71151
Post by: Waaaghpower
So, I realize it's an artifact of being a 4th ed. codex, but Warbosses should really be a lot stronger. So, I propose an optional upgrade to the Warboss:
Warlord (+50 Points)
The Warlord gains +1 Ws, S, W, I, and Ld.
Aditionally, when calling a WAAAGH, he and his unit may run and charge in the same turn, though they may not reroll the dice when checking charge distance.
Eh? Any good?
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Post by: Murrdox
Sure, I'd say 50 points is probably a reasonable cost for all those gubbins.
You've got a WS6 S6 Ork Warboss with a beefy 4 wounds, 5 Initiative and 10 Ld?
Give that Boss a Big Choppa! Four attacks at ST 8 at Initiative 5 is pretty awesome! Yeah you'll get armor saves, but he'll be Instant Death-ing anything T4 or lower on a failed save, which is nice.
The only thing that might go too far is the +1 initiative, just because that makes him as fast as an Eldar... which is just sort of un-fluffy. I can't imagine an Ork as quick as an Eldar.
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Post by: Waaaghpower
I personally also feel that the Big Choppa should be AP4, but that's just me. :/
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Post by: phatonic
Waaaghpower wrote:I personally also feel that the Big Choppa should be AP4, but that's just me. :/
Might change it next codex this summer tough 
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Post by: Murrdox
Personally, I'd like to see the Big Choppa have a rule similar to the old Choppa rule. Though instead of treating all armor as 4+, I'd say give a -1 to all armor saves.
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Post by: phatonic
Murrdox wrote:Personally, I'd like to see the Big Choppa have a rule similar to the old Choppa rule. Though instead of treating all armor as 4+, I'd say give a -1 to all armor saves.
Mhm as i recall it, it reduced the armor to 4+ no matter what armor you had, i remember the face on my friends terminator 
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Post by: koooaei
It's essentially something like sm chapter master upgrade. What do they get for 40 points? +1 wound, +1 attack, orbital bombardment...
Now i suggest why don't we go the same route? Extra str won't be used cause u're going for a pk anywayz. U also won't use +1 toughness cause u'll be in a unit, so majority toughness neglects this bonus too. Why not give him similar stuff to sm chapter master? Remember, orkses tend to adopt enemie's stuff that impresses them! Deff dreads, battlewagonz, stompas are all the result of this.
Warlord: +1 wound, +1 attack, *Orbital Garbagement - 40 pts
*Orbital Garbagement - drops garbage from the orbit.
Heavy D3 s10 ap-, Ordnance Barrage, Orbital
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Post by: Waaaghpower
 koooaei wrote:It's essentially something like sm chapter master upgrade. What do they get for 40 points? +1 wound, +1 attack, orbital bombardment...
Now i suggest why don't we go the same route? Extra str won't be used cause u're going for a pk anywayz. U also won't use +1 toughness cause u'll be in a unit, so majority toughness neglects this bonus too. Why not give him similar stuff to sm chapter master? Remember, orkses tend to adopt enemie's stuff that impresses them! Deff dreads, battlewagonz, stompas are all the result of this.
Warlord: +1 wound, +1 attack, *Orbital Garbagement - 40 pts
*Orbital Garbagement - drops garbage from the orbit.
Heavy D3 s10 ap-, Ordnance Barrage, Orbital
No extra T, because they would be incredibly OP in certain settings. A Warboss, on his own, on a Warbike? You've got a T7 monstrosity. (Charge him into S5 or worse units, you're being wounded on 6s.)
But comparing him to a CM doesn't work, because the CM is far more powerful. A decked-out Chapter Master has Eternal Warrior, and a 2+3++ save. There's simply nothing a Warboss can take to compete with that level of power. Comparing them just leaves you sad and disappointed.
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Post by: Perfect Organism
Waaaghpower wrote:So, I realize it's an artifact of being a 4th ed. codex, but Warbosses should really be a lot stronger.
Why on earth should they be stronger? Sure, they tend to die to really powerful close-combat characters, but that's consistent with the background and fair enough for their points cost.
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Post by: Ashiraya
^ That. Warbosses turn most other unnamed characters to dust with cybork parts and a PK, which really is enough.
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Post by: Waaaghpower
Because Orks are a Close Combat army, but even our strongest, most capable fighter still loses against almost every other dedicated CC model.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
Waaaghpower wrote:Because Orks are a Close Combat army, but even our strongest, most capable fighter still loses against almost every other dedicated CC model.
And your Warbosses are cheap as chips by comparison. Ghazghkull still krumps people really well.
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Post by: Waaaghpower
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:Waaaghpower wrote:Because Orks are a Close Combat army, but even our strongest, most capable fighter still loses against almost every other dedicated CC model.
And your Warbosses are cheap as chips by comparison. Ghazghkull still krumps people really well.
An 80-100 point difference isn't 'Cheap as chips' on 150+ point models, especially when 1 Chapter Master or Daemon Prince will kill 2 Warbosses every time. We have to decide between durability or mobility, everyone else gets both. Warbosses also generally have less attacks, no way to hut at I with any power, less durability even with a Mega Armor build, and are super easy to kill no matter what you bring.
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Post by: Perfect Organism
Warbosses have less attacks? That's news to me. Warboss has four attacks base, chapter master has four attacks base. Neither get to use a second weapon (assuming the boss has a klaw and the CM has a shield), but the WB can buy an extra attack with an Attack Squig.
Warboss can't cause serious damage at Initiative? Who can? Virtually every weapon in the game with AP 2 is also Unwieldy. It's not that likely that you will die in one round of attacks even from a really tooled-up character anyway, so you still get to hit back most of the time.
Super-easy to kill? Well, they aren't as tough as a Chapter Master on a bike with Artificer Armour and the Shield Eternal backed up by an Apothecary, but not much is. Three wounds, Toughness 5/6, a 5+ Invulnerable and a 2+ armour save or easy access to Feel No Pain is hardly delicate. Very few characters can reliably kill that before he has a chance to hit them a few times.
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Post by: Waaaghpower
I'm comparing them in general to Wolf Lords, Chapter Masters, and Daemon Princes.
Chapter Masters and DP both get AP2 at initiative. Wolf Lords and DP get more attacks. All three get mobility and durability, not either/or.
Also, it's T5 with a 2+ or T6 with a 4+ and FNP. Either they're incredibly vulnerable to a single S10 shot, or else will go down to Bolter fire because average squad toughness still won't be 6.
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Post by: Ashiraya
Warbosses are supposed to be and are tough, but they are cheaper than, supposed to and do lose to Daemon Princes and Chapter Masters!
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Post by: Waaaghpower
 BrotherHaraldus wrote:Warbosses are supposed to be and are tough, but they are cheaper than, supposed to and do lose to Daemon Princes and Chapter Masters!
Even with my proposed fix they wouldn't be able to foght CMs or DPs, they'd just not be as completely outclassed.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
Waaaghpower wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote:Waaaghpower wrote:Because Orks are a Close Combat army, but even our strongest, most capable fighter still loses against almost every other dedicated CC model.
And your Warbosses are cheap as chips by comparison. Ghazghkull still krumps people really well.
An 80-100 point difference isn't 'Cheap as chips' on 150+ point models, especially when 1 Chapter Master or Daemon Prince will kill 2 Warbosses every time. We have to decide between durability or mobility, everyone else gets both. Warbosses also generally have less attacks, no way to hut at I with any power, less durability even with a Mega Armor build, and are super easy to kill no matter what you bring.
An 80-100 point difference certainly is still cheap as chips, because you're not paying 80-100 points more for your model. Further, for the record, Klaw bosses hit at S10. No, you might not win against a beatstick 100 points more expensive than you, but why on earth should you?
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Post by: Waaaghpower
AlmightyWalrus wrote:Waaaghpower wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote:Waaaghpower wrote:Because Orks are a Close Combat army, but even our strongest, most capable fighter still loses against almost every other dedicated CC model.
And your Warbosses are cheap as chips by comparison. Ghazghkull still krumps people really well.
An 80-100 point difference isn't 'Cheap as chips' on 150+ point models, especially when 1 Chapter Master or Daemon Prince will kill 2 Warbosses every time. We have to decide between durability or mobility, everyone else gets both. Warbosses also generally have less attacks, no way to hut at I with any power, less durability even with a Mega Armor build, and are super easy to kill no matter what you bring.
An 80-100 point difference certainly is still cheap as chips, because you're not paying 80-100 points more for your model. Further, for the record, Klaw bosses hit at S10. No, you might not win against a beatstick 100 points more expensive than you, but why on earth should you?
My problem, as I've said, is not that a Warboss loses to a CM. It's that 3 Warbosses all working together still lose to a CM. Or a DP. Or a Wolf Lord.
EDIT: With Mega Armor, CM, Wolf Lords or DPs can reasonably fight 4 or 5 Warbosses, even. Against Bikes, the CM performs slightly better.
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Post by: Grey Knight Dillon
Ya, as many others have said I do not believe the upgrade as necessary.
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Post by: Perfect Organism
How is a Daemon Prince more durable than a warboss when it's got the same Toughness as a footslogging warboss, a 5+ Invulnerable save, just like a warboss, no Eternal Warrior and can't get a 2+ save or Feel No Pain? It's got one extra wound, but it can't hide in a unit, so it's pretty vulnerable to getting shot to pieces. The only reason it easily beats the warboss is because it's a monstrous creature and monstrous creatures are astonishingly good in challenges.
As for the Chapter Master, you're not only comparing a character which costs many more points, you're also using two unique relics to get him good enough to make the warboss look bad. Surely it would be fairer to compare special character warbosses to that kind of build? With special characters, you've got Ghaz (Eternal Warrior, more wounds, more attacks, Armour Indomitus equivalent) and Zhadsnark (Strength 10, AP 2 attacks at Initiative) which seem to offer the kind of thing you are looking for.
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Post by: Waaaghpower
Ghazkull still loses. After his durability wears off, he's screwed. And I'm assuming 1 relic, and a PF.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the DP, I'm assuming one with Iron Arm.(DPs are iften spammed, so this is not unreasonable.) Besides, just being a flyer gives a massive advantage for durability.
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Post by: Slayer222
Eldar are in the same boat. Put up a special phoenix lord vs ghazkull and they loose. Put up a war boss vs autarch and they loose. Put up eldar cc against anything you mentioned and they loose. Their are just somethings that armies can't do, its not right but it happens.
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Post by: Waaaghpower
The prime difference being, ELDAR IS NOT A CLOSE COMBAT ARMY. Orks are. And yet, if you put our very best Close Combat model against any other dedicated close combat model or unit, he loses.
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Post by: Slayer222
Eldar are a specialisation army, meaning that our close combat should be the best of the best in cc, while gakky everywhere else, however they are better shooting their pistols than going into cc.
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Post by: Ashiraya
Warbosses are not bad.
They are not top tier, but they are firmly middle of the road, which is not a bad place to be.
They do not need buffs.
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Post by: Waaaghpower
BrotherHaraldus wrote:Warbosses are not bad.
They are not top tier, but they are firmly middle of the road, which is not a bad place to be.
They do not need buffs.
I'm not proposing a buff, I'm proposing an upgrade. The Warboss isn't awful. But, Orks are supposed to be a dedicated Close Combat army, and the leader of a WAAAGH! Is supposed to be nigh-unstoppable in Close Combat. I'm proposing just that.
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Post by: Perfect Organism
Orks are not meant to be a dedicated close combat army. They have never been a dedicated close combat army. Ork shooting has always been important in the background (this is the race that always calls for 'more dakka', that had pages and pages in their first sourcebook dedicated to custom guns, that has more and better shooting specialist units than close combat specialist units) and on the tabletop.
Even if they were, that doesn't mean that our HQ has to be the best as close combat. Tau and Imperial Guard are 'shooty' armies, but their warlords generally don't have access to amazing firepower compared to other races. I have absolutely no idea where you get the impression that warbosses are meant to be 'nigh-unstoppable' in close combat, when the background is full of examples of warbosses who were stopped in close combat by characters who aren't exactly close combat gods themselves; Pedro Kantor, Ezekiel, Farsight and Commisar Yarrick have all killed warbosses in hand-to-hand fights.
If you do want to make a generic 'warlord' option, I suggest modelling it as closely as possible on Ghazghkull's statline and not giving it any generic abilities which make it significantly better than Ghazghkull.
For points cost, you can work backwards from Ghazghkull. He's got a 2+ invulnerable save which only works for one turn, probably worth around 40 points (the difference between armour indomitus and artificer arour), Eternal Warrior (or the equivalent at least) probably worth around another 20-30 points, an extra attack on the charge (less than 15 points, since an attack squig is better) and an improved Waaagh (pretty worthless). He's also got around 60 points of generic ork wargear (mega-armour, bosspole, cybork body, big shoota). That implies that for around 30 points, you should get +1 WS, +1 W and +1 Attack, which seems pretty fair to me.
Anything beyond that is probably better handled by unique wargear items.
Can I ask what the Chapter Master build you are using for your assumptions is? You've mentioned a 3++ Eternal Warrior (which means the Shield Eternal, I think) and AP 2 attacks at Initiative (which you can only get with the Burning Blade, as far as I recall) and being able to kill four warbosses in a row (which doesn't seem possible with any CM build I've seen, unless you are getting buffed by another unit or something).
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Post by: koooaei
Yep, who told you that warbosses should be the best mellee fighter. Don't forget that being a 'close combat' army, which is not entirely true, orkses as a rule don't rely on extraordinary fighting capabilities and high-tech gear. But more on numbers and brutal strength, toughness and savagery. Both in offence and defence.
The fact that space marines captains kill warbosses in mellee is not even fluff-contradicting. On the opposite - it's quite a common scene. Many WAAAAAGHs have been ended like: "...and when all seemed lost, the most elite group led by a chapter master/captain/some random guy deepstriked/outflanked/fell from the sky in a drop pod in the face of an ork Warboss and his nobz retinue and slayed them".
It's alwayz like:
- "Sir! We've suffered qudrillion casualties, the planet is aflame and we have nowhere to retreat. And they've eaten our puppies."
- "Ok, it's drammatic enough to deepstrike allready"
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Post by: Waaaghpower
I didn't write down the exact Mathhammer I wrote, but here's the builds I compared, with an approximation of the Mathhammer.
Chapter Master w/ Bike, Thunder Hammer, Shield Eternal, Digital Weapons, and Artificer Armor. (And Iron Hands tactics.)
3 Warbosses, who get Bikes, Power Klaws, Cybork Bodies, and Attack Squigs.
I assumed that Orbital Bombardment causes 1 wound (It would likely be 2-3 or none at all, but it's hard to Mathhammer with a scatter like that,) and that's all the shooting damage. I also assume that nobody gets the charge. (Only way to be fair.)
Once in CC, the Chapter Master can instantly nullify 1 Warboss's attacks by issuing a challenge and making him decline. They get something like 1.4 wounds on him, and he causes somewhere around 2 wounds on them. That kills one Warboss.
The CM gets 2 wounds a turn. The Warboss causes about 1 wound. (Slightly under that, like .7, but rounded up because of the last roll.)
Round 3 of combat, therefore, he should on average have taken 3 wounds and caused 7. As long as he passes a single It Will Not Die roll, he will kill the Warbosses without dying.
(If you replace Bikes with Mega Armor and the TH with the Blade of AP2 at I, then the Warbosses get Pwned much harder because the Orbital Bombardment causes Instant Death, and hehits before them in CC which means any kill gets rid of 5 more attacks that would have hit. A CM could likely kill 4 Megabosses.
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Post by: Slayer222
I could send a unit of a million orks to a squad of purifiers with a champion that is using defend. The orks will loose far more points before anything even half decent can happen. This war boss is one of those times. Sorry but 40k isn't balanced and some units can't compare to others, the warboss on bike with claw are great against centurians but that is what it is.
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Post by: Waaaghpower
 Slayer222 wrote:I could send a unit of a million orks to a squad of purifiers with a champion that is using defend. The orks will loose far more points before anything even half decent can happen. This war boss is one of those times. Sorry but 40k isn't balanced and some units can't compare to others, the warboss on bike with claw are great against centurians but that is what it is.
Not really. I don't know what Defend does, but Purifiers die to shooting as easy as any other marine. 30 Shoota Boys will cause 3 dead Purifiers in the Shooting Phase. 100 Boys will wipe them off the map.
Also, Purifiers are a hard counter for hordes of Ork Boys. Chapter Masters are not a hard counter for 3 Warbosses.
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Post by: Slayer222
It was in refrance to points ie cleansing flame. and making an inst death barrage from the sky, or using weapons that are hard counter like 3++ save and ap2 is death to orks, SO it basicly is.
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Post by: koooaei
You can look out the wounds.
Besides, this scenario is pretty fine. A chapter master should have an upper hand over an ork warboss. Orkses value trophies taken from space marines for a reason. And chapter master is best of the best with many hundreeds of years of martial and tactical practice.
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Post by: Waaaghpower
Slayer, koooaei, I am having trouble deciphering your posts. But as much as I can understand them:
Slayer: Against Bikerbosses, the barrage doesn't cause Intant Death, AP2 is irrelevant, and a 3++ isn't so much a 'Hard counter' as it is 'General protection.' 3+ ignores Psychic powers is a hard counter. 3+ ignores damage is basic protection from all heavy weapons. Against Megabosses, the AP2 and Orbital Bombardment are a lot more powerful, but my math was against the option where a CM *didn't* instantlt wipe the floor. I have no idea what your first sentance was supposed to mean.
Koooai: I was assuming 3 Biker bosses and nothing else. If they had someone to LoS the wounds onto, the Chapter Master would get a retinue as well.
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Post by: koooaei
Waaaghpower wrote:
Koooai: I was assuming 3 Biker bosses and nothing else. If they had someone to LoS the wounds onto, the Chapter Master would get a retinue as well.
They can los each other
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Post by: Waaaghpower
koooaei wrote:Waaaghpower wrote:
Koooai: I was assuming 3 Biker bosses and nothing else. If they had someone to LoS the wounds onto, the Chapter Master would get a retinue as well.
They can los each other
Ah. I didn't think about that... In that case, the CM would die, but the Warbosses still would all die. (Striking at the same I can be a bitch like that.)
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Post by: Ashiraya
IWND? You mean you give him Gorgon Chain?
Yeah, if you put up Warbosses against that ugly son of a squig, they should damn well lose, for he is one of the ultimate melee powerhouses for his price, whereas warbosses are in the middle.
I do not see the problem with the warbosses being in the middle.
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Post by: Waaaghpower
BrotherHaraldus wrote:IWND? You mean you give him Gorgon Chain?
Yeah, if you put up Warbosses against that ugly son of a squig, they should damn well lose, for he is one of the ultimate melee powerhouses for his price, whereas warbosses are in the middle.
I do not see the problem with the warbosses being in the middle.
Iron Hands Chapter Tactics gives IWND. And I'm not comparing 1 Warboss, or even 1 at a time, I'm comparing 3 all at once. My problem, as I have repeatedly stated, is not that Warbosses are in the middle. It's that they habe absolutely nothing which can even get close to touching something on top.
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Post by: Ashiraya
To be fair, that is something that many other units have. Watch the Ork shooting units trying to touch what is on top on shooting, like Tau and Eldar.
Watch them die.
This is not a particular problem the Warboss has.
Indeed, not even an Ork-specific problem.
The warboss wrecks most low point HQs, which is fine. He is decent where he is.
If he is wrecked by the top units, then fix the disease, not the symptom...
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Post by: Waaaghpower
A warboss will, indeed, kill most low-point HQs. But can he kill three HQs who are about 2/3rds of his price (Assuming they are CC based, at least a little.) No. Heck, a couple of stock Librarians with axes (or Mauls, against a bike boss) have a very good chance of killing a boss. Sure, a Warboss will win against, like, Imperial Guard HQs. But against anyone designed for Close Combat, on a point-for-power basis he always loses.
And once again, I'm not proposing that these buffs should be free. I just wish that Orks had *someone* who could actually be awesome in CC against actual CC enemies, regardless of cost.
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Post by: Ashiraya
Ghazghkull.
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Post by: Wilytank
Not with Lootas, Shoota Boyz, and Dakkajets running/flying around!
If you want dedicated CC, play Warriors of Chaos in WHFB.
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Post by: koooaei
Come on, you can get a t6 4+, 4+ cover, 5++ 3 wound monster with 5 s10 ap2 ws5 attacks on one of the best bikes in a game for 135 pts. He can be backed up with one of the meanest and toughest cc bikes in a game - nobs with a painboy that can also shoot decently with lots of tl s5 goodness.
Comparing a warboss or even a set of warbosses with a tooled up chapter master is not correct. Ideally they shouldn't even meet on a battlefield. Feed 6 pts orkses to a chapter master and kill other stuff with your warboss. That's the way to go if you play as ork.
We're a tac mid-str army both in 40k and whfb. We're decent in both fields - shooting and mellee but not exceedingly well in any. U got to deal with it. It's much more important that your warboss can kill almost anything else except for such expensive and tough mellee-oriented things like chapter master. Golden rule: chop the shooty, shoot the choppy, tarpit which you can't kill. We CAN do it.
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Post by: Kain
I'd simply make a profile for Warbosses that have reached monstrous creature size rather than replace the normal warboss.
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Post by: Ashiraya
Mind you, Warbosses that are larger than Ghazghkull are very, very rare, and should be treated as such.
Snagrod is one of them afaik, but otherwise they are so rare as to be on a special character level.
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Post by: Kain
Gazghkull is twenty feet tall despite his orkoid hunched over posture, which makes him taller than a hive tyrant. He absolutely should be an MC.
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Post by: Ashiraya
WAT
Twenty feet, the fether is bigger than a Primarch?
Where did you get this from?
(And how can Yarrick wrestle with that...?)
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Post by: Kain
BrotherHaraldus wrote:WAT
Twenty feet, the fether is bigger than a Primarch?
Where did you get this from?
(And how can Yarrick wrestle with that...?)
Gazghkull is listed as six meters in height by any source that lists his size.
And Yarrick really doesn't, the one time he fought Gazghkull to my knowledge, he got his ass kicked and was captured.
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Post by: Ashiraya
Which sources list his size?
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Post by: Kain
It is what everyone quotes his height as being without exception, but currently I'm not seeing a quote for this on google, and I'm at work and thus don't have access to my books.
However, we do know from Last Chancers that Gazghkull was able to tear a Baneblade's turret right off it's chassis, and to properly reach the turret (baneblades are 6.3 meter tall tanks and there's a fair bit of space from the chassis to the turret from any angle) he'd need to be at about the height range I stated.
I'd say that him being at about eye-level with a baneblade's main gun would be a reasonable assumption for his height, and for his fluff, his profile is considerably unimpressive.
He should be able to wrench off the head of a Hive Tyrant in a single grab, squeeze, and throw motion or beat a generic Chaos Lord to death with his own retinue.
I'd suggest making him a monstrous creature, upping his stats to S6 T6 W5, maybe one more attack, and switching out that Big shoota for a supa-shoota. Yes this means that he gets S10 AP2 (maybe even AP1 could be argued as something he should have) at initiative and would beat the Swarmlord's face in (especially on the Waaagh!), but this is the same edition that has given us Iron Armed, Warp Speeded, 2++ rerollable Tzeentchilist Daemon Princes rocking an eternal blade and the Swarmlord sucks anyway.
Some would argue for S7 and T7 and more wounds and attacks and perhaps WS and I, but I'm feeling a bit conservative with regard to that today.
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Post by: Ashiraya
You gotta find me those quotes some time, for I am not convinced.
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Post by: Kain
Orks never stop growing as long as they keep on winning fights, and Gazghkull got where he was by beating up countless other warbosses and warlords as well as skilled warriors of the Imperium. It's not a particularly hard sell that a warboss who can force two thousand ships of escort to capital size, an unknown number of troop transports and roks, and twelve space hulks worth of Orks into obeying him.absolutely is a head taller than a Hive Tyrant.
Orks only respect size and battle prowess, and the biggest and baddest warbosses like Gazghkull, Blaktoof, and Snagrod who can force tens if not hundreds of billions (or even trillions) of Orks to follow their every word are almost certainly going to be much bigger than your average warboss.
I mean, Warboss Grimskull attacked a forgeworld with a force in the tens of millions (one spire had a million Orks committed to it) at least, and he's what? 10-12 feet tall? He's not a particularly large warboss, nor is his Waaagh! particularly big.
Gazghkull would need to be able to beat up or earn the respect of literally thousands of guys like him or even a fair deal bigger than he is.
Warlords who run interstellar empires with multiple systems under their belt like Blaktoof also need to be able to beat down literally everyone else in their empire and be prepared to beat down any challengers that pop up.
Really, the only big surprise is that there aren't warbosses who are much bigger than six meters given how much fighting they have to do. With how Orkoid growth cycles are described, you'd expect Warbosses able to engage in boxing matches with Hierophant bio-titans popping up every now and then.
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Post by: Charles Rampant
Warbosses are very cheap, and good at what they do. But honestly, the book as a hole needs some serious aid; the fact that people interpret the Ork army as a shooty one comes mostly from the players being forced to bring hordes of Lootas to compete. Hopefully the pendulum will swing back to melee Orks again (though I'm not hopeful).
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Post by: koooaei
Orkses don't grow at full rate all the time. The growth deminishes over time. Like if a warboss that's 2.5 meters high carries on a sucksessful year-long campaing full of choppin' and lootin' he can grow up to 3 meters. But when he succeeds in the next one with exact same sucksess, he'll grow to 3.2-3.3 metersm not 3.5. The bigger he is the slower he grows. So i believe there's a limit to ork size somewhere near the Ghazzy's current one.
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Post by: Perfect Organism
It occurs to me that the the reason warbosses are struggling against chapter masters so much is that chapter masters have access to really good invulnerable saves. If the warboss was rocking a 3++ or the CM was restricted to a lower save, things would be a lot more even. While ~70% of hits are just bouncing off, there's no way that a couple more attacks are going to help. Piling on better stats just lets you walk all over characters who aren't optimized to survive challenges (and makes you frankly ridiculous against normal troops), while still not being able to take on those who are.
The solution would seem to be either giving them some way of getting past invulnerable saves (rather dubious, but I'd accept a special item which made the enemy re-roll all saves or something) or an equivalent defence.
We've got a few options for ork defences; invulnerable saves can be justified by force fields, while various bionics could give better Feel No Pain, some kind of focus for Waaagh energy could give re-rolls and a nearby painboy might offer IWND. Make a bunch of items, each offering a fairly modest upgrade (I don't think orks should have anything as simply great as the Shield Eternal) for a reasonable price and let them stack, so that you can eventually get something like 4+ Inv. 4+ FNP, one re-rolled save a turn and IWND. That would bring you up to the point where a warboss could at least hold a Chapter Master or Daemon Prince up for a few rounds and inflict a couple of wounds before dying.
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Post by: Kain
koooaei wrote:Orkses don't grow at full rate all the time. The growth deminishes over time. Like if a warboss that's 2.5 meters high carries on a sucksessful year-long campaing full of choppin' and lootin' he can grow up to 3 meters. But when he succeeds in the next one with exact same sucksess, he'll grow to 3.2-3.3 metersm not 3.5. The bigger he is the slower he grows. So i believe there's a limit to ork size somewhere near the Ghazzy's current one.
On the other hand, there was a warboss capable of threatening the Emperor's life in a one on one conflict, and if the Primarch stats are anything to go by, this would require a warboss with bio-titan like stats.
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Post by: koooaei
 Kain wrote: koooaei wrote:Orkses don't grow at full rate all the time. The growth deminishes over time. Like if a warboss that's 2.5 meters high carries on a sucksessful year-long campaing full of choppin' and lootin' he can grow up to 3 meters. But when he succeeds in the next one with exact same sucksess, he'll grow to 3.2-3.3 metersm not 3.5. The bigger he is the slower he grows. So i believe there's a limit to ork size somewhere near the Ghazzy's current one.
On the other hand, there was a warboss capable of threatening the Emperor's life in a one on one conflict, and if the Primarch stats are anything to go by, this would require a warboss with bio-titan like stats.
It's not the matter of size. Horus was not nearly as huge as Ghazzy but still was able to lay down Emps. I'd say it's more of a psy-protection issue vs Emperror.
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Post by: Charles Rampant
What do you mean by "psy-protection issue"? The Warboss is, as I recall, described as having his arm around the Emperor's throat, requiring Horus to chop it off to save his life. (Shame he didn't just let it happen, save everyone the effort of the Heresy...) So this clearly suggests that there was at least one warboss - two if Ullanor can be considered the same - capable of threatening someone of the Emperor's stature. If we can take the stats for Horus, which show him as the Warmaster rather than his Chaos Ascendant form, then we might consider that to be around the level of the Emperor before the end of the Great Crusade. I don't think that this is accurate, but it is probably about as close as we can get right now. So:
WS 8, S 7, T 6, W 6, I 6, A 5
This would easily overwhelm Ghazzghul, assuming that he is allowed at least one AP2 weapon. What kind of a statline can threaten him?
Of course, the Heresy was an 'Age of Myth', and perhaps we shouldn't read too much into it. But while the Smurf codex might be chock full of stories of assassination runs that work, equally all those space marine helmets on the Ork models suggest that it doesn't always work.
Let us return to the basic point being made by the OP. The Orks are an assault centric army. They rely heavily on elite melee characters (Nobz, Bosses) to do major damage in those assaults. For the Warboss to become only mid-tier is a problem, for what precisely do the Orks do at that point? It is like if the Hive Tyrant became a mid-tier combatant, an obvious issue. Thus the comparison to Eldar is wrong, because nobody should be relying on a Phoenix Lord to win the combats by himself, it isn't how that army should work. For the Orks, in the current rules iteration, characters are what win combats. Those characters should thus, realistically, be pretty good at winning combats and challenges in order to make that rules conception work.
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Post by: Ashiraya
Do Orks get so much faster?
I mean, when you reach the speed of a Wych (Dark Eldar have been filmed by Guardsmen in-universe; they had to slow the film down something ridiculous just to see which faction it was who was attacking them) but we're talking a Carnifex-size Warboss, something is strange.
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Post by: PipeAlley
I think a lot of the problems with the boss could be fixed with a better Mob Rule/Get Him Boss special Ork Rule.
Orks should get re-rolls anytime they out number any opponent. 21 Orks fighting 5 Marines should give the Boss three re-rolls per turn.
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Post by: Clefty
I think what everyone needs to keep in mind is quite simply, Orks grow when there is "Sumfink worth fightin", Primarch sized Orks exist due to Primarch sized threats, during the Horus Heresy the Orks genetic nomenclature came into contact with Primarch sized threats far more regularly than in the Modern 40k as we know it.
There are of course, other prohibitive factors to be considered when assessing an Orks potential growth. As it stands, every sentient species in the galaxy knows to assassinate an upstart Warboss, it is the most efficient way to destabilize the Waaagh and cause the Ork selective process to begin anew. As the orks fight among-st in order to determine a new leader, the threat is more or less neutralized.
The next thing to keep in mind, is that the Orkoid ability to become stronger as they defeat their foes, is widely based more so on the need for there to be OTHER Orks pay witness. On the whole of the Orkoid species, the entirety of their Technology, Reproductive traits and adaptation comes from their Psychic genetics, the "The Drill that will Pierce the Heavens" so to speak.
IF, X Ork kills Y, (Y must in fact be stronger than X or be numerous enough to be considered Stronger than X, While surviving Y in combat so we subtract Y from X) and Z Orks Witness it (Z must be greater than the Psychic requirement of fueling the growth of X, while resulting in X being stronger than Y (Meaning ZY to represent the multiplication of Y's Strength by the Number of Orks who witness the event)) (IE, You need more Orks to fuel the Growth of a Warboss that kills a Chapter Master vs a Warboss that killed fifty Guardsmen)
X - Y + (ZY) = X²
To summarize, X minus Y plus Z times Y equals X Squared.
Warboss minus the Strength of the opposition plus The Number or Orks TIMES the strength of the Opposition will equal Warboss Squared.
Please note, this will ONLY result in a growth of the Warboss if Y is in FACT greater than X and is naturally going to plateau as the number of things " worth fightin " decrease.
Also, please note the relevance of Z, as it is the primary constant in gauging an Orks ability to grow, Orks don't emerge from the Warp after ten thousand years of fighting much stronger than they where originally without the help of the Dark Gods, due to the other orks dying out in the warp, thus weakening the "Drill That Will Pierce the Heavens" trait.
Also important to note, Z is more prohibitive than Y, as Y is always going to be a base level of statistical Strength, the greatest example we have would be the Emperor who has a ten base in all of his, stats (outside of attacks, which are subjective to the wargear equipped and special rules) in other words, if a Slugga Boy kills a Chapter Master and there are not sufficient Orks who witnessed the event to be equal to or greater than the psychic requirement of fueling the Slugga Boys growth off of the Chapter Masters Strength, then it pretty much results in a Nob or it has very little noticeable effect.
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Post by: Charles Rampant
Wait, what? :/
Bit harsh, to make me come here expecting Orky goodness and instead show me logic. Logic, of all things!
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Post by: Clefty
 Charles Rampant wrote:Wait, what? :/
Bit harsh, to make me come here expecting Orky goodness and instead show me logic. Logic, of all things!
To make it really simple, Orks Grow based on the Number of Orks who saw the Ork in question krump da git who was supposed to be stronger than the Ork who killed him.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
To be honest, sure, 2 Warbosses on bikes (roughly equivalent in cost to a tooled out Bike CM) probably won't kill said CM, but you know what they can do? Be in two places at once. They have a greater damage output than the Bike CM while not being as tanky, so the obvious use is to not run straight into the one thing that counters them and instead have them massacre other Marine units while something like Shoota Boyz or Lootas deal with the CM. You CAN still outmelee the CM as Orks, you just don't send your Elites in against someone designed to kill Elites in CC. You send in the next wave and drown him in attacks.
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Post by: Clefty
AlmightyWalrus wrote:To be honest, sure, 2 Warbosses on bikes (roughly equivalent in cost to a tooled out Bike CM) probably won't kill said CM, but you know what they can do? Be in two places at once. They have a greater damage output than the Bike CM while not being as tanky, so the obvious use is to not run straight into the one thing that counters them and instead have them massacre other Marine units while something like Shoota Boyz or Lootas deal with the CM. You CAN still outmelee the CM as Orks, you just don't send your Elites in against someone designed to kill Elites in CC. You send in the next wave and drown him in attacks.
Yeah, but Op is talking about the Validity of there being an upgrade to Warbosses to make them stronger, which is technically fair.
Here is what I propose, An Apocalypse only army wide special rule.
Might of the Waaagh: Any model with this special rule that kills a model in close combat, that is at least worth three times as much as as the Killers base price, may immediately be replaced with a Nob, Nobs may be upgraded to a Mad Doks, Big Meks or Warboss's if the Nob kills a model in close combat that is worth at least four times as much as a base line Nob is worth. (Important to note, Mad Doks, Big Meks and Gretchins may not be upgraded.)
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Post by: Ashiraya
They do not grow that fast.
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Post by: Clefty
It's apocalypse. Apocalypse only, when untold Orks march under the same banner, APOCALYPSE.
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Post by: Ashiraya
And?
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Post by: Clefty
As in Billions, Trillions of Orks on the same battle field, its entirely possible for these orks to accelerate their growth even further.
Sorry, I thought that was apparent.
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Post by: Ashiraya
It's not apparent, because it's incorrect.
Ghazghkull leads the biggest Waaagh! ever seen. He does not grow to twice his previous size over the course of a single battle. Neither does any of his Orks.
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Post by: Clefty
BrotherHaraldus wrote:It's not apparent, because it's incorrect.
Ghazghkull leads the biggest Waaagh! ever seen. He does not grow to twice his previous size over the course of a single battle. Neither does any of his Orks.
Did you read my previous post? The one about how EXACTLY the Ork growth works?
Just it case you didn't
"I think what everyone needs to keep in mind is quite simply, Orks grow when there is "Sumfink worth fightin", Primarch sized Orks exist due to Primarch sized threats, during the Horus Heresy the Orks genetic nomenclature came into contact with Primarch sized threats far more regularly than in the Modern 40k as we know it.
There are of course, other prohibitive factors to be considered when assessing an Orks potential growth. As it stands, every sentient species in the galaxy knows to assassinate an upstart Warboss, it is the most efficient way to destabilize the Waaagh and cause the Ork selective process to begin anew. As the orks fight among- st in order to determine a new leader, the threat is more or less neutralized.
The next thing to keep in mind, is that the Orkoid ability to become stronger as they defeat their foes, is widely based more so on the need for there to be OTHER Orks pay witness. On the whole of the Orkoid species, the entirety of their Technology, Reproductive traits and adaptation comes from their Psychic genetics, the "The Drill that will Pierce the Heavens" so to speak.
IF, X Ork kills Y, (Y must in fact be stronger than X or be numerous enough to be considered Stronger than X, While surviving Y in combat so we subtract Y from X) and Z Orks Witness it (Z must be greater than the Psychic requirement of fueling the growth of X, while resulting in X being stronger than Y (Meaning ZY to represent the multiplication of Y's Strength by the Number of Orks who witness the event)) (IE, You need more Orks to fuel the Growth of a Warboss that kills a Chapter Master vs a Warboss that killed fifty Guardsmen)
X - Y + (ZY) = X²
To summarize, X minus Y plus Z times Y equals X Squared.
Warboss minus the Strength of the opposition plus The Number or Orks TIMES the strength of the Opposition will equal Warboss Squared.
Please note, this will ONLY result in a growth of the Warboss if Y is in FACT greater than X and is naturally going to plateau as the number of things " worth fightin " decrease.
Also, please note the relevance of Z, as it is the primary constant in gauging an Orks ability to grow, Orks don't emerge from the Warp after ten thousand years of fighting much stronger than they where originally without the help of the Dark Gods, due to the other orks dying out in the warp, thus weakening the "Drill That Will Pierce the Heavens" trait.
Also important to note, Z is more prohibitive than Y, as Y is always going to be a base level of statistical Strength, the greatest example we have would be the Emperor who has a ten base in all of his, stats (outside of attacks, which are subjective to the wargear equipped and special rules) in other words, if a Slugga Boy kills a Chapter Master and there are not sufficient Orks who witnessed the event to be equal to or greater than the psychic requirement of fueling the Slugga Boys growth off of the Chapter Masters Strength, then it pretty much results in a Nob or it has very little noticeable effect."
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Post by: Grimskul
I have to agree with Brother Haraldus.
Ork growth is proportional to the foes they face and the kind of war that is fought. It is a gradual occurrence generally and again depends on the quality of the foe they are confronting, just being in conflict does not mean an Ork will grow immediately. By that logic whenever an Ork asserts dominance over rebellious grots he would grow a foot or two taller.
In cases like Ghazghkull's meteoric rise to power, keep in mind that he was growing so much because he was overcoming other tough Warbosses in the area which gave him the proportional boost to become so large given that they were such threats to his life. Not every Ork boy is going to go through a thing that similar since most attempting to do so would die and there aren't enough Warbosses for each boy to try doing so.
Also keep in mind fluff ≠ game mechanics. There are some things that can be represented on the table top but Ork Growth is not one of them. At most I could see you rolling on a pre-made table after battles in a campaign to see what buffs you got depending whether or not your Warboss survived and how many worthy foes you killed. But actively growing in game? No.
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Post by: Clefty
 Grimskul wrote:I have to agree with Brother Haraldus.
Ork growth is proportional to the foes they face and the kind of war that is fought. It is a gradual occurrence generally and again depends on the quality of the foe they are confronting, just being in conflict does not mean an Ork will grow immediately. By that logic whenever an Ork asserts dominance over rebellious grots he would grow a foot or two taller.
In cases like Ghazghkull's meteoric rise to power, keep in mind that he was growing so much because he was overcoming other tough Warbosses in the area which gave him the proportional boost to become so large given that they were such threats to his life. Not every Ork boy is going to go through a thing that similar since most attempting to do so would die and there aren't enough Warbosses for each boy to try doing so.
Yes, I explained the process already.
"Might of the Waaagh: Any model with this special rule that kills a model in close combat, that is at least worth three times as much as as the Killers base price, may immediately be replaced with a Nob, Nobs may be upgraded to a Mad Dok, Big Mek or Warboss, if the Nob kills a model in close combat that is worth at least four times as much as a base line Nob is worth. (Important to note, Mad Doks, Big Meks and Gretchins may not be upgraded.)"
Thats a eighteen point model for a boy to become a Nob and Thats an eighty point model for a Nob to be eligible to grow stronger. Automatically Appended Next Post: BrotherHaraldus wrote:It's not apparent, because it's incorrect.
Ghazghkull leads the biggest Waaagh! ever seen. He does not grow to twice his previous size over the course of a single battle. Neither does any of his Orks.
Oh, and by the way, just in case you again, decide to ignore my previous post, The Reason why Graz isn't Primarched sized is because there are no Primarch equivalent threats to overcome.
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Post by: Grimskul
My main point is that fluff-wise these things always seem to be gradual since I haven't found a specific source or citation stating that Orks immediately grow in size and strength after overcoming a significant foe.
By extension, game-wise this seems pretty tedious especially in an Apocalypse game where there's already a butt load of units you need to worry about. Then having to factor in points of the enemy's own models makes this even more cumbersome. Does this only apply to infantry models? Does this include vehicles? Does the dead model's cost include its wargear when comparing how many times it costs compared to the killer's base price?
When it comes to rules you want to keep it simple and this just makes things needlessly complicated for a game that's about rolling dice.
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Post by: Clefty
Only Infantry Characters: killed BY Infantry Orks, It only calculates their BASE Cost and Orks don't have a Cap to how fast their cells divide, all we know is the more Orks there are, the Faster they grow.
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Post by: Perfect Organism
 Clefty wrote:Orks don't have a Cap to how fast their cells divide, all we know is the more Orks there are, the Faster they grow.
You got a source for that, or is it just something that you came up with?
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Post by: Clefty
 Perfect Organism wrote: Clefty wrote:Orks don't have a Cap to how fast their cells divide, all we know is the more Orks there are, the Faster they grow.
You got a source for that, or is it just something that you came up with?
There is a book titled "Xenology" where a member of the Admech takes individual Orkoid cells and places them on pitri dishes, Pitri dishes with multiple seperate cells grows exponentially faster than large individual cells. He also studies a bunch of other Alien races including, Nids, Tau, Eldar, Kroot and Necrons. There are more but they aren't playable factions.
one seperate cell took sixteen hours to divide, two; eight hours, three; two point six hours ect.
He clearly stated that there was no apparent cap in the speed of cellular division. Then he goes on to talk about the idea that I posted. (I go into greater detail than he does, but he begins to expand upon their potential.) He also makes a mention of weaponizing Catachan level herbacide for use against Orks, apparently you can slow the fungal helix in their dna with extremely strong herbacide.
50541
Post by: Ashiraya
How is this related to the size of any threats?
I can perhaps buy that Orks were generally larger in 30K, probably because less ONLY WAR meant the really big bad warbosses lived longer (Well... The orks created tons of war, but they can only compensate so much without devolving into mindless anarchy)
But that they'd swell from boy size to Warboss size over the course of a single battle is just plainly implausible, and the Imperium has plenty of things even bigger than Primarchs (Like Knights). Nowhere has it been said that they grow bigger the bigger the foe is. Only that they grow from fighting, as in, grow from fighting at all.
You are free to take what you wish as your headcanon, of course, but at least acknowledge that it is.
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Post by: Clefty
BrotherHaraldus wrote:How is this related to the size of any threats?
I can perhaps buy that Orks were generally larger in 30K, probably because less ONLY WAR meant the really big bad warbosses lived longer (Well... The orks created tons of war, but they can only compensate so much without devolving into mindless anarchy)
But that they'd swell from boy size to Warboss size over the course of a single battle is just plainly implausible, and the Imperium has plenty of things even bigger than Primarchs (Like Knights). Nowhere has it been said that they grow bigger the bigger the foe is. Only that they grow from fighting, as in, grow from fighting at all.
You are free to take what you wish as your headcanon, of course, but at least acknowledge that it is.
You don't speak English very well, let me clear some thing up for you.
Primarch SIZED, isn't talking about how large they are, Primarchs are in a threat class in and of themselves, the enemies in 40k aren't as singularly powerful as they where around the time of the Horus Heresy.
They don't grow from just "fighting" they grow from fighting and WINNING, defeating things stronger than themselves.
The pecking order in Ork Society proves this mutliple times, the Ork that defeats the Nob, becomes the Nob. Ork PERCEPTION is what powers the growth of other Orks, if Orks think it works, it works.
Plain and simple.
Now you can go on ahead and "take what you wish as your headcanon"
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Post by: Charles Rampant
Clefty wrote:
You don't speak English very well, let me clear some thing up for you.
I'm going to be honest and say that, quite apart from how staggeringly rude this comment was, his posts are much clearer and easier to grasp than yours. Check yourself mate.
84277
Post by: Clefty
Charles Rampant wrote: Clefty wrote:
You don't speak English very well, let me clear some thing up for you.
I'm going to be honest and say that, quite apart from how staggeringly rude this comment was, his posts are much clearer and easier to grasp than yours. Check yourself mate.
It's what I observed. I have broken down what I know as much as I possibly can. Shrug.
Duly noted.
By the way, English isn't his first language. It's important to address the root of a misunderstanding and yes, he did misunderstand what Primarch sized insinuated, next time I will be more explicit when my explanations.
"The Drill That Will Pierce The Heavens" Is a Gurren Lagann Reference to doing the impossible. It is a Phrase.
Now, to understand what I know and have read, the Orks BELIEVE in something, which in turn, makes it a reality.
This effects, the very Orks themselves, by BELIEVING red makes it go faster, the Orks actually make that a reality.
Orks believe, that the Ork who Krumps the most gits (Proves himself) is the strongest Ork, that Ork is then strengthed by the collective psych believing him to be stronger, he becomes stronger. (stronger, not neccesarily limited to feats of strength. He is more POWERFUL as a result of this mass belief.)
Orks, only grow while there are enemies to kill who are stronger than they are. The Orks during M:30, had far more time to expand their Empires and test themselves against the most powerful foes the Galaxy had to offer. This resulted in Warbosses who where more powerful than their M:40 counterparts.
Primarchs and Primarch equivalents, where far more common in M:30, resulting in stronger warbosses.
That is as simple as it gets.
Sorry for being rude, It is really frustrating when attempting to convey something you are passionate about and being misunderstood at such a core level, due to a language barrier.
I really am sorry for being a massive asshat.
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Post by: Grimskul
Actually the whole thing where an ork believes things are true and therefore makes it happen is a common misconception.
Butcha puts it better than I can concerning this issue so here's a quote from him:
"Orks are all psychically active at a low level means that if an ork believes something works, it does.
No. Just no.
Even if the premise is determined to be true in-game, the presence of low-level psychic activity in all orks does not imbue each and every ork with the ability to totally bypass physics, nor does it indicate that orks can simply choose to believe in something and make it work.
It's well established that all orks have some niggling level of psychic ability. That alone means that individual orkish belief isn't enough to 'empower' a device to ignore the laws of physics. One ork doesn't generate much psychic energy. They have a low-level of psychic power. They aren't Eldar.
On top of that, even if orks do psychically manifest by empowering items to bypass the laws of physics, that doesn't follow that orks can simply 'choose' to believe something so that it happens. Belief is a pretty complicated state of affairs, and humans (and, presumably orks) can't just turn it on at will. Given that orks believe 'red wunz go fasta', and red vehicles do move faster for orks, doesn't indicate that orks painted their vehicles red, then decided to believe that make them faster.
Presumably, this arose from a more complicated state of affairs. Perhaps the Evil Suns, who tend to like red colors, and who have a love of speed and a lot of meks, painted a lot of vehicles red. These vehicles might have been faster because they were driven by orks with an affinity for speed, or orks who chose to spend a lot of teef on making a fast vehicle. Then, after orks observed many Evil Suns vehicles (which both tended to be red, and tended to be fast), a widespread belief in 'red=fast' arose in the ork psychology".
For a counter-example, here's my fluff idea for targeter squigs (as found on the Freebooter-looking Flash Git GW sells):
Targeter squigs are rotund, monocular, near-sighted squigs. They are reluctant to move, and prefer to sit immobile and wait for prey. When approached by a potential predator, the targeter squig emits a loud, piercing chirp, sounding much like an electronic ping or beep. If the predator continues to approach the squig, the targeter squig will continue to emit this unpleasant beeping, increasing in volume and frequency. If the predator approaches too closely to the squig, it will often vomit the contents of its stomach at the predator, void its bowels in the direction of the predator, or leap away awkwardly (and sometimes, all three).
Now, if an ork picks up a targeter squig, he's got a little pet that will sit on his shoulder. It's nearsighted, and has trouble with depth perception. If the ork is moving around, the squig will sometimes see something that alarms it, and emit a little panicked 'ping'. However, if the ork continues to move around, the squig might lose focus on the threat, and settle down, or see something else threatening. On the other hand, if the ork can muster up some concentration and stand fairly still, the targeter squig will focus on the prey and see it approaching. It will continue to ping and ping as the prey approaches. Ultimately, the squig will be emitting a panicked trill, if the enemy is fairly close. At this point, the ork knows that he had better shoot the enemy, or his pet will throw up or poop all over the place, so he shoots. As a result of standing still, the ork is actually in the best possible firing position (at least, for an ork), as he isn't running around, waving his arms, or generally being a boisterous ork.
So, even though the targeter squig doesn't actually 'target' the enemy, the behaviors that accompany the squig do benefit the ork's aim. As orks observe other orks using targeter squigs and being more accurate (for entirely the wrong reasons), a communal belief in the efficacy of targeter squigs arises in the orkish mind, to the extent that even in situations where the targeter squig should be of little help, an ork with one is measurably more accurate than one without.
See, it's not "Orks believe it so it's true!"
Also, keep in mind that Genetor Anzion, the one who claims that Orks belief makes things work in the Ork codex is a very subjective (and questionable) source given that its from an in-universe AND Imperial perspective whom we know often don't understand how science and technology works. Given that it's not an objective portrayal it should not be taken as absolute truth, especially given other fluff sources surrounding the Orks psychic resonance.
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Post by: Clefty
Grimskul wrote:Actually the whole thing where an ork believes things are true and therefore makes it happen is a common misconception.
Butcha puts it better than I can concerning this issue so here's a quote from him:
"Orks are all psychically active at a low level means that if an ork believes something works, it does.
No. Just no.
Even if the premise is determined to be true in-game, the presence of low-level psychic activity in all orks does not imbue each and every ork with the ability to totally bypass physics, nor does it indicate that orks can simply choose to believe in something and make it work.
It's well established that all orks have some niggling level of psychic ability. That alone means that individual orkish belief isn't enough to 'empower' a device to ignore the laws of physics. One ork doesn't generate much psychic energy. They have a low-level of psychic power. They aren't Eldar.
On top of that, even if orks do psychically manifest by empowering items to bypass the laws of physics, that doesn't follow that orks can simply 'choose' to believe something so that it happens. Belief is a pretty complicated state of affairs, and humans (and, presumably orks) can't just turn it on at will. Given that orks believe 'red wunz go fasta', and red vehicles do move faster for orks, doesn't indicate that orks painted their vehicles red, then decided to believe that make them faster.
Presumably, this arose from a more complicated state of affairs. Perhaps the Evil Suns, who tend to like red colors, and who have a love of speed and a lot of meks, painted a lot of vehicles red. These vehicles might have been faster because they were driven by orks with an affinity for speed, or orks who chose to spend a lot of teef on making a fast vehicle. Then, after orks observed many Evil Suns vehicles (which both tended to be red, and tended to be fast), a widespread belief in 'red=fast' arose in the ork psychology".
For a counter-example, here's my fluff idea for targeter squigs (as found on the Freebooter-looking Flash Git GW sells):
Targeter squigs are rotund, monocular, near-sighted squigs. They are reluctant to move, and prefer to sit immobile and wait for prey. When approached by a potential predator, the targeter squig emits a loud, piercing chirp, sounding much like an electronic ping or beep. If the predator continues to approach the squig, the targeter squig will continue to emit this unpleasant beeping, increasing in volume and frequency. If the predator approaches too closely to the squig, it will often vomit the contents of its stomach at the predator, void its bowels in the direction of the predator, or leap away awkwardly (and sometimes, all three).
Now, if an ork picks up a targeter squig, he's got a little pet that will sit on his shoulder. It's nearsighted, and has trouble with depth perception. If the ork is moving around, the squig will sometimes see something that alarms it, and emit a little panicked 'ping'. However, if the ork continues to move around, the squig might lose focus on the threat, and settle down, or see something else threatening. On the other hand, if the ork can muster up some concentration and stand fairly still, the targeter squig will focus on the prey and see it approaching. It will continue to ping and ping as the prey approaches. Ultimately, the squig will be emitting a panicked trill, if the enemy is fairly close. At this point, the ork knows that he had better shoot the enemy, or his pet will throw up or poop all over the place, so he shoots. As a result of standing still, the ork is actually in the best possible firing position (at least, for an ork), as he isn't running around, waving his arms, or generally being a boisterous ork.
So, even though the targeter squig doesn't actually 'target' the enemy, the behaviors that accompany the squig do benefit the ork's aim. As orks observe other orks using targeter squigs and being more accurate (for entirely the wrong reasons), a communal belief in the efficacy of targeter squigs arises in the orkish mind, to the extent that even in situations where the targeter squig should be of little help, an ork with one is measurably more accurate than one without.
See, it's not "Orks believe it so it's true!"
Also, keep in mind that Genetor Anzion, the one who claims that Orks belief makes things work in the Ork codex is a very subjective (and questionable) source given that its from an in-universe AND Imperial perspective whom we know often don't understand how science and technology works. Given that it's not an objective portrayal it should not be taken as absolute truth, especially given other fluff sources surrounding the Orks psychic resonance.
How do their guns function?
How do Orks survive in the Warp without Geller Fields?
How does the Ork reproductive cycle create matter from virtually nothing?
How is aforementioned Reproductive cycle completely self sufficient and capable of expanding indefinitely alongside having an infinite about of self sustainability?
Why are Orks capable of operating virtually any machine after looting it?
Why do RED Vehicles travel faster?
Why does Ork Technology almost always only Function in Ork hands?
73007
Post by: Grimskul
Guns like their shootas function by the same laws that other automatic weapons with solid-slug or explosive weaponry do, if in a more slapdash and haphazard way.
The shoota still has a firing mechanism like other guns with how it has a slot for an ammo clip, and due to the variability of different meks using different designs can be gas-powered or even just use basic things like gunpowder. In the Rogue Trader 40K RPG humans and other non-Orks can use Shootas and Sluggas but they become unreliable and more prone to jam unlike when they are wielded by an Ork whose psychic resonance allow to function more effectively.
For more complicated weapons like Kustom Mega Blastas and Shokk Attack Gunz it delves into the area of sci-fi so the issue is that that has to do more with their innate genetically designed understanding of engineering and mechanics than Orky psychic resonance especially given that these inventions are not that common so there isn't that big of an undercurrent of having a common belief of how it should work.
Actually orks get by pretty well in the Warp without Geller fields since they often can create their own force fields (one of the main things Orks are actually known for, check out BFG for more info) and often don't care since even in the Ork codex the Ork's resistance to Chaos mixed in with their own Orky mentality means they're willing to face the daemons that spawn inside Space Hulks and other Ork ships head on with glee, them often being the warm-up fighting before they reach a planet for them to launch a WAAAGH!
Define what you mean by the Ork reproductive cycle creating matter from nothing? They give off spores which then take root in environments that can support it like other fungus and grow off to eventually develop new Orks.
Also keep in mind this is sci-fi, and 40K sci-fi (basically fantasy in space) at that. If you're looking for any legitimate real-world explanations to provide scientific answers to everything remember this is a world where Daemons literally exist and feed off emotion and there are gigantic walking titans that have disproportionate impossible cathedrals built on them. Not to mention that there's literally magic via psykers. The point is that at the end of the day the idea that Orks are able to think things into existence is extremely limited at best and doesn't mean that if Orks collectively believe the world ends that it will. Otherwise you'd have already seen cases where Orks just believe that they win and they do because of it, doesn't work that way since it would make the stories about them pretty damn boring.
84277
Post by: Clefty
"Ork behavior is dominated by the WAAAGH!, a gestalt psychic field they generate that affects the Ork psyche, which allows Orks to instinctively recognize who is "bigga", and therefore who is in charge, since might makes right in Ork society. All Orks generate this field, and it grows stronger as the Orks enjoy themselves, generally while fighting, and as more of them congregate together in one geographical area. The WAAAGH! helps give momentum to the Orks' planetary assault campaigns, which are also known as WAAAGHs! (the Orks like to call a lot of things WAAAGH!s). Such a WAAAGH! is a cross between a holy crusade and a pub crawl, with a bit of genocide thrown in for good measure. Thousands of Orks will gather together, drawn to the power of a single dominant Ork called a Warboss or Warlord if the WAAAAGH! is particularly massive, who is bigger and more intelligent than the Orks around him. Then the Orks will set off to find an enemy to fight and defeat. Ork WAAAGHs! will sweep whole planetary systems away and destroy armies and fleets in tides of bloodlust and carnage, and only once the Orks have killed every available enemy will they start to fight amongst themselves again.
The Imperium of Man's Tech-priests have theorized that this gestalt psychic field also has a telekinetic or quantum probabilistic effect, allowing the seemingly ramshackle and poorly designed Ork technology to work as the Greenskins expect. It is believed that the reason this hypothesis came into existence is that the Imperium adopted the Adeptus Mechanicus' religious belief that aspects of a universal "Machine Spirit" inhabits all technology, and that this Machine Spirit serves Mankind at the command of the Machine God. If this is the case, without a Machine Spirit, Ork machines could not work, requiring some psychic cause to justify their often devastating effect. Furthermore, Mechanicus Genetor Lukas Anzion has noted that many Ork-built weapons will not function at all unless wielded by an Orkoid, possibly supporting this hypothesis."
84277
Post by: Clefty
Grimskul wrote:Actually the whole thing where an ork believes things are true and therefore makes it happen is a common misconception.
Butcha puts it better than I can concerning this issue so here's a quote from him:
"Orks are all psychically active at a low level means that if an ork believes something works, it does.
No. Just no.
Even if the premise is determined to be true in-game, the presence of low-level psychic activity in all orks does not imbue each and every ork with the ability to totally bypass physics, nor does it indicate that orks can simply choose to believe in something and make it work.
It's well established that all orks have some niggling level of psychic ability. That alone means that individual orkish belief isn't enough to 'empower' a device to ignore the laws of physics. One ork doesn't generate much psychic energy. They have a low-level of psychic power. They aren't Eldar.
On top of that, even if orks do psychically manifest by empowering items to bypass the laws of physics, that doesn't follow that orks can simply 'choose' to believe something so that it happens. Belief is a pretty complicated state of affairs, and humans (and, presumably orks) can't just turn it on at will. Given that orks believe 'red wunz go fasta', and red vehicles do move faster for orks, doesn't indicate that orks painted their vehicles red, then decided to believe that make them faster.
Presumably, this arose from a more complicated state of affairs. Perhaps the Evil Suns, who tend to like red colors, and who have a love of speed and a lot of meks, painted a lot of vehicles red. These vehicles might have been faster because they were driven by orks with an affinity for speed, or orks who chose to spend a lot of teef on making a fast vehicle. Then, after orks observed many Evil Suns vehicles (which both tended to be red, and tended to be fast), a widespread belief in 'red=fast' arose in the ork psychology".
For a counter-example, here's my fluff idea for targeter squigs (as found on the Freebooter-looking Flash Git GW sells):
Targeter squigs are rotund, monocular, near-sighted squigs. They are reluctant to move, and prefer to sit immobile and wait for prey. When approached by a potential predator, the targeter squig emits a loud, piercing chirp, sounding much like an electronic ping or beep. If the predator continues to approach the squig, the targeter squig will continue to emit this unpleasant beeping, increasing in volume and frequency. If the predator approaches too closely to the squig, it will often vomit the contents of its stomach at the predator, void its bowels in the direction of the predator, or leap away awkwardly (and sometimes, all three).
Now, if an ork picks up a targeter squig, he's got a little pet that will sit on his shoulder. It's nearsighted, and has trouble with depth perception. If the ork is moving around, the squig will sometimes see something that alarms it, and emit a little panicked 'ping'. However, if the ork continues to move around, the squig might lose focus on the threat, and settle down, or see something else threatening. On the other hand, if the ork can muster up some concentration and stand fairly still, the targeter squig will focus on the prey and see it approaching. It will continue to ping and ping as the prey approaches. Ultimately, the squig will be emitting a panicked trill, if the enemy is fairly close. At this point, the ork knows that he had better shoot the enemy, or his pet will throw up or poop all over the place, so he shoots. As a result of standing still, the ork is actually in the best possible firing position (at least, for an ork), as he isn't running around, waving his arms, or generally being a boisterous ork.
So, even though the targeter squig doesn't actually 'target' the enemy, the behaviors that accompany the squig do benefit the ork's aim. As orks observe other orks using targeter squigs and being more accurate (for entirely the wrong reasons), a communal belief in the efficacy of targeter squigs arises in the orkish mind, to the extent that even in situations where the targeter squig should be of little help, an ork with one is measurably more accurate than one without.
See, it's not "Orks believe it so it's true!"
Also, keep in mind that Genetor Anzion, the one who claims that Orks belief makes things work in the Ork codex is a very subjective (and questionable) source given that its from an in-universe AND Imperial perspective whom we know often don't understand how science and technology works. Given that it's not an objective portrayal it should not be taken as absolute truth, especially given other fluff sources surrounding the Orks psychic resonance.
Sure, I can see where those points are valid, but you can't explain the entirety of the Orkoid phenomena using those same points.
It seems like you are falling into an even more wide spread misnomer that Orks can simply "Choose to Believe in something" It isn't this awe inspiring power that they wield intelligently, it is an instinctual property of their genetics, it isn't a valid point to take the easiest form of explanation of the concept to be its core.
Here is a less known point, When the Orks obtained an Avatar of Khaine, why did the Avatar empower the Orks? When it couldn't empower the Eldar to the same effect?
The effect of the Orks gestalt Psyche was even MORE pronounced, the Avatar began to change into a more Orkish form, the Orks swelled with the power of what they believed to be an aspect of their Gods.
Now, lets presume that all Ork Technology functions on a scientific level, that inherently doesn't detract from the fact that Orks grow larger due to the psychic Gestalt of their race, It doesn't detract from the Perfect reproductive process that allows for an infinite amount of Orks to be spawned, and it can't feasibly explain why Orks grow faster when there are more Orks around them.
73007
Post by: Grimskul
Clefty wrote: Grimskul wrote:Actually the whole thing where an ork believes things are true and therefore makes it happen is a common misconception. Butcha puts it better than I can concerning this issue so here's a quote from him: "Orks are all psychically active at a low level means that if an ork believes something works, it does. No. Just no. Even if the premise is determined to be true in-game, the presence of low-level psychic activity in all orks does not imbue each and every ork with the ability to totally bypass physics, nor does it indicate that orks can simply choose to believe in something and make it work. It's well established that all orks have some niggling level of psychic ability. That alone means that individual orkish belief isn't enough to 'empower' a device to ignore the laws of physics. One ork doesn't generate much psychic energy. They have a low-level of psychic power. They aren't Eldar. On top of that, even if orks do psychically manifest by empowering items to bypass the laws of physics, that doesn't follow that orks can simply 'choose' to believe something so that it happens. Belief is a pretty complicated state of affairs, and humans (and, presumably orks) can't just turn it on at will. Given that orks believe 'red wunz go fasta', and red vehicles do move faster for orks, doesn't indicate that orks painted their vehicles red, then decided to believe that make them faster. Presumably, this arose from a more complicated state of affairs. Perhaps the Evil Suns, who tend to like red colors, and who have a love of speed and a lot of meks, painted a lot of vehicles red. These vehicles might have been faster because they were driven by orks with an affinity for speed, or orks who chose to spend a lot of teef on making a fast vehicle. Then, after orks observed many Evil Suns vehicles (which both tended to be red, and tended to be fast), a widespread belief in 'red=fast' arose in the ork psychology". For a counter-example, here's my fluff idea for targeter squigs (as found on the Freebooter-looking Flash Git GW sells): Targeter squigs are rotund, monocular, near-sighted squigs. They are reluctant to move, and prefer to sit immobile and wait for prey. When approached by a potential predator, the targeter squig emits a loud, piercing chirp, sounding much like an electronic ping or beep. If the predator continues to approach the squig, the targeter squig will continue to emit this unpleasant beeping, increasing in volume and frequency. If the predator approaches too closely to the squig, it will often vomit the contents of its stomach at the predator, void its bowels in the direction of the predator, or leap away awkwardly (and sometimes, all three). Now, if an ork picks up a targeter squig, he's got a little pet that will sit on his shoulder. It's nearsighted, and has trouble with depth perception. If the ork is moving around, the squig will sometimes see something that alarms it, and emit a little panicked 'ping'. However, if the ork continues to move around, the squig might lose focus on the threat, and settle down, or see something else threatening. On the other hand, if the ork can muster up some concentration and stand fairly still, the targeter squig will focus on the prey and see it approaching. It will continue to ping and ping as the prey approaches. Ultimately, the squig will be emitting a panicked trill, if the enemy is fairly close. At this point, the ork knows that he had better shoot the enemy, or his pet will throw up or poop all over the place, so he shoots. As a result of standing still, the ork is actually in the best possible firing position (at least, for an ork), as he isn't running around, waving his arms, or generally being a boisterous ork. So, even though the targeter squig doesn't actually 'target' the enemy, the behaviors that accompany the squig do benefit the ork's aim. As orks observe other orks using targeter squigs and being more accurate (for entirely the wrong reasons), a communal belief in the efficacy of targeter squigs arises in the orkish mind, to the extent that even in situations where the targeter squig should be of little help, an ork with one is measurably more accurate than one without. See, it's not "Orks believe it so it's true!" Also, keep in mind that Genetor Anzion, the one who claims that Orks belief makes things work in the Ork codex is a very subjective (and questionable) source given that its from an in-universe AND Imperial perspective whom we know often don't understand how science and technology works. Given that it's not an objective portrayal it should not be taken as absolute truth, especially given other fluff sources surrounding the Orks psychic resonance.
Sure, I can see where those points are valid, but you can't explain the entirety of the Orkoid phenomena using those same points. It seems like you are falling into an even more wide spread misnomer that Orks can simply "Choose to Believe in something" It isn't this awe inspiring power that they wield intelligently, it is an instinctual property of their genetics, it isn't a valid point to take the easiest form of explanation of the concept to be its core. Here is a less known point, When the Orks obtained an Avatar of Khaine, why did the Avatar empower the Orks? When it couldn't empower the Eldar to the same effect? The effect of the Orks gestalt Psyche was even MORE pronounced, the Avatar began to change into a more Orkish form, the Orks swelled with the power of what they believed to be an aspect of their Gods. Now, lets presume that all Ork Technology functions on a scientific level, that inherently doesn't detract from the fact that Orks grow larger due to the psychic Gestalt of their race, It doesn't detract from the Perfect reproductive process that allows for an infinite amount of Orks to be spawned, and it can't feasibly explain why Orks grow faster when there are more Orks around them.
Can you give me a citation where an Avatar of Khaine was obtained by the Orks? No offense but that sounds really made up, especially given that you can't exactly loot a daemon/warp-based entity. Also in the case of Genetor Anzion, I don't know if you noticed but I already mentioned him as an unreliable source. Mainly because the Mechanicum and their substituent parts are already known for being pretty damn ass-backwards when it comes to how technology actually works (what with Machine Spirits being simple AI at best) which only makes them even less reliable as a resource on xenos technology given that they can barely understand theirs to begin with but also because its just a hypothesis and again a non-objective viewpoint. Again, you're not going to find a legitimate scientific explanation for Orks in this. This is Fantasy in space, you can't explain what the hell or how the hell daemons work nor can you explain how Emperor-class titans don't tip over from how top-heavy they are with their nonsensical massive cathedral designed on top of their heads. Also I don't understand how gestalt psychic resonance would affect the Ork reproduction cycle given that I doubt spores would give off it at any level of resonance as a full grown ork would which would not be present in most cases when spores settle and develop. What exactly are you arguing?
84277
Post by: Clefty
I'm still hunting through my pdfs from where I read that, but for the life of me I can't recall the title.
"Also I don't understand how gestalt psychic resonance would affect the Ork reproduction cycle given that I doubt spores would give off it at any level of resonance as a full grown ork would which would not be present in most cases when spores settle and develop" Each cell in an Orkoid is part of the psychic field the Orks generate. Go read Xenology.
"What exactly are you arguing? "
I'm not really arguing. I am trying incredibly hard to explain myself to all comers and have been doing so for the past four or so hours.
What I don't understand is why you decide to hand wave my statements with
"Again, you're not going to find a legitimate scientific explanation for Orks in this. This is Fantasy in space, you can't explain what the hell or how the hell daemons work nor can you explain how Emperor-class titans don't tip over from how top-heavy they are with their nonsensical massive cathedral designed on top of their heads."
While maintaining that other canon is less reliable than others?
There isn't anything stopping me from hand waving your arguments by simply stating there is more canon supporting that Orks manipulate reality with their belief.
Which is a factual statement.
84277
Post by: Clefty
Grimskul wrote: Clefty wrote: Grimskul wrote:Actually the whole thing where an ork believes things are true and therefore makes it happen is a common misconception.
Butcha puts it better than I can concerning this issue so here's a quote from him:
"Orks are all psychically active at a low level means that if an ork believes something works, it does.
No. Just no.
Even if the premise is determined to be true in-game, the presence of low-level psychic activity in all orks does not imbue each and every ork with the ability to totally bypass physics, nor does it indicate that orks can simply choose to believe in something and make it work.
It's well established that all orks have some niggling level of psychic ability. That alone means that individual orkish belief isn't enough to 'empower' a device to ignore the laws of physics. One ork doesn't generate much psychic energy. They have a low-level of psychic power. They aren't Eldar.
On top of that, even if orks do psychically manifest by empowering items to bypass the laws of physics, that doesn't follow that orks can simply 'choose' to believe something so that it happens. Belief is a pretty complicated state of affairs, and humans (and, presumably orks) can't just turn it on at will. Given that orks believe 'red wunz go fasta', and red vehicles do move faster for orks, doesn't indicate that orks painted their vehicles red, then decided to believe that make them faster.
Presumably, this arose from a more complicated state of affairs. Perhaps the Evil Suns, who tend to like red colors, and who have a love of speed and a lot of meks, painted a lot of vehicles red. These vehicles might have been faster because they were driven by orks with an affinity for speed, or orks who chose to spend a lot of teef on making a fast vehicle. Then, after orks observed many Evil Suns vehicles (which both tended to be red, and tended to be fast), a widespread belief in 'red=fast' arose in the ork psychology".
For a counter-example, here's my fluff idea for targeter squigs (as found on the Freebooter-looking Flash Git GW sells):
Targeter squigs are rotund, monocular, near-sighted squigs. They are reluctant to move, and prefer to sit immobile and wait for prey. When approached by a potential predator, the targeter squig emits a loud, piercing chirp, sounding much like an electronic ping or beep. If the predator continues to approach the squig, the targeter squig will continue to emit this unpleasant beeping, increasing in volume and frequency. If the predator approaches too closely to the squig, it will often vomit the contents of its stomach at the predator, void its bowels in the direction of the predator, or leap away awkwardly (and sometimes, all three).
Now, if an ork picks up a targeter squig, he's got a little pet that will sit on his shoulder. It's nearsighted, and has trouble with depth perception. If the ork is moving around, the squig will sometimes see something that alarms it, and emit a little panicked 'ping'. However, if the ork continues to move around, the squig might lose focus on the threat, and settle down, or see something else threatening. On the other hand, if the ork can muster up some concentration and stand fairly still, the targeter squig will focus on the prey and see it approaching. It will continue to ping and ping as the prey approaches. Ultimately, the squig will be emitting a panicked trill, if the enemy is fairly close. At this point, the ork knows that he had better shoot the enemy, or his pet will throw up or poop all over the place, so he shoots. As a result of standing still, the ork is actually in the best possible firing position (at least, for an ork), as he isn't running around, waving his arms, or generally being a boisterous ork.
So, even though the targeter squig doesn't actually 'target' the enemy, the behaviors that accompany the squig do benefit the ork's aim. As orks observe other orks using targeter squigs and being more accurate (for entirely the wrong reasons), a communal belief in the efficacy of targeter squigs arises in the orkish mind, to the extent that even in situations where the targeter squig should be of little help, an ork with one is measurably more accurate than one without.
See, it's not "Orks believe it so it's true!"
Also, keep in mind that Genetor Anzion, the one who claims that Orks belief makes things work in the Ork codex is a very subjective (and questionable) source given that its from an in-universe AND Imperial perspective whom we know often don't understand how science and technology works. Given that it's not an objective portrayal it should not be taken as absolute truth, especially given other fluff sources surrounding the Orks psychic resonance.
Sure, I can see where those points are valid, but you can't explain the entirety of the Orkoid phenomena using those same points.
It seems like you are falling into an even more wide spread misnomer that Orks can simply "Choose to Believe in something" It isn't this awe inspiring power that they wield intelligently, it is an instinctual property of their genetics, it isn't a valid point to take the easiest form of explanation of the concept to be its core.
Here is a less known point, When the Orks obtained an Avatar of Khaine, why did the Avatar empower the Orks? When it couldn't empower the Eldar to the same effect?
The effect of the Orks gestalt Psyche was even MORE pronounced, the Avatar began to change into a more Orkish form, the Orks swelled with the power of what they believed to be an aspect of their Gods.
Now, lets presume that all Ork Technology functions on a scientific level, that inherently doesn't detract from the fact that Orks grow larger due to the psychic Gestalt of their race, It doesn't detract from the Perfect reproductive process that allows for an infinite amount of Orks to be spawned, and it can't feasibly explain why Orks grow faster when there are more Orks around them.
Can you give me a citation where an Avatar of Khaine was obtained by the Orks? No offense but that sounds really made up, especially given that you can't exactly loot a daemon/warp-based entity.
Also in the case of Genetor Anzion, I don't know if you noticed but I already mentioned him as an unreliable source. Mainly because the Mechanicum and their substituent parts are already known for being pretty damn ass-backwards when it comes to how technology actually works (what with Machine Spirits being simple AI at best) which only makes them even less reliable as a resource on xenos technology given that they can barely understand theirs to begin with but also because its just a hypothesis and again a non-objective viewpoint.
Again, you're not going to find a legitimate scientific explanation for Orks in this. This is Fantasy in space, you can't explain what the hell or how the hell daemons work nor can you explain how Emperor-class titans don't tip over from how top-heavy they are with their nonsensical massive cathedral designed on top of their heads. Also I don't understand how gestalt psychic resonance would affect the Ork reproduction cycle given that I doubt spores would give off it at any level of resonance as a full grown ork would which would not be present in most cases when spores settle and develop. What exactly are you arguing?
">The humans had betrayed them. He had deluded himself with the belief that it was possible to forge real links with some individuals of that species. He had hoped, to his eternal shame, that the humans would come to the planet and defeat the orks. He had been wrong. Even if he had the power to take this thing from the planet, what would he do except complete the humans’ victory?
>If he waited, the orks would return. They had no choice. They could not resist the siren call even if they were not conscious of it. And the humans had been weakened by this first conflict.
>Before him, he saw the contours of vengeance given physical shape.
>Rising from the chamber floor was a throne. Seated on it was an immense statue. Its form was distorted, vague, incomplete. It was a body without features. The Lileathan world had been abandoned too long, and what had been left behind had lost its essential connection to the eldar. Endlessly consumed by its fury, the shard of Kaela Mensha Khaine now poured energy into another race, one with an inexhaustible hunger for war.
>From this single point, far beneath the surface of Lepidus Prime, wrath called to the orks.
>A being of absolute aggression was on the planet’s threshold. Beneath the surface of the planet, the fragment of a shattered god responded. There were none of the deity’s worshippers at hand to propitiate and redirect the inchoate hunger for war that the shard embodied. But now, near at hand were more of the beings who not only did not resist the shard’s desires, but were eager for its gifts, even if they did not yet know it. They were pure. They were aggression and war and nothing else. They fed the shard with violence, and it repaid them with the capacity for even greater feats of destruction.
>The shard’s essence reached out and caressed the kroozer. It was drawn inside, called by the enormous potential of the creature whose will the ship obeyed. The creature was found, and mindless energy underwent a kind of ecstasy. It poured itself into the orks and, most of all, into a monster whose capacity for violence was infinite.
>In the darkness of its temple, the shard vibrated and glowed. It called to the monster. It fed him and promised more. It promised him power on the same scale as his dreams of rage.
>The moon of ill-omen had not just risen over the planet. It had risen over the galaxy.
>Something entered the ship. Ha’garen felt it at an atavistic level. There was an apprehension of the alien and the divine, but no more. The orks had a much stronger reaction. All of them paused where they stood, and roared. The collective shout drowned out the machines. The roar was triumph, glee, ferocity, power. It was the sound of a species on the path to apotheosis. For a moment, the orks seemed to glow. No light shone from them, but they radiated energy in an almost palpable form. And they grew. That, Ha’garen could tell, was no illusion. Armour strained against expanding chests and swelling limbs. The footsoldiers, the greenskins that the Space Marines saw as little more than cannon fodder, suddenly had the mass and ferocity of elite units. The officers were turning into monsters of war. And the Overfiend...
>Ha’garen was reluctant to apply a word to what the Overfiend was becoming. He did not want to used a word like ‘god’.
>The undertow was hard to resist."
-Stormseer
-Forgemaster
-Shadow-captain
FOUND THE SOURCE. HA. HA. HA. HA. HA. I'M NOT CRAZY, YOU ARE CRAZY.
50541
Post by: Ashiraya
Clefty wrote: BrotherHaraldus wrote:How is this related to the size of any threats?
I can perhaps buy that Orks were generally larger in 30K, probably because less ONLY WAR meant the really big bad warbosses lived longer (Well... The orks created tons of war, but they can only compensate so much without devolving into mindless anarchy)
But that they'd swell from boy size to Warboss size over the course of a single battle is just plainly implausible, and the Imperium has plenty of things even bigger than Primarchs (Like Knights). Nowhere has it been said that they grow bigger the bigger the foe is. Only that they grow from fighting, as in, grow from fighting at all.
You are free to take what you wish as your headcanon, of course, but at least acknowledge that it is.
You don't speak English very well, let me clear some thing up for you.
Primarch SIZED, isn't talking about how large they are, Primarchs are in a threat class in and of themselves, the enemies in 40k aren't as singularly powerful as they where around the time of the Horus Heresy.
They don't grow from just "fighting" they grow from fighting and WINNING, defeating things stronger than themselves.
The pecking order in Ork Society proves this mutliple times, the Ork that defeats the Nob, becomes the Nob. Ork PERCEPTION is what powers the growth of other Orks, if Orks think it works, it works.
Plain and simple.
Now you can go on ahead and "take what you wish as your headcanon"
When a Boy defeats a Nob, he becomes of Nob. Nob is a rank, however. If he was strong enough to beat the Nob, he probably was roughly the same size anyway. He doesn't magically just pop up to Nob size by defeating one.
Complaining on my English is unnecessary, I think. I am not a native speaker, but surely any errors of mine are not that blatant?
84277
Post by: Clefty
BrotherHaraldus wrote: Clefty wrote: BrotherHaraldus wrote:How is this related to the size of any threats?
I can perhaps buy that Orks were generally larger in 30K, probably because less ONLY WAR meant the really big bad warbosses lived longer (Well... The orks created tons of war, but they can only compensate so much without devolving into mindless anarchy)
But that they'd swell from boy size to Warboss size over the course of a single battle is just plainly implausible, and the Imperium has plenty of things even bigger than Primarchs (Like Knights). Nowhere has it been said that they grow bigger the bigger the foe is. Only that they grow from fighting, as in, grow from fighting at all.
You are free to take what you wish as your headcanon, of course, but at least acknowledge that it is.
You don't speak English very well, let me clear some thing up for you.
Primarch SIZED, isn't talking about how large they are, Primarchs are in a threat class in and of themselves, the enemies in 40k aren't as singularly powerful as they where around the time of the Horus Heresy.
They don't grow from just "fighting" they grow from fighting and WINNING, defeating things stronger than themselves.
The pecking order in Ork Society proves this mutliple times, the Ork that defeats the Nob, becomes the Nob. Ork PERCEPTION is what powers the growth of other Orks, if Orks think it works, it works.
Plain and simple.
Now you can go on ahead and "take what you wish as your headcanon"
When a Boy defeats a Nob, he becomes of Nob. Nob is a rank, however. If he was strong enough to beat the Nob, he probably was roughly the same size anyway. He doesn't magically just pop up to Nob size by defeating one.
Complaining on my English is unnecessary, I think. I am not a native speaker, but surely any errors of mine are not that blatant?
Yeah that really was a mistake of mine, I became annoyed when my whole point was misconstrued due to me not being more concise.
"When a Boy defeats a Nob, he becomes of Nob. Nob is a rank, however. If he was strong enough to beat the Nob, he probably was roughly the same size anyway. He doesn't magically just pop up to Nob size by defeating one."
He does actually. That is very literally how it works. It usually takes a day, but more or less it is magic.
73007
Post by: Grimskul
Clefty wrote: Grimskul wrote: Clefty wrote: Grimskul wrote:Actually the whole thing where an ork believes things are true and therefore makes it happen is a common misconception.
Butcha puts it better than I can concerning this issue so here's a quote from him:
"Orks are all psychically active at a low level means that if an ork believes something works, it does.
No. Just no.
Even if the premise is determined to be true in-game, the presence of low-level psychic activity in all orks does not imbue each and every ork with the ability to totally bypass physics, nor does it indicate that orks can simply choose to believe in something and make it work.
It's well established that all orks have some niggling level of psychic ability. That alone means that individual orkish belief isn't enough to 'empower' a device to ignore the laws of physics. One ork doesn't generate much psychic energy. They have a low-level of psychic power. They aren't Eldar.
On top of that, even if orks do psychically manifest by empowering items to bypass the laws of physics, that doesn't follow that orks can simply 'choose' to believe something so that it happens. Belief is a pretty complicated state of affairs, and humans (and, presumably orks) can't just turn it on at will. Given that orks believe 'red wunz go fasta', and red vehicles do move faster for orks, doesn't indicate that orks painted their vehicles red, then decided to believe that make them faster.
Presumably, this arose from a more complicated state of affairs. Perhaps the Evil Suns, who tend to like red colors, and who have a love of speed and a lot of meks, painted a lot of vehicles red. These vehicles might have been faster because they were driven by orks with an affinity for speed, or orks who chose to spend a lot of teef on making a fast vehicle. Then, after orks observed many Evil Suns vehicles (which both tended to be red, and tended to be fast), a widespread belief in 'red=fast' arose in the ork psychology".
For a counter-example, here's my fluff idea for targeter squigs (as found on the Freebooter-looking Flash Git GW sells):
Targeter squigs are rotund, monocular, near-sighted squigs. They are reluctant to move, and prefer to sit immobile and wait for prey. When approached by a potential predator, the targeter squig emits a loud, piercing chirp, sounding much like an electronic ping or beep. If the predator continues to approach the squig, the targeter squig will continue to emit this unpleasant beeping, increasing in volume and frequency. If the predator approaches too closely to the squig, it will often vomit the contents of its stomach at the predator, void its bowels in the direction of the predator, or leap away awkwardly (and sometimes, all three).
Now, if an ork picks up a targeter squig, he's got a little pet that will sit on his shoulder. It's nearsighted, and has trouble with depth perception. If the ork is moving around, the squig will sometimes see something that alarms it, and emit a little panicked 'ping'. However, if the ork continues to move around, the squig might lose focus on the threat, and settle down, or see something else threatening. On the other hand, if the ork can muster up some concentration and stand fairly still, the targeter squig will focus on the prey and see it approaching. It will continue to ping and ping as the prey approaches. Ultimately, the squig will be emitting a panicked trill, if the enemy is fairly close. At this point, the ork knows that he had better shoot the enemy, or his pet will throw up or poop all over the place, so he shoots. As a result of standing still, the ork is actually in the best possible firing position (at least, for an ork), as he isn't running around, waving his arms, or generally being a boisterous ork.
So, even though the targeter squig doesn't actually 'target' the enemy, the behaviors that accompany the squig do benefit the ork's aim. As orks observe other orks using targeter squigs and being more accurate (for entirely the wrong reasons), a communal belief in the efficacy of targeter squigs arises in the orkish mind, to the extent that even in situations where the targeter squig should be of little help, an ork with one is measurably more accurate than one without.
See, it's not "Orks believe it so it's true!"
Also, keep in mind that Genetor Anzion, the one who claims that Orks belief makes things work in the Ork codex is a very subjective (and questionable) source given that its from an in-universe AND Imperial perspective whom we know often don't understand how science and technology works. Given that it's not an objective portrayal it should not be taken as absolute truth, especially given other fluff sources surrounding the Orks psychic resonance.
Sure, I can see where those points are valid, but you can't explain the entirety of the Orkoid phenomena using those same points.
It seems like you are falling into an even more wide spread misnomer that Orks can simply "Choose to Believe in something" It isn't this awe inspiring power that they wield intelligently, it is an instinctual property of their genetics, it isn't a valid point to take the easiest form of explanation of the concept to be its core.
Here is a less known point, When the Orks obtained an Avatar of Khaine, why did the Avatar empower the Orks? When it couldn't empower the Eldar to the same effect?
The effect of the Orks gestalt Psyche was even MORE pronounced, the Avatar began to change into a more Orkish form, the Orks swelled with the power of what they believed to be an aspect of their Gods.
Now, lets presume that all Ork Technology functions on a scientific level, that inherently doesn't detract from the fact that Orks grow larger due to the psychic Gestalt of their race, It doesn't detract from the Perfect reproductive process that allows for an infinite amount of Orks to be spawned, and it can't feasibly explain why Orks grow faster when there are more Orks around them.
Can you give me a citation where an Avatar of Khaine was obtained by the Orks? No offense but that sounds really made up, especially given that you can't exactly loot a daemon/warp-based entity.
Also in the case of Genetor Anzion, I don't know if you noticed but I already mentioned him as an unreliable source. Mainly because the Mechanicum and their substituent parts are already known for being pretty damn ass-backwards when it comes to how technology actually works (what with Machine Spirits being simple AI at best) which only makes them even less reliable as a resource on xenos technology given that they can barely understand theirs to begin with but also because its just a hypothesis and again a non-objective viewpoint.
Again, you're not going to find a legitimate scientific explanation for Orks in this. This is Fantasy in space, you can't explain what the hell or how the hell daemons work nor can you explain how Emperor-class titans don't tip over from how top-heavy they are with their nonsensical massive cathedral designed on top of their heads. Also I don't understand how gestalt psychic resonance would affect the Ork reproduction cycle given that I doubt spores would give off it at any level of resonance as a full grown ork would which would not be present in most cases when spores settle and develop. What exactly are you arguing?
">The humans had betrayed them. He had deluded himself with the belief that it was possible to forge real links with some individuals of that species. He had hoped, to his eternal shame, that the humans would come to the planet and defeat the orks. He had been wrong. Even if he had the power to take this thing from the planet, what would he do except complete the humans’ victory?
>If he waited, the orks would return. They had no choice. They could not resist the siren call even if they were not conscious of it. And the humans had been weakened by this first conflict.
>Before him, he saw the contours of vengeance given physical shape.
>Rising from the chamber floor was a throne. Seated on it was an immense statue. Its form was distorted, vague, incomplete. It was a body without features. The Lileathan world had been abandoned too long, and what had been left behind had lost its essential connection to the eldar. Endlessly consumed by its fury, the shard of Kaela Mensha Khaine now poured energy into another race, one with an inexhaustible hunger for war.
>From this single point, far beneath the surface of Lepidus Prime, wrath called to the orks.
>A being of absolute aggression was on the planet’s threshold. Beneath the surface of the planet, the fragment of a shattered god responded. There were none of the deity’s worshippers at hand to propitiate and redirect the inchoate hunger for war that the shard embodied. But now, near at hand were more of the beings who not only did not resist the shard’s desires, but were eager for its gifts, even if they did not yet know it. They were pure. They were aggression and war and nothing else. They fed the shard with violence, and it repaid them with the capacity for even greater feats of destruction.
>The shard’s essence reached out and caressed the kroozer. It was drawn inside, called by the enormous potential of the creature whose will the ship obeyed. The creature was found, and mindless energy underwent a kind of ecstasy. It poured itself into the orks and, most of all, into a monster whose capacity for violence was infinite.
>In the darkness of its temple, the shard vibrated and glowed. It called to the monster. It fed him and promised more. It promised him power on the same scale as his dreams of rage.
>The moon of ill-omen had not just risen over the planet. It had risen over the galaxy.
>Something entered the ship. Ha’garen felt it at an atavistic level. There was an apprehension of the alien and the divine, but no more. The orks had a much stronger reaction. All of them paused where they stood, and roared. The collective shout drowned out the machines. The roar was triumph, glee, ferocity, power. It was the sound of a species on the path to apotheosis. For a moment, the orks seemed to glow. No light shone from them, but they radiated energy in an almost palpable form. And they grew. That, Ha’garen could tell, was no illusion. Armour strained against expanding chests and swelling limbs. The footsoldiers, the greenskins that the Space Marines saw as little more than cannon fodder, suddenly had the mass and ferocity of elite units. The officers were turning into monsters of war. And the Overfiend...
>Ha’garen was reluctant to apply a word to what the Overfiend was becoming. He did not want to used a word like ‘god’.
>The undertow was hard to resist."
-Stormseer
-Forgemaster
-Shadow-captain
FOUND THE SOURCE. HA. HA. HA. HA. HA. I'M NOT CRAZY, YOU ARE CRAZY.
Whoa, calm down. Jeez, I just wanted to know where your claim originated from. You say you were sorry for being an asshat one moment yet you continue your unnecessary aggressiveness. No need to get all hostile because I didn't believe you initially. The problem with this is that with this example the Avatar of Khaine DOES empower the Eldar as it does the Orks, even in game the aura it gives off makes all Eldar within 12" Fearless. The only reason why the Orks were empowered in this case is because it had not gone through the proper Eldar sacrificial rites of the Young King to properly awaken it, it is because of this that it found the only other outlet it could find; the Orks. The Orks themselves did not activate nor bend it to their will via psychic resonance, the Avatar chose them (not the other way around) and simply bestowed his own rage to them, thus making him a sort of idol for them. Needless to say this was NOT a case of the Ork's belief and subsequent psychic resonance working to empower themselves via the Avatar of Khaine.
And again I'm merely stating the limits of an Ork's psychic resonance, it helps facilitate the functioning of technology to a certain extent but cannot make things a reality simply by virtue of them believing in it beyond reason. At most those are not normal Orks and are Weirdboyz who can fully tap into the psychic wellspring of collective Ork consciousness.
84277
Post by: Clefty
No no! It took me three hours to find the source xD
I was starting to think I was full of it. That last bit is a joke.
84277
Post by: Clefty
Grimskul wrote: Clefty wrote: Grimskul wrote: Clefty wrote: Grimskul wrote:Actually the whole thing where an ork believes things are true and therefore makes it happen is a common misconception.
Butcha puts it better than I can concerning this issue so here's a quote from him:
"Orks are all psychically active at a low level means that if an ork believes something works, it does.
No. Just no.
Even if the premise is determined to be true in-game, the presence of low-level psychic activity in all orks does not imbue each and every ork with the ability to totally bypass physics, nor does it indicate that orks can simply choose to believe in something and make it work.
It's well established that all orks have some niggling level of psychic ability. That alone means that individual orkish belief isn't enough to 'empower' a device to ignore the laws of physics. One ork doesn't generate much psychic energy. They have a low-level of psychic power. They aren't Eldar.
On top of that, even if orks do psychically manifest by empowering items to bypass the laws of physics, that doesn't follow that orks can simply 'choose' to believe something so that it happens. Belief is a pretty complicated state of affairs, and humans (and, presumably orks) can't just turn it on at will. Given that orks believe 'red wunz go fasta', and red vehicles do move faster for orks, doesn't indicate that orks painted their vehicles red, then decided to believe that make them faster.
Presumably, this arose from a more complicated state of affairs. Perhaps the Evil Suns, who tend to like red colors, and who have a love of speed and a lot of meks, painted a lot of vehicles red. These vehicles might have been faster because they were driven by orks with an affinity for speed, or orks who chose to spend a lot of teef on making a fast vehicle. Then, after orks observed many Evil Suns vehicles (which both tended to be red, and tended to be fast), a widespread belief in 'red=fast' arose in the ork psychology".
For a counter-example, here's my fluff idea for targeter squigs (as found on the Freebooter-looking Flash Git GW sells):
Targeter squigs are rotund, monocular, near-sighted squigs. They are reluctant to move, and prefer to sit immobile and wait for prey. When approached by a potential predator, the targeter squig emits a loud, piercing chirp, sounding much like an electronic ping or beep. If the predator continues to approach the squig, the targeter squig will continue to emit this unpleasant beeping, increasing in volume and frequency. If the predator approaches too closely to the squig, it will often vomit the contents of its stomach at the predator, void its bowels in the direction of the predator, or leap away awkwardly (and sometimes, all three).
Now, if an ork picks up a targeter squig, he's got a little pet that will sit on his shoulder. It's nearsighted, and has trouble with depth perception. If the ork is moving around, the squig will sometimes see something that alarms it, and emit a little panicked 'ping'. However, if the ork continues to move around, the squig might lose focus on the threat, and settle down, or see something else threatening. On the other hand, if the ork can muster up some concentration and stand fairly still, the targeter squig will focus on the prey and see it approaching. It will continue to ping and ping as the prey approaches. Ultimately, the squig will be emitting a panicked trill, if the enemy is fairly close. At this point, the ork knows that he had better shoot the enemy, or his pet will throw up or poop all over the place, so he shoots. As a result of standing still, the ork is actually in the best possible firing position (at least, for an ork), as he isn't running around, waving his arms, or generally being a boisterous ork.
So, even though the targeter squig doesn't actually 'target' the enemy, the behaviors that accompany the squig do benefit the ork's aim. As orks observe other orks using targeter squigs and being more accurate (for entirely the wrong reasons), a communal belief in the efficacy of targeter squigs arises in the orkish mind, to the extent that even in situations where the targeter squig should be of little help, an ork with one is measurably more accurate than one without.
See, it's not "Orks believe it so it's true!"
Also, keep in mind that Genetor Anzion, the one who claims that Orks belief makes things work in the Ork codex is a very subjective (and questionable) source given that its from an in-universe AND Imperial perspective whom we know often don't understand how science and technology works. Given that it's not an objective portrayal it should not be taken as absolute truth, especially given other fluff sources surrounding the Orks psychic resonance.
Sure, I can see where those points are valid, but you can't explain the entirety of the Orkoid phenomena using those same points.
It seems like you are falling into an even more wide spread misnomer that Orks can simply "Choose to Believe in something" It isn't this awe inspiring power that they wield intelligently, it is an instinctual property of their genetics, it isn't a valid point to take the easiest form of explanation of the concept to be its core.
Here is a less known point, When the Orks obtained an Avatar of Khaine, why did the Avatar empower the Orks? When it couldn't empower the Eldar to the same effect?
The effect of the Orks gestalt Psyche was even MORE pronounced, the Avatar began to change into a more Orkish form, the Orks swelled with the power of what they believed to be an aspect of their Gods.
Now, lets presume that all Ork Technology functions on a scientific level, that inherently doesn't detract from the fact that Orks grow larger due to the psychic Gestalt of their race, It doesn't detract from the Perfect reproductive process that allows for an infinite amount of Orks to be spawned, and it can't feasibly explain why Orks grow faster when there are more Orks around them.
Can you give me a citation where an Avatar of Khaine was obtained by the Orks? No offense but that sounds really made up, especially given that you can't exactly loot a daemon/warp-based entity.
Also in the case of Genetor Anzion, I don't know if you noticed but I already mentioned him as an unreliable source. Mainly because the Mechanicum and their substituent parts are already known for being pretty damn ass-backwards when it comes to how technology actually works (what with Machine Spirits being simple AI at best) which only makes them even less reliable as a resource on xenos technology given that they can barely understand theirs to begin with but also because its just a hypothesis and again a non-objective viewpoint.
Again, you're not going to find a legitimate scientific explanation for Orks in this. This is Fantasy in space, you can't explain what the hell or how the hell daemons work nor can you explain how Emperor-class titans don't tip over from how top-heavy they are with their nonsensical massive cathedral designed on top of their heads. Also I don't understand how gestalt psychic resonance would affect the Ork reproduction cycle given that I doubt spores would give off it at any level of resonance as a full grown ork would which would not be present in most cases when spores settle and develop. What exactly are you arguing?
">The humans had betrayed them. He had deluded himself with the belief that it was possible to forge real links with some individuals of that species. He had hoped, to his eternal shame, that the humans would come to the planet and defeat the orks. He had been wrong. Even if he had the power to take this thing from the planet, what would he do except complete the humans’ victory?
>If he waited, the orks would return. They had no choice. They could not resist the siren call even if they were not conscious of it. And the humans had been weakened by this first conflict.
>Before him, he saw the contours of vengeance given physical shape.
>Rising from the chamber floor was a throne. Seated on it was an immense statue. Its form was distorted, vague, incomplete. It was a body without features. The Lileathan world had been abandoned too long, and what had been left behind had lost its essential connection to the eldar. Endlessly consumed by its fury, the shard of Kaela Mensha Khaine now poured energy into another race, one with an inexhaustible hunger for war.
>From this single point, far beneath the surface of Lepidus Prime, wrath called to the orks.
>A being of absolute aggression was on the planet’s threshold. Beneath the surface of the planet, the fragment of a shattered god responded. There were none of the deity’s worshippers at hand to propitiate and redirect the inchoate hunger for war that the shard embodied. But now, near at hand were more of the beings who not only did not resist the shard’s desires, but were eager for its gifts, even if they did not yet know it. They were pure. They were aggression and war and nothing else. They fed the shard with violence, and it repaid them with the capacity for even greater feats of destruction.
>The shard’s essence reached out and caressed the kroozer. It was drawn inside, called by the enormous potential of the creature whose will the ship obeyed. The creature was found, and mindless energy underwent a kind of ecstasy. It poured itself into the orks and, most of all, into a monster whose capacity for violence was infinite.
>In the darkness of its temple, the shard vibrated and glowed. It called to the monster. It fed him and promised more. It promised him power on the same scale as his dreams of rage.
>The moon of ill-omen had not just risen over the planet. It had risen over the galaxy.
>Something entered the ship. Ha’garen felt it at an atavistic level. There was an apprehension of the alien and the divine, but no more. The orks had a much stronger reaction. All of them paused where they stood, and roared. The collective shout drowned out the machines. The roar was triumph, glee, ferocity, power. It was the sound of a species on the path to apotheosis. For a moment, the orks seemed to glow. No light shone from them, but they radiated energy in an almost palpable form. And they grew. That, Ha’garen could tell, was no illusion. Armour strained against expanding chests and swelling limbs. The footsoldiers, the greenskins that the Space Marines saw as little more than cannon fodder, suddenly had the mass and ferocity of elite units. The officers were turning into monsters of war. And the Overfiend...
>Ha’garen was reluctant to apply a word to what the Overfiend was becoming. He did not want to used a word like ‘god’.
>The undertow was hard to resist."
-Stormseer
-Forgemaster
-Shadow-captain
FOUND THE SOURCE. HA. HA. HA. HA. HA. I'M NOT CRAZY, YOU ARE CRAZY.
Whoa, calm down. Jeez, I just wanted to know where your claim originated from. You say you were sorry for being an asshat one moment yet you continue your unnecessary aggressiveness. No need to get all hostile because I didn't believe you initially. The problem with this is that with this example the Avatar of Khaine DOES empower the Eldar as it does the Orks, even in game the aura it gives off makes all Eldar within 12" Fearless. The only reason why the Orks were empowered in this case is because it had not gone through the proper Eldar sacrificial rites of the Young King to properly awaken it, it is because of this that it found the only other outlet it could find; the Orks. The Orks themselves did not activate nor bend it to their will via psychic resonance, the Avatar chose them (not the other way around) and simply bestowed his own rage to them, thus making him a sort of idol for them. Needless to say this was NOT a case of the Ork's belief and subsequent psychic resonance working to empower themselves via the Avatar of Khaine.
And again I'm merely stating the limits of an Ork's psychic resonance, it helps facilitate the functioning of technology to a certain extent but cannot make things a reality simply by virtue of them believing in it beyond reason. At most those are not normal Orks and are Weirdboyz who can fully tap into the psychic wellspring of collective Ork consciousness.
The effect is greater due to their psychic resonance, the Avatar allowed them to grow larger faster, which is the fundamental underpinning of why I mention it in the first place.
The Eldar become FEARLESS, fearlessness isn't an enhancement of phsyical properties, The Orks become, STRONGER in the presence of their Avatar. You have not refuted the fact that the effects of the Avatar is far more extreme on the Orks than it is for the Eldar. (Who are supposed to be the most psychically attuned creatures in the galaxy)
It's also important to note that the Avatar of Khaine was in fact transforming and no longer had any facial features, it is highly implied that this is due to the Orks consciousness reshaping their deity, as it is not stated anywhere else, that an Avatar would simply choose to change its features.
There are even other abandoned Avatars who never undergo any sort of change when in isolation.
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