http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=13700002

Games Workshop wrote:It’s a rare, almost unheard-of occurrence, but there have been times in Imperial history when a Space Marine Chapter has turned renegade. Censored, erased from all records and declared Excommunicate Traitoris, they are sentenced to death by any Imperial forces that come into contact with them. Such was the tragic fate of Chapter Master Sevastus Kranon and the Crimson Sabres, later to be known as the Crimson Slaughter.

Emphasis mine.

Almost unheard of in Imperial history?

Seems like a larger percentage of the Chaos Marines are Legionnaires than we thought.

At least it's a massive poke in the eye for those who propagate the idea that they'd turn at a whim.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oops, wrong forum. Requesting move.

Wasn't there almost an entire founding of that was sent by on crusade into the eye of terror and all but three chapters turned renegade?

Nearly a quarter of Space Marine Chapters ever founded have turned, including fully half of the First Founding Legions.

I'd chalk that up to GW's studio overinflating the purity...

... and, also, because most Imperial citizens can not name more than a handful of Chapters, as the homeworlds of those that go bad are generally wiped out. So the occurrence *is* almost unheard of... because those that do hear about it get killed, and it's not like there's a galactic news or data network to share this information on.

There are a few dozen named Renegade Chapters at least aren't there, which would work out at, roughly, 2-5% of all Chapters having gone renegade so, in those terms it is quite rare.

If what GW are saying now is that it is almost unheard of then all the material produced so far about Renegades seems to point to a different conclusion. That doesn't even cover individual Marines turning renegade from even such vaunted Chapters as the Ultramarines.

Being aware of Chaos, or Chaos space marines is a crime punishable by death.

The Lexicanum article lists 134 entries for Chaos Space Marines, including the original Traitor Legions, and that's not even getting into those Chapters, like the Souldrinkers, who are just renegades...

... seems it's a lot more common than GW thinks. 135 entries is more than 10% of all Chapters currently in existence.

Mind you, many of the traitor chapters probably endure while the Imperium fills their vacant spot.

1000 loyal chapters - 1 traitor = 999 loyal & 1 traitor

But then presumably the Imperium fills the spot.

1000 loyal chapters & 1 traitor.

Meaning that 135 entries =/= 13.5% of all Space Marines.

Especially since the 1000 chapter thing does not count traitors at all.

Right, which means that the count of Traitor Space Marine groups is currently equal to 13.5% of all Space Marine Chapters currently existing.

That's still a fething fairly frequent event. If 13.5% of the current total population of Earth suddenly dropped dead, people would freak the hell out, even if we'd have replaced them in just a few years with new people being born.

135/1135x100 = 11.89% of all space marine chapters to 2d.p. Not too far from 13.5% tbf...

Reading this, one might view it as GW "bigging up" the Marines. Like they do with any faction when said faction is in the spotlight.

I'm certainly not of the opinion that they turn particularly frequently, but I do think it happens more often than that quote would imply if taken literally.

I imagine it'd look more like GW wants if they named the other 480 or so Ultramarine derivatives and 190 or so Dark Angel derivatives that are supposedly out in the galaxy somewhere.

Isn't that about right? 50% are Smurf wannabes and 20% DA "successor chapters"? Is there a breakdown of where the other 30% comes from? Would that count, say, the Carcharadons, who are probably the remains of a loyalist Nightlord company?

IIRC, 60% of all "modern" SM Chapters are UM successors. The SW have none. If the DA are another 20%, that leaves 20% being from other sources, including the mystery-meat Chapters like the Blood Ravens.

There's supposedly 1000 SM Chapters in existence at any one point in time. There isn't an event where there were 1135 and 135 dropped away. There were 1000, and 135 went over to the other team, and then they replaced that 135 with a new 135 with new names and paint...

Even at ~12%, that's still fairly common.

 Psienesis wrote:
Right, which means that the count of Traitor Space Marine groups is currently equal to 13.5% of all Space Marine Chapters currently existing.

That's still a fething fairly frequent event. If 13.5% of the current total population of Earth suddenly dropped dead, people would freak the hell out, even if we'd have replaced them in just a few years with new people being born.

I'm pretty sure 1000%+ of the earth's population dropped dead over the course of 2000 years of humanity's history. With the Imperium, 135 chapters turning over the course of 10,000 years might not be that many depending on how often new chapters are founded. Unless I'm making an overlooked logical misstep here (I'm sleepy and am about to head off for a nap)

...that said, it's 135 warbands, not chapters, right? Not all of them are cases of entire chapters going renegade, I think. Hell, pretty sure at least one fourth of those are warbands that broke off from the original traitor legions, if not more (it was only recently with the Abyssal Crusade in 6th Edition that GW started emphasizing or ret-conning various renegade warbands to have come from places other than the original traitor legions)

Well, there's not that many Foundings of Space Marines. It's happened less than 30 times in 10,000 years. That's, like, rare-comet appearance rare.

According to the list on Lexicanum, most of those Traitor Space Marines are from unknown origins, so it's impossible to say where they originate from, at least without digging into the individual articles on each entry, which will take a whole lotta time I don't have.

 Troike wrote:
Reading this, one might view it as GW "bigging up" the Marines. Like they do with any faction when said faction is in the spotlight.

EVERY ARMY SUCKS EXCEPT THIS ONE AND IF IT WEREN'T FOR EVERY OTHER FORCE TRYING TO KILL IT THEY WOULD ALL BE CRUSHED!

The Badab war must be nearly unheard of, then.

The Badab War is not a common occurance.

@Psienesis, I think a good number of Chapters are created independently from foundings. That part I am unsure of, however.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Lexicanum article lists 134 entries for Chaos Space Marines, including the original Traitor Legions, and that's not even getting into those Chapters, like the Souldrinkers, who are just renegades...

... seems it's a lot more common than GW thinks. 135 entries is more than 10% of all Chapters currently in existence.

Except there's a thousand Chapters on average in existence at any one time, and traitor warbands don't have a habit of disappearing. For all we know, each century a chapter might fall to Chaos as more Chapters are created and more are destroyed in the line of duty. Their rate of falling to Chaos is fairly low, just that it ends up stacking pretty damn high.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The Lexicanum article lists 134 entries for Chaos Space Marines, including the original Traitor Legions, and that's not even getting into those Chapters, like the Souldrinkers, who are just renegades...

... seems it's a lot more common than GW thinks. 135 entries is more than 10% of all Chapters currently in existence.

Except there's a thousand Chapters on average in existence at any one time, and traitor warbands don't have a habit of disappearing. For all we know, each century a chapter might fall to Chaos as more Chapters are created and more are destroyed in the line of duty. Their rate of falling to Chaos is fairly low, just that it ends up stacking pretty damn high.

But you also have to consider the rate at which Chaos warbands are lost to the warp/battle/mutation/demons/other warbands...

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The Lexicanum article lists 134 entries for Chaos Space Marines, including the original Traitor Legions, and that's not even getting into those Chapters, like the Souldrinkers, who are just renegades...

... seems it's a lot more common than GW thinks. 135 entries is more than 10% of all Chapters currently in existence.

Except there's a thousand Chapters on average in existence at any one time, and traitor warbands don't have a habit of disappearing. For all we know, each century a chapter might fall to Chaos as more Chapters are created and more are destroyed in the line of duty. Their rate of falling to Chaos is fairly low, just that it ends up stacking pretty damn high.

But you also have to consider the rate at which Chaos warbands are lost to the warp/battle/mutation/demons/other warbands...

Not really that often actually. It's more common for them to stick around for an incredibly long time, or be rolled into one of the welcoming legions like the Black Legion.
(Or other warbands like the Red Corsairs.)

It’s a rare, almost unheard-of occurrence, but there have been times in Imperial history when a Space Marine Chapter has turned renegade. Censored, erased from all records and declared Excommunicate Traitoris

one might wonder if there is a relation

Exactly, if a squad or company of Space Marines goes rogue who's to say they don't just fold themselves into an existing warband?

It seems to me that it's just Chapters that are declared "Excommunicate Traitoris", I'd imagine individuals are just stricken from Imperial records.

Games Workshop wrote:It’s a rare, almost unheard-of occurrence, but there have been times in Imperial history when a Space Marine Chapter has turned renegade.

This sounds like an in-universe statement. Generally, it is almost unheard of that a Marine chapter falls, because all records are destroyed and anyone who knows about it is killed. Of course we know about it, because we have the advantage of an outside vantage point. I find that GW differs from other companies fluff writers in this regard, often presenting things from the view of certain in-universe sources instead of from an impartial omniscient observer. This often leads to confusion, but allows them to offer multiple conflicting views of the same universe.

Yep, it's pretty hard for Marines to go rogue. Generally, not counting individual people, large swaths of marines turn to chaos probably only once every few hundred years. The vast bulk of Chaos marines are legionaries.

It is Propaganda to ease the minds of the populous

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

Games Workshop wrote:It’s a rare, almost unheard-of occurrence, but there have been times in Imperial history when a Space Marine Chapter has turned renegade. Censored, erased from all records and declared Excommunicate Traitoris, they are sentenced to death by any Imperial forces that come into contact with them. Such was the tragic fate of Chapter Master Sevastus Kranon and the Crimson Sabres, later to be known as the Crimson Slaughter.

Emphasis mine.

Re-emphasized.

Its rare for an entire chapter to turn traitor, but individual marines or small groups would be more common.

The last survivor(s) of an ill-fated mission who become disillusioned with their chapter and turn their back on their oaths, a marine who feels as though his self-less mission is unfair and decides to strike out and gain power for himself, a grudge with some other Imperial organization or individual turns into a blood-feud that eventually leads to an otherwise loyal individual becoming a renegade, etc...

Honestly, I don't think we have the hard numbers to determine if SM Fall more or less frequently than they 'should'.

If they did fall more frequently than would be expected, I'd say it's not because they are in some way more susceptible to chaos corruption (though I do find that idea interesting), I'd say it would be because they are a bigger target. Chaos will be trying a lot harder to corrupt SMs than regular imperials, because each SM that Falls, is a little victory. Not just "one more Super Solider for our army, one less for our Enemy" but it is also a psychological / ideological victory. "Even your greatest champions can fall to our dark temptations! What hope do you have?". That sort of thing.

I think its referencing entire chapters that fall, not like squads or companies etc.

That happens a lot more often I guess and they then go on to for warbands of their own.

 Grey Templar wrote:


Re-emphasized.

Its rare for an entire chapter to turn traitor, but individual marines or small groups would be more common.

The last survivor(s) of an ill-fated mission who become disillusioned with their chapter and turn their back on their oaths, a marine who feels as though his self-less mission is unfair and decides to strike out and gain power for himself, a grudge with some other Imperial organization or individual turns into a blood-feud that eventually leads to an otherwise loyal individual becoming a renegade, etc...

What Templar said

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=13700002

Games Workshop wrote:It’s a rare, almost unheard-of occurrence, but there have been times in Imperial history when a Space Marine Chapter has turned renegade. Censored, erased from all records and declared Excommunicate Traitoris, they are sentenced to death by any Imperial forces that come into contact with them. Such was the tragic fate of Chapter Master Sevastus Kranon and the Crimson Sabres, later to be known as the Crimson Slaughter.

Emphasis mine.

Almost unheard of in Imperial history?

Seems like a larger percentage of the Chaos Marines are Legionnaires than we thought.

At least it's a massive poke in the eye for those who propagate the idea that they'd turn at a whim.
.

emphasis mine. this is talking ab out entire chapters turning renegade: it's much for common for it to happen on isolated squad level type missions with Chaotic (Or sometimes just really valuable) artefacts pressent

There's a line in the wiki where their position as independent super humans means that Space Marines must always be careful lest they fall to their own pride and hubris, etc. Generally they undergo a lot of conditioning and psychological profiling to avoid this, but the sheer nature of their position as elevated super heros that function independent of other organizations makes them targets for corruption.

...not that I know exactly where the wiki got that from.

The Badab War isn't a common occurrence. It was stated to have been the biggest astartes vs astartes battle since the Heresy (which means it's a nearly one-of-a-kind occurrence) and technically only one chapter fell to Chaos during it, anyways. In this case, the wiki includes a line "A man with a personality like Huron's should have never been allowed to be chapter master in the first place" (paraphrased) with wording indicating that the Imperpium/Astartes usually try to look out for that sort of thing, but again it's a wiki.

I'm going off of memory here since I don't have time to flip through descriptions of all 135 warbands either but my memory is that most of those descriptions include the words "off-shoot/warband of (insert an original traitor legion here)"

Perhaps the point is that it's rarer for an entire chapter to just go "Ah, Feth it" and go renegade, than say, just a squad or company going renegade. I think it's considered an exceptional event for the full thousand marines to all decide at once that Chaos is groovy.

Plus, it's probably only in there to make GW's new thing to sell even more of a special snowflake. "Hey guys, you've bought the Chaos marines codex, but these guys are totally different! We promise!"

That makes more sense if they are restricting the news to *entire* Chapters falling. Yes, that's a rare event. For anything less than that, though, it's a fairly common occurrence, all things considered.

You'd think the Inquisition would take more precautions if that had been the case.

As it is they seem to prefer trying to clean up any mess that does appear.

The Astartes Chapters are granted lots of autonomy, for the most part, and the Inquisition doesn't get to throw agents around when and wherever they like... it's a big galaxy, can't watch all of it all of the time.

TiamatRoar wrote:
The Badab War isn't a common occurrence. It was stated to have been the biggest astartes vs astartes battle since the Heresy (which means it's a nearly one-of-a-kind occurrence)

Where does it say that? The original IA article stated it was the largest Astartes rebellion since the Fourth Quadrant Rebellion which had only ended 120 years earlier. (Though a lot of other articles erroneously referred to the Badab War as the Fourth Quadrant Rebellion)

I'd go so far as to say that even just a full "squad" of marines going rogue is incredibly rare, relatively speaking. It's hard enough for one person whose basically been brainwashed and mind-fethed for most of his existence into unconditionally loving the Imperium to become corrupted into turning loyalties. The idea that ten individuals could simultaneously do it is pretty out there (though it does happen).

As well, what are the general reasons for a Marine to go rogue? Chaos usually snares them with pride, doubting the Imperium and themselves, and bloodlust. The latter point is something that is hard to stamp out, and could indeed infect an entire squad (because they'd seen some gak, or whatever), but the first two? It's hard for an entire squad to be corrupted by pride simultaneously, or by doubt. Especially with Chaplains around, who regularly wander the chapter addressing those two things.

With only a thousand marines to look after, it seems unlikely that a Chaplain would fail to notice an entire squad simultaneously falling to their pride, or having doubts, or even becoming obsessed with bloodshed.

This article is relevant. It's an article all about renegade Marines. There's some interesting stuff in there.

Anyway, reading through said article, I do get the impression that whole Chapters going renegade isn't quite "nearly unheard of", which, to me, is putting it a bit strongly. There's references to a four different forces being considered as favoured responses against a rogue Chapter, depending on why said Chapter has gone rogue. To me, this implies that it's happened enough times for these forces to have been used against said Chapters multiple times. There's also this highly relevant quote:

It is not recorded exactly how many chapters have been purged in this way, as all record of their existence will be expunged upon their defeat. It can be estimated however, that as many as a dozen chapters may have been completely destroyed and subsequently deleted from the records, while a small number of others have been declared Excommunicatus, but are still at large somewhere in the galaxy.

Seems to imply that whilst rare, whole Chapters going rogue has certainly happened a fair few times. Also note that records being expunged is noted here as a reason for us not getting a clear picture.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Chaos usually snares them with pride, doubting the Imperium and themselves, and bloodlust. The latter point is something that is hard to stamp out, and could indeed infect an entire squad (because they'd seen some gak, or whatever), but the first two? It's hard for an entire squad to be corrupted by pride simultaneously, or by doubt. Especially with Chaplains around, who regularly wander the chapter addressing those two things.

With only a thousand marines to look after, it seems unlikely that a Chaplain would fail to notice an entire squad simultaneously falling to their pride, or having doubts, or even becoming obsessed with bloodshed.

However, Chaos can also corrupt people quite quickly. Marines could potentially be corrupted before they were able to make it back to the Chaplain's loving arms.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

Games Workshop wrote:It’s a rare, almost unheard-of occurrence, but there have been times in Imperial history when a Space Marine Chapter has turned renegade.

Yeah, the usual way is like when those Space Wolves decided to join the Red Corsairs, because… well, they had better beer and funny pirate hats or something. I know, pretty petty reason, but remember, we are talking Space Wolves. That event was not really described as rare or almost unheard of.

Interestingly, a small trapped crew of Space Wolves deciding to rather join the Corsairs than die was literally a one of a kind occasion.

Nowhere else has any other Space Wolves doing the same been mentioned.

You're speculating rather wildly there by implying it would be common.

The Wolf of Fernis was one of Hurons greatest victories because he was able to corrupt the crew. And some chapters are deemed rouge for political reasons such as the Blood Knights who still consider themselves loyal to the Imperium and continue to defend it

I'm just going over the Lexicanum list right now, and to those who are using the number 135 from those lists needs to be very careful.

I would say it's just a bad idea to try and skim the broader list and use that in this discussion.

Because I do have the time to go through each article right now, I've started doing just that, and I've only just hit the 6th warband on the list, the so-called Apocalypse Company, I've already run into problems. Namely:

The Apocalypse Company has the same armour colours and symbol as the Bleak Brotherhood.

Followed by this in the Bleak Brotherhood section:

...noted as a possible faction of the Warp Ghosts.

Followed by this from the Warp Ghosts:

The Warp Ghosts have the same colour scheme as the Death Mongers...

Followed by this from the Death Mongers:

Originally known as the Brothers of the Anvil, they were among the thirty Chapters sentenced to the Abyssal Crusade.

So you have to be very careful with this "135" number. In fact I bet it's totally useless, and the actual number is a GREAT DEAL less than that. The Lex lists splinter warbands from the original legions separately, and lists duplicates, such as listing each of the Black Legion, Luna Wolves, and Sons of Horus. Remember, the Lex's-- and other wiki's-- job is not to really compile and organize and adjudicate on all the different things GW has published over the years, but simply to act as a collection service of all that info, from which we must then draw our own conclusions, organizing it all in whatever way we might to fit our version of the storyline. There are undoubtedly quite a lot of these conflicting paint jobs and blurbs and other things from various publications by GW which have been presented on the Lex separately and then simply linked together so we know what the issues are and can "solve" them ourselves.

I'm still going through this thing.

EDIT: Also, look at the Lex list of Renegade Chapters.... Only nine. In the context of 10,000 years that is quite a good number if it is reliable-- you can't simply go "9/1,009=n%" either. This total comes over the entire history of Space Marine Chapters, a vast swathe of history in which many more chapters have come and gone for entirely different reasons (destroyed homeworlds, lost in the warp, et cetera). So that would be a greatly inflated percentage itself. And the nine includes the Knights of Blood, as well as a splinter of the Astral Claws, and puts the Relictors in twice, and doesn't include the Iron Drakes or many of the other Chapters which went on Penitent Crusades into the EoT, only to turn once there.

These lists are just not very good resources taken on their own. You have to dig a lot deeper if you want to bring any good info to the discussion.

Most of the "entire chapter" turning traitor was from the Abyssal Crusade when most of those turned, other than that it's been the Astral Claws, and now the Crimson Sabres. So yes it's rare for an entire Chapter to turn, groups here and there are more common.

Given the general level of autonomy that marines enjoy, its probably quite commonplace that they perform acts that would elicit a censure of some kind. the severity of the censure might vary, but its not difficult to imagine marines respond to a threat, wipe out the threat, and then find out that they just killed the sector governors best friend. marines have also been known to go overboard, massacring millions when there were just a few traitors.

Outside sources would view them as being excessive, and when marines being an independent bunch tell the inquisitor or local governor to stick it where the sun don't shine, an otherwise loyal chapter is declared renegade, and then they do indeed turn traitor. How else would they view it, the marines have just done their duty, ended a threat with extreme prejudice, are censured for it, which is nothing but an indication that the conspiracy is far more wide ranging than they originally thought.....

Many many cases of marines being declared traitors could probably be avoided if there was some oversight, but since the chapters are girlymans ideas, thats not going to happen...

You people seem to forget that chapters don't always fall as one. (no offense meant) Individual marines fall often, and even companies falling whilst the rest of the chapter stays 'pure' is nowhere near unheard of. And yes, the Badab war was a once in several eons occurrence.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Interestingly, a small trapped crew of Space Wolves deciding to rather join the Corsairs than die was literally a one of a kind occasion.

Nowhere else has any other Space Wolves doing the same been mentioned.

Svane Vulfbad wants to have a word with you.

Orkdom basically beat me to my point. Even if you were to use the Lex in this way, many "renegade warbands" left the Traitor Legions, not the modern Imperial Astartes.

The 4e Chaos Space Marine Codex says that the Ordo Malleus believe that as many as fifty Space Marine Chapters have fully fallen to Chaos since the Horus Heresy.
So that really isn't a lot, only about one every two hundred years.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jape wrote:
Orkdom basically beat me to my point. Even if you were to use the Lex in this way, many "renegade warbands" left the Traitor Legions, not the modern Imperial Astartes.

And those Warbands don't necessarily represent a whole Chapter turned.
The 4e Codex mentions how two Fallen Chapters split into dozens of Warbands.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Lexicanum article lists 134 entries for Chaos Space Marines, including the original Traitor Legions, and that's not even getting into those Chapters, like the Souldrinkers, who are just renegades...

... seems it's a lot more common than GW thinks. 135 entries is more than 10% of all Chapters currently in existence.

Those are warbands. Each entry is not a chapter turned traitor. The vast, vast majority of those are original traitor legion SMs that have split up and recoalested into roving pillagers. For example the Festizio warband would be like 50 Black Legionaires, 40 World Eaters, 40 Iron Warriors etc. With other bands of Alpha Legionaries and Night Lords coming going depending on how they feel about what's going on and if there's good power grabbing/backstabbing opportunites. After The Scouring The traitor Legions kept breaking down into smaller and more mixed groups. They're basically tribals now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Animus wrote:
The 4e Chaos Space Marine Codex says that the Ordo Malleus believe that as many as fifty Space Marine Chapters have fully fallen to Chaos since the Horus Heresy.
So that really isn't a lot, only about one every two hundred years.

I don't have it in front of me but I believe it actually says there have been 50 incidents, which includes incidents of 1 marine turning. Typically, it's going to be in the 1 squad area.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Interestingly, a small trapped crew of Space Wolves deciding to rather join the Corsairs than die was literally a one of a kind occasion.

Nowhere else has any other Space Wolves doing the same been mentioned.

Svane Vulfbad wants to have a word with you.

Okay, a crew + one guy.

Still not the masses that you enjoy throwing around.

That's from a single Chapter, out of one thousand, of Space Marines... a First Founding Chapter, too. Kind of a big deal.

Aye, the loss of both Vulfbad and the Wolf of Fenris were -very- big deals.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Okay, a crew + one guy.

None of which being portrayed as something out of the ordinary. Hence, those are merely a few examples, not ultra-rare exceptions .
I mean, it is not like the Red Corsairs even had to use any kind of stratagem, or daemonic influence, or warp-based mind-control, or manipulation, or anything really. Board the ship, kill the captain, and BANG!, every space wolf that is a Chaos wannabe just comes out of the closet. If there was no manipulation involved, no conspiracy, why would that particular ship be full of Chaos wannabe just dying to turn their cloak around, and every other ship having only paragon of loyalty that would rather die than betray, like any good Imperial Guard ?

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I don't have it in front of me but I believe it actually says there have been 50 incidents.

Nah, it says Chapters.

"the lords of the Ordo Malleus believe that as many as fifty Space Marine Chapters have fully fallen to the wiles of Chaos since the end of the Horus Heresy."

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Two known cases in all of imperial, Space Wolf, and objective history of SW turning, for a total number of twenty or so marines at most = SW turn all the time at the slightest provocatio

Yeah, I am not convinced.

By that logic, I can say that dropping a normal pencil is enough to make a Battle Sister squad panic and run in mindless, pant-wetting terror, since they have been known to retreat once or twice in lore. (And if you want to go down the game mechanics route, they are even subject to Fear and can flee all the way from the enemy right off the table.)

Your arguments have more holes than substance.

Are you trolling, or is it just some butthurt vendetta over Marines getting more love from GW?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
None of which being portrayed as something out of the ordinary. Hence, those are merely a few examples, not ultra-rare exceptions .
I mean, it is not like the Red Corsairs even had to use any kind of stratagem, or daemonic influence, or warp-based mind-control, or manipulation, or anything really. Board the ship, kill the captain, and BANG!, every space wolf that is a Chaos wannabe just comes out of the closet. If there was no manipulation involved, no conspiracy, why would that particular ship be full of Chaos wannabe just dying to turn their cloak around, and every other ship having only paragon of loyalty that would rather die than betray, like any good Imperial Guard ?

Yeah, you are right, I see it now! You are a genius and I love you.

Ah, finally, you have come to your sense. Also, modifying the text you quote is uncool.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
By that logic, I can say that dropping a normal pencil is enough to make a Battle Sister squad panic and run in mindless, pant-wetting terror, since they have been known to retreat once or twice in lore.

They have been known to retreat one or twice, yes, but not exactly in “mindless, pant-wetting terror”. Every force of the Imperium has been known to retreat, and the Sisters not any more than others. While Marines has been described as falling to chaos way, way more often than Imperial Guards or Sisters. And we just mention an occasion where they do so without any good reason at all.

Animus wrote:
The 4e Chaos Space Marine Codex says that the Ordo Malleus believe that as many as fifty Space Marine Chapters have fully fallen to Chaos since the Horus Heresy.
So that really isn't a lot, only about one every two hundred years.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jape wrote:
Orkdom basically beat me to my point. Even if you were to use the Lex in this way, many "renegade warbands" left the Traitor Legions, not the modern Imperial Astartes.

And those Warbands don't necessarily represent a whole Chapter turned.
The 4e Codex mentions how two Fallen Chapters split into dozens of Warbands.

That was my point in backing what Orkdom said. 135 warbands do not equal 135 chapters. Hell a 'CSM' warband could be one marine leading a cult of nutters.

Animus wrote:
The 4e Chaos Space Marine Codex says that the Ordo Malleus believe that as many as fifty Space Marine Chapters have fully fallen to Chaos since the Horus Heresy.
So that really isn't a lot, only about one every two hundred years.

How often are SM chapters created ? Is that about… maybe once every two hundred years ?

Depends. There's been a total of 26 Foundings, including the one that pre-dates the Heresy in all of the 40K setting.

Sometimes, they happen millennia apart... other times just a few centuries, but the actual dates of some Foundings are not known, and in some cases, they assume a Founding happened (because a later Founding has a date and an assigned number), but they have no record of what Chapters were created in that Founding.

Only when the "Plot" calls for it.....

Or when someone dreams it up.

 Psienesis wrote:
There's been a total of 26 Foundings, including the one that pre-dates the Heresy in all of the 40K setting.

So, that means about 2 chapters from each founding went traitor. How many chapters per founding, though, that is the big question ! To get 1000 chapters, it would mean at least about 40 chapters per founding, but we never get a founding with more than 10 new chapters described.

So, having gone through all the warbands listed on the Lex, here are some more detailed numbers for perusal....

Of 134 Warbands:
fully 51 are listed as splinters from 1st Founding Legions;
23 listed are results of the Abyssal Crusade;
2 herald from the Badab War/Astral Claws;
2 listed are 21st Founding;
20 are mentioned as being entire chapters (not including those above);
2 were single companies;
7 on the list were apparent duplicates of other chapters;
6 are clearly mixed warbands ( one even mentions Kroot mercs);
1 appeared still to believe itself loyal;
and a total of 18 had little or no description at all to go on.

Make of all that what you will.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
None of which being portrayed as something out of the ordinary. Hence, those are merely a few examples, not ultra-rare exceptions .
I mean, it is not like the Red Corsairs even had to use any kind of stratagem, or daemonic influence, or warp-based mind-control, or manipulation, or anything really. Board the ship, kill the captain, and BANG!, every space wolf that is a Chaos wannabe just comes out of the closet. If there was no manipulation involved, no conspiracy, why would that particular ship be full of Chaos wannabe just dying to turn their cloak around, and every other ship having only paragon of loyalty that would rather die than betray, like any good Imperial Guard ?

Yeah, you are right, I see it now! You are a genius and I love you.

Ah, finally, you have come to your sense. Also, modifying the text you quote is uncool.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
By that logic, I can say that dropping a normal pencil is enough to make a Battle Sister squad panic and run in mindless, pant-wetting terror, since they have been known to retreat once or twice in lore.

They have been known to retreat one or twice, yes, but not exactly in “mindless, pant-wetting terror”. Every force of the Imperium has been known to retreat, and the Sisters not any more than others. While Marines has been described as falling to chaos way, way more often than Imperial Guards or Sisters. And we just mention an occasion where they do so without any good reason at all.

I did not misrepresent your argument, I merely summed it up to hopefully make you see where the hole is. You are literally taking the only two examples mentioned in every single source there is and using them as the basis for some crazy fanfic where this is proof of SW falling to the left and right.

This is comparable to my SoB scenario. Or, I could use Sabathiel as proof that Sisters fall really easily too, since Sabathiel incidents are roughly as common (A total number difference of a single incident in all of history). TCG or not, Sabathiel is just as 'canon' as Vulfbad is.

I am starting to suspect my assessment was correct.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Are you trolling, or is it just some butthurt vendetta over Marines getting more love from GW?

And I really cba to argue with trolls.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I did not misrepresent your argument, I merely summed it up to hopefully make you see where the hole is.

Just make clear what is your words and what is mine.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
You are literally taking the only two examples mentioned in every single source there is and using them as the basis for some crazy fanfic where this is proof of SW falling to the left and right.

Because of the way it is written. But hey, you headcanon does not make much more sense, does it ?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
This is comparable to my SoB scenario.

I do not know. Please give a precise reference to an occurrence of Sisters retreating, and I will see if it seems to describe this as a common occurrence, and if the reasons for retreating were as non-existent as the reason the wolves had to turn their cloak.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
TCG or not, Sabathiel is just as 'canon' as Vulfbad is.

Yeah, and in both case, we have no context at all about in which circumstances they fell. For the Wolf of Fenris, however, we have a very nice explanation : they choose to betray rather than die. Which is pretty weak, really, for what are supposed to be very loyal elite troops. Especially given the nature of the foe they are surrendering to.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I am starting to suspect my assessment was correct.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Are you trolling, or is it just some butthurt vendetta over Marines getting more love from GW?

So, which one is it ? Am I trolling, or is this a butthurt vendetta ?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
And I really cba to argue with trolls.

Cba ? What does that mean ?

It means 'can't be bothered'.

Oh, okay, thanks.
Why the final a, though ? Why is it not cbb or something ?

The a stands for arsed. Furyou milko was being polite.

Traitor is a term of perspective.

Was Luft Huron a traitor? He was cleansing the Badab sector of xenos encroachment and his resources were being stripped from him. He was doing what he felt was best for the Imperium. Initially, anyway.

So of the original 17 legions, 7 were recorded as turning to Chaos, 2 were expunged for whatever mysterious reasons, and the other 8 remained loyal. After the Heresy, the original Space Marine legions were fragmented into chapters...I believe that the legions numbered in the ten(s) of thousands, so let's just say 10 chapters could have been created per legion (or perhaps many less depending on their numbers after the Heresy, whose to say).

But just based on the numbers from the Heresy, you could extrapolate that post-Heresy, there were roughly 70 chapters worth of Chaos Space Marines in terms of numbers. I know the numbers would fluctuate dramatically from this estimate due to the devastation of the Heresy, but since none of the original legions disappeared after the war, there was at least a fair amount of troops left over. Now the chapters were broken apart to prevent any supreme leader from (a) turning to Chaos and (b) using his might to sway large percentages of the army to go with him. I am guessing that is why you don't see a whole lot of entire chapters going over to Chaos. Chaos marines aren't referred to as chapters, just warbands, and due to the nature of Chaos itself there isn't that same type of defined structure you see with set chapters, and marines maintaining allegiance with the same throughout their lives.

That being said I don't see anything indicative in the fluff post-Heresy to suggest that marines don't fall to Chaos at a similar rate that they did before; their lives are not noticeably different (aka "Only War"). I just think GW doesn't feel like it's necessary to flesh out the reasoning behind the traitor marines since they often serve in a villain-sue role to juxtapose against the Imperial forces.

EDIT: after looking up numbers, it seems like legions varied wildly post-Heresy, from the small end at 7,000 to over 100,000 marines. Still, my example was more about the number of Chaos Marines that would be wandering around which could accept in recruits from the ranks of loyalists.

Twenty Legions. 9 Fell, 2 were destroyed.

Fell: Luna Wolves, Word Bearers, Death Guard, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, World-Eaters, Night Lords, Emperor's Children and the Thousand Sons.

Legions II and XI were purged.

 Psienesis wrote:
Twenty Legions. 9 Fell, 2 were destroyed.

Fell: Luna Wolves, Word Bearers, Death Guard, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, World-Eaters, Night Lords, Emperor's Children and the Thousand Sons.

Legions II and XI were purged.

should have been more careful reading the stupid wiki article, thank you Psienesis.

Okay, so even more Chaos Marines at the end of the Heresy (and more Loyalists too). Luckily the ratio is still pretty similar to what I was getting at in my, albeit very rough, example.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Yeah, and in both case, we have no context at all about in which circumstances they fell.

Miriael fell after being captured and tortured by the Emperor's Children.

Though she's not a studio character, first appearing in a third-party collectible card game.

Just as canon and noncanon as anything else.

 Psienesis wrote:
Though she's not a studio character, first appearing in a third-party collectible card game.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Just as canon and noncanon as anything else.

I propose that both of you repeat those messages a few hundred times more, just in case someone is not aware of it yet .

Good news, Haraldus, you had me ar… I mean, bothered enough to look for more stuff on Sabathiel. It appears she is actually described as “the only Sister who joined chaos”, and that happened only after being captured and tortured by Emperor's Children. So… yeah, it still make the wolves, and marines in general, look bad for turning even before the Red Corsairs even finish to conquer the ship .
I found a YouTube video of someone reading The Invitation, one of the two sources ever mentioning her. I will listen to it, if I can understand the English (recorded oral English makes me a sad panda ).

Also, this is lulworthy :
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/index.php?title=Talk%3AMiriael_Sabathiel&diff=201950&oldid=201624
. MASSIVE bs !

I like the character of Sabathiel, but as she doesn't appear in a Codex,even in oblique mention, or in anything other than a CCG, a comic book, and a short story, I tend to not use her as an example of, well, anything.

Because, otherwise, Terminators do back-flips and surf on Rhinos.

 Psienesis wrote:
Because, otherwise, Terminators do back-flips and surf on Rhinos.

Things like this really shows the importance of the headcanon.

One could hardly fit in all the fluff of 40K into the same setting, since it does not match.

Of course. Headcanon is a totally different thing than basing some sort of consistent "vibe" for a given faction on what's presented in the "core" publications (Codices, rulebooks, IA, CJ, WD, etc.) and adding in stuff from external sources if, and only if, the "core" books are just silent on the subject.

I would argue that SoB would become more interesting if they actually did fall occasionally, but this was so extremely hushed down so it is not written anywhere. (Playing on the fact that many 40K fluff texts are supposed to be from an in-universe perspective.)

But oh well.

Eh, I think that having 2 groups in the setting that have no members ever willingly fallen makes them interesting, especially since they are kind of on the opposite ends of the scale.

On the one hand, you have the SoB, who do what they do through faith and training, and on the other you have the Grey Knights, who do what they do through their psychic mastery and the practice of the vilest sorceries and the blackest magics.

 Psienesis wrote:
faith and training

Don't forget their space magic!

Hari, stop trolling.

Sabathiel isn't mentioned in Daemonifuge, either, I don't know why that's marked as a reference.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Hari, stop trolling.

;D

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Also, this is lulworthy :
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/index.php?title=Talk%3AMiriael_Sabathiel&diff=201950&oldid=201624
. MASSIVE bs !

Oh bloody hell... Someone's gone and added the fanfic and incorrect citations back into that page and then locked it! Even after I went though and explained the reasoning... I'll have to try talking to the person who did it, I guess. Though he did just change it all back without any explanation, so I'm not exactly confident.

 Psienesis wrote:
Eh, I think that having 2 groups in the setting that have no members ever willingly fallen makes them interesting, especially since they are kind of on the opposite ends of the scale.

On the one hand, you have the SoB, who do what they do through faith and training, and on the other you have the Grey Knights, who do what they do through their psychic mastery and the practice of the vilest sorceries and the blackest magics.

This. For me, the strength of their faith is what really sets the Sisters apart, and really makes them stand out as an army. While memebers of other Imperial forces might falter when faced with Chaotic corruption, the Sisters resist with sheer faith alone.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Don't forget their space magic!

Magic is for heretics, heretic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I found a YouTube video of someone reading The Invitation, one of the two sources ever mentioning her. I will listen to it, if I can understand the English (recorded oral English makes me a sad panda ).

Here, bud, just read it:

http://www.emperorschildren.net/wiki/index.php?title=Characters:Mirial_Sabathial:THE_INVITATION

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
The Badab War is not a common occurance.

@Psienesis, I think a good number of Chapters are created independently from foundings. That part I am unsure of, however.

yea Badab War is very rare and reminds me of WW1 but was due to the darn machine loving psycos which if the stupid Inquisition did not have too much power some one sane would have stepped in and said the mechanicus started this crud so they must be punished. In my opine the Inquision needs to be culled&power limmited cause they declare renegade and heretic too quickly due to the fact they dont understand the astartes. I think we will see down the road a massive war against the Inquisition carried out by the Astartes. I think Grimaldus will be the main astartes pushing for the purge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
Twenty Legions. 9 Fell, 2 were destroyed.

Fell: Luna Wolves, Word Bearers, Death Guard, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, World-Eaters, Night Lords, Emperor's Children and the Thousand Sons.

Legions II and XI were purged.

Cant really say that Alpha Legion fell to Chaos cause their true loyalties are still unknown. if you read the White Scars novel you will see how allot of what they do is in their opine to protect the imperium. I would put them in renegade section.

if you read the White Scars novel you will see how allot of what they do is in their opine to protect the imperium. I would put them in renegade section.

Alpha Legion is as Traitor as they come. What they *think* they are doing is irrelevant.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Alpha Legion possibly being secret loyalists is just a BL thing, right? As far as I'm aware, GW and FW have characterised them as unambiguously evil.

Though, to clarify, one can of course go with whichever characterisation they prefer.

sophiteem wrote:
but was due to the darn machine loving psycos which if the stupid Inquisition did not have too much power some one sane would have stepped in and said the mechanicus started this crud so they must be punished. In my opine the Inquision needs to be culled&power limmited cause they declare renegade and heretic too quickly due to the fact they dont understand the astartes. I think we will see down the road a massive war against the Inquisition carried out by the Astartes. I think Grimaldus will be the main astartes pushing for the purge.

lol.
The marines fall to Chaos even more often than Inquisitors, and that is saying something.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I would argue that SoB would become more interesting if they actually did fall occasionally, but this was so extremely hushed down so it is not written anywhere. (Playing on the fact that many 40K fluff texts are supposed to be from an in-universe perspective.)

Well, you would argue that anything that made space marines look better or any other faction look weaker would make things more interesting, we know that .

 Troike wrote:
Oh bloody hell... Someone's gone and added the fanfic and incorrect citations back into that page and then locked it! Even after I went though and explained the reasoning...

Yeah. Quality editing, really !

 Troike wrote:
http://www.emperorschildren.net/wiki/index.php?title=Characters:Mirial_Sabathial:THE_INVITATION

Thanks.
I think I should quote a bit for Haraldus :
“Second only to the mighty Astartes, the sisters of battle were the most perfect fighting mechanisms of the Imperium of Man. Unlike the Astartes, none of them had ever fallen to corruption.”
See ? Even your favorite source agrees with me that marines fall all the time for no good reasons !

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Well, you would argue that anything that made space marines look better or any other faction look weaker would make things more interesting, we know that .

Except that this is just ad hominem.

Why do you think I suggest that Marines are less corruptible than you think when I am a CSM player?

The hypocrisy is pretty massive, btw, when your posts are overflowing with wild fanfics about marines falling at the blink of an eye while your beloved SoB are oh-so-incorruptible.

Are Battle Sisters really so awful so they need 100% incorruptability in order to Not Suck™?

Before you throw some appeal to hypocrisy fallacy at me, I assure you that Marines would not be significantly lessened in my eyes if they were easier to corrupt than other imperial organisations.

However, I still argue against it.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
See ? Even your favorite source agrees with me that marines fall all the time for no good reasons !

And unsurprisingly, you draw instant conclusions that are entirely ungrounded.

You have no idea at all of what my favourite source is, since I have not told you. And if you want to draw some obtuse conclusion from what I most often base my arguments on, say hello to www.lexicanum.com

Jumping from 'Marines have fallen at all' to 'marines fall all the time for no good reasons !' is an implausible fanfic to say the least.

But why am I even bothering with this asininity?

It's like talking to a doll that says 'Marines suck lel xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD' when you press the button on its belly.

It gets sort of tedious after a while.

I'd be suprised if there were more than 1% of the IG that fell.

So a 10% failure is pretty massive

 Bobthehero wrote:
I'd be suprised if there were more than 1% of the IG that fell.

So a 10% failure is pretty massive

False equivalence.

Guard are not nearly as targeted by corruption and temptation attempts because they are weaker and tend to die much faster than their Marine friends.

If a Noise Marine can choose between playing brainfething dubstep for five minutes for a Guardsman or ten minutes for a Marine, and either situation will result in the, you guessed it, brainfething of the unfortunate victim, then of course the latter is targeted.'

Guardsmen tend to just die before the corruption even can take root, whereas Marines have a higher Sudden Tentacle Survival Ratio™.

To assume that Marines would somehow gain increased corruption sensibility due to high training, implants, long lives, psycho-conditioning and careful selection is an illogical argument.

Nothing false about it.

Guardsmen die, Marines fall and go traitor, its a lot worse than losing troops for the IOM.

It is.

You are somehow saying that SM are easier to corrupt.

They are not.

They are more often corrupted, but that does not mean that it is easy to corrupt them, since a disproportionate effort is dedicated to said corruption.

It is far easier to kill Guardsmen though, so most enemies of Man prefer to do just that.

The process is easier if you're facing Marines because they don't die during said process, unlike guardsmen.

See?

...That is true, but that is not what people like Oxayotl are arguing.

Corruption works in different ways. Guardsmen are exactly as vulnerable to stuff like instacorrupting blood as anyone else, except the literally incorruptible ones like GK and SoB, who either have psychic wards or space magic/faith (Depending on interpretation) to protect them. Meanwhile, something like tons of tentacles starting to emerge from your body and fething your mind might be something a Marine could survive while a Guardsman, well, couldn't.

But if we look at something like Wolf of Fenris, I do not doubt that if the Corsairs had bothered with non-Astartes crew, they would have done the same as the SW on that ship did.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Why do you think I suggest that Marines are less corruptible than you think when I am a CSM player?

Because that makes them more exceptional.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
while your beloved SoB are oh-so-incorruptible.

I never denied some of them could be corrupted, I just noted how it was way less likely than a guardsman being corrupted, which in turn is less likely than a marine being corrupted, which in turn is less likely than a normal citizen being corrupted, which in turn is less likely than a mutant/pariah being corrupted.
If you have read Sisters fluff, it is an evidence.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
You have no idea at all of what my favourite source is, since I have not told you.

Yeah, but you still did quote Miriael Sabathiel aboug half a hundred times. The only source on Miriael Sabathiel except for one card with AFAIK no fluff at all on it states that marines fall so much more often that Sisters.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Guard are not nearly as targeted by corruption and temptation attempts because they are weaker and tend to die much faster than their Marine friends.

Yep, I am sure Guards are less exposed to the temptations of Chaos because the Chaos god are too busy whispering promises to space marines and… lowlife mutants living in slums. Oh, wait, that does not make any sense, why would the Chaos god try to corrupt mutants, civilians and space marines, but not guards ? And that is not even mentioning how a high-ranked guard officer commands forces way way bigger than a chapter.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
If a Noise Marine can choose between playing brainfething dubstep for five minutes for a Guardsman or ten minutes for a Marine, and either situation will result in the, you guessed it, brainfething of the unfortunate victim, then of course the latter is targeted.'

I am not sure the normal way to get corrupted is by hearing dubstep. I think it is more about desperation and a call for deliverance from pain (Nurgle), ambition, lust for power and the will to change things, looking for shortcut to power (the dark side of the force. Errr, I mean Tzeentch.), pride, a quest for perfecting oneself or one's craft, debauchery, seeking pleasure or thrill (slaanesh), and rage, bloodlust, wish for vengeance and martial prowess (Khorne). You know, all of this is feeling and thoughts, not physical pressure. Being physically drawn to Chaos is the rare exception rather than the norm.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Guardsmen tend to just die before the corruption even can take root

Uh ? They tend to die rather than accept to turn their cloak. It has nothing to do with physiology. Just saying “I work for Chaos now” is not going to kill anyone.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
whereas Marines have a higher Sudden Tentacle Survival Ratio™.

We are not talking about the ability to survive mutation, we are talking about the tendency to switch sides. Marines have a high tendency to switch side with the worse enemy of the Imperium. Guards, not as much.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
To assume that Marines would somehow gain increased corruption sensibility due to high training, implants, long lives, psycho-conditioning and careful selection is an illogical argument.

That is obviously not the reasons they have a much greater turn-cloak tendency. If I had to make a guess, I would say it must rather be the nature of the chapter's culture, what they value, what they believe in that makes them so easily turned away from the good path.

 Bobthehero wrote:
The process is easier if you're facing Marines because they don't die during said process, unlike guardsmen.

The explanation is right here, on this Wikipedia article on another Imperial Guard : La Garde meurt mais ne se rend pas!

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Guardsmen are exactly as vulnerable to stuff like instacorrupting blood as anyone else, except the literally incorruptible ones like GK and SoB, who either have psychic wards or space magic/faith (Depending on interpretation) to protect them.

What the freaking hell is that ?

Eventually the entire chapter was exposed and they renamed themselves the Blood Disciples.[…] Because of the warband's history as a designated assault company, The Blood Disciples are noted for having a large number of Chaos Raptors.

That does not make sense. If the whole chapter was renamed Blood Disciples, there is no history of them being a designated assault company . I guess not the whole chapter was exposed, just a company. Even then, this story is about one hundred marines that decided to go by themselves in the Eye of Terror, on a daemon world, to kill a guy that was not even planing to attack the imperium, and then bath in his blood (because seriously, even if you kill him in a gruesome manner, as long as you wear a helmet, which is a pretty good idea when on a freaking daemon world dedicated to Khorne, you will not get any blood on yourself, just on your armor), those marines did not exactly seems like balanced individuals at any rate. They really called that on themselves.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Meanwhile, something like tons of tentacles starting to emerge from your body and fething your mind might be something a Marine could survive while a Guardsman, well, couldn't.

That is so totally not what happened in the Wolf of Fenris, or to the original legions, or to the Crimson Slaughter, or…

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
But if we look at something like Wolf of Fenris, I do not doubt that if the Corsairs had bothered with non-Astartes crew, they would have done the same as the SW on that ship did.

It depends on who was on board. Sisters would have fight till the last woman. Many, but obviously not all, Imperial Guard regiment would have done the same. Cadians, Kriegsmen, Vostroyans, and so on, would not have surrendered. La Garde meurt mais ne se rend pas!

To be honest, one of the reasons why we don't hear about corrupted guardsmen as much could simply be because they don't have a codex. Look at all the knight fluff GW is cranking out nowadays...

(that said, I'd personally prefer a Renegades codex to focus more on natural-born chaos followers, myself)

inquisition despises the Astartes that they cant control. Inquisitors fall to chaos all the time&play with chaos thinking they can bend it to their will or use tanted objects to further their aims. Oh your chapter drinks blood then your renegades or you keep skulls then must be renegades. If the Emperor was not on the throne he would smack the hell out of the uppity inquisition. Astartes fall to chaos less then mere mortals.

sophiteem wrote:
If the Emperor was not on the throne he would smack the hell out of the uppity inquisition.

Yes of course. Because the Emperor knows Astartes never-ever fall to chaos.
Actually, if He ever get out of the Throne, He is more likely to abolish the marines now that He have seen what they truly are !

sophiteem wrote:
Astartes fall to chaos less then mere mortals.

Yeah, after all, only half of them. Of course, that is a very kind statement, given that more likely than not, 12 of the 20 legions did fall.

That was silly, Sophiteem.

Forming the Inquisition was actually the last direct act he undertook.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Forming the Inquisition was actually the last direct act he undertook.

So were the Grey Knights

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Yeah, after all, only half of them. Of course, that is a very kind statement, given that more likely than not, 12 of the 20 legions did fall.

That was silly, Sophiteem.

For the betrayal at Ishtvaan where they purged their loyalists from their ranks, the Luna Wolves Emperor's Children, Death Guard, and even the World Eaters of all legions had to purge around one third of their forces, if I recall correctly.

So that's like, one third of one half of the chaos legions that actually did NOT fall. Many Word Bearers had to be purged too, although we don't know how many since it was done more subtlely. We also don't know if there were any loyalist Night Lords, but we do know there was at the very least a small amount of loyalist Iron Warriors and Loyalist Thousand Sons, both of whom are still active in the story.

So it was actually a lot less than half the legions that fell to Chaos (not including the two purged ones). Admittingly I'm not sure how many Dark Angels fell to Chaos either. Ah well. Still a lot less than half the total amount of marines. (it's also important to note that around half the Titan legions and Imperial Army went to Chaos for the Horus Heresy, too, so it wasn't just marines. If anything, if it really was half of those, MORE "mere mortals" fell to Chaos than Marines did during the Heresy, considering the purging of loyalists that went on in the traitor legions). The main reason the traitors were such a threat was because they had the element of surprise, not numbers (well, and they had daemon allies too). Once their element of surprise and initiative (and daemons) were lost at the battle of Terra (with the Ultramarines and Space Wolves about to arrive), all the traitors could do was retreat to the Eye of Terror.

^ Very true.

sophiteem wrote:
inquisition despises the Astartes that they cant control. Inquisitors fall to chaos all the time&play with chaos thinking they can bend it to their will or use tanted objects to further their aims. Oh your chapter drinks blood then your renegades or you keep skulls then must be renegades. If the Emperor was not on the throne he would smack the hell out of the uppity inquisition. Astartes fall to chaos less then mere mortals.

You know it was the Emperor, Himself who gave the Inquisition its power, right? Either directly out of his own mouth, or through Malcador the Sigilite, who spoke with the Emperor's authority.

Mind you, that the Emperor created it does not gaurantee that the current Inquisition is how he would have wanted it.

It's pretty much operating in the way that he defined it. Beholden to no one, authorized to do anything, all in the name of purity of purpose.

No, but as he is aware of what goes on in his empire(to an extent) and the fact that he can talk with his subjects if he wishes means that he doesn't disapprove of what the current situation is given the circumstances.

Its not ideal, but given the circumstances nothing else could be done so there would be no need to change things.

Keep in mind that the current situation of the Imperium is the absolutely best things could possibly be, given the circumstances. The parts of the Imperium that are crapholes are not crapholes for the lulz, or because all it would take is one reasonable person to come along and fix things, it is because the crapholes they are is the results of the best and only choice that could be made in all of the decisions to lead up to this point.

Everything that has been done in the Imperium since the Emperor ascended to the Golden Throne has been done with the goal of keeping the Imperium intact and Mankind a species that exists. Every choice made, every action taken, has been to ensure the survival of the species, and every choice and every action taken has been the best possible choice out of all the terrible, gakky choices presented at those moments.

TiamatRoar wrote:
So it was actually a lot less than half the legions that fell to Chaos (not including the two purged ones).

Much more than half if you include them, and those from loyalist legions who betrayed individually.

TiamatRoar wrote:
it's also important to note that around half the Titan legions and Imperial Army went to Chaos for the Horus Heresy, too, so it wasn't just marines.

No, it was subordinate to those corrupted marines given the choice between dying and treason, and we have no idea how many of them were purged because they are pretty much always treated as negligible portion by GW.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
So it was actually a lot less than half the legions that fell to Chaos (not including the two purged ones).

Much more than half if you include them, and those from loyalist legions who betrayed individually.

The lost Legions have obviously not turned to chaos.
As said before 30% of the traitor Legions kept their oath to the Emperor. Why should the loyalist Legions have more than 30% turning against the Emperor and their Primarch ?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
it's also important to note that around half the Titan legions and Imperial Army went to Chaos for the Horus Heresy, too, so it wasn't just marines.

No, it was subordinate to those corrupted marines given the choice between dying and treason, and we have no idea how many of them were purged because they are pretty much always treated as negligible portion by GW.

Horus was Warmaster of 100% of the forces of the Imperium.
Half of the forces opted for the Warmaster ( or in many cases , their own benefit first and the IoM second...).
No need for traitor marines to give them ideas.



I am pretty sure I have seen numbers given by GW how many Marine chapters turned traitor and how many were lost in transit somwhere....
( 3rd ed onwards ). Sadly can't find it ATM.
But it was a very small portion of the AA lost to chaos, far more lost in transit.

This could have changed, transportation still dangerous but GW moved from traitor legions as focus to renegades and warbands and to have them
around they need marines to turn...

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
So it was actually a lot less than half the legions that fell to Chaos (not including the two purged ones).

Much more than half if you include them, and those from loyalist legions who betrayed individually.
No, it was subordinate to those corrupted marines given the choice between dying and treason, and we have no idea how many of them were purged because they are pretty much always treated as negligible portion by GW.

Hardly anyone from the loyalist legions turned traitor.

 Psienesis wrote:

sophiteem wrote:
inquisition despises the Astartes that they cant control. Inquisitors fall to chaos all the time&play with chaos thinking they can bend it to their will or use tanted objects to further their aims. Oh your chapter drinks blood then your renegades or you keep skulls then must be renegades. If the Emperor was not on the throne he would smack the hell out of the uppity inquisition. Astartes fall to chaos less then mere mortals.

You know it was the Emperor, Himself who gave the Inquisition its power, right? Either directly out of his own mouth, or through Malcador the Sigilite, who spoke with the Emperor's authority.

The Emperor pushed the Imperial truth which is the anti-thesis of the inquisition. main reason he punished the word bearers. chaplains are derived from them. Yes the traitor legions had to purge their ranks and even then they were not fully successful in doing so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Forming the Inquisition was actually the last direct act he undertook.

According to GW there is no proof the Emperor gave the order to create the Inquisition but there are two different stories on how it was created. it was the aclusiarcy and Inquisition that nearly created another civil war that could have destroyed the Imperium. its the inquisition that laid seige to Fenris, played a role on Ryyns world and the destruction of the fortress keep. They even tried to kill off a successor chapter of the Black Templars.

I'm under the impression that the vast majority of the loyalists never even got the choice to turn traitor. It was hard enough for the traitor legions to deal with their own loyalists within their ranks. They would have leaked the secret out in advance if they tried to sway anyone from the Loyalist legions in advance. Hell, many TRAITOR legion members never got the chaos memo either when the Heresy went down (Warsmith Dantioch, the Outcast Dead, and all the "good guys" from traitor legions in the Battle of the Abyss, for example). It's kinda hard for Traitor Legions to sway loyalist members when they aren't even finished handing out their chaos recruitment pamphlets to their own legion members.

Whether or not that means the loyalists would have turned if they had the choice is unknown, but it's factually true that almost none of the loyalist traitors turned to Chaos anyways (to my knowledge). You can't really use "loyalists who turned to Chaos" as a factor because there is nothing conclusive there (with the exception of the Fallen Dark Angels). Although from the BL I'm under the impression most would have refused anyways once the Heresy broke out.

(actually, come to think about it, Chaos did try to turn or trick some of them into Chaos but they rejected/prevented it. The Blood Angels at Signus for example. A good chunk of the White Scars were on the brink but I believe almost all of them ended up staying loyalist after the Khan talked some sense into them. ...well, the survivors of the initial scuffle, at least).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

No, it was subordinate to those corrupted marines given the choice between dying and treason, and we have no idea how many of them were purged because they are pretty much always treated as negligible portion by GW.

Turning to Chaos because you were threatened with death still counts. Hell, that's one of Chaos' primary recruitment methods even in the 40th millenium .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

sophiteem wrote:
If the Emperor was not on the throne he would smack the hell out of the uppity inquisition.

Yes of course. Because the Emperor knows Astartes never-ever fall to chaos.
Actually, if He ever get out of the Throne, He is more likely to abolish the marines now that He have seen what they truly are !

sophiteem wrote:
Astartes fall to chaos less then mere mortals.

Yeah, after all, only half of them. Of course, that is a very kind statement, given that more likely than not, 12 of the 20 legions did fall.

That was silly, Sophiteem.

The Astartes are his children so no they would not be disbanded. The Smurfs would get a spanking then the Inquisition would be treated like the word bearers for being fanatical boobs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

sophiteem wrote:
If the Emperor was not on the throne he would smack the hell out of the uppity inquisition.

Yes of course. Because the Emperor knows Astartes never-ever fall to chaos.
Actually, if He ever get out of the Throne, He is more likely to abolish the marines now that He have seen what they truly are !

sophiteem wrote:
Astartes fall to chaos less then mere mortals.

Yeah, after all, only half of them. Of course, that is a very kind statement, given that more likely than not, 12 of the 20 legions did fall.

That was silly, Sophiteem.

I wish people would give the current Imperium (including its Space Marines and Space Marine system) more credit. They always think "Oh, the Primarchs/Emperor would tear it apart if they were around because of how bad it is!" but ithe current Imperium actually has a better track record than the Emperor did. After all, the current Imperium's never had half their astartes chapters (chapters, after purging the loyalist ranks within) and army and titans turn against them and to Chaos, and this is in spite of how Chaos is more powerful now than it was, before.

Also, the Inquisition wouldn't be so powerful if it wasn't working. Inquisitors ONLY have their position as Inquisitors to rely upon when it comes to their authority. If an Inquisitor is viewed as not doing his job well, then unlike "divine right" monarchy systems, they can't really say they're untouchable if they screw something up just because they have the Emperor backing them up (unless they have really really good connections with the Ecclesiarchy, which most inquisitors seem quite detached from). "By the authority of the God Emperor" doesn't exempt them from failing the God-Emperor. In addition, they don't have huge private armies backing them up, most of them dont' have unlimited amounts of wealth, they aren't intricately tied to the system like the Head of the Administratum so they can threaten lay-offs or bribe with promotions nor are they necessary for keeping the Imperium running like the Mechanicus, Navis Noblite, or Adeptus Telepathica.

The Inquisition's authority comes entirely from the fact that without that authority, they wouldn't be able to do a very very necessary job. Thus, if the Inquisition either weren't doing a necessary job or they were doing it incompetently, they'd be toast.

Because they aren't toast, it can' only be assumed that their job is necessary and generally being done competently. All Fluff i've seen regarding the Inquisition has always stated that they are a necessary evil at worse and I've never seen any fluff piece that explicitly stated they weren't necessary or that the Inquisition as a whole was an unnecessary detriment to the Imperium.

TiamatRoar wrote:
I'm under the impression that the vast majority of the loyalists never even got the choice to turn traitor. It was hard enough for the traitor legions to deal with their own loyalists within their ranks. They would have leaked the secret out in advance if they tried to sway anyone from the Loyalist legions in advance. Hell, many TRAITOR legion members never got the chaos memo either when the Heresy went down (Warsmith Dantioch, the Outcast Dead, and all the "good guys" from traitor legions in the Battle of the Abyss, for example). It's kinda hard for Traitor Legions to sway loyalist members when they aren't even finished handing out their chaos recruitment pamphlets to their own legion members.

Whether or not that means the loyalists would have turned if they had the choice is unknown, but it's factually true that almost none of the loyalist traitors turned to Chaos anyways (to my knowledge). You can't really use "loyalists who turned to Chaos" as a factor because there is nothing conclusive there (with the exception of the Fallen Dark Angels). Although from the BL I'm under the impression most would have refused anyways once the Heresy broke out.

(actually, come to think about it, Chaos did try to turn or trick some of them into Chaos but they rejected/prevented it. The Blood Angels at Signus for example. A good chunk of the White Scars were on the brink but I believe almost all of them ended up staying loyalist after the Khan talked some sense into them. ...well, the survivors of the initial scuffle, at least).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

No, it was subordinate to those corrupted marines given the choice between dying and treason, and we have no idea how many of them were purged because they are pretty much always treated as negligible portion by GW.

Turning to Chaos because you were threatened with death still counts. Hell, that's one of Chaos' primary recruitment methods even in the 40th millenium .

Even then with the Dark Angels we dont truly know what happened. Then we have the Blood Raven chapter that we dont know who founded them and they allmost became a traitor chapter due to their chapter master wanting to become a demon prince. Most of the blood ravens did not know what was going on. Ie the Diomedes their second in command.

TiamatRoar wrote:
They always think "Oh, the Primarchs/Emperor would tear it apart if they were around because of how bad it is!"

I see this a lot too. But nah, I really doubt that'd happen. Trying to violently reform the Imperium at the moment would be a rather idiotic move, considering that it's currently under a lot of pressure from its enemies. It would also require the Emperor and/or Primarchs to be blind to the fact that the Ecclesiarchy/Inquisition has played and continues to play a large role in keeping the Imperium together.

They might try to reform it a bit once its in a less dangerous position, but trying to do so in 40K's present would be folly.

sophiteem wrote:
The Astartes are his children so no they would not be disbanded. The Smurfs would get a spanking then the Inquisition would be treated like the word bearers for being fanatical boobs.

I don't think that anybody is saying to disband them. But they certainly need to be watched for treachery, as Marines have turned traitor before, and traitor Marines are often a big problem. And if they do turn traitor, then the Inquisition or any other Imperial factions that are up to it need to be able to react.

sophiteem wrote:
According to GW there is no proof the Emperor gave the order to create the Inquisition

Oh? Where do they say that?

sophiteem wrote:
Then we have the Blood Raven chapter that we dont know who founded them

Strongly hinted to be the Thousand Sons. The DoW series has a few hints that they're desceneded from a traitor legion. But then the Horus Heresy book for the Thousand Sons drops a really obvious hint when it mentions that a detatchment of Thousand Sons was away from Prospero when the Wolves attacked, whilst also mentioning the word raven at the same time.

 Troike wrote:

sophiteem wrote:
According to GW there is no proof the Emperor gave the order to create the Inquisition

Oh? Where do they say that?.

If you want to be really REALLY technical, then yea, there's no proof that the Emperor created the Inquisition (far as I know). At most, the Inquisition codex says "the most common aspect of all the legends of the inquisition are that Malcador presented the 12 (?) individuals of "an inquisitive nature to the Emperor" blah blah blah". (paraphrased, obviously)

However, the fact that almost all the legends of the Inquisition's origins, despite how those legends vary wildly in every other way, have this one thing common amongst the vast majority of them would imply it's true, I think. Well, or at least quite probable.

We might find out for sure from BL, but for now, the Emperor approving/ordering the Inquisition formed seems like a safe enough bet at least. Again, not confirmed, but more probable than the alternative given that it's the one common thing amongst the myriad of legends involving the Inquisition's origins, in my opinion.

 1hadhq wrote:
The lost Legions have obviously not turned to chaos.

Obviously. Yeah, except there is nothing obvious about it.

 1hadhq wrote:
As said before 30% of the traitor Legions kept their oath to the Emperor.

Nope. 30% of the Death Guard, according to Lexicanicum.
For Sons of Horus/Luna Wolves, it say :
“The majority of the Sons of Horus, already fiercely loyal and proud of their Warmaster, had no hesitation. They quickly renounced their oaths to the Emperor and started to worship Horus and his new gods. The remaining portion of the Legion was betrayed and wiped out by their brothers on the world of Isstvan III, but not before reverting to the use of their original name, the Luna Wolves.”
For the Emperor's Children, it says :
“The rot spread from Fulgrim to his Lord Commanders, then to company and squad leaders, and finally all but a bare handful of Marines followed Slaanesh rather than the Emperor. The remaining loyalists, led by Saul Tarvitz, a Captain of the Emperors Children, fought bravely on Isstvan III but were eventually overwhelmed as Horus, and the three Primarchs who had already declared for him wiped out those forces they believed would remain loyal to the Emperor.”
For World Eaters, strangely it is also one third of the Legion, though that could just be Angron liking to kill people more than anything else.
“Angron led the World Eaters in the first surface attack on Isstvan III to destroy the remaining Loyalist Marines. Roughly one-third of the Legion itself was marked to die by orders of Angron.”
AFAIK, all the Thousand Sons went chaotic, though more thanks to idiotic space wolves being stupid than because of a lack of loyalty.
The Lexicanicum says nothing about a purge among the Iron Warriors, neither among the Night Lords (and really, who would expect a Night Lord to be loyal ?), and for the Alpha Legion… it is secret !

 1hadhq wrote:
Why should the loyalist Legions have more than 30% turning against the Emperor and their Primarch ?

That is what I am wondering too. Why are they so keen on betraying ?

 1hadhq wrote:
Horus was Warmaster of 100% of the forces of the Imperium.

Yeah, and ?
Let me quote Lexicanicum.

The Imperial Army's subordination to the Astartes Legions led to the Imperial Army tearing itself apart in the Horus Heresy, when half of the legions rebelled against the Emperor, and took their Army regiments with them.

So, yeah, clearly coercion from the traitor legions at work.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Hardly anyone from the loyalist legions turned traitor.

You should tell the Dark Angels !

sophiteem wrote:
The Emperor pushed the Imperial truth which is the anti-thesis of the inquisition. main reason he punished the word bearers.

Obviously, you do not know the fluff you are talking about .
Seriously. The Inquisition, despite its name, is NOT a religious organization. That would be the Ecclesiarchy.

sophiteem wrote:
it was the aclusiarcy and Inquisition that nearly created another civil war that could have destroyed the Imperium.

Ecclesiarchy. You should know that the Inquisition had no part in this, as in absolutely none, and that it was actually someone from the Administratum that killed the Ecclersiarch, and usurped his place. So, yeah, I am pretty confident I can dismiss anything you say as the rambling of someone who has no idea what he/she is speaking about.

sophiteem wrote:
The Smurfs would get a spanking then the Inquisition would be treated like the word bearers for being fanatical boobs.

There, we have a very good illustration that you are confusing what you, as a fan, would like, and what the Emperor would actually be likely to do.
You obviously do not like the Ultramarines, for no good reason

sophiteem wrote:
The Emperor pushed the Imperial truth which is the anti-thesis of the inquisition. main reason he punished the word bearers.

Obviously, you do not know the fluff you are talking about .
Seriously. The Inquisition, despite its name, is NOT a religious organization. That would be the Ecclesiarchy.

sophiteem wrote:
it was the aclusiarcy and Inquisition that nearly created another civil war that could have destroyed the Imperium.

Ecclesiarchy. You should know that the Inquisition had no part in this, as in absolutely none, and that it was actually someone from the Administratum that killed the Ecclersiarch, and usurped his place. So, yeah, I am pretty confident I can dismiss anything you say as the rambling of someone who has no idea what he/she is speaking about.

sophiteem wrote:
The Smurfs would get a spanking then the Inquisition would be treated like the word bearers for being fanatical boobs.

There, we have a very good illustration that you are confusing what you, as a fan, would like, and what the Emperor would actually be likely to do.
You obviously do not like the Ultramarines, for no good reason

The Lexicanicum says nothing about a purge among the Iron Warriors, neither among the Night Lords (and really, who would expect a Night Lord to be loyal ?), and for the Alpha Legion… it is secret !

In the Night Lord novels there is a flashback to Night Haunter recalling his brother Primarchs talking of the purges of their ranks of those still loyal, and Konrad had to just laugh at the idea, saying he wouldn't even know where to begin... or something to that effect.

Oh, dear Imperator, Sophi, please format your posts properly! You're quoting your own mistakes and attacking the spelling errors now! Or at least, that's how that post reads.

The Ecclesiarchy were founded years before the Ordo Hereticus and the Adepta Sororitas - about five thousand years before them, in fact. The OH and the AS were formed in M.36 as watchdogs to make sure the Ecclesiarchy didn't overstep its bounds again.

Why are you even quoting a huge block of text about the Sisters anyway?! They're completely irrelevant to the thread, Oxy and Hari's romance aside!

The Inquisition are not religiously inclined as an organisation. Their role is to seek out corruption within the Imperium. On top of that, membership of the Ordos is a purely political thing within the Inquisition itself. To the average Citizen, there is no such thing as an "Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor", there is just an Inquisitor. Xenos inquisitors spend as much time hunting chaos relics as they do genestealer cults, and Hereticus inquisitors are actually more likely to discover a daemon cult than they are to find a Cardinal diverting funds into recidivist groups.

Without the Ecclesiarchy, the Imperium would have fallen apart and become warring planetary empires within a few decades. Without the Inquisition, the Imperium would have lost millions of worlds to rebellion, daemon invasion, and rampant mutation that rendered its citizens no longer human.

sophiteem wrote:
Since you want to be Anal about my spelling

No, it is more about the massive misconceptions. That was just the icing.

sophiteem wrote:
lets quote the lexicanum

Your quote says the Ordo Hereticus is watching and policing the Ecclersiarchy. It does not say anywhere they are religious. And that is only one of the Ordo.
Fact : the Inquisition is not a religious organization.
Fact : there is absolutely no hint that the creation of the Inquisition and the creation of the Ecclersiarchy are linked in any way, but there are plenty of hint that points to them having absolutely no relation whatsoever.
Fact : the Ordo Hereticus was founded way, way after the Ecclesiarchy was founded, after the Apostasy.

sophiteem wrote:
Ordo xenos would really be the non religious one out of all of them.

False.
An Inquisitor from the Ordo Xenos may be very religious. An Inquisitor from the Ordo Hereticus may not even believe in the divinity of the Emperor. The difference between them is what threat they focus on, not what they believe. The Ordo Hereticus will focus on treason from within the Imperium, the Ordo Xenos on, well, Xenos threats.

sophiteem wrote:
I could cast the same insult at you as being a fan confusing what the Emperor would with what you would like.

You could, but I have better arguments .

You sure like your passive-aggressive orkmoticons.

Actually, before quoting lexicanum, I suggest you read the HH Sourcebooks "Betrayal" and "Massacre"

In those books each of the traitor legions at Istvaan III have loyalists numbering between 1/5 to 1/3 of the forces available.

Horus killed a lot of good marines.

If there were "hardly any" as you propose, then the months long battle by the loyalists holding the ruined city shows some pretty severe incompetence on the part of Horus and co....

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

sophiteem wrote:
lets quote the lexicanum

Your quote says the Ordo Hereticus is watching and policing the Ecclersiarchy. It does not say anywhere they are religious. And that is only one of the Ordo.
Fact : the Inquisition is not a religious organization.

While the Inquisition itself is not a religious organisation you can easily assume the vast majority (if not all) claim to worship the Emperor as a deity at least in public. Even Inquisitors aren't stupid or protected enough that they can spout heresy in a public way (Although if you ask Puritans there's a distinct possibility they will say what Radical Inquisitors do is heresy)

Additionally, while the Inquisition may not be a priesthood, if an Imperial Guard (Astra Militarum?) high officer proclaims he does not believe in the Emperor's divinity, you can expect problems. Inquisitors are not crusaders, but they are Inquisitors. If people cease to believe, this creates dissension. Dissension is not good for the Imperium.

 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
Actually, before quoting lexicanum, I suggest you read the HH Sourcebooks "Betrayal" and "Massacre"

CBA. It really does not seem interesting to me.
But marines being incompetent does not seem so impossible to me.

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
While the Inquisition itself is not a religious organisation you can easily assume the vast majority (if not all) claim to worship the Emperor as a deity at least in public.

Yeah, so ? Do not forget the context. Sophiteem was explaining to the world how the Emperor would disband the Inquisition because they were religious nutcase. By that logic, he would have to disband the Imperial Guard too .

Going by more recent sources,a huge chunk of all four legions at the Ishtvaan betrayal (DG, LW, EC, and WE) were loyalists (or suspected loyalists) that were purged at ishtvaan, regardless of what older canon says (not that I'm sure Lexi is getting its info from old canon anyways). Forge World and the BL novels make it very clear (explicitly stated in the Forge World books, in fact) and never anywhere was it mentioned in either of those sources that some of the loyalists from legions there outnumbered the others THAT much.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
Actually, before quoting lexicanum, I suggest you read the HH Sourcebooks "Betrayal" and "Massacre"

CBA. It really does not seem interesting to me.
But marines being incompetent does not seem so impossible to me.

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
While the Inquisition itself is not a religious organisation you can easily assume the vast majority (if not all) claim to worship the Emperor as a deity at least in public.

Yeh, so ? Do not forget the context. Sophiteem was explaining to the world how the Emperor would disband the Inquisition because they were religious nutcase. By that logic, he would have to disband the Imperial Guard too .

you say context but I never once said they would be disbanded. The Emperor did not disband the Word Bearers. I said this>>>> "The Astartes are his children so no they would not be
disbanded. The Smurfs would get a spanking then the
Inquisition would be treated like the word bearers for being
fanatical boobs." <<<<< Also I admitted I can not spell. I was not anal about the spelling like you for in the end as players and fans we can have all the opinions we want but its GW that decides what is cannon and not cannon even with all the damn conflicts in the lore. All the BL writers have chapters or armies that they are partial to and its evident that they will change the lore to suit their partiality. ie Ward and Gotto.

sophiteem wrote:
I said this>>>> "The Astartes are his children so no they would not be
disbanded. The Smurfs would get a spanking then the
Inquisition would be treated like the word bearers for being
fanatical boobs." <<<<<

Yeah. Unlike the Word Bearer, the Inquisition is not fanatical boobs. The comparison it totally off.

sophiteem wrote:
Also I admitted I can not spell. I was not anal about the spelling like you

I do not care about your spelling, goddammit.