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@Shuppet: how on earth was every synapse creature nerfed? You list Tyrants as an example and yet those got a stat boost and a 30 point drop for the standard (best) build. Primes did indeed take a nerf, and Tervigons a minor debuff, but they were the best unit in the game before! Now, they're still worth taking. And Zoanthropes got a boost thanks to points drop and the ability to keep Lance while being a supporter unit with Dominion.

 jifel wrote:
@Shuppet: how on earth was every synapse creature nerfed? You list Tyrants as an example and yet those got a stat boost and a 30 point drop for the standard (best) build. Primes did indeed take a nerf, and Tervigons a minor debuff, but they were the best unit in the game before! Now, they're still worth taking. And Zoanthropes got a boost thanks to points drop and the ability to keep Lance while being a supporter unit with Dominion.

Tervigons got a minor debuff? They lost:

Access to biomancy
Their Death Spasm takes out a better range of Gaunts, and now is harder hitting too
More expensive
Needs more gaunts to become troops


The reason they were the best before was because What other thing could reasonably compare in the troops slot? Nothing got buffed up to help match it, it was dropped down hard and now things might reasonably match it because it's down to the level of the other weak things.

The Tervigon got nerfed hard no doubt... Probably more than any other brood. It is okay now but no longer an auto take unit.

I apologize. This IS a "GW sucks, the Nid's suck, and we hate both" thread. Positive ideas need to be checked at the door.

I'm just going to hope Tyranids are some kind of weird outlier, as most of the codices this edition (Tau, Eldar, Space Marines, Daemons) have been very good, either competitively, flavor-wise, or both. Even Dark Angels and the much-maligned Chaos Space Marine books have some character and some competitive builds in them, even if they suffer from being the first books out the door. Tyranids have just gotten the short end of the stick since the 5th edition codex, and even the 4th edition one was limited in a lot of ways. 6th just made that stick markedly shorter. I feel like a wait and see attitude is the best to take here, and I hope the next codices end up better.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 jifel wrote:
@Shuppet: how on earth was every synapse creature nerfed? You list Tyrants as an example and yet those got a stat boost and a 30 point drop for the standard (best) build. Primes did indeed take a nerf, and Tervigons a minor debuff, but they were the best unit in the game before! Now, they're still worth taking. And Zoanthropes got a boost thanks to points drop and the ability to keep Lance while being a supporter unit with Dominion.

Tervigons got a minor debuff? They lost:

Access to biomancy
Their Death Spasm takes out a better range of Gaunts, and now is harder hitting too
More expensive
Needs more gaunts to become troops


The reason they were the best before was because What other thing could reasonably compare in the troops slot? Nothing got buffed up to help match it, it was dropped down hard and now things might reasonably match it because it's down to the level of the other weak things.

1. Tervigons were the best troops in the game, not because our other choices were bad. Every army would've killed for that unit.
2. No one is saying that the Tervigon is as good as before. However, let's look at this. Synapse is MUCH more valuable than before, and this is the toughest (but not the most expensive) synapse unit in the book. 30 gants are a great unit to take, this is hardly a bad "tax" and one I would buy even if I ran 0 Tervs. It is still a six wound T6 scoring Monstrous Creature. Does that not mean anything? Buying 3 Tervs and throwing them down your opponents throat is no longer viable, yes, but as a backfield support unit Tervigons are JUST as good as before because they still score, synapse is more valuable, and they can reliably get Dominion for even better synapse. One is a very good investment still.
3.(to everyone) If you do not want to like the new book, fine. But please don't stomp on every glimmer of optimism.

 jifel wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 jifel wrote:
@Shuppet: how on earth was every synapse creature nerfed? You list Tyrants as an example and yet those got a stat boost and a 30 point drop for the standard (best) build. Primes did indeed take a nerf, and Tervigons a minor debuff, but they were the best unit in the game before! Now, they're still worth taking. And Zoanthropes got a boost thanks to points drop and the ability to keep Lance while being a supporter unit with Dominion.

Tervigons got a minor debuff? They lost:

Access to biomancy
Their Death Spasm takes out a better range of Gaunts, and now is harder hitting too
More expensive
Needs more gaunts to become troops


The reason they were the best before was because What other thing could reasonably compare in the troops slot? Nothing got buffed up to help match it, it was dropped down hard and now things might reasonably match it because it's down to the level of the other weak things.

1. Tervigons were the best troops in the game, not because our other choices were bad. Every army would've killed for that unit.
2. No one is saying that the Tervigon is as good as before. However, let's look at this. Synapse is MUCH more valuable than before, and this is the toughest (but not the most expensive) synapse unit in the book. 30 gants are a great unit to take, this is hardly a bad "tax" and one I would buy even if I ran 0 Tervs. It is still a six wound T6 scoring Monstrous Creature. Does that not mean anything? Buying 3 Tervs and throwing them down your opponents throat is no longer viable, yes, but as a backfield support unit Tervigons are JUST as good as before because they still score, synapse is more valuable, and they can reliably get Dominion for even better synapse. One is a very good investment still.
3.(to everyone) If you do not want to like the new book, fine. But please don't stomp on every glimmer of optimism.

I would be fine with the optimism if it were guided towards the things to be optimistic about, like Exocrines, Biovores, Flyrants, maybe even the Crone and Mawloc as much as ~I~ personally don't like them. But trying to put a bright spin on what happened to Tervigons, they went from being able to carry their own weight to being a unit that is a massive liability that doesn't give you much outside of synapse. Yeah he still spawns scoring troops but that isn't exactly reliable as in my last game my Tervigon rolled tripple ones. I know that is nothing to judge him by but gak like that happens, it was hilarious and we moved on but for such a rule as spawning it can be just as bad as it can be just as good. I STILL don't understand why they took away the ability for Tervigons to give gants around them AG/TS, I can understand biomancy and even the increase to their death spasms, but why take away their ability to buff the unit they were designed to buff?

 Truth118 wrote:
I think it's a little early to say; the poor selling of the LE nid codex is very telling though and it's not like GW doesn't gauge how their stuff is selling.

What do you think a poor selling LE nid codex says? I see a few possibilities but it would be impossible to pick one. For example it *could* say:

1. Nid players don't really like LE books.
2. LE books in general have been a let down. In other words, people don't think that a fancy dust cover is worth double the cost.
3. People weren't happy with the Nid book.
4. $100 is simply too much for a codex and those who would pay that price already have.


Honestly, it could be ANY of those items or even a combination of them.

Regardless, I personally like the Nid book. I think it's pretty solid and will be around for quite awhile. There were certainly some interesting changes that will require Nid players to figure out a new plan of attack.

new plans of attacking what . if tyrants or crones are unstopable , then the army hasn't delt with demons or the old nids either . mawlocks are nice and cheap , but they still as accurate as other indirect blast , unless someone has a lictor alive and near . Synaps kills the army . Sure if there were ++2 tervigons or tyrants one could play a clamed up wave , but those MC die very fast . 6t6w is not much with +3sv , that is like 6 chaos bikers without jink . Worse of it those are things the nid player can't do a thing about . His opponent will kill the synaps , the best a nid player can do is to run 2 tyrants 2 tervigons 3 solo zoanthropes and hope opponents ignores the zoans long enough for everything to get in to range.

Makumba wrote:
Synaps kills the army.

And how does it do that? Well I cant figure it out. There are some cheap units like hormagaunts and termagants that really suffers from it. Most other units either have high Ld or an IB that doesnt really hurt, cause youre unit keeps doing the things they would normally do. Its not that hard to live with IB.

clively wrote:

Regardless, I personally like the Nid book. I think it's pretty solid and will be around for quite awhile. There were certainly some interesting changes that will require Nid players to figure out a new plan of attack.

This statement I keep hearing makes me think people didn't know or look at the 5th codex. Nothing really changed except Tervigons, the general codex plays exactly as it did before except the key synapse units are easier to kill due to the loss of biomancy. Does making somethings cheaper make for an "interesting change?" The most succesful list being made right now aren't new, they are just the same as the 5th list so I fail to see how this codex is forcing a "new plan of attack."

 Voidwraith wrote:
I was as bummed as anyone when Genestealers didn't get some sort of assault grenades (I own 40 of them). Then I realized that a pinned unit in cover doesn't force the assaulting unit's initiative down to 1. Seeing as how Broodlords always get "The Horror," which does a decent job of pinning most units, I feel this was GWs way of throwing the genestealers a bone. It also makes sense thematically (more so than genestealers lobbing assault grenades).

Sorry, but this is a perfect example of making excuses. Throwing genestealers that bone still leaves them as a stupidly unplayable troop choice. Even with Broodlord the unreliability of the unit nowhere near justifies the cost of the unit, you have to roll to cast, roll to hit, they roll to deny, and roll a leadership test, and have to be a non fearless unit for it to even matter. This is no substitute for Fleshhooks (our assault grenades), which make even more sense thematically than the Psychic power and even come on the sprues inside a box of Genestealers.

 jifel wrote:
@Shuppet: how on earth was every synapse creature nerfed? You list Tyrants as an example and yet those got a stat boost and a 30 point drop for the standard (best) build. Primes did indeed take a nerf, and Tervigons a minor debuff, but they were the best unit in the game before! Now, they're still worth taking. And Zoanthropes got a boost thanks to points drop and the ability to keep Lance while being a supporter unit with Dominion.

Tyrants were nerfed in the sense the walking build is no longer even slightly viable, with the removal of Armored Shell and all his brilliant close combat weapons being turned to trash, and all his rolls of Iron Arm / Warp Speed rolls being turned into rolls of Catalyst / Psychic Scream. The flying one was dropped 30 points and gained a point in BS but also lost its Biomancy, which at best is a sidegrade but more likely a nerf as they still have a similar amount of aggression while Biomancy was pretty important for keeping them alive. An opinion, you may not share it and may not feel the loss of survivability on your 230 pt glass cannon as much as I am, for whatever reason. However, to say Prime's and Tervigon took a minor nerf is beyond ridiculous. The Prime's point cost just about doubled, this is the price he payed to have all his weapon options nerfed and his biomorphs cost up to triple as much? Points to effeciency wise, The Tervigon now tanks most hits worse than the same amount of points put into a unit of Warriors, and no longer gives any bonuses to your actual best troop choice (the Gants) and takes out A LOT of them when he dies making his Synapse a liability to be kept away from your gribblies. He went from being good (far from OP, I never ran more than one - people spammed him because of his versatility) to being something that should probably never see any further play. Tell me more about how a 6W 3+ is an amazing troop choice no matter what they do to it, and I'll tell you how for the same points cost a couple of space marine units are pretty comparable to this with 15 wounds 3+ at a lower toughness, except with far more competitive options and transports than just "spawning gaunts", and are certainly not making waves in the competitive scene. Zoanthrope got a buff in the sense that they got 10 points cheaper, and an extra power that they will never use if they are doing their job, and got a nerf in the fact that they lost pods and became a Brotherhood. Both these things are pretty big and not worth the 10 points saved in choosing whether to take a unit.


At the end of the day, if you honestly think our Synapse is in good shape you are crazy. The one buff you could point out was the buff to Flyrants, great two of them max per list with no more sensible variations for the build anymore, and then a bunch of crappy options forced on the table just to stop your army from eating itself.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
I was as bummed as anyone when Genestealers didn't get some sort of assault grenades (I own 40 of them). Then I realized that a pinned unit in cover doesn't force the assaulting unit's initiative down to 1. Seeing as how Broodlords always get "The Horror," which does a decent job of pinning most units, I feel this was GWs way of throwing the genestealers a bone. It also makes sense thematically (more so than genestealers lobbing assault grenades).

Sorry, but this is a perfect example of making excuses. Throwing genestealers that bone still leaves them as a stupidly unplayable troop choice. Even with Broodlord the unreliability of the unit nowhere near justifies the cost of the unit, you have to roll to cast, roll to hit, they roll to deny, and roll a leadership test, and have to be a non fearless unit for it to even matter. This is no substitute for Fleshhooks (our assault grenades), which make even more sense thematically than the Psychic power and even come on the sprues inside a box of Genestealers.

I'm not making excuses. I'm just taking what they gave the nids and using it. *gasp*

I had a lot more I was going to type, but it's really not worth the effort. Me arguing that the Tyranid codex isn't as bad as people think is similar to that super annoying guy (if you read the thread you'd agree) arguing that Eldar aren't OP. I'll just concede to the wisdom of rampant internet hate and play the bugs the way I feel they can be competitive. It's the best thing to do anyway...

You list Tyrants as an example and yet those got a stat boost and a 30 point drop for the standard (best) build. Primes did indeed take a nerf, and Tervigons a minor debuff, but they were the best unit in the game before! Now, they're still worth taking. And Zoanthropes got a boost thanks to points drop and the ability to keep Lance while being a supporter unit with Dominion.

Wait a minute how can something that just lost biomancy ,have better stats , then it had when it had biomancy to roll on ?

Zoanthropes as anti tank got severly nerfed too , because pods have been taken away from them . But as singles they are nids only options to get cheap synaps .

There are some cheap units like hormagaunts and termagants that really suffers from it. Most other units either have high Ld or an IB that doesnt really hurt, cause youre unit keeps doing the things they would normally do. Its not that hard to live with IB.

You don't always get to play missions where your tyranofex is scoring.

 Ailaros wrote:

Davor wrote:It's more of battered wife syndrome. You feel abused and unappreciated, GW spits in our faces, but we love them so much we can't leave.

Wow.

You know, you might as well go all the way here. People who like GW are like people who voted for the Nazi party in 1936. They enabled a system that brought misery to uncounted multitudes.

I wouldn't go that far. People say they have been betrayed by GW. So like a cheating spouse. People say they feel like GW spat in their faces so an abusive spouse. But no matter what GW does, people don't quit or as the wife leave their spouse.

With all the crying and complaining going on, if you really hate them that much, it's time to quit. To devote that much energy on a company you don't like, doesn't make really much sense to go on unless you really like them or love them. How else can you explain it? How can you explain you hate someone so much for doing so many bad things or doing you wrong all the time but yet you still stick around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just reread all the threads here. Now that I think about it, IF GW really have learnt their lesson, we will not really know until say 3 or 6 months from now, since anything being released right now, has already been planned so not many changes could really been made, since everything is/would already been printed and don't see GW recalling all the books to start over again.

Maybe now for the book that haven't been printed yet, can change.

I think the sales at least prove that they do quit GW and a let fewer new people are starting the game . In the 5th specialy when GK and SW came out there was a ton of new players . in the 6th it was mostly vets buying stuff to fix their armies for 6th ed. And I have yet to see someone want to start WFB after hearing that the starting point game is 2250 pts and normal is more like 2500-3000.

How else can you explain it?

That is easy , If I pay a lot of money for an army , I expect to play it for X time . It is the same with non table top games. A game can have awesome grafics and even not suck too in game play , but if I finish it under 20 hours I will be angry . And games are much cheaper , then W40k or WFB . If I had to use up the money I was saving up for almost 3 years working in the fields in germany , then I want at least 3 years of gaming out of it . And if I get the 3 years then I come up with a 0 gain .

The walking Tyrant build was always inferior to the Flytant, no surprise there. Losing access to Biomancy is not that big of a deal. There were two real powers there that Flyrants liked, Iron Arm and Endurance. Now we get Catalyst (far superior to Endurance) and a host of other powers. While one-on-one none are as good as Iron Arm, the whole of Tyranids is slightly superior to the whole of Biomancy as far as Flyrants go. Yes, Tervigons are worse. Worse doesn't equal bad! They're still useable, just don't barrel them downfield like we used to. Zoanthropes and Flyrants are both cheaper and better than before... let these be your two go-to synapse units. Primes are bad in my mind, but Tervigons have merits if you need more synapse. Also, some people like Trygon Primes and Warriors.

Also, playing off the difference between a Tervigon and Space Marines as "a bit of toughness" is insane. You're calling me crazy?

The one buff you could point out

I pointed out two. Zoanthropes and Flyrants are both better than they were in the last book.

The Tervigon now tanks most hits worse than the same amount of points put into a unit of Warriors

Why don't you take Warriors then? They're scoring, and they're synapse. 10 points per wound of T4 scoring plus bubbles of fearless is not bad at all.

There are options in this book, but not everything in the book is an option. Accept that. But, if you refuse to even consider anyone else's arguments as anything besides "crazy" and just want to hate the book, fine. Go ahead. But someone wants to get ideas on how to make Tyranids work, please don't try to shut down every piece of optimism.

Makumba wrote:

There are some cheap units like hormagaunts and termagants that really suffers from it. Most other units either have high Ld or an IB that doesnt really hurt, cause youre unit keeps doing the things they would normally do. Its not that hard to live with IB.

You don't always get to play missions where your tyranofex is scoring.

Thats not the point. The Point is some people pretend synapse affects the hole army and it doesnt. There are just a few units who really suffer from it and you have to buy a synapse for them. If you dont want to do that, take units that dont care about Synapse. Genestealers and Warriors are also scoring units and dont care about synapse. You can also put a prime into a large unit of gants and keep them in cover somewhere in the middle of the field... there are so many ways you just have to try something new.

 jifel wrote:

Spoiler:

 SHUPPET wrote:

*snip*

 jifel wrote:
@Shuppet: how on earth was every synapse creature nerfed? You list Tyrants as an example and yet those got a stat boost and a 30 point drop for the standard (best) build. Primes did indeed take a nerf, and Tervigons a minor debuff, but they were the best unit in the game before! Now, they're still worth taking. And Zoanthropes got a boost thanks to points drop and the ability to keep Lance while being a supporter unit with Dominion.

Tyrants were nerfed in the sense the walking build is no longer even slightly viable, with the removal of Armored Shell and all his brilliant close combat weapons being turned to trash, and all his rolls of Iron Arm / Warp Speed rolls being turned into rolls of Catalyst / Psychic Scream. The flying one was dropped 30 points and gained a point in BS but also lost its Biomancy, which at best is a sidegrade but more likely a nerf as they still have a similar amount of aggression while Biomancy was pretty important for keeping them alive. An opinion, you may not share it and may not feel the loss of survivability on your 230 pt glass cannon as much as I am, for whatever reason. However, to say Prime's and Tervigon took a minor nerf is beyond ridiculous. The Prime's point cost just about doubled, this is the price he payed to have all his weapon options nerfed and his biomorphs cost up to triple as much? Points to effeciency wise, The Tervigon now tanks most hits worse than the same amount of points put into a unit of Warriors, and no longer gives any bonuses to your actual best troop choice (the Gants) and takes out A LOT of them when he dies making his Synapse a liability to be kept away from your gribblies. He went from being good (far from OP, I never ran more than one - people spammed him because of his versatility) to being something that should probably never see any further play. Tell me more about how a 6W 3+ is an amazing troop choice no matter what they do to it, and I'll tell you how for the same points cost a couple of space marine units are pretty comparable to this with 15 wounds 3+ at a lower toughness, except with far more competitive options and transports than just "spawning gaunts", and are certainly not making waves in the competitive scene. Zoanthrope got a buff in the sense that they got 10 points cheaper, and an extra power that they will never use if they are doing their job, and got a nerf in the fact that they lost pods and became a Brotherhood. Both these things are pretty big and not worth the 10 points saved in choosing whether to take a unit.


At the end of the day, if you honestly think our Synapse is in good shape you are crazy. The one buff you could point out was the buff to Flyrants, great two of them max per list with no more sensible variations for the build anymore, and then a bunch of crappy options forced on the table just to stop your army from eating itself.

The walking Tyrant build was always inferior to the Flytant, no surprise there. Losing access to Biomancy is not that big of a deal. There were two real powers there that Flyrants liked, Iron Arm and Endurance. Now we get Catalyst (far superior to Endurance) and a host of other powers. While one-on-one none are as good as Iron Arm, the whole of Tyranids is slightly superior to the whole of Biomancy as far as Flyrants go. Yes, Tervigons are worse. Worse doesn't equal bad! They're still useable, just don't barrel them downfield like we used to. Zoanthropes and Flyrants are both cheaper and better than before... let these be your two go-to synapse units. Primes are bad in my mind, but Tervigons have merits if you need more synapse. Also, some people like Trygon Primes and Warriors.

Biomancy isn't a big deal? Walking Tyrant always inferior to the Flyrant so not a big deal either? only TWO powers we liked from the table? Man you have a severely skewed opinion of the last dex, it seems strikingly shallow as though you have read a lot but not actually played it enough (or at all) to process and put into perspective the information you've read. Yes Flyrants were more playable than walkers in the past dex, but it was not because of some drastic difference of power. It was because the style of play was much more suited to a faster aggressive style, eg Trygons (overcosted now thanks to ScyTal nerf), Devilgaunts in a pod for your troops, Doom, Deepstriking Thropes, etc, so a walking Tyrant would see very little use granting Old Adversary to your Tervigons instead of your threats and not having its guns where the rest of your army is. In this dex a footslogging army is much more valid and as such so WOULD be the walking Tyrant, with Tyrannofex's being much more playable (carnifexes too), Exocrines, Hormagant buff, the Leaper, etc. All this stuff aside walking Tyrant STILL was played last dex, and will NOT be played in this one. The fact that close combat Tyrant is a waste of points now actually is pretty big, and the fact even with the valid (read: inevitable) walking style of army lists in the new dex he is still too badly nerfed to see play says something. I don't even want to mention how bad the OA nerf was for Hive Tyrant. I know you weren't the guy talking about Synergy, but that nerf is a perfect example of Synergy being taken OUT of the dex.

Yes Iron Arm was the best roll, probably replaced by Catalyst on the new table, the second spot going to Endurance you feel goes to Warp Blast instead for some added utility at the cost of firing one of your guns, these two powers hardly seem to even come close to value of the Biomancy ones, but here's what you are missing. the biomancy table was far more than these two powers. Haemorrhage being the BAD roll, which we can call The Horror on the new table, the other rolls you will land on are pretty noncomparable. While Biomancy has Enfeeble, Leechlife and Warp Speed, PotHM has Onslaught, Paroxysm and Psychic Scream. Let us really not forget that in the last dex we could just straight choose to take these powers anyway on Flyrant should we have wanted them (and we didn't) and not have to roll, another option taken away. But you said Biomancy as a whole being taken away doesn't affect much, and let's not forget the other units that could roll on it. Tervigon with Crushing Claws and 3 rolls on the Biomancy table was not something to be sniffed at for 215 pts. And basically anything you could roll was infinitely more reliable and useful for Broodlord than the Horror. A 180 pt Zoanthrope squad got 6 Biomancy rolls and could cast 3 of them a turn, making them an excellent toolkit and something I would on the fly turn my Thropes into on a gamepergame basis if I felt it was more important than Lances, similar to the ability to drop one roll on Telepathy for gauranteed Shriek or possibly something even better which was great at wrecking Tau/IG infantry and still have a Biomancy roll remaining. I think you are seriously dismissing how good they actually were which once again is suggestive that it is something you may have just read and not actually playtested yourself to know how important BRB powers actually were.

 jifel wrote:
Also, playing off the difference between a Tervigon and Space Marines as "a bit of toughness" is insane. You're calling me crazy?

But it IS just a bit of toughness. Do you find it easier to deal 6 T6 wounds or 15 T4 wounds? I think at the very least it is a pretty comparably equal statistic. This is completely ignoring the fact that the Tervigon can't take Rhino's that need to be punched through first, and only has a 1 in 5 chance of rolling Catalyst and not Onslaught or Psychic Scream or something just as stupid, as opposed to even some of the worse rolls on the Biomancy table like Endurance and Life Leech still adding far more to your survivability (just mentioning this because it is another nerf that you merrily dismissed).

 jifel wrote:

The one buff you could point out

I pointed out two. Zoanthropes and Flyrants are both better than they were in the last book.

While I can see the "argument" for Flyrants being improved (which they haven't), you can't just say "zoanthrope is better than the last book" without giving any evidence. I could say Mawlocs are worse than before (I mean mishapping isn't ideal) but it would be far from the truth and far from looking at the broad picture. In no way shape or form is losing the mobility of drop pods (which were auto-take with ZThropes), and being able to deny all 3 powers in a single roll (after not failing a to hit or a manifestation roll), a good trade off for 10 points and a power that you will only have to use if your zoanthropes aren't doing their role. Which it is highly plausible that they won't be now that they have no Pods to drop in with. The mitigation of them not being able to accomplish the role you are paying your points for them to do, by giving them a roll hoping for Catalyst, does not count as a buff. They have been undeniably nerfed.

 jifel wrote:

The Tervigon now tanks most hits worse than the same amount of points put into a unit of Warriors

Why don't you take Warriors then? They're scoring, and they're synapse. 10 points per wound of T4 scoring plus bubbles of fearless is not bad at all.

And I do take Warriors. Certainly not religiously, but they fulfil the role Tervigon played in the last dex better than Tervigon does now. Just a sidenote: looking at them as 10 points per wound of T4 scoring might be accurate but is somewhat indescriptive / misleading. The fact that they are 3 wounds per model often makes them 30 points per wound, which is how you have to look at them to take them. Even at this price they are still cheaper per wound than Tervigon and have far more aggression. If you are lucky you will get to count them as 10 ppW , making them absolutely amazing somewhat akin to scoring Terminators. But none of this makes them any better than they were in the last book. In fact, thanks to Lash Whip and Bonesword nerfs they are potentially much weaker. The fact that they have no Pods now seals the deal. Another Synapse unit, nerfed.

 jifel wrote:
There are options in this book, but not everything in the book is an option. Accept that. But, if you refuse to even consider anyone else's arguments as anything besides "crazy" and just want to hate the book, fine. Go ahead. But someone wants to get ideas on how to make Tyranids work, please don't try to shut down every piece of optimism.

woahwoahwoahwoahwoah - Where did I once say there is no options in this book ? When do I shoot down every piece of optimism? When do I refuse to consider and label every opinion said by someone else as crazy?
I pointed out the FACT that our Synapse options have gotten worse - and that to say otherwise is crazy. If there is optimism I support it - Venomthropes, Deathleapers, Mawlocs, etc. You can't just disagree with my point of view and then attach all this random crap to me about being blind to the strengths of the new nids. I know what the strengths are quite well and am very open to making it work (which is what I have done in many different ways since the dex dropped), while you seem quite unwilling to accept different possibilities than your own initial (and quite shallow) assumptions. If you would like to talk about some of the ways to make the new book work I am very happy to and would love some new perspectives while sharing some of my own. However, me just saying that Synapse creatures have been nerfed, and that the new Dex is poorly written and highly constrictive is in no way me sharing my opinion on the ways to make it work, nor is it me condemning it as it as weak and unplayable - and I don't think you have been able to differentiate this so far.

Even from the starting gate, the Tyranid codex has major problems that other codexes don't have

1. No access to allies
2. No access to rulebook powers
3. Random effects that punish the army after certain units have been destroyed.

Tyranids are the only codex not to have allies, but yet don't get a something else to replace it (an altered FOC).

Tau don't have access to rulebook psychic powers, but have markerlights and battlesuit upgrades to make up for this. Tyranids have their one table.

Daemons have the random Warp Storm table, but this effects both armies equally. Tyranids get no (real) benefits for having Synapse.

In answer to the original question though, yes GW has learned their lesson. They're now releasing minis before the release the rules and put people off.

No benefits for having Instinctive Behaviour I think you mean.

 Ailaros wrote:

Davor wrote:It's more of battered wife syndrome. You feel abused and unappreciated, GW spits in our faces, but we love them so much we can't leave.

Wow.

You know, you might as well go all the way here. People who like GW are like people who voted for the Nazi party in 1936. They enabled a system that brought misery to uncounted multitudes.

If we're going all the way with this wouldn't the real blame for the Nazis rising to power be the writers of the Treaty of Versailles? I mean they're the ones that completely boned Germany and gave Hitler the fuel he needed to start his regime...

Bartali wrote:
Tyranids get no (real) benefits for having Synapse.

Because being fearless and providing Shadows in the Warp to take enemy psykers down -3 leadership isn't a benefit. /sarcasm off

To add something to the zoanthrope debate above: Zoanthropes got both better and worse. In the past, they either stuck with codex powers to provide anti-tank or took biomancy and hoped for some good rolls. They couldn't buff and provide nasty shooting in the same game. Now, they'll always be able to provide decent shooting as well as potentially buff or debuff. (though obviously not in the same turn as the warp blast power is 2 warp charges).

 Voidwraith wrote:

Bartali wrote:
Tyranids get no (real) benefits for having Synapse.

Because being fearless and providing Shadows in the Warp to take enemy psykers down -3 leadership isn't a benefit. /sarcasm off

To add something to the zoanthrope debate above: Zoanthropes got both better and worse. In the past, they either stuck with codex powers to provide anti-tank or took biomancy and hoped for some good rolls. They couldn't buff and provide nasty shooting in the same game. Now, they'll always be able to provide decent shooting as well as potentially buff or debuff. (though obviously not in the same turn as the warp blast power is 2 warp charges).

Synapse doesn't provide SITW, that's separate.

And fearless is nice, but not being in Synapse is a horrible thing that makes the new synapse worse, the old chart was manageable, the new chart is not.

 Voidwraith wrote:

Bartali wrote:
Tyranids get no (real) benefits for having Synapse.

Because being fearless and providing Shadows in the Warp to take enemy psykers down -3 leadership isn't a benefit. /sarcasm off

To add something to the zoanthrope debate above: Zoanthropes got both better and worse. In the past, they either stuck with codex powers to provide anti-tank or took biomancy and hoped for some good rolls. They couldn't buff and provide nasty shooting in the same game. Now, they'll always be able to provide decent shooting as well as potentially buff or debuff. (though obviously not in the same turn as the warp blast power is 2 warp charges).

As mentioned, SitW and Synapse are two completely different rules that (sometimes) happen to have the same range. SitW is also completely wasted on armies that don't run psykers, with Tau being the most obvious example.

Zoanthropes get plainly worse in the newest book. The 10 point drop is literally their only beneficial change from the last edition.

Brotherhood of Psykers (even at level 2) is plainly worse than having 2-3 individual level 2 psykers (it's virtually identical for a single model unit). 3 psykers would be able to mix and match not only powers known, but also powers used each turn. The new brood is incapable of both blasting and buffing; the old brood could.
Loss of power charts. Now Zoanthropes get Warp Blast (WC2) and one roll from the chart, where everything is WC1. Previously, I could could hope for 2 rolls of WC1 powers which would allow me to use both. Now, I get to use one power or the other, per brood.
Loss of Mycetic Spores means that Warp Blast is no longer all but guaranteed to be where you need it. Now, it's stuck trudging along the battlefield (like everything else that lost Spods), taking fire from longer range weaponry (see: Wave Serpent shields, anything S8+, or even autocannons). Sure, it's got a 3++ save (the only general invulnerable in the entire codex, mind you), but it's still T4 W2.

 streamdragon wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:

Bartali wrote:
Tyranids get no (real) benefits for having Synapse.

Because being fearless and providing Shadows in the Warp to take enemy psykers down -3 leadership isn't a benefit. /sarcasm off

To add something to the zoanthrope debate above: Zoanthropes got both better and worse. In the past, they either stuck with codex powers to provide anti-tank or took biomancy and hoped for some good rolls. They couldn't buff and provide nasty shooting in the same game. Now, they'll always be able to provide decent shooting as well as potentially buff or debuff. (though obviously not in the same turn as the warp blast power is 2 warp charges).

As mentioned, SitW and Synapse are two completely different rules that (sometimes) happen to have the same range. SitW is also completely wasted on armies that don't run psykers, with Tau being the most obvious example.

Zoanthropes get plainly worse in the newest book. The 10 point drop is literally their only beneficial change from the last edition.

Brotherhood of Psykers (even at level 2) is plainly worse than having 2-3 individual level 2 psykers (it's virtually identical for a single model unit). 3 psykers would be able to mix and match not only powers known, but also powers used each turn. The new brood is incapable of both blasting and buffing; the old brood could.
Loss of power charts. Now Zoanthropes get Warp Blast (WC2) and one roll from the chart, where everything is WC1. Previously, I could could hope for 2 rolls of WC1 powers which would allow me to use both. Now, I get to use one power or the other, per brood.
Loss of Mycetic Spores means that Warp Blast is no longer all but guaranteed to be where you need it. Now, it's stuck trudging along the battlefield (like everything else that lost Spods), taking fire from longer range weaponry (see: Wave Serpent shields, anything S8+, or even autocannons). Sure, it's got a 3++ save (the only general invulnerable in the entire codex, mind you), but it's still T4 W2.

This pretty much sums it up. I don't know what Voidwraith is on about, but in the old codex you could cast a buff and 2 lances in the same turn let alone same game, the new one can't do this. The new one also lost pods which was the only thing that made Zoanthropes viable. Now you will spend a bunch of turns not lancing anything as opposed to guaranteed 3 lances on turn two with a roll of +2 thx to Hive Commander. Trading this off for an extra power, that every single Zoanthrope has to be used at once to cast? That you wouldn't need to be casting at all in the old dex because you would be lancing or blasting instead? How anyone can spin this into a positive change to the unit is beyond me.

Speaking as a casual nid player, who routinely spammed close combat warriors in pods, this book was a monumental disappointment. Not only did boneswords and lash whips get nerfed down to near uselessness, but the cost of fielding comparable warriors went up. WARRIORS. Not one of the power units people moaned about but, f---- WARRIORS. Toss in the removal of pods and the casual nid player got raped even harder by this book than the competitive player.

When they let it slip that Cruddace wrote this turd, I was not in the least bit surprised. The only even remotely workable book he has made in his entire tenure at GW was the current guard book, which was mostly by accident since a half dozen units out of the 40 in that book were bound to be playable, if only by random chance. Everything that guy has touched in the hobby has turned to manure. Say what you want about Matt Ward or Phail Kelly, at least their books are playable.

Their crappy playtesting is equally to blame. How can we expect anyone to come up with anything balanced when their playtesting is either non existent or very incompetent.

I am still waiting for them to come out with errata for the burning chariot, but I stopped holding my breath a year ago.

IB does not really help with the scoring of this game. Who wants a big baddie to babysit a unit sitting on an objective when the baddie is required to bash some enemies instead.

I would not be so quick to condemn the playtesting. First off, they are usually just using a group of suck ups to do it in the first place who will get kicked off the gravy train if they dissent. Second, even when they do raise an objection (and to hear it told, this book caused a lot of objections) they generally get ignored.

 Phazael wrote:
I would not be so quick to condemn the playtesting. First off, they are usually just using a group of suck ups to do it in the first place who will get kicked off the gravy train if they dissent. Second, even when they do raise an objection (and to hear it told, this book caused a lot of objections) they generally get ignored.

...which is exactly why they have awful playtesting and why it shows in their products.