They can deep strike and assault the same turn, is that so important or overrated?
They only scatter 1d6 for deep striking so the probability is that they get into combat. How would you use them? what would you kit them with and what units would you go after, tanks, dev squds, riptides etc
How can they be improved using allies? Getting an inquisitor with servo skulls so they don't scatter is very powerful.
I have a tournament coming up and I have decided on taking 8 vanguard with jump packs and 2 power fists, 1 power sword and 4 melta bombs. Comes to about 300 points but it fits in perfectly with my army.
No. They are too overcosted for lame guys in power armor. I wish you good luck in your tourney, but 300 pts for 8 guys in power armor is doing your opponents a favor, imo. You are paying 300 pts for an if-come-maybe assault. Even if everything works perfectly, very few targets are worth an assault from a 300 pt unit. And there are targets like Space wolves that will straight up win.
Martel732 wrote: No. They are too overcosted for lame guys in power armor. I wish you good luck in your tourney, but 300 pts for 8 guys in power armor is doing your opponents a favor, imo. You are paying 300 pts for an if-come-maybe assault. Even if everything works perfectly, very few targets are worth an assault from a 300 pt unit. And there are targets like Space wolves that will straight up win.
They re pretty nasty in combat as they each get 4 attacks each on the charge.
5 guys with jump packs and a power sword is 165 pts, is this the answer to defeating a tau/IG gun line? taking 3 squads of these as your fast attack options and deep striking and assaulting the same turn would tie up/kill those annoying gunline troops.
165pts of vanguard could tie uo tau crisis suits for eg
my tournament next month is a 1000 pts where titans/ super heavy tanks etc can be used. My idea is that the vanguard will be able to deep strike in and with 6 power fist attacks 4 melta bomb attacks and 2 krak grenande attacks be able to take out a super heavy tank on the turn they deep strike in. That is what I am hoping for anyway.
33 pts/model for power armor troops is very, very expensive. Don't forget the Tau will get interceptor fire AND overwatch before you assault. And good Tau will have the stuff they care about bubblewrapped as soon they see the 3 squads of vanguard.
Martel732 wrote: 33 pts/model for power armor troops is very, very expensive. Don't forget the Tau will get interceptor fire AND overwatch before you assault. And good Tau will have the stuff they care about bubblewrapped as soon they see the 3 squads of vanguard.
Well vanguard come in on turn 2 so in your turn 1 you shoud hopefully have removed the bubble wrap with all of your shooting. If I was running 3 squads of vanguard I would also run 3 squads of sternguard in drop pods so 2 drop pods deep strike in on turn 1 and wipe out major threats with melta guns.
in my opinion gunlines are all about shooting at opponents whilst they footslog across the board. Vanguard stop this because they deep strike in with great accuracy and get to assault.
This is BA we are talking about, right? What shooting? LOL It's gonna take more than one turn to get rid of a bubblewrap with BA. Marine firepower sucks in general, and ours is worse than that.
in my opinion gunlines are all about shooting at opponents whilst they footslog across the board. Vanguard stop this because they deep strike in with great accuracy and get to assault.
Your opinion is correct in terms of Guardsmen. Not Tau, not Eldar. Which are your biggest contenders. And Guardsmen who ally in Coteaz (see: most if not all competitive (lol) gunline Guard). At least, from the old 'dex.
A unit of five Vanguard veterans would be lucky to survive their combat against anything but a 10 man throw-away unit by sheer number of attacks they'll get hit back with, and overwatch, and interceptor. Fifteen will fair no better, unless they're all charging the same target. Which is massive overkill.
This is BA we are talking about, right? What shooting? LOL It's gonna take more than one turn to get rid of a bubblewrap with BA. Marine firepower sucks in general, and ours is worse than that.
if I am being honest, I would be happy if my opponent bubble wrapped his army because it means that his whole army is in the same place so it is easier to get into combat. when people spread their army out I hate it because it means once I have wioed out 1 squad I have to go all the way to the other side of the board to get to another juicy unit, if they bunch everything together for interceptor/bubble wrap it means everything is close for me to assault.
Worst comes to worse I assault a bubble wra squad, hopefully I kill them in his turn meaning in my turn 3 I can fly 12 inches with my jump packs and assault what I want.
Vindicator tanks are bubble wraps worst nightmares, all those units in close proximity= a big easy target for the vindicator. BA vindicators are fast so it is basically a 36 inch range str 10 ap2 large blast.
in my opinion gunlines are all about shooting at opponents whilst they footslog across the board. Vanguard stop this because they deep strike in with great accuracy and get to assault.
Your opinion is correct in terms of Guardsmen. Not Tau, not Eldar. Which are your biggest contenders. And Guardsmen who ally in Coteaz (see: most if not all competitive (lol) gunline Guard). At least, from the old 'dex.
A unit of five Vanguard veterans would be lucky to survive their combat against anything but a 10 man throw-away unit by sheer number of attacks they'll get hit back with, and overwatch, and interceptor. Fifteen will fair no better, unless they're all charging the same target. Which is massive overkill.
??? I am confused, are yous aying a blob of 15 guard would kill 5 charging vanguards? the vanguards would get 20 attacks on the charge at a higher initiative including 4 power sword attacks.
Also why would I charge a blob of 50 guardsman for eg with vanguard? that would be a waste. I would go after tanks or something juicy.
I'd wager 15 could knock down 5 Vanguard vets, yes. I'd also wager you're not getting to charge a tank, because with an eye on what you're bringing the Guard player will have 50 Guardsmen surrounding the tank. A world away from your vindicators, and with Vanquisher Cannons and Lascannons pointed straight at it.
obsidiankatana wrote: Guardsmen don't come in blobs of 15. I'd wager 20 could knock down 5 Vanguard vets, yes. I'd also wager you're not getting to charge a tank, because with an eye on what you're bringing the Guard player will have 50 Guardsmen surrounding the tank. A world away from your vindicators, and with Vanquisher Cannons and Lascannons pointed straight at it.
we can do the maths, 5 vanguards charge 20 IG. 20 overwatch shots = 3 hits. str 3 against toghness 4 needs 5's to wound so = 1 wound, 3+ save means 2/3 it will be saved. odds are against receing a casaulty against overwatch. 0.33 chance that I lose a marine. so less that 0.5%
in combat 5 vanguard attack first. 16 attacks with close combats, 4 attacks with power weapons. close combat weapons = wss 4 against IGws 3 so 3's to hit= 11 hits. str 4 against toughness 3 = 3's to wound= 7 wounds. 5+ save = 4.62 die
power sword attacks= 2.64 hits- 1.74 wounds and no save
total IG dead = 6.32
IG hit back
14 Ig left- 14 hits at ws 3 against ws 4 = 7 hits. str 3 against toughness 4 = 2.31 wounds. 3+ save = 1.4 die
IG lose by a 5/6 so they need double ones or they fail morale and run. I am higher initiatiev so i am favourite to run them down and kill them.
If there was a blob of 50 guardsmen I would wipe my hands with glee, if I did decide to assault 15 vanguard into them then I would be a massive favourite to win the combat and that is a massive blob of guard that I would wipe out.
40 overwatch shots. Lasguns have rapid fire. Double all of your numbers. You lose a marine on the charge.
You just lost 4 CC attacks, and I hope not the power sword. Assume the CC attacks, three guardsmen die. The sword kills 1-2 more. You've slain 4-5 Guardsmen, leaving 15-16 to hit you back. 8 hits, and you lose a marine.
Two marines dead, 4-5 Guardsmen dead. If you sweep them, it's unfavorable, as you did it in your turn and you lose the squad next turn. If you don't sweep them, either something else piles in to keep you down or the army backs up to deny another charge, or gives you another charge so you can lose more men to Overwatch.
obsidiankatana wrote: 40 overwatch shots. Lasguns have rapid fire. Double all of your numbers. You lose a marine on the charge.
You just lost 4 CC attacks, and I hope not the power sword. Assume the CC attacks, three guardsmen die. The sword kills 1-2 more. You've slain 4-5 Guardsmen, leaving 15-16 to hit you back. 8 hits, and you lose a marine.
Two marines dead, 4-5 Guardsmen dead. If you sweep them, it's unfavorable, as you did it in your turn and you lose the squad next turn. If you don't sweep them, either something else piles in to keep you down or the army backs up to deny another charge, or gives you another charge so you can lose more men to Overwatch.
well rapid fire gets complicated because would all 20 guys be in range to rapid fire? if we have 50 IG would 50 IG be in rapid fire range?
But lets say all 20 get into get to rapid fire, the IG still lose combat and they have leadership 7. if they lose by 4 they will need to roll a 3 or under, they will run. If they don't run I don't mind you charging another IG blob into the combat, if you wish to throw your whole army at 5 VV thats your tactics. I still have another 2 squads of vanguard running around for you to deal with.
The vanguard vets did well in my 3 tournament games. It is hard to truely judge how they performed as the tournament was an apocolypse allowed tournament so you can imagine the amount of cheese that was being brought.
In my first game I was up against Eldar. The vanguard took out 2 fire prisms who were on the flank firing at my army.
in the second game I was up against 2 imperial knights. The vanguard deepstruck and assaulted an imperial knight. I took out the knight in close combat but then all my vanguard died due to a D- explosion.
3rd game was very hit and miss for the vanguard. Deep striked in and attempted to multi assault a stalker tank and a 10 man unit of scouts. Failed the charge distance for the tan but got into combat with the scouts. Decided that my 2 power fist vets would attack using their bolt pistols instead as I wanted to keep the scouts alive because I wanted to kill them in my opponents turn so that they were locked in combat so he couldnt shoot my vanguard in his turn. I killed 8 scouts in my combat and then in his turn killed the rest so my vanguard then assaulted the tank in my turn 3 wiping it out. My vanguard then got destroyed by a D-weapon.
I had 8 vanguard wwith 2 power fists and 4 melt bombs and jump packs.
I used 6 servo skulls to that if my vanguard deep striked within 12 inches of a servo skull they wouldnt scatter.
hard to judge the vanguard when in an apocolypse game.they did well and caught the opponent off guard, deep striking in without scattering and then assaulting is very dangerous.
champagne_socialist wrote: i thionk the best loadout would be 4 vanguard with 2 power fists and 2 melta bombs, maybe a power sword if you have points.
What about just 2 melta bombs and leave power fists and swords at home? Or maybe 5 bombs and no fists or swords? Power weapons are very overcosted.
but that makes you just a tank killer really , power fists lets you crush troops and tanks. only 10 pts for a power fist upgrade. a power weapon comes free with the squad
champagne_socialist wrote: i thionk the best loadout would be 4 vanguard with 2 power fists and 2 melta bombs, maybe a power sword if you have points.
Do you mean 5? Because minimum is 5.
I'd agree with Martel at keeping the toys cheap. 30pts a man is costly enough with the jump packs. 35 points lets them fight MCs and Tanks (though they should likely not fight the former). 165 point tank-busting squad with meltabombs is... pricy, but I can see the use. They offer enough of a threat that ten bodies of wrap won't deter them, though it may still keep them from their objective.
champagne_socialist wrote: i thionk the best loadout would be 4 vanguard with 2 power fists and 2 melta bombs, maybe a power sword if you have points.
Do you mean 5? Because minimum is 5.
I'd agree with Martel at keeping the toys cheap. 30pts a man is costly enough with the jump packs. 35 points lets them fight MCs and Tanks (though they should likely not fight the former). 165 point tank-busting squad with meltabombs is... pricy, but I can see the use. They offer enough of a threat that ten bodies of wrap won't deter them, though it may still keep them from their objective.
i would always upgrade the power weapon to a power fist for 10pts
They still have the charge when they deep strike, and the D6 means you can usually get a charge. They can work, as a small squad, as a scalpel to take out a key target.
I'd use a squad of 5. That's it. Don't charge in a middle of a gunline with them. Especially tau gunline. You'll be dead before charging.
However, those guyz are enormously useful vs tanks. So i'd take a powerfist and/or a couple of meltabombz and call it a day. Don't forget, you'll be probably playing vs eldar. Eldar = wave serpents. And it's super hard to down them at range. Another option is just a powerfist. Don't invest too much in them and don't throw them at what they won't kill - and they'll be fine. Currently, they're a very strong tactical option. If you loose 190 pts but take out something like a wave serpent - they've allready payed off.
You're not instantly disaperaing after killing something. Besides, I'd gladly give even 200 pts in exchange for a destroyed wave serpent in an army that won't be able to kill it at range. And let's be realistic - without cover-ignore and rate of fire you're not likely to kill even a single wave serpent in lower than 3 turns duration.
"You're not instantly disaperaing after killing something. "
Yeah, that's realistically what probably happens against a good list/player. Not being able to consolidate into a new CC really kills these guys. They're priced as if that were still a thing.
" Besides, I'd gladly give even 200 pts in exchange for a destroyed wave serpent in an army that won't be able to kill it at range."
The Eldar are still winning on that exchange. Mostly because the rest of your army doesn't stack up to Eldar at all.
PipeAlley wrote: Well, you're also throwing the opp. off his game at least a little bit. Even the best players don't like a wrench in their works.
Also, turn 2 assault may allow you to synergize your charge with some other units: bikes, things that dropped podded, etc.
Good players don't care. They expect it as soon as they see the vanguard in the list. They just turn the disruption into an advantage, as you have gimped your list somewhere else to pay for said Vanguard. They just don't bring enough utility/staying power for their cost. Just like practically everything in C:BA.
The "synergy" you speak of is staggered by a turn, which can prove quite fatal. The drop pod units will arrive, be unable to assault and then get shot up before the vanguards arrive.
PipeAlley wrote: Well, you're also throwing the opp. off his game at least a little bit. Even the best players don't like a wrench in their works.
Also, turn 2 assault may allow you to synergize your charge with some other units: bikes, things that dropped podded, etc.
Good players don't care. They expect it as soon as they see the vanguard in the list. They just turn the disruption into an advantage, as you have gimped your list somewhere else to pay for said Vanguard. They just don't bring enough utility/staying power for their cost. Just like practically everything in C:BA.
The "synergy" you speak of is staggered by a turn, which can prove quite fatal. The drop pod units will arrive, be unable to assault and then get shot up before the vanguards arrive.
I disagree, I have used vanguard in many 'friendly' games and also in a tournament and no one could handle them. They drop in and destroy whatever you had planned. They then soak up a massive amount of fire allowing the rest of your army to move up into combat.
If the vanguard are in your list, whatever role you have equipped them for, they will complete it.
PipeAlley wrote: Well, you're also throwing the opp. off his game at least a little bit. Even the best players don't like a wrench in their works.
Also, turn 2 assault may allow you to synergize your charge with some other units: bikes, things that dropped podded, etc.
Good players don't care. They expect it as soon as they see the vanguard in the list. They just turn the disruption into an advantage, as you have gimped your list somewhere else to pay for said Vanguard. They just don't bring enough utility/staying power for their cost. Just like practically everything in C:BA.
The "synergy" you speak of is staggered by a turn, which can prove quite fatal. The drop pod units will arrive, be unable to assault and then get shot up before the vanguards arrive.
I disagree, I have used vanguard in many 'friendly' games and also in a tournament and no one could handle them. They drop in and destroy whatever you had planned. They then soak up a massive amount of fire allowing the rest of your army to move up into combat.
If the vanguard are in your list, whatever role you have equipped them for, they will complete it.
This is an interesting claim, because in reality they are trivial to handle due to their horrible wound/pt ratio. My plan A is to kill all your models. That guarantees the win. You bringing Vanguard helps my plan A greatly. They soak up no more fire than a standard tac marine and cost three times as much. More than three times the way you have them equipped.
It sounds like your opponents needlessly panic when presented with models that are really quite poor for the cost. Where I play, vanguard provoke mirth more than anything else.
Lucarikx wrote: I agree with Martel. Vanguard are cute, but I'd rather take 2 more Razorback ASM squads or a Stormraven for the points.
Lucarikx
The concept is very solid, but the cost is just too high. Like so many other units in 40K. GW's inability to fairly price units strikes again. That's all I'm asking for. Fast razorbacks can at least exploit some cover shenanigans, even though HP gimp them.
PipeAlley wrote: Well, you're also throwing the opp. off his game at least a little bit. Even the best players don't like a wrench in their works.
Also, turn 2 assault may allow you to synergize your charge with some other units: bikes, things that dropped podded, etc.
Good players don't care. They expect it as soon as they see the vanguard in the list. They just turn the disruption into an advantage, as you have gimped your list somewhere else to pay for said Vanguard. They just don't bring enough utility/staying power for their cost. Just like practically everything in C:BA.
The "synergy" you speak of is staggered by a turn, which can prove quite fatal. The drop pod units will arrive, be unable to assault and then get shot up before the vanguards arrive.
I disagree, I have used vanguard in many 'friendly' games and also in a tournament and no one could handle them. They drop in and destroy whatever you had planned. They then soak up a massive amount of fire allowing the rest of your army to move up into combat.
If the vanguard are in your list, whatever role you have equipped them for, they will complete it.
This is an interesting claim, because in reality they are trivial to handle due to their horrible wound/pt ratio. My plan A is to kill all your models. That guarantees the win. You bringing Vanguard helps my plan A greatly. They soak up no more fire than a standard tac marine and cost three times as much. More than three times the way you have them equipped.
Well I have experience using them your argument is based on theory.
in some other games I have used vanguard to take out a devestator squad which had 4 lacannons, the dev squad was on a hill in the corner because their weapons are 48 inch range so after I wiped them out there was nothing to shoot at me in my opponents next turn. My vanguard have jump packs so I can move 12' so it wasn't hard to get them back into the battle to assault other things.
I played against eldar in a tournament and he had 2 fire prisms on the flank together. I deep striked in and multi assaulted both tanks wiping them out.
I took out an imperial knight with my vanguard with power fists and melta bombs.
The fact is that every game the opponent sets up differently. Some games they have a dev squad that that is hiding in a ruin or on a hill and you can wipe them out. Some games they may have a couple of tanks sitting next to each other and you multi assault and wipe them out.
If your opponent has something nasty that you cnt deal with then the vanguard really help out. If there is a riptide that shoots your armies to bits of a tau crisis suits team that shoots your army to bits then deep strike in the vanguard and take them out.
LOL. My experience is NOT based on theory. I have played against them many times, especially when they were the rage in 5th. The single biggest problem with them, other than the outrageous cost, is that your opponent gets to see them in your list before set up. This means they can deploy to and effectively metagame your vanguards to where they are not effective. I can guarantee you that even three squads of these guys will kill nothing in my list that I care about.
Your opponents are cooperating with you in these games, giving you a false sense of efficacy. People who are familiar with vanguards can trivially neutralize them and then exploit the fact that you have gimped your list to bring them.
Don't mistake my inability to win games as a sign of not understanding the game. I KNOW exactly how to beat the Eldar. It's just that my codex doesn't allow me to bring an army that can mathematically accomplish this.
For what it's worth, the Blood Angels player at our FLGS has surprisingly good luck with Vanguards. He builds his army around deep strike assault and reserve roll manipulation (Do inquisitors manipulate deep strike rolls, or is that Grey Knights?). In any case, he is able to fairly reliably bring in two squads of 10 Vanguards on the same turn, and he simultaneously flat-out's all his fast tanks for a 24" move. It plays very different from other armies, and is successful against our local meta.
Martel732 wrote: LOL. My experience is NOT based on theory. I have played against them many times, especially when they were the rage in 5th. The single biggest problem with them, other than the outrageous cost, is that your opponent gets to see them in your list before set up. This means they can deploy to and effectively metagame your vanguards to where they are not effective. I can guarantee you that even three squads of these guys will kill nothing in my list that I care about.
Your opponents are cooperating with you in these games, giving you a false sense of efficacy. People who are familiar with vanguards can trivially neutralize them and then exploit the fact that you have gimped your list to bring them.
Your opponent cannot do anything to stop the vanguard killing whattever they want to. Also if you seeing me have vanguard in my list means that you don't deploy your dev squad on the hill that gives you LOS to the whole battle and instead you deploy behind your tactical marines in the middle of your army granting all of my troops a 5+ cover because you have to shoot through your own troops and your LOS is blocked by buildings etc then that is fine by me lol keep doing that.
Also remember it is not your whole army against my vanguards like you are painting the picture to be. I also deep strike drop pods (2 in turn 1 and 1 in turn 2) and i lso have my own dev squads and tanks etc.
If me having vanguard in my list forces you to deploy your whole army in 1 big bunch in the corner of the table then that's fine by me, I will spend 2 turns moving up my death company/assault marines on the flank you have no troops where there is LOS blocking buildings and so all my assault units will get into combat without even being shot at.
Just remember that I get 2 turns of shooting at you and 2 turns of moving the rest of my army including assaulting you with other troops before my vanguard arrive.
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DanielBeaver wrote: For what it's worth, the Blood Angels player at our FLGS has surprisingly good luck with Vanguards. He builds his army around deep strike assault and reserve roll manipulation (Do inquisitors manipulate deep strike rolls, or is that Grey Knights?). In any case, he is able to fairly reliably bring in two squads of 10 Vanguards on the same turn, and he simultaneously flat-out's all his fast tanks for a 24" move. It plays very different from other armies, and is successful against our local meta.
Blood ngels in jump packs can re-roll failed reserve rolls and only scatter 1d6 and if you have an inquisitor with servo skulls then the blood angles with jump packs do not scatter, it is very nasty.
I don't use dev squads. Because scatter lasers blow them off the table.
Actually, your opponent has several options. They can take advantage of the inability of Vanguard to deep strike into terrain. They can bubble wrap. They can set up kill zones to kill your overcosted vanguards while keeping LOS on your other army elements.
Yeah, you have other units, but fewer than normal, because you overpaid for vanguard. AND you are piecemealing your own forces. The Vanguards aren't there to be potential targets on turn 1, so the rest of your list is taking all the hits.
"Just remember that I get 2 turns of shooting at you and 2 turns of moving the rest of my army including assaulting you with other troops before my vanguard arrive. "
You are playing BA. No one cares about your shooting. Or your assault, really. You won't make it there.
"Blood ngels in jump packs can re-roll failed reserve rolls and only scatter 1d6 and if you have an inquisitor with servo skulls then the blood angles with jump packs do not scatter, it is very nasty."
No, not really. Been there,done that. Firepower still trumps it. Badly.
Martel732 wrote: I don't use dev squads. Because scatter lasers blow them off the table.
Actually, your opponent has several options. They can take advantage of the inability of Vanguard to deep strike into terrain. They can bubble wrap. They can set up kill zones to kill your overcosted vanguards while keeping LOS on your other army elements.
Yeah, you have other units, but fewer than normal, because you overpaid for vanguard. AND you are piecemealing your own forces. The Vanguards aren't there to be potential targets on turn 1, so the rest of your list is taking all the hits.
"Just remember that I get 2 turns of shooting at you and 2 turns of moving the rest of my army including assaulting you with other troops before my vanguard arrive. "
You are playing BA. No one cares about your shooting. Or your assault, really. You won't make it there.
"Blood ngels in jump packs can re-roll failed reserve rolls and only scatter 1d6 and if you have an inquisitor with servo skulls then the blood angles with jump packs do not scatter, it is very nasty."
No, not really. Been there,done that. Firepower still trumps it. Badly.
Debating with you is pointless, you believe whatever nonsense you want to believe and I will continue to know that Vanguard are worth it.
Martel732 wrote: I don't use dev squads. Because scatter lasers blow them off the table.
Actually, your opponent has several options. They can take advantage of the inability of Vanguard to deep strike into terrain. They can bubble wrap. They can set up kill zones to kill your overcosted vanguards while keeping LOS on your other army elements.
Yeah, you have other units, but fewer than normal, because you overpaid for vanguard. AND you are piecemealing your own forces. The Vanguards aren't there to be potential targets on turn 1, so the rest of your list is taking all the hits.
"Just remember that I get 2 turns of shooting at you and 2 turns of moving the rest of my army including assaulting you with other troops before my vanguard arrive. "
You are playing BA. No one cares about your shooting. Or your assault, really. You won't make it there.
"Blood ngels in jump packs can re-roll failed reserve rolls and only scatter 1d6 and if you have an inquisitor with servo skulls then the blood angles with jump packs do not scatter, it is very nasty."
No, not really. Been there,done that. Firepower still trumps it. Badly.
Just for fun Martel, can you imagine a winning vanguard strategy? I can teach any opp. (and I do especially new players) exactly how to beat my Orks. Funny thing is a lot of people don't listen to me because they either think I'm tricking them or think they know it all.
Please accept the OP's challenge of making a viable Vanguard list.
There isn't one, because the BA are overcosted across the board. The BA can't muster a consistently winning force even using the most efficient units in the codex. Or at least what passes for efficiency in that codex. No, I can't imagine a winning Vanguard strategy. You simply can't spend ~500 on 15 meqs and expect things to go your way. It didn't work in 5th and certainly won't work in 6th.
Martel732 wrote: I don't use dev squads. Because scatter lasers blow them off the table.
Actually, your opponent has several options. They can take advantage of the inability of Vanguard to deep strike into terrain. They can bubble wrap. They can set up kill zones to kill your overcosted vanguards while keeping LOS on your other army elements.
Yeah, you have other units, but fewer than normal, because you overpaid for vanguard. AND you are piecemealing your own forces. The Vanguards aren't there to be potential targets on turn 1, so the rest of your list is taking all the hits.
"Just remember that I get 2 turns of shooting at you and 2 turns of moving the rest of my army including assaulting you with other troops before my vanguard arrive. "
You are playing BA. No one cares about your shooting. Or your assault, really. You won't make it there.
"Blood ngels in jump packs can re-roll failed reserve rolls and only scatter 1d6 and if you have an inquisitor with servo skulls then the blood angles with jump packs do not scatter, it is very nasty."
No, not really. Been there,done that. Firepower still trumps it. Badly.
Debating with you is pointless, you believe whatever nonsense you want to believe and I will continue to know that Vanguard are worth it.
It's not a belief. It is a fact, borne out by mathematics and game results. You can also continue to pay for horribly overcosted models. I like it how known facts about BA are now "nonsense".
Martel732 wrote: There isn't one, because the BA are overcosted across the board. The BA can't muster a consistently winning force even using the most efficient units in the codex. Or at least what passes for efficiency in that codex. No, I can't imagine a winning Vanguard strategy. You simply can't spend ~500 on 15 meqs and expect things to go your way. It didn't work in 5th and certainly won't work in 6th.
Martel732 wrote: I don't use dev squads. Because scatter lasers blow them off the table.
Actually, your opponent has several options. They can take advantage of the inability of Vanguard to deep strike into terrain. They can bubble wrap. They can set up kill zones to kill your overcosted vanguards while keeping LOS on your other army elements.
Yeah, you have other units, but fewer than normal, because you overpaid for vanguard. AND you are piecemealing your own forces. The Vanguards aren't there to be potential targets on turn 1, so the rest of your list is taking all the hits.
"Just remember that I get 2 turns of shooting at you and 2 turns of moving the rest of my army including assaulting you with other troops before my vanguard arrive. "
You are playing BA. No one cares about your shooting. Or your assault, really. You won't make it there.
"Blood ngels in jump packs can re-roll failed reserve rolls and only scatter 1d6 and if you have an inquisitor with servo skulls then the blood angles with jump packs do not scatter, it is very nasty."
No, not really. Been there,done that. Firepower still trumps it. Badly.
Debating with you is pointless, you believe whatever nonsense you want to believe and I will continue to know that Vanguard are worth it.
It's not a belief. It is a fact, borne out by mathematics and game results. You can also continue to pay for horribly overcosted models. I like it how known facts about BA are now "nonsense".
Known facts? The fact is they are great, I use them. Your only strategy is to bubble wrap your whole army in one corner of the board and has highlighted that is not a great strategy. Might work if you are tau or IG but not for nearly ever other army. lso you said blood angels are crap at shooting, we still have dev squads and tanks and as you should know 6th edition allows for allies so I could easily ally in some eldar for shooting or imperial guard. Or I could be an eldar player and ally in Blood angles so I can get Vanguard. it is very simple.
Also your tactic for dealing with vanguard will make you lose games. Bubble wrapping your whole army in one corner means you wont be able to get the relic if playing that mission or get objectives or get line breaker etc etc.
Me taking vanguard will make you put everything together in 1 corner meaning you will lose the game.
Scouts are there just to bulk up the scoring. Skulls placed so that the opponent has to move too close to the flat out moving raiders to get rid of them. LRs have a 5+ cover due to shield. Scouts go to ground until turn 2 when opponent will have more pressing issues.
It has absolutely no AA. I could not fit a raven in there and keep it decent enough.
There is my best shot.
Automatically Appended Next Post: VVs are stupidly overcosted for what they do however!
I don't have to put everything in a corner turn 1. I never once said that. YOU said that.
I can bubblewrap if necessary by using both units and terrain. As long as my units can support each other, I don't need to group up in the corner. This assumes that I even have anything I care that much about. A big part of this game is spreading the wealth out amongst many units or using indestructible death stars. Both approaches make your vanguards useless. Being a Space Wolf player makes your vanguards useless.
Yes, your Vanguards will do damage. But as I pointed out above, this cost 500 pts out of your list. 500 pts that will be easily eliminated in one of shooting.
Bringing in allies muddies the water a lot. Yes, mixing in a good codex will make BA better, but won't change the fact that vanguards are extremely overcosted and have horrendous durability.
Funny, champagne_socialist, that you think sitting in a corner will make you lose. A lot of the armies in the game LIVE on sitting in the corner.
Devs are literally the worst unit in the BA 'dex right now next to Baals, Sanguinary Guard, and finally Vanguard Vets. Vanguard Vets are not as amazing as you think.
I want you to explain to me how you're gonna deal with this 1850 Tau army (based on the list that got 2nd at FoB Inv) while using Vanguard. Its extremely mobile and focuses on constantly pressing with Riptides, while taking objectives with large blobs of Kroot.
Lucarikx wrote: Funny, champagne_socialist, that you think sitting in a corner will make you lose. A lot of the armies in the game LIVE on sitting in the corner.
Devs are literally the worst unit in the BA 'dex right now next to Baals, Sanguinary Guard, and finally Vanguard Vets. Vanguard Vets are not as amazing as you think.
I want you to explain to me how you're gonna deal with this 1850 Tau army (based on the list that got 2nd at FoB Inv) while using Vanguard. Its extremely mobile and focuses on constantly pressing with Riptides, while taking objectives with large blobs of Kroot.
Baals are not the worst unit in the codex by a pretty large margin. They are fast, which means they can lay down 12 shots while moving 6". In the FA slot. They only suffer in 6th because of hull points. Yes, WS make them look lame. But to quote Cheryl, DUH!
For worst units, you also forgot any non-level 1 libby, non-Mephiston HQ, and DC.
Well, Baals can be useful. Especially in an AV13 wall list. Like most things in the 'dex, they're a bit overpriced, but do have a nice place in the army, as nothing really competes with them in the FA slot other than Attack Bikes.
And yeah, all of our SCHQs other than Meph are terrible. Heck, we only have 2 good HQs, Meph and a Lvl 1 Libby with no upgrades.
Martel732 wrote: I don't have to put everything in a corner turn 1. I never once said that. YOU said that.
I can bubblewrap if necessary by using both units and terrain. As long as my units can support each other, I don't need to group up in the corner. This assumes that I even have anything I care that much about. A big part of this game is spreading the wealth out amongst many units or using indestructible death stars. Both approaches make your vanguards useless. Being a Space Wolf player makes your vanguards useless.
Yes, your Vanguards will do damage. But as I pointed out above, this cost 500 pts out of your list. 500 pts that will be easily eliminated in one of shooting.
Bringing in allies muddies the water a lot. Yes, mixing in a good codex will make BA better, but won't change the fact that vanguards are extremely overcosted and have horrendous durability.
Where are you getting 500 points from? I usually only take 1 vanguard squad and if I am using it as a tank hunter it is 185 points which includes 3 melta bombs,1 krak grenandes and a power fist. 185 points to take out 1 or 2 tanks is worth it. If I was up against Tau and wanted to use them to take out a riptide then I would maybe change the load out but 3 melt bombs a krak grenande and a power fist should be enough, I might add on a few naked anguard to take wounds and even then they automatically come with krak grenandes.
You keep saying vanguard are useless but they destroy tanks with ease or dedicated range squads such as devestator squads or crisis suits etc. And you keep acting as if your whole army will be alive on turn 2 when they arrive and that noting else from my army will be in assault range by turn 2.
Allies doesn't muddy the waters at all. It is part of 6th edition and we are debating if vanguard are good. Doesn't matter if the vanguard are in a 100% blood angles army or an army wioth Tau or an eldar army who have got some blood angels allies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lucarikx wrote: Well, Baals can be useful. Especially in an AV13 wall list. Like most things in the 'dex, they're a bit overpriced, but do have a nice place in the army, as nothing really competes with them in the FA slot other than Attack Bikes.
And yeah, all of our SCHQs other than Meph are terrible. Heck, we only have 2 good HQs, Meph and a Lvl 1 Libby with no upgrades.
Lucarikx
I would love meph but his power weapon is ap3. for 250 points he really needs an ap2 weapon.
I still need an answer to that Tau list. If a Tau player doesn't intercept that Vanguard squad with an Iontide, he deserves to lose the game. Act like the entire army is gonna be alive T2? Do you know how difficult is its to put down 3 Riptides in 1 turn?
" If I was up against Tau and wanted to use them to take out a riptide then I would maybe change the load out but 3 melt bombs a krak grenande and a power fist should be enough, I might add on a few naked anguard to take wounds and even then they automatically come with krak grenandes. "
What about a TAC situation? That's another huge problem with BA. What does your list look like against an unknown opponent?
I'm getting 500 pts from three squads. So at least with only one squad, you are limiting your losses to 185 pts for 5 guys. And no one is going to let you assault their Riptides with your Vanguard.
" And you keep acting as if your whole army will be alive on turn 2 when they arrive and that noting else from my army will be in assault range by turn 2. "
And you keep acting like your list didn't get the piss shot out of it on turn 1 because you are BA. And BA throw weight is miserable. What do you expect to accomplish in one turn of BA shooting?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lucarikx wrote: I still need an answer to that Tau list. If a Tau player doesn't intercept that Vanguard squad with an Iontide, he deserves to lose the game. Act like the entire army is gonna be alive T2? Do you know how difficult is its to put down 3 Riptides in 1 turn?
Lucarikx
BA are lucky to kill a single Riptide over the course of a GAME.
"I would love meph but his power weapon is ap3. for 250 points he really needs an ap2 weapon."
Actually, that's not his biggest problem at all. He's not to take on other ICs, he's a bully. He's one of the best bullies ever, too. His problem is that a bunch of jerk off plasma vets can kill him pretty easily. Again, a shooting problem.
Lucarikx wrote: Funny, champagne_socialist, that you think sitting in a corner will make you lose. A lot of the armies in the game LIVE on sitting in the corner.
Devs are literally the worst unit in the BA 'dex right now next to Baals, Sanguinary Guard, and finally Vanguard Vets. Vanguard Vets are not as amazing as you think.
I want you to explain to me how you're gonna deal with this 1850 Tau army (based on the list that got 2nd at FoB Inv) while using Vanguard. Its extremely mobile and focuses on constantly pressing with Riptides, while taking objectives with large blobs of Kroot.
Heavy:
Broadsides (3 man, Missiles, x3 Target Locks, x6 Marker Drones)
Sky Ray (SMS, Blacksun)
Sky Ray (SMS, Blacksun)
Lucarikx
Woah woah woah... hold the phone! BAALS? I love baals! The rest - yep im with ya!
Well a drop pod army would do well. tactical troops in drop pods with bolters and a flamer to take out the kroot and sternguard drop pods with metlas to take out the riptides. vanguard arriving in turn 2 would charge whatever hasn't been killed by all my drop pods arriving in turn 1and all the drop pods arriving in turn 2.
Sternguard w/ 10 Combi-meltas (assuming half of em aren't killed dead my intercepting Ion accelerators) hit 6 times, do 5 wounds, save 2~. Look, you did 3 wounds to a Riptide! Time for the entire first wave to die.
Do not assume a Tau player will let you keep stuff like Sternguard or Vanguard around.
I still need a fleshed out list that can have a chance of beating that list.
Martel732 wrote: " If I was up against Tau and wanted to use them to take out a riptide then I would maybe change the load out but 3 melt bombs a krak grenande and a power fist should be enough, I might add on a few naked anguard to take wounds and even then they automatically come with krak grenandes. "
What about a TAC situation? That's another huge problem with BA. What does your list look like against an unknown opponent?
I'm getting 500 pts from three squads. So at least with only one squad, you are limiting your losses to 185 pts for 5 guys. And no one is going to let you assault their Riptides with your Vanguard.
" And you keep acting as if your whole army will be alive on turn 2 when they arrive and that noting else from my army will be in assault range by turn 2. "
And you keep acting like your list didn't get the piss shot out of it on turn 1 because you are BA. And BA throw weight is miserable. What do you expect to accomplish in one turn of BA shooting?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lucarikx wrote: I still need an answer to that Tau list. If a Tau player doesn't intercept that Vanguard squad with an Iontide, he deserves to lose the game. Act like the entire army is gonna be alive T2? Do you know how difficult is its to put down 3 Riptides in 1 turn?
Lucarikx
BA are lucky to kill a single Riptide over the course of a GAME.
"I would love meph but his power weapon is ap3. for 250 points he really needs an ap2 weapon."
Actually, that's not his biggest problem at all. He's not to take on other ICs, he's a bully. He's one of the best bullies ever, too. His problem is that a bunch of jerk off plasma vets can kill him pretty easily. Again, a shooting problem.
if I use vanguard I use a drop pod heavy army and a deep strike heavy army.
It is very easy to use vanguard effectively, you are just in denial that they are not effective. A close combat unit that can assault the turn it deep strikes is amazing.
"It is very easy to use vanguard effectively, you are just in denial that they are not effective. A close combat unit that can assault the turn it deep strikes is amazing"
Not when its 5 T4 Marines........ You need to understand that the meta is about durability more than CC damage output at this point. IG are gonna make that even more concrete.
Sternguard w/ 10 Combi-meltas (assuming half of em aren't killed dead my intercepting Ion accelerators) hit 6 times, do 5 wounds, save 2~. Look, you did 3 wounds to a Riptide! Time for the entire first wave to die.
Do not assume a Tau player will let you keep stuff like Sternguard or Vanguard around.
I still need a fleshed out list that can have a chance of beating that list.
Lucarikx
I wouldnt put 10 in the same unit.
also if the kroot start off the table then my bolters in drop pods dont deep strike in 1st turn, I use the melta guys to deep strike in.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lucarikx wrote: "It is very easy to use vanguard effectively, you are just in denial that they are not effective. A close combat unit that can assault the turn it deep strikes is amazing"
Not when its 5 T4 Marines........ You need to understand that the meta is about durability more than CC damage output at this point. IG are gonna make that even more concrete.
Lucarikx
i use them, they work. They can assault from deep strike so their tougness makes no difference. I assault a tank there is no overwatch and i destroy it.
Lucarikx wrote: I still need an answer to that Tau list. If a Tau player doesn't intercept that Vanguard squad with an Iontide, he deserves to lose the game. Act like the entire army is gonna be alive T2? Do you know how difficult is its to put down 3 Riptides in 1 turn?
Lucarikx
When I take my riptides and I see VV deepstriking I will ripple fire my SMS. Also, I usually take a Firebase Formation. Which means my broadsides and 1 Riptide will have preferred enemy. That means 40 ignore cover shots at BS 3.5 coming at the VV. I particularly do not like to fire the ION template without markerlight support.
Sternguard w/ 10 Combi-meltas (assuming half of em aren't killed dead my intercepting Ion accelerators) hit 6 times, do 5 wounds, save 2~. Look, you did 3 wounds to a Riptide! Time for the entire first wave to die.
Do not assume a Tau player will let you keep stuff like Sternguard or Vanguard around.
I still need a fleshed out list that can have a chance of beating that list.
Lucarikx
I wouldnt put 10 in the same unit.
also if the kroot start off the table then my bolters in drop pods dont deep strike in 1st turn, I use the melta guys to deep strike in.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lucarikx wrote: "It is very easy to use vanguard effectively, you are just in denial that they are not effective. A close combat unit that can assault the turn it deep strikes is amazing"
Not when its 5 T4 Marines........ You need to understand that the meta is about durability more than CC damage output at this point. IG are gonna make that even more concrete.
Lucarikx
i use them, they work. They can assault from deep strike so their tougness makes no difference. I assault a tank there is no overwatch and i destroy it.
Show me a list that beats the one I gave you then.
I've played on both sides of the table dude. BA Vanguards are terribad in a competitive environment.
Lucarikx wrote: I still need an answer to that Tau list. If a Tau player doesn't intercept that Vanguard squad with an Iontide, he deserves to lose the game. Act like the entire army is gonna be alive T2? Do you know how difficult is its to put down 3 Riptides in 1 turn?
Lucarikx
When I take my riptides and I see VV deepstriking I will ripple fire my SMS. Also, I usually take a Firebase Formation. Which means my broadsides and 1 Riptide will have preferred enemy. That means 40 ignore cover shots at BS 3.5 coming at the VV. I particularly do not like to fire the ION template without markerlight support.
Point proven, either way. No Tau player will let you get away with DSing units.
Sternguard w/ 10 Combi-meltas (assuming half of em aren't killed dead my intercepting Ion accelerators) hit 6 times, do 5 wounds, save 2~. Look, you did 3 wounds to a Riptide! Time for the entire first wave to die.
Do not assume a Tau player will let you keep stuff like Sternguard or Vanguard around.
I still need a fleshed out list that can have a chance of beating that list.
Lucarikx
I wouldnt put 10 in the same unit.
also if the kroot start off the table then my bolters in drop pods dont deep strike in 1st turn, I use the melta guys to deep strike in.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lucarikx wrote: "It is very easy to use vanguard effectively, you are just in denial that they are not effective. A close combat unit that can assault the turn it deep strikes is amazing"
Not when its 5 T4 Marines........ You need to understand that the meta is about durability more than CC damage output at this point. IG are gonna make that even more concrete.
Lucarikx
i use them, they work. They can assault from deep strike so their tougness makes no difference. I assault a tank there is no overwatch and i destroy it.
Show me a list that beats the one I gave you then.
I've played on both sides of the table dude. BA Vanguards are terribad in a competitive environment.
Lucarikx wrote: I still need an answer to that Tau list. If a Tau player doesn't intercept that Vanguard squad with an Iontide, he deserves to lose the game. Act like the entire army is gonna be alive T2? Do you know how difficult is its to put down 3 Riptides in 1 turn?
Lucarikx
When I take my riptides and I see VV deepstriking I will ripple fire my SMS. Also, I usually take a Firebase Formation. Which means my broadsides and 1 Riptide will have preferred enemy. That means 40 ignore cover shots at BS 3.5 coming at the VV. I particularly do not like to fire the ION template without markerlight support.
Point proven, either way. No Tau player will let you get away with DSing units.
Lucarikx
So being able to take out tanks with ease is useless? being able to take out rnged weapons units is useless hahaha
Like I said in my tournament a squad of 8 vanguard destroyed an Imperial knight, they could easily destroy a wraithknight etc etc
"So being able to take out tanks with ease is useless?"
Most tanks can be taken out in a more efficient manner. Vanguards do have some utility against WS in particular, however, against nearly every other list they are a waste of time.
My BA rarely field a tank worth 165 pts, so you are automatically in the hole the price difference between the tank you just murdered and the squad I just slaughtered. I won't let you multi assault two non-rhino tanks.
" you are just in denial that they are not effective. A close combat unit that can assault the turn it deep strikes is amazing."
If they were fairly priced, I would agree. But they are not. They are horribly overcosted.
Lucarikx wrote: Stop avoiding the question of making a list. Knights are terribly easy to kill, sadly.
Lucarikx
Why would I make a list to have an imaginary battle with another list over the internet. rather pointless.
I made the thread about vanguard and I was told they will die, they won't kill anything they are over priced. I went to a tournament and played in 3 games and they destroyed whatever I wanted them to destroy when they arrived. Now I am beiong told again that they are useless etc hahaha
Now you have found a tau list that came 2nd in some tounrnament and you want me to create a list to defeat it hahaha whatever next hahaha are you going to pull out an army list that has won a tournament for the last 5 years in a row and ask me to name a list that would beat that hahaha.
Lucarikx wrote: Stop avoiding the question of making a list. Knights are terribly easy to kill, sadly.
Lucarikx
Why would I make a list to have an imaginary battle with another list over the internet. rather pointless.
I made the thread about vanguard and I was told they will die, they won't kill anything they are over priced. I went to a tournament and played in 3 games and they destroyed whatever I wanted them to destroy when they arrived. Now I am beiong told again that they are useless etc hahaha
Now you have found a tau list that came 2nd in some tounrnament and you want me to create a list to defeat it hahaha whatever next hahaha are you going to pull out an army list that has won a tournament for the last 5 years in a row and ask me to name a list that would beat that hahaha.
You also went 1-2. That's lower than my BA win rate. It also sounds like your opponents misplayed against your VV. I've played against VV many, many times because people like you back in 5th thought they were good for the exact reasons you are giving. You are paying too many points for the capability to perhaps kill one thing your opponent may or may not care about.
Lucarikx wrote: Stop avoiding the question of making a list. Knights are terribly easy to kill, sadly.
Lucarikx
Why would I make a list to have an imaginary battle with another list over the internet. rather pointless.
I made the thread about vanguard and I was told they will die, they won't kill anything they are over priced. I went to a tournament and played in 3 games and they destroyed whatever I wanted them to destroy when they arrived. Now I am beiong told again that they are useless etc hahaha
Now you have found a tau list that came 2nd in some tounrnament and you want me to create a list to defeat it hahaha whatever next hahaha are you going to pull out an army list that has won a tournament for the last 5 years in a row and ask me to name a list that would beat that hahaha.
Mind if I asked what armies you played against? If you didn't beat Serpent Spam, Triptide, Seer Council, Screamerstar, IG Medusa Spam, Leafblower, White Scars Bike, Iron Hands Bikes, Necron Wraith Spam, or a decent Typhus Zombie + Heldrake list, it isn't competitive enough.
Also, do you even know what Feast of Blades is? 2nd at the FoB Inv is extremely, extremely hard to do. "Some tournament"? Not really.
Lucarikx wrote: Stop avoiding the question of making a list. Knights are terribly easy to kill, sadly.
Lucarikx
He's got nothing for your Tau list, because Tau are 2.5 tiers above BA at least.
I wouldn't create a list to have an imaginary battle with anyone over the internet, I actually have a life.
Doesn't change that fact that neither you nor I can make a list that would beat that list more than 30% of the time. I at least admit the severe limitations of C:BA in 6th edition.
Lucarikx wrote: Stop avoiding the question of making a list. Knights are terribly easy to kill, sadly.
Lucarikx
Why would I make a list to have an imaginary battle with another list over the internet. rather pointless.
I made the thread about vanguard and I was told they will die, they won't kill anything they are over priced. I went to a tournament and played in 3 games and they destroyed whatever I wanted them to destroy when they arrived. Now I am beiong told again that they are useless etc hahaha
Now you have found a tau list that came 2nd in some tounrnament and you want me to create a list to defeat it hahaha whatever next hahaha are you going to pull out an army list that has won a tournament for the last 5 years in a row and ask me to name a list that would beat that hahaha.
You also went 1-2. That's lower than my BA win rate. It also sounds like your opponents misplayed against your VV. I've played against VV many, many times because people like you back in 5th thought they were good for the exact reasons you are giving. You are paying too many points for the capability to perhaps kill one thing your opponent may or may not care about.
Well as i said the tournament was not one that played to my strengths. It was a doubles tournament and my necron partner pulled out so I got paired with some random player on the day of the tournament, everyone else knew their partner weeks in advance so they made their 2 lists together and had games practicing etc etc and lets just say the player I got paired with brought the wrong kind of army to a tournament that allowed apocolypse units
Lucarikx wrote: Stop avoiding the question of making a list. Knights are terribly easy to kill, sadly.
Lucarikx
Why would I make a list to have an imaginary battle with another list over the internet. rather pointless.
I made the thread about vanguard and I was told they will die, they won't kill anything they are over priced. I went to a tournament and played in 3 games and they destroyed whatever I wanted them to destroy when they arrived. Now I am beiong told again that they are useless etc hahaha
Now you have found a tau list that came 2nd in some tounrnament and you want me to create a list to defeat it hahaha whatever next hahaha are you going to pull out an army list that has won a tournament for the last 5 years in a row and ask me to name a list that would beat that hahaha.
Mind if I asked what armies you played against? If you didn't beat Serpent Spam, Triptide, Seer Council, Screamerstar, IG Medusa Spam, Leafblower, White Scars Bike, Iron Hands Bikes, Necron Wraith Spam, or a decent Typhus Zombie + Heldrake list, it isn't competitive enough.
Also, do you even know what Feast of Blades is? 2nd at the FoB Inv is extremely, extremely hard to do. "Some tournament"? Not really.
Lucarikx
I think you are not going to get through. I know a group of GW enthusiasts at another store that insist there is nothing wrong with BA at all. Even though they can't win a game against anyone at my store. This poster seems a lot like that crowd. Denying the utter overcostedness of VV is not a good sign.
Lucarikx wrote: Stop avoiding the question of making a list. Knights are terribly easy to kill, sadly.
Lucarikx
Why would I make a list to have an imaginary battle with another list over the internet. rather pointless.
I made the thread about vanguard and I was told they will die, they won't kill anything they are over priced. I went to a tournament and played in 3 games and they destroyed whatever I wanted them to destroy when they arrived. Now I am beiong told again that they are useless etc hahaha
Now you have found a tau list that came 2nd in some tounrnament and you want me to create a list to defeat it hahaha whatever next hahaha are you going to pull out an army list that has won a tournament for the last 5 years in a row and ask me to name a list that would beat that hahaha.
You also went 1-2. That's lower than my BA win rate. It also sounds like your opponents misplayed against your VV. I've played against VV many, many times because people like you back in 5th thought they were good for the exact reasons you are giving. You are paying too many points for the capability to perhaps kill one thing your opponent may or may not care about.
Well as i said the tournament was not one that played to my strengths. It was a doubles tournament and my necron partner pulled out so I got paired with some random player on the day of the tournament, everyone else knew their partner weeks in advance so they made their 2 lists together and had games practicing etc etc and lets just say the player I got paired with brought the wrong kind of army to a tournament that allowed apocolypse units
Then try again in a tournament where you "play to your strengths". The results probably won't change. Also, doubles tournaments aren't good deciders for what units good and whats not.
Lucarikx wrote: Then your argument is invalid, champagne_socialist, as you cannot give evidence that Vanguard are capable of winning games in tournaments.
Lucarikx
Ok from now on I am not going to reply to you. I have gioven my views how vanguard are effective, they take out tanks with ease and long ranged shooting units. I don't wish to keep repeating myself so I am just going to ignore you as it is getting boring.
Lucarikx wrote: Then your argument is invalid, champagne_socialist, as you cannot give evidence that Vanguard are capable of winning games in tournaments.
Lucarikx
Ok from now on I am not going to reply to you. I have gioven my views how vanguard are effective, they take out tanks with ease and long ranged shooting units. I don't wish to keep repeating myself so I am just going to ignore you as it is getting boring.
And you have ignored completely the high cost you are paying to do so. No one claims that they can't do these things (sometimes), but they do it once (if you are lucky) and then die. If these guys were appropriately costed, then you would be correct.
Fine with me. This is the forum to discuss tactics, so everyone should be able to put their view in. If you don't want to discuss the tactic and just keep repeating yourself, go right ahead.
Lucarikx wrote: Stop avoiding the question of making a list. Knights are terribly easy to kill, sadly.
Lucarikx
Why would I make a list to have an imaginary battle with another list over the internet. rather pointless.
I made the thread about vanguard and I was told they will die, they won't kill anything they are over priced. I went to a tournament and played in 3 games and they destroyed whatever I wanted them to destroy when they arrived. Now I am beiong told again that they are useless etc hahaha
Now you have found a tau list that came 2nd in some tounrnament and you want me to create a list to defeat it hahaha whatever next hahaha are you going to pull out an army list that has won a tournament for the last 5 years in a row and ask me to name a list that would beat that hahaha.
Mind if I asked what armies you played against? If you didn't beat Serpent Spam, Triptide, Seer Council, Screamerstar, IG Medusa Spam, Leafblower, White Scars Bike, Iron Hands Bikes, Necron Wraith Spam, or a decent Typhus Zombie + Heldrake list, it isn't competitive enough.
Also, do you even know what Feast of Blades is? 2nd at the FoB Inv is extremely, extremely hard to do. "Some tournament"? Not really.
Lucarikx
I think you are not going to get through. I know a group of GW enthusiasts at another store that insist there is nothing wrong with BA at all. Even though they can't win a game against anyone at my store. This poster seems a lot like that crowd. Denying the utter overcostedness of VV is not a good sign.
Lucarikx wrote: Stop avoiding the question of making a list. Knights are terribly easy to kill, sadly.
Lucarikx
Why would I make a list to have an imaginary battle with another list over the internet. rather pointless.
I made the thread about vanguard and I was told they will die, they won't kill anything they are over priced. I went to a tournament and played in 3 games and they destroyed whatever I wanted them to destroy when they arrived. Now I am beiong told again that they are useless etc hahaha
Now you have found a tau list that came 2nd in some tounrnament and you want me to create a list to defeat it hahaha whatever next hahaha are you going to pull out an army list that has won a tournament for the last 5 years in a row and ask me to name a list that would beat that hahaha.
You also went 1-2. That's lower than my BA win rate. It also sounds like your opponents misplayed against your VV. I've played against VV many, many times because people like you back in 5th thought they were good for the exact reasons you are giving. You are paying too many points for the capability to perhaps kill one thing your opponent may or may not care about.
Well as i said the tournament was not one that played to my strengths. It was a doubles tournament and my necron partner pulled out so I got paired with some random player on the day of the tournament, everyone else knew their partner weeks in advance so they made their 2 lists together and had games practicing etc etc and lets just say the player I got paired with brought the wrong kind of army to a tournament that allowed apocolypse units
You play BA. You have no strengths in 6th ed.
You are the one in denial, you tried to paint the picture that they are too expensive but for 185 points they can take out any tank when they deep strike in, that will get them their cost in points back by destroying the tank and then soaking up fiore power so the rest of the army lives.
You also think games are won and lost on paper, evidenced by you asking me to write a list to fight another list hahaha
You also base your whole argument that only the vanguard will be in m oponents deployment zone by turn 2. Debating with you is pointless as you don't understand tactics.
Lucarikx wrote: Then your argument is invalid, champagne_socialist, as you cannot give evidence that Vanguard are capable of winning games in tournaments.
Lucarikx
Ok from now on I am not going to reply to you. I have gioven my views how vanguard are effective, they take out tanks with ease and long ranged shooting units. I don't wish to keep repeating myself so I am just going to ignore you as it is getting boring.
And you have ignored completely the high cost you are paying to do so. No one claims that they can't do these things (sometimes), but they do it once (if you are lucky) and then die. If these guys were appropriately costed, then you would be correct.
185 points to take out 1 or 2 tanks if they are next to each other. That is cost effective.
Too many ifs for my liking. "If they are next to each other", 'if you get the charge", "if you don't mishap", "if I still have a chance vs Tau"..................
Martel732 wrote: "You also think games are won and lost on paper, evidenced by you asking me to write a list to fight another list hahaha"
I didn't ask for that. I don't give a feth what you list is. I know what BA can put on the table.
" then soaking up fiore power so the rest of the army lives. "
Surely your opponents can kill more than 5 tac marines in a turn of shooting. VV suck at soaking up fire because they are overcosted.
"185 points to take out 1 or 2 tanks if they are next to each other. That is cost effective."
You are making a huge assumption that you will be 100% successful, and that your opponent has such a target that you can reach.
Blood angles scatter 1d6. I always take an inquisitor with 3 servo skulls and i could take 6 servo skulls with 2 inquisitors for about 65 points. Servo skulls mean that my vanguard do not scatter so I can place them where I want and assault.
It is very unlikely that 3 power fist attacks and 4 melta bombs to the rear armour of a tank wont destroy it but this is a game of chance so anything can happen.
yes my opponent can destroy 5 marines but it is too late when it is his turn, the vanguard have done their job and destroyed that tank or that wraithknight etc etc. I would also add that vanguard are to be used in conjunction with the rest of your army so on my turn 2 my other drop pods deep strike in, my fyers arrive, my other units deep strike in such as sanguinary guard or death comany, units on the table have moved into assault range etc. My vanguard will just be one of many units in my opponents table.
Martel732 wrote: "Blood angles scatter 1d6. I always take an inquisitor with 3 servo skulls and i could take 6 servo skulls with 2 inquisitors for about 65 points."
So you are paying even MORE points for this little trick. And that's what it is. A trick. So you went to all this effort to kill a predator. Good job.
"turn 2 my other drop pods deep strike in, my fyers arrive"
Not all of them. They don't get descent of angels. Your list that you refuse to show anyone sounds horribly piecemealed and easily handled.
"sanguinary guard or death comany"
Really, brah? I thought you were trying to be serious here.
"units on the table have moved into assault range"
You mean the units that have been taking all the fire because everything else was arriving on turn 2?
"My vanguard will just be one of many units in my opponents table"
Not too many, because BA have horrible model count. Especially if you are using sanguinary guard or DC.
it is not paying more for the trick it is a by-product. I like plasma cannon servitors so the servo skulls means that the plasma cannons only scatter 1d6. It also stops enemy troups scouting or infiltrating within 18 inches of a skull.
This sounds like a list that could be legitimately tabled in 3 turns. C:BA was codex: trap units in 5th, and has gotten even worse in 6th. And it sounds like this list has fallen into nearly every one.
Martel732 wrote: This sounds like a list that could be legitimately tabled in 3 turns. C:BA was codex: trap units in 5th, and has gotten even worse in 6th. And it sounds like this list has fallen into nearly every one.
Martel732 wrote: This sounds like a list that could be legitimately tabled in 3 turns. C:BA was codex: trap units in 5th, and has gotten even worse in 6th. And it sounds like this list has fallen into nearly every one.
In your opinion, which to me means diddly squat.
Between 5th and 6th, I've faced nearly every permutation of BA list possible. I've beaten them 85% of the time, because I understand the codex well. VERY well. I was even giving C:SM players the blues a bit until the gravstar come into vogue. You can ignore my opinion, but that doesn't give any validity to yours. I have mathematics and practical experience on my side. And many rapings from Tau and Eldar on my resume as well. I know how they work in the hands of good players, and BA have no answers.
Martel732 wrote: This sounds like a list that could be legitimately tabled in 3 turns. C:BA was codex: trap units in 5th, and has gotten even worse in 6th. And it sounds like this list has fallen into nearly every one.
In your opinion, which to me means diddly squat.
Between 5th and 6th, I've faced nearly every permutation of BA list possible. I've beaten them 85% of the time, because I understand the codex well. VERY well. I was even giving C:SM players the blues a bit until the gravstar come into vogue. You can ignore my opinion, but that doesn't give any validity to yours. I have mathematics and practical experience on my side. And many rapings from Tau and Eldar on my resume as well. I know how they work in the hands of good players, and BA have no answers.
we can all make arguments based on anectodal evidence eg I have played 20 gmes with blood angels and won 18 etc etc.
Martel732 wrote: This sounds like a list that could be legitimately tabled in 3 turns. C:BA was codex: trap units in 5th, and has gotten even worse in 6th. And it sounds like this list has fallen into nearly every one.
In your opinion, which to me means diddly squat.
Then don't ask for opinions in tactics if you don't want help.
Martel732 wrote: This sounds like a list that could be legitimately tabled in 3 turns. C:BA was codex: trap units in 5th, and has gotten even worse in 6th. And it sounds like this list has fallen into nearly every one.
In your opinion, which to me means diddly squat.
Between 5th and 6th, I've faced nearly every permutation of BA list possible. I've beaten them 85% of the time, because I understand the codex well. VERY well. I was even giving C:SM players the blues a bit until the gravstar come into vogue. You can ignore my opinion, but that doesn't give any validity to yours. I have mathematics and practical experience on my side. And many rapings from Tau and Eldar on my resume as well. I know how they work in the hands of good players, and BA have no answers.
we can all make arguments based on anectodal evidence eg I have played 20 gmes with blood angels and won 18 etc etc.
You say you have maths on your side but you really diont. If a 185 point unit charges a 265 point land raider and destroys it then The vanguard have got there oints back mathematically. if they charge a seer council or 2 imperial guard tanks etc etc you don't have any maths on your side.
I will ignore your opinion because it is worthless. I have used vanguard and they took out whatever I wanted them to take out
Martel732 wrote: This sounds like a list that could be legitimately tabled in 3 turns. C:BA was codex: trap units in 5th, and has gotten even worse in 6th. And it sounds like this list has fallen into nearly every one.
In your opinion, which to me means diddly squat.
Between 5th and 6th, I've faced nearly every permutation of BA list possible. I've beaten them 85% of the time, because I understand the codex well. VERY well. I was even giving C:SM players the blues a bit until the gravstar come into vogue. You can ignore my opinion, but that doesn't give any validity to yours. I have mathematics and practical experience on my side. And many rapings from Tau and Eldar on my resume as well. I know how they work in the hands of good players, and BA have no answers.
we can all make arguments based on anectodal evidence eg I have played 20 gmes with blood angels and won 18 etc etc.
You say you have maths on your side but you really diont. If a 185 point unit charges a 265 point land raider and destroys it then The vanguard have got there oints back mathematically. if they charge a seer council or 2 imperial guard tanks etc etc you don't have any maths on your side.
I will ignore your opinion because it is worthless. I have used vanguard and they took out whatever I wanted them to take out
Why would someone let that happen? It sounds like you have big fish in little pond syndrome. Sounds like a lot of baby seal clubbing to me.
" I have used vanguard and they took out whatever I wanted them to take out"
Then your opponents are idiots and it's not my opinion that's worthless in that case.
"we can all make arguments based on anectodal evidence eg I have played 20 gmes with blood angels and won 18 etc etc."
It stops being anecdotal with a large data set. BA is the only army I own, and it was very popular in 5th. I have a TON of data backing me.
Martel732 wrote: This sounds like a list that could be legitimately tabled in 3 turns. C:BA was codex: trap units in 5th, and has gotten even worse in 6th. And it sounds like this list has fallen into nearly every one.
In your opinion, which to me means diddly squat.
Between 5th and 6th, I've faced nearly every permutation of BA list possible. I've beaten them 85% of the time, because I understand the codex well. VERY well. I was even giving C:SM players the blues a bit until the gravstar come into vogue. You can ignore my opinion, but that doesn't give any validity to yours. I have mathematics and practical experience on my side. And many rapings from Tau and Eldar on my resume as well. I know how they work in the hands of good players, and BA have no answers.
we can all make arguments based on anectodal evidence eg I have played 20 gmes with blood angels and won 18 etc etc.
You say you have maths on your side but you really diont. If a 185 point unit charges a 265 point land raider and destroys it then The vanguard have got there oints back mathematically. if they charge a seer council or 2 imperial guard tanks etc etc you don't have any maths on your side.
I will ignore your opinion because it is worthless. I have used vanguard and they took out whatever I wanted them to take out
Why would someone let that happen? It sounds like you have big fish in little pond syndrome. Sounds like a lot of baby seal clubbing to me.
" I have used vanguard and they took out whatever I wanted them to take out"
Then your opponents are idiots and it's not my opinion that's worthless in that case.
"we can all make arguments based on anectodal evidence eg I have played 20 gmes with blood angels and won 18 etc etc."
It stops being anecdotal with a large data set. BA is the only army I own, and it was very popular in 5th. I have a TON of data backing me.
you have nothing backing you up hahaha a unit worth 185 points taking out a land raider worth 265 points or other highly cost tanks screws you over. A unit of vanguard worth 165 points taking out a dev squad worth the same amount of points means that they are cost effective. you have nothing hahah
No evidence but 50+ games and better problem solving skills.............
I have a feeling champagne_socialist won't listen to a thing anyone says. Here's a tip, go play in a big tournament, come back home 0-7, and tell us that Vanguard are still good and "kill everything you point it at".
If it actually works (which it won't most of the time), maybe all of us would actually believe you, because at this point you are very uniformed and suffer from big-fish-in-little-pond syndrome.
Lucarikx wrote: No evidence but 50+ games and better problem solving skills.............
I have a feeling champagne_socialist won't listen to a thing anyone says. Here's a tip, go play in a big tournament, come back home 0-7, and tell us that Vanguard are still good and "kill everything you point it at". Maybe if you do that, all of us would actually believe you, because at this point you are very uniformed and suffer from big-fish-in-little-pond syndrome.
Lucarikx
I've whipped the same BA guy like 5 times now and he keeps blaming the dice. I don't know what to do about that. I have a feeling similar thinking is at work now. Or he is just trolling us. Consider us trolled.
Guys, don't bother. I've debated against him in previous threads before. Either he is a troll or supremely ignorant/hard-headed as every time he changes the goal posts or goes into the camp of "LALALA I'M NOT LISTENING!". It's a waste of your time and you've already proven yourselves to be in the right. Let him scurry back to his own small pond with his delusions, it's his fault for not listening to reason.
Martel732 wrote: It's not like I don't WANT them to be good, they just AREN'T.
Sometimes the truth hurts, and sadly some people aren't willing to accept it despite all the evidence. As much as I love the fluff and rambunctious nature of grots I have to accept that by and large they're inferior to boyz even on back-field objective holding, champagne_socialist has to go through the same realization that his opinions aren't fact.
Lucarikx wrote: No evidence but 50+ games and better problem solving skills.............
I have a feeling champagne_socialist won't listen to a thing anyone says. Here's a tip, go play in a big tournament, come back home 0-7, and tell us that Vanguard are still good and "kill everything you point it at". Maybe if you do that, all of us would actually believe you, because at this point you are very uniformed and suffer from big-fish-in-little-pond syndrome.
Lucarikx
I've whipped the same BA guy like 5 times now and he keeps blaming the dice. I don't know what to do about that. I have a feeling similar thinking is at work now. Or he is just trolling us. Consider us trolled.
We are debating vanguard not blood angels, dont get the debate confused. I can play eldar and ally in blood angels scouts and a captain and vanguard.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Like I said you have nothing backing you up othat vnguard are rubbish. 185 points and they can take out an expensive tank or a seer council or a devestator squad or tau crisis suits etc etc
Don't change the debate to talk about blood angels as a whole because that is not the debate.
Vindicators are cheaper.
Tri-las predators are cheaper.
Any Leman Russ par an Executioner, stock, is cheaper.
Fire Prisms are cheaper.
Kitted Wave Serpents are cheaper.
Baal Predators are cheaper.
Annihilation Barges are cheaper.
Ork Boomgunz are cheaper.
Inquisitorial Psymeras and Psybacks are cheaper.
As are GK ones.
So you need to find, essentially, a Knight, Land Raider, or Monolith to make your points back on a single assault. Assuming it's not bubble wrapped, and pray you get a good round against the Knight, and there's no interceptor.
Vindicators are cheaper.
Tri-las predators are cheaper.
Any Leman Russ par an Executioner, stock, is cheaper.
Fire Prisms are cheaper.
Kitted Wave Serpents are cheaper.
Baal Predators are cheaper.
Annihilation Barges are cheaper.
Ork Boomgunz are cheaper.
Inquisitorial Psymeras and Psybacks are cheaper.
As are GK ones.
So you need to find, essentially, a Knight, Land Raider, or Monolith to make your points back on a single assault. Assuming it's not bubble wrapped, and pray you get a good round against the Knight, and there's no interceptor.
difference being that all of the above can be shot at before you get to shoot. vanguard remain untouched.
Vindicators are cheaper.
Tri-las predators are cheaper.
Any Leman Russ par an Executioner, stock, is cheaper.
Fire Prisms are cheaper.
Kitted Wave Serpents are cheaper.
Baal Predators are cheaper.
Annihilation Barges are cheaper.
Ork Boomgunz are cheaper.
Inquisitorial Psymeras and Psybacks are cheaper.
As are GK ones.
So you need to find, essentially, a Knight, Land Raider, or Monolith to make your points back on a single assault. Assuming it's not bubble wrapped, and pray you get a good round against the Knight, and there's no interceptor.
difference being that all of the above can be shot at before you get to shoot. vanguard remain untouched.
It's not worth the points, but evidently you play against pinheads, so it doesn't matter what is in your list. So how is your experience relevant?
Martel732 wrote: "Like I said you have nothing backing you up othat vnguard are rubbish."
Other than them being rubbish against any good player, no nothing at all.
This is doubly moot in that I'm sure BA vanguard will lose this ability this summer or autumn. The new vanguards are much more reasonably priced.
but you cn't prove that they are bad, as ointed out 180 points is cost effective for them taking out a minimum of 1 tank or a devestator squad or a seer council etc etc
Martel732 wrote: "Like I said you have nothing backing you up othat vnguard are rubbish."
Other than them being rubbish against any good player, no nothing at all.
This is doubly moot in that I'm sure BA vanguard will lose this ability this summer or autumn. The new vanguards are much more reasonably priced.
but you cn't prove that they are bad, as ointed out 180 points is cost effective for them taking out a minimum of 1 tank or a devestator squad or a seer council etc etc
You can't beat a seer council with them.
Good players don't use devastators.
So that leaves tanks. The only regular tank in the game that I care that much about is the Wave Serpent. Even still, you are on the losing end of that trade, point wise. I'm in no rush to kill Land Raiders. Maybe Knights. So if you're not playing Eldar or Knights, you likely have no worthy targets.
Martel732 wrote: "Like I said you have nothing backing you up othat vnguard are rubbish."
Other than them being rubbish against any good player, no nothing at all.
This is doubly moot in that I'm sure BA vanguard will lose this ability this summer or autumn. The new vanguards are much more reasonably priced.
but you cn't prove that they are bad, as ointed out 180 points is cost effective for them taking out a minimum of 1 tank or a devestator squad or a seer council etc etc
You can't beat a seer council with them.
Good players don't use devastators.
So that leaves tanks. The only regular tank in the game that I care that much about is the Wave Serpent. Even still, you are on the losing end of that trade, point wise. I'm in no rush to kill Land Raiders. Maybe Knights. So if you're not playing Eldar or Knights, you likely have no worthy targets.
of course I could beat a seer council, swap the meltas so you have 3 power weapons and that is 20 attacks on the charge, 12 with power weapons. if you are seer council hunting add a few extra guys.
can take out crisis suits, riptides, wraithknightsimperial guard command squads, devestator squads etc etc.
At this point, you are just embarrassing yourself. If you had actual play experience against a competent Seer council, you would know this is totally inaccurate.
You can't take any of those things out if your opponent knows what they are doing. Your opponents, as I said, are obviously low quality to let you get away this this stuff.
"you can equip them to handle anything"
But without list tailoring, they are best with meltabombs and nothing else.
At this point, you are just embarrassing yourself. If you had actual play experience against a competent Seer council, you would know this is totally inaccurate.
You can't take any of those things out if your opponent knows what they are doing. Your opponents, as I said, are obviously low quality to let you get away this this stuff.
"you can equip them to handle anything"
But without list tailoring, they are best with meltabombs and nothing else.
At this point, you are just embarrassing yourself. If you had actual play experience against a competent Seer council, you would know this is totally inaccurate.
You can't take any of those things out if your opponent knows what they are doing. Your opponents, as I said, are obviously low quality to let you get away this this stuff.
"you can equip them to handle anything"
But without list tailoring, they are best with meltabombs and nothing else.
lets be honest here you are low quality hahah
Ad hominem. The refuge of lost arguments.
I've had another BA player throw one of my Baals across the room, he was so frustrated against my list. He was using a lot of the same units you have talked about. This was pre-inquisition, of course.
At this point, you are just embarrassing yourself. If you had actual play experience against a competent Seer council, you would know this is totally inaccurate.
You can't take any of those things out if your opponent knows what they are doing. Your opponents, as I said, are obviously low quality to let you get away this this stuff.
"you can equip them to handle anything"
But without list tailoring, they are best with meltabombs and nothing else.
lets be honest here you are low quality hahah
Ad hominem. The refuge of lost arguments.
I've had another BA player throw one of my Baals across the room, he was so frustrated against my list. He was using a lot of the same units you have talked about. This was pre-inquisition, of course.
Not a lost argument at all, any player who says that his units are untouchable is a bad player. Any player who cannot see that a close combat squad who can deep strike and assault the same turn is a good unit is a bad player.
Except for the fact that I have neutered said squad over and over, probably in the hands of players better than you. It's not about squads being untouchable, it's about putting the right ones out of reach.
They do not impact the game often enough or strongly enough to justify their cost.
Martel732 wrote: Except for the fact that I have neutered said squad over and over, probably in the hands of players better than you. It's not about squads being untouchable, it's about putting the right ones out of reach.
They do not impact the game often enough or strongly enough to justify their cost.
anectodal evidence means nothing because I can just say I have won 20 games using vanguard. I dont care about your experiences (they are probably a lie) so i will not listen to you when you say you have faced this army and won or that army and won etc etc.
Right. I've been playing BA since 1994. But I'm making up all my experience with them.
You can say that, but you would be the one that is probably lying. Of all the BA players on Dakka, I am one of the most open about my poor track record because of the state of the list. Most players understand that you can't take overpriced meqs and take on wound spamming Eldar with them with any reasonable chance of success.
Yet, for some reason, you think that taking EVEN MORE overpriced meqs makes you some kind of tactical genius who can not be questioned. That, and you talked about allying in a BA captain. I think its clear who has more credibility on the issue of anything regarding BA.
Martel732 wrote: Right. I've been playing BA since 1994. But I'm making up all my experience with them.
You can say that, but you would be the one that is probably lying. Of all the BA players on Dakka, I am one of the most open about my poor track record because of the state of the list. Most players understand that you can't take overpriced meqs and take on wound spamming Eldar with them with any reasonable chance of success.
Yet, for some reason, you think that taking EVEN MORE overpriced meqs makes you some kind of tactical genius who can not be questioned. That, and you talked about allying in a BA captain. I think its clear who has more credibility on the issue of anything regarding BA.
I don't really care about what you think if im being honest. A vanguard squad is only 55 points more than an assault squad with a power weapon and for that extra 50 points all your men have leadership 9 and they all have an extra attack and they all get to assault after deep striking. Worth the extra 50 points.
You seem to be failing to grasp that vanguard cannot be shot at before they get to destroy their target, who cares how much wave serpeant span you have, they cant touch the vanguard and if i get 1st turn then your wave serpeants get 1 turn of shooting before my vanguard come in and destroy either them or a more juicy target.
Anyway you are rather boring with your constant nonsense
So now you are claiming I don't understand the rules for Vanguards?
And you are skewing the numbers. Vanguard are 65 pts more than an assault squad if I don't waste the points on a power weapon that can be challenged out. AND they don't score.
Your power weapons mean nothing to a Seer Council. They're rolling invul saves. And wounding you on 2's. Probably re-rolling. And probably forcing you to re-roll saves. Possibly reducing your armor save to a 4+ or 5+.
Yes, all listed tanks can be shot at. But you were pointing out that a 180-185 pt tank busting squad is cheap and trades favorably. That list disagrees, as a grand majority of your targets are <180pts, so even if you succeed the Vanguard have not earned their points back, and will promptly die next turn for their trouble.
obsidiankatana wrote: Your power weapons mean nothing to a Seer Council. They're rolling invul saves. And wounding you on 2's. Probably re-rolling. And probably forcing you to re-roll saves. Possibly reducing your armor save to a 4+ or 5+.
Yes, all listed tanks can be shot at. But you were pointing out that a 180-185 pt tank busting squad is cheap and trades favorably. That list disagrees, as a grand majority of your targets are <180pts, so even if you succeed the Vanguard have not earned their points back, and will promptly die next turn for their trouble.
will they die next turn? depends where the tanks are and what other units I have in your aarea by turn 2 which is probably going to be a lot, if i run SM it is drop pods and if i run a henchemn army it is death cult assassins etc etc.
Stop acting as if you can tell the futre by saying what will happen.
But I CHOOSE where my tanks are. So I can make sure that I have units there to mop up your Sternguard after they assault my tank.
You can't put enough bodies on the field as BA to do the kind of threat overload strategy you are trying to convince us of. Especially if you spend your points on Vanguard. I know this doesn't work because I know BA.
Martel732 wrote: But I CHOOSE where my tanks are. So I can make sure that I have units there to mop up your Sternguard after they assault my tank.
You can't put enough bodies on the field as BA to do the kind of threat overload strategy you are trying to convince us of. Especially if you spend your points on Vanguard. I know this doesn't work because I know BA.
you choose where they are means nothing haha, i have two turns to clear a path hahah drop pods are great
Martel732 wrote: But I CHOOSE where my tanks are. So I can make sure that I have units there to mop up your Sternguard after they assault my tank.
You can't put enough bodies on the field as BA to do the kind of threat overload strategy you are trying to convince us of. Especially if you spend your points on Vanguard. I know this doesn't work because I know BA.
you choose where they are means nothing haha, i have two turns to clear a path hahah drop pods are great
You're not clearing a path with so many of your units in reserve. Drop pods are also easy to monkey around with locking out their drop locations. They also can't land on a unit or in terrain.
Martel732 wrote: But I CHOOSE where my tanks are. So I can make sure that I have units there to mop up your Sternguard after they assault my tank.
You can't put enough bodies on the field as BA to do the kind of threat overload strategy you are trying to convince us of. Especially if you spend your points on Vanguard. I know this doesn't work because I know BA.
you choose where they are means nothing haha, i have two turns to clear a path hahah drop pods are great
You're not clearing a path with so many of your units in reserve. Drop pods are also easy to monkey around with locking out their drop locations. They also can't land on a unit or in terrain.
set your whole army up in 1 bunch hahah that will win you the game hahah
You can see him gradually devolving more and more into incoherency as he grows in desperation to try and keep up with the pressure! Look at the gradual increase in childish hahas!
Martel732 wrote: But I CHOOSE where my tanks are. So I can make sure that I have units there to mop up your Sternguard after they assault my tank.
You can't put enough bodies on the field as BA to do the kind of threat overload strategy you are trying to convince us of. Especially if you spend your points on Vanguard. I know this doesn't work because I know BA.
you choose where they are means nothing haha, i have two turns to clear a path hahah drop pods are great
You're not clearing a path with so many of your units in reserve. Drop pods are also easy to monkey around with locking out their drop locations. They also can't land on a unit or in terrain.
set your whole army up in 1 bunch hahah that will win you the game hahah
Actually, if there's not a compelling reason not to do so, I do this frequently. It's not like BA have any trouble claiming objectives on turns 4 and 5. The one thing we still have is speed. In fact, one of our small glimmers of hope is to take on enemy lists piecemeal. 1850 pts of BA can't beat 1850 pts of say, Space Wolves but might be able to beat 1000 pts and then 850 pts.
Martel732 wrote: But I CHOOSE where my tanks are. So I can make sure that I have units there to mop up your Sternguard after they assault my tank.
You can't put enough bodies on the field as BA to do the kind of threat overload strategy you are trying to convince us of. Especially if you spend your points on Vanguard. I know this doesn't work because I know BA.
you choose where they are means nothing haha, i have two turns to clear a path hahah drop pods are great
You're not clearing a path with so many of your units in reserve. Drop pods are also easy to monkey around with locking out their drop locations. They also can't land on a unit or in terrain.
set your whole army up in 1 bunch hahah that will win you the game hahah
Actually, if there's not a compelling reason not to do so, I do this frequently. It's not like BA have any trouble claiming objectives on turns 4 and 5. The one thing we still have is speed. In fact, one of our small glimmers of hope is to take on enemy lists piecemeal. 1850 pts of BA can't beat 1850 pts of say, Space Wolves but might be able to beat 1000 pts and then 850 pts.
yea sure whatever you say lol stay in 1 area and let me get objectives lol
of course not because it has been 4 pages of repeating myself, I explained how vanguard are good and I get some guy trying to tell me he would bunch his whole army up in one corner to counter it lol as if that would sto me I would just assault that squad lol
just for the record I am putting you on my ignore list because im not intereted in your views on the debate
