Standard Taurox is pretty gak from the looks of it.

A Taurox Prime with TL Gatling, Heavy Stubber TL Volley Gun is 95 points, and puts out 17 S4 shots, 14 of which are TL, 4 of which are AP3, and all of which are BS4. That's a great anti-infantry vehicle, there, but we should also remember it can move 12'' and fire 14 TL shots at full BS, take far less risk going over terrain and carry 10 dudes inside.

The Scion Command is a bit iffy, and the power weapon/plasma pistol/power fist pricing is moronic, but having the ability to buy a 145 pt 4x Plasma deepstriking squad of Stormies is great.

Standard Scion rules aren't particularly astounding but I see them working in small units with special weapons.

The increased cost of the power weapon and power fist is appalling. Why should Imperials pay the same cost as Marines when the power fist has such a Strength disparity?

 Smashotron wrote:
The increased cost of the power weapon and power fist is appalling. Why should Imperials pay the same cost as Marines when the power fist has such a Strength disparity?

Because GW is gak when it comes to pricing melee weapons for units that don't start with them. Look at price disparity between honour guard/terminators and units like vanguard vets/chosen set up with power weapons, they really, REALLY have no clue.

I have a hard time stomaching the fact that they actually gave the Taurox prime worse armor than a rhino. . . true it is great anti infantry, that also happens to be extremely vulnerable to infantry.

Also how much for the switch to TL Autocannon?

 astro_nomicon wrote:

Also how much for the switch to TL Autocannon?

It's free.

4 deepstriking Meltaguns for 125 ain't terrible, but LOTD do the same thing for 145 and they get ignores cover and a 3++.

I don't see them being played competitively. Maybe as Knight hunters?

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
4 deepstriking Meltaguns for 125 ain't terrible, but LOTD do the same thing for 145 and they get ignores cover and a 3++.

I don't see them being played competitively. Maybe as Knight hunters?

That's one full BS melta shot and one snap firing MM, vs 4 full BS melta shots. Ignores cover means jack.

The 3++ is nice but eh, not needed and doesn't justify the loss of firepower.

4 plasmas is good, even having midfield fire with VG's is pretty good. An Inquisitor is cheap as chips and considerably buffs the Scions as well.

Actually for 30pts (i.e. 155) more you get 1 Combi-Melta shot, 1 Melta shot, and 1 SnP MM shot and the reroll on the scatter. and the 3++. The LotD win that one.

However! 2-3 deepstriking 90pt squads all coming in together if GW doesn't change the wording for platoon reserves is pretty nice.

The unit looks better.. at 12 pts a model to be sure. It's frustrating that GW is stuck on set point values for specific items REGARDLESS of circumstance (such as plasma pistols being 15pts on 1 wound models with 4+ save, or 15 pts on 3 wound models with 2+ saves.).. oh well.

Really depends on if Veteran squads get changed.. 12pts is a decent price for AP3 guns, especially if they're S4 like the hotshot volley gun (/facepalm at another salvo weapon on infantry)

Well, that WD article where it showed them all having a commando dagger..was bull? because really, now it seems the best of the best don't even bother carrying even a knife into battle?
Small image at the bottom, #2.



So, back to being normal guardsmen with +1BS, +1Sv, and with one special weapon of each type in each box, got to have 2 to get those 2 plasmagun/meltagun/GL/flamer/volleygun!

I would need to see the new codex of course, but right now, it seems you will have outflanking rhinos with pseudo SM scouts riding in them with AP3 bolters.

Hot shot lasguns seem pretty bad despite being AP3. At Str 3, you're looking for a 5+ to wound a marine, and if they have any kind of cover...

Against bikers you're about even with a bolter, at shorter range (and worse if they get +1 to their jink saves) :(

The volley hotshot lasgun isn't terrible on a vehicle at least or if you have a means to force them to come at you, I could see 16 s4 AP3 shots being a pain to deal with.

I don't know, maybe it's just that the last few armies I've faced haven't had any models below T4 in them. I'm having trouble seeing these guys as worth their base costs.

I can't take the Taurox Prime seriously.

So many points for such a very frail vehicle.

At least the base Taurox is cheap.

Based on how bad both of these vehicles are, I hope the Chimera has not increased in point cost, at least not drastically. I mean really, 50 pt. would be reasonable if the main Taurox was also Fast but there is no sane reason to pay 80+ pt. on an 11/10/10 Fast Transport.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Smashotron wrote:
The increased cost of the power weapon and power fist is appalling. Why should Imperials pay the same cost as Marines when the power fist has such a Strength disparity?

Because GW is gak when it comes to pricing melee weapons for units that don't start with them. Look at price disparity between honour guard/terminators and units like vanguard vets/chosen set up with power weapons, they really, REALLY have no clue.

Perhaps is it meant to be a fluffy thing? Guard tend to have less access to power weapons don't they?
Then again, scions aren't guard...

People seem to miss a important part about the prime. Its a god damn fast veichle that comes with good guns and inbuilt dozer blades! Having the ability to move 12 and fire at full BS is big. Then again... This seems like the new way of transporting ogryns and that fast.

 phatonic wrote:
People seem to miss a important part about the prime. Its a god damn fast veichle that comes with good guns and inbuilt dozer blades! Having the ability to move 12 and fire at full BS is big. Then again... This seems like the new way of transporting ogryns and that fast.

Which does nothing to fix that its made of tissue paper, dreams, and tears.

It also costs a lot. Which makes my first point that much more relevant.

Tissue paper bah, good ser my trukks are even thinner paper!

People have to stop looking at 40k as a competive game as its a long shot from not as its way unbalanced compared to other systems out there now just enjoy a game with beer and pals and get this competive mindset out of the game... Or am i the only one who thinks like thiz cuz ima ork?

 phatonic wrote:
Tissue paper bah, good ser my trukks are even thinner paper!

People have to stop looking at 40k as a competive game as its a long shot from not as its way unbalanced compared to other systems out there now just enjoy a game with beer and pals and get this competive mindset out of the game... Or am i the only one who thinks like thiz cuz ima ork?

To be fair this is the tactics section of the forum, so while playing for fun is all well and good (since I do that myself as an Ork player), in the context that we're in right now it's all about efficiency and ability which the Taurox seems to be lacking in several areas. Especially with competition like the Chimera which already has heavier front armour, decent guns, more fire points and even greater transport space.

 Grimskul wrote:

 phatonic wrote:
Tissue paper bah, good ser my trukks are even thinner paper!

People have to stop looking at 40k as a competive game as its a long shot from not as its way unbalanced compared to other systems out there now just enjoy a game with beer and pals and get this competive mindset out of the game... Or am i the only one who thinks like thiz cuz ima ork?

To be fair this is the tactics section of the forum, so while playing for fun is all well and good (since I do that myself as an Ork player), in the context that we're in right now it's all about efficiency and ability which the Taurox seems to be lacking in several areas. Especially with competition like the Chimera which already has heavier front armour, decent guns, more fire points and even greater transport space.

Still being in the tactics section doesnt stop you thinking of ways to use it to it's best
Then again this being from the white dwarf rules migth be changed or things like special rules are yet to be mentiond.

 phatonic wrote:
Tissue paper bah, good ser my trukks are even thinner paper!

People have to stop looking at 40k as a competive game as its a long shot from not as its way unbalanced compared to other systems out there now just enjoy a game with beer and pals and get this competive mindset out of the game... Or am i the only one who thinks like thiz cuz ima ork?

I'm out there to have fun and all that, but it doesn't stop me from wanting GW to put the effort into their game to make a game that has a semblance of balance, where unit choices are different, rather than more or less powerful.

Its not about being competitive, its about wanting a game that actually caters to both playstyles universally better; where every model is as viable as the next; where army are focused on themes rather than deathstars; where picking your favourite units from the book will make a list on the same relative playing field as someone who went though and min/maxed theirs.

That's all I want and hope for.

 Blacksails wrote:

 phatonic wrote:
Tissue paper bah, good ser my trukks are even thinner paper!

People have to stop looking at 40k as a competive game as its a long shot from not as its way unbalanced compared to other systems out there now just enjoy a game with beer and pals and get this competive mindset out of the game... Or am i the only one who thinks like thiz cuz ima ork?

I'm out there to have fun and all that, but it doesn't stop me from wanting GW to put the effort into their game to make a game that has a semblance of balance, where unit choices are different, rather than more or less powerful.

Its not about being competitive, its about wanting a game that actually caters to both playstyles universally better; where every model is as viable as the next; where army are focused on themes rather than deathstars; where picking your favourite units from the book will make a list on the same relative playing field as someone who went though and min/maxed theirs.

That's all I want and hope for.

Hear hear. And back to topic what do you guys think of the salvo hotlasguns with str4? Would it be used instead of the old plasma spam?

Is it the same cost as plasma?

If so, it'd be a tough sell. If it was cheaper, eh, I could see it in a dedicated squad, but I think plasma is more useful against more targets.

Granted, if the rumours about FRFSRF applying to hot shot guns is true, then it could be decent.

 Blacksails wrote:
Is it the same cost as plasma?

If so, it'd be a tough sell. If it was cheaper, eh, I could see it in a dedicated squad, but I think plasma is more useful against more targets.

Granted, if the rumours about FRFSRF applying to hot shot guns is true, then it could be decent.

Its 5p cheaper. And with orders geeze *drools* never tougth that migth happen

 phatonic wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 phatonic wrote:
Tissue paper bah, good ser my trukks are even thinner paper!

People have to stop looking at 40k as a competive game as its a long shot from not as its way unbalanced compared to other systems out there now just enjoy a game with beer and pals and get this competive mindset out of the game... Or am i the only one who thinks like thiz cuz ima ork?

I'm out there to have fun and all that, but it doesn't stop me from wanting GW to put the effort into their game to make a game that has a semblance of balance, where unit choices are different, rather than more or less powerful.

Its not about being competitive, its about wanting a game that actually caters to both playstyles universally better; where every model is as viable as the next; where army are focused on themes rather than deathstars; where picking your favourite units from the book will make a list on the same relative playing field as someone who went though and min/maxed theirs.

That's all I want and hope for.

Hear hear. And back to topic what do you guys think of the salvo hotlasguns with str4? Would it be used instead of the old plasma spam?

Honestly, I think they'll be used mainly in the command squads for volume of fire and not in the normal Scion squads. With the command squad you can take 4 of them cheap as chips and have the options for orders to boost them more directly whereas other scion squads may not be in range of orders if they're deep striking and are more likely to use plasma to better threaten rear armour or MC.

I read the salvo rule; turns out, if you move you can only fire it at half range, so if you move (since hot-shots are 18' only) you got 2 shots at Str4 AP3 at 12 inches, so it somewhat is compatible with the hot-shots...of course we'll need to see if hot-shots are str4 now or still a pitiful Str3.

Also, Phatonic, if the Taurox IS the new fancy way to carry Ogryns, I might still use a chimera, as it is not an assault vehicle, so still suffer from the disembark-and-wait-next-turn-to-assault problem.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
I read the salvo rule; turns out, if you move you can only fire it at half range, so if you move (since hot-shots are 18' only) you got 2 shots at Str4 AP3 at 12 inches, so it somewhat is compatible with the hot-shots...of course we'll need to see if hot-shots are str4 now or still a pitiful Str3.

Also, Phatonic, if the Taurox IS the new fancy way to carry Ogryns, I might still use a chimera, as it is not an assault vehicle, so still suffer from the disembark-and-wait-next-turn-to-assault problem.

true at that but being a fast veichle move 12 and turboboost 12 and ur close enough! It draws fire and thats what ogryns are for.
As in the rules mentiond above the hotshot volley gun got 24 inches range, but i really hope normal hotshot get str 4, then with point decrease and a str 4 i guess we will see tons of these guys.

True, 24 inches is close, but that would mean that taurox may well get shot, blow up and then your Ogryns can end up pinned if their vehicle explode around them...and personally, at the price Orgyns are, I do not considered them a good investment to soak up fire, but that's me.

24 inch range yes, but it is a salvo weapon; salvo weapon rules states that if you move, you can fire up to half the listed range; so 2 shots at 12 inches, but 4 at 24-but that would mean having only a single shot for the hot-shots in your squad-if none at all if your target is between 18-24 inch range...

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
True, 24 inches is close, but that would mean that taurox may well get shot, blow up and then your Ogryns can end up pinned if their vehicle explode around them...and personally, at the price Orgyns are, I do not considered them a good investment to soak up fire, but that's me.

24 inch range yes, but it is a salvo weapon; salvo weapon rules states that if you move, you can fire up to half the listed range; so 2 shots at 12 inches, but 4 at 24-but that would mean having only a single shot for the hot-shots in your squad-if none at all if your target is between 18-24 inch range...

we are yet to see rules for the rest including new ogryns and orders that migth give the unit relentless and so on.

True, but it is a rather long shot to expect them to cover every disadvantage with the new stuff with something as 'simple' as orders.

It can happen, but I'm cynical about it.

I just can't see the lasgun being Str4. Not with the Volley gun already being Str4.

Sad times

Some ork players are sniggering at your complaints re the Taurox light armour - have a look at ork trukks' armour 10 on all sides (Seriously, playing Tauroxes rather like trukks would be a good idea tactically.)

Some other ork players are looking at the Taurox kit and thinking that an up-armoured version would make a great Battlewagon model.

The normal Taurox makes me cry, but the upgraded one is pretty cool. I hope the scions aren't replacements for storm troopers, no spec ops, and they lose their CCW. Stormies should be WS4 as well, that would actually make them pretty awesome in melee.

But with Scions having no CCW and the costs for those melee weapons it seems GW wants to smash guard melee into the ground, except for the dedicated units like the ogryns.

Looking at this I could see the Gatling cannon and Hot Shot Volley Gun or twin linked autocannon being the standard build for the prime. Yes they are super fragile, however spamming these like Ork trukks with cheap squads inside (So x5 Scions with x2 melta guns making the entire unit 185pts) would not be a bad idea. Especially if you take into account that apparently you can run a whole army of just these guys if the rumor is true. A light mechanized army with these backed up by Vendettas and Leman Russ battle tanks would be a pretty solid army.

Too soon for tactics...at least for some. We still dont know stats of new hotshot lasgun. From hotshot volley gun I guess S4 AP3 24'' ...rapid fire?
I think its important, especially with FRFSRF, scion unit can theoretically shoot hell of a AP3 shots with mere hotshot lasguns.

Fot the Taurox - I like it. Basic version is cheap transport with TL AC. Prime is IMO beast. Fast, can deliver solid anti infantry punch for the price.

The Taurox is a pretty bad transport. For the ork players "sniggering" they should look at the trukk again; open topped lets you assault from it, 35 pts vs 50 pts, ramshackle, and red paint job upgrade all make the trukk a much better vehicle for it's job.

The only thing this has going for it is the autocannon. With the autocannon it really isn't an aweful vehicle but it demands a gunline approach in an army that franky didn't need any more excuse to turtle up in a corner.

The real killer to this though are the firepoints having facings to the side armour and only two on each side. If this is 50 pts then I cannot imagine what a chimera will be worth, 70-80 pts?

If either vehicle can be taken in an outflanking force then they could be worthwhile to lay S7 fire into side armour while getting the contents into position.


I will be sad if these are the new stormtroopers though. Not that they are actually bad as DS 4 plasma in the prime squad and the cheaper cost per trooper are both nice. They just loose all their flavor and become grenadiers without their special operation rules.

A lot of whether these options are any good will depend on what the new orders are like. The tempestus could be amazing if junior officers get the right orders or FRFSRF applies to hot shots. There will also be a big difference if locator beacons are cheap and plentiful in the new dex. Either way being able to DS 10 BS4 plasmaguns onto the field with a single reserve roll and only use a single FOC slot is pretty powerful.

Pure garbage!

Couple of questions.

1) Why does one transport say 10 models and the other say ten models.

2) Why does it say under the cammands squads options that 4 models can choose from the special weapons list and underneath it say each of the special weapons separate.

I'm calling BS on this one.

As a non-IG player these transports have "KILL ME FIRST" written all over them. Especially the Taurox prime as its more of a threat with its fast + guns options.

Taking out these paperweights will be quick and merciless for my Necrons, Tau, Eldar and Space Marine armies.

The firing points on that are pretty awesome. Not as good as the chimera but much better than rhinos get.

Reminds me of the Repressor, kind of.

 Jancoran wrote:
The firing points on that are pretty awesome. Not as good as the chimera but much better than rhinos get.

Reminds me of the Repressor, kind of.

I don't see how the fire points are better than the rhino. A unit in a rhino can fire two guns in pretty much any direction, whilst in a taurox can only fire two guns out of a side. It is pretty much impossible to use both the left and right points at the same time, as a unit can only fire at one target. So you only have 2 guns in limited arcs. It would be different if you could tank shock into a unit and fire both sides, but it isn't a tank.

 Ministry wrote:
As a non-IG player these transports have "KILL ME FIRST" written all over them. Especially the Taurox prime as its more of a threat with its fast + guns options.

Taking out these paperweights will be quick and merciless for my Necrons, Tau, Eldar and Space Marine armies.

Which is fine, but it comes at the cost of not shooting at the other nasty things inside the IG list. These transports are quick, deadly, and a viable enough threat to compete as a target priority with IG tanks and artillery. I think the Taurox Prime makes a balanced mech IG list better.

Personally, the number of games that ended up being decided on a single point, generally first blood, do not amke the Taurox an intresting option for me..

Granted with the actual codex in my hand we'll see, but now it looks like a powerful weapons platform made out of cardboard.

Ye gods what an ugly model...and not even close to being in the pug category of ugly but cute; this model is just plain, "I woke up after an epic drunk in bed with the ugliest woman in the universe" bad.

None of these things exists in a vacuum. What are you going to shoot at, the Taurox or the Knight or the Leman Russ? Target priority will save these things from being shot up for at least a turn which gets them across the board if that's where you want them.

 agnosto wrote:
Ye gods what an ugly model...and not even close to being in the pug category of ugly but cute; this model is just plain, "I woke up after an epic drunk in bed with the ugliest woman in the universe" bad.

None of these things exists in a vacuum. What are you going to shoot at, the Taurox or the Knight or the Leman Russ? Target priority will save these things from being shot up for at least a turn which gets them across the board if that's where you want them.

That or you opponent just wants to be mean and blow it up and smell burning guard flesh which happneds alot already lol.

PanzerLeader wrote:

 Ministry wrote:
As a non-IG player these transports have "KILL ME FIRST" written all over them. Especially the Taurox prime as its more of a threat with its fast + guns options.

Taking out these paperweights will be quick and merciless for my Necrons, Tau, Eldar and Space Marine armies.

Which is fine, but it comes at the cost of not shooting at the other nasty things inside the IG list. These transports are quick, deadly, and a viable enough threat to compete as a target priority with IG tanks and artillery. I think the Taurox Prime makes a balanced mech IG list better.

I'm lolling at people who think armour is even an issue at this point

If you field light vehicles the reality is they're going to die anyway. There are many ways you can mitigate the issue, starting by not being a complete idiot that dismisses them before you've even used them.

1) Use Leman Russes as an AV14 front barrier/manipulate LOS
2) Use invuln/cover generators
3) If nothing else, you've got a cheap distraction that was never really critical to your plan in the first place unless you shoved a 10 man Stormie squad inside them (lol don't)
4) Accept the fact that they die and make sure they fire enough to justify their cost before they do


The 90 point Taurox Prime with TL Gatling and TL Hotshot Volley Gun is going to be absolute murder at 24''.

Why?

TL Gatling, BS4:
4.444 wounds on MEQ, 1.481 MEQ unsaved wounds
5.926 wounds on GEQ, 3.951 GEQ unsaved wounds (assuming 5+)

TL HSVG, BS4:
1.778 wounds on MEQ, 1.778 unsaved wounds
2.370 wounds on GEQ, 2.370 GEQ unsaved wounds

Total:
6.222 wounds inflicted on MEQ, 3.259 MEQ unsaved wounds
8.296 wounds inflicted on GEQ, 6.321 GEQ unsaved wounds

And comparing to the DE Venom with 2x SC:
4 wounds inflicted on MEQ and GEQ, 1.333 unsaved wounds on MEQ or 4 unsaved wounds on GEQ

You lost a 5+ jink, gain one AV, don't have to worry about terrain in movement, get an extra hull point, and pay about 25-30 points extra depending on how well my memory is doing. The Venom is revered as one of the greatest weapons the DE have, yet people find no appeal in the Taurox. Heh.

The Taurox Prime with TL Gatling is mental.

I wouldn't even put the Stormies inside the Taurox, I'd deep strike them and buy the Taurox Primes as dedicated transports for them.

Well it's a much better gunboat than a Chimera in general. With enough firepower to worry the enemy the Taurox, while important to them, really wont be AS important to you. So it has that going for it like all MSU type units.

I can foresee this having a very desirous impact on the battle field. And as one who uses speed and meneuvering to maximum advantage in nearly every list, this is right up my ally.

I think they are also very aesthetically pleasing. those of us who are into the models themselves will like playing with them.

It will be a puzzle to unravel like all the others.

 agnosto wrote:
Ye gods what an ugly model...and not even close to being in the pug category of ugly but cute; this model is just plain, "I woke up after an epic drunk in bed with the ugliest woman in the universe" bad.

None of these things exists in a vacuum. What are you going to shoot at, the Taurox or the Knight or the Leman Russ? Target priority will save these things from being shot up for at least a turn which gets them across the board if that's where you want them.

It does have a real life inspiration...

I'd shoot it just to get the ugly thing off of the table. Maybe that's GW's point; make IG more powerful because everybody will focus on destroying this abomination.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PanzerLeader wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
Ye gods what an ugly model...and not even close to being in the pug category of ugly but cute; this model is just plain, "I woke up after an epic drunk in bed with the ugliest woman in the universe" bad.

None of these things exists in a vacuum. What are you going to shoot at, the Taurox or the Knight or the Leman Russ? Target priority will save these things from being shot up for at least a turn which gets them across the board if that's where you want them.

It does have a real life inspiration...

I don't think that looks bad. It's the tracks in wheelwells thing....ugh.

I'm really struggling to see any reason to field the Scions, unless the Astra Militarum codex is significantly worse than the current Imperial Guard or they have some hidden synergy with rules we haven't seen yet. I can't think of any shooting unit in the game which can't beat them point-for-point, given moderately competent tactics and reasonable terrain.

Half your models having special weapons might sound good, but the units are too small to soak up damage and too expensive to be disposable. Better to spend those points on more basic infantry squads and heavy weapons, I think. If you want a suicide melta-squad to jump out of a Valkyrie, special weapons squads would seem to do the job cheaper.

The basic Taurox seems like a semi-reasonable alternative to a Chimera, sacrificing a little durability for a slightly lower points cost. Not sure why you would pay more money for something that looks worse and costs more points though.

The Taurox Prime seems too expensive for such a delicate platform. The cheapest and most practical build seems to be the Battle Cannon / Autocannon variant, which is unfortunately also the worst looking one (and they all look really bad). As a light tank, it compares badly with the Hellhound. As a fast transport, it suffers from not really having anything worth transporting and costing way too much.

The only reason I can see to get the scions is that their models are really nice and they might come with a whole mass of useful bits. The Taurox can't even say that.

I'm actually intrigued with the thought of using full platoons of these things dropping in to the enemy's deployment zone, such a strategy can cause a lot of hilarity. It does rely on the shock value of getting the whole platoon in at once, so hopefully that ability will transfer from IG platoons. With move through cover you can drop them straight in to area terrain to keep them safe. I am interested what the six orders are, hopefully they are something more than just the current six orders.

The ability to FRFSRF will be really nice, as against T4 it is effectively the same as +1S under 9" for hot shots, and +2S at 9+". It adds effectiveness in the best way possible for Guard, more dice!

Does WD state that FRF works on hotshots? Because currently, according to the FAQs, it doesn't.

 Paradigm wrote:
Does WD state that FRF works on hotshots? Because currently, according to the FAQs, it doesn't.

A rumour recently claimed it will under the rules laid out in the new Codex, though we'll be getting Codex Miltarum Tempestus first so that should clear things up

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
Does WD state that FRF works on hotshots? Because currently, according to the FAQs, it doesn't.

A rumour recently claimed it will under the rules laid out in the new Codex, though we'll be getting Codex Miltarum Tempestus first so that should clear things up

If so, that will be awesome. I would doubt it, but as I imagine GW'll want to push the Scions, I think they may well do that.

There's some leaked WD pages out now which confirm that FRFSRF will work with HSLGs in the new book. So, that might make them a bit more usable. Better than Battle Sisters, but still not as good as Dire Avengers, in my opinion.

It might cover the rules for all rapid fire weapons. Don't quote me in that just saying maybe.

I think the main issue with the look of the model is the blue colour scheme!

Maddness, paint it Army green or dessert camo - or even =I= Black, your sorted!

Also, did anyone notice the referance to Codex: Imperial Guard, for platoon command squad/orders. Is this a mistake or will the new. Another in the very top of page 2, the Scion's etc are apparently Elites for Codex:IG. All the while it mentions Astra Militarum throughout.

Pretty sure those rules are only meant to last until the new codex is out in a couple of weeks.

I also expect that there will be a note in Codex: Astra Militarum that any older book which references Codex: Imperial Guard should instead refer to the new codex.

I never get this with GW - they have already paid excessive amounts for their hotshot lasguns, so why do they have to pay normal prices to replace them for spec weapons?

Because GW executives proclaimed that "A weapon which contains the word "Plasma" shall never be less than 15 points and if it is not a Heavy weapon then its price shall be FOREVER fixed in Imperial records at 15 points!"

 Trickstick wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
The firing points on that are pretty awesome. Not as good as the chimera but much better than rhinos get.

Reminds me of the Repressor, kind of.

I don't see how the fire points are better than the rhino. A unit in a rhino can fire two guns in pretty much any direction, whilst in a taurox can only fire two guns out of a side. It is pretty much impossible to use both the left and right points at the same time, as a unit can only fire at one target. So you only have 2 guns in limited arcs. It would be different if you could tank shock into a unit and fire both sides, but it isn't a tank.

the Chimera should have the same problem, 3 guns in each side arc, but I have yet to play someone that does not use all 6 with a 360 fire arc.

barnowl wrote:
the Chimera should have the same problem, 3 guns in each side arc, but I have yet to play someone that does not use all 6 with a 360 fire arc.

The Chimera's rules explicitly tell you that five models can fire from the top hatch and the gun-ports are ignored.

well its 5 firing points now i think anyways.

I don't understand all the complaints about the Str 3 of Hot shot lasgun. I mean, they murder marines and 3+ saves consistently. For only 12 points! That is pretty awesome.

 AdeptSister wrote:
I don't understand all the complaints about the Str 3 of Hot shot lasgun. I mean, they murder marines and 3+ saves consistently. For only 12 points! That is pretty awesome.

But they don't. 20 shots at bs4 is 4 dead marines a turn on average. Certainly better than lasguns. But not amazing.

 AdeptSister wrote:
I don't understand all the complaints about the Str 3 of Hot shot lasgun. I mean, they murder marines and 3+ saves consistently. For only 12 points! That is pretty awesome.

Against a model with T 4, 3+ Armour Save and a 5+ cover save, they are about as good as Shuriken Catapults (same chance of a wound per hit, but different ranges) and worse than Pulse Carbines (similar chance to wound, fewer shots at 18"). With a 4+ cover save, they are less effective than bolters. They also fare a lot worse against T 5 units (like the popular marine bikers) and can't harm T 7 models or AV 10 vehicles at all.

The only situation where they are actually good is when there is no cover. Granted, Focus Fire helps a lot with that and Deep Striking or riding in a Fast vehicle offers some opportunities too, but their short range and limited selection of targets they are good against makes things pretty tough for them.

 Perfect Organism wrote:

 AdeptSister wrote:
I don't understand all the complaints about the Str 3 of Hot shot lasgun. I mean, they murder marines and 3+ saves consistently. For only 12 points! That is pretty awesome.

Against a model with T 4, 3+ Armour Save and a 5+ cover save, they are about as good as Shuriken Catapults (same chance of a wound per hit, but different ranges) and worse than Pulse Carbines (similar chance to wound, fewer shots at 18"). With a 4+ cover save, they are less effective than bolters. They also fare a lot worse against T 5 units (like the popular marine bikers) and can't harm T 7 models or AV 10 vehicles at all.

The only situation where they are actually good is when there is no cover. Granted, Focus Fire helps a lot with that and Deep Striking or riding in a Fast vehicle offers some opportunities too, but their short range and limited selection of targets they are good against makes things pretty tough for them.

Still, Biker Marines are somewhat more expensive, and everybody here is forgetting that you're going to have A) FRFSRF B) Probably at least one M.T exclusive order buffing your fire and C) Special weapons like plasma/melta adding to the fusillade.

And considering that your typical Grav Biker Squad of 5 isn't much cheaper than a full Scion Squad with 2 plasmas, I'd say that's quite reasonable.

I think I worked out that a full squad of scions with FRFSRF and volley guns assuming all hotshot lasguns are STR4 should kill like 4 bikers a turn. Thats a rough quick calculations.

I like the idea of 4 volley guns in the command squad. In a Chimera that makes a pretty ferocious stationary firebase. The squad alone kills about 5 MEQs a turn. If it had just a touch more range it would b e really killer. Accurate mass fire, decent strength, and AP3.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Still, Biker Marines are somewhat more expensive

That's not really relevant, because the comparison is not how good they are compared to bikers, but how good they are compared to similar troops shooting at bikers.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
and everybody here is forgetting that you're going to have A) FRFSRF B) Probably at least one M.T exclusive order buffing your fire

Orders are neither free nor guaranteed to work, but yes, it makes them better than they would be otherwise. A little better at shooting MEQ at 18" than Dire Avengers, by my back-of-an-envelope numbers. On the other hand, the Dire Avengers are better at pretty much everything else.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
and C) Special weapons like plasma/melta adding to the fusillade.

Other units can also have special weapons and I'm far from convinced that they are always worth the points.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
And considering that your typical Grav Biker Squad of 5 isn't much cheaper than a full Scion Squad with 2 plasmas, I'd say that's quite reasonable.

Bikers are also able to handle many more jobs that the Scions. They are more mobile, much better at assaulting and able to threaten tougher targets.

Hate the Taurox model, if I get (1) any it will be to make it into a Duece and a 1/2 (2 1/2 ton truck transport for army squads).

Rules wise its not too shabby, The amount of Dakka they can send out is noteworthy.

Your giving up 1 Front Armor compared to a Chimera and can get AC's instead of ML's yes please. (ignoring FW tracked vehicles)

If you were playing mech guard in 6th you were giving up FB and more than likely losing in KP game anyway, so little change there.

I think deploying my ADL right at mid board, then turn 1 running em 12" (for the fast ones) up to the base of the wall, Dawn of War deployment your within range of all your weapons, with a 4+ cover.

How about the different BS values for the two tanks?

Aye, BS4 trumps BS3 all day, everyday.

Well one is piloted by storm troopers, and the other is piloted by guardsman.

Once again, I find the taurax growing on me. I think the rules are decent and it might be fun to have a small inquistion force from the storm troopers army.

I am really interested in seeing what the IG HQs do now. I think that and the orders system will really determine the viability of the army.

I am really interested in seeing what commissars are going to do now, especially the lord commisar.

I really like that scions are cheaper!

I like that they still have deepstrike abilities, and now have move through cover as well.

You can take up to 3 squads and if you choose a command squad for one elite choice.

According to the white dwarf rumor scions will have some orders and FRFSRF will benefit them!

I will say I dislike that there arent any doctrines, although the scion supplement or the actual guard codex might have something for them(keeping my fingers crossed).

But in all reality they are still just guardsmen with 4+saves and a better bs.

I wonder if the platoon standard or medic will have any different rules, I am surprised they got cheaper!

Well after seeing the leakwed pages I am pretty depressed.
The Taurox is ok, its weak and will die easily but it offers something different and is cheap, so you can spam it.
I am, ok with that and think the rules were handled well.#

Its the renamed and otherwise fethed up stormtroopers that get me, 25pts for a power fist is proof that GW still aren't listening and dont think things through beyond the new shiny.
With the company in the state they are in they should be thinking clearly now.

I think the addition of the Taurox Prime Battle Cannon is kind of neat. I could see the TPBC and the TLAC working in tandem to shred Firewarriors, Dire Avengers and GEQ across the board with their 48" range + 12" movement. Actually with range like that you could put camo nets on them, slap them in some ruins and blast away the whole game. Put a min squad in there to jet out 24" inches on turn 4, then 6" move and 6" disembark onto an objective.

Camo nets behind an aegis and just blast away. It would be difficult against eldar, but then you got the guys that would have been inside the vehicles deep striking in with meltas and plasmas. They then have to actually worry about using their serpent shields which is where most of the issue will come from.

Personally I think there will be two good builds for the prime. Taking the missile launcher in combination with the twin linked Autocannon would be an excellent anti-armor and monstrous creature hunter while the Gatling gun and hot shot Laz volley gun being another good anti-infantry build. Yes they are more expensive than a chimera but for Ballistic Skill 4 and more firepower I can understand why. Thinking a mechanized army of these would be pretty effective as you can take up to 8 in a list (2 HQ and 6 Troops, possibly more) as their speed and ability to fire all weapons at full Ballistic Skill could be effective in the right hands. Also as mentioned, you don't even have to mount the men inside them.

In a scions list you can take 4 per troop slot.

I was thinking they could be a sweet supplement for a Knight list.

Take 3 knights as primary, fill with scions buying primes. Have most of the scions deep strike and target threats to the knights then have the knights advance. Could be interesting.

 Leth wrote:
In a scions list you can take 4 per troop slot.

I was thinking they could be a sweet supplement for a Knight list.

Take 3 knights as primary, fill with scions buying primes. Have most of the scions deep strike and target threats to the knights then have the knights advance. Could be interesting.

Put the Tauroxes behind the Knights, get 5+/4+ cover and move up the board at the same pace, since Knights move 12'' a turn iirc.

Also depends on how orders work and things of that nature. Will be interesting to see if they start to occupy the same time as psychic powers or if they stay at the shooting phase. Because from the wording of some of the orders it seems like they will take place during the movement phase or earlier

 Sinji wrote:
Couple of questions.

1) Why does one transport say 10 models and the other say ten models.

2) Why does it say under the cammands squads options that 4 models can choose from the special weapons list and underneath it say each of the special weapons separate.

I'm calling BS on this one.

I noticed it too. Not sure why no one has responded to it...

I also noticed that they used the words Codex:Astra Militarum and Codex: Imperial guard.

Seriously making me doubt the validity of this

 Ignatius wrote:

 Sinji wrote:
Couple of questions.

1) Why does one transport say 10 models and the other say ten models.

2) Why does it say under the cammands squads options that 4 models can choose from the special weapons list and underneath it say each of the special weapons separate.

I'm calling BS on this one.

I noticed it too. Not sure why no one has responded to it...

I also noticed that they used the words Codex:Astra Militarum and Codex: Imperial guard.

Seriously making me doubt the validity of this

Its not BS, because I'm holding the frigging magazine with the rules in, in my hands right now, as have many other people since Saturday.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

 Sinji wrote:
Couple of questions.

1) Why does one transport say 10 models and the other say ten models.

2) Why does it say under the cammands squads options that 4 models can choose from the special weapons list and underneath it say each of the special weapons separate.

I'm calling BS on this one.

I noticed it too. Not sure why no one has responded to it...

I also noticed that they used the words Codex:Astra Militarum and Codex: Imperial guard.

Seriously making me doubt the validity of this

Its not BS, because I'm holding the frigging magazine with the rules in, in my hands right now, as have many other people since Saturday.

Easy killer. I apologize but man I don't really think that was completely necessary.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
4 deepstriking Meltaguns for 125 ain't terrible, but LOTD do the same thing for 145 and they get ignores cover and a 3++.

I don't see them being played competitively. Maybe as Knight hunters?

I'm a little confused with the 4 melta shots. Does it not say only 2 guys can be upgraded?

 Insane Smile wrote:
I'm a little confused with the 4 melta shots. Does it not say only 2 guys can be upgraded?

Command squads can have 4, normal squads can have 2.

I would probably take a vox though, as order reliability may do a lot to enhance these guys.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Insane Smile wrote:
I'm a little confused with the 4 melta shots. Does it not say only 2 guys can be upgraded?

Command squads can have 4, normal squads can have 2.

I would probably take a vox though, as order reliability may do a lot to enhance these guys.

Especially if FRFSRF order works on the Scions, personally I am loving the look of a list of these guys, already planning on taking a 2000pt. detachment of these bad boys to go with my Elysian Drop Troops.

I just read it and realized you can have one command squad per scion squad.

If they are troop choices then you could have 6 scion command squads and 6 scion squads for a total of 36 special weapons that deep strike in.

I like it.

I think I'll pass. The taurox has already been explained for its crapulance, but I'm not sold on the infantry either.

Basically, what you're talking about is just carapace mechvets that can take an extra special weapon. Hard to see why you'd take them other than aesthetic. Or, of course, if they nerf vets like the rumors say, but we'll have to wait and see.

Otherwise, though, they're not REALLY stormtroopers. They're missing the +1A, and, much more importantly, are missing the special missions. There's just less you can do with them. Not a real substitute, it seems to me.

Which is sad if this is where it's going. There was always a difference between stormtroopers and mechvets, and it would be a bummer if we start living in a world where there's not.

They will have unique orders in the Scion book, don't think we know if those will carry over to the IG book yet.
That should go some way to differentiating.

I'm reserving judgement until I've playtested them some. The big thing that I'm seeing people suggest is using the fact that they are platooned to mass-drop them behind lines.

The loss of the rerolling the scatter will be missed (assuming doctrines aren't hidden in the dex), but the Move Through Cover base SR will help address any bad scatters (unless you want them DS into terrain, which works too)

Basically I think they might see use in hunting Vehicles/Dev Squads with an alpha strike, then going to ground to try for linebreaker.

outflanking thre of them. FUN.

I can see the tanks making good additions to Spearhead Formations. Combining Chimera and the others it is a potiential killer of a mech army.

Has anyone noticed there is an open topped build in the kit.. I wonder if this will confer the assault vehicle rule once the codex is release. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52mzj7frMnw&list=PLEaPE4sLDA7uoayiC1mgz77T1Cf4vmab9 goto 1.16

Huh, interesting. Maybe we dont have the full lowdown on the taurox afterall, I know its probably just wishful thinking but that would be a nice surprise.

Taking the Command Squad for a fairly reliable 3-4 Meltas seems really strong, especially if some of the Orders can be applied to the Meltas as well. I think there may be some usefulness to the units, if only for a decent alpha-strike option.

Hydrapup wrote:
Has anyone noticed there is an open topped build in the kit.. I wonder if this will confer the assault vehicle rule once the codex is release. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52mzj7frMnw&list=PLEaPE4sLDA7uoayiC1mgz77T1Cf4vmab9 goto 1.16

Good catch! Ogryn transport option I think.
Pity it's probably not on the 'fast' prime option.

The use for Scions is obvious

3x Scion Command Squad w/ 4 Meltaguns
9x Scion Squad w/ 2 Plasma Guns
1275 points
Fills up your elites slots and costs a lot but it will be fun seeing your opponent react to a dozen squads with special weapons dropping from the sky, especially if you coordinate your strikes (eg. drop the scion squads near the target of the command squad so you can pop a transport and butcher the passengers).

In all seriousness they fill the same pragmatic role, they are suicide deep strikers, they simply lost their rerolls in exchange for more guns on their command squads and a lower base cost on their other squads. Sure you could use them as frontline special weapon toaters but CCS and vets surpass them anyway in that category so it is a moot point. That being said I will still take a platoon as frontline infantry because I like to use storm troopers as a vanguard type force.

Buttons wrote:

In all seriousness they fill the same pragmatic role, they are suicide deep strikers, they simply lost their rerolls in exchange for more guns on their command squads and a lower base cost on their other squads. Sure you could use them as frontline special weapon toaters but CCS and vets surpass them anyway in that category so it is a moot point. That being said I will still take a platoon as frontline infantry because I like to use storm troopers as a vanguard type force.

As of now Vets surpass them, we do not yet know as of now what the plan is with the new IG Codex or what may happen to them. However I do agree that this will be the best way to run these guys, why they will be making a good addition to my Elysian army. However I do think taking a few Taurox Primes empty to start the game on the table while the Scions Deepstrike in would not be a horrible idea. Already have a cool conversion in place for them and think it would fit well with my Elysian army

 plastictrees wrote:

Hydrapup wrote:
Has anyone noticed there is an open topped build in the kit.. I wonder if this will confer the assault vehicle rule once the codex is release. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52mzj7frMnw&list=PLEaPE4sLDA7uoayiC1mgz77T1Cf4vmab9 goto 1.16

Good catch! Ogryn transport option I think.
Pity it's probably not on the 'fast' prime option.

That is a REALLY good catch, seeing as it lacks any sort of autocannon. There may be more variants then initially thought...

 gmaleron wrote:

Buttons wrote:

In all seriousness they fill the same pragmatic role, they are suicide deep strikers, they simply lost their rerolls in exchange for more guns on their command squads and a lower base cost on their other squads. Sure you could use them as frontline special weapon toaters but CCS and vets surpass them anyway in that category so it is a moot point. That being said I will still take a platoon as frontline infantry because I like to use storm troopers as a vanguard type force.

As of now Vets surpass them, we do not yet know as of now what the plan is with the new IG Codex or what may happen to them. However I do agree that this will be the best way to run these guys, why they will be making a good addition to my Elysian army. However I do think taking a few Taurox Primes empty to start the game on the table while the Scions Deepstrike in would not be a horrible idea. Already have a cool conversion in place for them and think it would fit well with my Elysian army

TBH the vanilla Taurox is a good deal. 50 points for a twin-linked autocannon on a transport? I'd take it over the chimera for my line squads if I didn't have 19 chimeras already and preferred the aesthetic of the Chimera. I would like the Taurox prime more however if it could take flak missiles as I hate having to add dedicated AA to my armies.