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So, I realize it's an artifact of being a 4th ed. codex, but Warbosses should really be a lot stronger. So, I propose an optional upgrade to the Warboss:
Warlord (+50 Points)
The Warlord gains +1 Ws, S, W, I, and Ld.
Aditionally, when calling a WAAAGH, he and his unit may run and charge in the same turn, though they may not reroll the dice when checking charge distance.

Eh? Any good?

Sure, I'd say 50 points is probably a reasonable cost for all those gubbins.

You've got a WS6 S6 Ork Warboss with a beefy 4 wounds, 5 Initiative and 10 Ld?

Give that Boss a Big Choppa! Four attacks at ST 8 at Initiative 5 is pretty awesome! Yeah you'll get armor saves, but he'll be Instant Death-ing anything T4 or lower on a failed save, which is nice.

The only thing that might go too far is the +1 initiative, just because that makes him as fast as an Eldar... which is just sort of un-fluffy. I can't imagine an Ork as quick as an Eldar.

I personally also feel that the Big Choppa should be AP4, but that's just me. :/

Waaaghpower wrote:
I personally also feel that the Big Choppa should be AP4, but that's just me. :/

Might change it next codex this summer tough

Personally, I'd like to see the Big Choppa have a rule similar to the old Choppa rule. Though instead of treating all armor as 4+, I'd say give a -1 to all armor saves.

Murrdox wrote:
Personally, I'd like to see the Big Choppa have a rule similar to the old Choppa rule. Though instead of treating all armor as 4+, I'd say give a -1 to all armor saves.

Mhm as i recall it, it reduced the armor to 4+ no matter what armor you had, i remember the face on my friends terminator

It's essentially something like sm chapter master upgrade. What do they get for 40 points? +1 wound, +1 attack, orbital bombardment...
Now i suggest why don't we go the same route? Extra str won't be used cause u're going for a pk anywayz. U also won't use +1 toughness cause u'll be in a unit, so majority toughness neglects this bonus too. Why not give him similar stuff to sm chapter master? Remember, orkses tend to adopt enemie's stuff that impresses them! Deff dreads, battlewagonz, stompas are all the result of this.

Warlord: +1 wound, +1 attack, *Orbital Garbagement - 40 pts

*Orbital Garbagement - drops garbage from the orbit.
Heavy D3 s10 ap-, Ordnance Barrage, Orbital

 koooaei wrote:
It's essentially something like sm chapter master upgrade. What do they get for 40 points? +1 wound, +1 attack, orbital bombardment...
Now i suggest why don't we go the same route? Extra str won't be used cause u're going for a pk anywayz. U also won't use +1 toughness cause u'll be in a unit, so majority toughness neglects this bonus too. Why not give him similar stuff to sm chapter master? Remember, orkses tend to adopt enemie's stuff that impresses them! Deff dreads, battlewagonz, stompas are all the result of this.

Warlord: +1 wound, +1 attack, *Orbital Garbagement - 40 pts

*Orbital Garbagement - drops garbage from the orbit.
Heavy D3 s10 ap-, Ordnance Barrage, Orbital

No extra T, because they would be incredibly OP in certain settings. A Warboss, on his own, on a Warbike? You've got a T7 monstrosity. (Charge him into S5 or worse units, you're being wounded on 6s.)

But comparing him to a CM doesn't work, because the CM is far more powerful. A decked-out Chapter Master has Eternal Warrior, and a 2+3++ save. There's simply nothing a Warboss can take to compete with that level of power. Comparing them just leaves you sad and disappointed.

Waaaghpower wrote:
So, I realize it's an artifact of being a 4th ed. codex, but Warbosses should really be a lot stronger.

Why on earth should they be stronger? Sure, they tend to die to really powerful close-combat characters, but that's consistent with the background and fair enough for their points cost.

^ That. Warbosses turn most other unnamed characters to dust with cybork parts and a PK, which really is enough.

Because Orks are a Close Combat army, but even our strongest, most capable fighter still loses against almost every other dedicated CC model.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Because Orks are a Close Combat army, but even our strongest, most capable fighter still loses against almost every other dedicated CC model.

And your Warbosses are cheap as chips by comparison. Ghazghkull still krumps people really well.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Because Orks are a Close Combat army, but even our strongest, most capable fighter still loses against almost every other dedicated CC model.

And your Warbosses are cheap as chips by comparison. Ghazghkull still krumps people really well.

An 80-100 point difference isn't 'Cheap as chips' on 150+ point models, especially when 1 Chapter Master or Daemon Prince will kill 2 Warbosses every time. We have to decide between durability or mobility, everyone else gets both. Warbosses also generally have less attacks, no way to hut at I with any power, less durability even with a Mega Armor build, and are super easy to kill no matter what you bring.

Warbosses have less attacks? That's news to me. Warboss has four attacks base, chapter master has four attacks base. Neither get to use a second weapon (assuming the boss has a klaw and the CM has a shield), but the WB can buy an extra attack with an Attack Squig.

Warboss can't cause serious damage at Initiative? Who can? Virtually every weapon in the game with AP 2 is also Unwieldy. It's not that likely that you will die in one round of attacks even from a really tooled-up character anyway, so you still get to hit back most of the time.

Super-easy to kill? Well, they aren't as tough as a Chapter Master on a bike with Artificer Armour and the Shield Eternal backed up by an Apothecary, but not much is. Three wounds, Toughness 5/6, a 5+ Invulnerable and a 2+ armour save or easy access to Feel No Pain is hardly delicate. Very few characters can reliably kill that before he has a chance to hit them a few times.

I'm comparing them in general to Wolf Lords, Chapter Masters, and Daemon Princes.
Chapter Masters and DP both get AP2 at initiative. Wolf Lords and DP get more attacks. All three get mobility and durability, not either/or.
Also, it's T5 with a 2+ or T6 with a 4+ and FNP. Either they're incredibly vulnerable to a single S10 shot, or else will go down to Bolter fire because average squad toughness still won't be 6.

Warbosses are supposed to be and are tough, but they are cheaper than, supposed to and do lose to Daemon Princes and Chapter Masters!

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Warbosses are supposed to be and are tough, but they are cheaper than, supposed to and do lose to Daemon Princes and Chapter Masters!

Even with my proposed fix they wouldn't be able to foght CMs or DPs, they'd just not be as completely outclassed.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Because Orks are a Close Combat army, but even our strongest, most capable fighter still loses against almost every other dedicated CC model.

And your Warbosses are cheap as chips by comparison. Ghazghkull still krumps people really well.

An 80-100 point difference isn't 'Cheap as chips' on 150+ point models, especially when 1 Chapter Master or Daemon Prince will kill 2 Warbosses every time. We have to decide between durability or mobility, everyone else gets both. Warbosses also generally have less attacks, no way to hut at I with any power, less durability even with a Mega Armor build, and are super easy to kill no matter what you bring.

An 80-100 point difference certainly is still cheap as chips, because you're not paying 80-100 points more for your model. Further, for the record, Klaw bosses hit at S10. No, you might not win against a beatstick 100 points more expensive than you, but why on earth should you?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Because Orks are a Close Combat army, but even our strongest, most capable fighter still loses against almost every other dedicated CC model.

And your Warbosses are cheap as chips by comparison. Ghazghkull still krumps people really well.

An 80-100 point difference isn't 'Cheap as chips' on 150+ point models, especially when 1 Chapter Master or Daemon Prince will kill 2 Warbosses every time. We have to decide between durability or mobility, everyone else gets both. Warbosses also generally have less attacks, no way to hut at I with any power, less durability even with a Mega Armor build, and are super easy to kill no matter what you bring.

An 80-100 point difference certainly is still cheap as chips, because you're not paying 80-100 points more for your model. Further, for the record, Klaw bosses hit at S10. No, you might not win against a beatstick 100 points more expensive than you, but why on earth should you?

My problem, as I've said, is not that a Warboss loses to a CM. It's that 3 Warbosses all working together still lose to a CM. Or a DP. Or a Wolf Lord.
EDIT: With Mega Armor, CM, Wolf Lords or DPs can reasonably fight 4 or 5 Warbosses, even. Against Bikes, the CM performs slightly better.

Ya, as many others have said I do not believe the upgrade as necessary.

How is a Daemon Prince more durable than a warboss when it's got the same Toughness as a footslogging warboss, a 5+ Invulnerable save, just like a warboss, no Eternal Warrior and can't get a 2+ save or Feel No Pain? It's got one extra wound, but it can't hide in a unit, so it's pretty vulnerable to getting shot to pieces. The only reason it easily beats the warboss is because it's a monstrous creature and monstrous creatures are astonishingly good in challenges.

As for the Chapter Master, you're not only comparing a character which costs many more points, you're also using two unique relics to get him good enough to make the warboss look bad. Surely it would be fairer to compare special character warbosses to that kind of build? With special characters, you've got Ghaz (Eternal Warrior, more wounds, more attacks, Armour Indomitus equivalent) and Zhadsnark (Strength 10, AP 2 attacks at Initiative) which seem to offer the kind of thing you are looking for.

Ghazkull still loses. After his durability wears off, he's screwed. And I'm assuming 1 relic, and a PF.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the DP, I'm assuming one with Iron Arm.(DPs are iften spammed, so this is not unreasonable.) Besides, just being a flyer gives a massive advantage for durability.

Eldar are in the same boat. Put up a special phoenix lord vs ghazkull and they loose. Put up a war boss vs autarch and they loose. Put up eldar cc against anything you mentioned and they loose. Their are just somethings that armies can't do, its not right but it happens.

The prime difference being, ELDAR IS NOT A CLOSE COMBAT ARMY. Orks are. And yet, if you put our very best Close Combat model against any other dedicated close combat model or unit, he loses.

Eldar are a specialisation army, meaning that our close combat should be the best of the best in cc, while gakky everywhere else, however they are better shooting their pistols than going into cc.

Warbosses are not bad.

They are not top tier, but they are firmly middle of the road, which is not a bad place to be.

They do not need buffs.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Warbosses are not bad.

They are not top tier, but they are firmly middle of the road, which is not a bad place to be.

They do not need buffs.

I'm not proposing a buff, I'm proposing an upgrade. The Warboss isn't awful. But, Orks are supposed to be a dedicated Close Combat army, and the leader of a WAAAGH! Is supposed to be nigh-unstoppable in Close Combat. I'm proposing just that.

Orks are not meant to be a dedicated close combat army. They have never been a dedicated close combat army. Ork shooting has always been important in the background (this is the race that always calls for 'more dakka', that had pages and pages in their first sourcebook dedicated to custom guns, that has more and better shooting specialist units than close combat specialist units) and on the tabletop.

Even if they were, that doesn't mean that our HQ has to be the best as close combat. Tau and Imperial Guard are 'shooty' armies, but their warlords generally don't have access to amazing firepower compared to other races. I have absolutely no idea where you get the impression that warbosses are meant to be 'nigh-unstoppable' in close combat, when the background is full of examples of warbosses who were stopped in close combat by characters who aren't exactly close combat gods themselves; Pedro Kantor, Ezekiel, Farsight and Commisar Yarrick have all killed warbosses in hand-to-hand fights.

If you do want to make a generic 'warlord' option, I suggest modelling it as closely as possible on Ghazghkull's statline and not giving it any generic abilities which make it significantly better than Ghazghkull.

For points cost, you can work backwards from Ghazghkull. He's got a 2+ invulnerable save which only works for one turn, probably worth around 40 points (the difference between armour indomitus and artificer arour), Eternal Warrior (or the equivalent at least) probably worth around another 20-30 points, an extra attack on the charge (less than 15 points, since an attack squig is better) and an improved Waaagh (pretty worthless). He's also got around 60 points of generic ork wargear (mega-armour, bosspole, cybork body, big shoota). That implies that for around 30 points, you should get +1 WS, +1 W and +1 Attack, which seems pretty fair to me.

Anything beyond that is probably better handled by unique wargear items.

Can I ask what the Chapter Master build you are using for your assumptions is? You've mentioned a 3++ Eternal Warrior (which means the Shield Eternal, I think) and AP 2 attacks at Initiative (which you can only get with the Burning Blade, as far as I recall) and being able to kill four warbosses in a row (which doesn't seem possible with any CM build I've seen, unless you are getting buffed by another unit or something).

Yep, who told you that warbosses should be the best mellee fighter. Don't forget that being a 'close combat' army, which is not entirely true, orkses as a rule don't rely on extraordinary fighting capabilities and high-tech gear. But more on numbers and brutal strength, toughness and savagery. Both in offence and defence.
The fact that space marines captains kill warbosses in mellee is not even fluff-contradicting. On the opposite - it's quite a common scene. Many WAAAAAGHs have been ended like: "...and when all seemed lost, the most elite group led by a chapter master/captain/some random guy deepstriked/outflanked/fell from the sky in a drop pod in the face of an ork Warboss and his nobz retinue and slayed them".
It's alwayz like:
- "Sir! We've suffered qudrillion casualties, the planet is aflame and we have nowhere to retreat. And they've eaten our puppies."
- "Ok, it's drammatic enough to deepstrike allready"

I didn't write down the exact Mathhammer I wrote, but here's the builds I compared, with an approximation of the Mathhammer.
Chapter Master w/ Bike, Thunder Hammer, Shield Eternal, Digital Weapons, and Artificer Armor. (And Iron Hands tactics.)
3 Warbosses, who get Bikes, Power Klaws, Cybork Bodies, and Attack Squigs.

I assumed that Orbital Bombardment causes 1 wound (It would likely be 2-3 or none at all, but it's hard to Mathhammer with a scatter like that,) and that's all the shooting damage. I also assume that nobody gets the charge. (Only way to be fair.)

Once in CC, the Chapter Master can instantly nullify 1 Warboss's attacks by issuing a challenge and making him decline. They get something like 1.4 wounds on him, and he causes somewhere around 2 wounds on them. That kills one Warboss.

The CM gets 2 wounds a turn. The Warboss causes about 1 wound. (Slightly under that, like .7, but rounded up because of the last roll.)

Round 3 of combat, therefore, he should on average have taken 3 wounds and caused 7. As long as he passes a single It Will Not Die roll, he will kill the Warbosses without dying.
(If you replace Bikes with Mega Armor and the TH with the Blade of AP2 at I, then the Warbosses get Pwned much harder because the Orbital Bombardment causes Instant Death, and hehits before them in CC which means any kill gets rid of 5 more attacks that would have hit. A CM could likely kill 4 Megabosses.