them as they use the webway, but air superiority would be of paramount importance to the DE.

For strictly atmospheric air superiority, I'd say you are spot on when it comes to the Tau. They love that kind of thing, and they do it very, very well.

However, if we expand it to orbital superiority, the Imperium (IG and Space Marines) come roaring back in into the conversation in a big way.

Well it depends how far its going. The fleet would have to control the space around the planet first. Id think of it like the Pacific war. Where the navies fight simply to have their aircraft carriers control the skies.

The once orbit is secure you have defended your planet.

If you loose orbit then the invaders have complete anything above ground superiority.

Id say the imperium factions would normally have air superiority. Its vital that their supply routes and so on are secure so i cant imagine them winning anything without it.

But against gurilla style fighters (dark eldar) then although they probably never hold true area superiority but instead make air superiority costly.

My vote goes to the imperium.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Seeing as that the Dark Eldar have a very large amount of air units (all of their vehicles to be exact), I would say they certainly want to have air superiority.
Orbital superiority would not be important to them as they use the webway, but air superiority would be of paramount importance to the DE.

That's actually a very good point. I always forget that in the fluff skimmers don't have to stay 5 ft above the dirt at all times. I'm pretty sure the Tau ones are actually capable of being dropped out of aircraft and landing alright at least. Since Dark Eldar transports can deep strike I would imagine they're even more capable.

How about normal eldar, with their cloacking shields they are very hard to shoot down

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
How about normal eldar, with their cloacking shields they are very hard to shoot down

Eldar almost always fight in small hit and run groups. So although they kick butt they probably never hold superior anything. They just deal out the pain then disappear. Then strike somewhere else annoying. Including their aircraft. They are by far the most annoying kind of enemy to fight.

Air and orbital superiority is a fine but important distinction. Though I suspect that all armies would want air superiority some would push for it harder than others. I imagine that Space Marines and SoB probably train to assume they won't have it and IG I think would mirror more of a real world Soviet military doctrine where air superiority was more of a take it or leave it issue.

Eldar I imagine would only pursue limited air superiority (a specific location for a specific amount of time) as they would not commit the numbers for a large air campaign.

It's harder to say with Tyranids and Orks, I doubt either one of them consider air vs ground to be a separate theater of operations. They got to land some time...

When it comes to space superiority I think that is harder to define. The fluff seems to vary about how effective orbital blockades are. I imagine that in most cases orbital, air and ground operations are going on at the same time in most planetary engagements. I imagine that if an Imperial fleet swept into orbital control without neutralizing ground forces it would find itself pretty beat up by ground to orbit weaponry before it could position itself for bombardment. Or it could be just too costly to smash up every habitable planet they fight over.

Tyranid... because if they are there, then there's 90 billion of them there, and more coming in behind those.

Air superiority is only possible when you hold orbital superiority lest the enemy blow you out of the sky. So, Necrons followed by the Imperium. Orks as well through shear numbers. Tau for tactical skill, although it won't last long when the big guns show up.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Air superiority is only possible when you hold orbital superiority lest the enemy blow you out of the sky. So, Necrons followed by the Imperium. Orks as well through shear numbers. Tau for tactical skill, although it won't last long when the big guns show up.

Don't forget Tyranids. It's hard to keep your Valkyrie in the air when the engines are clogged with Gargoyles.

Eldar have the most agile fighters.

Imperium has the toughest fighters

Tau have nothing.

Orks have weakest fliers.

Necrons have the best space ships

 Wyzilla wrote:
Air superiority is only possible when you hold orbital superiority lest the enemy blow you out of the sky. So, Necrons followed by the Imperium. Orks as well through shear numbers. Tau for tactical skill, although it won't last long when the big guns show up.

I disagree. I think I would be possible that Naval forces could control the space around a planet. But planetary defences world prevent the ship from bringing their power to bear. If you are familiar with Star wars think the battle of Hoth. The rebels had air superiority but not space superiority.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Eldar have the most agile fighters.

Imperium has the toughest fighters

Tau well trained pilot, advanced sensors, and good tactics

Orks have weakest fliers. But they have a lot

Necrons have the best space ships

Fixed it.

Orks. It doesn't matter if you have fancy cloaking devices if your outnumbered 10 to 1.

Actually the difference between orbital and air superiority is much less separate than people make it out to be. Take for example the real world spy satellites replacing spy planes. You can accomplish much the same goals in either height from planet and the two are less separate than air vs ground as one can target the other much easier (and in fact where you draw the line is hotly debated).

The difference being that air vehicles are usually easier to produce than space vehicles. In 40K this appears to be largely untrue for the major factions and so the real dividing line between the two would be the height from ground vs the width of the planet where the "air" vehicle can be targeted from significant ranges. This actually makes the rules in the game make more sense as all the "air" power we see in the game has to hug the ground or they would have been involved with the orbital battle as the near orbital support could shoot them from half a planet away if they were a mile in the sky (depending on planet size, probably an overstatement but you get the point).

Necrons have the best orbital and air support period. A fully awakened dynasty will roll through an entire IoM sector without difficulties.

If you even out the numbers then the eldar are the only race capable of contesting them.

The Tau are the least advanced other than orks in terms of air superiority. They have decent ground to air units but their fliers are not a match and their skimmers are not flying vehicles in the fluff. DE and CWE are capable of orbital flight with their skimmers. Tau have much less developed tech and anti grav than eldar and necrons according to the fluff.

The IoM is a weird one. They do seek air superiority but they have a hard time coordinating it properly. Keep in mind that their fights are all imperial navy vehicles and assigned as needed to ground forces.

The only faction that I have not seen concerted efforts to gain and maintain air superiority are SM, SoB, and GK. Each of these forces however traditionally are meant to operate with PDF, IG/Imperial navy, mechanicum, or rogue trader support and so they may depend on these forces to supplement their air superiority past what 1000 total marines can manage (honestly a SM chapter cannot even put a squad in each engagement zone across a planet going solo without support against a planet is hilariously daff).

Zookie wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Air superiority is only possible when you hold orbital superiority lest the enemy blow you out of the sky. So, Necrons followed by the Imperium. Orks as well through shear numbers. Tau for tactical skill, although it won't last long when the big guns show up.

I disagree. I think I would be possible that Naval forces could control the space around a planet. But planetary defences world prevent the ship from bringing their power to bear. If you are familiar with Star wars think the battle of Hoth. The rebels had air superiority but not space superiority.

Ummm thats not how it works... Where will these fighters hide if their airbases are gonna be under constant attack from the navy? How are the fighters gonna even get back to their air bases without being under constant fire? You have either won or lost air supremacy within days of a battle. Once you have lost it its pretty much gone unless something amazing happens. Ground defences have never stopped air superiority. If your enemy is above you all the time your supplies will always be under attack, your reinforcements will always be under attack and your front line will always be under attack. Unless you have an amzing strategy like the vietnamese did or something you will be fighting a loosing battle.

Zookie wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Air superiority is only possible when you hold orbital superiority lest the enemy blow you out of the sky. So, Necrons followed by the Imperium. Orks as well through shear numbers. Tau for tactical skill, although it won't last long when the big guns show up.

I disagree. I think I would be possible that Naval forces could control the space around a planet. But planetary defences world prevent the ship from bringing their power to bear. If you are familiar with Star wars think the battle of Hoth. The rebels had air superiority but not space superiority.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Eldar have the most agile fighters.

Imperium has the toughest fighters

Tau well trained pilot, advanced sensors, and good tactics

Orks have weakest fliers. But they have a lot

Necrons have the best space ships

Fixed it.

-.-
Yes Because tau have the best everything....

Mate. You do realize the tau are not the most advanced race? The Eldar and Necrons win at that. The Eldar have better skills and they have had centuries to perfect their art. They have no other will but to serve the Craftworld, they move with specific purposes, they fight together as one. The tau are still young and do not have the capacity to do what an eldar could do.

Just face it, the Tau have been some of the best experts at Air Superiority in the fluff since they came out as a race, regardless of how "cool" is is to hate them. As long as they don't have to worry about superiority in orbit, they are very hard to match. They don't even have Titans, as they prefer to fulfill the same function with aircraft. Aircraft used to be "their thing", but it's not something that can sell models (especially expensive ones) for them outside of Epic 40K, so thanks to GW they suddenly got all their crazy OP stuff in 6th edition.

I think that Eldar would be next in line, hampered only by getting the aircraft to the battlezone. The Webway is far too small, and it is rare for them to establish such orbital control that they can just send fighters down to the surface. But when they can, it shows that properly applied advanced technology can perform as well as superior numbers.

I don't count Necrons as they only suddenly have cool flyers simply for their place in the 6th edition flyer craze. Before that they had nothing between orbit and the ground, because they simply don't need such clunky things when they can simply teleport back and forth.

The Imperium is good as air superiority simply because humanity has to be the good guys. Lightnings, Marauders and Thunderbolts are very cool, but normally they don't hold a candle to Tau or Eldar flyers.

Situationally, Tyranids are the overall masters, as they can simply fill the skies with organisms -you can never have enough machines and weaponry to kill them all.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
How about normal eldar, with their cloacking shields they are very hard to shoot down

Eldar almost always fight in small hit and run groups. So although they kick butt they probably never hold superior anything. They just deal out the pain then disappear. Then strike somewhere else annoying. Including their aircraft. They are by far the most annoying kind of enemy to fight.

Or that one time they directed a tyranid hive fleet into enemies and then just vanished.

Eldrad is such a jerk.

True. Eldar have air power, but not superiority. They wouldn't have the resources to be the masters over a battlezone, their flyers are better at the hit and run, like the rest of their forces.

Tau doctrine doesn't utilise air-to-air combatants in a big way, though.

Their only anti-air weapons are the Barracuda (a tiny interceptor) and the Skyray Missile Defence Gunship. This is then supplemented by Broadside heavy rail rifles with the skyfire wargear.

The Tau have a very strange relationship with airpower and ground forces. They seem to be of the opinion that airpower is only to be used in support of ground forces - and that anti-air is something to equip ground forces with. That's why their codex fliers are a bomber (suns shark) and a ground attack craft (razor shark). The Manta is a mobile field base, the Tiger Shark is designated as a bomber and the AX-1-0 is a dedicated ground attack craft that, because of the same rules fluke that means Vendettas are excellent anti-air despite being clearly intended as tank-hunting air-to-ground craft, can blast most enemy fliers out of the sky if it can point at them.

Necrons needed aircraft to maintain air superiority, otherwise they'd suffer from being bombed the schist out of.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Just face it, the Tau have been some of the best experts at Air Superiority in the fluff since they came out as a race, regardless of how "cool" is is to hate them. As long as they don't have to worry about superiority in orbit, they are very hard to match. They don't even have Titans, as they prefer to fulfill the same function with aircraft. Aircraft used to be "their thing", but it's not something that can sell models (especially expensive ones) for them outside of Epic 40K, so thanks to GW they suddenly got all their crazy OP stuff in 6th edition.

I think that Eldar would be next in line, hampered only by getting the aircraft to the battlezone. The Webway is far too small, and it is rare for them to establish such orbital control that they can just send fighters down to the surface. But when they can, it shows that properly applied advanced technology can perform as well as superior numbers.

I don't count Necrons as they only suddenly have cool flyers simply for their place in the 6th edition flyer craze. Before that they had nothing between orbit and the ground, because they simply don't need such clunky things when they can simply teleport back and forth.

The Imperium is good as air superiority simply because humanity has to be the good guys. Lightnings, Marauders and Thunderbolts are very cool, but normally they don't hold a candle to Tau or Eldar flyers.

Situationally, Tyranids are the overall masters, as they can simply fill the skies with organisms -you can never have enough machines and weaponry to kill them all.

Fat use having awesome fliers without a navy. Once the navy comes those aircraft are useless. Also Tau stuff all seem to be drop troops to me, not fighter craft.

I think that Eldar would be next in line, hampered only by getting the aircraft to the battlezone. The Webway is far too small, and it is rare for them to establish such orbital control that they can just send fighters down to the surface. But when they can, it shows that properly applied advanced technology can perform as well as superior numbers.

The webway may be too small in some backwaters locations for fighter-craft. In other more stable arteries entire battle-groups of spacecraft (or even craftworlds) can manage to squeeze through. If it was exceedingly rare to get a single fighter through a webway portal than you would certainly -never- see a wraithknight or space-ship at all.

I think Eldar (and Dark Eldar) are actually excellent contenders for achieving air superiority not only because of their superior dog-fighter craft, but rather because they never play fair. They always fight dirty and underhanded. If they can take out the fields full of aircraft before they get in the air, then there is no battle to even be had.

I think all races are capable of claiming air superiority though. Each is competent and relentless in their own way.

 Swastakowey wrote:

Zookie wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Air superiority is only possible when you hold orbital superiority lest the enemy blow you out of the sky. So, Necrons followed by the Imperium. Orks as well through shear numbers. Tau for tactical skill, although it won't last long when the big guns show up.

I disagree. I think I would be possible that Naval forces could control the space around a planet. But planetary defences world prevent the ship from bringing their power to bear. If you are familiar with Star wars think the battle of Hoth. The rebels had air superiority but not space superiority.

Ummm thats not how it works... Where will these fighters hide if their airbases are gonna be under constant attack from the navy? How are the fighters gonna even get back to their air bases without being under constant fire? You have either won or lost air supremacy within days of a battle. Once you have lost it its pretty much gone unless something amazing happens. Ground defences have never stopped air superiority. If your enemy is above you all the time your supplies will always be under attack, your reinforcements will always be under attack and your front line will always be under attack. Unless you have an amzing strategy like the vietnamese did or something you will be fighting a loosing battle.

But ground based defense have stopped naval superiority. Shore battery can stop naval forces from approaching. EMC can jam targeting so air bases cannot located. If space based weaponry cannot locate or hit air bases then they do not bring air superiority.

Fat use having awesome fliers without a navy. Once the navy comes those aircraft are useless.

Yes, exactly what I said. But the Imperial Navy aren't the end-all be-all of the milky way. Just like every single race who have spaceships, if they don't have a superior number in place over the battle, they are useless. Not every battlezone has giant fleets swarming with Imperial battleships over them.

Also Tau stuff all seem to be drop troops to me, not fighter craft.

Only Orcas. There's the two new flyers for 6th edition (which I kinda disregard), both variants of Tigershark, and Barracudas. And then there are Mantas, which granted are orbitals transports, but are also designed to essentially be flying Titans. Probably the most guns packed on-board a flyer of any race, at least of that size.

I'm a big fan of Imperial Flyers, but I have to give a solid nod to the Tau.

The webway may be too small in some backwaters locations for fighter-craft. In other more stable arteries entire battle-groups of spacecraft (or even craftworlds) can manage to squeeze through. If it was exceedingly rare to get a single fighter through a webway portal than you would certainly -never- see a wraithknight or space-ship at all.

Gah. I meant to say planet-side webway portals. Space portals are obviously large enough, but then you have the innate problem of Eldar achieving a stable orbital presence where they are around long enough to send out (and then) retrieve those aircraft.

Battlefleet Solar = Dues Ex Machina.

That is all.

Zookie wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

Zookie wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Air superiority is only possible when you hold orbital superiority lest the enemy blow you out of the sky. So, Necrons followed by the Imperium. Orks as well through shear numbers. Tau for tactical skill, although it won't last long when the big guns show up.

I disagree. I think I would be possible that Naval forces could control the space around a planet. But planetary defences world prevent the ship from bringing their power to bear. If you are familiar with Star wars think the battle of Hoth. The rebels had air superiority but not space superiority.

Ummm thats not how it works... Where will these fighters hide if their airbases are gonna be under constant attack from the navy? How are the fighters gonna even get back to their air bases without being under constant fire? You have either won or lost air supremacy within days of a battle. Once you have lost it its pretty much gone unless something amazing happens. Ground defences have never stopped air superiority. If your enemy is above you all the time your supplies will always be under attack, your reinforcements will always be under attack and your front line will always be under attack. Unless you have an amzing strategy like the vietnamese did or something you will be fighting a loosing battle.

But ground based defense have stopped naval superiority. Shore battery can stop naval forces from approaching. EMC can jam targeting so air bases cannot located. If space based weaponry cannot locate or hit air bases then they do not bring air superiority.

When have they stopped naval superiority? Like ever? Static defense doesnt really work. EMC? So you are telling me nobody could just look at these attack craft, then alert the navy to tell them to watch the aircraft land? Of course the navy has aircraft. Aircraft that will always be kilometres away from battle when not in use.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Fat use having awesome fliers without a navy. Once the navy comes those aircraft are useless.

Yes, exactly what I said. But the Imperial Navy aren't the end-all be-all of the milky way. Just like every single race who have spaceships, if they don't have a superior number in place over the battle, they are useless. Not every battlezone has giant fleets swarming with Imperial battleships over them.

Also Tau stuff all seem to be drop troops to me, not fighter craft.

Only Orcas. There's the two new flyers for 6th edition (which I kinda disregard), both variants of Tigershark, and Barracudas. And then there are Mantas, which granted are orbitals transports, but are also designed to essentially be flying Titans. Probably the most guns packed on-board a flyer of any race, at least of that size.

I'm a big fan of Imperial Flyers, but I have to give a solid nod to the Tau.

No but as i said, no navy in orbit to defend your planet then you have lost the battle. The enemy have to land some how. And yes i think the imperium has the better navy because without their amazing navy then the imperium would not exist.

 Swastakowey wrote:

Zookie wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Air superiority is only possible when you hold orbital superiority lest the enemy blow you out of the sky. So, Necrons followed by the Imperium. Orks as well through shear numbers. Tau for tactical skill, although it won't last long when the big guns show up.

I disagree. I think I would be possible that Naval forces could control the space around a planet. But planetary defences world prevent the ship from bringing their power to bear. If you are familiar with Star wars think the battle of Hoth. The rebels had air superiority but not space superiority.

Ummm thats not how it works... Where will these fighters hide if their airbases are gonna be under constant attack from the navy? How are the fighters gonna even get back to their air bases without being under constant fire? You have either won or lost air supremacy within days of a battle. Once you have lost it its pretty much gone unless something amazing happens. Ground defences have never stopped air superiority. If your enemy is above you all the time your supplies will always be under attack, your reinforcements will always be under attack and your front line will always be under attack. Unless you have an amzing strategy like the vietnamese did or something you will be fighting a loosing battle.

A spaceship doesn't give you unlimited power to attack the surface though, at least not while there are forces on the surface capable of shooting back. If the planet is in range of your ship's lance batteries, then you are probably in range of their defence lasers and those defence lasers will be harder to spot, better protected and benefit from access to abundant power supplies and cooling. If you're in a low orbit, it's even worse, because then kinetic-kill missiles can be launched into your path and you will have a very hard time spotting them and moving to avoid them at the kind of speeds things travel in low orbit.

Basically, in a surface vs. orbit fight, the guys in orbit can be severely limited in how they can approach the planet by an equivalent amount of firepower deployed on the surface. This means that rather than relying on your ships to destroy enemy airbases, it might well be more efficient to drop aircraft or ground troops a considerable distance away from them.

Perfect Organism wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

Zookie wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Air superiority is only possible when you hold orbital superiority lest the enemy blow you out of the sky. So, Necrons followed by the Imperium. Orks as well through shear numbers. Tau for tactical skill, although it won't last long when the big guns show up.

I disagree. I think I would be possible that Naval forces could control the space around a planet. But planetary defences world prevent the ship from bringing their power to bear. If you are familiar with Star wars think the battle of Hoth. The rebels had air superiority but not space superiority.

Ummm thats not how it works... Where will these fighters hide if their airbases are gonna be under constant attack from the navy? How are the fighters gonna even get back to their air bases without being under constant fire? You have either won or lost air supremacy within days of a battle. Once you have lost it its pretty much gone unless something amazing happens. Ground defences have never stopped air superiority. If your enemy is above you all the time your supplies will always be under attack, your reinforcements will always be under attack and your front line will always be under attack. Unless you have an amzing strategy like the vietnamese did or something you will be fighting a loosing battle.

A spaceship doesn't give you unlimited power to attack the surface though, at least not while there are forces on the surface capable of shooting back. If the planet is in range of your ship's lance batteries, then you are probably in range of their defence lasers and those defence lasers will be harder to spot, better protected and benefit from access to abundant power supplies and cooling. If you're in a low orbit, it's even worse, because then kinetic-kill missiles can be launched into your path and you will have a very hard time spotting them and moving to avoid them at the kind of speeds things travel in low orbit.

Basically, in a surface vs. orbit fight, the guys in orbit can be severely limited in how they can approach the planet by an equivalent amount of firepower deployed on the surface. This means that rather than relying on your ships to destroy enemy airbases, it might well be more efficient to drop aircraft or ground troops a considerable distance away from them.

Ground defences deminish in usefulness without naval support. If these defenses had their own navy then yes they would be amazing. As shown in history. Without a supporting navy they are a mere annoyance. If defences are so amazing then all the beach landings that have ever happened would have failed. Simply put they are not enough to win a battle. A navy needs to (along with its air power) claim the air before ground forces can be used effectively. And thats exactly what i am saying.

Also if a missle is coming it would be very easy to spot and destroy.