Warhammer 40K Video Bat Rep Taudar vs Tyranids (Blackmoor vs Reecius)

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**AesSedai**

Happygrunt wrote:
Honestly, I think what we are getting out of these reports is two things:

1. Taudar is stupid OP.

2. The nid book is written like trash.

I would like to see a battlereport with, say, an all comers list vs. nids and then that EXACT same list vs. Taudar to test if Nids are really that bad or if Taudar is really unstoppable.

That's pretty much the extent of it. The nid codex is incredibly weak. I can't say definitively that it is the worst codex ever written like someone suggested earlier, but it is the weakest codex I've seen released for 6th. For me the strength of Taudar is largely based on synergy between two powerful codexs. Nids not having access to allies or compensation because... space bugs... is terribly unfair and a blow against any gaming with purpose beyond throwing cubes of plastic. Every battle that I've seen is the same, tyranids find something to stand behind and sit there getting mauled turn after turn, praying for a turn 5 hail mary. It's boring to watch and boring to play. At least against Jy2 there was a bit more pushing, but to a similar end. Reecius has put his money where his mouth is and we can all see the results with a click of a button. I would really enjoy seeing Nids getting stomped by a variety of list once the Taudar are raffled away. Maybe then it will sink in. FYI, I say this as a mainly Nid player with at least 3-4k points of nids painted this year. I've heavily invested in my ability to enjoy nids, so to have people pop up constantly and excuse away the awful book is exceedingly annoying.

Reecius, I really enjoy your reps. Thank you for providing cheap entertainment on my morning commute. Do you think you could switch it up and maybe show people how they fair against other lists in a competitive environment?

**barnowl**

Reecius wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Blackmoor

We tried Nids vs. Dark Eldar, Frankie tabled them turn 2!

They suck against so many armies, Wolves, Dark Eldar, Space Marines, Eldar, Tau, etc.

DE have flatout been the worst match ups for my bug lists for 5e and 6e. Even the Taudar I have played against don't rape the bugs as bad. Pure Tau Missileside spam is probably next worst. I find under the new dex I have to run 6-7 synapse units at 1850 to 2000 points. I also find a more agressive play style seems to work better.

2000 point list I am tweaking from: (this is mostly and old 3e army brought forward)
HQ 440
Flyrant (dual Sytal, electroshock grub) 210
2 tyrant Guard 100
Prime (Deathspitter 130

Elite 150
zoanthrope 50
Zoanthrope 50
Zoanthrope 50

Troop 602
23 Termie 92
20 Hormie 100
20 Spinie 80
16+1 Stealers +broodlord with Sytal 288
3 Warriors (2 dual Scytal, 1 Scytal+VC) 100

Fast 295
5 Shrike 175
3 Raveners (Deathspitters) 120

Heavy 465
Dakkafex 150
ScreamKiller (Spine bank,bioplasma) 145
Exocrine 170

So far things I have found on the list that work surprisingly well: Infiltrating Stealers, does not matter that they can't assault, the unit still forces enemy deployment to deal with it; Raveners are again another surprise in the list, though I have found I need atleast 2or 3 more to make it really effective; Exocrine is really good for what it does; The ScreamKiller is a pretty solid and cheap build if you don't want to shoot fliers, up to 9 total attacks on the charge at S9 and a little over half at AP2.

**Reecius**

Red Corsair wrote:
Reecius wrote:
That's what I'm saying fellas, all Nids should get a free Prime with Norn Crown, lol, out of FoC!

The book is wonky I'll give you that. But really people should take the norn prime as it is. He really isn't overpriced for the book he is written into. People REALLY don't understand how crazy it is to have a mini MC IC in a book with units of MC's and massive waves of fearless swarms.
consider this core:
~170- Norn prime (don't have book)
150- 30 x Horms
150- 30 x Horms
150- 30 x Horms
180- 30 x Gargs

That leaves you with plenty of point still in 1500-1850 for things that buff and support these gribblies.

My theory; people are justifiably denying this because they spent the last 2 editions buying flyrants, tervigons and a million termigants. Now the better unit is the horm IMO, better IB chart even if Crap hits the fan as you'll stay on that objective and WAY more mobile for the cost. Nobody wants to shlef 75-100 gants to now build 75-100 GAUNTS!

Taudar have crazy firepower but giving them juicy targets is just what they want. Make him waste riptides on cheap gribblies while your primes hide out in them. Each riptide needs to kill almost 2 full broods to recoup cost... never gona happen. Wraithknight is even worse. Trouble with all these dual flyrant lists is the same problem. On paper you have 2 great synapse creatures, except they generally never want to be in range of synapse in order to be affective. So they end up hiding baby sitting units. They are also laughably easy to shoot down without biomancy.

I think someone needs to buck the stagnant trend of left over 5th ed units.

Yeah, but who wants to play a list like that? Or buy, build and paint a list like that? Haha, have you ever assembled and painted Nids? It sucks. I will never again make another 30 gargs, that was so lame.

Plus, that army doesn't actually kill anything, it just controls the board and dies. That does not sound fun at all to me.

@anonymou5

Hey! hahaha, that list is good, don't be dissin it, son!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@barnowl

Yeah, Venom Spam has always been the bane of Nids.

**Blackmoor**

I would like to say a few things.

#1. The first game I have played with Nids in about 8 years was the day before this game.
#2. It was against Dark Eldar and they are by far the worst match up for Nids. Night shields are a night mare, and Mech is no fun when you are strength 3.
#3. I only had about 3 hours of sleep the night before.
#4. This game was right after a 6 hour drive from LA to the Bay Area.
#5. This list was what I threw together. Sometimes you have to play with that army you have, not the army you want.

**mortetvie**

Blackmoor wrote:
I would like to say a few things.

#1. The first game I have played with Nids in about 8 years was the day before this game.
#2. It was against Dark Eldar and they are by far the worst match up for Nids. Night shields are a night mare, and Mech is no fun when you are strength 3.
#3. I only had about 3 hours of sleep the night before.
#4. This game was right after a 6 hour drive from LA to the Bay Area.
#5. This list was what I threw together. Sometimes you have to play with that army you have, not the army you want.

Hope you caught up on your sleep Blackmoore, lol. In a bit of humor, I wouldn't be surprised if this was a post mirrored by the GW "design team" regarding writing the Tyranid codex... "Sorry everyone, we don't know nids nor do we care-we were just so tired from all of our road trips and stuff. Besides, all we ha to work with was the previous awesome Nid dex and we didn't see anything wrong with it so if it ain't broke don't fix it..."

On a side note, I've found gargoyles to be great tarpit units, blinding venom is great when you actually roll to hit and force a bunch of blind tests. Anyone have any success with infiltrating a large brood of stealers to distract opponent/throw away while rest of the army advances?

**Stormbreed**

A Prime outflanking with 30 devilgaunts could have hurt his backfield somewhat.

I'm still using a Barbed Hierdrule and having great success with a castle Nid Army.

Playing for a turn 5 victory has to be the worst plan out there, unless you're at a tournament , then with the time restrictions I could see it working.

**Red Corsair**

Reecius wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
Reecius wrote:
That's what I'm saying fellas, all Nids should get a free Prime with Norn Crown, lol, out of FoC!

The book is wonky I'll give you that. But really people should take the norn prime as it is. He really isn't overpriced for the book he is written into. People REALLY don't understand how crazy it is to have a mini MC IC in a book with units of MC's and massive waves of fearless swarms.
consider this core:
~170- Norn prime (don't have book)
150- 30 x Horms
150- 30 x Horms
150- 30 x Horms
180- 30 x Gargs

That leaves you with plenty of point still in 1500-1850 for things that buff and support these gribblies.

My theory; people are justifiably denying this because they spent the last 2 editions buying flyrants, tervigons and a million termigants. Now the better unit is the horm IMO, better IB chart even if Crap hits the fan as you'll stay on that objective and WAY more mobile for the cost. Nobody wants to shlef 75-100 gants to now build 75-100 GAUNTS!

Taudar have crazy firepower but giving them juicy targets is just what they want. Make him waste riptides on cheap gribblies while your primes hide out in them. Each riptide needs to kill almost 2 full broods to recoup cost... never gona happen. Wraithknight is even worse. Trouble with all these dual flyrant lists is the same problem. On paper you have 2 great synapse creatures, except they generally never want to be in range of synapse in order to be affective. So they end up hiding baby sitting units. They are also laughably easy to shoot down without biomancy.

I think someone needs to buck the stagnant trend of left over 5th ed units.

Yeah, but who wants to play a list like that? Or buy, build and paint a list like that? Haha, have you ever assembled and painted Nids? It sucks. I will never again make another 30 gargs, that was so lame.

Plus, that army doesn't actually kill anything, it just controls the board and dies. That does not sound fun at all to me.

@anonymou5

Hey! hahaha, that list is good, don't be dissin it, son!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@barnowl

Yeah, Venom Spam has always been the bane of Nids.

That list just moves, controls and dies to Taudar. Lets be honest most armies do that, I just don't understand why people expected this book which is heavily assault based in 6th edition, to some how out match the 2 most OP shooters in the game right now. Whats the definition of insanity again?

(I'm teasing) but that's how yo win at 40k, board control.

Seriously though, if painting gaunts isn't your thing then maybe pass. Its the same thing as horde orks***, some people like painting and playing these builds, and sometimes the meta makes these the best options.

BTW maybe I am biased because with my airbrushes I can batch paint that many gaunts very well using washes and glazes in no time. I actually think its much easier to paint horde nids then guard or orks since they have fewer colors.

I will give you the assembly pain for Gargs though, that's probably why I have yet to see more then 30 in an army

Note my example build only has 30

*** PS prediction time. I am sure Orks lose fearless mobs or gain some sort of animosity again. This has been the trend in 6th. Nerfing fearless scorers.

**Dozer Blades**

** PS prediction time. I am sure Orks lose fearless mobs or gain some sort of animosity again. This has been the trend in 6th. Nerfing fearless scorers.

Yes they needed to account for the loss of wounds due to losing in close combat.

**Red Corsair**

Dozer Blades wrote:
** PS prediction time. I am sure Orks lose fearless mobs or gain some sort of animosity again. This has been the trend in 6th. Nerfing fearless scorers.

Yes they needed to account for the loss of wounds due to losing in close combat.

Well in some instances the simply moved the unit from troops, I'm looking at you chaos! But yes, that looks like the motivation. Of course that would suggest they have a plan and I don't like to give them that much credit.

**RiTides**

Blackmoor wrote:
I would like to say a few things.

#1. The first game I have played with Nids in about 8 years was the day before this game.
#2. It was against Dark Eldar and they are by far the worst match up for Nids. Night shields are a night mare, and Mech is no fun when you are strength 3.
#3. I only had about 3 hours of sleep the night before.
#4. This game was right after a 6 hour drive from LA to the Bay Area.
#5. This list was what I threw together. Sometimes you have to play with that army you have, not the army you want.

Given all of this, this bat rep hardly spells the "death of nids" as for some reason a few folks are making out

. There are plenty of bat reps on this page where nids have won. *shrug*

Looking forward to seeing you play them in the future, Blackmoor!

**jifel**

Blackmoor wrote:
I would like to say a few things.

#1. The first game I have played with Nids in about 8 years was the day before this game.
#2. It was against Dark Eldar and they are by far the worst match up for Nids. Night shields are a night mare, and Mech is no fun when you are strength 3.
#3. I only had about 3 hours of sleep the night before.
#4. This game was right after a 6 hour drive from LA to the Bay Area.
#5. This list was what I threw together. Sometimes you have to play with that army you have, not the army you want.

You played the game correctly in spite of all that? Impressive. Sorry if I came off as too harsh in some of my replies, I'm a bit desperate to discover "the way" to play Nids with this codex, which I am sure exists.

**Reecius**

@Red Corsair

Yes, that is true, horde Nids are easier to paint. My paint scheme takes a little longer though, as I layer the carapace. If I didn't, it would go way faster.

**N.I.B.**

DE Venomspam is just an absurd matchup for nids. Might as well not deploy. The only build that could stand up to them was drop spore builds with lots of dakka. And GW took that away.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Reecius wrote:

We tried Nids vs. Dark Eldar, Frankie tabled them turn 2!

They suck against so many armies, Wolves, Dark Eldar, Space Marines, Eldar, Tau, etc.

Why do you think Nids suck against Space Wolves in particular? You're thinking of Longfangspam, Jaws, Lone Wolf monster killers and Runic Weapons, or something else?

**Reecius**

@NIB

Yup.

Grey Hunters wade through little bugs, Jaws drops the big bugs and missiles kill everything in the Codex, lol!

**Dozer Blades**

... missiles kill everything in the Codex,

Not the Tfex they don't.

**N.I.B.**

They can struggle against a flying circus though (which I found out tonight).

**Reecius**

@T-Fex=Jaws Bait =(

@NIB

Yeah, true story. Without AA support form allies, that can be a big problem.

**Nivoglibina**

Rofl at the Forgewold dig, loved that.
Thank you and Blackmoor for yet another entertaining batrep, even if the game itself was more strategic than epic.

**H.B.M.C.**

Yeah. Bring FW. That'll solve everything.

Amoras wrote:
Sad to see Tyranids having to hide all game to even have a chance.

It's a reoccurring theme with these BatReps.

The Tyranids are a (Warp) shadow of their former selves. Great Devourer? Great Hider more like.

**Dozer Blades**

In fairness to the Tyranid players they are playing a new codex and I salute them for taking up the challenge. Blackmoor is taking them to LVO which I respect a lot.

**hyv3mynd**

Dozer Blades wrote:
In fairness to the Tyranid players they are playing a new codex and I salute them for taking up the challenge. Blackmoor is taking them to LVO which I respect a lot.

In fairness, daemons, tau, eldar, and space marines were winning GTs 30 days after release.

New codex is a poor excuse for the army performing poorly.

**tetrisphreak**

hyv3mynd wrote:
Dozer Blades wrote:
In fairness to the Tyranid players they are playing a new codex and I salute them for taking up the challenge. Blackmoor is taking them to LVO which I respect a lot.

In fairness, daemons, tau, eldar, and space marines were winning GTs 30 days after release.

New codex is a poor excuse for the army performing poorly.

I'm seeing a lot of (surprisingly) positive outcomes in games where nids are being used - they're winning in the batreps section vs space marines, chaos, etc. Dark eldar/Eldar/Tau just seem to be the hard counter to the book right now - I feel like that's tinting the overall consensus on how good or bad the book is because Taudar is currently the top dog and most commonly seen 'competitive' force right now. In a mixed meta tyranids are doing as well as they should be.

Do i dislike the new IB mechanics, and the overall "drab" feel of the codex? Of course i do. this isn't a white-knight for the Crudd-dex part II. Let's just see where the nids fall at LVO - i'd expect to see top-middle finishers using the new book, but i feel that it will still be TauDar in the top 3 just like at NOVA.

**jy2**

tetrisphreak wrote:

I'm seeing a lot of (surprisingly) positive outcomes in games where nids are being used - they're winning in the batreps section vs space marines, chaos, etc. Dark eldar/Eldar/Tau just seem to be the hard counter to the book right now - I feel like that's tinting the overall consensus on how good or bad the book is because Taudar is currently the top dog and most commonly seen 'competitive' force right now. In a mixed meta tyranids are doing as well as they should be.

Do i dislike the new IB mechanics, and the overall "drab" feel of the codex? Of course i do. this isn't a white-knight for the Crudd-dex part II. Let's just see where the nids fall at LVO - i'd expect to see top-middle finishers using the new book, but i feel that it will still be TauDar in the top 3 just like at NOVA.

Agreed. Tyranids are still good against the majority of the armies out there. There's just a few armies that will give them trouble. It just happens that these armies will give the majority of the armies out there trouble as well. Tyranids are actually quite balanced against most of the armies out there. It's just that the top builds (with the exception of Dark Eldar, which is more of a rock-papers-scissors type of army) are too strong compared to the majority of the armies.

**Dozer Blades**

I'm looking at LVO as a practical indicator how competitive they are based upon top players like Blackmoor.

There was no Tau or Eldar in top five last year at WGC... Not sure about FoB.

**jy2**

Dozer Blades wrote:
I'm looking at LVO as a practical indicator how competitive they are based upon top players like Blackmoor.

There was no Tau or Eldar in top five last year at WGC... Not sure about FoB.

There's actually going to be some very good Tyranid players from the West Coast going. There's Doug (aka WarbossDugg, I believe he's taking bugs) as well as Cooper (aka Lajollagrad), one of the very few Tyranid players to have ever won a GT with his bugs.

And then there's Jay Woodcock from the East Coast.

Too bad Janthkin isn't participating in the 40K Championships with his tyranids.

**Dozer Blades**

That's some power. If anyone can do it they can. I wish Janthkin was playing his bugs.

**hyv3mynd**

tetrisphreak wrote:
hyv3mynd wrote:
Dozer Blades wrote:
In fairness to the Tyranid players they are playing a new codex and I salute them for taking up the challenge. Blackmoor is taking them to LVO which I respect a lot.

In fairness, daemons, tau, eldar, and space marines were winning GTs 30 days after release.

New codex is a poor excuse for the army performing poorly.

I'm seeing a lot of (surprisingly) positive outcomes in games where nids are being used - they're winning in the batreps section vs space marines, chaos, etc. Dark eldar/Eldar/Tau just seem to be the hard counter to the book right now - I feel like that's tinting the overall consensus on how good or bad the book is because Taudar is currently the top dog and most commonly seen 'competitive' force right now. In a mixed meta tyranids are doing as well as they should be.

Do i dislike the new IB mechanics, and the overall "drab" feel of the codex? Of course i do. this isn't a white-knight for the Crudd-dex part II. Let's just see where the nids fall at LVO - i'd expect to see top-middle finishers using the new book, but i feel that it will still be TauDar in the top 3 just like at NOVA.

Surprisingly positive results? Maybe we aren't reading the same reports. I've seen JY2 club a SM baby seal list and Incontrol do the same to one of Reece's softest lists where he even forgot to use some units. All the reports with evenly matched lists and generals have been tyranid losses.

The thing about meta shifts is tyranids didn't get any new tricks. Their psychic powers are mostly rolled over from the last book and they lost biomancy and telepathy. They lost most of their deployment options and tricks with drop pods and ymgarls going extinct. The result is the counter-tyranid meta will adapt faster than the competitive tyranid lists. Tyranids will never get ahead with a head thumper like seer council, screamer star, serpent spam, etc. foot based assault armies are extremely easy to out play and anyone who's faced a daemon flying circus will giggle at 5 TFMCs without invulns and biomancy.

Jay W is a good friend and writes for my blog occasionally and even placed 3rd at Adepticon with nids a few years ago. I love the dude but I still doubt the army will perform in a field of 200+. In fact, if I were a gambling man I'd gladly bet piles of cash that no nids will make the top 8 champions bracket at LVO. I'd loved to be proved wrong. I have 4,000pts in bugs collecting dust because I find the new book depressing. But if someone can find a way to make them work ill dust them off.

**Dozer Blades**

What I have noticed is lots of people who didn't play Nidz in sixth edition are coming back to them now. I understand it's hard for those who've played them in sixth edition to get a handle on the new codex. There's lot of good stuff though.

**Red Corsair**

@Hyv3mynd: You could enjoy them for all the other aspects of the hobby as well. I am not being cheeky here either. I was much more competitive until 6th hit. 6th in general has some horrible rules in regard to competitive play and WAY to many books are left wanting. For me, it's been a time to remodel all my armies and play more unit that I like regardless of how they perform.

And no this doesn't make me a fluff bunny either. I regularly get to the top table still, I just don't expect to beat the EXTREME cheese I generally draw in that round. Because of the expected outcome I enjoy the day much more. If I win, all the better because I did it my way.

And when 7th hits, hopefully things will get better and I will have some outstanding looking armies.

It would be a shame not to see your poor bugs get some hobby love just because they aren't the BBT.

**Dozer Blades**

IB was always a problem prior to sixth edition Tervi spam... It can suck more now but it doesn't have to be self defeating. Every army has some weakness. Most of the bitching is related to losing the broken cheese they had... EZ win mode is gone... Doesn't mean they suck just because it's hard to beat Tau and Eldar. They should do well versus daemons.