From my paperwork and math (no play experience yet) IK seem reasonably easy to drop. Does anyone have experience with how survivable they are? By adding a command melta drop squad to my IF list that uses 2 devestator units, it seems like I could drop one on turn one.

Easy to kill? When you have the means, yes. Otherwise, not. Then he will dominate and dictate the whole game.

All comers lists which have anti-infantry, anti-tank, anti-flyer, anti-superheavies and anti-whatnot are not easy to field due to point limitations.

Well, its a "light superheavy", so as long you got a healthy amount of anti-tank, its within the realm of possibility.

But do NOT mistake it for easy, a single melta team will NOT drop it, and the knight is a bit of a "kill it while you can" type of guy, as they are VERY good once they hit your lines.

 thecapn226 wrote:
From my paperwork and math (no play experience yet) IK seem reasonably easy to drop. Does anyone have experience with how survivable they are? By adding a command melta drop squad to my IF list that uses 2 devestator units, it seems like I could drop one on turn one.

3.333 hits, 1.667 post ion shield, probably two pens, probably not both explodes and even if they are both explodes you need to roll at least a 2 out of D3 on both dice to drop a Knight T1.

Here's a thread from the other week about killing Knights, listing the best way for most armies to deal with it.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/581327.page

Take multi meltas on one of your devestator squads instead. meltaguns are going to be a problem as their short range runs the risk of getting caught in a D strength blast,

BrianDavion wrote:
If I wasn't taking a Knight anyway I'd be looking at taking a pair of space marine muli-melta devestator squads. you can get 2 of em in a droppod for about 290 points. and they'd be reasonably solid in choices. even a single multimelta squad would be a threat to a Knight.

Coming out of a pod, one hit if your lucky. Impossible to kill a Knight with one meltagun.

Super Heavies do not function according to the regular damage chart, people. Everyone telling you they are "easy" to kill doesn't quite get that a pen and a glance are essentially the same thing against a super heavy. You also can't ever blow it up in a single super lucky roll. Significant damage, yes. Total annihilation, no.

You also have to keep in mind you're only working at 50% efficiency at best with what'll be the most dangerous squad against it. If you're unable to get a pincer attack on it with two anti-tank units, you're leaving it up to chance whether your attacks even make it through the 4++ invulnerable save.

Considering it's a super heavy, it can stomp through to gain area terrain cover bonuses really easily, as well.

Oh, and also the Paladin is just going to sit back and laugh at you all game with it's double ordnance S8 AP3 60"-range Large blasts should you have the anti-tank weaponry to handle it "with ease." Typically anti-tank weaponry in bulk only comes via Strength D weaponry or is really close range via melta guns or Melta bombs. Dark Eldar can field a ton of Lance weaponry for cheap, but that's all I can really think of in terms of any one army having lots of long range anti-tank weaponry in their TAC lists.

This talk about them being balance, because they can be killed isn't rational.

Sure you can build a list where you can kill one. But have you forgotten that it is legal to run 3-5 of them? Most people don't want to run 1 of anything. Does anybody know a Tau player who runs only a single Riptide? A Tyranid player with a single flyrant? An elder playrer with only one wave serpent?

"I can drop pod in 3 squads of melta gunners, and kill one, so they are entirely balanced." What then happens when the other 4 Knights assault your melta gunner with their huge mobility advantage? How are you going to kill the 2nd? What are you going to do about the last 3 sitting on objectives after they have eliminated everything on the board that can hurt them?

The problem with the Knight isn't that it is impossible to kill, the problem is that it makes the game mostly a formality. When you set 5 of them on the table, and you see your opponents list, victory/defeat will be a foregone conclusion in most cases. 70-80% of games tactics won't matter. Once the lists are built the outcome of the game has essentially been decided.

They aren't easy to kill.

However they are not hard to kill.

It will come down to lists.

If your list has sources of anti tank spread through it, you will be fine.

If it doesn't the knights can focus your Anti tank and ignore the rest.

That said you do not have to kill all the knights to win, if your opponent brings 5 knights, you probably only need to kill 3 to win depending on linebreaker, firstblood and slay the warlord. Considering a knights warlord is probably a knight, if you are playing certain armies picking the knight to take out is not that difficult, and you could turn 1 focus it down and get both firstblood and slay the warlord off the bat.

Knights are pretty mobile, so my advice in objective missions is to not place objectives near where the knight needs to be for linebreaker if you are playing against all knight, as your knight opponent has limited amounts of units, if they want to hold/contest objectives make sure they are not also getting linebreaker for doing so.

Almost every army has a build that can take on knights, the issue is that they are usually builds that are not taken in the current meta of anti tau/eldar.

I totally agree with tag8833. Killing one might not be an issue but go ahead try to take down 5 while it rains S9 AP1 melta pie plates on your side of the table. Not to mention they will be running towards you to hit you with a D-Strength in your face.

A 1500pt list is 4 Knights. Meaning you'd have to be playing 1850 to field 5, and then be completely useless against even a single flier.

Knights are good. They're not that good. You still need list balance.

blaktoof wrote:
Considering a knights warlord is probably a knight,

Obviously if they are using the Imperial Knights codex, this is the case.

However, that guy gains Seneschal Rank for free and has a 3++ instead of a 4++ on his pivotal shield. Focusing him is that much harder, and IMO best thing to do is make that Seneschal a paladin, park him in a corner, and laugh as you'll only ever be able to hit the front facing.

The thing about the shape of the knights is their front (and back) facings are enormous. The unit is so broad, drawing the "crossing lines" from corner to corner is less X shaped and more >< shaped.

There are all sorts of silly dumb things people can do if they use Knights as Allies, too. Personally I plan to get one and run him alongside my Dark Angels. 4 rolls on the divination table between my two librarians. If I get the Ignores Cover power, GG your troops are all dead. He takes several hull points of damage but doesn't go down? Good thing for me I'm planning on getting a few techmarines.

The state of 40k is really boring to me to play against. Honestly, it's more fun when you have to remove your own models because they die. The players around my area who have riptides rarely have to remove one from the table, let alone 2. If they lose, it's just because we rolled The Scouring and they weren't able to keep the opponent off enough objectives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
A 1500pt list is 4 Knights. Meaning you'd have to be playing 1850 to field 5, and then be completely useless against even a single flier.

Knights are good. They're not that good. You still need list balance.

"Weak to a flyer"

Not really. At best, the flyer can only shoot at it for 3 or 4 turns, and often will have to drop into hover mode to achieve that. The only flyers I see legitimately giving them fits are Crimson Hunters, which are pretty easy to blow up with the right support.

 SRSFACE wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
A 1500pt list is 4 Knights. Meaning you'd have to be playing 1850 to field 5, and then be completely useless against even a single flier.

Knights are good. They're not that good. You still need list balance.

"Weak to a flyer"

Not really. At best, the flyer can only shoot at it for 3 or 4 turns, and often will have to drop into hover mode to achieve that. The only flyers I see legitimately giving them fits are Crimson Hunters, which are pretty easy to blow up with the right support.

Very really. They cannot shoot back at a flyer sans heavy stubber, and Str4 never threatened any form of vehicle.

Vendettas will give them fits, as 1-2 turns of shooting is all it takes. Especially with two.

Stormravens have a 360degree assault cannon. As well as Missiles and an option for a multi-melta. It can also shoot two Knights each turn.

Storm talons, as well, have a 360degree assault cannon and option for Lascannon.

Crimson hunters, you already mentioned.

And what support are you bringing? In an army fielding 4-5 Knights (a scenario presented in this thread, and the one I was addressing) allows for no support at 1500, and 350pts of support at 1850 (unless you field 5 Errants, at which point no support).

 SRSFACE wrote:

Not really. At best, the flyer can only shoot at it for 3 or 4 turns, and often will have to drop into hover mode to achieve that. The only flyers I see legitimately giving them fits are Crimson Hunters, which are pretty easy to blow up with the right support.

Plan on having much support with 4 knights in a 1500pt game? I'd seriously love to see that actually fielded, squadron of vendettas would have a field day sitting in hover and nuking the beetlebacks.

So what you're saying is an army that goes all in on one strategy without support behind it isn't good?

Gee, go figure.

Good thing you can ally in 3 of them into a primary detachment of any other imperial army, or just field 3 of them and then ally in the imperial force so they are all still scoring units. You can field plenty of support if you choose to.

I played a game the other day against an Imperial Knight with my Eldar and I honestly didn't find it that bad. Perhaps it's because I was playing quite a strong, fast, shooty list, but I had few problems.

I took it down Turn 1 with a Fire Prism and Bright Lance on the front (where it turned its shield) and two Wave Serpents (usual build) in the flanks. I got an explodes with the Serpent Shield, which I guess was pretty lucky, but, even so, I'd have likely taken it down Turn 2. Best thing was that it exploded and took out a bunch of other guys with it.

It was the Melta variant and it only seems deadly when it gets into combat. It's a powerful melta gun, but at the end of the day, it's one shot. I'd have been a lot more scared of it if I was playing Orks or Nids, I reckon.

ncshooter426 wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:

Not really. At best, the flyer can only shoot at it for 3 or 4 turns, and often will have to drop into hover mode to achieve that. The only flyers I see legitimately giving them fits are Crimson Hunters, which are pretty easy to blow up with the right support.

Plan on having much support with 4 knights in a 1500pt game? I'd seriously love to see that actually fielded, squadron of vendettas would have a field day sitting in hover and nuking the beetlebacks.

Do you plan to run your hoard of Vendettas in every game, or just agree to list tailor in every game you play? This is an example of how the game has become a formality. If you bring 9 Vendetta, and he brings 4 Knights. You will win, and there is little reason to actually play the game. However, if you don't bring your 9 Vendettas, he will probably win, and there is little reason to actually play the game. Explain to me how Knights are ever going to be fun?

 SRSFACE wrote:
So what you're saying is an army that goes all in on one strategy without support behind it isn't good?

Gee, go figure.

Good thing you can ally in 3 of them into a primary detachment of any other imperial army, or just field 3 of them and then ally in the imperial force so they are all still scoring units. You can field plenty of support if you choose to.

That's not the point we were contending.

The problem with the Knight isn't that it is impossible to kill, the problem is that it makes the game mostly a formality. When you set 5 of them on the table, and you see your opponents list, victory/defeat will be a foregone conclusion in most cases. 70-80% of games tactics won't matter. Once the lists are built the outcome of the game has essentially been decided.

This was.

tag8833 wrote:

ncshooter426 wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:

Not really. At best, the flyer can only shoot at it for 3 or 4 turns, and often will have to drop into hover mode to achieve that. The only flyers I see legitimately giving them fits are Crimson Hunters, which are pretty easy to blow up with the right support.

Plan on having much support with 4 knights in a 1500pt game? I'd seriously love to see that actually fielded, squadron of vendettas would have a field day sitting in hover and nuking the beetlebacks.

Do you plan to run your hoard of Vendettas in every game, or just agree to list tailor in every game you play? This is an example of how the game has become a formality. If you bring 9 Vendetta, and he brings 4 Knights. You will win, and there is little reason to actually play the game. However, if you don't bring your 9 Vendettas, he will probably win, and there is little reason to actually play the game. Explain to me how Knights are ever going to be fun?

The point was demonstrating that for any extreme (4 knights) there is an equally extreme response (not quite 9...but a large chunk of fliers will work). And no, I wouldn't play - I have no interest in big games. If anything, 40k has gotten very boring to me over the last month after getting back into it,

 obsidiankatana wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
If I wasn't taking a Knight anyway I'd be looking at taking a pair of space marine muli-melta devestator squads. you can get 2 of em in a droppod for about 290 points. and they'd be reasonably solid in choices. even a single multimelta squad would be a threat to a Knight.

Coming out of a pod, one hit if your lucky. Impossible to kill a Knight with one meltagun.

yeah but I said multi melta devestator squads, I'm talking 2 squads with 4 multi meltas.

drop 1 squad on eaither side.

BrianDavion wrote:



yeah but I said multi melta devestator squads, I'm talking 2 squads with 4 multi meltas.

drop 1 squad on eaither side.

So you get an optimistic two hits. Both of which have to pen, not get invul'd, and roll 6's for result, and at least 2 of D3 to kill it.

I hate knights. Its just another big model that if its spammed on the table wins every game at the FLGS.

Aircraft have some advantages against them.
Keep your infantry hidden well.
They can still be killed by blobs of fearless models because they can't cut through them that fast.

jakl277 wrote:
I hate knights. Its just another big model that if its spammed on the table wins every game at the FLGS.

Aircraft have some advantages against them.
Keep your infantry hidden well.
They can still be killed by blobs of fearless models because they can't cut through them that fast.

The blobs have to be capable of hurting AV13 to charge the Knights, be aware of this. You cannot charge a vehicle you can't hurt.

BrianDavion wrote:

yeah but I said multi melta devestator squads, I'm talking 2 squads with 4 multi meltas.

drop 1 squad on eaither side.

They snap-fire on the turn they come in on the drop pod. And then just get erased by multiple AP3 pieplates. This doesn't seem like a workable strategy.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:



yeah but I said multi melta devestator squads, I'm talking 2 squads with 4 multi meltas.

drop 1 squad on eaither side.

So you get an optimistic two hits. Both of which have to pen, not get invul'd, and roll 6's for result, and at least 2 of D3 to kill it.

that 4++ invul save is only against ONE direction. which is why I specified TWO units. you want to flank it

BrianDavion wrote:

that 4++ invul save is only against ONE direction. which is why I specified TWO units. you want to flank it

Perfectly aware of what you typed. One of the two hits has a 50/50 chance to connect through a void shield, assuming you even GET two hits on 8 dice needing 6's (not likely). And you need a minimum of two pens to bring it down.

^^ yeah but they are snap firing.

8 shots * (1/6) chance to hit = 1.33 hits.

don't know the math, but lets say its likely you pen with your 1 hit.

Then 1/2 chance the shield is facing the shot and 1/2 he passes his save.

Then another 1/2 chance that you get an explodes result.

Then a 1/3 chance that you take an additional 3 hull points.

That's 4 hull points down, and the Knight in question is still just as angry and killy as ever.

Edit: Ninja'd. I was referring to BrianDavion.

For SM at least, I think we'll be seeing a massive increase of salamander and IF lists since they are the best equipped to take down IKs.

 astro_nomicon wrote:
^^ yeah but they are snap firing.

8 shots * (1/6) chance to hit = 1.33 hits.

don't know the math, but lets say its likely you pen with your 1 hit.

Then 1/2 chance the shield is facing the shot and 1/2 he passes his save.

Then another 1/2 chance that you get an explodes result.

Then a 1/3 chance that you take an additional 3 hull points.

That's 4 hull points down, and the Knight in question is still just as angry and killy as ever.

Edit: Ninja'd. I was referring to BrianDavion.

So a 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/3 chance of this happening. An 8% chance of this scenario taking place. Sure, you run those pods.

More reason to give melta bombs out.

Actually melta bomb Vanguard would be interesting.

2 Squads of Sternguard with 5 combi meltas cost as much as one Knight Errant. I don't think that's a coincidence because that's exactly what you're going to need to kill one

http://www.heresy-online.net/combatcalculator/shooting_vehicles.php?1=Attacker%20Group%201;5;1;4;8;1;;;;;;;;;;1;;;;;;;&d=Defender%20Group;1;12;4;;;&v=0

This is the math.

On average, if you droppod 5 meltaguns (meaning combi sterns or Command Squad), you're looking at 1.389 pens and a miniscule 0.139 glances for about 3 hull points. Significant damage but not enough to down one for just under 200 pts.

In addition, your pens average .463 Explodes! results, which forces the super heavy to roll a D3 which equals additional lost hull points. On average that's a little better than 2 hull points. So that's maybe 4 hull points through the ion shield.

And so if you combined that basically with a Lascannon Dev squad, without the Ion shield because you're forcing him to choose between the two facings, you could cause another pen on average plus one half a glance, for another 2.5 HP and a ~ 16% chance at another explodes! result.

http://www.heresy-online.net/combatcalculator/shooting_vehicles.php?1=Attacker%20Group%201;5;1;4;9;2;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;&d=Defender%20Group;1;13;;;;&v=0

So realistically, yeah, with a drop pod melta squad and a long range AT squad you could conceivably down one of these things on the turn the Meltavets arrive from reserves. One lascannon squad plus a squad of at -LEAST- 4 meltaguns is probably bare minimum for taking one out if your opponent has one. 2 squads of meltagun vets is probably a better idea because they can alphastrike, but if you're getting within 6" of a Knight, be aware that he's going to drop a 10" template centered around the Knight that could conceivably wipe out your meltagun unit.

So whatever meltagun units you use are going to die after the melta alphastrike. Lascannon units are obviously vulnerable to the Paladin's 2 Battlecannon shots which outrange it, which complicates the scenario somewhat. Realistically you're probably looking at 2 Meltagun units coming from reserves per knight, both of which will die compared to the cost of a single knight (so roughly comparable).

multimeltas are not an option because they are Heavy 1 and therefore do not have alpha strike ability. They also cannot move and therefore it is inconceivable that they could get within range to touch a knight.

I think you could down one reliably with a SM TAC list's AT. I would also consider putting meltaguns on your Bike squads and MMs on your ABs and Landspeeders.

So the knight is basically a cost that can and will be absorbed by TAC lists - most efficient scenario would call for the loss of at least one squad. It's once you start talking about primary detachments of between 3-5 knights that it becomes a real problem that needs to be solved. Keep in mind the Seneschal HQ gets a 3+ ion shield which makes all of this considerably more difficult.

Honestly, I dont see Eldar having too much trouble with these. With Serpents, Wraithknights, and Fire Dragons being good against just about anything and finding lots of facings, they should do rather well. Heck, the WK in tandem (or in that formation especially) they should handle them well in CC also.

If the Avatar could make it into combat somehow it would stand a great chance. Hawks would do similarly well but dont really want that close to nasty explosions.

Goobi2 wrote:
Honestly, I dont see Eldar having too much trouble with these. With Serpents, Wraithknights, and Fire Dragons being good against just about anything and finding lots of facings, they should do rather well. Heck, the WK in tandem (or in that formation especially) they should handle them well in CC also.

If the Avatar could make it into combat somehow it would stand a great chance. Hawks would do similarly well but dont really want that close to nasty explosions.

Well, the Avatar or a WK have no grenades. They shouldn't charge a Knight in cover since then the superheavy will go first.

Wraithknights with their stock guns are better off shooting it to death even if there's the 4++ invuln. At best you cause a hull point with the hammer of wrath before it gets to go, and land some simultaneous hits against it. You're hoping for mutually assured destruction.

Avatar is kind of in the same boat but has significantly less range and doesn't Hammer of Wrath at S10.

I haven't seen the codex. So just to be clear...

If a meltagun hits the Imperial Knight and rols a 15 for armor penetrations and then a 4 (+2 for AP 1 = 6) then what happens? Just more Hull points? That seems terrible.

I think they are OK but some balance needs to come in namely

Chaos needs one

Orks allowed to field stompas in standard games

No all knight armies as it is such crap and invalidates the point of taking infantry.

Wraithknights are similar and have the advantage of not becoming collosal bombs when destroyed.

tag8833 wrote:
Does anybody know a Tau player who runs only a single Riptide?

*cough* That would be me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:
I haven't seen the codex. So just to be clear...

If a meltagun hits the Imperial Knight and rols a 15 for armor penetrations and then a 4 (+2 for AP 1 = 6) then what happens? Just more Hull points? That seems terrible.

Explodes results on a superheavy take off an additional d3 hull points. (so anywhere from 2 to 4 as a result of that one shot).

 dementedwombat wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
Does anybody know a Tau player who runs only a single Riptide?

*cough* That would be me.

Also me

 Jancoran wrote:
I haven't seen the codex. So just to be clear...

If a meltagun hits the Imperial Knight and rols a 15 for armor penetrations and then a 4 (+2 for AP 1 = 6) then what happens? Just more Hull points? That seems terrible.

If you get an explodes result then you roll a D3 and it loses that many more hull points. So at 6 HP you need a minimum of two explodes to take it down.

 The Shadow wrote:
I played a game the other day against an Imperial Knight with my Eldar and I honestly didn't find it that bad. Perhaps it's because I was playing quite a strong, fast, shooty list, but I had few problems.

I took it down Turn 1 with a Fire Prism and Bright Lance on the front (where it turned its shield) and two Wave Serpents (usual build) in the flanks. I got an explodes with the Serpent Shield, which I guess was pretty lucky, but, even so, I'd have likely taken it down Turn 2. Best thing was that it exploded and took out a bunch of other guys with it.

It was the Melta variant and it only seems deadly when it gets into combat. It's a powerful melta gun, but at the end of the day, it's one shot. I'd have been a lot more scared of it if I was playing Orks or Nids, I reckon.

You didn't play it right I believe. Imperial knight doesn't go off the reg damage table. It's considered a super heavy.

If you get a penetrating hit. You don't roll on the damage table. You just take a hull point off. Once it runs out of hull points. It's blows up in a glorious burst of awesomeness.

You might wanna take a do over.

... Except as covered many times here already, superheavies take extra damage from explodes results on a pen. It does ignore a 1-5 result, but it still rolls.

How do you measure the side armor on those models? It's a very oddly shaped vehicle with what looks like a very small side facing.

One of the problems I'm trying to figure out is if Broadsides with HRR are worth taking, since HYMP would only ever glance the front armor. Knights are faster and with the shield can easily render the immobile broadsides useless. I never even thought I'd ever get lucky enough to get the HYMP to side armor.

Melta bombs if you can get a couple of them in a squad with some ablative wounds should do the job.

You ideally need WS4 to cut his D weapon to 1.5 hits (1.25) kills and 3+ armor for the stomps. Some of the better squads for delivering lots of melta bombs are sadly limited in size :(

Question: does haywire bounce off superheavies? I would assume it does, but I'm just checking.

Johnnytorrance wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
I played a game the other day against an Imperial Knight with my Eldar and I honestly didn't find it that bad. Perhaps it's because I was playing quite a strong, fast, shooty list, but I had few problems.

I took it down Turn 1 with a Fire Prism and Bright Lance on the front (where it turned its shield) and two Wave Serpents (usual build) in the flanks. I got an explodes with the Serpent Shield, which I guess was pretty lucky, but, even so, I'd have likely taken it down Turn 2. Best thing was that it exploded and took out a bunch of other guys with it.

It was the Melta variant and it only seems deadly when it gets into combat. It's a powerful melta gun, but at the end of the day, it's one shot. I'd have been a lot more scared of it if I was playing Orks or Nids, I reckon.

You didn't play it right I believe. Imperial knight doesn't go off the reg damage table. It's considered a super heavy.

If you get a penetrating hit. You don't roll on the damage table. You just take a hull point off. Once it runs out of hull points. It's blows up in a glorious burst of awesomeness.

You might wanna take a do over.

Nope. SHV get a damage table, and you do roll on it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dementedwombat wrote:
Question: does haywire bounce off superheavies? I would assume it does, but I'm just checking.

SHV receive no protection from haywire.

I'm pretty sure a squad of Centurions w/ grav guns would make short work of these guys.

Tyranids - Anything that flies has a STR of 6 > can damage it on vector strikes, Zoanthropes are lance, multiple units that can barrage it.

Chaos Space Marine - Heldrakes

Chaos Daemon - A large unit of plague bearers could kill it CC by stripping it down with Rust. Monstrous Creatures, etc.. etc..

Tau : Um lots

Eldar - Bright Lances

Dark Eldar - LoL

Necrons - um everything?

Orks ??????

Hollismason wrote:
I'm pretty sure a squad of Centurions w/ grav guns would make short work of these guys.

Tyranids - Anything that flies has a STR of 6 > can damage it on vector strikes, Zoanthropes are lance, multiple units that can barrage it.

Chaos Space Marine - Heldrakes

Chaos Daemon - A large unit of plague bearers could kill it CC by stripping it down with Rust. Monstrous Creatures, etc.. etc..

Tau : Um lots

Eldar - Bright Lances

Dark Eldar - LoL

Necrons - um everything?

Orks ??????

How can Heldrakes kill it? They do very inefficient damage output against it.

Monstrous creatures are bad, because I4 Destroyer.

Orks are fethed, lol.

Tau don't really have a lot against it.
HRR and HYMP are generally ineffective against AV13.
Skyrays take off 1.67 HPs with one markerlight, half of which gets saved.
Riptides with IA only get a single S9 AP2 hit, assuming Nova goes off and it doesn't get hot, unless your opponent manages to group them in the worst possible way.
HBC needs to Nova charge to do anything.
Suits have a decent chance, but really limits your elite slot unless you're taking enclave and have enough space for solo fusion suits.
Hammerheads just lack volume of fire to reliably get past that shield, still needing 4+ to pen none the less.

This is all while the Knights are steadily moving towards your army with weaponry that is really good at removing suits and Riptides.

Almost forgot. Piranha! Cheap and fast unit that produces two screens to slow down the Knights and they can have the firepower to take down a knight if you pay the points. 750 points for 15 melta shots in three units.

Grav cents are lucky to take down a LR in a round of shooting. They are too expensive/valuable to waste trying to shave HPs off of a superheavy.

One word. Melta. Double MM Landspeeders are an amazing investment as would be a pair of MM attack bikes. Also 5 man assault squads with meltabombs. Between the krak grenades and the meltabombs at only 85 points is a reasonable sacrifice to take a chunk out of a knight. Hell, two of em might be able to bring one down at half the points. Finish it off with the Speeders.

I don't think you can plant meltabombs on Walkers.

You can.

 Blackskull wrote:
I think they are OK but some balance needs to come in namely

Chaos needs one

Orks allowed to field stompas in standard games

No all knight armies as it is such crap and invalidates the point of taking infantry.

Wraithknights are similar and have the advantage of not becoming collosal bombs when destroyed.

As an ork I don't see it undermining all infantry, just making Lootas and Tankbustas more valueable in a meta fueled by these new vehicles that aren't AV14. Lootas will be needed to shoot it, maybe even tankbustas. I wouldn't think this means it undermines infantry.

I really think they meant these superheavies as a means to transport the D to some of the deathstars that need broken. When you think about whats being said in the "GW balance" article it seems they wanted these IK's to make just another facet to fight list building.

EDIT; Also a good reason to add boarding planks, the off chance that a trukk makes its way next to one is a valueable asset in terms of getting some infantry supplied powerklaw into a list. Also the point about tankbustas is made more valueable specifically when you talk about getting a larger chance to pen for the D3 extra hullpoints. Why would you just want to glance one?

For Orks Deff Rollas still work well.
Mekboy Junka is also a cheaper way of getting these, without competing for a Battlewagon slot.

I'm honestly finding Knights to be a surprisingly well balanced unit. Tough, but not overly so.

I've seen two mistakes here that need to be fixed:

1) Someone mentioned a divination librarian to give a knight ignores cover. Can't do that. The ignores cover power is for the caster's unit only, and he can't join a knight. No help there.

2) Someone said you can't charge a unit you can't hurt. This was FAQ'ed to be allowed. A bunch of S3 guardsmen could absolutely charge a knight to attempt to lock it in combat even if they didn't have any means of hurting it, and it's a valid tactic with termagaunts or fearless cultists and such.

 SRSFACE wrote:
Wraithknights with their stock guns are better off shooting it to death even if there's the 4++ invuln. At best you cause a hull point with the hammer of wrath before it gets to go, and land some simultaneous hits against it. You're hoping for mutually assured destruction.

Avatar is kind of in the same boat but has significantly less range and doesn't Hammer of Wrath at S10.

Well both options have higher initiatives tham the knight and should attack first. Smash will help the Avatar to get Pens in with AP1. The Knight does an average of 3 wounds to an Avatar in CC. 1 attack should hit, most results do 2-4 wounds. If by some magic the Avatar gets in fairly intact it may well win out in that combat.

Wraithknights can take the in coming fire much better and can easily avoid charging through terrain whilst doing damage with their guns. They would do much better working in tandem systematically taking on one knight at a time.

Goobi2 wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:
Wraithknights with their stock guns are better off shooting it to death even if there's the 4++ invuln. At best you cause a hull point with the hammer of wrath before it gets to go, and land some simultaneous hits against it. You're hoping for mutually assured destruction.

Avatar is kind of in the same boat but has significantly less range and doesn't Hammer of Wrath at S10.

Well both options have higher initiatives tham the knight and should attack first. Smash will help the Avatar to get Pens in with AP1. The Knight does an average of 3 wounds to an Avatar in CC. 1 attack should hit, most results do 2-4 wounds. If by some magic the Avatar gets in fairly intact it may well win out in that combat.

Wraithknights can take the in coming fire much better and can easily avoid charging through terrain whilst doing damage with their guns. They would do much better working in tandem systematically taking on one knight at a time.

You forget stomps, which remove both Avatar and Wraithknight on a 6.

The idea is to finish off it before it attacks, let alone stomps.

But assuming it does get to stomp, 5 out of 6 times it will be of minimal threat (especially to the wraithknights). 6's can happen, but they are far from being the most likely result.

Goobi2 wrote:
The idea is to finish off it before it attacks, let alone stomps.

But assuming it does get to stomp, 5 out of 6 times it will be of minimal threat (especially to the wraithknights). 6's can happen, but they are far from being the most likely result.

The stars need to align respectably for you to kill it before it attacks, let alone it hitting you back and stomping.

A dual knight charge has 12 S10 attacks. 7 hits, 2 at AP2. That looks to be 3.5 pens and a glance. It wouldnt be a stretch to assume one explodes is rolled on a 5+. With one explodes that is minimally 5 hp gone (but just as likely 6-7) without worrying about shooting the S10 guns.

The Avatar is the one needing the most alignment, especially to simply make it into combat. Assuming he is charged he should hit twice. Those two attacks have great odds of pening with the reroll. Here you will likely only have 1 explodes, but respectable odds for 2. Assuming 1, thats an average of 4 hp damage. The knight should hit 1.3333 times on the charge doing around 4 wounds.

Goobi2 wrote:
A dual knight charge has 12 S10 attacks. 7 hits, 2 at AP2. That looks to be 3.5 pens and a glance. It wouldnt be a stretch to assume one explodes is rolled on a 5+. With one explodes that is minimally 5 hp gone (but just as likely 6-7) without worrying about shooting the S10 guns.

The Avatar is the one needing the most alignment, especially to simply make it into combat. Assuming he is charged he should hit twice. Those two attacks have great odds of pening with the reroll. Here you will likely only have 1 explodes, but respectable odds for 2. Assuming 1, thats an average of 4 hp damage. The knight should hit 1.3333 times on the charge doing around 4 wounds.

Oh, dual Knight charge. Well sure, charge 370pts with 480.

I don't see your respectable odds for two explodes on the Avatar. AP2, unless I miss my mark. Even if he's AP1 that's one explodes and one other. So you killed have the Knight with him, after which your five wounds get hammered into. Anything by the Chainsword can't be invul'd, and then there's the Str10 Hammer of Wrath.

 Spellbound wrote:
2) Someone said you can't charge a unit you can't hurt. This was FAQ'ed to be allowed. A bunch of S3 guardsmen could absolutely charge a knight to attempt to lock it in combat even if they didn't have any means of hurting it, and it's a valid tactic with termagaunts or fearless cultists and such. [/quo9te]

Isnt a vehicle different from a unit in this regards.