I just checked. The Tyranid Limited Edition codex is still in stock in Canada, though I can't see the numbers any more. Being completely unable to guess their next move, no one knows for sure (I don't think GW even knows) they might stop selling LE Codexes since this one didn't sell at all.
Seriously, I think this is the only one that didn't immediately sell out. And then they had the banner on the homepage of their website that had the number for like 2 weeks after. They still had like 25% left.
That's probably the only thing they will take away from this.
Though didn't the 3rd Chaos codex suck so bad they made 3.5? Or was it too powerful?
GW didn't learn anything for two important reasons:
1.) They can't learn. They have no way to gauge things. They have no PR department and no communication with their customer base, really the only entertainment-related company I know of to behave like this. I think the execs really have zero idea of how anything is received
2.) They don't care about how it was received. They still tricked a lot of people into buying it and that's all that counts. As for those silly neckbeards who want to play their games, they don't want you buying their products anyway.
If something does go wrong at GW that the execs actually learn or care about, they either blame the lower managers, independent retailers, the customers, or that pesky new-fangled internet.
I think it's a little early to say; the poor selling of the LE nid codex is very telling though and it's not like GW doesn't gauge how their stuff is selling.
Not all codices are made by the same folks at GW (the nid codex is suspiciously without a designated author) and some have a better grasp of the game than others, it seems clear.
it's difficult to know what's going on at GW other than upcoming products without insider information. They've made themselves faceless by having zero PR, which gives me the impression that a good lot of them couldn't care less if the game is balanced, so long as they're selling stuff.
GW has a vested interest in selling models, so if the rules for some models make them not sell well, then to some extent there must be at least some people at GW that view the nid codex as dropping the ball.
I'd really like to see some extra viability added with the dataslates, but I'm not holding my breath.
As evidenced by their drastic drop in stock value (it's still of good value, mind you) and their stagnated revenue despite constantly raising prices, (which suggests they're losing customers) GW would seem to be in a state of decline, which MIGHT warrant changes. Kirby, the CEO, is getting old and could retire somewhat soon, so that might be a reason to squeeze as much money out of his customers as he can before jumping ship, which is what any self-respecting CEO would be inclined to do.
Other people have made the same argument, however since Kirby owns a large number of shares, he can make more money by leaving the company in a successful state paying good dividends and with a high share price, than by grabbing a few years more pay and skipping town.
In other words, he has no incentive to take a short term view.
That does not mean, of course, that the strategy he is using must be the best one. I think we have to wait a couple of years to find out.
JPong wrote: I just checked. The Tyranid Limited Edition codex is still in stock in Canada, though I can't see the numbers any more. Being completely unable to guess their next move, no one knows for sure (I don't think GW even knows) they might stop selling LE Codexes since this one didn't sell at all.
Seriously, I think this is the only one that didn't immediately sell out. And then they had the banner on the homepage of their website that had the number for like 2 weeks after. They still had like 25% left.
That's probably the only thing they will take away from this.
Though didn't the 3rd Chaos codex suck so bad they made 3.5? Or was it too powerful?
Naw wrote: What lesson is there to learn? To make a third OP codex after Tau and Eldar?
Yes while Ignoring that the Daemon codex is good and the Necron Codex is good and that the Space Marine codex has some fluffy and Competitive builds buts yes lets all beat the Tau Eldar drum as to why Nids should get a poorly thought out, bland , non fluffy Codex with more of an emphasis on a you to chapter house than making a good book.
Don't mistake my comment here for trying to be rude to you, I just really dislike people thinking that nid players were wanting an OP dex that had to stomp Tau and Eldar.
Read the book and you will see it was poorly written and looks like they just flat ran out of time to write it correctly.
Blacksails wrote:The quality of a codex is not measured solely by how well it stands up next to the current power codex.
Exactly. You shouldn't be comparing new nids against tau, you should be comparing them against DA, SM, and CSM, which were done correctly (well, not fluffwise, but that's another matter). It's better that they make the game reasonably balanced and just fix the one or two codices that are overpowered, rather than forcing real codex creep where there wasn't before.
The codex is imbalanced, or it just came out and a few powergamers figured out the most obvious way to win and you haven't had the time to see its balance yet?
DA, CSM, SM, and Guard are all pretty good. I didn't say perfect, of course, but pretty good.
You'd never know it given the internet's primal scream of "HELLDRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKESSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!", and worse about vendettas, etc., but that's mostly from people who tend to immediately fall into solipsistic obsessions about things. Take a deep breath, a step back, and a mindset that can rationally compare things to each other, and things really aren't so bad for in-codex balance in most codices.
Even then, the most obvious examples I can think of codices with structural problems are old ones like orks or DE, and they only had problems once 6th edition changed the rules out from underneath them.
Blacksails wrote:The quality of a codex is not measured solely by how well it stands up next to the current power codex.
Exactly. You shouldn't be comparing new nids against tau, you should be comparing them against DA, SM, and CSM, which were done correctly (well, not fluffwise, but that's another matter). It's better that they make the game reasonably balanced and just fix the one or two codices that are overpowered, rather than forcing real codex creep where there wasn't before.
Okay...well the Tyranid codex is poor when compared to DA, SM, and CSM so what are you trying to say? The Tyranid codex is horribly balanced against itself, it has a slew of draw backs that aren't counter balanced by any kind of positive the two major ones being IB and Tervigons but the codex is full of similar points of data, it is boring and even more monolist than the last codex. The 5th codex wasn't received well and this new one didn't exactly shake things up so why on earth are people still harping on about waiting and seeing?
Oh, I think GW has learnt their lesson along time ago. Then again, it seems they have their head so far up their arse, I think that they think they can do no wrong.
I wonder how people play nids where FW or escalation&stroghold assault are played . It is one thing to know that dead synaps will cost you a game and try to protect them and another to know that it is impossible to protect them , no matter what you do .
Blacksails wrote:The quality of a codex is not measured solely by how well it stands up next to the current power codex.
Exactly. You shouldn't be comparing new nids against tau, you should be comparing them against DA, SM, and CSM, which were done correctly (well, not fluffwise, but that's another matter). It's better that they make the game reasonably balanced and just fix the one or two codices that are overpowered, rather than forcing real codex creep where there wasn't before.
Okay...well the Tyranid codex is poor when compared to DA, SM, and CSM so what are you trying to say? The Tyranid codex is horribly balanced against itself, it has a slew of draw backs that aren't counter balanced by any kind of positive the two major ones being IB and Tervigons but the codex is full of similar points of data, it is boring and even more monolist than the last codex. The 5th codex wasn't received well and this new one didn't exactly shake things up so why on earth are people still harping on about waiting and seeing?
Well I have fun with the new codex but I agree on the internal balance problems. Its hard do build an effective list without some sort of spamming. But I have to live with that for the next 3 years. So why on earth are people still crying about the new nid-dex? As we all know, GW dont care about its customers so make the best out of it or play another army or game until the next codex release.
Because GW cares about money. We know they read forums and such because they have used things from this very forum in their FAQ. We also know that because they don't want new players googling "Tyranid codex review" and seeing only complaints.
JPong wrote: I just checked. The Tyranid Limited Edition codex is still in stock in Canada, though I can't see the numbers any more. Being completely unable to guess their next move, no one knows for sure (I don't think GW even knows) they might stop selling LE Codexes since this one didn't sell at all.
Seriously, I think this is the only one that didn't immediately sell out. And then they had the banner on the homepage of their website that had the number for like 2 weeks after. They still had like 25% left.
That's probably the only thing they will take away from this.
Though didn't the 3rd Chaos codex suck so bad they made 3.5? Or was it too powerful?
Too powerful.
You've got it wrong, it was made with the 3.5 update to the rules.
the 3E chaos codex was pretty much meh, the 3.5 is what everyone talks about.
Blacksails wrote:The quality of a codex is not measured solely by how well it stands up next to the current power codex.
Exactly. You shouldn't be comparing new nids against tau, you should be comparing them against DA, SM, and CSM, which were done correctly (well, not fluffwise, but that's another matter). It's better that they make the game reasonably balanced and just fix the one or two codices that are overpowered, rather than forcing real codex creep where there wasn't before.
Okay...well the Tyranid codex is poor when compared to DA, SM, and CSM so what are you trying to say? The Tyranid codex is horribly balanced against itself, it has a slew of draw backs that aren't counter balanced by any kind of positive the two major ones being IB and Tervigons but the codex is full of similar points of data, it is boring and even more monolist than the last codex. The 5th codex wasn't received well and this new one didn't exactly shake things up so why on earth are people still harping on about waiting and seeing?
Well I have fun with the new codex but I agree on the internal balance problems. Its hard do build an effective list without some sort of spamming. But I have to live with that for the next 3 years. So why on earth are people still crying about the new nid-dex? As we all know, GW dont care about its customers so make the best out of it or play another army or game until the next codex release.
I don't really see many people whinning about it. Now if you think voicing complaints is whinning then there is nothing I can do to help you. People complain when something they do not like is forced upon them. I love Tyranids, I like 40k, I want to keep playing the game and I expect as a customer to be offered a quality product. GW delivered a hack job rush of a codex that seems to be made just to spite Chapter House and little else, so why on earth am I not allowed to be disappointed?
Blacksails wrote:The quality of a codex is not measured solely by how well it stands up next to the current power codex.
Exactly. You shouldn't be comparing new nids against tau, you should be comparing them against DA, SM, and CSM, which were done correctly (well, not fluffwise, but that's another matter). It's better that they make the game reasonably balanced and just fix the one or two codices that are overpowered, rather than forcing real codex creep where there wasn't before.
Okay...well the Tyranid codex is poor when compared to DA, SM, and CSM so what are you trying to say? The Tyranid codex is horribly balanced against itself, it has a slew of draw backs that aren't counter balanced by any kind of positive the two major ones being IB and Tervigons but the codex is full of similar points of data, it is boring and even more monolist than the last codex. The 5th codex wasn't received well and this new one didn't exactly shake things up so why on earth are people still harping on about waiting and seeing?
Well I have fun with the new codex but I agree on the internal balance problems. Its hard do build an effective list without some sort of spamming. But I have to live with that for the next 3 years. So why on earth are people still crying about the new nid-dex? As we all know, GW dont care about its customers so make the best out of it or play another army or game until the next codex release.
I don't really see many people whinning about it. Now if you think voicing complaints is whinning then there is nothing I can do to help you. People complain when something they do not like is forced upon them. I love Tyranids, I like 40k, I want to keep playing the game and I expect as a customer to be offered a quality product. GW delivered a hack job rush of a codex that seems to be made just to spite Chapter House and little else, so why on earth am I not allowed to be disappointed?
Exactly. A lot of us think 40k has a lot of potential, like tyranids and would like to play the game but GW undermines this. I have no desire to buy any more GW product. Now if the nid dex had been given a serious effort to fix it and add some variety/flavour so that it was around the level of the SM dex (not the level of OP Tau/Eldar) I would be fine and I would have bought many more models - for my other armies as well. But it isn't so I wont be buying any more GW product unless they correct this poorly done, bland, product full of missed and obvious opportunities. After the garbage of the 5th ed dex it is inexcusable to have another pile of garbage. I am not the only one that feels this way. Surely GW wants to sell kits. If they read these threads and the many others on the various forums, and from poor sales, they must have an idea that they are to blame and it is up to them to step up and redo the dex. Think what effect that would have on the community - GW taking responsibility for a bad product - people would flock back to GW games.
Naw wrote: What lesson is there to learn? To make a third OP codex after Tau and Eldar?
This guy gets it. Its a solid codex actually. Its not as easy or obvious as Elder or Tau. If those two Codex's didn't exist. It wouldn't be an issue. I play Elder and I'll be the first to point out the real issue. 2 Codex's rule and a combo of them is that much better.
I don't get the GW hate I really don't. I view it the same way I view a cheating GF. If she is so awful you'll leave her no matter the cost. If you don't however you don't get to complain about her.
Blacksails wrote:The quality of a codex is not measured solely by how well it stands up next to the current power codex.
Exactly. You shouldn't be comparing new nids against tau, you should be comparing them against DA, SM, and CSM, which were done correctly (well, not fluffwise, but that's another matter). It's better that they make the game reasonably balanced and just fix the one or two codices that are overpowered, rather than forcing real codex creep where there wasn't before.
Okay...well the Tyranid codex is poor when compared to DA, SM, and CSM so what are you trying to say? The Tyranid codex is horribly balanced against itself, it has a slew of draw backs that aren't counter balanced by any kind of positive the two major ones being IB and Tervigons but the codex is full of similar points of data, it is boring and even more monolist than the last codex. The 5th codex wasn't received well and this new one didn't exactly shake things up so why on earth are people still harping on about waiting and seeing?
Well I have fun with the new codex but I agree on the internal balance problems. Its hard do build an effective list without some sort of spamming. But I have to live with that for the next 3 years. So why on earth are people still crying about the new nid-dex? As we all know, GW dont care about its customers so make the best out of it or play another army or game until the next codex release.
I don't really see many people whinning about it. Now if you think voicing complaints is whinning then there is nothing I can do to help you. People complain when something they do not like is forced upon them. I love Tyranids, I like 40k, I want to keep playing the game and I expect as a customer to be offered a quality product. GW delivered a hack job rush of a codex that seems to be made just to spite Chapter House and little else, so why on earth am I not allowed to be disappointed?
Dont misunderstand me. Its totally okay for me that people are disappointed and talk about it, but there are no new arguments coming up. At the moment it feels like every new nid thread comes to the point where people are talking about how bad the new dex is and GW is ruining 40k and thats kind of boring. Most people arguing against it also pretend EVERYBODY on the whole planet agrees with them. So i picked the "why on earth" part out of the quoted post and made my own sentence with it. It wasnt ment as "shut up and suck it down". If it felt this way, I am sorry.
Yes, I totally agree with you, the new nid-dex has several weaknesses, internal balance isnt really worth talking about and all in all its a recycled 5th Edition dex with some point decreases, new MCs and nervs. But you can still build lists that work against most other lists and i have fun with it. For me its more importent, that the tau and eldar codices get a workover to be at the same level as the other ones. I really hope for that, but I dont think its going to happend like i dont think that nids get a rerolled codex in the next 2 years.
How often has GW corrected their faults? I am still waiting for the FAQ that fixes helldrakes, jaws of the world wolf, 2+ rerollable invulnerable saves, spammable dedicated transports with extreme firepower, also known as waveserpent and all the other broken pieces of 40k.
ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: If you ask me, the Nid codex shows that GW learned its lessons from Daemons, Tau and Eldar.
Much better external balance. Perhaps internal balance could be straightened out though.
To me the Nid codex showed that they didn't learn their lession from Necrons. Phase Out was not fun, it did not forge a good narrative, and the same goes for Instinctive Behaviour.
Most of the people who were playing Nids in 6th edition prior to the new codex are upset about the loss of Biomancy. IB was not issue due to Tervigon spam and now the Tervigon has been nerfed. I think the new codex is quite good - you have to be willing to try new things.
Naw wrote: What lesson is there to learn? To make a third OP codex after Tau and Eldar?
This guy gets it. Its a solid codex actually. Its not as easy or obvious as Elder or Tau. If those two Codex's didn't exist. It wouldn't be an issue. I play Elder and I'll be the first to point out the real issue. 2 Codex's rule and a combo of them is that much better.
I don't get the GW hate I really don't. I view it the same way I view a cheating GF. If she is so awful you'll leave her no matter the cost. If you don't however you don't get to complain about her.
It's more of battered wife syndrome. You feel abused and unappreciated, GW spits in our faces, but we love them so much we can't leave.
I believe the issue is a lot of people have supported GW and made them to where they are now. GW actions show no support to the people who have supported them and made them where they are today. Then the blatant disrespect to the community, that people who make GW fan sites are told they can't use their pics, The Cease and Desist letters GW sends to everyone and making it so hard for FLGS to sell their products seems like s spit in the face to fans who supported GW when they were basically nothing.
Reminds me of Sony and Microsoft. Thankyou Gamespot for selling our games, but now we don't want you sell our games so we can make more money and who cares if you go out of business. Thankyou for making us for what we are today, but no go take a hike and stop taking money away from us now. It seems Sony and Micorsoft has eased it's stance on Gamespot and EB Games selling their product for now.
Davor wrote:It's more of battered wife syndrome. You feel abused and unappreciated, GW spits in our faces, but we love them so much we can't leave.
Wow.
You know, you might as well go all the way here. People who like GW are like people who voted for the Nazi party in 1936. They enabled a system that brought misery to uncounted multitudes.
Dozer Blades wrote: Most of the people who were playing Nids in 6th edition prior to the new codex are upset about the loss of Biomancy. IB was not issue due to Tervigon spam and now the Tervigon has been nerfed. I think the new codex is quite good - you have to be willing to try new things.
See this logic just mystifies me...
First, not to many people are upset about the loss of Biomancy. It sucked but most every nid player shrugged and moved on, for the hundredth time it is not about the power level of the codex it is about the poor rules, poor units, and copy and paste that people are most upset about. In 5th the synapse creatures were powerful and worth taking, THAT is why synapse wasn't as much of a concern before. Now synapse is like a tax because most synapse units aren't worth taking if it weren't for the fact that synapse is needed in redundancy in your list.
I've tried every unit in both the 5th codex and the 6th codex, it's not like I just write off the bad units immediately even though it would have been easy enough to do. Pyrovores are bad, there is no roll they excell at, they have minorly decent anti-infantry capability in an army that has more than enough anti-infanrty. Mawlocs effectively got a reroll to wound on their blast template and they weren't exactly shaking up the meta for nids in 5th so why people think they are so much better now is beyond me.
The power level of the codex is low to mid tier, it can do just fine when playing a game with friends and having a laugh. Fine, that is cool and I love playing my nids and this is my preferred environment. I do have a problem with the fact that I am not going to be winning tournaments with Tyranids, I have a problem that I am looking at a codex filled with pointless abilities and units, where most of my list have auto-includes in three of the six FOC slots. It is boring and repetitive, it is stagnant, the 6th codex didn't shake anything up other than to remove the viability of running multiple Tervigons.
Mawlocs effectively got a reroll to wound on their blast template and they weren't exactly shaking up the meta for nids in 5th so why people think they are so much better now is beyond me.
Its 30 points cheaper, a 6hp MC (for 140points), double template on arrival and you can get it where ever you want, using a lictor. Well I think its really nice...
You should try to do something different. Losing synapse sucks, yes, but get over it. Try to minimize its effect.
We play an objective game, yet a tyranid player thinks they must place an objective in their DZ. Why?? To have a scoring troop sit there, another to provide synapse and at the same time stretch your army thin? No no no. Don't play the objectives, play to decimate the opponent.
We play an objective game, yet a tyranid player thinks they must place an objective in their DZ. Why?? To have a scoring troop sit there, another to provide synapse and at the same time stretch your army thin? No no no. Don't play the objectives, play to decimate the opponent.
Thats a good point. Due to the fact, that I am paying a pure CC army, i normally place my objectives near to the enemy and try to rush him over with hard hitting MSU. Works fine at the Moment. Nids might have some nice Dakka-units, but I like it Close and personal abd thats where they excel.
Dozer Blades wrote: Most of the people who were playing Nids in 6th edition prior to the new codex are upset about the loss of Biomancy. IB was not issue due to Tervigon spam and now the Tervigon has been nerfed. I think the new codex is quite good - you have to be willing to try new things.
See this logic just mystifies me...
First, not to many people are upset about the loss of Biomancy. It sucked but most every nid player shrugged and moved on, for the hundredth time it is not about the power level of the codex it is about the poor rules, poor units, and copy and paste that people are most upset about. In 5th the synapse creatures were powerful and worth taking, THAT is why synapse wasn't as much of a concern before. Now synapse is like a tax because most synapse units aren't worth taking if it weren't for the fact that synapse is needed in redundancy in your list.
I've tried every unit in both the 5th codex and the 6th codex, it's not like I just write off the bad units immediately even though it would have been easy enough to do. Pyrovores are bad, there is no roll they excell at, they have minorly decent anti-infantry capability in an army that has more than enough anti-infanrty. Mawlocs effectively got a reroll to wound on their blast template and they weren't exactly shaking up the meta for nids in 5th so why people think they are so much better now is beyond me.
The power level of the codex is low to mid tier, it can do just fine when playing a game with friends and having a laugh. Fine, that is cool and I love playing my nids and this is my preferred environment. I do have a problem with the fact that I am not going to be winning tournaments with Tyranids, I have a problem that I am looking at a codex filled with pointless abilities and units, where most of my list have auto-includes in three of the six FOC slots. It is boring and repetitive, it is stagnant, the 6th codex didn't shake anything up other than to remove the viability of running multiple Tervigons.
I feel the exact opposite. I think there are a lot of really good units to choose from and think this is much better than the last codex.
Dozer Blades wrote: Most of the people who were playing Nids in 6th edition prior to the new codex are upset about the loss of Biomancy. IB was not issue due to Tervigon spam and now the Tervigon has been nerfed. I think the new codex is quite good - you have to be willing to try new things.
See this logic just mystifies me...
First, not to many people are upset about the loss of Biomancy. It sucked but most every nid player shrugged and moved on, for the hundredth time it is not about the power level of the codex it is about the poor rules, poor units, and copy and paste that people are most upset about. In 5th the synapse creatures were powerful and worth taking, THAT is why synapse wasn't as much of a concern before. Now synapse is like a tax because most synapse units aren't worth taking if it weren't for the fact that synapse is needed in redundancy in your list.
I've tried every unit in both the 5th codex and the 6th codex, it's not like I just write off the bad units immediately even though it would have been easy enough to do. Pyrovores are bad, there is no roll they excell at, they have minorly decent anti-infantry capability in an army that has more than enough anti-infanrty. Mawlocs effectively got a reroll to wound on their blast template and they weren't exactly shaking up the meta for nids in 5th so why people think they are so much better now is beyond me.
The power level of the codex is low to mid tier, it can do just fine when playing a game with friends and having a laugh. Fine, that is cool and I love playing my nids and this is my preferred environment. I do have a problem with the fact that I am not going to be winning tournaments with Tyranids, I have a problem that I am looking at a codex filled with pointless abilities and units, where most of my list have auto-includes in three of the six FOC slots. It is boring and repetitive, it is stagnant, the 6th codex didn't shake anything up other than to remove the viability of running multiple Tervigons.
I feel the exact opposite. I think there are a lot of really good units to choose from and think this is much better than the last codex.
I think you both are right. The Tyranid codex has bad units only when compared to the other "better done" codices like the Tau or the Necron. But in their codex, Tyranid units are quite awesome when compared to other Tyranid units. Like, Jeanstealers are pretty cool when compared to Hormagaunts as they hit hard but Hormagaunts are also pretty cool when compared to Jeanstealres because they have the numbers. The codex has very good selections in a contained environment where only Tyranids exist, but it crumbles as soon as the "others" show up, especially armies with a lot more thought.
it is pretty much Chaos Space Marines Reloaded minus the Baledrake+Nurgle combo.
Honestly, when the new DA and CSM books came out, I was really hoping to just see a general power decrease in 40k across the board. Instead, we got the opposite - Tau and Eldar require some talent, but they're the closest thing 40k has ever had to a win button. If you completely ignore Tau, Eldar and Daemons, burn Stronghold Assault/Escalation, limit flyers and pretend that rolling for psychic powers is actually just a choice from a list, the game plays a lot better. Unfortunately, it's also far less varied and assault is still not really a worthwhile tactic. It's a weird state of game to be sure. I honestly don't enjoy it either, a lot of my enjoyment comes from envisioning battle and I just can't do it with half the garbage that's come out. I miss the days where my biggest gripes were the games took too long to play back in 2e. At least that was fun, unlike the current "pretend that the horrible imbalance doesn't exist, pretend the background material even slightly resembles in game when it doesn't and never even bother trying to win because it may as well be a coin flip in 6e" which we have currently.
GW will never learn from dissatisfaction because they're convinced that it's not the majority of their target audience and that it's unjustified. The idea of expanding their market and not being hated seem to be completely vacant from the minds of their higher up staff. I don't know a single person who dislikes the IP, to the extent I know people who only don't play due to entry cost and gakky rules. The fact that a company can take that blind loyalty and still lose sales in any period of time is quite remarkable indeed. Whilst the thought that balance is pointless and randomness is fun prevails, 40k will never be the game it should and could be. So no, they'll have learnt nothing, because we had this issue last nid dex and the chaos dex before that and they didn't learn from those either. This is the game they appear to want, even when no-one else does. In their minds, their is nothing to learn.
Dozer Blades wrote: Most of the people who were playing Nids in 6th edition prior to the new codex are upset about the loss of Biomancy. IB was not issue due to Tervigon spam and now the Tervigon has been nerfed. I think the new codex is quite good - you have to be willing to try new things.
See this logic just mystifies me...
First, not to many people are upset about the loss of Biomancy. It sucked but most every nid player shrugged and moved on, for the hundredth time it is not about the power level of the codex it is about the poor rules, poor units, and copy and paste that people are most upset about. In 5th the synapse creatures were powerful and worth taking, THAT is why synapse wasn't as much of a concern before. Now synapse is like a tax because most synapse units aren't worth taking if it weren't for the fact that synapse is needed in redundancy in your list.
I've tried every unit in both the 5th codex and the 6th codex, it's not like I just write off the bad units immediately even though it would have been easy enough to do. Pyrovores are bad, there is no roll they excell at, they have minorly decent anti-infantry capability in an army that has more than enough anti-infanrty. Mawlocs effectively got a reroll to wound on their blast template and they weren't exactly shaking up the meta for nids in 5th so why people think they are so much better now is beyond me.
The power level of the codex is low to mid tier, it can do just fine when playing a game with friends and having a laugh. Fine, that is cool and I love playing my nids and this is my preferred environment. I do have a problem with the fact that I am not going to be winning tournaments with Tyranids, I have a problem that I am looking at a codex filled with pointless abilities and units, where most of my list have auto-includes in three of the six FOC slots. It is boring and repetitive, it is stagnant, the 6th codex didn't shake anything up other than to remove the viability of running multiple Tervigons.
I feel the exact opposite. I think there are a lot of really good units to choose from and think this is much better than the last codex.
I think you both are right. The Tyranid codex has bad units only when compared to the other "better done" codices like the Tau or the Necron. But in their codex, Tyranid units are quite awesome when compared to other Tyranid units. Like, Jeanstealers are pretty cool when compared to Hormagaunts as they hit hard but Hormagaunts are also pretty cool when compared to Jeanstealres because they have the numbers. The codex has very good selections in a contained environment where only Tyranids exist, but it crumbles as soon as the "others" show up, especially armies with a lot more thought.
it is pretty much Chaos Space Marines Reloaded minus the Baledrake+Nurgle combo.
The Crone functions a lot like the Drake and has the S8 vector strike plus it's less points. Tyranids are a synergistic army... You cannot count on a couple units winning the game for you. Your comparisons are silly btw.
The Crone functions a lot like the Drake and has the S8 vector strike plus it's less points. Tyranids are a synergistic army... You cannot count on a couple units winning the game for you. Your comparisons are silly btw.
Not really though, if we're being honest. The flamer is weaker and lacks the all important torrent+AP3, it's waaaay less survivable (AV12 is roughly T8, so Heldrakes are basically ungroundable T8 W4 5++ units compared to T5 W5 4+ of the Harpy - the difference between being wounded on 2+ no save with a quadgun and being "wounded" on a 5+ with a 5++) and the Drake competes with no other valuable units unlike the Crone. Even ignoring the instinctive behaviour problems and grounding tests, the Heldrake is still vastly better for only 20 more points. As a result, they function nothing alike - the Darke kills MEQ blobs, the Crone tries to kill multiwound T4 models. Nids are no more synergistic than any other army - they're just hampered by a restriction no-one else needs.
The Crone functions a lot like the Drake and has the S8 vector strike plus it's less points.
Yeeeeeeaaaaahhh... The AP4 no-Torrent flamer on a T5 Sv4+ platform is totally like the AP3 Torrent flamer on an AV12 Sv5++ IWND plaform. The Crone wants to be a Baledrake but it isn't. And that 15 points won't redeem that.
Dozer Blades wrote: Tyranids are a synergistic army... You cannot count on a couple units winning the game for you.
This is bullsh*t. The Tau is a synergistic army where everything is either a force multiplier or a niche support unit. The Tyranid codex is all about spamming the same thing over and over then simply play threat overload and use brute force to win. Hell, the codex has, like, three things that can do any synergy: the Venomthrope and the two blessings (Catalyst and Onslaught). Everything else is either a one-trick pony (Hive Commander), useless and/or unreliable (Lictor teleport homer, Trygon tunnel) or self-sufficient (most of the heavy-hitters like the Exocrine).
Eyjio wrote: Honestly, when the new DA and CSM books came out, I was really hoping to just see a general power decrease in 40k across the board. Instead, we got the opposite - Tau and Eldar require some talent, but they're the closest thing 40k has ever had to a win button. If you completely ignore Tau, Eldar and Daemons, burn Stronghold Assault/Escalation, limit flyers and pretend that rolling for psychic powers is actually just a choice from a list, the game plays a lot better. Unfortunately, it's also far less varied and assault is still not really a worthwhile tactic. It's a weird state of game to be sure. I honestly don't enjoy it either, a lot of my enjoyment comes from envisioning battle and I just can't do it with half the garbage that's come out. I miss the days where my biggest gripes were the games took too long to play back in 2e. At least that was fun, unlike the current "pretend that the horrible imbalance doesn't exist, pretend the background material even slightly resembles in game when it doesn't and never even bother trying to win because it may as well be a coin flip in 6e" which we have currently.
GW will never learn from dissatisfaction because they're convinced that it's not the majority of their target audience and that it's unjustified. The idea of expanding their market and not being hated seem to be completely vacant from the minds of their higher up staff. I don't know a single person who dislikes the IP, to the extent I know people who only don't play due to entry cost and gakky rules. The fact that a company can take that blind loyalty and still lose sales in any period of time is quite remarkable indeed. Whilst the thought that balance is pointless and randomness is fun prevails, 40k will never be the game it should and could be. So no, they'll have learnt nothing, because we had this issue last nid dex and the chaos dex before that and they didn't learn from those either. This is the game they appear to want, even when no-one else does. In their minds, their is nothing to learn.
Exalted for speaking the truth. This is spot on; they don't even realize there's a problem and dismiss any criticism as people not in their target demographic anyways and therefore can be dismissed as just fringe whining. The fact that they don't accept or acknowledge anything other than praise and adulation is the most troubling because it shos they live in their own little bubble and are oblivious to everything around them.
The phrase "Let them eat cake" springs to mind here.
Okay AtoMaki it's obvious you hate the codex and that is fine. Tau has synergy but units like the Riptide and Missilesides don't need much help... That's why people don't like this codex, there's no cheese. One example of synergy is synapse. And btw the Crone is Ld10 so it'll do fine by its lonesome.
Dozer Blades wrote: Okay AtoMaki it's obvious you hate the codex and that is fine.
Man, I would love to hate the codex, but I can't. It is not a bad codex per see. Just a very unimaginative and blank one.
Dozer Blades wrote: Tau has synergy but units like the Riptide and Missilesides don't need much help...
You don't know the Tau codex that much, don't you? The Riptides and the Missilesides are nothing without a Buffmander, markerlight support, a Fire Warrior Castle or other derp-magnet, units that can lend a hand with Overwatch (usually other Missilesides/Riptides) and maybe a Farseer.
That's why people don't like this codex, there's no cheese.
There is cheese in the codex: both the Shooty Monster Smash and the "Pressure Bullet" are rather cheesy setups. It is just one thing that they are also boring like hell.
Dozer Blades wrote: Okay AtoMaki it's obvious you hate the codex and that is fine.
Man, I would love to hate the codex, but I can't. It is not a bad codex per see. Just a very unimaginative and blank one.
Dozer Blades wrote: Tau has synergy but units like the Riptide and Missilesides don't need much help...
You don't know the Tau codex that much, don't you? The Riptides and the Missilesides are nothing without a Buffmander, markerlight support, a Fire Warrior Castle or other derp-magnet, units that can lend a hand with Overwatch (usually other Missilesides/Riptides) and maybe a Farseer.
That's why people don't like this codex, there's no cheese.
There is cheese in the codex: both the Shooty Monster Smash and the "Pressure Bullet" are rather cheesy setups. It is just one thing that they are also boring like hell.
Dozer Blades wrote: Okay AtoMaki it's obvious you hate the codex and that is fine.
Man, I would love to hate the codex, but I can't. It is not a bad codex per see. Just a very unimaginative and blank one.
Dozer Blades wrote: Tau has synergy but units like the Riptide and Missilesides don't need much help...
You don't know the Tau codex that much, don't you? The Riptides and the Missilesides are nothing without a Buffmander, markerlight support, a Fire Warrior Castle or other derp-magnet, units that can lend a hand with Overwatch (usually other Missilesides/Riptides) and maybe a Farseer.
That's why people don't like this codex, there's no cheese.
There is cheese in the codex: both the Shooty Monster Smash and the "Pressure Bullet" are rather cheesy setups. It is just one thing that they are also boring like hell.
You mean, the ability that punishes you when you don't have it?
I think that it is becoming apparent that Dozer Blades doesn't have the Tyranid Codex or doesn't play Tyranids....
There is nothing synergistic about Tyranids, that is the pitch that GW is giving them in order to make them seem appealing and apparently people are buying it. Dozer you keep saying things implying that everyone wants a new Tau/Eldar codex but no one in this thread has said something to that extent, all the criticism of the book is coming from how boring it is and how uninspired the rules are.
Let's talk for a minute about Mawlocs, a S6 AP2 pie plate that effectively has reroll to wound that can only be used two times a game on average. That is nothing impressive, so look at it's stats. T6 3+ save SOUNDS great but...A3 WS3, so he isn't gonna be doing much outside of that pie plate every other turn. This isn't accounting for the fact that he scatters full distance which can be mitigated by a lictor as everyone is saying but...an opponent who doesn't see THAT coming from a mile away before deployment is even done has other problems. Lictors aren't survivable enough to be that close to the enemy and not get slaughtered. Plus running a lictor means less Zoanthropes and Venomthropes so why take the time to do it? If you REALLY want an AP2 pie plate just run the Exocrine, he is better than the Mawloc in every way really.
There is only one "lesson" that GW is even interested in.
Did the new Nid codex make us money? If yes, job well done and life goes on. If no, well, what can we do to make the next codex release make us money.
That is the business lesson. The other minimal factors like does the army play on the table top? If yes, well done. If no, look to main question and depending on if it made money or not the answer very well might be who cares.
Its a bit of a flow chart. GW does not care about power levels, they do not care about perceived useless units. They do not care how badly X codex can beat up Y codex. All they care about is did the book and models sell enough to recoup development costs.
Yeah the LE books may not have sold out. But Nids are a niche army. I cant see a single reason why someone who doesn't play nids would even want to buy one, in fact I think most people who don't play Nids would even buy the normal codex just because of price. Things are different with the more popular armies, because the curiousity factor kicks in because you might go in that direction sometime.
Jayden63 wrote: There is only one "lesson" that GW is even interested in.
Did the new Nid codex make us money? If yes, job well done and life goes on. If no, well, what can we do to make the next codex release make us money.
That is the business lesson. The other minimal factors like does the army play on the table top? If yes, well done. If no, look to main question and depending on if it made money or not the answer very well might be who cares.
Its a bit of a flow chart. GW does not care about power levels, they do not care about perceived useless units. They do not care how badly X codex can beat up Y codex. All they care about is did the book and models sell enough to recoup development costs.
Yeah the LE books may not have sold out. But Nids are a niche army. I cant see a single reason why someone who doesn't play nids would even want to buy one, in fact I think most people who don't play Nids would even buy the normal codex just because of price. Things are different with the more popular armies, because the curiousity factor kicks in because you might go in that direction sometime.
If that's the metric they use, they've failed. Look at any of the stats they've provided us: the nid codex is one of the worst selling ebooks, is the only army to have not sold out the limited codices (even in the UK, their primary market!) and I'm yet to see most of the new boxes leave the shelves of my local store. These are all pretty good indications that it's a failure, again. As for niche army, they're not at all. In fact, they've been fairly headline in the past, pretty much from space hulk through to the release of assault on black reach. I know way more people owning nids than any other army, excluding marine variants. This happened in 5e, and they still didn't learn, yet in 4e they were the most popular army in my area by far and when Space Hulk was rereleased, EVERYONE wanted a copy. This is not an army which should sell badly, yet it has.
Basically, what I'm saying is GW doesn't appear to have a "metric", they just look at sales and decide certain armies aren't worth the effort as they don't generate profit. At no point do they question themselves. We know this, because at the release of DE and Necrons, the designers admitted it at gamesday; those armies only got updated due to them being the authors passions. They will learn nothing from this.
Dozer Blades wrote: Okay AtoMaki it's obvious you hate the codex and that is fine.
Man, I would love to hate the codex, but I can't. It is not a bad codex per see. Just a very unimaginative and blank one.
Dozer Blades wrote: Tau has synergy but units like the Riptide and Missilesides don't need much help...
You don't know the Tau codex that much, don't you? The Riptides and the Missilesides are nothing without a Buffmander, markerlight support, a Fire Warrior Castle or other derp-magnet, units that can lend a hand with Overwatch (usually other Missilesides/Riptides) and maybe a Farseer.
That's why people don't like this codex, there's no cheese.
There is cheese in the codex: both the Shooty Monster Smash and the "Pressure Bullet" are rather cheesy setups. It is just one thing that they are also boring like hell.
You mean, the ability that punishes you when you don't have it?
I think that it is becoming apparent that Dozer Blades doesn't have the Tyranid Codex or doesn't play Tyranids....
There is nothing synergistic about Tyranids, that is the pitch that GW is giving them in order to make them seem appealing and apparently people are buying it. Dozer you keep saying things implying that everyone wants a new Tau/Eldar codex but no one in this thread has said something to that extent, all the criticism of the book is coming from how boring it is and how uninspired the rules are.
Let's talk for a minute about Mawlocs, a S6 AP2 pie plate that effectively has reroll to wound that can only be used two times a game on average. That is nothing impressive, so look at it's stats. T6 3+ save SOUNDS great but...A3 WS3, so he isn't gonna be doing much outside of that pie plate every other turn. This isn't accounting for the fact that he scatters full distance which can be mitigated by a lictor as everyone is saying but...an opponent who doesn't see THAT coming from a mile away before deployment is even done has other problems. Lictors aren't survivable enough to be that close to the enemy and not get slaughtered. Plus running a lictor means less Zoanthropes and Venomthropes so why take the time to do it? If you REALLY want an AP2 pie plate just run the Exocrine, he is better than the Mawloc in every way really.
Well it totally depends on the rest of your army. The good things about Mawlocs is, that they are cheap. Yes, theire demage output isnt overwhelming but they are still MCs with 3 S10 attacks on the charge. So after the arrival you can kill some tanks.
If youre playing a fast CC army lictors are great distraction units. I run 3 single lictors. After my first turn, the enemy has to decide between a lot of units, that will get into CC next turn and some lone lictors principally not worth to shoot at. But if you think of your units getting bunched up in CC and you know that mawlocs are coming up the following turns without scattering, you cant ignore them. I think you can call it some sort of synergy. I know there are not many lists that can run 3 single lictors, cause they need the elite slots, but I can. Zoanthropes and Venomthropes are just to slow to keep up with the rest of the army.
The exocrine might deliver more pie plates than the mawloc, but they wont force the enemy to shoot my lictors and cost 30 Points more.
Dozer Blades you clearly do not play the Tyranid dex or are a new dex hopper trying to justify your purchase - to say that you get a feel of synergistic units while building a list is unbelievable and as such I do not believe it.
I think at best you are mistaking list requirements and units that need the support of others to even function as synergy between the army. Needing to take Synapse for your Exocrine to shoot like it should, isn't a synergistic way to get the most out of it, it's merely an additional cost to the unit. If the Exocrine was balanced and costed as a unit that was out of synapse all the time (e.g. costed 80 pts) then taking Synapse to fix his big flaw would be synergy. As this is not at all how they are balanced, the fact that you need to also take Synapse to make him play the way he is balanced is additional costing.
Dozer Blades wrote: Most of the people who were playing Nids in 6th edition prior to the new codex are upset about the loss of Biomancy. IB was not issue due to Tervigon spam and now the Tervigon has been nerfed. I think the new codex is quite good - you have to be willing to try new things.
Oh, very nice of you to sum up and generalize the opinion of a group of people you are not a part of, with in an incorrect summary and no real concept of why this dex is badly written. Thanks, I'll be sure to make note of it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I will say though that the new Mawloc is in my opinion the most cost effective unit in either book. I would take an army of nothing but Mawlocs if I could.
I personally doubt that GW has learned any sort of lesson. But, I think that the problem with Nids is in lack of units and options, NOT lost psychic powers, or in synapse. The codex requires synapse to function at top efficiency. There are however good synapse units that I would frankly take anyways. Tervigons are good without synapse, and with it are still a must have. Flyrants are a must, as are Zoanthropes. Take some of these, and you can make units like the exocrine worthwhile. Tyranids are not a broken army, but they are useable. However, they require the most thought in pre-game and list building because of all the weaknesses you must cover up.
SHUPPET wrote: Dozer Blades you clearly do not play the Tyranid dex or are a new dex hopper trying to justify your purchase - to say that you get a feel of synergistic units while building a list is unbelievable and as such I do not believe it.
I think at best you are mistaking list requirements and units that need the support of others to even function as synergy between the army. Needing to take Synapse for your Exocrine to shoot like it should, isn't a synergistic way to get the most out of it, it's merely an additional cost to the unit. If the Exocrine was balanced and costed as a unit that was out of synapse all the time (e.g. costed 80 pts) then taking Synapse to fix his big flaw would be synergy. As this is not at all how they are balanced, the fact that you need to also take Synapse to make him play the way he is balanced is additional costing.
Except in the example of Exocrine, it barely cares if it's in Synapse. As a Fearless MC with Hunt IB, if it fails it's test it still gets to move (if it wants to) and shoot...it just cannot run during the shooting phase, nor will it get to assault (not the biggest penalty for this particular model). The only real issue is it has to shoot at the CLOSEST enemy unit...which may be a drag. Either way, it's not the end of the world.
Dozer Blades wrote: Most of the people who were playing Nids in 6th edition prior to the new codex are upset about the loss of Biomancy. IB was not issue due to Tervigon spam and now the Tervigon has been nerfed. I think the new codex is quite good - you have to be willing to try new things.
Actually I feel Dozer Blades made an accurate assessment there. People are STILL complaining about the loss of Biomancy, and it's not hard to connect the dots between people being bummed out that the build they were using (tervigon spam) is no longer viable because the core unit of the build (the tervigon) got beat the death with a nerf bat.
Shuppet, it's clearly your thing to down the Tyranid book at each and every opportunity. I get it...it was shoddily written and didn't address simple issues like fixing the Trygon's Subterranean Assault (gah! so annoying!). That doesn't mean that someone can't say something positive about the Tyranid Codex. You CAN let one slide every now and again...
I have been playing Tyranids for over the past three editions. I attended a major event in the US and went 5-1-1 ending up in the top 25 out of over 200 players. Sorry I don't drink your p*ss tasting koolaid. I have beaten eldar and Tau with the new codex and will bring my tendril to a major event this year. Come on in the water is fine.
SHUPPET wrote: Dozer Blades you clearly do not play the Tyranid dex or are a new dex hopper trying to justify your purchase - to say that you get a feel of synergistic units while building a list is unbelievable and as such I do not believe it.
I think at best you are mistaking list requirements and units that need the support of others to even function as synergy between the army. Needing to take Synapse for your Exocrine to shoot like it should, isn't a synergistic way to get the most out of it, it's merely an additional cost to the unit. If the Exocrine was balanced and costed as a unit that was out of synapse all the time (e.g. costed 80 pts) then taking Synapse to fix his big flaw would be synergy. As this is not at all how they are balanced, the fact that you need to also take Synapse to make him play the way he is balanced is additional costing.
Except in the example of Exocrine, it barely cares if it's in Synapse. As a Fearless MC with Hunt IB, if it fails it's test it still gets to move (if it wants to) and shoot...it just cannot run during the shooting phase, nor will it get to assault (not the biggest penalty for this particular model). The only real issue is it has to shoot at the CLOSEST enemy unit...which may be a drag. Either way, it's not the end of the world.
Dozer Blades wrote: Most of the people who were playing Nids in 6th edition prior to the new codex are upset about the loss of Biomancy. IB was not issue due to Tervigon spam and now the Tervigon has been nerfed. I think the new codex is quite good - you have to be willing to try new things.
Actually I feel Dozer Blades made an accurate assessment there. People are STILL complaining about the loss of Biomancy, and it's not hard to connect the dots between people being bummed out that the build they were using (tervigon spam) is no longer viable because the core unit of the build (the tervigon) got beat the death with a nerf bat.
Shuppet, it's clearly your thing to down the Tyranid book at each and every opportunity. I get it...it was shoddily written and didn't address simple issues like fixing the Trygon's Subterranean Assault (gah! so annoying!). That doesn't mean that someone can't say something positive about the Tyranid Codex. You CAN let one slide every now and again...
I like this. There are units you can take that minimize the need to IB. Crones, Exos, Tyrannos, etc. And biomancy in this 'dex wouldn't really help much. I honestly would rather take the Nid powers in most cases. I agree with Dozer and you in most cases, but not in one of them. The Tervigon has been nerfed, but it is still a worthy choice. Gants are fine as a "tax" but it is still a t6 6 wounds MC! For scoring it is well worth it and gives a much needed tough synapse unit, I think at least one is a must.
Dozer Blades wrote: I have been playing Tyranids for over the past three editions. I attended a major event in the US and went 5-1-1 ending up in the top 25 out of over 200 players. Sorry I don't drink your p*ss tasting koolaid. I have beaten eldar and Tau with the new codex and will bring my tendril to a major event this year. Come on in the water is fine.
Well that is great, then start supporting your assertions rather than just throwing them out there and expecting people to have a change of heart.
I still play my Tyranids, the book is of a decent power level, I pretty much haven't lost a game with the new dex, I still run my Tervigons, but why are you arguing that this book isn't just terrible? Why is it acceptable to you that so many units are useless, so many units are poorly though out, so many special rules make no sense and are in practice useless?
MasterOfGaunts pointed out how they liked Mawlocs and pointed out how they use them, I still disagree and think that even in a fast CC army there are better choices than Mawlocs but at least they made their case.
All I am asking is why it is okay for GW to release a product that is so half assed. Do you contend that this codex was well thought out? If so, why? You talk about synergy but what synergy are you talking about? I don't give a damn about the power level of the codex because I don't plan on attending any large scale tournaments for this laughably balanced game, I just want a codex, like the Eldar/Tau codices doesn't have so many units that are just terrible. I think that the C:CSM book is bad for the same reason, at least they have enough viable units that you can make multiple list that can do decently. Tyranids are relegated to some serious monobuild just because of our synapse options and their cost, we suffer from some truely terrible design and I just don't understand why you are okay with that.
@jifel: I'm with ya on the Tervigon not being unplayable...I was only referring to spamming them, as many did by the end of the last codex's run. I personally have never been a fan of using Tervigon, so their nerf didn't effect me whatsoever, but many people putting together tournament Nids lists with the new codex agree with you that one single troop tervigon is almost a must.
Voidwraith wrote: @jifel: I'm with ya on the Tervigon not being unplayable...I was only referring to spamming them, as many did by the end of the last codex's run. I personally have never been a fan of using Tervigon, so their nerf didn't effect me whatsoever, but many people putting together tournament Nids lists with the new codex agree with you that one single troop tervigon is almost a must.
In that case, I agree exactly! I admit I was guilty of spamming Tervigons in 6th... However, three Tervigons of old (thank the Hive I put in magnets) has left me with a great position for the new book. One Tervigon and two Tyrannofex! Tervi-spam as a list has indeed been nerfed into the ground, but the unit itself now has a new, different role solely as a backfield supporter with tough scoring synapse and extra units when absolutely needed.
@A_S
As to the codex itself, I think the quality of the codex is very poor. No one disagrees there. However, bad codex does NOT equal a bad competitive army. If you don't wish to play competitive, then that's your choice, and it isn't a "wrong" one. The quality of a book is your decision then, but if you only play for fun then a positive view may help. Lost options will not though, sadly. As for competitive, I think the book will do just fine. I've gotten few tests in, but I should have two games next week and a tournament in less than a month, I fully intend to put the naysayers to bed. It is a pretty balanced book that stands between Marines and Daemons in overall power level, in my opinion. But, bearing in mind that it can hard counter Daemons, I would say it is only truly below Taudar in overall power. However, Taudar is not only powerful at the moment, but also a hard counter, making it very far below Taudar, whereas Daemons can potentially topple them. So, between Marines and Daemons is my final placement on the power scale.
I for one never spammed Tervigons, I got around the need to do so by fielding Ymgarl Genestealers and units in Mycetic Spores, which they killed and thus killed my entire playstyle.
Take Codex: Space Marines, it is a codex full of options and different playstyles, it encourages players to find different ways to play Space Marines. The 6th ed Tyranid codex is entirely the opposite of this, it feels like it was written to punish anyone from deviating from the way they feel Tyranids should be played. It is this harsh restrictiveness that people dislike about the book, not its competitiveness.
"No Biomancy, no mycetic spores, no allies, monobuild only, Final Destination"
PrinceRaven wrote: I for one never spammed Tervigons, I got around the need to do so by fielding Ymgarl Genestealers and units in Mycetic Spores, which they killed and thus killed my entire playstyle.
Take Codex: Space Marines, it is a codex full of options and different playstyles, it encourages players to find different ways to play Space Marines. The 6th ed Tyranid codex is entirely the opposite of this, it feels like it was written to punish anyone from deviating from the way they feel Tyranids should be played. It is this harsh restrictiveness that people dislike about the book, not its competitiveness.
"No Biomancy, no mycetic spores, no allies, monobuild only, Final Destination"
Pretty much. The lack of options is why I'm disappointed in the codex, especially since I had seven units in my army completely removed from existence. SM is far and away the best book this edition overall. I spammed Tervigons, and I'll never claim otherwise or be ashamed of that, but I don't mind the nerf to Tervispam. One is fine for now, and I had an excuse to convert two to Tyrannofex!
MasterOfGaunts pointed out how they liked Mawlocs and pointed out how they use them, I still disagree and think that even in a fast CC army there are better choices than Mawlocs but at least they made their case.
Which one is the better choice also depends on the personal style. I wanted an army that moves quickly, Forces a lot of pressure on the opponent and crushes the enemy in CC. Most other options would reduce the pressure. An exocrine might have a more reliable pieplate, but the enemy can avoid it by spreading its troops, taking cover or just get out of LOS. A mawloc can also deepstrike into CC and CC forces the enemy to bunch up. Yep, i ll hit my own units too, but i dont care about 10 hormagaunts .
So what would be you re option in a fast moving CC unit?
Yeah the LE books may not have sold out. But Nids are a niche army. I cant see a single reason why someone who doesn't play nids would even want to buy one, in fact I think most people who don't play Nids would even buy the normal codex just because of price. Things are different with the more popular armies, because the curiousity factor kicks in because you might go in that direction sometime.
Niche army? Tyranids used to be one of the best selling Xenos armies above tall the other Xenos at one point, it's why they got constant updates per edition like SM.
MasterOfGaunts pointed out how they liked Mawlocs and pointed out how they use them, I still disagree and think that even in a fast CC army there are better choices than Mawlocs but at least they made their case.
Which one is the better choice also depends on the personal style. I wanted an army that moves quickly, Forces a lot of pressure on the opponent and crushes the enemy in CC. Most other options would reduce the pressure. An exocrine might have a more reliable pieplate, but the enemy can avoid it by spreading its troops, taking cover or just get out of LOS. A mawloc can also deepstrike into CC and CC forces the enemy to bunch up. Yep, i ll hit my own units too, but i dont care about 10 hormagaunts .
So what would be you re option in a fast moving CC unit?
I would say Trygons/Trygon Primes, they can Deep Strike into the enemy line as well, shoot the turn they come in, then wreck things in melee. They aren't as cheap but I think you will get more bang for your buck. Without knowing your entire list though I wouldn't know exactly what to suggest. If you are points strapped then I have to ask what you are spending your points on seeing as how everything outside of the heavy slot is dirt cheap lol.
Hell a brood of carnifex with adrenal glands are fast enough if you are looking for some swarmy CC that can make it across the table quickly. If you are looking for purely DS and Infiltrating with Flyrants, Lictors, Genestealers, Gargoyles, and Raveners then I can see why you might take Mawlocs but even just a single Trygon might be a better investment. I am not saying Mawlocs are terrible or trying to dissuade anyone from using them but I think their job can be done better with other choices. Back field disruption and AP2 are not lacking in this book.
In over all power I would put this codex right around C:CSM, sans Heldrake, and DA. Below C:SM but not by much, bellow Daemons, even though Tyranids can counter them Daemons are still going to do better in competitive play, and far bellow Tau/Eldar. That is only the 6th codices, against most of the 5th codices I think Tyranids will do just fine.
Dozer at this point it is obvious to me that you have no interest in conversation, you just want to talk so I am going to let it drop now.
Davor wrote:It's more of battered wife syndrome. You feel abused and unappreciated, GW spits in our faces, but we love them so much we can't leave.
Wow.
You know, you might as well go all the way here. People who like GW are like people who voted for the Nazi party in 1936. They enabled a system that brought misery to uncounted multitudes.
Yeah the LE books may not have sold out. But Nids are a niche army. I cant see a single reason why someone who doesn't play nids would even want to buy one, in fact I think most people who don't play Nids would even buy the normal codex just because of price. Things are different with the more popular armies, because the curiosity factor kicks in because you might go in that direction sometime.
Niche army? Tyranids used to be one of the best selling Xenos armies above tall the other Xenos at one point, it's why they got constant updates per edition like SM.
At one point. If Nid players on Dakka are to be believed the last codex sucked and the one before that was only moderately useful. From my personal experience (which is all anyone can go by) Nid armies are few and far in between. And like you said, they may have been popular at one point, but I wonder if that truly is how it is now.
Yeah the LE books may not have sold out. But Nids are a niche army. I cant see a single reason why someone who doesn't play nids would even want to buy one, in fact I think most people who don't play Nids would even buy the normal codex just because of price. Things are different with the more popular armies, because the curiosity factor kicks in because you might go in that direction sometime.
Niche army? Tyranids used to be one of the best selling Xenos armies above tall the other Xenos at one point, it's why they got constant updates per edition like SM.
At one point. If Nid players on Dakka are to be believed the last codex sucked and the one before that was only moderately useful. From my personal experience (which is all anyone can go by) Nid armies are few and far in between. And like you said, they may have been popular at one point, but I wonder if that truly is how it is now.
It's always hard to say when and if things were popular, in my area Tyranids were reasonably popular in 2nd edition, maybe due to Space Hulk, and then in 3rd edition after the current Gaunts and Warriors were first released.
Funny story, sorta relevant to the whole "imbalanced codex" thing.
A few years ago, I went into a local gaming store looking to order some straight-edged dice after I read that article about how GW and Chessex dice are statistically biased towards rolling 1s.
After making an ass of myself trying to order something that doesn't exist (the dice I'd been looking at online had been listed as straight edge dice when they are not), the guy asked if it was for Warhammer 40k, after I mentioned the article. I said yes, and he pointed out that if I really cared about balance enough to order straight edge dice, I wouldn't be playing Warhammer 40k in the first place.
Naw wrote: What lesson is there to learn? To make a third OP codex after Tau and Eldar?
This guy gets it. Its a solid codex actually. Its not as easy or obvious as Elder or Tau. If those two Codex's didn't exist. It wouldn't be an issue. I play Elder and I'll be the first to point out the real issue. 2 Codex's rule and a combo of them is that much better.
I don't get the GW hate I really don't. I view it the same way I view a cheating GF. If she is so awful you'll leave her no matter the cost. If you don't however you don't get to complain about her.
What's this pressure bullet? Google-fu is weak today.
Jeanstealers, Gargoyles, Raveners, Mawlocks and the Deathleaper Formation. You load 'em up, fire the whole bunch towards the general direction of your opponent and pray that you have enough stuff to reach the enemy. it is easily one of the most annoying armies out there because it can catch you flat-footed and then you are doomed unless you play a min/maxed firebase Tau.
Actually I feel Dozer Blades made an accurate assessment there. People are STILL complaining about the loss of Biomancy, and it's not hard to connect the dots between people being bummed out that the build they were using (tervigon spam) is no longer viable because the core unit of the build (the tervigon) got beat the death with a nerf bat.
Shuppet, it's clearly your thing to down the Tyranid book at each and every opportunity. I get it...it was shoddily written and didn't address simple issues like fixing the Trygon's Subterranean Assault (gah! so annoying!). That doesn't mean that someone can't say something positive about the Tyranid Codex. You CAN let one slide every now and again...
You act like I started a thread or even came in here to rag on the nid dex. Dozer Blades made an extremely incorrect generalization of why some core nid players are displeased, which is why he has been contested from that point since. While it is true that there is some people moaning for no other reason than the root of their problem being that their monobuild tervi spam list was nerfed and now they have to buy new models to compile their new monobuild, I personally feel these are the people whose opinions we should not be focusing on. The people with legit complaints about the dex care no more about Biomancy than they do about the fact that our personal table comes not even close, or that we have extremely restrictive options for troops, or that Synapse is even more harmful to you before than before and almost all Synapse creatures recieved redundant nerfs, not just Tervigons but Zoanthropes, Tyranid Prime and Tyrants, as well as Swarmlord being nerfed into oblivion. Just as disappointing as the changes we did receive are the changes that we didn't, such as Raveners and Warriors being just as trash, Rippers securing their unplayable state right next to Pyro's, no grenades for Genies, a bunch of other unmentionable units in slots like Fast Attack and Elite, and this isn't even to mention the 4 units we lost from the last dex.
So no, it's not fair to say that "Most of the people who were playing Nids in 6th edition prior to the new codex are upset about the loss of Biomancy. IB was not issue due to Tervigon spam and now the Tervigon has been nerfed." There is legitimate reasons that people dislike the dex, and yes you are right in saying that they've all been said before (by me and others), which is even more reason for me to come in here and say that boxing us in with all the Tervigonspamming crybears is not only inn accurate but deliberately shortsighted.
Oh, and I'm sure you knew the Exocrine was just an example. I knew some pedantic whiteknight was going to pick apart at whichever unit I chose and the specifics of its relation to synapse and the like, I really just picked the Exocrine because the model is sitting between my monitor and my keyboard right now and as such was the first non-synapse creature I thought of, just substitute Exocrine with one of the many other IB units in the dex if you don't feel the example is relevant enough.
Blacksails wrote:The quality of a codex is not measured solely by how well it stands up next to the current power codex.
Exactly. You shouldn't be comparing new nids against tau, you should be comparing them against DA, SM, and CSM, which were done correctly (well, not fluffwise, but that's another matter). It's better that they make the game reasonably balanced and just fix the one or two codices that are overpowered, rather than forcing real codex creep where there wasn't before.
6e SM is great, but the other two range ftom dully mediocre (DA) to crap (CSM), the latter of which has the worst internal balance in 6E.
I don't agree with that the problem lies with eldar and tau. In fact, if you notice, both codices balance against each other quite well, and 'Crons hang with them well, too.
The reality is that the top codices aren't broken so much as the lower tier ones are either poorly written (nids, csm), or suffer from the edition itself, which is also poorly written in many ways.
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I always laugh when I see people cry about eldar, daemons tau and necrons and call them "i win buttons".
If these four armies are oh so broken and overpowered, than someone explain to me why they aren't "i win buttons" when played against each other?
I would say Trygons/Trygon Primes, they can Deep Strike into the enemy line as well, shoot the turn they come in, then wreck things in melee. They aren't as cheap but I think you will get more bang for your buck. Without knowing your entire list though I wouldn't know exactly what to suggest. If you are points strapped then I have to ask what you are spending your points on seeing as how everything outside of the heavy slot is dirt cheap lol.
Well Points arent the Problems, but I cant see why I should put a Trygon over a Mawloc. The trygon gets fleet, +2WS and +3A and a 6 shot 5/5 on BS3. The Mawloc got its 6/2 pieplate, hit and run and is 50 Points cheaper (and makes lictors more threatening).
The 6 shots arent that good. It would kill less than 1 marine on average, while the pie plate can take on terminators and broadsides and can be fired into CC. Its totally funny to tarpit expensie units like terminators, sternguard etc in CC with some cheap hormagaunts, let them bunch up and fire a Mawloc right into it.
Fleet isnt that necessary for a deepstriking MC.
The trygon itself is generally better in CC with its 6 attacks and WS5, but it also depends on which target you re picking. Against vehicles hes got only 1 smash attack more and WS doesn t count here. It also can be tarpitted, while the mawloc has hit and run. The point is, I use mawlocs as a support unit. Theire CC targets are vehicles and units like broadsides. A trygon wouldnt be much better for this job and would cost me a distraction-lictor.
Carnifexes have to run across the field. So they can be easily shot with just 4hp before doing anything. With Adrenalin they might be a little bit faster, but then they are just 5 Points cheaper than the mawloc. In CC they arent that much better. S9 wouldnt make a difference against most other units except MCs. They got +1A but -2I and -2hp. Dont see any benefit in taking a fex instead.
Other thing: What should I take instead of the lictors, cause without mawloc they arent that scary. Venomthropes are to slow and there is a lot of cover ignoring stuff out there. Only thing i can think of are Zoanthropes for some more psychic powers but they wouldnt fit into the army very well.
I was as bummed as anyone when Genestealers didn't get some sort of assault grenades (I own 40 of them). Then I realized that a pinned unit in cover doesn't force the assaulting unit's initiative down to 1. Seeing as how Broodlords always get "The Horror," which does a decent job of pinning most units, I feel this was GWs way of throwing the genestealers a bone. It also makes sense thematically (more so than genestealers lobbing assault grenades).
Which would be fantastic if (a) it was reliable, (b) you aren't forced to have already been in line of sight to the unit with your squishy Genestealer unit the turn before, and (c) it wasn't ignored by Fearless, Daemonic Instability and Walkers.
What's wrong with giving Genestealers an "Ambush Hunters" special rule that acts like assault grenades? It's not like it would make them overpowered, just slightly less mediocre.
Codex balance in 40K is a myth, going all the way back to the first ones in 2nd edition. At best the people who think a codex is perfectly balanced are the ones that play that army and think that it works positively towards how they play that army, or if it lets them do something great. It's just that there are as many people who think a codex crapped all over their army. I have personally experienced many versions of both viewpoints over the years.
@Shuppet: how on earth was every synapse creature nerfed? You list Tyrants as an example and yet those got a stat boost and a 30 point drop for the standard (best) build. Primes did indeed take a nerf, and Tervigons a minor debuff, but they were the best unit in the game before! Now, they're still worth taking. And Zoanthropes got a boost thanks to points drop and the ability to keep Lance while being a supporter unit with Dominion.
jifel wrote: @Shuppet: how on earth was every synapse creature nerfed? You list Tyrants as an example and yet those got a stat boost and a 30 point drop for the standard (best) build. Primes did indeed take a nerf, and Tervigons a minor debuff, but they were the best unit in the game before! Now, they're still worth taking. And Zoanthropes got a boost thanks to points drop and the ability to keep Lance while being a supporter unit with Dominion.
Tervigons got a minor debuff? They lost:
Access to biomancy
Their Death Spasm takes out a better range of Gaunts, and now is harder hitting too
More expensive
Needs more gaunts to become troops
The reason they were the best before was because What other thing could reasonably compare in the troops slot? Nothing got buffed up to help match it, it was dropped down hard and now things might reasonably match it because it's down to the level of the other weak things.
I'm just going to hope Tyranids are some kind of weird outlier, as most of the codices this edition (Tau, Eldar, Space Marines, Daemons) have been very good, either competitively, flavor-wise, or both. Even Dark Angels and the much-maligned Chaos Space Marine books have some character and some competitive builds in them, even if they suffer from being the first books out the door. Tyranids have just gotten the short end of the stick since the 5th edition codex, and even the 4th edition one was limited in a lot of ways. 6th just made that stick markedly shorter. I feel like a wait and see attitude is the best to take here, and I hope the next codices end up better.
jifel wrote: @Shuppet: how on earth was every synapse creature nerfed? You list Tyrants as an example and yet those got a stat boost and a 30 point drop for the standard (best) build. Primes did indeed take a nerf, and Tervigons a minor debuff, but they were the best unit in the game before! Now, they're still worth taking. And Zoanthropes got a boost thanks to points drop and the ability to keep Lance while being a supporter unit with Dominion.
Tervigons got a minor debuff? They lost:
Access to biomancy
Their Death Spasm takes out a better range of Gaunts, and now is harder hitting too
More expensive
Needs more gaunts to become troops
The reason they were the best before was because What other thing could reasonably compare in the troops slot? Nothing got buffed up to help match it, it was dropped down hard and now things might reasonably match it because it's down to the level of the other weak things.
1. Tervigons were the best troops in the game, not because our other choices were bad. Every army would've killed for that unit.
2. No one is saying that the Tervigon is as good as before. However, let's look at this. Synapse is MUCH more valuable than before, and this is the toughest (but not the most expensive) synapse unit in the book. 30 gants are a great unit to take, this is hardly a bad "tax" and one I would buy even if I ran 0 Tervs. It is still a six wound T6 scoring Monstrous Creature. Does that not mean anything? Buying 3 Tervs and throwing them down your opponents throat is no longer viable, yes, but as a backfield support unit Tervigons are JUST as good as before because they still score, synapse is more valuable, and they can reliably get Dominion for even better synapse. One is a very good investment still.
3.(to everyone) If you do not want to like the new book, fine. But please don't stomp on every glimmer of optimism.
jifel wrote: @Shuppet: how on earth was every synapse creature nerfed? You list Tyrants as an example and yet those got a stat boost and a 30 point drop for the standard (best) build. Primes did indeed take a nerf, and Tervigons a minor debuff, but they were the best unit in the game before! Now, they're still worth taking. And Zoanthropes got a boost thanks to points drop and the ability to keep Lance while being a supporter unit with Dominion.
Tervigons got a minor debuff? They lost:
Access to biomancy
Their Death Spasm takes out a better range of Gaunts, and now is harder hitting too
More expensive
Needs more gaunts to become troops
The reason they were the best before was because What other thing could reasonably compare in the troops slot? Nothing got buffed up to help match it, it was dropped down hard and now things might reasonably match it because it's down to the level of the other weak things.
1. Tervigons were the best troops in the game, not because our other choices were bad. Every army would've killed for that unit.
2. No one is saying that the Tervigon is as good as before. However, let's look at this. Synapse is MUCH more valuable than before, and this is the toughest (but not the most expensive) synapse unit in the book. 30 gants are a great unit to take, this is hardly a bad "tax" and one I would buy even if I ran 0 Tervs. It is still a six wound T6 scoring Monstrous Creature. Does that not mean anything? Buying 3 Tervs and throwing them down your opponents throat is no longer viable, yes, but as a backfield support unit Tervigons are JUST as good as before because they still score, synapse is more valuable, and they can reliably get Dominion for even better synapse. One is a very good investment still.
3.(to everyone) If you do not want to like the new book, fine. But please don't stomp on every glimmer of optimism.
I would be fine with the optimism if it were guided towards the things to be optimistic about, like Exocrines, Biovores, Flyrants, maybe even the Crone and Mawloc as much as ~I~ personally don't like them. But trying to put a bright spin on what happened to Tervigons, they went from being able to carry their own weight to being a unit that is a massive liability that doesn't give you much outside of synapse. Yeah he still spawns scoring troops but that isn't exactly reliable as in my last game my Tervigon rolled tripple ones. I know that is nothing to judge him by but gak like that happens, it was hilarious and we moved on but for such a rule as spawning it can be just as bad as it can be just as good. I STILL don't understand why they took away the ability for Tervigons to give gants around them AG/TS, I can understand biomancy and even the increase to their death spasms, but why take away their ability to buff the unit they were designed to buff?
Truth118 wrote: I think it's a little early to say; the poor selling of the LE nid codex is very telling though and it's not like GW doesn't gauge how their stuff is selling.
What do you think a poor selling LE nid codex says? I see a few possibilities but it would be impossible to pick one. For example it *could* say:
1. Nid players don't really like LE books.
2. LE books in general have been a let down. In other words, people don't think that a fancy dust cover is worth double the cost.
3. People weren't happy with the Nid book.
4. $100 is simply too much for a codex and those who would pay that price already have.
Honestly, it could be ANY of those items or even a combination of them.
Regardless, I personally like the Nid book. I think it's pretty solid and will be around for quite awhile. There were certainly some interesting changes that will require Nid players to figure out a new plan of attack.
new plans of attacking what . if tyrants or crones are unstopable , then the army hasn't delt with demons or the old nids either . mawlocks are nice and cheap , but they still as accurate as other indirect blast , unless someone has a lictor alive and near . Synaps kills the army . Sure if there were ++2 tervigons or tyrants one could play a clamed up wave , but those MC die very fast . 6t6w is not much with +3sv , that is like 6 chaos bikers without jink . Worse of it those are things the nid player can't do a thing about . His opponent will kill the synaps , the best a nid player can do is to run 2 tyrants 2 tervigons 3 solo zoanthropes and hope opponents ignores the zoans long enough for everything to get in to range.
And how does it do that? Well I cant figure it out. There are some cheap units like hormagaunts and termagants that really suffers from it. Most other units either have high Ld or an IB that doesnt really hurt, cause youre unit keeps doing the things they would normally do. Its not that hard to live with IB.
Regardless, I personally like the Nid book. I think it's pretty solid and will be around for quite awhile. There were certainly some interesting changes that will require Nid players to figure out a new plan of attack.
This statement I keep hearing makes me think people didn't know or look at the 5th codex. Nothing really changed except Tervigons, the general codex plays exactly as it did before except the key synapse units are easier to kill due to the loss of biomancy. Does making somethings cheaper make for an "interesting change?" The most succesful list being made right now aren't new, they are just the same as the 5th list so I fail to see how this codex is forcing a "new plan of attack."
Voidwraith wrote: I was as bummed as anyone when Genestealers didn't get some sort of assault grenades (I own 40 of them). Then I realized that a pinned unit in cover doesn't force the assaulting unit's initiative down to 1. Seeing as how Broodlords always get "The Horror," which does a decent job of pinning most units, I feel this was GWs way of throwing the genestealers a bone. It also makes sense thematically (more so than genestealers lobbing assault grenades).
Sorry, but this is a perfect example of making excuses. Throwing genestealers that bone still leaves them as a stupidly unplayable troop choice. Even with Broodlord the unreliability of the unit nowhere near justifies the cost of the unit, you have to roll to cast, roll to hit, they roll to deny, and roll a leadership test, and have to be a non fearless unit for it to even matter. This is no substitute for Fleshhooks (our assault grenades), which make even more sense thematically than the Psychic power and even come on the sprues inside a box of Genestealers.
jifel wrote: @Shuppet: how on earth was every synapse creature nerfed? You list Tyrants as an example and yet those got a stat boost and a 30 point drop for the standard (best) build. Primes did indeed take a nerf, and Tervigons a minor debuff, but they were the best unit in the game before! Now, they're still worth taking. And Zoanthropes got a boost thanks to points drop and the ability to keep Lance while being a supporter unit with Dominion.
Tyrants were nerfed in the sense the walking build is no longer even slightly viable, with the removal of Armored Shell and all his brilliant close combat weapons being turned to trash, and all his rolls of Iron Arm / Warp Speed rolls being turned into rolls of Catalyst / Psychic Scream. The flying one was dropped 30 points and gained a point in BS but also lost its Biomancy, which at best is a sidegrade but more likely a nerf as they still have a similar amount of aggression while Biomancy was pretty important for keeping them alive. An opinion, you may not share it and may not feel the loss of survivability on your 230 pt glass cannon as much as I am, for whatever reason. However, to say Prime's and Tervigon took a minor nerf is beyond ridiculous. The Prime's point cost just about doubled, this is the price he payed to have all his weapon options nerfed and his biomorphs cost up to triple as much? Points to effeciency wise, The Tervigon now tanks most hits worse than the same amount of points put into a unit of Warriors, and no longer gives any bonuses to your actual best troop choice (the Gants) and takes out A LOT of them when he dies making his Synapse a liability to be kept away from your gribblies. He went from being good (far from OP, I never ran more than one - people spammed him because of his versatility) to being something that should probably never see any further play. Tell me more about how a 6W 3+ is an amazing troop choice no matter what they do to it, and I'll tell you how for the same points cost a couple of space marine units are pretty comparable to this with 15 wounds 3+ at a lower toughness, except with far more competitive options and transports than just "spawning gaunts", and are certainly not making waves in the competitive scene. Zoanthrope got a buff in the sense that they got 10 points cheaper, and an extra power that they will never use if they are doing their job, and got a nerf in the fact that they lost pods and became a Brotherhood. Both these things are pretty big and not worth the 10 points saved in choosing whether to take a unit.
At the end of the day, if you honestly think our Synapse is in good shape you are crazy. The one buff you could point out was the buff to Flyrants, great two of them max per list with no more sensible variations for the build anymore, and then a bunch of crappy options forced on the table just to stop your army from eating itself.
Voidwraith wrote: I was as bummed as anyone when Genestealers didn't get some sort of assault grenades (I own 40 of them). Then I realized that a pinned unit in cover doesn't force the assaulting unit's initiative down to 1. Seeing as how Broodlords always get "The Horror," which does a decent job of pinning most units, I feel this was GWs way of throwing the genestealers a bone. It also makes sense thematically (more so than genestealers lobbing assault grenades).
Sorry, but this is a perfect example of making excuses. Throwing genestealers that bone still leaves them as a stupidly unplayable troop choice. Even with Broodlord the unreliability of the unit nowhere near justifies the cost of the unit, you have to roll to cast, roll to hit, they roll to deny, and roll a leadership test, and have to be a non fearless unit for it to even matter. This is no substitute for Fleshhooks (our assault grenades), which make even more sense thematically than the Psychic power and even come on the sprues inside a box of Genestealers.
I'm not making excuses. I'm just taking what they gave the nids and using it. *gasp*
I had a lot more I was going to type, but it's really not worth the effort. Me arguing that the Tyranid codex isn't as bad as people think is similar to that super annoying guy (if you read the thread you'd agree) arguing that Eldar aren't OP. I'll just concede to the wisdom of rampant internet hate and play the bugs the way I feel they can be competitive. It's the best thing to do anyway...
You list Tyrants as an example and yet those got a stat boost and a 30 point drop for the standard (best) build. Primes did indeed take a nerf, and Tervigons a minor debuff, but they were the best unit in the game before! Now, they're still worth taking. And Zoanthropes got a boost thanks to points drop and the ability to keep Lance while being a supporter unit with Dominion.
Wait a minute how can something that just lost biomancy ,have better stats , then it had when it had biomancy to roll on ?
Zoanthropes as anti tank got severly nerfed too , because pods have been taken away from them . But as singles they are nids only options to get cheap synaps .
There are some cheap units like hormagaunts and termagants that really suffers from it. Most other units either have high Ld or an IB that doesnt really hurt, cause youre unit keeps doing the things they would normally do. Its not that hard to live with IB.
You don't always get to play missions where your tyranofex is scoring.
Davor wrote:It's more of battered wife syndrome. You feel abused and unappreciated, GW spits in our faces, but we love them so much we can't leave.
Wow.
You know, you might as well go all the way here. People who like GW are like people who voted for the Nazi party in 1936. They enabled a system that brought misery to uncounted multitudes.
I wouldn't go that far. People say they have been betrayed by GW. So like a cheating spouse. People say they feel like GW spat in their faces so an abusive spouse. But no matter what GW does, people don't quit or as the wife leave their spouse.
With all the crying and complaining going on, if you really hate them that much, it's time to quit. To devote that much energy on a company you don't like, doesn't make really much sense to go on unless you really like them or love them. How else can you explain it? How can you explain you hate someone so much for doing so many bad things or doing you wrong all the time but yet you still stick around.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just reread all the threads here. Now that I think about it, IF GW really have learnt their lesson, we will not really know until say 3 or 6 months from now, since anything being released right now, has already been planned so not many changes could really been made, since everything is/would already been printed and don't see GW recalling all the books to start over again.
Maybe now for the book that haven't been printed yet, can change.
I think the sales at least prove that they do quit GW and a let fewer new people are starting the game . In the 5th specialy when GK and SW came out there was a ton of new players . in the 6th it was mostly vets buying stuff to fix their armies for 6th ed. And I have yet to see someone want to start WFB after hearing that the starting point game is 2250 pts and normal is more like 2500-3000.
How else can you explain it?
That is easy , If I pay a lot of money for an army , I expect to play it for X time . It is the same with non table top games. A game can have awesome grafics and even not suck too in game play , but if I finish it under 20 hours I will be angry . And games are much cheaper , then W40k or WFB . If I had to use up the money I was saving up for almost 3 years working in the fields in germany , then I want at least 3 years of gaming out of it . And if I get the 3 years then I come up with a 0 gain .
jifel wrote: @Shuppet: how on earth was every synapse creature nerfed? You list Tyrants as an example and yet those got a stat boost and a 30 point drop for the standard (best) build. Primes did indeed take a nerf, and Tervigons a minor debuff, but they were the best unit in the game before! Now, they're still worth taking. And Zoanthropes got a boost thanks to points drop and the ability to keep Lance while being a supporter unit with Dominion.
Tyrants were nerfed in the sense the walking build is no longer even slightly viable, with the removal of Armored Shell and all his brilliant close combat weapons being turned to trash, and all his rolls of Iron Arm / Warp Speed rolls being turned into rolls of Catalyst / Psychic Scream. The flying one was dropped 30 points and gained a point in BS but also lost its Biomancy, which at best is a sidegrade but more likely a nerf as they still have a similar amount of aggression while Biomancy was pretty important for keeping them alive. An opinion, you may not share it and may not feel the loss of survivability on your 230 pt glass cannon as much as I am, for whatever reason. However, to say Prime's and Tervigon took a minor nerf is beyond ridiculous. The Prime's point cost just about doubled, this is the price he payed to have all his weapon options nerfed and his biomorphs cost up to triple as much? Points to effeciency wise, The Tervigon now tanks most hits worse than the same amount of points put into a unit of Warriors, and no longer gives any bonuses to your actual best troop choice (the Gants) and takes out A LOT of them when he dies making his Synapse a liability to be kept away from your gribblies. He went from being good (far from OP, I never ran more than one - people spammed him because of his versatility) to being something that should probably never see any further play. Tell me more about how a 6W 3+ is an amazing troop choice no matter what they do to it, and I'll tell you how for the same points cost a couple of space marine units are pretty comparable to this with 15 wounds 3+ at a lower toughness, except with far more competitive options and transports than just "spawning gaunts", and are certainly not making waves in the competitive scene. Zoanthrope got a buff in the sense that they got 10 points cheaper, and an extra power that they will never use if they are doing their job, and got a nerf in the fact that they lost pods and became a Brotherhood. Both these things are pretty big and not worth the 10 points saved in choosing whether to take a unit.
At the end of the day, if you honestly think our Synapse is in good shape you are crazy. The one buff you could point out was the buff to Flyrants, great two of them max per list with no more sensible variations for the build anymore, and then a bunch of crappy options forced on the table just to stop your army from eating itself.
The walking Tyrant build was always inferior to the Flytant, no surprise there. Losing access to Biomancy is not that big of a deal. There were two real powers there that Flyrants liked, Iron Arm and Endurance. Now we get Catalyst (far superior to Endurance) and a host of other powers. While one-on-one none are as good as Iron Arm, the whole of Tyranids is slightly superior to the whole of Biomancy as far as Flyrants go. Yes, Tervigons are worse. Worse doesn't equal bad! They're still useable, just don't barrel them downfield like we used to. Zoanthropes and Flyrants are both cheaper and better than before... let these be your two go-to synapse units. Primes are bad in my mind, but Tervigons have merits if you need more synapse. Also, some people like Trygon Primes and Warriors.
Also, playing off the difference between a Tervigon and Space Marines as "a bit of toughness" is insane. You're calling me crazy?
The one buff you could point out
I pointed out two. Zoanthropes and Flyrants are both better than they were in the last book.
The Tervigon now tanks most hits worse than the same amount of points put into a unit of Warriors
Why don't you take Warriors then? They're scoring, and they're synapse. 10 points per wound of T4 scoring plus bubbles of fearless is not bad at all.
There are options in this book, but not everything in the book is an option. Accept that. But, if you refuse to even consider anyone else's arguments as anything besides "crazy" and just want to hate the book, fine. Go ahead. But someone wants to get ideas on how to make Tyranids work, please don't try to shut down every piece of optimism.
There are some cheap units like hormagaunts and termagants that really suffers from it. Most other units either have high Ld or an IB that doesnt really hurt, cause youre unit keeps doing the things they would normally do. Its not that hard to live with IB.
You don't always get to play missions where your tyranofex is scoring.
Thats not the point. The Point is some people pretend synapse affects the hole army and it doesnt. There are just a few units who really suffer from it and you have to buy a synapse for them. If you dont want to do that, take units that dont care about Synapse. Genestealers and Warriors are also scoring units and dont care about synapse. You can also put a prime into a large unit of gants and keep them in cover somewhere in the middle of the field... there are so many ways you just have to try something new.
jifel wrote: @Shuppet: how on earth was every synapse creature nerfed? You list Tyrants as an example and yet those got a stat boost and a 30 point drop for the standard (best) build. Primes did indeed take a nerf, and Tervigons a minor debuff, but they were the best unit in the game before! Now, they're still worth taking. And Zoanthropes got a boost thanks to points drop and the ability to keep Lance while being a supporter unit with Dominion.
Tyrants were nerfed in the sense the walking build is no longer even slightly viable, with the removal of Armored Shell and all his brilliant close combat weapons being turned to trash, and all his rolls of Iron Arm / Warp Speed rolls being turned into rolls of Catalyst / Psychic Scream. The flying one was dropped 30 points and gained a point in BS but also lost its Biomancy, which at best is a sidegrade but more likely a nerf as they still have a similar amount of aggression while Biomancy was pretty important for keeping them alive. An opinion, you may not share it and may not feel the loss of survivability on your 230 pt glass cannon as much as I am, for whatever reason. However, to say Prime's and Tervigon took a minor nerf is beyond ridiculous. The Prime's point cost just about doubled, this is the price he payed to have all his weapon options nerfed and his biomorphs cost up to triple as much? Points to effeciency wise, The Tervigon now tanks most hits worse than the same amount of points put into a unit of Warriors, and no longer gives any bonuses to your actual best troop choice (the Gants) and takes out A LOT of them when he dies making his Synapse a liability to be kept away from your gribblies. He went from being good (far from OP, I never ran more than one - people spammed him because of his versatility) to being something that should probably never see any further play. Tell me more about how a 6W 3+ is an amazing troop choice no matter what they do to it, and I'll tell you how for the same points cost a couple of space marine units are pretty comparable to this with 15 wounds 3+ at a lower toughness, except with far more competitive options and transports than just "spawning gaunts", and are certainly not making waves in the competitive scene. Zoanthrope got a buff in the sense that they got 10 points cheaper, and an extra power that they will never use if they are doing their job, and got a nerf in the fact that they lost pods and became a Brotherhood. Both these things are pretty big and not worth the 10 points saved in choosing whether to take a unit.
At the end of the day, if you honestly think our Synapse is in good shape you are crazy. The one buff you could point out was the buff to Flyrants, great two of them max per list with no more sensible variations for the build anymore, and then a bunch of crappy options forced on the table just to stop your army from eating itself.
The walking Tyrant build was always inferior to the Flytant, no surprise there. Losing access to Biomancy is not that big of a deal. There were two real powers there that Flyrants liked, Iron Arm and Endurance. Now we get Catalyst (far superior to Endurance) and a host of other powers. While one-on-one none are as good as Iron Arm, the whole of Tyranids is slightly superior to the whole of Biomancy as far as Flyrants go. Yes, Tervigons are worse. Worse doesn't equal bad! They're still useable, just don't barrel them downfield like we used to. Zoanthropes and Flyrants are both cheaper and better than before... let these be your two go-to synapse units. Primes are bad in my mind, but Tervigons have merits if you need more synapse. Also, some people like Trygon Primes and Warriors.
Biomancy isn't a big deal? Walking Tyrant always inferior to the Flyrant so not a big deal either? only TWO powers we liked from the table? Man you have a severely skewed opinion of the last dex, it seems strikingly shallow as though you have read a lot but not actually played it enough (or at all) to process and put into perspective the information you've read. Yes Flyrants were more playable than walkers in the past dex, but it was not because of some drastic difference of power. It was because the style of play was much more suited to a faster aggressive style, eg Trygons (overcosted now thanks to ScyTal nerf), Devilgaunts in a pod for your troops, Doom, Deepstriking Thropes, etc, so a walking Tyrant would see very little use granting Old Adversary to your Tervigons instead of your threats and not having its guns where the rest of your army is. In this dex a footslogging army is much more valid and as such so WOULD be the walking Tyrant, with Tyrannofex's being much more playable (carnifexes too), Exocrines, Hormagant buff, the Leaper, etc. All this stuff aside walking Tyrant STILL was played last dex, and will NOT be played in this one. The fact that close combat Tyrant is a waste of points now actually is pretty big, and the fact even with the valid (read: inevitable) walking style of army lists in the new dex he is still too badly nerfed to see play says something. I don't even want to mention how bad the OA nerf was for Hive Tyrant. I know you weren't the guy talking about Synergy, but that nerf is a perfect example of Synergy being taken OUT of the dex.
Yes Iron Arm was the best roll, probably replaced by Catalyst on the new table, the second spot going to Endurance you feel goes to Warp Blast instead for some added utility at the cost of firing one of your guns, these two powers hardly seem to even come close to value of the Biomancy ones, but here's what you are missing. the biomancy table was far more than these two powers. Haemorrhage being the BAD roll, which we can call The Horror on the new table, the other rolls you will land on are pretty noncomparable. While Biomancy has Enfeeble, Leechlife and Warp Speed, PotHM has Onslaught, Paroxysm and Psychic Scream. Let us really not forget that in the last dex we could just straight choose to take these powers anyway on Flyrant should we have wanted them (and we didn't) and not have to roll, another option taken away. But you said Biomancy as a whole being taken away doesn't affect much, and let's not forget the other units that could roll on it. Tervigon with Crushing Claws and 3 rolls on the Biomancy table was not something to be sniffed at for 215 pts. And basically anything you could roll was infinitely more reliable and useful for Broodlord than the Horror. A 180 pt Zoanthrope squad got 6 Biomancy rolls and could cast 3 of them a turn, making them an excellent toolkit and something I would on the fly turn my Thropes into on a gamepergame basis if I felt it was more important than Lances, similar to the ability to drop one roll on Telepathy for gauranteed Shriek or possibly something even better which was great at wrecking Tau/IG infantry and still have a Biomancy roll remaining. I think you are seriously dismissing how good they actually were which once again is suggestive that it is something you may have just read and not actually playtested yourself to know how important BRB powers actually were.
jifel wrote: Also, playing off the difference between a Tervigon and Space Marines as "a bit of toughness" is insane. You're calling me crazy?
But it IS just a bit of toughness. Do you find it easier to deal 6 T6 wounds or 15 T4 wounds? I think at the very least it is a pretty comparably equal statistic. This is completely ignoring the fact that the Tervigon can't take Rhino's that need to be punched through first, and only has a 1 in 5 chance of rolling Catalyst and not Onslaught or Psychic Scream or something just as stupid, as opposed to even some of the worse rolls on the Biomancy table like Endurance and Life Leech still adding far more to your survivability (just mentioning this because it is another nerf that you merrily dismissed).
I pointed out two. Zoanthropes and Flyrants are both better than they were in the last book.
While I can see the "argument" for Flyrants being improved (which they haven't), you can't just say "zoanthrope is better than the last book" without giving any evidence. I could say Mawlocs are worse than before (I mean mishapping isn't ideal) but it would be far from the truth and far from looking at the broad picture. In no way shape or form is losing the mobility of drop pods (which were auto-take with ZThropes), and being able to deny all 3 powers in a single roll (after not failing a to hit or a manifestation roll), a good trade off for 10 points and a power that you will only have to use if your zoanthropes aren't doing their role. Which it is highly plausible that they won't be now that they have no Pods to drop in with. The mitigation of them not being able to accomplish the role you are paying your points for them to do, by giving them a roll hoping for Catalyst, does not count as a buff. They have been undeniably nerfed.
The Tervigon now tanks most hits worse than the same amount of points put into a unit of Warriors
Why don't you take Warriors then? They're scoring, and they're synapse. 10 points per wound of T4 scoring plus bubbles of fearless is not bad at all.
And I do take Warriors. Certainly not religiously, but they fulfil the role Tervigon played in the last dex better than Tervigon does now. Just a sidenote: looking at them as 10 points per wound of T4 scoring might be accurate but is somewhat indescriptive / misleading. The fact that they are 3 wounds per model often makes them 30 points per wound, which is how you have to look at them to take them. Even at this price they are still cheaper per wound than Tervigon and have far more aggression. If you are lucky you will get to count them as 10 ppW , making them absolutely amazing somewhat akin to scoring Terminators. But none of this makes them any better than they were in the last book. In fact, thanks to Lash Whip and Bonesword nerfs they are potentially much weaker. The fact that they have no Pods now seals the deal. Another Synapse unit, nerfed.
jifel wrote: There are options in this book, but not everything in the book is an option. Accept that. But, if you refuse to even consider anyone else's arguments as anything besides "crazy" and just want to hate the book, fine. Go ahead. But someone wants to get ideas on how to make Tyranids work, please don't try to shut down every piece of optimism.
woahwoahwoahwoahwoah - Where did I once say there is no options in this book ? When do I shoot down every piece of optimism? When do I refuse to consider and label every opinion said by someone else as crazy? I pointed out the FACT that our Synapse options have gotten worse - and that to say otherwise is crazy. If there is optimism I support it - Venomthropes, Deathleapers, Mawlocs, etc. You can't just disagree with my point of view and then attach all this random crap to me about being blind to the strengths of the new nids. I know what the strengths are quite well and am very open to making it work (which is what I have done in many different ways since the dex dropped), while you seem quite unwilling to accept different possibilities than your own initial (and quite shallow) assumptions. If you would like to talk about some of the ways to make the new book work I am very happy to and would love some new perspectives while sharing some of my own. However, me just saying that Synapse creatures have been nerfed, and that the new Dex is poorly written and highly constrictive is in no way me sharing my opinion on the ways to make it work, nor is it me condemning it as it as weak and unplayable - and I don't think you have been able to differentiate this so far.
Even from the starting gate, the Tyranid codex has major problems that other codexes don't have
1. No access to allies
2. No access to rulebook powers
3. Random effects that punish the army after certain units have been destroyed.
Tyranids are the only codex not to have allies, but yet don't get a something else to replace it (an altered FOC).
Tau don't have access to rulebook psychic powers, but have markerlights and battlesuit upgrades to make up for this. Tyranids have their one table.
Daemons have the random Warp Storm table, but this effects both armies equally. Tyranids get no (real) benefits for having Synapse.
In answer to the original question though, yes GW has learned their lesson. They're now releasing minis before the release the rules and put people off.
Davor wrote:It's more of battered wife syndrome. You feel abused and unappreciated, GW spits in our faces, but we love them so much we can't leave.
Wow.
You know, you might as well go all the way here. People who like GW are like people who voted for the Nazi party in 1936. They enabled a system that brought misery to uncounted multitudes.
If we're going all the way with this wouldn't the real blame for the Nazis rising to power be the writers of the Treaty of Versailles? I mean they're the ones that completely boned Germany and gave Hitler the fuel he needed to start his regime...
Bartali wrote: Tyranids get no (real) benefits for having Synapse.
Because being fearless and providing Shadows in the Warp to take enemy psykers down -3 leadership isn't a benefit. /sarcasm off
To add something to the zoanthrope debate above: Zoanthropes got both better and worse. In the past, they either stuck with codex powers to provide anti-tank or took biomancy and hoped for some good rolls. They couldn't buff and provide nasty shooting in the same game. Now, they'll always be able to provide decent shooting as well as potentially buff or debuff. (though obviously not in the same turn as the warp blast power is 2 warp charges).
Bartali wrote: Tyranids get no (real) benefits for having Synapse.
Because being fearless and providing Shadows in the Warp to take enemy psykers down -3 leadership isn't a benefit. /sarcasm off
To add something to the zoanthrope debate above: Zoanthropes got both better and worse. In the past, they either stuck with codex powers to provide anti-tank or took biomancy and hoped for some good rolls. They couldn't buff and provide nasty shooting in the same game. Now, they'll always be able to provide decent shooting as well as potentially buff or debuff. (though obviously not in the same turn as the warp blast power is 2 warp charges).
Synapse doesn't provide SITW, that's separate.
And fearless is nice, but not being in Synapse is a horrible thing that makes the new synapse worse, the old chart was manageable, the new chart is not.
Bartali wrote: Tyranids get no (real) benefits for having Synapse.
Because being fearless and providing Shadows in the Warp to take enemy psykers down -3 leadership isn't a benefit. /sarcasm off
To add something to the zoanthrope debate above: Zoanthropes got both better and worse. In the past, they either stuck with codex powers to provide anti-tank or took biomancy and hoped for some good rolls. They couldn't buff and provide nasty shooting in the same game. Now, they'll always be able to provide decent shooting as well as potentially buff or debuff. (though obviously not in the same turn as the warp blast power is 2 warp charges).
As mentioned, SitW and Synapse are two completely different rules that (sometimes) happen to have the same range. SitW is also completely wasted on armies that don't run psykers, with Tau being the most obvious example.
Zoanthropes get plainly worse in the newest book. The 10 point drop is literally their only beneficial change from the last edition.
Brotherhood of Psykers (even at level 2) is plainly worse than having 2-3 individual level 2 psykers (it's virtually identical for a single model unit). 3 psykers would be able to mix and match not only powers known, but also powers used each turn. The new brood is incapable of both blasting and buffing; the old brood could.
Loss of power charts. Now Zoanthropes get Warp Blast (WC2) and one roll from the chart, where everything is WC1. Previously, I could could hope for 2 rolls of WC1 powers which would allow me to use both. Now, I get to use one power or the other, per brood.
Loss of Mycetic Spores means that Warp Blast is no longer all but guaranteed to be where you need it. Now, it's stuck trudging along the battlefield (like everything else that lost Spods), taking fire from longer range weaponry (see: Wave Serpent shields, anything S8+, or even autocannons). Sure, it's got a 3++ save (the only general invulnerable in the entire codex, mind you), but it's still T4 W2.
Bartali wrote: Tyranids get no (real) benefits for having Synapse.
Because being fearless and providing Shadows in the Warp to take enemy psykers down -3 leadership isn't a benefit. /sarcasm off
To add something to the zoanthrope debate above: Zoanthropes got both better and worse. In the past, they either stuck with codex powers to provide anti-tank or took biomancy and hoped for some good rolls. They couldn't buff and provide nasty shooting in the same game. Now, they'll always be able to provide decent shooting as well as potentially buff or debuff. (though obviously not in the same turn as the warp blast power is 2 warp charges).
As mentioned, SitW and Synapse are two completely different rules that (sometimes) happen to have the same range. SitW is also completely wasted on armies that don't run psykers, with Tau being the most obvious example.
Zoanthropes get plainly worse in the newest book. The 10 point drop is literally their only beneficial change from the last edition.
Brotherhood of Psykers (even at level 2) is plainly worse than having 2-3 individual level 2 psykers (it's virtually identical for a single model unit). 3 psykers would be able to mix and match not only powers known, but also powers used each turn. The new brood is incapable of both blasting and buffing; the old brood could.
Loss of power charts. Now Zoanthropes get Warp Blast (WC2) and one roll from the chart, where everything is WC1. Previously, I could could hope for 2 rolls of WC1 powers which would allow me to use both. Now, I get to use one power or the other, per brood.
Loss of Mycetic Spores means that Warp Blast is no longer all but guaranteed to be where you need it. Now, it's stuck trudging along the battlefield (like everything else that lost Spods), taking fire from longer range weaponry (see: Wave Serpent shields, anything S8+, or even autocannons). Sure, it's got a 3++ save (the only general invulnerable in the entire codex, mind you), but it's still T4 W2.
This pretty much sums it up. I don't know what Voidwraith is on about, but in the old codex you could cast a buff and 2 lances in the same turn let alone same game, the new one can't do this. The new one also lost pods which was the only thing that made Zoanthropes viable. Now you will spend a bunch of turns not lancing anything as opposed to guaranteed 3 lances on turn two with a roll of +2 thx to Hive Commander. Trading this off for an extra power, that every single Zoanthrope has to be used at once to cast? That you wouldn't need to be casting at all in the old dex because you would be lancing or blasting instead? How anyone can spin this into a positive change to the unit is beyond me.
Speaking as a casual nid player, who routinely spammed close combat warriors in pods, this book was a monumental disappointment. Not only did boneswords and lash whips get nerfed down to near uselessness, but the cost of fielding comparable warriors went up. WARRIORS. Not one of the power units people moaned about but, f---- WARRIORS. Toss in the removal of pods and the casual nid player got raped even harder by this book than the competitive player.
When they let it slip that Cruddace wrote this turd, I was not in the least bit surprised. The only even remotely workable book he has made in his entire tenure at GW was the current guard book, which was mostly by accident since a half dozen units out of the 40 in that book were bound to be playable, if only by random chance. Everything that guy has touched in the hobby has turned to manure. Say what you want about Matt Ward or Phail Kelly, at least their books are playable.
Their crappy playtesting is equally to blame. How can we expect anyone to come up with anything balanced when their playtesting is either non existent or very incompetent.
I am still waiting for them to come out with errata for the burning chariot, but I stopped holding my breath a year ago.
IB does not really help with the scoring of this game. Who wants a big baddie to babysit a unit sitting on an objective when the baddie is required to bash some enemies instead.
I would not be so quick to condemn the playtesting. First off, they are usually just using a group of suck ups to do it in the first place who will get kicked off the gravy train if they dissent. Second, even when they do raise an objection (and to hear it told, this book caused a lot of objections) they generally get ignored.
Phazael wrote: I would not be so quick to condemn the playtesting. First off, they are usually just using a group of suck ups to do it in the first place who will get kicked off the gravy train if they dissent. Second, even when they do raise an objection (and to hear it told, this book caused a lot of objections) they generally get ignored.
...which is exactly why they have awful playtesting and why it shows in their products.
Bartali wrote: Tyranids get no (real) benefits for having Synapse.
Because being fearless and providing Shadows in the Warp to take enemy psykers down -3 leadership isn't a benefit. /sarcasm off
Most armies can circumvent the Morale rules. Only Nids get a crippling disability to "compensate" for a bonus that almost everyone else takes for granted.
Looking at the points cost of the Nid dex, it seems like units that are crippled by our army-wide special rule aren't cheaper than you'd expect for the same unit without it. Meanwhile, synapse creatures pay a premium to negate said rule. This is not good codex design at all, it's blackmail: "You may think our protection price is too high, but wouldn't it be such a shame if something were to happen to your Hormagaunts over there".
PrinceRaven wrote: Looking at the points cost of the Nid dex, it seems like units that are crippled by our army-wide special rule aren't cheaper than you'd expect for the same unit without it. Meanwhile, synapse creatures pay a premium to negate said rule. This is not good codex design at all, it's blackmail: "You may think our protection price is too high, but wouldn't it be such a shame if something were to happen to your Hormagaunts over there".
That is literally the justification we were getting for the 45 point increase on the Tyranid Prime, for literally 0 profile or special rule changes. "But being out of synapse is worse, so it makes sense for synapse creatures to cost more!"
No, not it frelling doesn't. It makes more sense for non-synapse things to cost much, much less. And hint: 1 ppm is not "much, much less".
Wow Vengeful man. Did they "Learn their Lesson". The new Tyranid book isNOT THAT BAD!!!!
There are three problems with the Tyranid book.
ONE: GW has stated that Warhammer is meant as a beer & pretzels game NOT a competitive game, whether this is just said to shake the blame I don't know but that is their official policy.
TWO: It's not TauDar. Be honest, you wanted another book on the levels of Tau & Eldar, you wanted some kick ass book that would smite everything & win you all your tournaments without having to try that hard. Too bad. Let's look at the 6th ed codexes as they fall into about 2 categories. One of them being the balanced codexes which are the MAJORITY (CSM, DA, SM, Daemons, Nids). These books are fun, not terribly broken, true they have their power units & some craptastic ones but as a whole these are nice middle of the road books that work well against each other. Then there's Tau & Eldar who while they can be balanced people tend to abuse a few key units & thus people cry OP.
THREE: and this is a biggun, YOU. You expected too much. You were never going to get everything the rumor mill cranked out. Biomancy while it makes sense is bad for game balance, do we really need T6-7 Tyranid warriors? Do they really need eternal warrior? Yes it would make them fantastic neigh unstoppable killing machines which would be what you want but you don't NEED it.
From my experience the new nid codex is just fine, the problems are people were over-promised (by the rumor mill) and GW (allegedly) under-delivered which leads to resentment and disappointment and people wanted a new powerhouse like TauDar which to be honest TauDar was BAD for the game. It turned people AWAY from tournaments because they didn't want to face the save Wraithknights + AV12 spam every single tournament. If you want to play to win, play what's good, if you want to ejoy the game play an army you like and here's the kicker, stop caring about your win/loss record. Play with friends, play for fun, this is a GAME not a SPORT. Tyranids can still WIN a lot of games just like any other codex I'm sorry you can't beat the TauDar tournament lists but very few lists stand with them on equal ground and I for one don't want to see power creep to fix power creep, I'd rather just have a fun codex that I can play & if someone wants to bring their top tier tournament list I'll either relax & try to have fun, or just not play against them.
TWO: It's not TauDar. Be honest, you wanted another book on the levels of Tau & Eldar, you wanted some kick ass book that would smite everything & win you all your tournaments without having to try that hard. Too bad. Let's look at the 6th ed codexes as they fall into about 2 categories. One of them being the balanced codexes which are the MAJORITY (CSM, DA, SM, Daemons, Nids). These books are fun, not terribly broken, true they have their power units & some craptastic ones but as a whole these are nice middle of the road books that work well against each other. Then there's Tau & Eldar who while they can be balanced people tend to abuse a few key units & thus people cry OP.
Daemons? Grimoir and Screamstar Daemons?
Though there's actually a decent tier list going on with CSM/DA lower, SM higher, and nids somewhere on par with CSM/DA, which is pretty bad cause the balancing in those two kinda suck unless you use specific builds. I would never say CSM is 'balanced' just...mediocre.
Shas'O Dorian wrote: Let's look at the 6th ed codexes as they fall into about 2 categories. One of them being the balanced codexes which are the MAJORITY (CSM, DA, SM, Daemons, Nids). These books are fun, not terribly broken, true they have their power units & some craptastic ones but as a whole these are nice middle of the road books that work well against each other.
Wowowowow! Slow down here hombre! Calling Codex: Nurgle&Baledrakes, Codex: White Scars and Codex: Where the Game Plays You! "balanced" would be an insult in any other game system.
Well, his whole argument is a strawman anyways. I have yet to see anyone anywhere quote even one person saying they wanted an OP army. I have yet to see anyone who wants an attack move to win army.
Instead they say they want an army where most units are viable and you feel like you want to take them rather than you have to. They want an army that plays like the fluff. They want an army that doesn't punish you, like every other army out there now, since the removal of phase out and the like. They want an army where the units actually function in a similar manner to what's described. They want special rules that actually work. I have seen people who say they want an army that isn't hard countered by the already popular builds. I have seen people who are upset that instead of making units better so you want to take them, they just made good units worse.
Having some semblance of balance with the rest of the dexes released so far would only be a bonus.
Wow Shas'O Dorian.
ONE: People need to stop the ridiculous notion that good rules and effort in dex design are only for competitive players. Sure, anyone in their garage with their buddy can house rule anything and/or have fun playing whatever way they want. But well written rules benefit the casual player. And even Beer & Pretzel games need good rules for the game to be worthwhile.
TWO: What a load of rubbish. I'm sure you can find someone that wanted a nid dex as OP as Tau/Eldar, but if you read through the threads on the many forums with nids you will find most people wanted a good product around the level of SM, with a variety of builds and effort put into the dex so that it has flavour and some imagination. Don't lump every nid player that dislikes this dex together with the few that want an OP dex. The nid dex is a bland, boring dex where many of the problems in the previous poorly done dex were not fixed. And I better add, few people have said that nids wont win games or that a strong build may come out of it.
THREE: I agree and disagree. I don't think I expected too much in wanting a dex that made an honest attempt to fix problems, try to make units operate close to fluff where possible, use some creativity and add some flavour to the dex in the way the SM dex has done, and try to balance things internally and externally. I did expect too much because GW cares little for their product and customers - they should be ashamed of this poorly done product (again not saying that nobody will win a game with the dex). But overall this is a poorly done and sloppy/lazy dex. If you honestly think that the dex is a good product we have staggeringly different views on what makes a quality product.
When I criticized the CSM dex I was told I just wanted an OP dex. No, I want a dex where half the units are completely useless. Take their loyalist brethren for example. Yes, there are superior choices but very few are totally useless like so many of the chaos choices. Keep the same power level, that's fine. But I want a dex that makes me feel like I'm actually playing Chaos Marines, not some generic version of them.
I see the same thing going on in this thread. The people that criticize say "we don't like the dex because there are too many useless units that shoehorn us into mono builds and the army itself is boring and or not fun to play due to restrictive rules that once again shoehorn the player into a certain way of fighting with little room for change."
Then the dex defenders read that and interpret is as "we want a new Taudar codex!" How they get that I have no idea because no one's saying that but them. The Chaos dex and the Nid dex are fine with their power levels. (for the most part, though the Nids could use a few more tools against taudar.) What the problem is, the dex is bland, boring, offers very little choice in list building if you don't want to get tabled on turn one and the dex itself is a poor quality copy and paste job.
Some will like it and many will have fun with it, but also for many the dex is not fun and not worth the price or the effort. Opinions will differ, but at least make an attempt to understand the other side of the argument instead of "You just want to be OP!" Because that's getting old and irritating.
When I criticized the CSM dex I was told I just wanted an OP dex. No, I want a dex where half the units are completely useless. Take their loyalist brethren for example. Yes, there are superior choices but very few are totally useless like so many of the chaos choices. Keep the same power level, that's fine. But I want a dex that makes me feel like I'm actually playing Chaos Marines, not some generic version of them.
I see the same thing going on in this thread. The people that criticize say "we don't like the dex because there are too many useless units that shoehorn us into mono builds and the army itself is boring and or not fun to play due to restrictive rules that once again shoehorn the player into a certain way of fighting with little room for change."
Then the dex defenders read that and interpret is as "we want a new Taudar codex!" How they get that I have no idea because no one's saying that but them. The Chaos dex and the Nid dex are fine with their power levels. (for the most part, though the Nids could use a few more tools against taudar.) What the problem is, the dex is bland, boring, offers very little choice in list building if you don't want to get tabled on turn one and the dex itself is a poor quality copy and paste job.
Some will like it and many will have fun with it, but also for many the dex is not fun and not worth the price or the effort. Opinions will differ, but at least make an attempt to understand the other side of the argument instead of "You just want to be OP!" Because that's getting old and irritating.
(Also, toxic negativity doesn't help either.)
QFT! The entire friggin' post! QFT!
This release seems almost identical in every way to the CSM release. Both books seem to have (for the most part) gotten a somewhat half-arsed treatment. Lingering problems from previous editions were not fixed (or even actively made worse), very little of the new aditions (whether they be new rules or new units) appear to have added much, the internal balance is horrendous, both books actively penalize the player for using them (I mean come on, GW actually found a way to make becoming a Demon Prince WORSE than NOT becoming a Demon Prince, and don't even get me started on the new Instinctive Behaviors), the fluff was weak, and in the Nids case they lost units. I get WHY they lost those units, but you would at least hope they would be given something to make up for it.
And despite the fact that the majority of both sets of players seem to mainly be upset about the apparent lack of effort/creativity that went into their books (and don't really car about the power level so much) they are being accused of just wanting a WAAC codex. Ugh ....
Yeah, I put exactly zero stock in that right now (those results specificly - NOT ToF). It's not been long enough since the book came out to really be able to say they are truly going to be in that tier. I think there's a possibilty they could be - I mean given a few more months they might even go UP in those rankings. So it's possible, and there are a few lists being played with at my LGS that look like they could be scary. I'm just saying it's too soon to be trotting out stats like that and saying they mean anything.
Yeah, I put exactly zero stock in that right now (those results specificly - NOT ToF). It's not been long enough since the book came out to really be able to say they are truly going to be in that tier. I think there's a possibilty they could be - I mean given a few more months they might even go UP in those rankings. So it's possible, and there are a few lists being played with at my LGS that look like they could be scary. I'm just saying it's too soon to be trotting out stats like that and saying they mean anything.
I agree with you 100%, and if we can't trust actual data because it's too early to tell, why should we put so much stock into first impressions?
I agree with you 100%, and if we can't trust actual data because it's too early to tell, why should we put so much stock into first impressions?
Because as I said, most of the complaints have nothing to do with power level. They have to do with other things that are, generally, imediately obvious and accurate. Reece from Frontline gaming for example put it best (imo) "Tyranids [due to instinctive behavior] are a zero sum game. If you play the army the way they want you to, you gain nothing but nothing "bad" happens either. If you DON'T play the way they want you to, you get hit with some serious penalties. You have nothing to gain and a lot to lose."
IMO that's just bad game design. Yeah, it's fluffy the way they did it, but if synapse is going to be so important, at least give the 'Nid players a few more reliable ways to get (and keep) synapse in their armies.
The items removed due to Chapter House - Yeah, I totally get why they did that and you can't really fault their decision (provided you're being pbjective about it lol), but it would have been nice if they had found other ways to put some things back in to the book that would have helped make up for that loss (even if it was just a few beneficial USRs- I realize the timing of the decision in the law suit may have made it imposssible to add new units to the book from scratch and make kits and release on time so no big deal there).
Almost all of the units that have any potential "up-sides" have such tremendous down-sides that it causes a lot of players to start to lose interest. Again, that has nothing to do with power level either. If you're constantly trying to solve/work with/work around/ the giant gaping holes and issues built into your army, they can start to be a drag to play. "But it's a beer and pretzels game" is NOT a reason for the kind of design that went into this.
I agree with you 100%, and if we can't trust actual data because it's too early to tell, why should we put so much stock into first impressions?
Because as I said, most of the complaints have nothing to do with power level. They have to do with other things that are, generally, imediately obvious and accurate. Reece from Frontline gaming for example put it best (imo) "Tyranids [due to instinctive behavior] are a zero sum game. If you play the army the way they want you to, you gain nothing but nothing "bad" happens either. If you DON'T play the way they want you to, you get hit with some serious penalties. You have nothing to gain and a lot to lose."
IMO that's just bad game design. Yeah, it's fluffy the way they did it, but if synapse is going to be so important, at least give the 'Nid players a few more reliable ways to get (and keep) synapse in their armies.
The items removed due to Chapter House - Yeah, I totally get why they did that and you can't really fault their decision (provided you're being pbjective about it lol), but it would have been nice if they had found other ways to put some things back in to the book that would have helped make up for that loss (even if it was just a few beneficial USRs- I realize the timing of the decision in the law suit may have made it imposssible to add new units to the book from scratch and make kits and release on time so no big deal there).
Almost all of the units that have any potential "up-sides" have such tremendous down-sides that it causes a lot of players to start to lose interest. Again, that has nothing to do with power level either. If you're constantly trying to solve/work with/work around/ the giant gaping holes and issues built into your army, they can start to be a drag to play. "But it's a beer and pretzels game" is NOT a reason for the kind of design that went into this.
Your general point can be applied to all armies. I don't want to play Imperial Guard because of the way I feel that army plays on the table-top, but I don't go around trying to convince everyone that the Imperial Guard is an uplayable mess of a codex.
Your general point can be applied to all armies. I don't want to play Imperial Guard because of the way I feel that army plays on the table-top, but I don't go around trying to convince everyone that the Imperial Guard is an uplayable mess of a codex.
That's not accurate at all. Not liking the way something plays on the table top is quite different from what I (and many others) are talking about here. For example, I don't play gaurd either because it's too much of a commitment in terms of time and money to buy/buld/paint and play. That being said, I recognize that as my own personal taste. The book itself is generally fine. Show me the downside to a Vendetta. Show me the USR that actually works AGAINST your entire army (and can potentially actively cripple it), show me where they removed units and did nothing to replace those capabilities, etc, etc.
Your general point can be applied to all armies. I don't want to play Imperial Guard because of the way I feel that army plays on the table-top, but I don't go around trying to convince everyone that the Imperial Guard is an uplayable mess of a codex.
That's not accurate at all. Not liking the way something plays on the table top is quite different from what I (and many others) are talking about here. For example, I don't play gaurd either because it's too much of a commitment in terms of time and money to buy/buld/paint and play. That being said, I recognize that as my own personal taste. The book itself is generally fine. Show me the downside to a Vendetta. Show me the USR that actually works AGAINST your entire army (and can potentially actively cripple it), show me where they removed units and did nothing to replace those capabilities, etc, etc.
If I want to play an army of cheap, fearless (which is amazing by the way, but everyone just glosses over that in the case of tyranids because it doesn't fit the "tyranids suck" narrative), fast moving, swarming troops and monsterous creatures, the Tyranid Codex provides the rules to do so.
I didn't play with the Parasite. I can get around the loss of drop pods. I used the Doom from time to time, but agree he was cheese and don't miss him at all. I only used Ymgarls once.
Almost everything went down in cost...Why should I get worked up again? Oh yeah...because of the loss of Biomancy. Rolls I couldn't count on anyway...
If I want to play an army of cheap, fearless (which is amazing by the way, but everyone just glosses over that in the case of tyranids because it doesn't fit the "tyranids suck" narrative), fast moving, swarming troops and monsterous creatures, the Tyranid Codex provides the rules to do so.
Um ... you could pretty much do that already with the old 'dex. The fact that this is what you want doesn't makeit a good book. That's like the one Youtube review where, when the guy got to the part about Pyrovores argued that they were good because "Well, it's a good unit because it hasn't changed much so if you used it last book you will still be using it now." That's NOT good. I'm glad it works for you, but since it's also your only option, saying it's good because of that isn't really the best argument to make (which is why so many are upset in the first place). Also, while I think there are some very good opportunities for monster mash lists, I'm not sure how well swarm armies will do. Not enough synapse to go around and if you lose it ... good night.
I didn't play with the Parasite. I can get around the loss of drop pods. I used the Doom from time to time, but agree he was cheese and don't miss him at all. I only used Ymgarls once.
That's great. The loss of pods still hurts them and given the current Taudar meta, I'm not sure that Doom would have remained cheesy. Again though, I get why they dropped those. At the very least it would have been good to do something with DS capabilities. Tunnels or something.
Almost everything went down in cost...Why should I get worked up again? Oh yeah...because of the loss of Biomancy. Rolls I couldn't count on anyway...
Yeah, and despite that most of it is STILL too expensive. Plus, while a lot went down in cost, a lot also went down in effectiveness. Loss of Biomancy - eh. Most of our 'Nids players feel like that was only necessary if you were trying to make your bugs compete with Taudar. Outside of that, for a fun LGS type of game - not so big a deal. Wierd, but not so big a deal.
Ailaros wrote: DA, CSM, SM, and Guard are all pretty good. I didn't say perfect, of course, but pretty good.
You'd never know it given the internet's primal scream of "HELLDRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKESSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!", and worse about vendettas, etc., but that's mostly from people who tend to immediately fall into solipsistic obsessions about things. Take a deep breath, a step back, and a mindset that can rationally compare things to each other, and things really aren't so bad for in-codex balance in most codices.
Even then, the most obvious examples I can think of codices with structural problems are old ones like orks or DE, and they only had problems once 6th edition changed the rules out from underneath them.
CSM is not pretty good. It suffers from terrible internal and external balance. CSM have a lame special rule which hurts us more than it helps.
One sided play style with a total lack of units that have outflank or infiltrate makes it tedious to play and 1/3 of the missions are pretty difficult to win because of this.
some units are utter feth while other units (hell chicken) are OP.
I cannot agree with you when you post stuff like this.
Dozer Blades wrote: An opinion counts a lot more than actual numbers from a major event. Lolz
Data isn't information. Without context and analysis it is meaningless.
On the face of it, that data shows that Tyranids are winning slightly over half their games.
Assuming the codex is balanced that's probably about right, because luck would account for a bit of variation in a large enough sample but we don't know the sample size. It could be an unlucky below par performance, or a very lucky above par performance.
Dozer Blades wrote: An opinion counts a lot more than actual numbers from a major event. Lolz
Data isn't information. Without context and analysis it is meaningless.
On the face of it, that data shows that Tyranids are winning slightly over half their games.
Assuming the codex is balanced that's probably about right, because luck would account for a bit of variation in a large enough sample but we don't know the sample size. It could be an unlucky below par performance, or a very lucky above par performance.
We do have context, most of the nids didn't meet against top tier armies.
Dozer Blades wrote: An opinion counts a lot more than actual numbers from a major event. Lolz
Data isn't information. Without context and analysis it is meaningless.
On the face of it, that data shows that Tyranids are winning slightly over half their games.
Assuming the codex is balanced that's probably about right, because luck would account for a bit of variation in a large enough sample but we don't know the sample size. It could be an unlucky below par performance, or a very lucky above par performance.
We do have context, most of the nids didn't meet against top tier armies.
Yeah somebody at the LVO did great day 1 with nids (idk how he did throughout the rest) but that was because of his matches not because of the nids. Whereas compared to Blackmoor (I think thag was his name) did terrible day 1 because he faced some higher tier armies
At the end of the day, they could win first 3 spots in every tournament - doesn't make it a good codex. A monobuild codex which is literally the least fun to play of every army in the game thanks to restrictions without benefits. Some of us were happy with the power level no matter where it went (I started playing in 5E and picked Nids as my main deliberately because they were one of the more challenged armies).
Stop giving me victorystats, I don't want a dominant army - I want to be able to justify taking my Genestealers, Swarmlord and Shrikes. In fact I personally can't justify taking Lictor, Hive Guard, any walking Tyrant variant, Tyranid Prime, Crone, Raveners, even Zoanthropes, just barely Tervigon's, the list goes on. I guess it was taking it for granted as well to assume I'd even be able to play with my Spore, Doom & Parasite models that I spent $300 on a few months ago.
I didn't play with the Parasite. I can get around the loss of drop pods. I used the Doom from time to time, but agree he was cheese and don't miss him at all. I only used Ymgarls once.
And why should you get worked up? You didn't play/like these models so what do you care. I mean, just because it didn't personally affect you means that nobody else should dare complain either right, no matter what effect it had on them? To call the entirety of your posts narrow minded would be an understatement, to say the least.
The entirety of my posts? If the entirety of my posts is looked at, you'll see I'm the guy trying to talk people off the ledge...not sure how I'm the one that's narrow minded.
you to chapter house than making a good book.
Tervi-spam as a list has indeed been nerfed into the ground, but the unit itself now has a new, different role solely as a backfield supporter with tough scoring synapse and extra units when absolutely needed.
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