Who do you consider to be most at fault when it comes to laying blame for the Horus Heresy? Who contributed most? This is a broad topic, as there is plenty of blame to go around, and there are still plenty of Horus Heresy novels being released. I find myself absolutely loathing Erebus - he's sneaky, conniving, and incredibly evil.

The Emperor. He did not adequately arm his sons for the task ahead of them, specifically in regards to the Warp, and he put far too much power in the hands of a single one of them.

Of course previously- before the current series- Horus is simply possessed in a moment of vulnerability rather than turning, which would defray much of the fault from the Emperor.

hmm hard one, Lorgar had a hand in it, but i feel the blame lies with Typhon, Kor phaeron and Erebus, had these 3 not turned then perhaps lorgar would have not turned, imagine an imperium with its soul guarded by the word bearers

 Formosa wrote:
hmm hard one, Lorgar had a hand in it, but i feel the blame lies with Typhon, Kor phaeron and Erebus, had these 3 not turned then perhaps lorgar would have not turned, imagine an imperium with its soul guarded by the word bearers

Lorgar is a weakling, an emotional fanatic. It really wasn't a surprise to me to learn that the Word Bearers were at the root of the Heresy sprouting.

Lorgar was indeed weak and a fanatic, his actions in first heretic show this quite well, however in betrayer he is a whole different kettle of fish, it seems he has a handle on how chaos works and functions on a fundamental level, thats pretty boss

I'd have to say the Emperor made the biggest mess. Messed up with a certain World Eater primarch, tried to ban arguably the second greatest psyker ever from using his powers, let his liking for Horus blind him, just crushed Lorgar's planet ruthlessly not thinking of possible implications, let several legions run around wildly just messing around, etc. Also, if the rumors that he got the ability to make the primarchs by dabbling with the chaos gods is correct, that just pokes even more holes in it all. The dude failed dad parenting 101. Oh, and he forgot to actually warn about the warp and the badness of it.

Discounting the Emperor, I'd argue the Eldar (cabal) are also quite guilty of the disaster. They really did many a thing wrong and honestly it really might come to bite them in the future. I wouldn't really put Lorgar as the root of the blame, Typhon, Kor Phaeron, and Erebus are, in my opinion, much more at fault as their corruption was what really set it off.

I guess you could also say that the Ruinous Powers were largely at fault

Has Erebus's side of the story been novelized yet? I've only read about 13 of the novels up to this point, mostly in order (Mechanicum and Fallen Angels are both seemingly rare and hard to find, even online) and I'm reading Fear to Tread now.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Has Erebus's side of the story been novelized yet? I've only read about 13 of the novels up to this point, mostly in order (Mechanicum and Fallen Angels are both seemingly rare and hard to find, even online) and I'm reading Fear to Tread now.

nope, I have a hunch he's not exactly a very... relateable character

The Emperor. Making a deal with Chaos to create Legions and Primarchs, reneging on them, and then giving the badly mishandled armies waiting for a reason to turn.

Erebus. I havent read the whole heresy series, but man I hope that ass hole dies.

I havent read the novels as im not a fan but didnt the emperor ignore the eldar when they warned him? (despite him apparently able to understand anything due to his intellect, which is really stupid...)

So in short the emperor. Who was too arrogant and short sited to do anything useful.

Mcfloonoo wrote:
Erebus. I havent read the whole heresy series, but man I hope that ass hole dies.

Couldn't agree more, every time he's in the presence of a loyalist marine/Primarch I keep hoping they'll tear his head off.

It is just so many small (and large) happenings and events that collectively led to the heresy. It would be easier trying to find that last drop that made the bucket overflow.

I think the Heresy and the manner in which it ultimately unfolded stems ultimately from the Emperor being a total sham. I personally can't decide if this is a product of poor writing or if we just haven't been shown enough about the Emperor's actions, but there are just so many mind bogglingly poor decisions being made by a being that we've been told: 1) watched humanity for thousands of years before acting; 2) is a super scientist whose ideology is one of reason; and, 3) is massively psychic. Two big ideas jump out at me in this regard:

His total lack of understanding of emotions:
-The handling of the Word Bearers. He put the ideology of his vision ahead of the character of Lorgar. Rather than compromising or having an open dialogue, he publicly shamed his most fragile son. This shows an absolute lack of understanding of emotional responses.
-The acceptance of Curze and Angron as generals of his armies. It doesn't make any sense given what we're told about the Emperor, that he couldn't tell these two were train wrecks. He could have folded their legions into the existing forces and not have risked the obvious consequences of their behavior.
-There are also probably other examples, such as with Perturabo, who felt unrecognized or under appreciated, or Mortarion, who was kind of a broody jerk and probably needed a hug.

His ironic inconsistent application of reason:
-Denying the primarchs and their legions knowledge about the warp and of chaos. This one is a doozy. What if Magnus had actually understood the nature of the Ruinous Powers? What if Fulgrim had known to be wary of chaos artifacts and demons? What if Lorgar had understood that the reason the emperor didn't want to be worshiped was that there actually were gods in the warp and that rationalism was the only way to overcome them? That he didn't share the information with them is embarrassing.
-We're told he designed the natures of the primarchs. It's arguable that his work was affected by their casting out into the universe by the gods. However we're still continually told that the primarchs manifest the spectrum of his character. If that is the case, his handling of Lorgar and Magnus become even more troubling. We're led to believe that he designed a psychic juggernaut and a zealot, but didn't follow up on his designs with proper instruction? That's not very reasonable.

 Forcemajeure wrote:
It is just so many small (and large) happenings and events that collectively led to the heresy. It would be easier trying to find that last drop that made the bucket overflow.

Spoiler:

I was just going to say how has no one blamed the Chaos Gods yet? They saw a threat in the Emperor and worked against him, orchestrating a plain to essentially undo all the good he was doing. The Horus Heresy was just the climax of what they wanted.

I was just going to say how has no one blamed the Chaos Gods yet? They saw a threat in the Emperor and worked against him, orchestrating a plain to essentially undo all the good he was doing. The Horus Heresy was just the climax of what they wanted.

I really seem them more as a natural force rather than a character that can be blamed.

I pretty much agree exactly with jojo on this

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:

 Forcemajeure wrote:
It is just so many small (and large) happenings and events that collectively led to the heresy. It would be easier trying to find that last drop that made the bucket overflow.

Spoiler:

I was just going to say how has no one blamed the Chaos Gods yet? They saw a threat in the Emperor and worked against him, orchestrating a plain to essentially undo all the good he was doing. The Horus Heresy was just the climax of what they wanted.

I take offense! I also blamed them

Anyways, the reason I pause about that is.... the warp is the warp. The chaos gods are not gods nor are they really characters. They are more the combination of a quadrillion+ dreams and souls amassed within the warp. They move with an alien comprehension that is so focused on letting them live more but..... we can't really even tell how they function? Tzeentch really doesn't have an overarching plan instead opting just to have change for change's sake to promote further change etc. Also because if we all just blamed the Chaos Gods, well come on the Horus Heresy was where CSM and most chaos forces came from. Plus we wouldn't be able to riff on the Emperor that, for all his brilliance, really does some stupid stuff.

The Chaos Gods are the anthropomorphic personification of Warp Storms, so...

The false corpse-emperor of course...

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
I think the Heresy and the manner in which it ultimately unfolded stems ultimately from the Emperor being a total sham. I personally can't decide if this is a product of poor writing or if we just haven't been shown enough about the Emperor's actions, but there are just so many mind bogglingly poor decisions being made by a being that we've been told: 1) watched humanity for thousands of years before acting; 2) is a super scientist whose ideology is one of reason; and, 3) is massively psychic. Two big ideas jump out at me in this regard:

His total lack of understanding of emotions:
-The handling of the Word Bearers. He put the ideology of his vision ahead of the character of Lorgar. Rather than compromising or having an open dialogue, he publicly shamed his most fragile son. This shows an absolute lack of understanding of emotional responses.
-The acceptance of Curze and Angron as generals of his armies. It doesn't make any sense given what we're told about the Emperor, that he couldn't tell these two were train wrecks. He could have folded their legions into the existing forces and not have risked the obvious consequences of their behavior.
-There are also probably other examples, such as with Perturabo, who felt unrecognized or under appreciated, or Mortarion, who was kind of a broody jerk and probably needed a hug.

His ironic inconsistent application of reason:
-Denying the primarchs and their legions knowledge about the warp and of chaos. This one is a doozy. What if Magnus had actually understood the nature of the Ruinous Powers? What if Fulgrim had known to be wary of chaos artifacts and demons? What if Lorgar had understood that the reason the emperor didn't want to be worshiped was that there actually were gods in the warp and that rationalism was the only way to overcome them? That he didn't share the information with them is embarrassing.
-We're told he designed the natures of the primarchs. It's arguable that his work was affected by their casting out into the universe by the gods. However we're still continually told that the primarchs manifest the spectrum of his character. If that is the case, his handling of Lorgar and Magnus become even more troubling. We're led to believe that he designed a psychic juggernaut and a zealot, but didn't follow up on his designs with proper instruction? That's not very reasonable.

You nailed it.

A lot of people made contributions to the Heresy, but the Emperor shoulders most of the blame. For a being with such power, experience and insight, he makes a whole ton of extremely moronic choices.

In short; The Emperor for being a terrible father.

Considering the Emperor's vaunted power and abilities, and the fact that he is the most powerful human/trans-human/being in the universe, I can't help but wonder, every single time some disastrous event occurs within the 40k universe, if maybe all of this is some kind of grand design by the Emperor himself. Isn't it possible he wanted all of these events to unfold? To what end, I can't imagine, as the 40k lore hasn't been fleshed out nearly enough (and most likely never will be), but if he's practically a god, I don't think this possibility can be discounted, for the following reasons:

- He's the most powerful psychic force in the universe (his spirit/presence alone is the cause of the Astronomican)
- He has communed with the Chaos Gods (and possibly other warp/xenos forces) to gain knowledge and power, very little of which is explained and the extent of which hasn't been made clear
- He created the Primarchs and the Astartes, so who would know their capabilities/loyalties/genetic traits better than he would?

I don't think it would be a stretch to say that he placed Horus in the position of Warmaster as a test of his loyalty or resolve, or that his harshness in dealing with Lorgar and Magnus was out of simple ignorance or wrath. Surely, as the creator of all the Primarchs, he would know his own sons better than anyone - their capabilities, loyalties, strengths, and weaknesses. It's remote, but I still think it's a possibility.

Well the Emperor first, as he failed to properly instruct his sons and the legions of Astartes on why Chaos is really really bad and the full extent of the threat.

After the Emperor's critical failure, Erebus. He was pretty much behind it all. It really shouldn't be called the Horus Heresy, but rather the Erebus Heresy, or at least the Word Bearer Heresy.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Well the Emperor first, as he failed to properly instruct his sons and the legions of Astartes on why Chaos is really really bad and the full extent of the threat.

After the Emperor's critical failure, Erebus. He was pretty much behind it all. It really shouldn't be called the Horus Heresy, but rather the Erebus Heresy, or at least the Word Bearer Heresy.

Horus was named Warmaster though, and had infinitely more influence than Lorgar ever would, especially with his fellow Primarchs. If I remember correctly, almost all of Lorgar's brothers despised him. In a few ways I can sympathize with Lorgar - he states that even though he was born to be an Admiral, a warrior leading warriors, he never felt like one. Horus had the power, and was already feeling alienated from the Emperor because of the bureaucracy of the politicians and High Council on Terra. It was perfectly orchestrated by Chaos to pick on the most fanatical, disillusioned and emotional Primarch as a means to corrupt Horus.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say Chaos is to blame for the Horus Heresy.

Its all the eldars fault, if they had not had the fall that created slaanesh then the warp storms that cut off terra wouldnot have dissipated and allowed the emperor to launch the crusade in the first place. Probably goes further back butterfly flapping its wings style.

I put it down to poor writing. Theres too many mind-boggling poor decisions made on the emperors part.

Chaos... obviously. Everything else is circumstantial.

The Emperor is to blame mostly. However despite his poor portrayals, I tend to believe that because he is an immortal psychic uberhuman he simply doesn't understand why no one can grasp his vision or decisions. He has this master plan that he doesn't share with his genetically created sons, not out of security, but because he expects his progeny to simply understand his vision. This is often reflected in how the Primarch deal with their Astartes progeny.

The Emperor. He has been written as making, as stated by mitch_rifle, the most absolutely mind-bogglingly stupid decisions just to have the Heresy exist as a plot device. There is no way everything else written about the Emperor makes sense in light of how he handled the events so idiotically leading up to the Heresy.

Who is to blame for the Heresy?

GW. Pure and simple. Though I think the squats might have given them a hand. That's why they "disappeared".

No-one has said Horus yet? I need to read these books, because I'm really misinformed about this whole thing. For all I know, then, they named it the Horus Heresy for the alliteration shenanigans.

The Emperor is a great physic, scientist, fighter, leader etc.. but a poor father... and the fathered 20 sons no less!

Under current court of law the Emperor would have to take some blame. But Horus is over 18 when he commited the hersey, he is mature enough in the eyes of the court to take full responsibility for his actions. Even accounting the fact he has a poor upbringing, bad influencial brothers and worst friends from these brothers.

Erebus, and when I say "blame" what I really mean is "congratulate".

 The Shadow wrote:
No-one has said Horus yet? I need to read these books, because I'm really misinformed about this whole thing. For all I know, then, they named it the Horus Heresy for the alliteration shenanigans.

In the first heresy books we learn that hours is at heart, a good and honest man, all he wants is to please his father, yet repeately he is locked out. That, coupled with the decrees of the high lords, and the great crusade it'self, with the whispered advice of Erebus, drive him over the very edge.

The Emperor. If he hadn't he been such a dill weed to the Word Bearers, Erebus would have never fallen to Chaos and the whole Heresy wouldn't have happened.

 Kojiro wrote:
The Emperor. He did not adequately arm his sons for the task ahead of them, specifically in regards to the Warp, and he put far too much power in the hands of a single one of them.

Of course previously- before the current series- Horus is simply possessed in a moment of vulnerability rather than turning, which would defray much of the fault from the Emperor.

Emperor for sure. Magnus , Angron, and most importantly Lorgar only turn because of the emperor sucking at handling just about any situation

Everyone is at fault, which is kind of the point. The Horus Heresy reeks of Greek tragedy, just without the Deus Ex Machina at the end to make everything alright going forward.

It's like arguing over who was really to blame for the Trojan War. Lots of blame can be thrown around for that one, too, because the point is the combined weakness of men creates unecessary violence and complete, pointless tragedy and suffering.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
hmm hard one, Lorgar had a hand in it, but i feel the blame lies with Typhon, Kor phaeron and Erebus, had these 3 not turned then perhaps lorgar would have not turned, imagine an imperium with its soul guarded by the word bearers

Lorgar is a weakling, an emotional fanatic. It really wasn't a surprise to me to learn that the Word Bearers were at the root of the Heresy sprouting.

Lorgar becomes one of the surest stongest Primarch's. Sanguinis doubts his self worth a lot more

The Shadow wrote:No-one has said Horus yet?

Yeah, seriously, what?

It's the HORUS heresy. If Horus didn't exist, there wouldn't be the heresy, at least not in the way it played out. At every step of the series of events, things were critically determined by the actions of Horus. He was the one in charge, and the one who made things happen.

I wonder if some people think that gun violence is the result of our education system or our economy, rather than because people shoot each other...

 Ailaros wrote:

The Shadow wrote:No-one has said Horus yet?

Yeah, seriously, what?

It's the HORUS heresy. If Horus didn't exist, there wouldn't be the heresy, at least not in the way it played out. At every step of the series of events, things were critically determined by the actions of Horus. He was the one in charge, and the one who made things happen.

I wonder if some people think that gun violence is the result of our education system or our economy, rather than because people shoot each other...

It's really the Lorgar Heresy. It just would have taken longer without Horus. Lorgar would have had to fully come into his own before he gained enough respect, but by the time of say "Aurelian" he is more powerful than every traitor Primarch. He beats the piss out of Fulgrim, who is possessed by a demon and even more powerful, he's developed use of his psychic power, and basically has become a badass almost unequaled. If he kept things under wrap until this point his innate ability to inspire coupled with the respect he would have slowly gained for his increased confidence an strength most likely would have resulted in a Heresy anyway

 Ailaros wrote:

The Shadow wrote:No-one has said Horus yet?

Yeah, seriously, what?

It's the HORUS heresy. If Horus didn't exist, there wouldn't be the heresy, at least not in the way it played out. At every step of the series of events, things were critically determined by the actions of Horus. He was the one in charge, and the one who made things happen.

I wonder if some people think that gun violence is the result of our education system or our economy, rather than because people shoot each other...

If Horus hadn't existed then there'd have to have been a different primarch for the Luna Wolves, and I'm sure they would have bowed just as easily to Lorgar.
I think I read in a Darren Shan book (don't judge) that if you went back in time and killed Hitler before he came to lead the Nazis things would've turned out the same, just people would hate a different guy with a different face.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jakejackjake wrote:

It's really the Lorgar Heresy. It just would have taken longer without Horus. Lorgar would have had to fully come into his own before he gained enough respect, but by the time of say "Aurelian" he is more powerful than every traitor Primarch. He beats the piss out of Fulgrim, who is possessed by a demon and even more powerful, he's developed use of his psychic power, and basically has become a badass almost unequaled. If he kept things under wrap until this point his innate ability to inspire coupled with the respect he would have slowly gained for his increased confidence an strength most likely would have resulted in a Heresy anyway

I also agree with this guy, there would've been a Heresy regardless of Horus.
Just he made it all happen at the same time.
Legions would have broken off due to internal conflict, just as in the 41st Millenium Chapters turn Renegade.

 Ailaros wrote:

The Shadow wrote:No-one has said Horus yet?

Yeah, seriously, what?

It's the HORUS heresy. If Horus didn't exist, there wouldn't be the heresy, at least not in the way it played out. At every step of the series of events, things were critically determined by the actions of Horus. He was the one in charge, and the one who made things happen.

I wonder if some people think that gun violence is the result of our education system or our economy, rather than because people shoot each other...

Hint: It kinda is.

And no, Horus really didn't have much of a part in the Horus Heresy for actually starting it. The only special thing about Horus was that he had the connections to drag other primarchs with him after the Chaos Gods manipulated him into being their puppet. Erebus, Lorgar, and the rest of the Word Bearers are the actual cause of the Horus Heresy, and the whole thing would have never happened had the Emperor actually been a good father. Horus really isn't the person to blame when he was pretty much a puppet/weapon wielded by other parties and was manipulated over the course of a year (or more) into doing so.

BrotherOfBone wrote:If Horus hadn't existed then there'd have to have been a different primarch for the Luna Wolves

And if Horus hadn't have gone heretical, there wouldn't have been a Horus Heresy.

Wyzilla wrote:Hint: It kinda is.

Really...

I personally still subscribe to the theory that the emperor is nothing but a conduit of tzeentch. Chaos by nature is divided and fragmentary, wont to turn upon itself and more fatally, it consumes like a glutton. If left unopposed chaos would have completely and utterly destroyed mankind, thus deriving itself from what it needs to exist. No, the heresy makes perfect sense if you see it from the point that the empires inception at its very root was nothing but creating an adversary to unite against and to keep chaos in check. The empire has been stagnant and unchanging even with all the intrigue and corruption going on within it. Though the status quo is now frozen in place with neither side ever winning isn't that tzeentches most defining trait, he orchestrates events to create endless struggles, endless new schemes and endless amounts of new and exciting ways to conflict but in the end there is no end game. The entire imperium is an inexhaustible source of intrigue, betrayal and scheming minds but they will never amount to anything. Change without end, stagnation without actually beeing unchanging. It makes perfect sense. Its like tzeentch turned the entire friggen universe into his own personal tic tac toe game and hes utterly content to play even though he knows he can never beat himself.

 Ailaros wrote:

BrotherOfBone wrote:If Horus hadn't existed then there'd have to have been a different primarch for the Luna Wolves

And if Horus hadn't have gone heretical, there wouldn't have been a Horus Heresy.

The facts remains that Horus didn't start the Heresy - the Word Bearers truly did.

And if Horus hadn't have gotten involved, it would have been the Word Bearer Heresy.

I mean, what people are essentially arguing here is that the Armenian Genocide wasn't perpetrated by the Turks because lots of people were fighting World War I at the time.

 Ailaros wrote:
And if Horus hadn't have gotten involved, it would have been the Word Bearer Heresy.

I mean, what people are essentially arguing here is that the Armenian Genocide wasn't perpetrated by the Turks because lots of people were fighting World War I at the time.

Horus was simply a means to an end - he had the power, influence, and ability to corrupt and fashion a force capable of attacking the Emperor and the Loyalist forces. The Word Bearers couldn't accomplish those things alone.

The Emperor for being an inhuman Richard, all of this could have been averted, if he had acted like a human being.

 Ailaros wrote:
And if Horus hadn't have gotten involved, it would have been the Word Bearer Heresy.

I mean, what people are essentially arguing here is that the Armenian Genocide wasn't perpetrated by the Turks because lots of people were fighting World War I at the time.

Actually no it's nothing like that. No one is saying that Horus didn't perpetrate that Horus Heresy. We are saying he isn't solely or mainly responsible for starting it. A lot of work went in to making him fall and a lot could have been done to solve the problem before it really became one

You have a very simplified way of looking at things which doesn't line up with 40k or reality.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
hmm hard one, Lorgar had a hand in it, but i feel the blame lies with Typhon, Kor phaeron and Erebus, had these 3 not turned then perhaps lorgar would have not turned, imagine an imperium with its soul guarded by the word bearers

Lorgar is a weakling, an emotional fanatic. It really wasn't a surprise to me to learn that the Word Bearers were at the root of the Heresy sprouting.

Interesting that it didn't surprise you seeing as Lorgar's weak character wasn't really explored until "The First Herectic, which was book 14 in the series. When it was revealed in book 2 that Erebus, at the behest of Lorgar, had been sent to turn Horus to Chaos. Nothing in the 20 years or so before FH came out suggested Lorgar was weak. In fact in A Thousand Sons he actually came across as quite soulful and well liked by his brothers, even if his legion was not.

Erebus, all the heresy novels i've read have made one thing clear...he's douchebag.

 Formosa wrote:
hmm hard one, Lorgar had a hand in it, but i feel the blame lies with Typhon, Kor phaeron and Erebus, had these 3 not turned then perhaps lorgar would have not turned, imagine an imperium with its soul guarded by the word bearers

Typhon, Kor Phaeron and Erebus were already followers of the old ways, when the Emperor arrived they had to put their true beliefs on the back burner. If they had fully embraced the Emperor and the Imperial Truth then Lorgar, his Word Bearers and the Death Guard might have been saved. These three were the architects of the Heresy, chiefly Erebus and Kor Phaeron.

How the Emperor handled the nature of Chaos seems to me to be a big cause of the heresy, if he had been open about the true nature of the warp and its denizens then the Primarchs and their Legions would have possibly been aware and wary of what threat it poses. They were told of certain risks, like possession, but were kept in the dark. Why? Possibly to hide the truth of the Primarchs and the pacts the Emperor reneged on. Kor Phaeron, Erebus and Typhon should never have become Space Marines, well, half Marines in Kor Phaerons case.

Perhaps if the Emperor didn't attempt to enforce the Imperial truth on the worlds he conquered and allowed worship of the old ways, so long as he was recognised as their ruler, the Chaos Gods hands might not have been forced to take action.

I don't believe there is a single person you can blame, but the main culprits would be Horus, Lorgar and the Emperor.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

Mcfloonoo wrote:
Erebus. I havent read the whole heresy series, but man I hope that ass hole dies.

Couldn't agree more, every time he's in the presence of a loyalist marine/Primarch I keep hoping they'll tear his head off.

If you wish to find out his status in 40k, click the spoiler.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
hmm hard one, Lorgar had a hand in it, but i feel the blame lies with Typhon, Kor phaeron and Erebus, had these 3 not turned then perhaps lorgar would have not turned, imagine an imperium with its soul guarded by the word bearers

Lorgar is a weakling, an emotional fanatic. It really wasn't a surprise to me to learn that the Word Bearers were at the root of the Heresy sprouting.

Interesting that it didn't surprise you seeing as Lorgar's weak character wasn't really explored until "The First Herectic, which was book 14 in the series. When it was revealed in book 2 that Erebus, at the behest of Lorgar, had been sent to turn Horus to Chaos. Nothing in the 20 years or so before FH came out suggested Lorgar was weak. In fact in A Thousand Sons he actually came across as quite soulful and well liked by his brothers, even if his legion was not.

I don't believe this is entirely true, as far back as the Index Astartes articles we know that Lorgar sought out new Gods to worship after he was reprimanded by the Emperor. This doesn't strike me as a strong character. So, maybe the Emperor was heavy handed and should have warned Lorgar sooner rather than later of his feelings in regards to his Legions acts of worship and conversion, but Lorgar could have accepted the Emperors word and got on as he was asked to. He didn't have to start worshiping the Chaos Gods.

Matt Ward.

I believe the Emperor is the ultimate pawn of Chaos:
Lets take over the world and slaughter millions
Lets make some super human beings to conquer all humanity
Lets make a deal to create the Primachs with chaos forces
Lets give each of them a twisted personality

Now for someone so clever how did he not see this coming.

we have a guy sat on the golden throne being worshiped as a god (good/Evil i'll let you judge) and he demands ultimate loyalty slaughtering billions daily to feed him (Khrone?)
He didn't save humanity he has doomed it but without humans can chaos survive
So my theory is this was all the emperors plan from the start in order to create strife

 StarTrotter wrote:
I'd have to say the Emperor made the biggest mess. Messed up with a certain World Eater primarch, tried to ban arguably the second greatest psyker ever from using his powers, let his liking for Horus blind him, just crushed Lorgar's planet ruthlessly not thinking of possible implications, let several legions run around wildly just messing around, etc. Also, if the rumors that he got the ability to make the primarchs by dabbling with the chaos gods is correct, that just pokes even more holes in it all. The dude failed dad parenting 101. Oh, and he forgot to actually warn about the warp and the badness of it.

Discounting the Emperor, I'd argue the Eldar (cabal) are also quite guilty of the disaster. They really did many a thing wrong and honestly it really might come to bite them in the future. I wouldn't really put Lorgar as the root of the blame, Typhon, Kor Phaeron, and Erebus are, in my opinion, much more at fault as their corruption was what really set it off.

I guess you could also say that the Ruinous Powers were largely at fault

Part of your first statement isn't true, at least, isn't true on the Warp, or at least not completely true. The first book of the Horus Heresy says even guys down the totem pole know about the warp, know it can corrupt people, that it can manifest all over, and that some places are more attuned to it, etc.

The difference is, and it is important to note that it is not really wrong, they believed that the Warp was another plane and that it's denizens were just creatures that weren't understood and not 'demons'.

That official line, which they knew of and knew why they needed Gellar fields, that psykers could be corrupted by it, etc is not wrong from a certain point of view.

The Warp IS another plane and it's denizens ARE creatures that we do not fully understand. Demon/not demon is predicated only on the fact that demon implies you cannot fathom it or that it is only evil. Alien means there is a rhyme or reason to it, and there is (we just don't always see it).

Pre-heresy still had demons boarding ships, people fighting them when the Gellar shields were breached, folks becoming monstrous/mutated before the eyes of both Marines and the army, etc etc etc. Pre-heresy they just chalked it all up to non religious reasons. Which isn't wrong, per say.

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:

His total lack of understanding of emotions:
-The handling of the Word Bearers. He put the ideology of his vision ahead of the character of Lorgar. Rather than compromising or having an open dialogue, he publicly shamed his most fragile son. This shows an absolute lack of understanding of emotional responses.
-The acceptance of Curze and Angron as generals of his armies. It doesn't make any sense given what we're told about the Emperor, that he couldn't tell these two were train wrecks. He could have folded their legions into the existing forces and not have risked the obvious consequences of their behavior.
-There are also probably other examples, such as with Perturabo, who felt unrecognized or under appreciated, or Mortarion, who was kind of a broody jerk and probably needed a hug.

He also made it very easy for the Mechanicum to rebel when he telepathically forced the Fabricator General to be his little nancy and string him along for his own purposes.

What does he do after fething with the Fabricator General? Does he perhaps coldly but pragmatically kill him? Maybe he telepathically erases the memories of the Emperor being a jerk to him.

Of course not. He just leaves this resentful little gak to continue being resentful and distrusting of the Emperor, directly leading to half of Mars rebelling.

Also, some of it is bad writing. We know that it was Kor Phaeron who first manipulated Lorgar, and was always secretly loyal to Chaos.

Only Lorgar, with Kor Phaeron by his side, was actually found by the Emperor and Magnus. The two most powerful psykers in the galaxy. Yet they didn't get a bad feeling about this guy? Sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jakejackjake wrote:

It's really the Lorgar Heresy. It just would have taken longer without Horus. Lorgar would have had to fully come into his own before he gained enough respect, but by the time of say "Aurelian" he is more powerful than every traitor Primarch. He beats the piss out of Fulgrim, who is possessed by a demon and even more powerful, he's developed use of his psychic power, and basically has become a badass almost unequaled. If he kept things under wrap until this point his innate ability to inspire coupled with the respect he would have slowly gained for his increased confidence an strength most likely would have resulted in a Heresy anyway

Magnus is still more powerful than Lorgar is.

The Emperor, first and foremost. If he wasn't deliberately trying to start a civil war for some reason (maybe he thought that without an enemy the Imperium would just break apart again, and didn't consider the Orks or Eldar enough of a threat?) then he clearly had no idea how people thought if he couldn't read their minds.

Alpharius has to shoulder some blame as well, since there was no reason for him to trust the visions that an alien race that the Imperium was at war with showed him. He probably could have pulled off a few assassinations even if he had still sided or pretended to side with the traitors.

Having said that, I think a lot of this is hindsight is 20/20.

Did the Emporer do it right? No, not at all (and in some respects I view him as a villain).

Do his actions absolve his 'sons' from their choices? No, not at all.

Even if he'd chosen everything the other way, it would still have happened if only because GW wants the situation the 'galaxy' is currently in. So, regardless of how anyone chose, something would have happened to cause a galactic civil war that caused 40k to come about.

30k is a tale of petulant teenage boys. The few 'adults' are generally not well liked by a lot of players or aren't hugely popular because they aren't emotionally spoilt children at the head of world destroying armies. Can't have 30k/40k without pointless over the top melodrama.

The Chaos Gods, mostly, in the end.

Though don't let you think that absolves the, as Maniac_nmt puts it, "petulant teenage boys" that are most of hte primarchs. Or the obstinance of the Emperor who is a bit of a bad parent.

The Emperor, obviously, had a very big hand in it due to his poor parenting (unless we theorise the emperor WANTED the heresy to happen for some reason). However without the powers of chaos there would have been no heresy. Even if the emperor had been more competent in his parenting chaos would have found a way to twist some of the primarchs against the emperor (see the Dornian Heresy alternate reality where the roles of the legions are reversed).

While the Emperor was definitely a bad parent in the short time he had access to the primarchs, the Chaos Gods whisked away the primarchs as infants, so he couldn't really raise them, he could only interact with them as a parent interacting with teens he barely knows.

In the end, that was very likely the trigger for the Horus Heresy.

 Melissia wrote:
The Chaos Gods, mostly, in the end.

Though don't let you think that absolves the, as Maniac_nmt puts it, "petulant teenage boys" that are most of hte primarchs. Or the obstinance of the Emperor who is a bit of a bad parent.

Wow. All this time, and I only just learn that you know how to use understatement!

 Melissia wrote:
While the Emperor was definitely a bad parent in the short time he had access to the primarchs, the Chaos Gods whisked away the primarchs as infants, so he couldn't really raise them, he could only interact with them as a parent interacting with teens he barely knows.

In the end, that was very likely the trigger for the Horus Heresy.

I think that the Emperor's problem mainly was that, as Lorgar states it, "He is incapable of sharing the truth with others" (not his exact words, but pretty much along those lines). Him telling the Primarchs about the existance of Chaos and its dangers would certainly have prevented a lot of nasty stuff, and he should also have immediately told Lorgar about how he shouldn't be worshipped, instead of doing so after bombing a city, and humiliating an entire Legion.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Wow. All this time, and I only just learn that you know how to use understatement!

Meh. The Emperor is a bad parent by most standards, but compared the disgusting and abusive parenting habits of ultraconservative homeschoolers like Michael and Debi Pearl (whom do things like advocate beating children with a quarter inch plumbing supply line until they no longer have the energy to scream, just for the sake of breaking the child's will), he's the Saint of Parenthood.

I think I'm rather glad that I have no idea who those are.

Probably. It's very depressing.

You guys haven't taken things back to their ultimate origin.

We're to blame for being so goshdarn angry, lustful, conniving, and full of despair.

It's really....
GW'S BUDGET GUY! (Or Tzeentch when I think about it)
When warhammer was originally made they didn't have enough money to make anything besides space marines because of Tzeentch's evily dark powers. So they invented the heresy. Thus Tzeentch was born and had the power to make himself!

The Emperor. For all his wisdom, he thought he could dishonour a deal made with the Ruinious Powers. They're sorta like the Lannisters, or the Iron Bank. They get their due.

 Melissia wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Wow. All this time, and I only just learn that you know how to use understatement!

Meh. The Emperor is a bad parent by most standards, but compared the disgusting and abusive parenting habits of ultraconservative homeschoolers like Michael and Debi Pearl (whom do things like advocate beating children with a quarter inch plumbing supply line until they no longer have the energy to scream, just for the sake of breaking the child's will), he's the Saint of Parenthood.

The Emperor's negligence led to the deaths of billions, and despite knowing that his son, Angron, was going to die from the Nails eventually, instead of trying to cure him he said "Just have him kill my enemies until he goes insane and dies".

He's far worse.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The Emperor's negligence

Having his children stolen from him by the Chaos Gods is not negligence.

The Emperor never had a chance to raise his children to begin with.

He reneged on his deal, so they took his kids. It's his fault.

 Melissia wrote:
Having his children stolen from him by the Chaos Gods is not negligence.

The Emperor never had a chance to raise his children to begin with.

While it is always amusing to see you attack the barest minimum of someone else's posts (Because you have no answer for the rest), I feel it is important that you take mine as a whole.

Anyway, even your rebuttal is frankly irrelevant. Having them stolen from him is not negligence, no.

Allowing Angron to fester and continually grow insane until he either dies or rebels however is.

 Melissia wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The Emperor's negligence

Having his children stolen from him by the Chaos Gods is not negligence.

The Emperor never had a chance to raise his children to begin with.

QFT.
on angron: the nails couldn't be removed, it would be taking a CHUNK out of angrons brain. as to putting him down, would you kill your own child?
if yes, please go to asylum.
also, the emperor had planned to raise the primarchs himself, and even had a number of suites constructed for them, finally, when did he make a deal with chaos? I have never read that.

It is heavily implied he made a deal with chaos to make the primarchs a thing.

In terms of Angron, it still doesn't make him any better of a father. Basically all the Emperor does with Angron is warp him up as his "family" is slaughtered him not able to die alongside them and then just teleports him over to the World Eater ship to get things sorted out there. Then he gets sent far away to just keep on butchering things. Based on how he treats them, I doubt him raising them would even entirely be a good thing. He seemed rather gakky with it and it is more like a it using tools rather than a father and child.

 the shrouded lord wrote:
finally, when did he make a deal with chaos? I have never read that.

In The First Heretic we see where the Primarchs were developed. The laboratory was protected by the most powerful Gellar Field ever witnessed. I think we can understand why.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 the shrouded lord wrote:
finally, when did he make a deal with chaos? I have never read that.

In The First Heretic we see where the Primarchs were developed. The laboratory was protected by the most powerful Gellar Field ever witnessed. I think we can understand why.

Geller fields are to contain warp energy,
So either,
Incase terra was invaded by warp,
Or... To keep it in..

And doesn't Primarch of the White Scars go on about the warp is in their blood?

That's because they're psykers. Psykers have "the warp in their blood", as it were.

 the shrouded lord wrote:
Geller fields are to contain warp energy,

Nah, they shut out the warp entirely and enforce a zone of "Real-Space" unless/until they fail. Never heard of them being used to keep warp-energy inside the field.

Of course I can't find it, but I recall the emperor using the phrase "Like a son" in regards to possibly Horus, or a different primarch.

They are not his children. They are his creations

 the shrouded lord wrote:

QFT.
on angron: the nails couldn't be removed, it would be taking a CHUNK out of angrons brain. as to putting him down, would you kill your own child?
if yes, please go to asylum.
also, the emperor had planned to raise the primarchs himself, and even had a number of suites constructed for them, finally, when did he make a deal with chaos? I have never read that.

If my child was gradually suffering and going insane from a metal parasite in his brain that had absolutely no hope of being removed? If given the choice between watching him suffer and die slowly from his mental degradation, as he continues to cause others to suffer because he fundamentally can't help doing so? Yes. Every time, and you'd have to be morally repugnant to not do so.

The Emperor went about handling Angron in the worst possible way.

Well... a person's biological children are also their "creations", since their genetic material is required for the development of said children.

That's not really saying a lot, to suggest they are his creations but not his children.

It would be more-accurate to say that they are not his children but his clones. He may have been expecting them to be more like him. Or perhaps he was amazed to learn that they weren't, and had foreseen them as such? As we see later, denied his foresight, the Emperor became uncertain.

The Eldar. Ask me how. I dare you.

 rednecroncryptek wrote:
The Eldar. Ask me how. I dare you.

...
...
...

how

Chaos, Obvoisly.

I'm all about the heretic Lorgar as being a key figure in it.

It was a sad story to read about the heros falling from grace, and killing brother marines.

We are to blame for accepting poor writing and terrible ideas.

Rick Priestly.

The Emperor is to blame for his irresponsible parenting.
-> Hey, I just lost my 20 sons to the warp.

He is also to blame for not realizing what a poor parent he is, after finding his sons.
-> Hey, I put Angron and Dorn in the same room, and I do not realize one of them is a complete whack job, and still give him an army of super soldiers.

Then the grand architect is Erebus, just playing on those mistakes.

The great question stays : how can you be the Emperor and not realize you made THAT MANY mistakes : Lorgar? Cruze? Angron? Sending one's own son to exterminate his brother?

The emperor bred legions of space marines, that are ultimate, obedient and conditionned killing machines, but yet gave command of those guys to erratic and crazed primarchs - some very obviously so.

In the end, it is a wonder the great crusade could go all that way before the heresy. So many things could have gone wrong much earlier.

Just saying, it is called the HORUS Heresy. Maybe him and the chaos gods?

 Seb wrote:
The Emperor is to blame for his irresponsible parenting.
-> Hey, I just lost my 20 sons to the warp.

He is also to blame for not realizing what a poor parent he is, after finding his sons.
-> Hey, I put Angron and Dorn in the same room, and I do not realize one of them is a complete whack job, and still give him an army of super soldiers.

Then the grand architect is Erebus, just playing on those mistakes.

The great question stays : how can you be the Emperor and not realize you made THAT MANY mistakes : Lorgar? Cruze? Angron? Sending one's own son to exterminate his brother?

The emperor bred legions of space marines, that are ultimate, obedient and conditionned killing machines, but yet gave command of those guys to erratic and crazed primarchs - some very obviously so.

In the end, it is a wonder the great crusade could go all that way before the heresy. So many things could have gone wrong much earlier.

Look at the Emporer himself, it isn't that surprising that he would make erratic decisions. He sure says he isn't for deification, yet grants support to supplicants during early stages (i.e. before the heresy actually kicks off for 'real'), he also is guilty of setting up a form of personality cult centered around himself and the Primarchs. He sets his sons up as the 'kings of the castle' such that everyone bows to them, kneels before them, and otherwise behaves in more of a servile and less of a military way around both them and himself.

The Primarchs are dictators, as is the Emporer, who's word is law and all must bow to his every whim. Effectively the Emporer seldom displays that he is constrained by his own laws.

Meaning in the end he is still very fallible, and to err is human.

The Horus Heresy would happen no matter what. At some point, when trying to build an empire that big, someone is going to rebel. Even the Pax Romana was a state of almost perpetual warfare along the borders of the Roman Empire, and there were plenty of internal squabbles as well.

 the shrouded lord wrote:

 rednecroncryptek wrote:
The Eldar. Ask me how. I dare you.

...
...
...

how

Well it was the Eldar who ruled the galaxy correct? It was their gluttony and greed and relentless indulgences that triggered their fall AND THE BIRTH OF SLAANESH. Thus 3 gods became four. This then let the rampant warp storms surrounding terra to abate and therefore allowing the Emperor to begin his Great Crusade. And allowed the gods to steal and corrupt the Primarchs. (The First Heretic displays how Lorgar was held and corrupted in the warp before falling to his homeworld). Thus it was the Eldar who inadvertently let the Imperium develop. And without Slaanesh, the Emperors children would have remained loyalist. The galaxy is still butthurt over the fact that Eldar fell, coz now everyone is screwed.

Mcfloonoo wrote:
Erebus. I havent read the whole heresy series, but man I hope that ass hole dies.

Erebus's fate...If you MUST know

We knew Erebus would live long before the Heresy started. He's one of the leaders of the Word Bearers in the "Present" 40th Millenium for crying out loud (and has been so ever since he first existed as a character if I recalled correctly)

As more and more novels continue to be released, I think my opinion for who is most to blame has shifted to the Emperor.

In this order:

Erebus ('cause everything leads back to him (basically))
Lorgar (For listening to Erebus)
Horus
Emperor


Alternativley, the emperor could be a few steps higher for not working on his kids psychological issues/being to sold on the idea of a flawless Horus to listen to Magnus.

1. The Chaos Gods (obviously)
2. Erebus and Kor Phaeron (the original heretics who orchestrated the whole thing)
3. The Emperor (Not directly responsible, but in hindsight his decisions allowed the Heresy to take place)
4. Horus (Horus' charisma and military genius made the Heresy as large and effective as it was)

If you could see 1000 ways for a single event to turn out differently you would choose the best one. Now if you could see 1000 events and 1000 ways for each to turn out you would choose a way for each event to turn out Wether bad or good that was the best ending for you when all is said and finished.

Yes the emperor could of stopped individual events or "set someone up for success" but changing that 1 event you would like the best result from does not give you the best ending at the end of 1000 events.

Now keep in mind the emperor was influencing billions and billions of events at any given moment so that everyone did things a certain way to reach the point that WH40K is at now...
Sorry your favorite primarch was treated like dirt but guess what humanity is still alive and kicking.

So no the emperor did not screw up.

I would tell you there's no such thing as chaos and the warp and promote a Psychopath killer over a saint if that meant 10 years from now you would be in just the right place at just the right time to be able to hit the button that launches the nuke to wipe out the Tyranid hive fleet that would eventually destroy the earth.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
So between your personal feelings and not breaking faith with the emperor.... the choice you offer is no choice at all

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
As more and more novels continue to be released, I think my opinion for who is most to blame has shifted to the Emperor.

Cast "resurrection " spell on thread.

 FeindusMaximus wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
As more and more novels continue to be released, I think my opinion for who is most to blame has shifted to the Emperor.

Cast "resurrection " spell on thread.

yeah a 2 year old necro nice work

Yes, and thanks for contributing btw

wows why the necro people wanna here the emprah or the word budies, depending on your bias again?

The thing is, the Emperor had been round for thousands of years. Did he never have a wife, or any human offspring? Anyway, I digress, the hubris of the whole transhuman project, as written in the BL books seems to me to play a large part in who to apportion blame ror the Heresy.

If it makes you feel better, Erebus gets the crud kicked out of him in a couple of recent heresy books. Betrayer is very satisfying.

the question of the Emperor's human sons..... well, look up "sensei" in a 40k context. Not been in the background for a long time, but nor was ollianus pious.

Also, one other faction that bears some blame - apparently (path of heaven) the paternova -- leader of the navigator dynasties - knew about the imperial webway project, and could see what that would inevitably mean for his rich, despised mutant freaks in an imperium which no longer needed them....

Emperor was to blame from the fact he tried to do too much too fast.

He did not prepare properly or let his sons know what was going on knowing them fully. Magnus if told from the start would of helped and not broke the wall protecting from the warp.

Angron if he was allowed to save his family or left to die would not of been a problem both things he wanted for himself.

If he did not give the rains to the crusade to horus who shared his goal in taking more for his glory.

If he spoke to Lorgar rather then donkey punching him then ridding His ass around like a pony probly would of ended better.

If tauth about the demon gods to start the primarchs would of supported their father better. They each share a trait of him and altho they have the bodies of an adult and the strength of a demigod they where fragile and needed training and to be nutured.

The emperor was corrupted by his own goals and his short comings fell in on themselves. If he knew his sons well enough and knew they needed love and support to prepare for what was to come, he would not have failed. The chaos gods knew his sons better then him which is why he failed.

Yes there is a few account of him being a father are helpful but far more of him expecting to much faith with no givin cause.

Like him talking to horus under the stars or with fulgrim having pity and allowing him to carry his symbol. Both where caring gestures, but when he seen fulgrim becoming obsessed with perfection to make up for this he could of helped him from falling.

Or pertrubo.. Forget how to spell his name rather then letting him and the primarch of IF forget his name aswell. Have a rival with each other they needed to be allowed to see how both where needed a lord of taking what can not be taken. A fortress so protected that he could trust no other to keep his kingdom safe. Instead again pitting them against each other. He created hate and hate spawns many demons.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Who do you consider to be most at fault when it comes to laying blame for the Horus Heresy? Who contributed most? This is a broad topic, as there is plenty of blame to go around, and there are still plenty of Horus Heresy novels being released. I find myself absolutely loathing Erebus - he's sneaky, conniving, and incredibly evil.

While everybody screwed up at one point or another in the days leading up to the Heresy (including the Emperor), the Horus Heresy is misnamed. It should be the "Erebus Heresy", since he was the main one who got the treason ball rolling. When it comes to the Imperial VIP side of Chaos mischief, Erebus was the "beachhead" (for want of a better term) for Chaos to spread their vile influence amongst the Primarchs (who were both the Imperium's pointmen and the Imperium's major weak point).

Isn't it OBVIOUS who to blame? Who planned the whole thing, sowed the seed of Heresy amongst the Primarchs and convinced Magnus to make the Emperor so mad he missed his son's point? Do not ask who lurks in the shadows, for it is I...Tzeentch.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Who do you consider to be most at fault when it comes to laying blame for the Horus Heresy? Who contributed most? This is a broad topic, as there is plenty of blame to go around, and there are still plenty of Horus Heresy novels being released. I find myself absolutely loathing Erebus - he's sneaky, conniving, and incredibly evil.

While everybody screwed up at one point or another in the days leading up to the Heresy (including the Emperor), the Horus Heresy is misnamed. It should be the "Erebus Heresy", since he was the main one who got the treason ball rolling. When it comes to the Imperial VIP side of Chaos mischief, Erebus was the "beachhead" (for want of a better term) for Chaos to spread their vile influence amongst the Primarchs (who were both the Imperium's pointmen and the Imperium's major weak point).

Erebus started it, but Horus got it to another level that Erebus wouldn't able to achieve.

I agree, Horus had the means, ambition, and opportunities to take the Heresy to a level Erebus never could have.

I blame the chaos gods for the horus heresy.

I blame the Emperor. It bothers me how someone who is meant to be so smart is so stupid.

The maniac who had an army of techno barbarians but wanted more and refused to listen to the cabal

locarno24 wrote:
If it makes you feel better, Erebus gets the crud kicked out of him in a couple of recent heresy books. Betrayer is very satisfying.

Is that where
I wasn't quite sure of the meaning of that scene. I got that it showed that Horus was over Erebus and his "orders" but why show it that way? Why not just kill him?
Seemed like there was something deeper I was missing

I think Erebus still has a big part to play, and killing him outright closes a lot of doors in the story. Having him brutalized was a gift to the readers, haha.

Tzeentch and his puppets, just as planned

Retrogamer0001 wrote:I think Erebus still has a big part to play, and killing him outright closes a lot of doors in the story. Having him brutalized was a gift to the readers, haha.

JustALittleOrkish wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
If it makes you feel better, Erebus gets the crud kicked out of him in a couple of recent heresy books. Betrayer is very satisfying.

Is that where

Spoiler:

Horus rips off Erebus' face?

I wasn't quite sure of the meaning of that scene. I got that it showed that Horus was over Erebus and his "orders" but why show it that way? Why not just kill him?
Seemed like there was something deeper I was missing

Well, there's also the fact that in current 40k fluff Erebus survives the Heresy and commands the largest of the Word Bearer's Hosts in 41M.
Kinda hard to do that when you're dead.

 Draco wrote:
Tzeentch and his puppets, just as planned

Finally someone agrees with me!

I think it's a mixture of E-money and Erebus.

Big E is at fault for making all the primarchs jealous and paranoid of each other and he's also basically space Hitler. He also showed favourites in his sons and was a to some of them like Angron, Magnus and to an extent, Lorgar.

Erebus was the one who was corrupted by Chaos and used Emps's mistakes to plan out the heresy.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Who do you consider to be most at fault when it comes to laying blame for the Horus Heresy? Who contributed most? This is a broad topic, as there is plenty of blame to go around, and there are still plenty of Horus Heresy novels being released. I find myself absolutely loathing Erebus - he's sneaky, conniving, and incredibly evil.

While everybody screwed up at one point or another in the days leading up to the Heresy (including the Emperor), the Horus Heresy is misnamed. It should be the "Erebus Heresy", since he was the main one who got the treason ball rolling. When it comes to the Imperial VIP side of Chaos mischief, Erebus was the "beachhead" (for want of a better term) for Chaos to spread their vile influence amongst the Primarchs (who were both the Imperium's pointmen and the Imperium's major weak point).

Well I like that misnaming. It's good IN UNIVERSE name. After all for Imperium at large Erebus's role wasn't known. Wonder if any loyals ever found out? Horus however...He's one known pretty much everywhere so when he's the poster boy of the heresy so to speak...No wonder heresy got named Horus Heresy.

tneva82 wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Who do you consider to be most at fault when it comes to laying blame for the Horus Heresy? Who contributed most? This is a broad topic, as there is plenty of blame to go around, and there are still plenty of Horus Heresy novels being released. I find myself absolutely loathing Erebus - he's sneaky, conniving, and incredibly evil.

While everybody screwed up at one point or another in the days leading up to the Heresy (including the Emperor), the Horus Heresy is misnamed. It should be the "Erebus Heresy", since he was the main one who got the treason ball rolling. When it comes to the Imperial VIP side of Chaos mischief, Erebus was the "beachhead" (for want of a better term) for Chaos to spread their vile influence amongst the Primarchs (who were both the Imperium's pointmen and the Imperium's major weak point).

Well I like that misnaming. It's good IN UNIVERSE name. After all for Imperium at large Erebus's role wasn't known. Wonder if any loyals ever found out? Horus however...He's one known pretty much everywhere so when he's the poster boy of the heresy so to speak...No wonder heresy got named Horus Heresy.

I think Erebus is bigged up a bit too much really, even if he wasnt there it would just have been one of the others being the first to drop.

The Emperor is to blame. It's spelled out, as only Graham McNeil can, that he arranged for the Horus Heresy so that humanity could survive through the sacrifice of himself and his progeny. The Primarchs were created through collusion with the Chaos Gods in a kind of a gamble on both sides, the Emperor hoping that they could build up the Imperium enough to survive the storm.

...hmm... generally we prefer it if 2 year old threads aren't dug up like this.

But we'll leave it this time, please bear it in mind for the future.

Ta.

Nomeny wrote:
The Emperor is to blame. It's spelled out, as only Graham McNeil can, that he arranged for the Horus Heresy so that humanity could survive through the sacrifice of himself and his progeny. The Primarchs were created through collusion with the Chaos Gods in a kind of a gamble on both sides, the Emperor hoping that they could build up the Imperium enough to survive the storm.

Well...actually it was a Chaos vision shown to Horus by the Chaos gods who totally told him about that time that E-Money borrowed some power from them to make something, sometime, somewhere....because the Chaos Gods are totally trustworthy and why would they lie to Horus?

Yeah yeah I know rocket ship, perpetual, -Plot-™, etc etc etc.... I know GW is going to do what they do best, take a good idea and run it way past its best before date and flog it like a dead horse when it should of been taken behind the barn like old yeller and put out of its misery a while ago.

The whole Horus Heresy is just dragging on way to long. There is WAY to much -Plot-™. I lost interest a while back, wake me up when we get to Terra.

They need to end the heresy and move onto the scouring.... that's where things can get really interesting. Formation of the inquisition and the Grey Knights. The rich and powerful playing their games while squishing the normal folk under there heels in a bid to gain whatever scrap of power they can. The really powerful jockeying to become High Lords of Terra. The dismantling of the Legions into Chapters. Robute trying to get anyone and everyone to read his book. The rise of the Adeptus Ministorum. So much more potential there, so many hooks for bolter porn, to power struggles played by the powerful to a Romeo and Juilet story between two Navigators on the opposite side of the heresy

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
I think the Heresy and the manner in which it ultimately unfolded stems ultimately from the Emperor being a total sham. I personally can't decide if this is a product of poor writing or if we just haven't been shown enough about the Emperor's actions, but there are just so many mind bogglingly poor decisions being made by a being that we've been told: 1) watched humanity for thousands of years before acting; 2) is a super scientist whose ideology is one of reason; and, 3) is massively psychic. Two big ideas jump out at me in this regard:

His total lack of understanding of emotions:
-The handling of the Word Bearers. He put the ideology of his vision ahead of the character of Lorgar. Rather than compromising or having an open dialogue, he publicly shamed his most fragile son. This shows an absolute lack of understanding of emotional responses.
-The acceptance of Curze and Angron as generals of his armies. It doesn't make any sense given what we're told about the Emperor, that he couldn't tell these two were train wrecks. He could have folded their legions into the existing forces and not have risked the obvious consequences of their behavior.
-There are also probably other examples, such as with Perturabo, who felt unrecognized or under appreciated, or Mortarion, who was kind of a broody jerk and probably needed a hug.

His ironic inconsistent application of reason:
-Denying the primarchs and their legions knowledge about the warp and of chaos. This one is a doozy. What if Magnus had actually understood the nature of the Ruinous Powers? What if Fulgrim had known to be wary of chaos artifacts and demons? What if Lorgar had understood that the reason the emperor didn't want to be worshiped was that there actually were gods in the warp and that rationalism was the only way to overcome them? That he didn't share the information with them is embarrassing.
-We're told he designed the natures of the primarchs. It's arguable that his work was affected by their casting out into the universe by the gods. However we're still continually told that the primarchs manifest the spectrum of his character. If that is the case, his handling of Lorgar and Magnus become even more troubling. We're led to believe that he designed a psychic juggernaut and a zealot, but didn't follow up on his designs with proper instruction? That's not very reasonable.

Well written. It's funny that he keeps information about the warp secret from his sons. Breaks his own teachings.

Rak'Gol

The magnificent duo - Erebus and Kor Phaeron. Lorgar was just a tool, which those two wielded magnificently.

Also blame the Emperor, since he obviously made a ton of mistakes and was a horrible parent/leader. I hope that the "Master of Mankind" by ADB will shed some positive light on his decissions, because as of now, he's just a brain-dead moron.