Ork Warlord

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**PipeAlley**

I think a lot of the problems with the boss could be fixed with a better Mob Rule/Get Him Boss special Ork Rule.

Orks should get re-rolls anytime they out number any opponent. 21 Orks fighting 5 Marines should give the Boss three re-rolls per turn.

**Clefty**

I think what everyone needs to keep in mind is quite simply, Orks grow when there is "Sumfink worth fightin", Primarch sized Orks exist due to Primarch sized threats, during the Horus Heresy the Orks genetic nomenclature came into contact with Primarch sized threats far more regularly than in the Modern 40k as we know it.

There are of course, other prohibitive factors to be considered when assessing an Orks potential growth. As it stands, every sentient species in the galaxy knows to assassinate an upstart Warboss, it is the most efficient way to destabilize the Waaagh and cause the Ork selective process to begin anew. As the orks fight among-st in order to determine a new leader, the threat is more or less neutralized.

The next thing to keep in mind, is that the Orkoid ability to become stronger as they defeat their foes, is widely based more so on the need for there to be OTHER Orks pay witness. On the whole of the Orkoid species, the entirety of their Technology, Reproductive traits and adaptation comes from their Psychic genetics, the "The Drill that will Pierce the Heavens" so to speak.

IF, X Ork kills Y, (Y must in fact be stronger than X or be numerous enough to be considered Stronger than X, While surviving Y in combat so we subtract Y from X) and Z Orks Witness it (Z must be greater than the Psychic requirement of fueling the growth of X, while resulting in X being stronger than Y (Meaning ZY to represent the multiplication of Y's Strength by the Number of Orks who witness the event)) (IE, You need more Orks to fuel the Growth of a Warboss that kills a Chapter Master vs a Warboss that killed fifty Guardsmen)

X - Y + (ZY) = X²

To summarize, X minus Y plus Z times Y equals X Squared.

Warboss minus the Strength of the opposition plus The Number or Orks TIMES the strength of the Opposition will equal Warboss Squared.

Please note, this will ONLY result in a growth of the Warboss if Y is in FACT greater than X and is naturally going to plateau as the number of things " worth fightin " decrease.

Also, please note the relevance of Z, as it is the primary constant in gauging an Orks ability to grow, Orks don't emerge from the Warp after ten thousand years of fighting much stronger than they where originally without the help of the Dark Gods, due to the other orks dying out in the warp, thus weakening the "Drill That Will Pierce the Heavens" trait.

Also important to note, Z is more prohibitive than Y, as Y is always going to be a base level of statistical Strength, the greatest example we have would be the Emperor who has a ten base in all of his, stats (outside of attacks, which are subjective to the wargear equipped and special rules) in other words, if a Slugga Boy kills a Chapter Master and there are not sufficient Orks who witnessed the event to be equal to or greater than the psychic requirement of fueling the Slugga Boys growth off of the Chapter Masters Strength, then it pretty much results in a Nob or it has very little noticeable effect.

**Charles Rampant**

Wait, what? :/

Bit harsh, to make me come here expecting Orky goodness and instead show me logic. Logic, of all things!

**Clefty**

Charles Rampant wrote:
Wait, what? :/

Bit harsh, to make me come here expecting Orky goodness and instead show me logic. Logic, of all things!

To make it really simple, Orks Grow based on the Number of Orks who saw the Ork in question krump da git who was supposed to be stronger than the Ork who killed him.

**AlmightyWalrus**

To be honest, sure, 2 Warbosses on bikes (roughly equivalent in cost to a tooled out Bike CM) probably won't kill said CM, but you know what they can do? Be in two places at once. They have a greater damage output than the Bike CM while not being as tanky, so the obvious use is to not run straight into the one thing that counters them and instead have them massacre other Marine units while something like Shoota Boyz or Lootas deal with the CM. You CAN still outmelee the CM as Orks, you just don't send your Elites in against someone designed to kill Elites in CC. You send in the next wave and drown him in attacks.

**Clefty**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
To be honest, sure, 2 Warbosses on bikes (roughly equivalent in cost to a tooled out Bike CM) probably won't kill said CM, but you know what they can do? Be in two places at once. They have a greater damage output than the Bike CM while not being as tanky, so the obvious use is to not run straight into the one thing that counters them and instead have them massacre other Marine units while something like Shoota Boyz or Lootas deal with the CM. You CAN still outmelee the CM as Orks, you just don't send your Elites in against someone designed to kill Elites in CC. You send in the next wave and drown him in attacks.

Yeah, but Op is talking about the Validity of there being an upgrade to Warbosses to make them stronger, which is technically fair.

Here is what I propose, An Apocalypse only army wide special rule.

Might of the Waaagh: Any model with this special rule that kills a model in close combat, that is at least worth three times as much as as the Killers base price, may immediately be replaced with a Nob, Nobs may be upgraded to a Mad Doks, Big Meks or Warboss's if the Nob kills a model in close combat that is worth at least four times as much as a base line Nob is worth. (Important to note, Mad Doks, Big Meks and Gretchins may not be upgraded.)

**Ashiraya**

They do not grow that fast.

**Clefty**

It's apocalypse. Apocalypse only, when untold Orks march under the same banner, APOCALYPSE.

**Ashiraya**

And?

**Clefty**

BrotherHaraldus wrote:
And?

As in Billions, Trillions of Orks on the same battle field, its entirely possible for these orks to accelerate their growth even further.

Sorry, I thought that was apparent.

**Ashiraya**

It's not apparent, because it's incorrect.

Ghazghkull leads the biggest Waaagh! ever seen. He does not grow to twice his previous size over the course of a single battle. Neither does any of his Orks.

**Clefty**

BrotherHaraldus wrote:
It's not apparent, because it's incorrect.

Ghazghkull leads the biggest Waaagh! ever seen. He does not grow to twice his previous size over the course of a single battle. Neither does any of his Orks.

Did you read my previous post? The one about how EXACTLY the Ork growth works?

Just it case you didn't

"I think what everyone needs to keep in mind is quite simply, Orks grow when there is "Sumfink worth fightin", Primarch sized Orks exist due to Primarch sized threats, during the Horus Heresy the Orks genetic nomenclature came into contact with Primarch sized threats far more regularly than in the Modern 40k as we know it.

There are of course, other prohibitive factors to be considered when assessing an Orks potential growth. As it stands, every sentient species in the galaxy knows to assassinate an upstart Warboss, it is the most efficient way to destabilize the Waaagh and cause the Ork selective process to begin anew. As the orks fight among-st in order to determine a new leader, the threat is more or less neutralized.

The next thing to keep in mind, is that the Orkoid ability to become stronger as they defeat their foes, is widely based more so on the need for there to be OTHER Orks pay witness. On the whole of the Orkoid species, the entirety of their Technology, Reproductive traits and adaptation comes from their Psychic genetics, the "The Drill that will Pierce the Heavens" so to speak.

IF, X Ork kills Y, (Y must in fact be stronger than X or be numerous enough to be considered Stronger than X, While surviving Y in combat so we subtract Y from X) and Z Orks Witness it (Z must be greater than the Psychic requirement of fueling the growth of X, while resulting in X being stronger than Y (Meaning ZY to represent the multiplication of Y's Strength by the Number of Orks who witness the event)) (IE, You need more Orks to fuel the Growth of a Warboss that kills a Chapter Master vs a Warboss that killed fifty Guardsmen)

X - Y + (ZY) = X²

To summarize, X minus Y plus Z times Y equals X Squared.

Warboss minus the Strength of the opposition plus The Number or Orks TIMES the strength of the Opposition will equal Warboss Squared.

Please note, this will ONLY result in a growth of the Warboss if Y is in FACT greater than X and is naturally going to plateau as the number of things " worth fightin " decrease.

Also, please note the relevance of Z, as it is the primary constant in gauging an Orks ability to grow, Orks don't emerge from the Warp after ten thousand years of fighting much stronger than they where originally without the help of the Dark Gods, due to the other orks dying out in the warp, thus weakening the "Drill That Will Pierce the Heavens" trait.

Also important to note, Z is more prohibitive than Y, as Y is always going to be a base level of statistical Strength, the greatest example we have would be the Emperor who has a ten base in all of his, stats (outside of attacks, which are subjective to the wargear equipped and special rules) in other words, if a Slugga Boy kills a Chapter Master and there are not sufficient Orks who witnessed the event to be equal to or greater than the psychic requirement of fueling the Slugga Boys growth off of the Chapter Masters Strength, then it pretty much results in a Nob or it has very little noticeable effect."

**Grimskul**

I have to agree with Brother Haraldus.

Ork growth is proportional to the foes they face and the kind of war that is fought. It is a gradual occurrence generally and again depends on the quality of the foe they are confronting, just being in conflict does not mean an Ork will grow immediately. By that logic whenever an Ork asserts dominance over rebellious grots he would grow a foot or two taller.

In cases like Ghazghkull's meteoric rise to power, keep in mind that he was growing so much because he was overcoming other tough Warbosses in the area which gave him the proportional boost to become so large given that they were such threats to his life. Not every Ork boy is going to go through a thing that similar since most attempting to do so would die and there aren't enough Warbosses for each boy to try doing so.

Also keep in mind fluff ≠ game mechanics. There are some things that can be represented on the table top but Ork Growth is not one of them. At most I could see you rolling on a pre-made table after battles in a campaign to see what buffs you got depending whether or not your Warboss survived and how many worthy foes you killed. But actively growing in game? No.

**Clefty**

Grimskul wrote:
I have to agree with Brother Haraldus.

Ork growth is proportional to the foes they face and the kind of war that is fought. It is a gradual occurrence generally and again depends on the quality of the foe they are confronting, just being in conflict does not mean an Ork will grow immediately. By that logic whenever an Ork asserts dominance over rebellious grots he would grow a foot or two taller.

In cases like Ghazghkull's meteoric rise to power, keep in mind that he was growing so much because he was overcoming other tough Warbosses in the area which gave him the proportional boost to become so large given that they were such threats to his life. Not every Ork boy is going to go through a thing that similar since most attempting to do so would die and there aren't enough Warbosses for each boy to try doing so.

Yes, I explained the process already.

"Might of the Waaagh: Any model with this special rule that kills a model in close combat, that is at least worth three times as much as as the Killers base price, may immediately be replaced with a Nob, Nobs may be upgraded to a Mad Dok, Big Mek or Warboss, if the Nob kills a model in close combat that is worth at least four times as much as a base line Nob is worth. (Important to note, Mad Doks, Big Meks and Gretchins may not be upgraded.)"

Thats a eighteen point model for a boy to become a Nob and Thats an eighty point model for a Nob to be eligible to grow stronger.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrotherHaraldus wrote:
It's not apparent, because it's incorrect.

Ghazghkull leads the biggest Waaagh! ever seen. He does not grow to twice his previous size over the course of a single battle. Neither does any of his Orks.

Oh, and by the way, just in case you again, decide to ignore my previous post, The Reason why Graz isn't Primarched sized is because there are no Primarch equivalent threats to overcome.

**Grimskul**

My main point is that fluff-wise these things always seem to be gradual since I haven't found a specific source or citation stating that Orks immediately grow in size and strength after overcoming a significant foe.

By extension, game-wise this seems pretty tedious especially in an Apocalypse game where there's already a butt load of units you need to worry about. Then having to factor in points of the enemy's own models makes this even more cumbersome. Does this only apply to infantry models? Does this include vehicles? Does the dead model's cost include its wargear when comparing how many times it costs compared to the killer's base price?

When it comes to rules you want to keep it simple and this just makes things needlessly complicated for a game that's about rolling dice.

**Clefty**

Only Infantry Characters: killed BY Infantry Orks, It only calculates their BASE Cost and Orks don't have a Cap to how fast their cells divide, all we know is the more Orks there are, the Faster they grow.

**Perfect Organism**

Clefty wrote:
Orks don't have a Cap to how fast their cells divide, all we know is the more Orks there are, the Faster they grow.

You got a source for that, or is it just something that you came up with?

**Clefty**

Perfect Organism wrote:
Clefty wrote:
Orks don't have a Cap to how fast their cells divide, all we know is the more Orks there are, the Faster they grow.

You got a source for that, or is it just something that you came up with?

There is a book titled "Xenology" where a member of the Admech takes individual Orkoid cells and places them on pitri dishes, Pitri dishes with multiple seperate cells grows exponentially faster than large individual cells. He also studies a bunch of other Alien races including, Nids, Tau, Eldar, Kroot and Necrons. There are more but they aren't playable factions.

one seperate cell took sixteen hours to divide, two; eight hours, three; two point six hours ect.

He clearly stated that there was no apparent cap in the speed of cellular division. Then he goes on to talk about the idea that I posted. (I go into greater detail than he does, but he begins to expand upon their potential.) He also makes a mention of weaponizing Catachan level herbacide for use against Orks, apparently you can slow the fungal helix in their dna with extremely strong herbacide.

**Ashiraya**

How is this related to the size of any threats?

I can perhaps buy that Orks were generally larger in 30K, probably because less ONLY WAR meant the really big bad warbosses lived longer (Well... The orks created tons of war, but they can only compensate so much without devolving into mindless anarchy)

But that they'd swell from boy size to Warboss size over the course of a single battle is just plainly implausible, and the Imperium has plenty of things even bigger than Primarchs (Like Knights). Nowhere has it been said that they grow bigger the bigger the foe is. Only that they grow from fighting, as in, grow from fighting at all.

You are free to take what you wish as your headcanon, of course, but at least acknowledge that it is.

**Clefty**

BrotherHaraldus wrote:
How is this related to the size of any threats?

I can perhaps buy that Orks were generally larger in 30K, probably because less ONLY WAR meant the really big bad warbosses lived longer (Well... The orks created tons of war, but they can only compensate so much without devolving into mindless anarchy)

But that they'd swell from boy size to Warboss size over the course of a single battle is just plainly implausible, and the Imperium has plenty of things even bigger than Primarchs (Like Knights). Nowhere has it been said that they grow bigger the bigger the foe is. Only that they grow from fighting, as in, grow from fighting at all.

You are free to take what you wish as your headcanon, of course, but at least acknowledge that it is.

You don't speak English very well, let me clear some thing up for you.

Primarch SIZED, isn't talking about how large they are, Primarchs are in a threat class in and of themselves, the enemies in 40k aren't as singularly powerful as they where around the time of the Horus Heresy.

They don't grow from just "fighting" they grow from fighting and WINNING, defeating things stronger than themselves.

The pecking order in Ork Society proves this mutliple times, the Ork that defeats the Nob, becomes the Nob. Ork PERCEPTION is what powers the growth of other Orks, if Orks think it works, it works.

Plain and simple.

Now you can go on ahead and "take what you wish as your headcanon"

**Charles Rampant**

Clefty wrote:

You don't speak English very well, let me clear some thing up for you.

I'm going to be honest and say that, quite apart from how staggeringly rude this comment was, his posts are much clearer and easier to grasp than yours. Check yourself mate.

**Clefty**

Charles Rampant wrote:
Clefty wrote:

You don't speak English very well, let me clear some thing up for you.

I'm going to be honest and say that, quite apart from how staggeringly rude this comment was, his posts are much clearer and easier to grasp than yours. Check yourself mate.

It's what I observed. I have broken down what I know as much as I possibly can. Shrug.

Duly noted.

By the way, English isn't his first language. It's important to address the root of a misunderstanding and yes, he did misunderstand what Primarch sized insinuated, next time I will be more explicit when my explanations.

"The Drill That Will Pierce The Heavens" Is a Gurren Lagann Reference to doing the impossible. It is a Phrase.

Now, to understand what I know and have read, the Orks BELIEVE in something, which in turn, makes it a reality.

This effects, the very Orks themselves, by BELIEVING red makes it go faster, the Orks actually make that a reality.

Orks believe, that the Ork who Krumps the most gits (Proves himself) is the strongest Ork, that Ork is then strengthed by the collective psych believing him to be stronger, he becomes stronger. (stronger, not neccesarily limited to feats of strength. He is more POWERFUL as a result of this mass belief.)

Orks, only grow while there are enemies to kill who are stronger than they are. The Orks during M:30, had far more time to expand their Empires and test themselves against the most powerful foes the Galaxy had to offer. This resulted in Warbosses who where more powerful than their M:40 counterparts.

Primarchs and Primarch equivalents, where far more common in M:30, resulting in stronger warbosses.

That is as simple as it gets.

Sorry for being rude, It is really frustrating when attempting to convey something you are passionate about and being misunderstood at such a core level, due to a language barrier.

I really am sorry for being a massive asshat.

**Grimskul**

Actually the whole thing where an ork believes things are true and therefore makes it happen is a common misconception.

Butcha puts it better than I can concerning this issue so here's a quote from him:

"Orks are all psychically active at a low level means that if an ork believes something works, it does.

No. Just no.

Even if the premise is determined to be true in-game, the presence of low-level psychic activity in all orks does not imbue each and every ork with the ability to totally bypass physics, nor does it indicate that orks can simply choose to believe in something and make it work.

It's well established that all orks have some niggling level of psychic ability. That alone means that individual orkish belief isn't enough to 'empower' a device to ignore the laws of physics. One ork doesn't generate much psychic energy. They have a low-level of psychic power. They aren't Eldar.

On top of that, even if orks do psychically manifest by empowering items to bypass the laws of physics, that doesn't follow that orks can simply 'choose' to believe something so that it happens. Belief is a pretty complicated state of affairs, and humans (and, presumably orks) can't just turn it on at will. Given that orks believe 'red wunz go fasta', and red vehicles do move faster for orks, doesn't indicate that orks painted their vehicles red, then decided to believe that make them faster.

Presumably, this arose from a more complicated state of affairs. Perhaps the Evil Suns, who tend to like red colors, and who have a love of speed and a lot of meks, painted a lot of vehicles red. These vehicles might have been faster because they were driven by orks with an affinity for speed, or orks who chose to spend a lot of teef on making a fast vehicle. Then, after orks observed many Evil Suns vehicles (which both tended to be red, and tended to be fast), a widespread belief in 'red=fast' arose in the ork psychology".

For a counter-example, here's my fluff idea for targeter squigs (as found on the Freebooter-looking Flash Git GW sells):

Targeter squigs are rotund, monocular, near-sighted squigs. They are reluctant to move, and prefer to sit immobile and wait for prey. When approached by a potential predator, the targeter squig emits a loud, piercing chirp, sounding much like an electronic ping or beep. If the predator continues to approach the squig, the targeter squig will continue to emit this unpleasant beeping, increasing in volume and frequency. If the predator approaches too closely to the squig, it will often vomit the contents of its stomach at the predator, void its bowels in the direction of the predator, or leap away awkwardly (and sometimes, all three).

Now, if an ork picks up a targeter squig, he's got a little pet that will sit on his shoulder. It's nearsighted, and has trouble with depth perception. If the ork is moving around, the squig will sometimes see something that alarms it, and emit a little panicked 'ping'. However, if the ork continues to move around, the squig might lose focus on the threat, and settle down, or see something else threatening. On the other hand, if the ork can muster up some concentration and stand fairly still, the targeter squig will focus on the prey and see it approaching. It will continue to ping and ping as the prey approaches. Ultimately, the squig will be emitting a panicked trill, if the enemy is fairly close. At this point, the ork knows that he had better shoot the enemy, or his pet will throw up or poop all over the place, so he shoots. As a result of standing still, the ork is actually in the best possible firing position (at least, for an ork), as he isn't running around, waving his arms, or generally being a boisterous ork.

So, even though the targeter squig doesn't actually 'target' the enemy, the behaviors that accompany the squig do benefit the ork's aim. As orks observe other orks using targeter squigs and being more accurate (for entirely the wrong reasons), a communal belief in the efficacy of targeter squigs arises in the orkish mind, to the extent that even in situations where the targeter squig should be of little help, an ork with one is measurably more accurate than one without.

See, it's not "Orks believe it so it's true!"

Also, keep in mind that Genetor Anzion, the one who claims that Orks belief makes things work in the Ork codex is a very subjective (and questionable) source given that its from an in-universe AND Imperial perspective whom we know often don't understand how science and technology works. Given that it's not an objective portrayal it should not be taken as absolute truth, especially given other fluff sources surrounding the Orks psychic resonance.

**Clefty**

Grimskul wrote:
Actually the whole thing where an ork believes things are true and therefore makes it happen is a common misconception.

Butcha puts it better than I can concerning this issue so here's a quote from him:

"Orks are all psychically active at a low level means that if an ork believes something works, it does.

No. Just no.

Even if the premise is determined to be true in-game, the presence of low-level psychic activity in all orks does not imbue each and every ork with the ability to totally bypass physics, nor does it indicate that orks can simply choose to believe in something and make it work.

It's well established that all orks have some niggling level of psychic ability. That alone means that individual orkish belief isn't enough to 'empower' a device to ignore the laws of physics. One ork doesn't generate much psychic energy. They have a low-level of psychic power. They aren't Eldar.

On top of that, even if orks do psychically manifest by empowering items to bypass the laws of physics, that doesn't follow that orks can simply 'choose' to believe something so that it happens. Belief is a pretty complicated state of affairs, and humans (and, presumably orks) can't just turn it on at will. Given that orks believe 'red wunz go fasta', and red vehicles do move faster for orks, doesn't indicate that orks painted their vehicles red, then decided to believe that make them faster.

Presumably, this arose from a more complicated state of affairs. Perhaps the Evil Suns, who tend to like red colors, and who have a love of speed and a lot of meks, painted a lot of vehicles red. These vehicles might have been faster because they were driven by orks with an affinity for speed, or orks who chose to spend a lot of teef on making a fast vehicle. Then, after orks observed many Evil Suns vehicles (which both tended to be red, and tended to be fast), a widespread belief in 'red=fast' arose in the ork psychology".

For a counter-example, here's my fluff idea for targeter squigs (as found on the Freebooter-looking Flash Git GW sells):

Targeter squigs are rotund, monocular, near-sighted squigs. They are reluctant to move, and prefer to sit immobile and wait for prey. When approached by a potential predator, the targeter squig emits a loud, piercing chirp, sounding much like an electronic ping or beep. If the predator continues to approach the squig, the targeter squig will continue to emit this unpleasant beeping, increasing in volume and frequency. If the predator approaches too closely to the squig, it will often vomit the contents of its stomach at the predator, void its bowels in the direction of the predator, or leap away awkwardly (and sometimes, all three).

Now, if an ork picks up a targeter squig, he's got a little pet that will sit on his shoulder. It's nearsighted, and has trouble with depth perception. If the ork is moving around, the squig will sometimes see something that alarms it, and emit a little panicked 'ping'. However, if the ork continues to move around, the squig might lose focus on the threat, and settle down, or see something else threatening. On the other hand, if the ork can muster up some concentration and stand fairly still, the targeter squig will focus on the prey and see it approaching. It will continue to ping and ping as the prey approaches. Ultimately, the squig will be emitting a panicked trill, if the enemy is fairly close. At this point, the ork knows that he had better shoot the enemy, or his pet will throw up or poop all over the place, so he shoots. As a result of standing still, the ork is actually in the best possible firing position (at least, for an ork), as he isn't running around, waving his arms, or generally being a boisterous ork.

So, even though the targeter squig doesn't actually 'target' the enemy, the behaviors that accompany the squig do benefit the ork's aim. As orks observe other orks using targeter squigs and being more accurate (for entirely the wrong reasons), a communal belief in the efficacy of targeter squigs arises in the orkish mind, to the extent that even in situations where the targeter squig should be of little help, an ork with one is measurably more accurate than one without.

See, it's not "Orks believe it so it's true!"

Also, keep in mind that Genetor Anzion, the one who claims that Orks belief makes things work in the Ork codex is a very subjective (and questionable) source given that its from an in-universe AND Imperial perspective whom we know often don't understand how science and technology works. Given that it's not an objective portrayal it should not be taken as absolute truth, especially given other fluff sources surrounding the Orks psychic resonance.

How do their guns function?

How do Orks survive in the Warp without Geller Fields?

How does the Ork reproductive cycle create matter from virtually nothing?

How is aforementioned Reproductive cycle completely self sufficient and capable of expanding indefinitely alongside having an infinite about of self sustainability?

Why are Orks capable of operating virtually any machine after looting it?

Why do RED Vehicles travel faster?

Why does Ork Technology almost always only Function in Ork hands?

**Grimskul**

Guns like their shootas function by the same laws that other automatic weapons with solid-slug or explosive weaponry do, if in a more slapdash and haphazard way.

The shoota still has a firing mechanism like other guns with how it has a slot for an ammo clip, and due to the variability of different meks using different designs can be gas-powered or even just use basic things like gunpowder. In the Rogue Trader 40K RPG humans and other non-Orks can use Shootas and Sluggas but they become unreliable and more prone to jam unlike when they are wielded by an Ork whose psychic resonance allow to function more effectively.

For more complicated weapons like Kustom Mega Blastas and Shokk Attack Gunz it delves into the area of sci-fi so the issue is that that has to do more with their innate genetically designed understanding of engineering and mechanics than Orky psychic resonance especially given that these inventions are not that common so there isn't that big of an undercurrent of having a common belief of how it should work.

Actually orks get by pretty well in the Warp without Geller fields since they often can create their own force fields (one of the main things Orks are actually known for, check out BFG for more info) and often don't care since even in the Ork codex the Ork's resistance to Chaos mixed in with their own Orky mentality means they're willing to face the daemons that spawn inside Space Hulks and other Ork ships head on with glee, them often being the warm-up fighting before they reach a planet for them to launch a WAAAGH!

Define what you mean by the Ork reproductive cycle creating matter from nothing? They give off spores which then take root in environments that can support it like other fungus and grow off to eventually develop new Orks.

Also keep in mind this is sci-fi, and 40K sci-fi (basically fantasy in space) at that. If you're looking for any legitimate real-world explanations to provide scientific answers to everything remember this is a world where Daemons literally exist and feed off emotion and there are gigantic walking titans that have disproportionate impossible cathedrals built on them. Not to mention that there's literally magic via psykers. The point is that at the end of the day the idea that Orks are able to think things into existence is extremely limited at best and doesn't mean that if Orks collectively believe the world ends that it will. Otherwise you'd have already seen cases where Orks just believe that they win and they do because of it, doesn't work that way since it would make the stories about them pretty damn boring.

**Clefty**

"Ork behavior is dominated by the WAAAGH!, a gestalt psychic field they generate that affects the Ork psyche, which allows Orks to instinctively recognize who is "bigga", and therefore who is in charge, since might makes right in Ork society. All Orks generate this field, and it grows stronger as the Orks enjoy themselves, generally while fighting, and as more of them congregate together in one geographical area. The WAAAGH! helps give momentum to the Orks' planetary assault campaigns, which are also known as WAAAGHs! (the Orks like to call a lot of things WAAAGH!s). Such a WAAAGH! is a cross between a holy crusade and a pub crawl, with a bit of genocide thrown in for good measure. Thousands of Orks will gather together, drawn to the power of a single dominant Ork called a Warboss or Warlord if the WAAAAGH! is particularly massive, who is bigger and more intelligent than the Orks around him. Then the Orks will set off to find an enemy to fight and defeat. Ork WAAAGHs! will sweep whole planetary systems away and destroy armies and fleets in tides of bloodlust and carnage, and only once the Orks have killed every available enemy will they start to fight amongst themselves again.

The Imperium of Man's Tech-priests have theorized that this gestalt psychic field also has a telekinetic or quantum probabilistic effect, allowing the seemingly ramshackle and poorly designed Ork technology to work as the Greenskins expect. It is believed that the reason this hypothesis came into existence is that the Imperium adopted the Adeptus Mechanicus' religious belief that aspects of a universal "Machine Spirit" inhabits all technology, and that this Machine Spirit serves Mankind at the command of the Machine God. If this is the case, without a Machine Spirit, Ork machines could not work, requiring some psychic cause to justify their often devastating effect. Furthermore, Mechanicus Genetor Lukas Anzion has noted that many Ork-built weapons will not function at all unless wielded by an Orkoid, possibly supporting this hypothesis."

**Clefty**

Grimskul wrote:
Actually the whole thing where an ork believes things are true and therefore makes it happen is a common misconception.

Butcha puts it better than I can concerning this issue so here's a quote from him:

"Orks are all psychically active at a low level means that if an ork believes something works, it does.

No. Just no.

Even if the premise is determined to be true in-game, the presence of low-level psychic activity in all orks does not imbue each and every ork with the ability to totally bypass physics, nor does it indicate that orks can simply choose to believe in something and make it work.

It's well established that all orks have some niggling level of psychic ability. That alone means that individual orkish belief isn't enough to 'empower' a device to ignore the laws of physics. One ork doesn't generate much psychic energy. They have a low-level of psychic power. They aren't Eldar.

On top of that, even if orks do psychically manifest by empowering items to bypass the laws of physics, that doesn't follow that orks can simply 'choose' to believe something so that it happens. Belief is a pretty complicated state of affairs, and humans (and, presumably orks) can't just turn it on at will. Given that orks believe 'red wunz go fasta', and red vehicles do move faster for orks, doesn't indicate that orks painted their vehicles red, then decided to believe that make them faster.

Presumably, this arose from a more complicated state of affairs. Perhaps the Evil Suns, who tend to like red colors, and who have a love of speed and a lot of meks, painted a lot of vehicles red. These vehicles might have been faster because they were driven by orks with an affinity for speed, or orks who chose to spend a lot of teef on making a fast vehicle. Then, after orks observed many Evil Suns vehicles (which both tended to be red, and tended to be fast), a widespread belief in 'red=fast' arose in the ork psychology".

For a counter-example, here's my fluff idea for targeter squigs (as found on the Freebooter-looking Flash Git GW sells):

Targeter squigs are rotund, monocular, near-sighted squigs. They are reluctant to move, and prefer to sit immobile and wait for prey. When approached by a potential predator, the targeter squig emits a loud, piercing chirp, sounding much like an electronic ping or beep. If the predator continues to approach the squig, the targeter squig will continue to emit this unpleasant beeping, increasing in volume and frequency. If the predator approaches too closely to the squig, it will often vomit the contents of its stomach at the predator, void its bowels in the direction of the predator, or leap away awkwardly (and sometimes, all three).

Now, if an ork picks up a targeter squig, he's got a little pet that will sit on his shoulder. It's nearsighted, and has trouble with depth perception. If the ork is moving around, the squig will sometimes see something that alarms it, and emit a little panicked 'ping'. However, if the ork continues to move around, the squig might lose focus on the threat, and settle down, or see something else threatening. On the other hand, if the ork can muster up some concentration and stand fairly still, the targeter squig will focus on the prey and see it approaching. It will continue to ping and ping as the prey approaches. Ultimately, the squig will be emitting a panicked trill, if the enemy is fairly close. At this point, the ork knows that he had better shoot the enemy, or his pet will throw up or poop all over the place, so he shoots. As a result of standing still, the ork is actually in the best possible firing position (at least, for an ork), as he isn't running around, waving his arms, or generally being a boisterous ork.

So, even though the targeter squig doesn't actually 'target' the enemy, the behaviors that accompany the squig do benefit the ork's aim. As orks observe other orks using targeter squigs and being more accurate (for entirely the wrong reasons), a communal belief in the efficacy of targeter squigs arises in the orkish mind, to the extent that even in situations where the targeter squig should be of little help, an ork with one is measurably more accurate than one without.

See, it's not "Orks believe it so it's true!"

Also, keep in mind that Genetor Anzion, the one who claims that Orks belief makes things work in the Ork codex is a very subjective (and questionable) source given that its from an in-universe AND Imperial perspective whom we know often don't understand how science and technology works. Given that it's not an objective portrayal it should not be taken as absolute truth, especially given other fluff sources surrounding the Orks psychic resonance.

Sure, I can see where those points are valid, but you can't explain the entirety of the Orkoid phenomena using those same points.

It seems like you are falling into an even more wide spread misnomer that Orks can simply "Choose to Believe in something" It isn't this awe inspiring power that they wield intelligently, it is an instinctual property of their genetics, it isn't a valid point to take the easiest form of explanation of the concept to be its core.

Here is a less known point, When the Orks obtained an Avatar of Khaine, why did the Avatar empower the Orks? When it couldn't empower the Eldar to the same effect?

The effect of the Orks gestalt Psyche was even MORE pronounced, the Avatar began to change into a more Orkish form, the Orks swelled with the power of what they believed to be an aspect of their Gods.

Now, lets presume that all Ork Technology functions on a scientific level, that inherently doesn't detract from the fact that Orks grow larger due to the psychic Gestalt of their race, It doesn't detract from the Perfect reproductive process that allows for an infinite amount of Orks to be spawned, and it can't feasibly explain why Orks grow faster when there are more Orks around them.

**Grimskul**

Clefty wrote:
Grimskul wrote:
Actually the whole thing where an ork believes things are true and therefore makes it happen is a common misconception.

Butcha puts it better than I can concerning this issue so here's a quote from him:

"Orks are all psychically active at a low level means that if an ork believes something works, it does.

No. Just no.

Even if the premise is determined to be true in-game, the presence of low-level psychic activity in all orks does not imbue each and every ork with the ability to totally bypass physics, nor does it indicate that orks can simply choose to believe in something and make it work.

It's well established that all orks have some niggling level of psychic ability. That alone means that individual orkish belief isn't enough to 'empower' a device to ignore the laws of physics. One ork doesn't generate much psychic energy. They have a low-level of psychic power. They aren't Eldar.

On top of that, even if orks do psychically manifest by empowering items to bypass the laws of physics, that doesn't follow that orks can simply 'choose' to believe something so that it happens. Belief is a pretty complicated state of affairs, and humans (and, presumably orks) can't just turn it on at will. Given that orks believe 'red wunz go fasta', and red vehicles do move faster for orks, doesn't indicate that orks painted their vehicles red, then decided to believe that make them faster.

Presumably, this arose from a more complicated state of affairs. Perhaps the Evil Suns, who tend to like red colors, and who have a love of speed and a lot of meks, painted a lot of vehicles red. These vehicles might have been faster because they were driven by orks with an affinity for speed, or orks who chose to spend a lot of teef on making a fast vehicle. Then, after orks observed many Evil Suns vehicles (which both tended to be red, and tended to be fast), a widespread belief in 'red=fast' arose in the ork psychology".

For a counter-example, here's my fluff idea for targeter squigs (as found on the Freebooter-looking Flash Git GW sells):

Targeter squigs are rotund, monocular, near-sighted squigs. They are reluctant to move, and prefer to sit immobile and wait for prey. When approached by a potential predator, the targeter squig emits a loud, piercing chirp, sounding much like an electronic ping or beep. If the predator continues to approach the squig, the targeter squig will continue to emit this unpleasant beeping, increasing in volume and frequency. If the predator approaches too closely to the squig, it will often vomit the contents of its stomach at the predator, void its bowels in the direction of the predator, or leap away awkwardly (and sometimes, all three).

Now, if an ork picks up a targeter squig, he's got a little pet that will sit on his shoulder. It's nearsighted, and has trouble with depth perception. If the ork is moving around, the squig will sometimes see something that alarms it, and emit a little panicked 'ping'. However, if the ork continues to move around, the squig might lose focus on the threat, and settle down, or see something else threatening. On the other hand, if the ork can muster up some concentration and stand fairly still, the targeter squig will focus on the prey and see it approaching. It will continue to ping and ping as the prey approaches. Ultimately, the squig will be emitting a panicked trill, if the enemy is fairly close. At this point, the ork knows that he had better shoot the enemy, or his pet will throw up or poop all over the place, so he shoots. As a result of standing still, the ork is actually in the best possible firing position (at least, for an ork), as he isn't running around, waving his arms, or generally being a boisterous ork.

So, even though the targeter squig doesn't actually 'target' the enemy, the behaviors that accompany the squig do benefit the ork's aim. As orks observe other orks using targeter squigs and being more accurate (for entirely the wrong reasons), a communal belief in the efficacy of targeter squigs arises in the orkish mind, to the extent that even in situations where the targeter squig should be of little help, an ork with one is measurably more accurate than one without.

See, it's not "Orks believe it so it's true!"

Also, keep in mind that Genetor Anzion, the one who claims that Orks belief makes things work in the Ork codex is a very subjective (and questionable) source given that its from an in-universe AND Imperial perspective whom we know often don't understand how science and technology works. Given that it's not an objective portrayal it should not be taken as absolute truth, especially given other fluff sources surrounding the Orks psychic resonance.

Sure, I can see where those points are valid, but you can't explain the entirety of the Orkoid phenomena using those same points.

It seems like you are falling into an even more wide spread misnomer that Orks can simply "Choose to Believe in something" It isn't this awe inspiring power that they wield intelligently, it is an instinctual property of their genetics, it isn't a valid point to take the easiest form of explanation of the concept to be its core.

Here is a less known point, When the Orks obtained an Avatar of Khaine, why did the Avatar empower the Orks? When it couldn't empower the Eldar to the same effect?

The effect of the Orks gestalt Psyche was even MORE pronounced, the Avatar began to change into a more Orkish form, the Orks swelled with the power of what they believed to be an aspect of their Gods.

Now, lets presume that all Ork Technology functions on a scientific level, that inherently doesn't detract from the fact that Orks grow larger due to the psychic Gestalt of their race, It doesn't detract from the Perfect reproductive process that allows for an infinite amount of Orks to be spawned, and it can't feasibly explain why Orks grow faster when there are more Orks around them.

Can you give me a citation where an Avatar of Khaine was obtained by the Orks? No offense but that sounds really made up, especially given that you can't exactly loot a daemon/warp-based entity.

Also in the case of Genetor Anzion, I don't know if you noticed but I already mentioned him as an unreliable source. Mainly because the Mechanicum and their substituent parts are already known for being pretty damn ass-backwards when it comes to how technology actually works (what with Machine Spirits being simple AI at best) which only makes them even less reliable as a resource on xenos technology given that they can barely understand theirs to begin with but also because its just a hypothesis and again a non-objective viewpoint.

Again, you're not going to find a legitimate scientific explanation for Orks in this. This is Fantasy in space, you can't explain what the hell or how the hell daemons work nor can you explain how Emperor-class titans don't tip over from how top-heavy they are with their nonsensical massive cathedral designed on top of their heads. Also I don't understand how gestalt psychic resonance would affect the Ork reproduction cycle given that I doubt spores would give off it at any level of resonance as a full grown ork would which would not be present in most cases when spores settle and develop. What exactly are you arguing?

**Clefty**

I'm still hunting through my pdfs from where I read that, but for the life of me I can't recall the title.

"Also I don't understand how gestalt psychic resonance would affect the Ork reproduction cycle given that I doubt spores would give off it at any level of resonance as a full grown ork would which would not be present in most cases when spores settle and develop" Each cell in an Orkoid is part of the psychic field the Orks generate. Go read Xenology.

"What exactly are you arguing? "

I'm not really arguing. I am trying incredibly hard to explain myself to all comers and have been doing so for the past four or so hours.

What I don't understand is why you decide to hand wave my statements with

"Again, you're not going to find a legitimate scientific explanation for Orks in this. This is Fantasy in space, you can't explain what the hell or how the hell daemons work nor can you explain how Emperor-class titans don't tip over from how top-heavy they are with their nonsensical massive cathedral designed on top of their heads."

While maintaining that other canon is less reliable than others?

There isn't anything stopping me from hand waving your arguments by simply stating there is more canon supporting that Orks manipulate reality with their belief.

Which is a factual statement.

**Clefty**

Grimskul wrote:
Clefty wrote:
Grimskul wrote:
Actually the whole thing where an ork believes things are true and therefore makes it happen is a common misconception.

Butcha puts it better than I can concerning this issue so here's a quote from him:

"Orks are all psychically active at a low level means that if an ork believes something works, it does.

No. Just no.

Even if the premise is determined to be true in-game, the presence of low-level psychic activity in all orks does not imbue each and every ork with the ability to totally bypass physics, nor does it indicate that orks can simply choose to believe in something and make it work.

It's well established that all orks have some niggling level of psychic ability. That alone means that individual orkish belief isn't enough to 'empower' a device to ignore the laws of physics. One ork doesn't generate much psychic energy. They have a low-level of psychic power. They aren't Eldar.

On top of that, even if orks do psychically manifest by empowering items to bypass the laws of physics, that doesn't follow that orks can simply 'choose' to believe something so that it happens. Belief is a pretty complicated state of affairs, and humans (and, presumably orks) can't just turn it on at will. Given that orks believe 'red wunz go fasta', and red vehicles do move faster for orks, doesn't indicate that orks painted their vehicles red, then decided to believe that make them faster.

Presumably, this arose from a more complicated state of affairs. Perhaps the Evil Suns, who tend to like red colors, and who have a love of speed and a lot of meks, painted a lot of vehicles red. These vehicles might have been faster because they were driven by orks with an affinity for speed, or orks who chose to spend a lot of teef on making a fast vehicle. Then, after orks observed many Evil Suns vehicles (which both tended to be red, and tended to be fast), a widespread belief in 'red=fast' arose in the ork psychology".

For a counter-example, here's my fluff idea for targeter squigs (as found on the Freebooter-looking Flash Git GW sells):

Targeter squigs are rotund, monocular, near-sighted squigs. They are reluctant to move, and prefer to sit immobile and wait for prey. When approached by a potential predator, the targeter squig emits a loud, piercing chirp, sounding much like an electronic ping or beep. If the predator continues to approach the squig, the targeter squig will continue to emit this unpleasant beeping, increasing in volume and frequency. If the predator approaches too closely to the squig, it will often vomit the contents of its stomach at the predator, void its bowels in the direction of the predator, or leap away awkwardly (and sometimes, all three).

Now, if an ork picks up a targeter squig, he's got a little pet that will sit on his shoulder. It's nearsighted, and has trouble with depth perception. If the ork is moving around, the squig will sometimes see something that alarms it, and emit a little panicked 'ping'. However, if the ork continues to move around, the squig might lose focus on the threat, and settle down, or see something else threatening. On the other hand, if the ork can muster up some concentration and stand fairly still, the targeter squig will focus on the prey and see it approaching. It will continue to ping and ping as the prey approaches. Ultimately, the squig will be emitting a panicked trill, if the enemy is fairly close. At this point, the ork knows that he had better shoot the enemy, or his pet will throw up or poop all over the place, so he shoots. As a result of standing still, the ork is actually in the best possible firing position (at least, for an ork), as he isn't running around, waving his arms, or generally being a boisterous ork.

So, even though the targeter squig doesn't actually 'target' the enemy, the behaviors that accompany the squig do benefit the ork's aim. As orks observe other orks using targeter squigs and being more accurate (for entirely the wrong reasons), a communal belief in the efficacy of targeter squigs arises in the orkish mind, to the extent that even in situations where the targeter squig should be of little help, an ork with one is measurably more accurate than one without.

See, it's not "Orks believe it so it's true!"

Also, keep in mind that Genetor Anzion, the one who claims that Orks belief makes things work in the Ork codex is a very subjective (and questionable) source given that its from an in-universe AND Imperial perspective whom we know often don't understand how science and technology works. Given that it's not an objective portrayal it should not be taken as absolute truth, especially given other fluff sources surrounding the Orks psychic resonance.

Sure, I can see where those points are valid, but you can't explain the entirety of the Orkoid phenomena using those same points.

It seems like you are falling into an even more wide spread misnomer that Orks can simply "Choose to Believe in something" It isn't this awe inspiring power that they wield intelligently, it is an instinctual property of their genetics, it isn't a valid point to take the easiest form of explanation of the concept to be its core.

Here is a less known point, When the Orks obtained an Avatar of Khaine, why did the Avatar empower the Orks? When it couldn't empower the Eldar to the same effect?

The effect of the Orks gestalt Psyche was even MORE pronounced, the Avatar began to change into a more Orkish form, the Orks swelled with the power of what they believed to be an aspect of their Gods.

Now, lets presume that all Ork Technology functions on a scientific level, that inherently doesn't detract from the fact that Orks grow larger due to the psychic Gestalt of their race, It doesn't detract from the Perfect reproductive process that allows for an infinite amount of Orks to be spawned, and it can't feasibly explain why Orks grow faster when there are more Orks around them.

Can you give me a citation where an Avatar of Khaine was obtained by the Orks? No offense but that sounds really made up, especially given that you can't exactly loot a daemon/warp-based entity.

Also in the case of Genetor Anzion, I don't know if you noticed but I already mentioned him as an unreliable source. Mainly because the Mechanicum and their substituent parts are already known for being pretty damn ass-backwards when it comes to how technology actually works (what with Machine Spirits being simple AI at best) which only makes them even less reliable as a resource on xenos technology given that they can barely understand theirs to begin with but also because its just a hypothesis and again a non-objective viewpoint.

Again, you're not going to find a legitimate scientific explanation for Orks in this. This is Fantasy in space, you can't explain what the hell or how the hell daemons work nor can you explain how Emperor-class titans don't tip over from how top-heavy they are with their nonsensical massive cathedral designed on top of their heads. Also I don't understand how gestalt psychic resonance would affect the Ork reproduction cycle given that I doubt spores would give off it at any level of resonance as a full grown ork would which would not be present in most cases when spores settle and develop. What exactly are you arguing?

">The humans had betrayed them. He had deluded himself with the belief that it was possible to forge real links with some individuals of that species. He had hoped, to his eternal shame, that the humans would come to the planet and defeat the orks. He had been wrong. Even if he had the power to take this thing from the planet, what would he do except complete the humans’ victory?

>If he waited, the orks would return. They had no choice. They could not resist the siren call even if they were not conscious of it. And the humans had been weakened by this first conflict.

>Before him, he saw the contours of vengeance given physical shape.

>Rising from the chamber floor was a throne. Seated on it was an immense statue. Its form was distorted, vague, incomplete. It was a body without features. The Lileathan world had been abandoned too long, and what had been left behind had lost its essential connection to the eldar. Endlessly consumed by its fury, the shard of Kaela Mensha Khaine now poured energy into another race, one with an inexhaustible hunger for war.

>From this single point, far beneath the surface of Lepidus Prime, wrath called to the orks.

>A being of absolute aggression was on the planet’s threshold. Beneath the surface of the planet, the fragment of a shattered god responded. There were none of the deity’s worshippers at hand to propitiate and redirect the inchoate hunger for war that the shard embodied. But now, near at hand were more of the beings who not only did not resist the shard’s desires, but were eager for its gifts, even if they did not yet know it. They were pure. They were aggression and war and nothing else. They fed the shard with violence, and it repaid them with the capacity for even greater feats of destruction.

>The shard’s essence reached out and caressed the kroozer. It was drawn inside, called by the enormous potential of the creature whose will the ship obeyed. The creature was found, and mindless energy underwent a kind of ecstasy. It poured itself into the orks and, most of all, into a monster whose capacity for violence was infinite.

>In the darkness of its temple, the shard vibrated and glowed. It called to the monster. It fed him and promised more. It promised him power on the same scale as his dreams of rage.

>The moon of ill-omen had not just risen over the planet. It had risen over the galaxy.

>Something entered the ship. Ha’garen felt it at an atavistic level. There was an apprehension of the alien and the divine, but no more. The orks had a much stronger reaction. All of them paused where they stood, and roared. The collective shout drowned out the machines. The roar was triumph, glee, ferocity, power. It was the sound of a species on the path to apotheosis. For a moment, the orks seemed to glow. No light shone from them, but they radiated energy in an almost palpable form. And they grew. That, Ha’garen could tell, was no illusion. Armour strained against expanding chests and swelling limbs. The footsoldiers, the greenskins that the Space Marines saw as little more than cannon fodder, suddenly had the mass and ferocity of elite units. The officers were turning into monsters of war. And the Overfiend...

>Ha’garen was reluctant to apply a word to what the Overfiend was becoming. He did not want to used a word like ‘god’.

>The undertow was hard to resist."

-Stormseer
-Forgemaster
-Shadow-captain

FOUND THE SOURCE. HA. HA. HA. HA. HA. I'M NOT CRAZY, YOU ARE CRAZY.