Yea SMS are really good. They where actually solid in the older dex, in the new one they are just plain better. I honestly don't care about the primarily weapon on broadsides anymore, it is the SMS that seem to do all the work for me anymore against infantry.
Well, hey. At this point it's not even really worth discussing (this meta). Tyranids have almost zero chance against a competitive Tau/Eldar force, just like many armies.
Now I'm more interested in seeing 'Nids play against other armies, like the various MEQ armies,
I don't think that's a very good Nid list to be perfectly honest. the backfield synapse consists of three zoanthropes, which just isn't enough. Also, no Venomthropes, and Genestealers are awful without Broodlords OR the dataslates... This is a min-maxed, optimized Taudar against a Nid list with little toughness and no real focus... I know Blackmoor is a good player, but that list doesn't seem great to me. At 1750, you could fit:
This list is a lot less dependent on reserve rolls (which did screw Blackmoor a bit) and focuses on a brick going up the center. Even if it decides to hold back, those Tervigons are going to be tough as nails near the Bastion. And Taudar lack anti-Bastion, where basically only the Wraithknight has a chance, and that isn't a given at all.
Basically put the Bastion in the center, with one Venom in and one behind (unless there's good LoS blockers elsewhere) and let your 4 ground MCs advance in cover. A buffmander can only affect one unit at a time! Or if playing waiting game, you can secure your half of the table while hopefully targetting troops.
I think it would make a better game than that army did.
This list is a lot less dependent on reserve rolls (which did screw Blackmoor a bit) and focuses on a brick going up the center. Even if it decides to hold back, those Tervigons are going to be tough as nails near the Bastion. And Taudar lack anti-Bastion, where basically only the Wraithknight has a chance, and that isn't a given at all.
Basically put the Bastion in the center, with one Venom in and one behind (unless there's good LoS blockers elsewhere) and let your 4 ground MCs advance in cover. A buffmander can only affect one unit at a time! Or if playing waiting game, you can secure your half of the table while hopefully targetting troops.
I think it would make a better game than that army did.
Why would Reecius target the bastion? The last time I checked Venomthrope only a 5+ save making them easy pickings for smart missiles. Given that Reecius went first in this game he would just kill them turn 1 with smart missiles since they aren't in the bastion yet. Unless of course you put the whole bastion in your deployment zone in that case the taudar just out range and pick away at your army with impunity since you are castling in your own deployment zone.
Even if they get in the bastion I don't think you understand that most of the shooting coming from that studio army that they have been using ignores cover anyway from the guns, and then there is the buff commander.
Also a lot of that shooting doesn't punch 3+ saves anyway, which most likely will be what cover save will be as well. So it doesn't actually matter. The only wraithknight or maybe the ripetide with the HBC that novacharged for the rending profile will care about the cover saves on your MCs the rest don't punch your armor anyway.
This list is a lot less dependent on reserve rolls (which did screw Blackmoor a bit) and focuses on a brick going up the center. Even if it decides to hold back, those Tervigons are going to be tough as nails near the Bastion. And Taudar lack anti-Bastion, where basically only the Wraithknight has a chance, and that isn't a given at all.
Basically put the Bastion in the center, with one Venom in and one behind (unless there's good LoS blockers elsewhere) and let your 4 ground MCs advance in cover. A buffmander can only affect one unit at a time! Or if playing waiting game, you can secure your half of the table while hopefully targetting troops.
I think it would make a better game than that army did.
Why would Reecius target the bastion? The last time I checked Venomthrope only a 5+ save making them easy pickings for smart missiles. Given that Reecius went first in this game he would just kill them turn 1 with smart missiles since they aren't in the bastion yet. Unless of course you put the whole bastion in your deployment zone in that case the taudar just out range and pick away at your army with impunity since you are castling in your own deployment zone.
Even if they get in the bastion I don't think you understand that most of the shooting coming from that studio army that they have been using ignores cover anyway from the guns, and then there is the buff commander.
Also a lot of that shooting doesn't punch 3+ saves anyway, which most likely will be what cover save will be as well. So it doesn't actually matter. The only wraithknight or maybe the ripetide with the HBC that novacharged for the rending profile will care about the cover saves on your MCs the rest don't punch your armor anyway.
The buff commander is one unit. Nothing else in the army will both ignore cover AND 3+/2+ armor saves. So Smart Missiles still take a while to kill an MC. Will they kill gants? Yeah. But if your Beasts last longer With a 2++ in ruins thanks to the Venom) then they can start hitting those Broadsides/Riptides back.
The last two games only seemed close because I made huge mistakes. If I was playing sharp, I would have crushed them both completely. Plus, all three games the Nid player has had to hide most of the game, it isn't fun. =(
Nids are the worst codex I think I have ever read, no joke. I am still waiting to be proven wrong, though.
@Jancoran
I don't think he will ever make it into combat. The only reason we saw him a lot before this was because of Iron Arm and Endurance. That gave him a chance. Now? No way. Plus, he isn't nearly as good in HtH anymore. Forcing your opponent to reroll invul saves was the secret sauce that made him so beastly. Without that and Biomancy, he is dramatically less powerful.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Jifel
If the Jetseer gets Misfortune and/or perfect timing, it;s the same deal. Plus, Marker Lights, too.
Maybe. But if you plan to rely on reserves heavily, you need a Comms relay if you dont take the Swarmlord. At that point you're adding 70 points and wishing you could just add that ability to a Hive Tyrant. And then you think "I can...it's called a Swarmlord, and it gets WAY more than the comms relay gives you". And so on.
So as long as you dont care if he's a flyer, then hey. He can play the same way as the Flyrants did in Jy2's army: behind terrain for large chunks of game, being awesome and then destroying anything that tries to take an objective past the midpoint (unless its name is Mephiston...but maybe even then if he can nerf leadership enough).
I suppose we will see Tyranid tactics grow over time.
Bastion is a MUST for either a Zoey or a Prime with the Norn Crown to best protect a good source of synapse. Once I saw Blackmoor's list I knew this was going to be brutal because once those Zoeys were gone everything else would fall apart. I would probably just drop two Zoeys and add a Bastion w/Comms Relay that way you will more than likely get all of your reserves turn 2.
The game was lost with the dice roll to pick sides. This allowed 2 things to happen:
#1. He go to pick the deployment zone with a 2 story ruin. This meant that he could place his Broadsides up there and my Mawlocs could not touch them. My deployment zone only had a couple of cans that 2 broadsides can stand on and the rest of them would have been lunch..
#2. Reese got to place the odd objective. That means that he has 2 objectives right infront of his castle and that I have to cross the table under all of that firepower to get to them. If I could castle up with the objectives in front of me and he has to come to my side of the table it would have been a different game.
Because of where the objectives were placed I had no choice but to try to overwhelm him on turn #2. If I can fly my 2 Hive Tyrants there and they could shoot 2 units, my Mawlocs could hit 2 units, and I would have my 2 genestealers squads outflank there (I had acute senses as a warlord trait). He can't kill everything and I then try to take out his troops. My plan fell apart when I forgot catalyst on my Hive Tyrant (who would have still been alive) and my bad reserve rolls. If I could have got all of my reserve units in on turn #2 the game would have been different one way or another. The fact that they didn't meant that I had to go to plan B and try for the turn 5 win.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reecius wrote: Or you take a Bastion and put a Zoey or Venom inside and Biodvores on the top?
What is going to stop a Wraithknight or a Riptide from punching it?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jancoran wrote: wierd how bunched up some of that stuff was, knowing the Riptides were running hot.
.
The buff commander is one unit. Nothing else in the army will both ignore cover AND 3+/2+ armor saves. So Smart Missiles still take a while to kill an MC. Will they kill gants? Yeah. But if your Beasts last longer With a 2++ in ruins thanks to the Venom) then they can start hitting those Broadsides/Riptides back.
He has a ton of smart missiles (Nova Charged Riptides). Also the buff commander gives him monster hunter so just one of his Riptides killed my flying Hive Tyrant in one turn. He also has a lot of marker lights so cover was never going to be a factor in this game with or without a Venomthrope.
I don't think that's a very good Nid list to be perfectly honest. the backfield synapse consists of three zoanthropes, which just isn't enough. Also, no Venomthropes, and Genestealers are awful without Broodlords OR the dataslates... This is a min-maxed, optimized Taudar against a Nid list with little toughness and no real focus... I know Blackmoor is a good player, but that list doesn't seem great to me. At 1750, you could fit:
The real important thing about all those batrep of nids vs whatever is how uninteresting they are in comparaison to most other front line gaming batreps (which are the best on the internet btw).
Reecius is basically just shooting, and the nids are just hiding waiting to get lucky and roll 4 reserve turn 2 (like here) or just see an opening to try and snatch and grab an artifact or contest an objective.
Tyranids have officially been demoted from a xenos army to a thief club.
The last two games only seemed close because I made huge mistakes. If I was playing sharp, I would have crushed them both completely. Plus, all three games the Nid player has had to hide most of the game, it isn't fun. =(
Nids are the worst codex I think I have ever read, no joke. I am still waiting to be proven wrong, though.
"RoTides"? C'mon, man!
Still, they were close! I agree with your first paragraph mostly, but seeing Nids face other armies, they don't seem to be the worst codex ever. Unless you mean least interesting... but not worst ever!
I played forrest-spirit-only wood elves in 7th ed fantasy, when daemons reigned supreme and negated all my ward saves. I once got tabled by daemons and only killed 2 models and I didn't think I really did much wrong in the game! So, I think "worst codex ever" is going too far.
It seems to match up fine / be very capable of beating marines, from jy2's bat reps. Maybe it's power level is in line with most of 40k, just not with Tau / Eldar.
I've already commented on the youtube page some of my thoughts on the batrep (which reece quickly addressed, he's on the ball with all this technological stuff!) But i'll re-address and add some here for discussion:
I asked why the mawlocs weren't doing anything in the batrep - as it turns out they simply failed apparently, and mishapped into the corner. My thoughts on this: Looking at the tau side of the table, it was a huge castle of models. If the broadsides were on the top level of a ruin, target something else - take out troops, put some wounds on a buffmander, get near the broadsides to try and assault the following turn...anything. As it stands the taudar would then have to turn and kill the mawloc, which draws shots away from the rest of the army.
Genestealers- Yes, SMS would have killed a unit of them with average rolling sure. But without markerlight support, maybe not. It's all in the dice. And either way, that's shots again not going at your dual flyrants swooping up the field. I still say that even at a potential loss, infiltrating them midfield between BLOS terrain would have been the better choice - it would have also caused TauDar to turtle up more, making more juicy target zones for the mawloc.
Bastion - What's to stop the wraithknight from punching the bastion? He's got to get there first, putting him in assault range. Taking some poison hormagaunts or lash whip/bonesword shrikes and hiding them nearby as counter-assault will make the taudar think twice about assaulting the bastion. Then a zoey can hide in there all day casting warp lance out of the fire port or just dominion to give a wide synapse bubble for the home zones. Yes the wraith cannons could shoot the bastion and potentially take it out, but that's again shots not going towards synapse creatures. Edit - I know Blackmoor DIDN'T take a bastion, but he could have dropped 2 of the zoeys and done so with a comm's relay. the biovores could have hid behind it and lobbed spore mines.
Nids are going to lose models in every game - it's just a matter of making the enemy choose WHICH models to kill and then using the others to your best benefit. They're certainly not easy to play (though they really haven't been, since tau and eldar hit the meta, even with Biomancy) but they have tools that can compete.
I'll be getting in some more games in the next few weeks than i had been here locally (West Virginia, woo!). If i can manage i'll try to post a batrep or two up here on dakka for others to pick apart and scrutinize. I know an Eldar player who almost always beats me with his DE/Eldar...Maybe i'll poke the bear and see how it goes.
The 11 Termagants + 13 Devilgants are actually 1 big, mixed unit.
Ok thanks, in the video breakdown they were listed as seperate enteries
I still think horde is the only way to run against tau. They have amazing shooting yes, so you need to make their shots less point efficient by using cheap bodies. I think a hormagaunt tide might have merit with proper support.
tetrisphreak wrote: I've already commented on the youtube page some of my thoughts on the batrep (which reece quickly addressed, he's on the ball with all this technological stuff!) But i'll re-address and add some here for discussion:
I asked why the mawlocs weren't doing anything in the batrep - as it turns out they simply failed apparently, and mishapped into the corner. My thoughts on this: Looking at the tau side of the table, it was a huge castle of models. If the broadsides were on the top level of a ruin, target something else - take out troops, put some wounds on a buffmander, get near the broadsides to try and assault the following turn...anything. As it stands the taudar would then have to turn and kill the mawloc, which draws shots away from the rest of the army.
My first thought was to kill his troops with the Mawlocs, but he was really spread out so I might have gotten 2-3 fire warriors even if I managed to roll a hit. Remember that you only hit a third of the time with them. Then if it hit something or not most of the time it will be placed on the table where his fire warriors will make quick work of them. I think you are underestimating how hit-or-miss the Mawlocs are. So I placed them in my corner of the board and burrowed them on turn #4 for a turn 5 win.
Genestealers- Yes, SMS would have killed a unit of them with average rolling sure. But without markerlight support, maybe not. It's all in the dice. And either way, that's shots again not going at your dual flyrants swooping up the field. I still say that even at a potential loss, infiltrating them midfield between BLOS terrain would have been the better choice - it would have also caused TauDar to turtle up more, making more juicy target zones for the mawloc.
He can kill infiltrating genestealers without working up a sweat. Remember he went first and had no other targets turn #1.
Bastion - What's to stop the wraithknight from punching the bastion? He's got to get there first, putting him in assault range. Taking some poison hormagaunts or lash whip/bonesword shrikes and hiding them nearby as counter-assault will make the taudar think twice about assaulting the bastion. Then a zoey can hide in there all day casting warp lance out of the fire port or just dominion to give a wide synapse bubble for the home zones. Yes the wraith cannons could shoot the bastion and potentially take it out, but that's again shots not going towards synapse creatures. Edit - I know Blackmoor DIDN'T take a bastion, but he could have dropped 2 of the zoeys and done so with a comm's relay. the biovores could have hid behind it and lobbed spore mines.
Here is an equation for you bastion lovers: Wraithknight+Buffmander=2 shots strength 10+Tankhunter+Ignore Cover (Guide from Farseer)
That said, I am still thinking about adding bastion with a comms relay for the other armies.
Here is an equation for you bastion lovers: Wraithknight+Buffmander=2 shots strength 10+Tankhunter+Ignore Cover (Guide from Farseer)
That said, I am still thinking about adding bastion with a comms relay for the other armies.
Sorry, can't happen. Buffmander cannot join the WK because he is a unit of 1.
What about the Riptide with the Ion Cannon then? I think you can Nova charge it to strength 9 ordinance. That means that you have 2 rolls to pen with a re-rolls with tank hunter (and still shots from the wraithknight)
Buffmander can`t join a wraithknight, and if the wraithknight shoots the bastion, that is great. Two less S10 guns with chance of instant killing your MC`s. Nids love the bastion. They don`t even have to start inside it.
While I love seeing alternative armies, I don`t think this particular nid army is good enough for this level of competitive play.
Reecius wrote: Give Blackmoor a break, fellas! He tries his best. Plus, there were like 10 people watching the game, too, it is easy to make mistakes under pressure.
Stealers would have gotten killed by SMS first turn had they infiltrated.
It's a brutal match-up, but not just Taudar. Nids will struggle BADLY against:
Tau
Eldar
Space Wolves
Dark Eldar
Space Marines
Heldrakes
Grey Knights
Those armies just mulch Nids, bad. We've tried a lot of them and it's rough.
Then be a man and give all Tyranid players +250pts at each tourney you run starting with the LVO. You have said yourself it is the worst codex ever written. Time to legislate the Tyranid Players Disability Act of 2014 and give them more points.
Let's assume It's been determined that the new nid book is grossly underpowered. Ok, that sucks but what else can nid players do? I suggest a series of batreps featuring
Space Wolves
Dark Eldar
Space Marines
Heldrakes
Grey Knights
Vs the studio TauDar list and see how well they do. Maybe isn't the problem that nids don't meet the bar -- perhaps taudar simply set the bar too high...
Lol, be a man? Haha, that is a bit much on the inflammatory language scale, but, I agree with you.
It is too late to do anything for LVO, that is a week away. We're going to let Nid players use the Old or New dex this year though, which will help.
I have joked about giving all Nid players a free, out of FoC chart Tyranid Prime with Norn Crown to help level the playing field or to just ignore Instinctive Behavior all together. Synapse grants fearless or does nothing at all.
I think either of those changes will help a lot.
@Tetrisphreak
I agree Taudar is bananas. No question. The entire point of this experiment was to see if Nids had any chance against ANY army. Not just Taudar. I just threw in the $100 challenge to spice things up and make it more exciting.
So far, Nids haven't managed to win any fights against any army unless the opponent had a very soft list and made a lot of mistakes. Even then, it is a struggle.
We would pit the studio Taudar agasint the other armies as learning how to beat Taudar is a valuable bit of info, but we will only have it for another week and a half! Haha, it will belong to someone else at LVO after we raffle it off.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Blackmoor
We tried Nids vs. Dark Eldar, Frankie tabled them turn 2!
They suck against so many armies, Wolves, Dark Eldar, Space Marines, Eldar, Tau, etc.
I think it's time to do what Pokemon does and make Tiered levels of competitiveness for units... Either way, there's going to have to be some major TO homebrew rules to make this game not reliant on two armies always winning.
Even IF tyranids won this match, would it really be a win? I mean, all they did was sit back and pray to the hive mind that everything would work out perfectly on turn 5. That doesn't seem very fun to me at all.
jy2 wrote: Unless, of course, he targets the synapse.
That's why I highly recommend the bastion. Don't let Tau kill off your synapse with SMS ripple-fire.
Only if you build the rest of your list poorly. A Norn crown prime that hops from unit to unit is probably nids most reliable synapse.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As far as the bastion, I am starting to think its not worth it. It soaks up three slots and costs 170 minimum (venom, zoan, bastion = 2 elite + fortification) and I don't think it's that hard to counter once familiar with it. EVERY TAC army I think that's worth its salt has some form of barrage or ignores LOS unit OR has a solid form of AT to drop the tower turn 2. nailing 3 slots worth of linchpn units that total 170 and are soft for FB makes it to wonky to base a list on IMO. Heck I'd rather see an aegis plus venoms and 6-9 biovores. Nids need to force the enemy to ground early for the tide to hit.
jy2 wrote: Unless, of course, he targets the synapse.
That's why I highly recommend the bastion. Don't let Tau kill off your synapse with SMS ripple-fire.
Only if you build the rest of your list poorly. A Norn crown prime that hops from unit to unit is probably nids most reliable synapse.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As far as the bastion, I am starting to think its not worth it. It soaks up three slots and costs 170 minimum (venom, zoan, bastion = 2 elite + fortification) and I don't think it's that hard to counter once familiar with it. EVERY TAC army I think is worth its salt has some form of barrage or ignores LOS unit OR has a solid for of AT to drop the tower turn 2. nailing 3 slots worth of linchpn units that total 170 and are soft for FB makes it to wonky to base a list on IMO. Heck I'd rather see an aegis plus venoms and 6-9 biovores. Nids need to force the enemy to ground early for the tide to hit.
I pretty much agree with you. Every game so far everyone has targeted my synapse. Even in games I have won I am normally left with just a Hive Tyrant hiding behind LOS blocking terrain. They made almost everything's leadership so low and the instinctive behavior tables so bad that doing without synapse means that your whole army is crippled. Add to this that the units that have synapse are so few and not that great is a huge problem. I am starting to think that you need a Tyranid Prime.
I am also not sold on a bastion, but I see that it can work. I played one with my Eldar (before the new codex) and it was destroyed more often than not.
You know what the reminds me of? The old Vampire Counts rules. ho man. Lose those Vampires and you are in trooooooouble. Though crafty placement and outflankign can keep synapse going as you cross the board.
This is why I think the Tyranid Prime with the Norn Crown is better than just a Zoanthrope in a Bastion. IF the Bastion gets destroyed then your Zoanthrope is flapping out in the wind but the Prime can just quickly join a large unit of Gants and then march up the field. To each his own I have yet to try out my army list so everything im saying is just what I have seen on paper.
Honestly, I think what we are getting out of these reports is two things:
1. Taudar is stupid OP.
2. The nid book is written like trash.
I would like to see a battlereport with, say, an all comers list vs. nids and then that EXACT same list vs. Taudar to test if Nids are really that bad or if Taudar is really unstoppable.
Blackmoor played right into Reecius' hands... holding back the Mawlocs that could have been awesome disruption units... no comms relay... not outflanking with the genestealers. And really you should have rolled FNP for the Flyrant... Reecius said himself in the batrep you gave him a ton of mulligans "because he is an old man"... OMG...Totally played... ROFLMAO !!!
Happygrunt wrote: Honestly, I think what we are getting out of these reports is two things:
1. Taudar is stupid OP.
2. The nid book is written like trash.
I would like to see a battlereport with, say, an all comers list vs. nids and then that EXACT same list vs. Taudar to test if Nids are really that bad or if Taudar is really unstoppable.
Reecius wrote: That's what I'm saying fellas, all Nids should get a free Prime with Norn Crown, lol, out of FoC!
The book is wonky I'll give you that. But really people should take the norn prime as it is. He really isn't overpriced for the book he is written into. People REALLY don't understand how crazy it is to have a mini MCIC in a book with units of MC's and massive waves of fearless swarms.
consider this core:
~170- Norn prime (don't have book)
150- 30 x Horms
150- 30 x Horms
150- 30 x Horms
180- 30 x Gargs
That leaves you with plenty of point still in 1500-1850 for things that buff and support these gribblies.
My theory; people are justifiably denying this because they spent the last 2 editions buying flyrants, tervigons and a million termigants. Now the better unit is the horm IMO, better IB chart even if Crap hits the fan as you'll stay on that objective and WAY more mobile for the cost. Nobody wants to shlef 75-100 gants to now build 75-100 GAUNTS!
Taudar have crazy firepower but giving them juicy targets is just what they want. Make him waste riptides on cheap gribblies while your primes hide out in them. Each riptide needs to kill almost 2 full broods to recoup cost... never gona happen. Wraithknight is even worse. Trouble with all these dual flyrant lists is the same problem. On paper you have 2 great synapse creatures, except they generally never want to be in range of synapse in order to be affective. So they end up hiding baby sitting units. They are also laughably easy to shoot down without biomancy.
I think someone needs to buck the stagnant trend of left over 5th ed units.
Happygrunt wrote: Honestly, I think what we are getting out of these reports is two things:
1. Taudar is stupid OP.
2. The nid book is written like trash.
I would like to see a battlereport with, say, an all comers list vs. nids and then that EXACT same list vs. Taudar to test if Nids are really that bad or if Taudar is really unstoppable.
I wouldn't even classify this particular Taudar list as top tier. It has too many squishy bits in it. Pathfinders, smaller squads of Fire Warriors. I know my Daemons list wouldn't fear this like they would an Ovesa Star, a Jetstar, or a build flipped around to Eldar Primary with a few Serpents to toughen it up.
Reecius wrote: That's what I'm saying fellas, all Nids should get a free Prime with Norn Crown, lol, out of FoC!
The book is wonky I'll give you that. But really people should take the norn prime as it is. He really isn't overpriced for the book he is written into. People REALLY don't understand how crazy it is to have a mini MCIC in a book with units of MC's and massive waves of fearless swarms.
consider this core:
~170- Norn prime (don't have book)
150- 30 x Horms
150- 30 x Horms
150- 30 x Horms
180- 30 x Gargs
That leaves you with plenty of point still in 1500-1850 for things that buff and support these gribblies.
My theory; people are justifiably denying this because they spent the last 2 editions buying flyrants, tervigons and a million termigants. Now the better unit is the horm IMO, better IB chart even if Crap hits the fan as you'll stay on that objective and WAY more mobile for the cost. Nobody wants to shlef 75-100 gants to now build 75-100 GAUNTS!
Taudar have crazy firepower but giving them juicy targets is just what they want. Make him waste riptides on cheap gribblies while your primes hide out in them. Each riptide needs to kill almost 2 full broods to recoup cost... never gona happen. Wraithknight is even worse. Trouble with all these dual flyrant lists is the same problem. On paper you have 2 great synapse creatures, except they generally never want to be in range of synapse in order to be affective. So they end up hiding baby sitting units. They are also laughably easy to shoot down without biomancy.
I think someone needs to buck the stagnant trend of left over 5th ed units.
This is where I don't really understand these horde players who don't do MSU. The proposed broods of 30 horms will take 25 deaths from 5 serpent in a single turn of average shooting. It is even worse from a tau pulse bomb, etc. After 25 casualties you will have trouble just gaining ground from your casualties. After 25 deaths the prime is looking much more exposed. There is also the issue of time constraints (may be a positive to keep the tyranid player on the board as you will never clear 5 turns) and force concentration where that many troops takes up a huge board area.
I am not saying it couldn't work but I think it needs a lot more development as the swarm is not that survivable in modern 40K where cover just doesn't increase survivability like you might want. Venomthropes might help a little (it reduces the SL damage and makes the Tau player burn MLs).
Reecius wrote: That's what I'm saying fellas, all Nids should get a free Prime with Norn Crown, lol, out of FoC!
The book is wonky I'll give you that. But really people should take the norn prime as it is. He really isn't overpriced for the book he is written into. People REALLY don't understand how crazy it is to have a mini MCIC in a book with units of MC's and massive waves of fearless swarms.
consider this core:
~170- Norn prime (don't have book)
150- 30 x Horms
150- 30 x Horms
150- 30 x Horms
180- 30 x Gargs
That leaves you with plenty of point still in 1500-1850 for things that buff and support these gribblies.
My theory; people are justifiably denying this because they spent the last 2 editions buying flyrants, tervigons and a million termigants. Now the better unit is the horm IMO, better IB chart even if Crap hits the fan as you'll stay on that objective and WAY more mobile for the cost. Nobody wants to shlef 75-100 gants to now build 75-100 GAUNTS!
Taudar have crazy firepower but giving them juicy targets is just what they want. Make him waste riptides on cheap gribblies while your primes hide out in them. Each riptide needs to kill almost 2 full broods to recoup cost... never gona happen. Wraithknight is even worse. Trouble with all these dual flyrant lists is the same problem. On paper you have 2 great synapse creatures, except they generally never want to be in range of synapse in order to be affective. So they end up hiding baby sitting units. They are also laughably easy to shoot down without biomancy.
I think someone needs to buck the stagnant trend of left over 5th ed units.
This is where I don't really understand these horde players who don't do MSU. The proposed broods of 30 horms will take 25 deaths from 5 serpent in a single turn of average shooting. It is even worse from a tau pulse bomb, etc. After 25 casualties you will have trouble just gaining ground from your casualties. After 25 deaths the prime is looking much more exposed. There is also the issue of time constraints (may be a positive to keep the tyranid player on the board as you will never clear 5 turns) and force concentration where that many troops takes up a huge board area.
I am not saying it couldn't work but I think it needs a lot more development as the swarm is not that survivable in modern 40K where cover just doesn't increase survivability like you might want. Venomthropes might help a little (it reduces the SL damage and makes the Tau player burn MLs).
Actually it's HILLARIOUS to be called a none MSU horde player since almost all of my armies run MSU. Beauty of certain armies like nids and orks is that they are cheap enough to run multiple LARGE units. Certain races don't do MSU well. They are too cheap and lack high skills and durability which is why so many of these lists have been failing.
I have to laugh at your example btw. No disrespect intended but come on, you basically proved me correct in regard to durability when 5 serpents firing full on can't kill one brood. That's ~750 points just in transports targeting a single150pt brood and failing to wipe it. Further yet that's the MOST efficient ranged tank in the system, period and it still fails.
Beauty of the prime is he will lead from behind and simply join a new unit if it is getting battered. Your also missing the point where its the baseline for list building. You can still bring support units and MC.
Red Corsair wrote: Actually it's HILLARIOUS to be called a none MSU horde player since almost all of my armies run MSU. Beauty of certain armies like nids and orks is that they are cheap enough to run multiple LARGE units. Certain races don't do MSU well. They are too cheap and lack high skills and durability which is why so many of these lists have been failing.
I have to laugh at your example btw. No disrespect intended but come on, you basically proved me correct in regard to durability when 5 serpents firing full on can't kill one brood. That's ~750 points just in transports targeting a single150pt brood and failing to wipe it. Further yet that's the MOST efficient ranged tank in the system, period and it still fails.
Beauty of the prime is he will lead from behind and simply join a new unit if it is getting battered. Your also missing the point where its the baseline for list building. You can still bring support units and MC.
So 800 pts of your army against 600 pts of the opponent's army (it is 600 pts of transports btw). After 4 turns your army would be decimated without being able to to hurt the opposition. This is ignoring the fact that serpent are actually worse than a significant number of other options at killing cheap infantry (say Tau firewarriors with an ethereal). I selected serpent as an example not because they are the most efficient but because they are the most common. The real question is how much will you bunch up so that you can actually move forward past your casualties? Admittedly if you are lucky your opponent didn't take any blast weapons and you can afford to do this but if they did then you are probably looking at 3-4 turns of just trying to get into change range as the opponent shoots your front line of models off the board each time. I think you will need to make us a batrep to prove your idea can work.
WS with holos is 135 so 675 minimum, with canons your well over 700 so I have no idea where you are getting 600,THEN there's the troop tax you seen to like to ignore. Cheapest way to grab 5 WS is DA units that 75x5=375 +675= 1050.
So in reality it's MUCH more expensive. If you can't fallow that then I'm not going to waste my time explaining it further. It's also not killing 800 points of an army. As you illustrated an entire turns shooting can't even finish a single brood which with any cover plus catalyst reduces your casualty number even more, but I humored you and ignored the fact that only half the WS output ignores cover.
Way to be cheeky but your the one calling my ideas spank so maybe you can put the time in to discredit it or move along and ignore me. At least I am looking for a solution in different places.
Tyranids seem to struggle against Guard as well, as Guard is able to match nids model for model and if Guard is min/maxed correctly can put out an insane number of shots. Literally rolling buckets of dice.
Reecius wrote: That's what I'm saying fellas, all Nids should get a free Prime with Norn Crown, lol, out of FoC!
The book is wonky I'll give you that. But really people should take the norn prime as it is. He really isn't overpriced for the book he is written into. People REALLY don't understand how crazy it is to have a mini MCIC in a book with units of MC's and massive waves of fearless swarms.
consider this core:
~170- Norn prime (don't have book)
150- 30 x Horms
150- 30 x Horms
150- 30 x Horms
180- 30 x Gargs
That leaves you with plenty of point still in 1500-1850 for things that buff and support these gribblies.
My theory; people are justifiably denying this because they spent the last 2 editions buying flyrants, tervigons and a million termigants. Now the better unit is the horm IMO, better IB chart even if Crap hits the fan as you'll stay on that objective and WAY more mobile for the cost. Nobody wants to shlef 75-100 gants to now build 75-100 GAUNTS!
Taudar have crazy firepower but giving them juicy targets is just what they want. Make him waste riptides on cheap gribblies while your primes hide out in them. Each riptide needs to kill almost 2 full broods to recoup cost... never gona happen. Wraithknight is even worse. Trouble with all these dual flyrant lists is the same problem. On paper you have 2 great synapse creatures, except they generally never want to be in range of synapse in order to be affective. So they end up hiding baby sitting units. They are also laughably easy to shoot down without biomancy.
I think someone needs to buck the stagnant trend of left over 5th ed units.
This is where I don't really understand these horde players who don't do MSU. The proposed broods of 30 horms will take 25 deaths from 5 serpent in a single turn of average shooting. It is even worse from a tau pulse bomb, etc. After 25 casualties you will have trouble just gaining ground from your casualties. After 25 deaths the prime is looking much more exposed. There is also the issue of time constraints (may be a positive to keep the tyranid player on the board as you will never clear 5 turns) and force concentration where that many troops takes up a huge board area.
I am not saying it couldn't work but I think it needs a lot more development as the swarm is not that survivable in modern 40K where cover just doesn't increase survivability like you might want. Venomthropes might help a little (it reduces the SL damage and makes the Tau player burn MLs).
Actually it's HILLARIOUS to be called a none MSU horde player since almost all of my armies run MSU. Beauty of certain armies like nids and orks is that they are cheap enough to run multiple LARGE units. Certain races don't do MSU well. They are too cheap and lack high skills and durability which is why so many of these lists have been failing.
I have to laugh at your example btw. No disrespect intended but come on, you basically proved me correct in regard to durability when 5 serpents firing full on can't kill one brood. That's ~750 points just in transports targeting a single150pt brood and failing to wipe it. Further yet that's the MOST efficient ranged tank in the system, period and it still fails.
Beauty of the prime is he will lead from behind and simply join a new unit if it is getting battered. Your also missing the point where its the baseline for list building. You can still bring support units and MC.
Meanwhile your Flyrant, Crones, Mawlocs and Biovores pound the rest of his army that is exposed. I would gladly trade that many points to absorb that much firepower.
If you take 5+ serpents you will usually not take holo fields as keeping any one alive becomes less important. Holo fields are also a liability in a mirror match between serpent armies. I also left off the DA as they are pretty efficient at killing your horms. With them the list is wave serpent (120 pts) + 5 Dire Avengers (65 pts) = 185 pts x 5 = 925 pts. With them added in you will spend 2 turns getting there and then the 3rd turn the DA + serpent kill ~50 horms in a single turn of shooting. I ignored the troop tax because they are actually quite good against horms (don't forget they have 18" guns and battle focus to run away each turn).
Also I already gave them a 5+ cover save in my calcs (erroneously in my calc for serpent shield actually). I am sorry, without that 5+ the horms take 30 deaths a turn from the serpents.
I don't think you understand where I am going with this. I think your basic idea might be the way to go. A large number of cheap nid units with an IC to provide synapse. Though I am not sure it might not be better to turn a unit into 30 termi and a tervigon to spawn additional units. The problem I see with this is that you need to be extremely efficient in your AV killing with the rest of your list (crones perhaps). You need to toughen the horms somehow if you expect them to survive to reach the opponent (ADL?, venomthrope?, try for catalyst?, void shields?). Each of the solutions to improve the toughness of nids comes with problems and draw backs. This I believe is the biggest obstacle to overcome with your idea.
I really would like to see how your idea works out. I was not being glib though I probably am cheeky by nature. Therefore a batrep would be nice to demonstrate it.
Happygrunt wrote: Honestly, I think what we are getting out of these reports is two things:
1. Taudar is stupid OP.
2. The nid book is written like trash.
I would like to see a battlereport with, say, an all comers list vs. nids and then that EXACT same list vs. Taudar to test if Nids are really that bad or if Taudar is really unstoppable.
That's pretty much the extent of it. The nid codex is incredibly weak. I can't say definitively that it is the worst codex ever written like someone suggested earlier, but it is the weakest codex I've seen released for 6th. For me the strength of Taudar is largely based on synergy between two powerful codexs. Nids not having access to allies or compensation because... space bugs... is terribly unfair and a blow against any gaming with purpose beyond throwing cubes of plastic. Every battle that I've seen is the same, tyranids find something to stand behind and sit there getting mauled turn after turn, praying for a turn 5 hail mary. It's boring to watch and boring to play. At least against Jy2 there was a bit more pushing, but to a similar end. Reecius has put his money where his mouth is and we can all see the results with a click of a button. I would really enjoy seeing Nids getting stomped by a variety of list once the Taudar are raffled away. Maybe then it will sink in. FYI, I say this as a mainly Nid player with at least 3-4k points of nids painted this year. I've heavily invested in my ability to enjoy nids, so to have people pop up constantly and excuse away the awful book is exceedingly annoying.
Reecius, I really enjoy your reps. Thank you for providing cheap entertainment on my morning commute. Do you think you could switch it up and maybe show people how they fair against other lists in a competitive environment?
We tried Nids vs. Dark Eldar, Frankie tabled them turn 2!
They suck against so many armies, Wolves, Dark Eldar, Space Marines, Eldar, Tau, etc.
DE have flatout been the worst match ups for my bug lists for 5e and 6e. Even the Taudar I have played against don't rape the bugs as bad. Pure Tau Missileside spam is probably next worst. I find under the new dex I have to run 6-7 synapse units at 1850 to 2000 points. I also find a more agressive play style seems to work better.
2000 point list I am tweaking from: (this is mostly and old 3e army brought forward)
HQ 440
Flyrant (dual Sytal, electroshock grub) 210
2 tyrant Guard 100
Prime (Deathspitter 130
Fast 295
5 Shrike 175
3 Raveners (Deathspitters) 120
Heavy 465
Dakkafex 150
ScreamKiller (Spine bank,bioplasma) 145
Exocrine 170
So far things I have found on the list that work surprisingly well: Infiltrating Stealers, does not matter that they can't assault, the unit still forces enemy deployment to deal with it; Raveners are again another surprise in the list, though I have found I need atleast 2or 3 more to make it really effective; Exocrine is really good for what it does; The ScreamKiller is a pretty solid and cheap build if you don't want to shoot fliers, up to 9 total attacks on the charge at S9 and a little over half at AP2.
Reecius wrote: That's what I'm saying fellas, all Nids should get a free Prime with Norn Crown, lol, out of FoC!
The book is wonky I'll give you that. But really people should take the norn prime as it is. He really isn't overpriced for the book he is written into. People REALLY don't understand how crazy it is to have a mini MCIC in a book with units of MC's and massive waves of fearless swarms.
consider this core:
~170- Norn prime (don't have book)
150- 30 x Horms
150- 30 x Horms
150- 30 x Horms
180- 30 x Gargs
That leaves you with plenty of point still in 1500-1850 for things that buff and support these gribblies.
My theory; people are justifiably denying this because they spent the last 2 editions buying flyrants, tervigons and a million termigants. Now the better unit is the horm IMO, better IB chart even if Crap hits the fan as you'll stay on that objective and WAY more mobile for the cost. Nobody wants to shlef 75-100 gants to now build 75-100 GAUNTS!
Taudar have crazy firepower but giving them juicy targets is just what they want. Make him waste riptides on cheap gribblies while your primes hide out in them. Each riptide needs to kill almost 2 full broods to recoup cost... never gona happen. Wraithknight is even worse. Trouble with all these dual flyrant lists is the same problem. On paper you have 2 great synapse creatures, except they generally never want to be in range of synapse in order to be affective. So they end up hiding baby sitting units. They are also laughably easy to shoot down without biomancy.
I think someone needs to buck the stagnant trend of left over 5th ed units.
Yeah, but who wants to play a list like that? Or buy, build and paint a list like that? Haha, have you ever assembled and painted Nids? It sucks. I will never again make another 30 gargs, that was so lame.
Plus, that army doesn't actually kill anything, it just controls the board and dies. That does not sound fun at all to me.
@anonymou5
Hey! hahaha, that list is good, don't be dissin it, son!
Automatically Appended Next Post: @barnowl
Yeah, Venom Spam has always been the bane of Nids.
#1. The first game I have played with Nids in about 8 years was the day before this game.
#2. It was against Dark Eldar and they are by far the worst match up for Nids. Night shields are a night mare, and Mech is no fun when you are strength 3.
#3. I only had about 3 hours of sleep the night before.
#4. This game was right after a 6 hour drive from LA to the Bay Area.
#5. This list was what I threw together. Sometimes you have to play with that army you have, not the army you want.
#1. The first game I have played with Nids in about 8 years was the day before this game.
#2. It was against Dark Eldar and they are by far the worst match up for Nids. Night shields are a night mare, and Mech is no fun when you are strength 3.
#3. I only had about 3 hours of sleep the night before.
#4. This game was right after a 6 hour drive from LA to the Bay Area.
#5. This list was what I threw together. Sometimes you have to play with that army you have, not the army you want.
Hope you caught up on your sleep Blackmoore, lol. In a bit of humor, I wouldn't be surprised if this was a post mirrored by the GW "design team" regarding writing the Tyranid codex... "Sorry everyone, we don't know nids nor do we care-we were just so tired from all of our road trips and stuff. Besides, all we ha to work with was the previous awesome Nid dex and we didn't see anything wrong with it so if it ain't broke don't fix it..."
On a side note, I've found gargoyles to be great tarpit units, blinding venom is great when you actually roll to hit and force a bunch of blind tests. Anyone have any success with infiltrating a large brood of stealers to distract opponent/throw away while rest of the army advances?
A Prime outflanking with 30 devilgaunts could have hurt his backfield somewhat.
I'm still using a Barbed Hierdrule and having great success with a castle Nid Army.
Playing for a turn 5 victory has to be the worst plan out there, unless you're at a tournament , then with the time restrictions I could see it working.
Reecius wrote: That's what I'm saying fellas, all Nids should get a free Prime with Norn Crown, lol, out of FoC!
The book is wonky I'll give you that. But really people should take the norn prime as it is. He really isn't overpriced for the book he is written into. People REALLY don't understand how crazy it is to have a mini MCIC in a book with units of MC's and massive waves of fearless swarms.
consider this core:
~170- Norn prime (don't have book)
150- 30 x Horms
150- 30 x Horms
150- 30 x Horms
180- 30 x Gargs
That leaves you with plenty of point still in 1500-1850 for things that buff and support these gribblies.
My theory; people are justifiably denying this because they spent the last 2 editions buying flyrants, tervigons and a million termigants. Now the better unit is the horm IMO, better IB chart even if Crap hits the fan as you'll stay on that objective and WAY more mobile for the cost. Nobody wants to shlef 75-100 gants to now build 75-100 GAUNTS!
Taudar have crazy firepower but giving them juicy targets is just what they want. Make him waste riptides on cheap gribblies while your primes hide out in them. Each riptide needs to kill almost 2 full broods to recoup cost... never gona happen. Wraithknight is even worse. Trouble with all these dual flyrant lists is the same problem. On paper you have 2 great synapse creatures, except they generally never want to be in range of synapse in order to be affective. So they end up hiding baby sitting units. They are also laughably easy to shoot down without biomancy.
I think someone needs to buck the stagnant trend of left over 5th ed units.
Yeah, but who wants to play a list like that? Or buy, build and paint a list like that? Haha, have you ever assembled and painted Nids? It sucks. I will never again make another 30 gargs, that was so lame.
Plus, that army doesn't actually kill anything, it just controls the board and dies. That does not sound fun at all to me.
@anonymou5
Hey! hahaha, that list is good, don't be dissin it, son!
Automatically Appended Next Post: @barnowl
Yeah, Venom Spam has always been the bane of Nids.
That list just moves, controls and dies to Taudar. Lets be honest most armies do that, I just don't understand why people expected this book which is heavily assault based in 6th edition, to some how out match the 2 most OP shooters in the game right now. Whats the definition of insanity again? (I'm teasing) but that's how yo win at 40k, board control.
Seriously though, if painting gaunts isn't your thing then maybe pass. Its the same thing as horde orks***, some people like painting and playing these builds, and sometimes the meta makes these the best options.
BTW maybe I am biased because with my airbrushes I can batch paint that many gaunts very well using washes and glazes in no time. I actually think its much easier to paint horde nids then guard or orks since they have fewer colors.
I will give you the assembly pain for Gargs though, that's probably why I have yet to see more then 30 in an army Note my example build only has 30
*** PS prediction time. I am sure Orks lose fearless mobs or gain some sort of animosity again. This has been the trend in 6th. Nerfing fearless scorers.
** PS prediction time. I am sure Orks lose fearless mobs or gain some sort of animosity again. This has been the trend in 6th. Nerfing fearless scorers.
Yes they needed to account for the loss of wounds due to losing in close combat.
** PS prediction time. I am sure Orks lose fearless mobs or gain some sort of animosity again. This has been the trend in 6th. Nerfing fearless scorers.
Yes they needed to account for the loss of wounds due to losing in close combat.
Well in some instances the simply moved the unit from troops, I'm looking at you chaos! But yes, that looks like the motivation. Of course that would suggest they have a plan and I don't like to give them that much credit.
#1. The first game I have played with Nids in about 8 years was the day before this game.
#2. It was against Dark Eldar and they are by far the worst match up for Nids. Night shields are a night mare, and Mech is no fun when you are strength 3.
#3. I only had about 3 hours of sleep the night before.
#4. This game was right after a 6 hour drive from LA to the Bay Area.
#5. This list was what I threw together. Sometimes you have to play with that army you have, not the army you want.
Given all of this, this bat rep hardly spells the "death of nids" as for some reason a few folks are making out . There are plenty of bat reps on this page where nids have won. *shrug*
Looking forward to seeing you play them in the future, Blackmoor!
#1. The first game I have played with Nids in about 8 years was the day before this game.
#2. It was against Dark Eldar and they are by far the worst match up for Nids. Night shields are a night mare, and Mech is no fun when you are strength 3.
#3. I only had about 3 hours of sleep the night before.
#4. This game was right after a 6 hour drive from LA to the Bay Area.
#5. This list was what I threw together. Sometimes you have to play with that army you have, not the army you want.
You played the game correctly in spite of all that? Impressive. Sorry if I came off as too harsh in some of my replies, I'm a bit desperate to discover "the way" to play Nids with this codex, which I am sure exists.
Yes, that is true, horde Nids are easier to paint. My paint scheme takes a little longer though, as I layer the carapace. If I didn't, it would go way faster.
DE Venomspam is just an absurd matchup for nids. Might as well not deploy. The only build that could stand up to them was drop spore builds with lots of dakka. And GW took that away.
We tried Nids vs. Dark Eldar, Frankie tabled them turn 2!
They suck against so many armies, Wolves, Dark Eldar, Space Marines, Eldar, Tau, etc.
Why do you think Nids suck against Space Wolves in particular? You're thinking of Longfangspam, Jaws, Lone Wolf monster killers and Runic Weapons, or something else?
Rofl at the Forgewold dig, loved that.
Thank you and Blackmoor for yet another entertaining batrep, even if the game itself was more strategic than epic.
In fairness to the Tyranid players they are playing a new codex and I salute them for taking up the challenge. Blackmoor is taking them to LVO which I respect a lot.
Dozer Blades wrote: In fairness to the Tyranid players they are playing a new codex and I salute them for taking up the challenge. Blackmoor is taking them to LVO which I respect a lot.
In fairness, daemons, tau, eldar, and space marines were winning GTs 30 days after release.
New codex is a poor excuse for the army performing poorly.
Dozer Blades wrote: In fairness to the Tyranid players they are playing a new codex and I salute them for taking up the challenge. Blackmoor is taking them to LVO which I respect a lot.
In fairness, daemons, tau, eldar, and space marines were winning GTs 30 days after release.
New codex is a poor excuse for the army performing poorly.
I'm seeing a lot of (surprisingly) positive outcomes in games where nids are being used - they're winning in the batreps section vs space marines, chaos, etc. Dark eldar/Eldar/Tau just seem to be the hard counter to the book right now - I feel like that's tinting the overall consensus on how good or bad the book is because Taudar is currently the top dog and most commonly seen 'competitive' force right now. In a mixed meta tyranids are doing as well as they should be.
Do i dislike the new IB mechanics, and the overall "drab" feel of the codex? Of course i do. this isn't a white-knight for the Crudd-dex part II. Let's just see where the nids fall at LVO - i'd expect to see top-middle finishers using the new book, but i feel that it will still be TauDar in the top 3 just like at NOVA.
I'm seeing a lot of (surprisingly) positive outcomes in games where nids are being used - they're winning in the batreps section vs space marines, chaos, etc. Dark eldar/Eldar/Tau just seem to be the hard counter to the book right now - I feel like that's tinting the overall consensus on how good or bad the book is because Taudar is currently the top dog and most commonly seen 'competitive' force right now. In a mixed meta tyranids are doing as well as they should be.
Do i dislike the new IB mechanics, and the overall "drab" feel of the codex? Of course i do. this isn't a white-knight for the Crudd-dex part II. Let's just see where the nids fall at LVO - i'd expect to see top-middle finishers using the new book, but i feel that it will still be TauDar in the top 3 just like at NOVA.
Agreed. Tyranids are still good against the majority of the armies out there. There's just a few armies that will give them trouble. It just happens that these armies will give the majority of the armies out there trouble as well. Tyranids are actually quite balanced against most of the armies out there. It's just that the top builds (with the exception of Dark Eldar, which is more of a rock-papers-scissors type of army) are too strong compared to the majority of the armies.
Dozer Blades wrote: I'm looking at LVO as a practical indicator how competitive they are based upon top players like Blackmoor.
There was no Tau or Eldar in top five last year at WGC... Not sure about FoB.
There's actually going to be some very good Tyranid players from the West Coast going. There's Doug (aka WarbossDugg, I believe he's taking bugs) as well as Cooper (aka Lajollagrad), one of the very few Tyranid players to have ever won a GT with his bugs.
And then there's Jay Woodcock from the East Coast.
Too bad Janthkin isn't participating in the 40K Championships with his tyranids.
Dozer Blades wrote: In fairness to the Tyranid players they are playing a new codex and I salute them for taking up the challenge. Blackmoor is taking them to LVO which I respect a lot.
In fairness, daemons, tau, eldar, and space marines were winning GTs 30 days after release.
New codex is a poor excuse for the army performing poorly.
I'm seeing a lot of (surprisingly) positive outcomes in games where nids are being used - they're winning in the batreps section vs space marines, chaos, etc. Dark eldar/Eldar/Tau just seem to be the hard counter to the book right now - I feel like that's tinting the overall consensus on how good or bad the book is because Taudar is currently the top dog and most commonly seen 'competitive' force right now. In a mixed meta tyranids are doing as well as they should be.
Do i dislike the new IB mechanics, and the overall "drab" feel of the codex? Of course i do. this isn't a white-knight for the Crudd-dex part II. Let's just see where the nids fall at LVO - i'd expect to see top-middle finishers using the new book, but i feel that it will still be TauDar in the top 3 just like at NOVA.
Surprisingly positive results? Maybe we aren't reading the same reports. I've seen JY2 club a SM baby seal list and Incontrol do the same to one of Reece's softest lists where he even forgot to use some units. All the reports with evenly matched lists and generals have been tyranid losses.
The thing about meta shifts is tyranids didn't get any new tricks. Their psychic powers are mostly rolled over from the last book and they lost biomancy and telepathy. They lost most of their deployment options and tricks with drop pods and ymgarls going extinct. The result is the counter-tyranid meta will adapt faster than the competitive tyranid lists. Tyranids will never get ahead with a head thumper like seer council, screamer star, serpent spam, etc. foot based assault armies are extremely easy to out play and anyone who's faced a daemon flying circus will giggle at 5 TFMCs without invulns and biomancy.
Jay W is a good friend and writes for my blog occasionally and even placed 3rd at Adepticon with nids a few years ago. I love the dude but I still doubt the army will perform in a field of 200+. In fact, if I were a gambling man I'd gladly bet piles of cash that no nids will make the top 8 champions bracket at LVO. I'd loved to be proved wrong. I have 4,000pts in bugs collecting dust because I find the new book depressing. But if someone can find a way to make them work ill dust them off.
What I have noticed is lots of people who didn't play Nidz in sixth edition are coming back to them now. I understand it's hard for those who've played them in sixth edition to get a handle on the new codex. There's lot of good stuff though.
@Hyv3mynd: You could enjoy them for all the other aspects of the hobby as well. I am not being cheeky here either. I was much more competitive until 6th hit. 6th in general has some horrible rules in regard to competitive play and WAY to many books are left wanting. For me, it's been a time to remodel all my armies and play more unit that I like regardless of how they perform.
And no this doesn't make me a fluff bunny either. I regularly get to the top table still, I just don't expect to beat the EXTREME cheese I generally draw in that round. Because of the expected outcome I enjoy the day much more. If I win, all the better because I did it my way.
And when 7th hits, hopefully things will get better and I will have some outstanding looking armies.
It would be a shame not to see your poor bugs get some hobby love just because they aren't the BBT.
IB was always a problem prior to sixth edition Tervi spam... It can suck more now but it doesn't have to be self defeating. Every army has some weakness. Most of the bitching is related to losing the broken cheese they had... EZ win mode is gone... Doesn't mean they suck just because it's hard to beat Tau and Eldar. They should do well versus daemons.
All valid points but when people come here to read about Reece, blackmoor, and jy2, it's because of their competitive tournament resume and bias. While respectable hobbyists, nobody's reading their reports for golden daemon paint jobs or fully converted armies. We're talking top bracket GT players using competitive lists against their peers.
We can say "yeah but hobby" or "yeah but anything other than taudar" but none of that helps people who actually want a codex hat stands a chance in a 200+ player GT.
hyv3mynd wrote: All valid points but when people come here to read about Reece, blackmoor, and jy2, it's because of their competitive tournament resume and bias. While respectable hobbyists, nobody's reading their reports for golden daemon paint jobs or fully converted armies. We're talking top bracket GT players using competitive lists against their peers.
We can say "yeah but hobby" or "yeah but anything other than taudar" but none of that helps people who actually want a codex hat stands a chance in a 200+ player GT.
Like I said I am waiting to see how they do at the LVO. People have won GTs without bringing cheesy armies. A lot of people respect Reecius for how he did with footdar back when they were considered the suck. Winning with Taudar doesn't seem like much of an accomplishment to me.
hyv3mynd wrote: All valid points but when people come here to read about Reece, blackmoor, and jy2, it's because of their competitive tournament resume and bias. While respectable hobbyists, nobody's reading their reports for golden daemon paint jobs or fully converted armies. We're talking top bracket GT players using competitive lists against their peers.
We can say "yeah but hobby" or "yeah but anything other than taudar" but none of that helps people who actually want a codex hat stands a chance in a 200+ player GT.
I would trust my current Nid build in a GT. It would be the army I would take to the next one if I could attend. This coming from the guy who regularly placed in the top 3 at the GT's I attended.
and I didn't think I really did much wrong in the game! So, I think "worst codex ever" is going too far.
