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Post by: Khaine's Wrath
As a big chaos fan, I'm slightly disappointed at the lack of exceptional units in the codex. This aside they have a few average/good units and it's not too difficult to build a semi decent list.
Personally I have never found a use for hell brutes. Which was never a problem as it was a single model from the DV box set. However, the impending release of the new brute plastic kit allows you to build pretty much every option, and it is also a very nice looking kit.
So I was wondering, how do people play them? Do people play them and to what level of success? And overall, is there a place for them at all?
Cheers guys.
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Post by: Dakkamite
I run three Hellbrutes in my Khornate warband. They're totally gak lol. Hopefully Crimson Slaughter has some neat tricks for them - I've been thinking of fluffing the warband that way since the rumours for it came out like the day after I started it
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Post by: wuestenfux
Is there any place? The same question has been asked about the old Chaos Dread, and he have had no place.
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Post by: Big Blind Bill
I've seen people run a couple alongside mauler fiends in a plague zombie army.
Overall though they are out of luck. A dread, weak by its very nature, with poor shooting options for its cost, in a very shooting orientated edition.
Its not just a choas thing. The only imperial dreads that see any regular use now are the mortis (for anti air), possibly grey knight riflemen and then the contempters.
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Post by: Khaine's Wrath
 wuestenfux wrote:Is there any place? The same question has been asked about the old Chaos Dread, and he have had no place.
Yeah, that was my fear! Automatically Appended Next Post: Can plague zombie armies be competitive?
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Post by: Khorvahn
I run 2 hellbrutes in my iron warriors with missile launchers and reaper auto cannons behind an aegis with a warp smith nearby manning a quad gun. That's 8 auto cannon shots and 2 missiles I also run lots of rhinos he'll drakes and tanks. Works decent.
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Post by: Radical_Edward
Hellbrutes shine at points levels 1000 and under, where there are less threats that can pop them first turn. The problem in playing them in larger games is that they are too fragile and will often give up first blood. They are cheap and are perfect big guns for 500 points brackets though.
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Post by: Musashi363
Three hellbrutes and three forgefiends for alot of armor saturation dakka. Would I take it to a tournament? Probably not. But is it FUN (I know, a dirty word), yes, it is fun.
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Post by: SRSFACE
Why does everyone add a second L into Helbrute and Heldrake?
Honest curiosity.
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Post by: Elgrun
Cause Hell has two L's and its a easy mistake to make.
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Post by: greg0985
 SRSFACE wrote:Why does everyone add a second L into Helbrute and Heldrake?
Honest curiosity.
Probably because this seems like a more Germanic styled name in a predominantly english speaking game community. I'm assuming that the 'hel' in Helbrute is more a reference to hell, the biblical place, and less to Hel, the Norse god(dess?). Also, whilst typing this, my iPads auto-correct changed the 'Hel' to 'Hell' about twenty times lol.
On topic: I have a lot of success using helbrutes as cheap armour saturation. When you're being rushed down by a vindicator, a maulerfiend, Khornate raptors, and a land raider filled to the top with Khorne berserkers and Kharn, the naked helbrute is usually the least of your worries, but if it gets through, you'd be surprised the amount of hurt it can cause. If it doesn't get through, that means my opponent wasted firepower on it and not my other units.
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Post by: Ashiraya
Helbrute and Heldrake is just GW wanting to be special.
Like 'Daemon' when it is called 'demon' everywhere else.
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Post by: Motograter
They can do enough damage if used right. Yes they are fairly weak as are most walkers but with the right application can be deadly
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Post by: ZultanQ
 Musashi363 wrote:Three hellbrutes and three forgefiends for alot of armor saturation dakka. Would I take it to a tournament? Probably not. But is it FUN (I know, a dirty word), yes, it is fun.
Pretty much this, about the only thing I can think of helbrutes being useful for is if you maxed out your HS slots but didn't take any rhinos. Then helbrutes can take a little heat off your other stuff but not if your opponent knows how crap helbrutes are because they'll still just ignore them. So yeah, still useless.
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Post by: khaoschaos
I have two helbrutes and only use them to buff infantry gunline.
Mind you one of them did blow up a heldrake with its multi melta, but then heldrake crashed and destroyed my second brute.
I'm hoping they got some sort of upgrade in crimson slaughter supplement cause without numbers these guys are bad.
Also as a little pointer why can't the warpsmith make them elite and heavy choices. You see them in loyalist lists but not chaos and I think it would be cool and fluffy
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Post by: darkcloak
I actually had some success with a Helbrute very recently. 1500pts vs Tau, and I ran the 'Brute with a TL Las and a Launcher. This is the very best I figure because it kind of reduces the effects of the Crazed table. If you have two guns and you roll a Fire Frenzy... plus the way it's worded, you don't actually have to move the model if no one is in range. Or something like that, I never had to roll on the Crazed table this last game because the lil' ol' Helbrute wasn't a priority target. My two Las Preds on the other hand? Popped. Also the 'Brute is pretty easy to get behind cover so the few shots that did come his way were easy to save.
Personally I like the Helbrute like I like my Dreadnought. Shooty.
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Post by: changerofways
If you can get them into CC range, give em two heavy flamers. I haven't been able to figure out how to do this yet.
In 500 or so point games, the standard loudout is pretty good. The mutil-melta is great for popping vehicles, and the power fist is great for doubling out the opponents HQ
In larger point games, you'll want to give them either Reaper AC and ML/TL Lascannon and ML
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Post by: Khaine's Wrath
The way it sounds, in larger point games I'm better off not taking them at all!
I'm glad I'm not missing a trick though, I'm glad they're as terrible as I thought, even though I love the look of the new ones!
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Post by: wtnind
I played 3 of them for a while but they were baddie bad so i converted them all into daemon princes
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Post by: kronk
If you could take them in a squadron of 3?
Damn, I'd be all over them!
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Post by: whitedragon
I've had marginal success with the following loadouts:
- Reaper Autocannon + Missile Launcher as a cheap sorta "Chaos Rifleman" kinda. Stick behind Aegis line and have a Warpsmith for extra funz. Not good on the Crazed tabled though, but relatively cheap enough that its ok.
- Lascannon/Multi-melta + Powerfist. Depending on the environment you can either hug the Aegis or walk around on your own, but this loadout gives you a gun that can do something, and leaves you with a fist in case you do have to charge something (or go Crazed). The Lascannon works better being farther away more often than not, and the Multi-melta is too short ranged to hide behind an Aegis all game, so YMMV depending on how you do it.
In either of these cases, we're not talking about a lone helbrute, but 2 to 3 of them, and maybe even a Warpsmith to babysit.
Ideally I would rather put them in Drop Pods, but Chaos doesn't have that option. The problem I always run into is that since I play World Eaters, I want my dreads running around with 2x Powerfists and punching things, but unfortunately AV12 aint what it used to be, and they are very slow and Maulerfiends are apparently the thing to do that with.
However, you can make a pretty shooty gunline with shooty helbrutes, shooty CSM's and Havocs/Oblits or whatever. Just make sure you have some fast stuff to play keep away or what not, or just take 2x heldrakes and then it doesn't really matter against most opponents.
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Post by: blaktoof
Hellbrutes would be a lot better if they had It will not die.
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Post by: SRSFACE
Helbrutes if they had a drop pod option would be awesome. I would run double DCCW + heavy flamer Helbrutes all the time if I could actually get them into close combat.
As is, though, they are simply an inferior shooting option for the points than Obliterators or Predators. They take up a different force org slot, that being the only reason you'd take one.
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Post by: Motograter
Helbrutes could do with +1 armour and gaining monstrous creature and losing walker. Why mc, why not gw have essentially made them non dread. It would certainly help them.
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Post by: Andilus Greatsword
At this rate, GW could probably just ditch the Walker rules entirely...
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Post by: wtnind
Except for Super-Heavy walkers ofcourse.
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Post by: Blackskull
I use at least one and sometimes 2, csm has more walkers than all other dexes, so learn to like walker. CSM has no awesome super win units so literally everything is viable, even drake is loosing out now that people are bringing anti flyer material.
our strength lies in dirty tricks and cheap guns
brutes are smaller than tanks so can squeeze in dense terrain and use rhinos to block line of sight. cheap legal trick is the shuffle door. move rhino 6 inches out of the way fire the brutes guns, then in the same shooting phase move rhino flat out backwards to cover the brute again.
drake spam is pretty much our only tourney viable list, but we are now the new orks of 40k, in it for fun 
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Post by: Ailaros
This was the best I could figure out:
 Ailaros wrote:Wait, I just had a silly idea. What about the hellbrute as an MC-killer?
Think about it. Yes, a pred can throw out more dakka, having both a twin-linked lascannon AND a pair of extra lascannons, but that also costs more than the hellbrute (with the lascannon), and the moment that the MC even pretends to get into close combat, that predator is instantly toast. Meanwhile, the hellbrute isn't.
On the other side, for the same price you have the maulerfiend, and the maulerfiend does have the magma cutters, and it can get into close combat more quickly... but it HAS to get into close combat to do anything at all. Meanwhile, the hellbrute can blast things with its lascannon.
But that's not all, the maulerfiend is WS3, which means a lot of stuff out there hits it on 3's. That's bad because it only has I3, which means that it strikes after MCs, rather than concurrently. Meanwhile, the hellbrute gets to attack at I4, and stuff only hits it on 4's, unless you take a 10 point upgrade, in which case there's a one in three chance that they only hit the vehicle on 5's. The takeaway is that the hellbrute is going to put a wound or two on the MC, while the maulerfiend is likely going to get killed before he gets to attack.
So, let's take an example. A dreadknight against a pred will get shot at once, or maybe twice by the pred as the dreadknight shunts in and then blows it up. The dreadknight likely survives at half strength. A dreadknight against a maulerfiend will see 4 or 5 doomfists bash into the maulerfiend, possibly killing it, and, if it doesn't, the maulerfiend puts down a wound or two on the dreadknight and then is killed the next turn. You could give the maulerfiend lash whips, but then he looses free melta hits, and the result is still probably a dead maulerfiend before a dread dreadknight.
Then look at the hellbrute. He'll throw a wound off with his lascannon as the MC shunts forward. And he can charge into close combat, meaning he puts down another wound (thanks to hitting on 3's). The dreadknight has the same maybe kills it, maybe doesn't as the maulerfiend (if a little better), and then the next turn, it ends. If the flails manage to roll a 5 or 6 on two attempts, then the hellbrute wins because the dreadknight just can't connect.
Not, perhaps, the far and away best, but still better. Most importantly, though, it's not obviously weak anywhere. It's not going to fold to move+shooting like a maulerfiend, or to close combat like a predator. The same is true for offensive power as well. Against a riptide, it can sit back and shoot, while against a doom of malantai it can charge into close combat.
And I suppose that's why it's an elites choice then. There's that elusive flexibility. It doesn't get it in mobility, it gets it in killing power. It always has the option to fight in whatever way is most advantageous to it, rather then being pidgeonholed into a single way of doing things that your opponent can see coming and thus avoid or exploit.
I don't know if that makes it worth taking, but I think that's what they were trying to go for with this model.
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Post by: Sasori
Supposedly there will be updated rules for them in the Crimson Slaughter supplement.
I'm holding out hope, as I have 3 of the DV models, and I really do like the new plastic kit.
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Post by: drbored
 Blackskull wrote:I use at least one and sometimes 2, csm has more walkers than all other dexes, so learn to like walker. CSM has no awesome super win units so literally everything is viable, even drake is loosing out now that people are bringing anti flyer material.
our strength lies in dirty tricks and cheap guns
brutes are smaller than tanks so can squeeze in dense terrain and use rhinos to block line of sight. cheap legal trick is the shuffle door. move rhino 6 inches out of the way fire the brutes guns, then in the same shooting phase move rhino flat out backwards to cover the brute again.
drake spam is pretty much our only tourney viable list, but we are now the new orks of 40k, in it for fun
This here is what I'm trying to embrace. Fun stuff, trying out janky things that you wouldn't normally see.
I myself prefer the Plasma Cannon/Missile Launcher Helbrute, in an army with 4 5-man squads of Noise Marines with Blastmasters. I have great luck with small blast templates, so covering those cowering squads of my opponent's troops, or hitting two vehicles at once are my favorite things to do! That, plus a Heldrake, and my opponent will often try to spread his units out, to the point where they're really not as effective, and I can hit more models than I would normally with something like an autocannon.
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Post by: Blackskull
Exalted fun lover, tis a game after all.
Ailaros point on MC killer is well founded, against nids this is encouraged as a lot of their armour solutions are tied up in MC that typically have low initiative, and even the high initiative one can be countered by terrain use.
set a brute in terrain, what it is doesn't matter as models charging models through terrain loose extra attack and count initiative as 1. nids grenade access sucks so camping a brute this way and making use of a lascannon makes him costly for a nid players to shift. he will gib zoanthoapes who are the only flaw of this tactic using the cannon. you have to add a flamer to this or he will horde you with lesser bugs to stop you shooting.
this worked fine against the older codex but it got a bit spoiled by the introduction of the exocrine, still 140pts and very annoying = profit.
nid players moaned about their new dex but it feels like the chaos one, it promotes use of your head rather than super WAAC unit
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Post by: Jancoran
Helbrutes hold such promise. Armor 12 isn't weak. It isn't a lot of points. It acts kinda like an armored obliterator in a way but it lacks the deployment optionto deep strike unfortunately.
I don't know for sure on this one because I've seen no one but me play with one and I abandoned it quickly for the fact that i COULD get an obliterator instead.
Still, as a backfield defense unit, possibly reserved for LATER in the game, there could be some serious value. The Helbrute is actually quite good if you can avoid it getting shot up, and as a reserve it is allowed to kill freely after your other forces have formally engaged the foe to the fore.
Drop armies are in no way fond of seeing a Helbrute because it forces them to fire at IT rather than a truly important target (those that score). As a reserve it can come in after a unit has engaged the offending drop unit, bide its time and help them break free. Here again though, because it IS a vehicle, its limited in contesting and claiming objectives.
It's a tweener unit that needs a specific tactic and mission assigned to it. You dont just put it in the list because its "good". you put it in for a very specific purpose. Good news is, it's not in a slot that tends to get over used for Chaos. So the slot it occupies is probably its strength if you're going for armor saturation. In the presence of a LOT of other armor, it can help protect those other pieces.
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Post by: Blackskull
Obliterators run different rolls to brutes, marines are often described as a jack of all trades excelling at nothing but being good at everything. Brutes play the same way, you are not the best tank killer but you can do it, you are not great at killing massed infantry but you can do it (although saying this dual flamer brute is horrifyingly effective), and your not the best monster hunter but you can do it.
A brute has a chance at succeding at what ever role you decide to use him in. This makes it flexible in TAC lists as he can enhance areas of your army, lascannon PF and flamer is a good TAC loadout. Camp back with lascannon against tanks, torch light infantry with your flamer and fist elites. Pick the roll needed depending on your opponent.
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Post by: Ailaros
I suppose what that means as well is that hellbrutes get better the fewer points you have.
At 750 points, a tri-las predator that's sort of only good against vehicles and MCs starts to become a much riskier investment than a hellbrute, which can sort of do everything.
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Post by: Vaktathi
The problem with Chaos Dreads...er Hellbrutes, is that they're not particularly good at any one thing and are exceedingly vulnerable to being killed by HP damage. They're not much scarier in CC than a powerfist champ other than they're harder to hurt relative to most targets, they're not particularly cost effective as a shooting platform, it's very difficult to synergize both their shooting and CC abilities, and they're low enough AV that HP loss to common mid-strength weapons is a major issue while they're big enough that many players also will put major AT guns like lascannons into them that will get rid of them quite quickly. They're also rather slow.
They're better than they were, but instead of being actively potentially harmful, they just don't carry their weight.
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Post by: Warmaster
I can get over most of the issues up above. The one thing that makes them unplayable to me is that they cannot contest or score. Just giving walkers the ability to contest would make them much more likely to be taken by me. At least maulerfieds and grinders will score every once in a while due to the mission type but an elite choice dreadnaught never has that opportunity.
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Post by: Savageconvoy
The problem for me is the vehicle damage chart. A single pen can stun it for a turn, make it immobile, or reduce it to a single weapon right before rolling on the Helbrute's rage chart. They start off cheap, which I think is the way to leave them, since any more quickly drives them down in cost effectiveness.
I love the model and want to love the actual unit in game. If I had more time to dedicate to another army, I'd love to take three helbrutes with three mauler fiends, it's under 700 points for 6 AV12 vehicles that just can't be ignored. Follow them up with bikes and spawn while holding some cultist in the back and you could have a very fast sweeping army. The problem is that what sounds good doesn't always work out well on the table. Vehicles have a lot of draw backs that are exclusive to vehicles. Blind for example is extremely rare on weapons, yet so many weapons can force a vehicle to snap fire just by getting a pen.
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Post by: Blackskull
they don't even need to pen that the worst part, just hit.
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Post by: Ailaros
Actually, they need to suffer a glancing or penetrating hit, not just any hit. In any case, the current berzerker rage thing is at worst, a wash, and sometimes a slight benefit, and is CERTAINLY better than the old rule.
And yeah, you can't stun-lock deadnoughts either anymore, at least, not in anywhere near the same way you used to. Throw in the rolley-go-crazy table, and hellbrutes have gained from the switch to HP more than most.
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Post by: Blackskull
actually I was on about blind weapons, against vehicles without initiative they fail the test 5 out of 6 times and snap fire. sensory overload invalidates predators. nice way to allow a brute to advance.
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Post by: Spellbound
I've had fun running 3 maulerfiends, 3 helbrutes (just MM/fist) and then some infantry support with shooting.
Everyone laughs, and they take first blood from you, but then.... then the melta weapons run out. Then the S7 weapons run out. Then you control the board.
It was fun!
I want to do a 2k, double force org game where I take 3 maulerfiends, 3 forgefiends, and 6 helbrutes.
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Post by: koooaei
I've run a hellbrute in a few games. Vs crons and tyranids. In both games hellbrute was a waste of points and did nothing. However, i've run a stock version of it - multimelta + PF. Probably, there are setups that are better like Laz+ML, Plazma-cannon+Something. I'd not hope to get any luck with 2 flamers cause unlike the loyalists, you don't have droppods and being an av12 regular walker is not really promising.
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Post by: Blackskull
Vs crons
Depending on the army, flyer spam a helbrute is useless.
However on a massed infantry lists a ml and plasma cannon is a nice loadout, gauss ruins vehicles so avoid rapid fire range like the plague.
Nids
The TAC brute, lascannon, pf, HF, takes on mc and lesser bugs, new dex buffed bids so be careful and don't rely on little brute to slay big things on his lonesome.
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Post by: Kain
I've never been particularly impressed by Chaos Dreads, and remain unimpressed by Helbrutes.
They can work, even well with proper handling and the favor of the dice, but the amount of effort and fortune needed to make them function well is simply usually not worth it. They also have the misfortune of being medium armored walkers in an edition where everyone and their dog can open medium armor like a tin can and don't even have any Daemon rules despite being specifically outed as Daemon Engines (*sigh*), and they don't have the number of attacks to get anywhere attacking blobs and will get their faces beaten in by most monstrous creatures unless you build them to Ailaros' specifications.
Termicide remains the most popular option for Chaos armies because dumping a bunch of 2+ save combi-weapon holders (with some termi special weapons if you want, and power weapons by default) all up in someone's grill remains an efficient way to throw someone off his game and take out something he values. The Helbrute on the other hand, remains consigned to mediocrity.
The uncertainty of whether your Helbrute will decide to wear it's adamantium pants on it's view port for one turn and having to plan around that is also a rather unfortunate downside. But it's certainly better than before where it could, at any time decide to dump a pair of plasma cannon shots and four autocannon rounds into your formation because reasons.
But always remember to look on the bright side, at least it's gotten a less raw deal than the Defiler.
It remains a decent platform for the Plasma cannon and is a good bully unit in melee, in that while it will get it's face rolled by any serious melee units it can push around and hurt those that aren't good at fighting back and don't have the mass to keep it stuck punching termagants for the rest of the game. If you want a gunline army, you could do worse than the Helbrute to get in more guns in the elite slot.
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Post by: koooaei
I agree that he's not abyssmally bad like possessed or warp talons. He's more like 1000 sons. Not bad in some situations, pretty fun to use cause seen rarely but a waste overall.
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Post by: Spellbound
Ok how about this for discussion:
You have 100 points. What else do you spend it on?
A 5 man marine squad of some type?
A sorcerer?
A bare bones predator?
20 cultists?
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Post by: JubbJubbz
My best friend plays DE so I play my CSM vs DE more than any other army and the 'brute actually does pretty good against them. The AV 12 isn't an issue because pretty well everything is av 12 against DE lances. Its immune to the hail of poison shots so they if they're killing it, its with their dedicated anti-vehicle units, which means they aren't blowing up my heavy support. Its slowness doesn't stand out either because everything is slow compared to DE. In addition, most anything that doesn't have haywire grenades is helpless against it in cc.
Even with most its weaknesses assuaged its still not the greatest unit but it does better than against many armies. It can pretty reliably punch a DE vehicle in twain on a charge. It won't catch them often, but this does allow you to dissuade any vehicle coming within 6+2D6 inches. Meanwhile its gun is still threatening. The RAC really shines against DE.
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Post by: khaoschaos
Helbrutes should have more attacks as they're basically maniacs on steroids. And marks too.
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Post by: Jancoran
Marks no. More attacks: yes.
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Post by: Ailaros
No reason you couldn't engineer a mark system as a house rule. Khorne, tzeentch and slaanesh would be easy enough.
You'd just need to do nurgle in such a way where it wouldn't be BS more powerful, like upgrading the hellbrute to AV13 for only 5 more points than a MoK.
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Post by: whitedragon
Ailaros wrote:No reason you couldn't engineer a mark system as a house rule. Khorne, tzeentch and slaanesh would be easy enough.
You'd just need to do nurgle in such a way where it wouldn't be BS more powerful, like upgrading the hellbrute to AV13 for only 5 more points than a MoK.
The "easiest" way to do marks is to use the same marks from the soulgrinder in the Chaos Demons codex. They are all pointed up for you and everything, and should be easier for most folks to stomach in a friendly game since at least they come out of a book of some kind rather than just being made up.
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Post by: JubbJubbz
Shrouded? yes please.
There's also the FW 'marks' for walkers right? I'm not up to date on FW.
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Post by: koooaei
 Spellbound wrote:Ok how about this for discussion:
You have 100 points. What else do you spend it on?
A 5 man marine squad of some type?
A sorcerer?
A bare bones predator?
20 cultists?
They all have different roles. In many situations 2*10 cultists will be more useful just cause they're scoring. But they can't do much in combat.
I think you can pay 115 for predator with sponson lazcannons. And Hellbrute with ML+ AC will cost identical 115 pts But i'd go for plazma cannon for +5 pts. Which is better? It all depends on a map you've made and the opponent u're facing. If the opponent can abuse blos than hellbrute is somewhat better cause he can move and shoot 2 weapons at full bs. If you can afford to remain stationary than predator is clearly better and more durable being immune to s6 with his front armor which is common in current meta. So, here's where a helbrute can somewhat compete with predator in a number of situations.
Sorc is really great. To be honest, i value a sorc more than a chaos lord just cause he's versatile and can start contributing to the fight from the start and not just when and if he gets to mellee. Even in mellee he's a force to be reckoned with. But they have totally different roles with helbrute and hard to compare. Besides, i like my sorcs to be ml3 with spell familliars, sigil and on bike. That's how you make them shine. It's 170 pts before marks thoung.
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Post by: Spellbound
Chaos dreadnoughts used to have 3 attacks base. I miss those days.
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Post by: Jancoran
well I dont see why they don't now. Its a mystery to me. I suppose they are seen as a "sgt" with a real big superiority complex and no other means to express it but to mount up in a biosuit with BFG's
Still... The Helbrute model is ripper and I do like ti a lot. And if they ever gave it a littlemore oomph I'd like to field it. Maybe I'll get bored and make an army that uses them.
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Post by: changerofways
Ailaros wrote:No reason you couldn't engineer a mark system as a house rule. Khorne, tzeentch and slaanesh would be easy enough. You'd just need to do nurgle in such a way where it wouldn't be BS more powerful, like upgrading the hellbrute to AV13 for only 5 more points than a MoK.
What about the decimator marks? 15 pts Dedication of Khorne: The Decimator gains the Rampage special rule. 25 pts Dedication of Nurgle: The Decimator gains the It Will Not Die special rule. 15 pts Dedication of Slaanesh: The Decimator counts as being equipped with both assault and defensive grenades. 25 pts Dedication of Tzeentch: The Decimator may re-roll all To Hit rolls of 1 with its shooting attacks, and its heavy flamers (if it has any) gain the Soul Blaze special rule.
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Post by: Spellbound
My biggest failure with helbrutes was when a squad of deathwing terminators landed next to a trio of them.
I charged all three into this 5-man squad of terminators. I didn't kill a single one, and they wrecked all three helbrutes in return.
Sad, sad day. He didn't even have storm shields. What do you do when the dice just decide it's not your day....
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Post by: wtnind
Spellbound wrote:My biggest failure with helbrutes was when a squad of deathwing terminators landed next to a trio of them.
Helbrutes have a hard enough time vs a fist full of krak grenades let alone power fists / thunder hammers. Really I wouldn't charge anything except vehicles,buildings or guardsmen with one (if you want to tarpit them and they don't have melta bombs).
I also wouldn't buy any of those Decimator marks at that price since the Hellbrute's only favour going for it is it's cheapness, 9/10 games none of those marks will do anything anyway. Decimator comes back from the dead and has AV 13 front (I think?) so all in all a way better deal (but still instant loose to MC)
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Post by: SRSFACE
Spellbound wrote:My biggest failure with helbrutes was when a squad of deathwing terminators landed next to a trio of them.
I charged all three into this 5-man squad of terminators. I didn't kill a single one, and they wrecked all three helbrutes in return.
Sad, sad day. He didn't even have storm shields. What do you do when the dice just decide it's not your day....
I know that pain, man. I think we all do. What do you do is laugh, then come up with a story why your Helbrutes were miserable at attacking. Ends up making it funny rather than frustrating.
Anyway I still contest the issue with Helbrutes is simply a total lack of way to get them in combat. Can you stick one in a Dreadclaw? Would be worth getting a Dreadclaw just for that, I think. I keep having visions of a double fist, double heavy flamer Helbrute in enemy backfields. Would be a lot of fun, I imagine, as any of his crazed results wouldn't really hinder him anymore.
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Post by: Ailaros
To be fair, taking out dreadnoughts is one of THE things that THSS terminators are made for. You might as well complain about how badly your guardsmen held up against khorne berzerkers.
Unless you're talking about non-SS termies, in which case, you were probably just really unlucky. With the flail there's a chance that they were only hitting you on 5's. Even without, 3 S8 hits against AV12 is survivable.
But once again, I don't think that anyone is holding up dreadnoughts in CC as a way to handle terminators, whether their dreads are CSM or no.
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Post by: Laughingcarp
@SRSFACE; yep, Dreadclaws can fit a 'Brute. Will let you know how that goes!
Ailaros, I've read your Helbrute re-model commission piece; what's your opinion on the new kit they've released?
Tried the Plasma/ML and the cheapness is awesome but the TL-Las is just so much more reliable for both hitting and penetrating.
So obvs no buff to Helbrutes in Crimson Laughter, but the Helbrute Dataslate out on the 22nd says it has 3 formations.
The names alone make me want to pay the 4$, and are further proof that GW is trying to beat the Murder Sword for silliest name ever;
-Mayhem Pack
-Helcult
-Helfist Murderpack
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Post by: Khaine's Wrath
Sounds interesting, but the fundamental flaw won't change! Their stat line is just dreadful! Read the fluff in the dex, and then see if their frankly pathetic 2 attacks stands up to the story. He's also supposed to be a daemon...and yet gains no daemonic bonuses.
Give him It Will Not Die, 3 attacks basic, a D6 attacks daemon weapon upgrade, and an eldar battle focus rule where it can run then shoot, or shoot then run and then I MIGHT be interested. Even at a higher points cost. And that's a MIGHT. But I need it to fit the background story, and it doesn't!
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Post by: Ailaros
Khaine's Wrath wrote:Give him It Will Not Die, 3 attacks basic, a D6 attacks daemon weapon upgrade, and an eldar battle focus rule where it can run then shoot, or shoot then run and then I MIGHT be interested. Even at a higher points cost.
Yeah, lol. That would raise the base price of a hellbrute to ~175-195 points. No one would take it then.
Laughingcarp wrote:Ailaros, I've read your Helbrute re-model commission piece; what's your opinion on the new kit they've released?
Well, it's not longer a two-piece snap-together, so that already makes it better. That you can pose it in some other way than it's ultra-derp also greatly helps.
Still not my favorite model, though. Were I to run hellbrutes, I think I'd buy one of those kits and one of the regular SM dreadnought kits and then bash the two together to make a pair of hellbrutes. Unlike the helldrake or maulerfiend, which do a nice job of balancing flesh and metal, the hellbrute is too fleshy for my taste. Needs more steel. Needs to look more like a dreadnought.
That I'd be able to do said kit-bashing without needing to kill myself, of course, is an improvement.
Laughingcarp wrote:-Helfist Murderpack
Damn you GW! How dare you make something so silly that I'd have no choice but to field it!
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Post by: Laughingcarp
Ailaros wrote:Damn you GW! How dare you make something so silly that I'd have no choice but to field it!
Truth.
Good to hear you'll live through the process! If you ever get around to those conversions, please post pics!
I like the fleshiness of the 'Brutes but to each his own. I should add I really dig how you changed up the front of the Dread model you converted. Looks much more solid, and the spellbook is a nice touch.
Khaine's Wrath; maybe an extra attack or two, Daemonforge and Daemon, but then they'd really have to bump the points cost. Right now I believe it's exactly on par with Loyalist Dreads, with the exception that they get a free storm-bolter, searchlight, and smoke launcher.
I'm not saying that everything Chaos Space Marine should just be spiky loyalist copy-pastes, but that if two things are the same shouldn't they be priced similarly? Give us the Daemon rule (Or at least IWND) instead of the storm-bolter, searchlight and smoke, and call it square.
What about just editing the Crazed rule to be not a penalty to whatever way you try to build a Helbrute? Leave the rest of it as-is, keep it 100pts.
1-Not immobilized, only that it must fire both weapons twice at blah blah blah targets if unengaged.
2-Same, ignores shaken/stirred adds rage
3-Rage & Fleet, don't force it to run.
Suddenly much more viable, and not strategy-gimping.
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Post by: Ailaros
Just giving it demon for +15 or points would be enough to fix it. Hellbrutes don't need to be monstrous creatures, they just need to follow the same rules as the other demon engines in the codex.
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Post by: l0k1
According to the previews I've been reading through the digital editions Facebook page it kooks like one of the formations will allow for teleporting a group of Helbrutes on to the battlefield. Another formation grants a 5+ invuln save to a group of Helbrutes.
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Post by: Laughingcarp
Deep Strike for the Mayhem Pack.
Possibly joining with cultists (and occasionally eating them), with a minimum formation of 20 cultists and 1 'Brute for the Helcult.
Alpha Helbrute gaining Character type and 5++ for Helfist Murderpack.
These are the hints thus far.
http://www.blacklibrary.com/new-at-bl/Brutes-from-Hell.html
Nice catch l0k1, didn't know about that page.
Ran two Helbrutes in my match tonight. 2x PF/HFlamer got blown up before it could do anything other than area denial, but saved one of my forgefiends from being targeted.
ML/ PC reliably took out two Iron Hands bikes/turn, earning back his points and saving my cultists and forgefiends from double-tap plasma and CC.
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Post by: Kain
Ailaros wrote:Just giving it demon for +15 or points would be enough to fix it. Hellbrutes don't need to be monstrous creatures, they just need to follow the same rules as the other demon engines in the codex.
Daemon would be much more fitting with how they're described, yes. And a 5++ can save your bacon.
As for the Helfist murderpack...that is one of the most over the top goofy names I have ever seen in 40k and I absolutely love it. That's like naming your villain Goretalon Spineripper Murderdeath.
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Post by: SRSFACE
I don't care there aren't any locator beacons or teleport homers for Chaos anymore. 10/10, would field.
Teleporting in some melee-ish oriented Helbrutes while also running a pack of Maulerfiends... MUST. DO. MUUUSTTTT.
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Post by: Laughingcarp
I know, so much hilarity will ensue.
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Post by: MWHistorian
I'm actually optimistic about this!
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Post by: wtnind
I imagine the conversation went:
"So Bob, how are our Helbrutes doing? I'm so proud of our scultpts team these guys look mean! and so many weapon options, I bet we sold a hundredweight of them right?"
"We'll sir we sold 15"
"15 hundredweight? 15 thousand what?"
"No sir... we sold 15"
"WHAT?!?!"
"Well it could maybe be to do with the fact that the entire Dark Vengence chaos collection only costs £30... or maybe it's because Helbrutes are terrible?"
"Ok.... let's issue a FAQ giving them Independent Character, that should fix it... but only if they have the thunder hammer! don't want that Dark Vengence issue biting us like you say."
"... um... well I guess we could do a Dataslate"
"YES! Excellent idea, slap on some artwork, a bit off fluff and we can start raking it in"
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Post by: nareik
If I had deep striking helbrutes I'd try fit in a disc riding lord with dimensional key.
No idea if it would work well but zipping forwards to tear a whole in reality and pull out a bunch of angry dead guys in killer robots is surely FTN FTW*!!
*
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Post by: ductvader
wtnind wrote:
"... um... well I guess we could do a Dataslate"
"YES! Excellent idea, slap on some artwork, a bit off fluff and we can start raking it in"
Amount I have spent on Tyranid dataslates:
$0
Amount I have spent on Lictors, Gargoyles, Crones, etc due to the occurrence of "free" dataslates:
DEFINITELY NOT $0
Dataslates are a great idea in my opinion...but there's really no reason to charge for them...even for your business model.
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Post by: Laughingcarp
Yeah it's a cash grab, and yeah they're not necessarily game-changers.
But for guys like me, who bought two extra helbrutes off ebay for 5$ each after just getting into 40K/starting my CSM army/before I knew what I was doing, it'll be a nice callback to the early days!
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Post by: Jancoran
well regardless of how they get to the conclusion, the Helbrutes needed to be better.
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Post by: Artanis
Hey guys, got the dataslate and just wanted to share the available options with my fellow crazed Chaos players:
Mayhem Pack
-3 Helbrutes
-It Will Not Die
-Deep Strike (one roll for all 3)
-Tormented Terrors (must roll on Crazed table at the start of each movement phase)
Helcult
- 1 Helbrute, 2 units of Cultists
- Apocalyptic Fury (Helbrute has Rage, hits Cultists on To Hit rolls of 1)
- Living Idols of Chaos (Fearless Cultists if Helbrute alive, Zealot if dead)
- Human Shields (3+ cover saves from Cultists, remove one if save made)
Helfist Murderpack
- 5 HELBRUTES
- Counts as a single squadron
- One is nominated as a Champion Character (AoDG, LoS!), not Champion of Chaos!
- If the Champion is alive, for any Brute that has a crazed marker you can choose the result instead of rolling and this applies to the whole squadron.
- If the Champion dies, all others get Rage
Sounds like fun, especially for those with piles of Brutes from DV
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Having read the Helbrute Dataslate (review is in my sig), I have to say that the Helcult is the most amusing formation, and thus the one I'm more likely to field, while the Mayhem Pack is likely the most practical.
Helfist Murderpack is for dropping 500+ points of 'Brutes on the board because the game is that big, because you need an excuse to own that many or you just want to really screw with someone in a 1.5k point game with that much armor in a massive formation. Not practical, possibly entertaining and I see it getting some mileage with some people, but not everyone.
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Post by: Dakkamite
So, been looking through the Helbrute dataslate... seriously this is a solid effort to make Helbrutes "good enough" to play, and thats all I was hoping for.
Mayhem Pack; deep striking makes up for their crap movement. Relatively cheap instant multi melta to the arse of any vehicle. Have to all be nuked immediately or will have DCCW running about
Helcult; the cultists are fearless as long as the helbrute is alive. I see this being used for shenanigans. Could also be good scoring for anyone who is AoC with Chaos and needs fearless blobs, if I have my allied dataslate rules right (ie, take any you want)
Murderpack; anything that lets me put five helbrutes on the table totally gets my approval. Its also not that bad. The biggest problem with it IMO is that having five big gun hellbrutes with super shooting from the crazed table shooting just one target is gonna be a big waste of firepower
Honestly if this is what they have in mind for their dataslates, I'm actually fairly impressed.
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Post by: wtnind
 Dakkamite wrote:
Helcult; the cultists are fearless as long as the helbrute is alive. I see this being used for shenanigans. Could also be good scoring for anyone who is AoC with Chaos and needs fearless blobs, if I have my allied dataslate rules right (ie, take any you want)
If the helbrute dies then the cultists get Zealot which is Fearless + Hatred. So the question is do you want to spend 100 points to give 2 large blobs fearless and optionally hatred, I say yes!
Now you don't need Typhus to drown the board in cheap fearless bodies although I guess you might be limited to 1xHelcult formation (unless you can take one under csm and one under black legion).
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Post by: ClockworkZion
I recently asked GW DE about if you could take a formation using the Supplements (as I was asked about Tau signature systems for Riptides from the Farsight codex supplement being used in the Formation) but I've yet to get an answer. When I do I think that'll cover if/how we pair these dataslate formations up to their armies.
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Post by: MWHistorian
I know this sounds crazy but, those rules actually sound... fun.
70626
Post by: Dakkamite
wtnind wrote: Dakkamite wrote:
Helcult; the cultists are fearless as long as the helbrute is alive. I see this being used for shenanigans. Could also be good scoring for anyone who is AoC with Chaos and needs fearless blobs, if I have my allied dataslate rules right (ie, take any you want)
If the helbrute dies then the cultists get Zealot which is Fearless + Hatred. So the question is do you want to spend 100 points to give 2 large blobs fearless and optionally hatred, I say yes!
Now you don't need Typhus to drown the board in cheap fearless bodies although I guess you might be limited to 1xHelcult formation (unless you can take one under csm and one under black legion).
As far as I can tell, you can literally take as many formations as you want as long as you fill 1 HQ 2 Troops before that.
Though it looks like a fair few TOs are homeruling otherwise. Which is a pity because they're punishing cool formations like these because of gak ones like the Firebase
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Post by: Khaine's Wrath
Here's a question - would the helcult formation contribute towards the 2 obligatory troops choices?
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Post by: Hollismason
The Mayhem pack really is the first bang for your buck. 3 Dreadnoughts w/ Feel No Pain, Ability to Deep Strike , and have to roll on the table? That's not terrible. Although it can kind of mess you over.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
The 'Brutes in a Mayhem Pack have "It Will Not Die" not "Feel no Pain".
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Post by: herpguy
I don't think mayhem pack is good at all. Deep striking is pretty unreliable and moreso with a giant dreadnought base with no protection. IWND is useless on Helbrutes because it's not like they survive subsequent turns, and they can easily be blown up anyway. Plus a MM with no TL deepstriking is extremely unreliable.
I think the Helcult looks really good because you can get two cultists blobs with "free" fearless. The 3+ cover is also very nice and could get your opponent to waste some shots on a low priority (and only 100 point) model.
Finally I think the 5 helbrute formation could be surprisingly good. 500 points for a pretty good deathstar that will be very hard to chew through with the current meta (not impossible by any means). I would like to playtest this one because it seems like it could be good. They're slow as anything but I would probably give all 5 plasma cannons.
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Post by: Laughingcarp
Helcult is absolutely happening, more often than not.
@ Khaine's Wrath; Nope the Helcult's cultists DON'T COUNT as your two mandatory troop choices. Formations exist outside of the FOC, so you still need 2 troops & your HQ. But having 4 scoring units is far from a bad idea.
The Mayhem Pack will also see table time.
Questions are twofold:
1-What would you kit out the Mayhem Pack helbrutes with? Heavy Flamer? Or keep 'em cheap?
@herpguy, "A walker that moved can still fire all of its weapons in the subsequent shooting phase." p.84.
Walkers don't have to snap-shot when they deep strike since they don't have a cruising speed they could have moved at that would force snap shots.
2- More importantly, how does the Deep Strike work with the Helbrutes in this formation?
Deep Strike each one individually?
Deep Strike them as a vehicle squadron?
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Post by: ClockworkZion
They 'Brutes aren't a squadron, and the rules don't say the Deep Strike together, just that they all come onto the table at the same time, so I'd say they Deep Strike seperately as they operate as individual models and can't Deep Strike as a unit.
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Post by: herpguy
Laughingcarp, I never said they had to snap shoot. 1 BS4 shot is not reliable at all.
74740
Post by: Laughingcarp
My apologies Herpguy, I mistakenly made the assumption that's what you meant by unreliable, as I understand BS4 to be among the more reliable non-HQ stats out there.
ClockworkZion, I agree with you 100%. They aren't a squadron and therefore shouldn't be treated as such; the only similarity to a squadron DSign is that they arrive at the same time.
Thing is some people feel that "formation" means they have to arrive "in formation" as well.
Which doesn't make sense and follows no rules as written whatsoever. Right?
Edit: Not to mention it specifically says "... all of the units in this formation arrive from reserve by Deep Strike."
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Post by: Khaine's Wrath
I absolutely agree. (Though not entirely sure if this is because this is how I want it to work) I sense some dirty helbrute lists turning up! I'm actually in shock., it's seems GW have recognised a problem AND managed to rectify it with some decent rules. Kinda feels like the first of the four horsemen showing up. I'm tempted with 2 deepstrike formations and 2 cult formations. 8 brutes on the board, 4 units of cultists and a sorcerer at 1500 points. It seems the answer to my very original post has in fact changed.
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Post by: Captyn_Bob
you would still need 2 regular compulsory troops, but yeah.. brutes are cool now..
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Post by: avedominusnox
Can the formations be used with CD lists? Or are they usable by CSM only? Cause in CD they can give some serious range anti-tank threat. Either the DS brutes/ 3 stock with MM and PF.
And probably the cultists/brute config formation can be great for CD. 2 fearless troops with a shooting configured brute for some object camping. This can have a big footprint to support a screamer-star. You can for example use two of these hel-cult formations, 2 brutes with anti-tank and maybe some CC. What do you guys think?
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Post by: herpguy
Yes they can be used in any army that can take CSM allies.
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Post by: Khaine's Wrath
Mega!
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Post by: gigasnail
take the brute squadron, kit it up for shooting and add the crimson slaughter divination sorcerer and a choppy lord. ghetto cent star.
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Post by: Dr. What
I broke down and bought the dataslate. The typos scarily common. I don't think they even considered proof reading.
I run Typhus as one of my HQ's along with my Black Mace Lord.
Does that mean that if I run the Helcult, can I turn the Cultists into Plague Zombies?
The rule states that "Any Chaos Cultist units in the same army as Typhus can be nominated as Plague Zombies."
This way I could shield a Helbrute (probably with an Autocannon) as he marches down the board and give myself some board control.
Otherwise, I'll probably just run the Mayhem Pack with Autocannons and my minimal zombie squads that I usually keep in reserve.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
 Dr. What wrote:I broke down and bought the dataslate. The typos scarily common. I don't think they even considered proof reading.
After years of typos in my government produced manuals and now in my several hundred dollar text books I'm okay with them in my $6 iPad dataslate. 
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Post by: herpguy
I broke down and bought it too because it's only $5. If it was $17 like some of the other ones it wouldn't happen.
My favorite typo is "Aura of Dark Majesty".
Anyways, characters can't join a vehicle squadron.
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Post by: gigasnail
damnit! found it, nevermind. thanks for the heads up there, it's like in the first or 2nd sentence in the IC rules.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
 herpguy wrote:I broke down and bought it too because it's only $5. If it was $17 like some of the other ones it wouldn't happen.
My favorite typo is "Aura of Dark Majesty".
Anyways, characters can't join a vehicle squadron.
That typo only exists in the ePub version oddly.
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Post by: Johnnytorrance
Dr. What wrote:I broke down and bought the dataslate. The typos scarily common. I don't think they even considered proof reading.
I run Typhus as one of my HQ's along with my Black Mace Lord.
Does that mean that if I run the Helcult, can I turn the Cultists into Plague Zombies?
The rule states that "Any Chaos Cultist units in the same army as Typhus can be nominated as Plague Zombies."
This way I could shield a Helbrute (probably with an Autocannon) as he marches down the board and give myself some board control.
Otherwise, I'll probably just run the Mayhem Pack with Autocannons and my minimal zombie squads that I usually keep in reserve.
I'm interested in this as well. Does anyone know for certain if this is an option?
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Post by: gigasnail
it should work fine, typhus's entry says 'in same army' not 'in same detachment.' makes the cultists SnP as well as fearless/FNP, so be aware they're not running anywhere which you may or may not care about with this formation.
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Post by: herpguy
I think that Typhus would still make even allied cultists zombies.
Anyways if you are already taking Typhus there is no point in bringing the Helbrute formation in the first place.
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