Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Who is to blame for the Heresy?

GW. Pure and simple. Though I think the squats might have given them a hand. That's why they "disappeared".

No-one has said Horus yet? I need to read these books, because I'm really misinformed about this whole thing. For all I know, then, they named it the Horus Heresy for the alliteration shenanigans.

The Emperor is a great physic, scientist, fighter, leader etc.. but a poor father... and the fathered 20 sons no less!

Under current court of law the Emperor would have to take some blame. But Horus is over 18 when he commited the hersey, he is mature enough in the eyes of the court to take full responsibility for his actions. Even accounting the fact he has a poor upbringing, bad influencial brothers and worst friends from these brothers.

Erebus, and when I say "blame" what I really mean is "congratulate".

 The Shadow wrote:
No-one has said Horus yet? I need to read these books, because I'm really misinformed about this whole thing. For all I know, then, they named it the Horus Heresy for the alliteration shenanigans.

In the first heresy books we learn that hours is at heart, a good and honest man, all he wants is to please his father, yet repeately he is locked out. That, coupled with the decrees of the high lords, and the great crusade it'self, with the whispered advice of Erebus, drive him over the very edge.

The Emperor. If he hadn't he been such a dill weed to the Word Bearers, Erebus would have never fallen to Chaos and the whole Heresy wouldn't have happened.

 Kojiro wrote:
The Emperor. He did not adequately arm his sons for the task ahead of them, specifically in regards to the Warp, and he put far too much power in the hands of a single one of them.

Of course previously- before the current series- Horus is simply possessed in a moment of vulnerability rather than turning, which would defray much of the fault from the Emperor.

Emperor for sure. Magnus , Angron, and most importantly Lorgar only turn because of the emperor sucking at handling just about any situation

Everyone is at fault, which is kind of the point. The Horus Heresy reeks of Greek tragedy, just without the Deus Ex Machina at the end to make everything alright going forward.

It's like arguing over who was really to blame for the Trojan War. Lots of blame can be thrown around for that one, too, because the point is the combined weakness of men creates unecessary violence and complete, pointless tragedy and suffering.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
hmm hard one, Lorgar had a hand in it, but i feel the blame lies with Typhon, Kor phaeron and Erebus, had these 3 not turned then perhaps lorgar would have not turned, imagine an imperium with its soul guarded by the word bearers

Lorgar is a weakling, an emotional fanatic. It really wasn't a surprise to me to learn that the Word Bearers were at the root of the Heresy sprouting.

Lorgar becomes one of the surest stongest Primarch's. Sanguinis doubts his self worth a lot more

The Shadow wrote:No-one has said Horus yet?

Yeah, seriously, what?

It's the HORUS heresy. If Horus didn't exist, there wouldn't be the heresy, at least not in the way it played out. At every step of the series of events, things were critically determined by the actions of Horus. He was the one in charge, and the one who made things happen.

I wonder if some people think that gun violence is the result of our education system or our economy, rather than because people shoot each other...

 Ailaros wrote:

The Shadow wrote:No-one has said Horus yet?

Yeah, seriously, what?

It's the HORUS heresy. If Horus didn't exist, there wouldn't be the heresy, at least not in the way it played out. At every step of the series of events, things were critically determined by the actions of Horus. He was the one in charge, and the one who made things happen.

I wonder if some people think that gun violence is the result of our education system or our economy, rather than because people shoot each other...

It's really the Lorgar Heresy. It just would have taken longer without Horus. Lorgar would have had to fully come into his own before he gained enough respect, but by the time of say "Aurelian" he is more powerful than every traitor Primarch. He beats the piss out of Fulgrim, who is possessed by a demon and even more powerful, he's developed use of his psychic power, and basically has become a badass almost unequaled. If he kept things under wrap until this point his innate ability to inspire coupled with the respect he would have slowly gained for his increased confidence an strength most likely would have resulted in a Heresy anyway

 Ailaros wrote:

The Shadow wrote:No-one has said Horus yet?

Yeah, seriously, what?

It's the HORUS heresy. If Horus didn't exist, there wouldn't be the heresy, at least not in the way it played out. At every step of the series of events, things were critically determined by the actions of Horus. He was the one in charge, and the one who made things happen.

I wonder if some people think that gun violence is the result of our education system or our economy, rather than because people shoot each other...

If Horus hadn't existed then there'd have to have been a different primarch for the Luna Wolves, and I'm sure they would have bowed just as easily to Lorgar.
I think I read in a Darren Shan book (don't judge) that if you went back in time and killed Hitler before he came to lead the Nazis things would've turned out the same, just people would hate a different guy with a different face.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jakejackjake wrote:

It's really the Lorgar Heresy. It just would have taken longer without Horus. Lorgar would have had to fully come into his own before he gained enough respect, but by the time of say "Aurelian" he is more powerful than every traitor Primarch. He beats the piss out of Fulgrim, who is possessed by a demon and even more powerful, he's developed use of his psychic power, and basically has become a badass almost unequaled. If he kept things under wrap until this point his innate ability to inspire coupled with the respect he would have slowly gained for his increased confidence an strength most likely would have resulted in a Heresy anyway

I also agree with this guy, there would've been a Heresy regardless of Horus.
Just he made it all happen at the same time.
Legions would have broken off due to internal conflict, just as in the 41st Millenium Chapters turn Renegade.

 Ailaros wrote:

The Shadow wrote:No-one has said Horus yet?

Yeah, seriously, what?

It's the HORUS heresy. If Horus didn't exist, there wouldn't be the heresy, at least not in the way it played out. At every step of the series of events, things were critically determined by the actions of Horus. He was the one in charge, and the one who made things happen.

I wonder if some people think that gun violence is the result of our education system or our economy, rather than because people shoot each other...

Hint: It kinda is.

And no, Horus really didn't have much of a part in the Horus Heresy for actually starting it. The only special thing about Horus was that he had the connections to drag other primarchs with him after the Chaos Gods manipulated him into being their puppet. Erebus, Lorgar, and the rest of the Word Bearers are the actual cause of the Horus Heresy, and the whole thing would have never happened had the Emperor actually been a good father. Horus really isn't the person to blame when he was pretty much a puppet/weapon wielded by other parties and was manipulated over the course of a year (or more) into doing so.

BrotherOfBone wrote:If Horus hadn't existed then there'd have to have been a different primarch for the Luna Wolves

And if Horus hadn't have gone heretical, there wouldn't have been a Horus Heresy.

Wyzilla wrote:Hint: It kinda is.

Really...

I personally still subscribe to the theory that the emperor is nothing but a conduit of tzeentch. Chaos by nature is divided and fragmentary, wont to turn upon itself and more fatally, it consumes like a glutton. If left unopposed chaos would have completely and utterly destroyed mankind, thus deriving itself from what it needs to exist. No, the heresy makes perfect sense if you see it from the point that the empires inception at its very root was nothing but creating an adversary to unite against and to keep chaos in check. The empire has been stagnant and unchanging even with all the intrigue and corruption going on within it. Though the status quo is now frozen in place with neither side ever winning isn't that tzeentches most defining trait, he orchestrates events to create endless struggles, endless new schemes and endless amounts of new and exciting ways to conflict but in the end there is no end game. The entire imperium is an inexhaustible source of intrigue, betrayal and scheming minds but they will never amount to anything. Change without end, stagnation without actually beeing unchanging. It makes perfect sense. Its like tzeentch turned the entire friggen universe into his own personal tic tac toe game and hes utterly content to play even though he knows he can never beat himself.

 Ailaros wrote:

BrotherOfBone wrote:If Horus hadn't existed then there'd have to have been a different primarch for the Luna Wolves

And if Horus hadn't have gone heretical, there wouldn't have been a Horus Heresy.

The facts remains that Horus didn't start the Heresy - the Word Bearers truly did.

And if Horus hadn't have gotten involved, it would have been the Word Bearer Heresy.

I mean, what people are essentially arguing here is that the Armenian Genocide wasn't perpetrated by the Turks because lots of people were fighting World War I at the time.

 Ailaros wrote:
And if Horus hadn't have gotten involved, it would have been the Word Bearer Heresy.

I mean, what people are essentially arguing here is that the Armenian Genocide wasn't perpetrated by the Turks because lots of people were fighting World War I at the time.

Horus was simply a means to an end - he had the power, influence, and ability to corrupt and fashion a force capable of attacking the Emperor and the Loyalist forces. The Word Bearers couldn't accomplish those things alone.

The Emperor for being an inhuman Richard, all of this could have been averted, if he had acted like a human being.

 Ailaros wrote:
And if Horus hadn't have gotten involved, it would have been the Word Bearer Heresy.

I mean, what people are essentially arguing here is that the Armenian Genocide wasn't perpetrated by the Turks because lots of people were fighting World War I at the time.

Actually no it's nothing like that. No one is saying that Horus didn't perpetrate that Horus Heresy. We are saying he isn't solely or mainly responsible for starting it. A lot of work went in to making him fall and a lot could have been done to solve the problem before it really became one

You have a very simplified way of looking at things which doesn't line up with 40k or reality.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
hmm hard one, Lorgar had a hand in it, but i feel the blame lies with Typhon, Kor phaeron and Erebus, had these 3 not turned then perhaps lorgar would have not turned, imagine an imperium with its soul guarded by the word bearers

Lorgar is a weakling, an emotional fanatic. It really wasn't a surprise to me to learn that the Word Bearers were at the root of the Heresy sprouting.

Interesting that it didn't surprise you seeing as Lorgar's weak character wasn't really explored until "The First Herectic, which was book 14 in the series. When it was revealed in book 2 that Erebus, at the behest of Lorgar, had been sent to turn Horus to Chaos. Nothing in the 20 years or so before FH came out suggested Lorgar was weak. In fact in A Thousand Sons he actually came across as quite soulful and well liked by his brothers, even if his legion was not.

Erebus, all the heresy novels i've read have made one thing clear...he's douchebag.

 Formosa wrote:
hmm hard one, Lorgar had a hand in it, but i feel the blame lies with Typhon, Kor phaeron and Erebus, had these 3 not turned then perhaps lorgar would have not turned, imagine an imperium with its soul guarded by the word bearers

Typhon, Kor Phaeron and Erebus were already followers of the old ways, when the Emperor arrived they had to put their true beliefs on the back burner. If they had fully embraced the Emperor and the Imperial Truth then Lorgar, his Word Bearers and the Death Guard might have been saved. These three were the architects of the Heresy, chiefly Erebus and Kor Phaeron.

How the Emperor handled the nature of Chaos seems to me to be a big cause of the heresy, if he had been open about the true nature of the warp and its denizens then the Primarchs and their Legions would have possibly been aware and wary of what threat it poses. They were told of certain risks, like possession, but were kept in the dark. Why? Possibly to hide the truth of the Primarchs and the pacts the Emperor reneged on. Kor Phaeron, Erebus and Typhon should never have become Space Marines, well, half Marines in Kor Phaerons case.

Perhaps if the Emperor didn't attempt to enforce the Imperial truth on the worlds he conquered and allowed worship of the old ways, so long as he was recognised as their ruler, the Chaos Gods hands might not have been forced to take action.

I don't believe there is a single person you can blame, but the main culprits would be Horus, Lorgar and the Emperor.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

Mcfloonoo wrote:
Erebus. I havent read the whole heresy series, but man I hope that ass hole dies.

Couldn't agree more, every time he's in the presence of a loyalist marine/Primarch I keep hoping they'll tear his head off.

If you wish to find out his status in 40k, click the spoiler.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
hmm hard one, Lorgar had a hand in it, but i feel the blame lies with Typhon, Kor phaeron and Erebus, had these 3 not turned then perhaps lorgar would have not turned, imagine an imperium with its soul guarded by the word bearers

Lorgar is a weakling, an emotional fanatic. It really wasn't a surprise to me to learn that the Word Bearers were at the root of the Heresy sprouting.

Interesting that it didn't surprise you seeing as Lorgar's weak character wasn't really explored until "The First Herectic, which was book 14 in the series. When it was revealed in book 2 that Erebus, at the behest of Lorgar, had been sent to turn Horus to Chaos. Nothing in the 20 years or so before FH came out suggested Lorgar was weak. In fact in A Thousand Sons he actually came across as quite soulful and well liked by his brothers, even if his legion was not.

I don't believe this is entirely true, as far back as the Index Astartes articles we know that Lorgar sought out new Gods to worship after he was reprimanded by the Emperor. This doesn't strike me as a strong character. So, maybe the Emperor was heavy handed and should have warned Lorgar sooner rather than later of his feelings in regards to his Legions acts of worship and conversion, but Lorgar could have accepted the Emperors word and got on as he was asked to. He didn't have to start worshiping the Chaos Gods.

Matt Ward.

I believe the Emperor is the ultimate pawn of Chaos:
Lets take over the world and slaughter millions
Lets make some super human beings to conquer all humanity
Lets make a deal to create the Primachs with chaos forces
Lets give each of them a twisted personality

Now for someone so clever how did he not see this coming.

we have a guy sat on the golden throne being worshiped as a god (good/Evil i'll let you judge) and he demands ultimate loyalty slaughtering billions daily to feed him (Khrone?)
He didn't save humanity he has doomed it but without humans can chaos survive
So my theory is this was all the emperors plan from the start in order to create strife

 StarTrotter wrote:
I'd have to say the Emperor made the biggest mess. Messed up with a certain World Eater primarch, tried to ban arguably the second greatest psyker ever from using his powers, let his liking for Horus blind him, just crushed Lorgar's planet ruthlessly not thinking of possible implications, let several legions run around wildly just messing around, etc. Also, if the rumors that he got the ability to make the primarchs by dabbling with the chaos gods is correct, that just pokes even more holes in it all. The dude failed dad parenting 101. Oh, and he forgot to actually warn about the warp and the badness of it.

Discounting the Emperor, I'd argue the Eldar (cabal) are also quite guilty of the disaster. They really did many a thing wrong and honestly it really might come to bite them in the future. I wouldn't really put Lorgar as the root of the blame, Typhon, Kor Phaeron, and Erebus are, in my opinion, much more at fault as their corruption was what really set it off.

I guess you could also say that the Ruinous Powers were largely at fault

Part of your first statement isn't true, at least, isn't true on the Warp, or at least not completely true. The first book of the Horus Heresy says even guys down the totem pole know about the warp, know it can corrupt people, that it can manifest all over, and that some places are more attuned to it, etc.

The difference is, and it is important to note that it is not really wrong, they believed that the Warp was another plane and that it's denizens were just creatures that weren't understood and not 'demons'.

That official line, which they knew of and knew why they needed Gellar fields, that psykers could be corrupted by it, etc is not wrong from a certain point of view.

The Warp IS another plane and it's denizens ARE creatures that we do not fully understand. Demon/not demon is predicated only on the fact that demon implies you cannot fathom it or that it is only evil. Alien means there is a rhyme or reason to it, and there is (we just don't always see it).

Pre-heresy still had demons boarding ships, people fighting them when the Gellar shields were breached, folks becoming monstrous/mutated before the eyes of both Marines and the army, etc etc etc. Pre-heresy they just chalked it all up to non religious reasons. Which isn't wrong, per say.

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:

His total lack of understanding of emotions:
-The handling of the Word Bearers. He put the ideology of his vision ahead of the character of Lorgar. Rather than compromising or having an open dialogue, he publicly shamed his most fragile son. This shows an absolute lack of understanding of emotional responses.
-The acceptance of Curze and Angron as generals of his armies. It doesn't make any sense given what we're told about the Emperor, that he couldn't tell these two were train wrecks. He could have folded their legions into the existing forces and not have risked the obvious consequences of their behavior.
-There are also probably other examples, such as with Perturabo, who felt unrecognized or under appreciated, or Mortarion, who was kind of a broody jerk and probably needed a hug.

He also made it very easy for the Mechanicum to rebel when he telepathically forced the Fabricator General to be his little nancy and string him along for his own purposes.

What does he do after fething with the Fabricator General? Does he perhaps coldly but pragmatically kill him? Maybe he telepathically erases the memories of the Emperor being a jerk to him.

Of course not. He just leaves this resentful little gak to continue being resentful and distrusting of the Emperor, directly leading to half of Mars rebelling.

Also, some of it is bad writing. We know that it was Kor Phaeron who first manipulated Lorgar, and was always secretly loyal to Chaos.

Only Lorgar, with Kor Phaeron by his side, was actually found by the Emperor and Magnus. The two most powerful psykers in the galaxy. Yet they didn't get a bad feeling about this guy? Sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jakejackjake wrote:

It's really the Lorgar Heresy. It just would have taken longer without Horus. Lorgar would have had to fully come into his own before he gained enough respect, but by the time of say "Aurelian" he is more powerful than every traitor Primarch. He beats the piss out of Fulgrim, who is possessed by a demon and even more powerful, he's developed use of his psychic power, and basically has become a badass almost unequaled. If he kept things under wrap until this point his innate ability to inspire coupled with the respect he would have slowly gained for his increased confidence an strength most likely would have resulted in a Heresy anyway

Magnus is still more powerful than Lorgar is.

The Emperor, first and foremost. If he wasn't deliberately trying to start a civil war for some reason (maybe he thought that without an enemy the Imperium would just break apart again, and didn't consider the Orks or Eldar enough of a threat?) then he clearly had no idea how people thought if he couldn't read their minds.

Alpharius has to shoulder some blame as well, since there was no reason for him to trust the visions that an alien race that the Imperium was at war with showed him. He probably could have pulled off a few assassinations even if he had still sided or pretended to side with the traitors.

Having said that, I think a lot of this is hindsight is 20/20.

Did the Emporer do it right? No, not at all (and in some respects I view him as a villain).

Do his actions absolve his 'sons' from their choices? No, not at all.

Even if he'd chosen everything the other way, it would still have happened if only because GW wants the situation the 'galaxy' is currently in. So, regardless of how anyone chose, something would have happened to cause a galactic civil war that caused 40k to come about.

30k is a tale of petulant teenage boys. The few 'adults' are generally not well liked by a lot of players or aren't hugely popular because they aren't emotionally spoilt children at the head of world destroying armies. Can't have 30k/40k without pointless over the top melodrama.

The Chaos Gods, mostly, in the end.

Though don't let you think that absolves the, as Maniac_nmt puts it, "petulant teenage boys" that are most of hte primarchs. Or the obstinance of the Emperor who is a bit of a bad parent.