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"So being able to take out tanks with ease is useless?"

Most tanks can be taken out in a more efficient manner. Vanguards do have some utility against WS in particular, however, against nearly every other list they are a waste of time.

My BA rarely field a tank worth 165 pts, so you are automatically in the hole the price difference between the tank you just murdered and the squad I just slaughtered. I won't let you multi assault two non-rhino tanks.

" you are just in denial that they are not effective. A close combat unit that can assault the turn it deep strikes is amazing."

If they were fairly priced, I would agree. But they are not. They are horribly overcosted.

 Lucarikx wrote:
Stop avoiding the question of making a list. Knights are terribly easy to kill, sadly.

Lucarikx

Why would I make a list to have an imaginary battle with another list over the internet. rather pointless.

I made the thread about vanguard and I was told they will die, they won't kill anything they are over priced. I went to a tournament and played in 3 games and they destroyed whatever I wanted them to destroy when they arrived. Now I am beiong told again that they are useless etc hahaha

Now you have found a tau list that came 2nd in some tounrnament and you want me to create a list to defeat it hahaha whatever next hahaha are you going to pull out an army list that has won a tournament for the last 5 years in a row and ask me to name a list that would beat that hahaha.

 Lucarikx wrote:
Stop avoiding the question of making a list. Knights are terribly easy to kill, sadly.

Lucarikx

He's got nothing for your Tau list, because Tau are 2.5 tiers above BA at least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Lucarikx wrote:
Stop avoiding the question of making a list. Knights are terribly easy to kill, sadly.

Lucarikx

Why would I make a list to have an imaginary battle with another list over the internet. rather pointless.

I made the thread about vanguard and I was told they will die, they won't kill anything they are over priced. I went to a tournament and played in 3 games and they destroyed whatever I wanted them to destroy when they arrived. Now I am beiong told again that they are useless etc hahaha

Now you have found a tau list that came 2nd in some tounrnament and you want me to create a list to defeat it hahaha whatever next hahaha are you going to pull out an army list that has won a tournament for the last 5 years in a row and ask me to name a list that would beat that hahaha.

You also went 1-2. That's lower than my BA win rate. It also sounds like your opponents misplayed against your VV. I've played against VV many, many times because people like you back in 5th thought they were good for the exact reasons you are giving. You are paying too many points for the capability to perhaps kill one thing your opponent may or may not care about.

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Lucarikx wrote:
Stop avoiding the question of making a list. Knights are terribly easy to kill, sadly.

Lucarikx

Why would I make a list to have an imaginary battle with another list over the internet. rather pointless.

I made the thread about vanguard and I was told they will die, they won't kill anything they are over priced. I went to a tournament and played in 3 games and they destroyed whatever I wanted them to destroy when they arrived. Now I am beiong told again that they are useless etc hahaha

Now you have found a tau list that came 2nd in some tounrnament and you want me to create a list to defeat it hahaha whatever next hahaha are you going to pull out an army list that has won a tournament for the last 5 years in a row and ask me to name a list that would beat that hahaha.

Mind if I asked what armies you played against? If you didn't beat Serpent Spam, Triptide, Seer Council, Screamerstar, IG Medusa Spam, Leafblower, White Scars Bike, Iron Hands Bikes, Necron Wraith Spam, or a decent Typhus Zombie + Heldrake list, it isn't competitive enough.

Also, do you even know what Feast of Blades is? 2nd at the FoB Inv is extremely, extremely hard to do. "Some tournament"? Not really.

Lucarikx

Martel732 wrote:

 Lucarikx wrote:
Stop avoiding the question of making a list. Knights are terribly easy to kill, sadly.

Lucarikx

He's got nothing for your Tau list, because Tau are 2.5 tiers above BA at least.

I wouldn't create a list to have an imaginary battle with anyone over the internet, I actually have a life.

champagne_socialist wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Lucarikx wrote:
Stop avoiding the question of making a list. Knights are terribly easy to kill, sadly.

Lucarikx

He's got nothing for your Tau list, because Tau are 2.5 tiers above BA at least.

I wouldn't create a list to have an imaginary battle with anyone over the internet, I actually have a life.

Doesn't change that fact that neither you nor I can make a list that would beat that list more than 30% of the time. I at least admit the severe limitations of C:BA in 6th edition.

Then your argument is invalid, champagne_socialist, as you cannot give evidence that Vanguard are capable of winning games in tournaments.

Lucarikx

Martel732 wrote:

 Lucarikx wrote:
Stop avoiding the question of making a list. Knights are terribly easy to kill, sadly.

Lucarikx

He's got nothing for your Tau list, because Tau are 2.5 tiers above BA at least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Lucarikx wrote:
Stop avoiding the question of making a list. Knights are terribly easy to kill, sadly.

Lucarikx

Why would I make a list to have an imaginary battle with another list over the internet. rather pointless.

I made the thread about vanguard and I was told they will die, they won't kill anything they are over priced. I went to a tournament and played in 3 games and they destroyed whatever I wanted them to destroy when they arrived. Now I am beiong told again that they are useless etc hahaha

Now you have found a tau list that came 2nd in some tounrnament and you want me to create a list to defeat it hahaha whatever next hahaha are you going to pull out an army list that has won a tournament for the last 5 years in a row and ask me to name a list that would beat that hahaha.

You also went 1-2. That's lower than my BA win rate. It also sounds like your opponents misplayed against your VV. I've played against VV many, many times because people like you back in 5th thought they were good for the exact reasons you are giving. You are paying too many points for the capability to perhaps kill one thing your opponent may or may not care about.

Well as i said the tournament was not one that played to my strengths. It was a doubles tournament and my necron partner pulled out so I got paired with some random player on the day of the tournament, everyone else knew their partner weeks in advance so they made their 2 lists together and had games practicing etc etc and lets just say the player I got paired with brought the wrong kind of army to a tournament that allowed apocolypse units

 Lucarikx wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Lucarikx wrote:
Stop avoiding the question of making a list. Knights are terribly easy to kill, sadly.

Lucarikx

Why would I make a list to have an imaginary battle with another list over the internet. rather pointless.

I made the thread about vanguard and I was told they will die, they won't kill anything they are over priced. I went to a tournament and played in 3 games and they destroyed whatever I wanted them to destroy when they arrived. Now I am beiong told again that they are useless etc hahaha

Now you have found a tau list that came 2nd in some tounrnament and you want me to create a list to defeat it hahaha whatever next hahaha are you going to pull out an army list that has won a tournament for the last 5 years in a row and ask me to name a list that would beat that hahaha.

Mind if I asked what armies you played against? If you didn't beat Serpent Spam, Triptide, Seer Council, Screamerstar, IG Medusa Spam, Leafblower, White Scars Bike, Iron Hands Bikes, Necron Wraith Spam, or a decent Typhus Zombie + Heldrake list, it isn't competitive enough.

Also, do you even know what Feast of Blades is? 2nd at the FoB Inv is extremely, extremely hard to do. "Some tournament"? Not really.

Lucarikx

I think you are not going to get through. I know a group of GW enthusiasts at another store that insist there is nothing wrong with BA at all. Even though they can't win a game against anyone at my store. This poster seems a lot like that crowd. Denying the utter overcostedness of VV is not a good sign.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

champagne_socialist wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Lucarikx wrote:
Stop avoiding the question of making a list. Knights are terribly easy to kill, sadly.

Lucarikx

He's got nothing for your Tau list, because Tau are 2.5 tiers above BA at least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Lucarikx wrote:
Stop avoiding the question of making a list. Knights are terribly easy to kill, sadly.

Lucarikx

Why would I make a list to have an imaginary battle with another list over the internet. rather pointless.

I made the thread about vanguard and I was told they will die, they won't kill anything they are over priced. I went to a tournament and played in 3 games and they destroyed whatever I wanted them to destroy when they arrived. Now I am beiong told again that they are useless etc hahaha

Now you have found a tau list that came 2nd in some tounrnament and you want me to create a list to defeat it hahaha whatever next hahaha are you going to pull out an army list that has won a tournament for the last 5 years in a row and ask me to name a list that would beat that hahaha.

You also went 1-2. That's lower than my BA win rate. It also sounds like your opponents misplayed against your VV. I've played against VV many, many times because people like you back in 5th thought they were good for the exact reasons you are giving. You are paying too many points for the capability to perhaps kill one thing your opponent may or may not care about.

Well as i said the tournament was not one that played to my strengths. It was a doubles tournament and my necron partner pulled out so I got paired with some random player on the day of the tournament, everyone else knew their partner weeks in advance so they made their 2 lists together and had games practicing etc etc and lets just say the player I got paired with brought the wrong kind of army to a tournament that allowed apocolypse units

You play BA. You have no strengths in 6th ed.

Then try again in a tournament where you "play to your strengths". The results probably won't change. Also, doubles tournaments aren't good deciders for what units good and whats not.

Lucarikx

 Lucarikx wrote:
Then your argument is invalid, champagne_socialist, as you cannot give evidence that Vanguard are capable of winning games in tournaments.

Lucarikx

Ok from now on I am not going to reply to you. I have gioven my views how vanguard are effective, they take out tanks with ease and long ranged shooting units. I don't wish to keep repeating myself so I am just going to ignore you as it is getting boring.

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Lucarikx wrote:
Then your argument is invalid, champagne_socialist, as you cannot give evidence that Vanguard are capable of winning games in tournaments.

Lucarikx

Ok from now on I am not going to reply to you. I have gioven my views how vanguard are effective, they take out tanks with ease and long ranged shooting units. I don't wish to keep repeating myself so I am just going to ignore you as it is getting boring.

And you have ignored completely the high cost you are paying to do so. No one claims that they can't do these things (sometimes), but they do it once (if you are lucky) and then die. If these guys were appropriately costed, then you would be correct.

Fine with me. This is the forum to discuss tactics, so everyone should be able to put their view in. If you don't want to discuss the tactic and just keep repeating yourself, go right ahead.

Lucarikx

Martel732 wrote:

 Lucarikx wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Lucarikx wrote:
Stop avoiding the question of making a list. Knights are terribly easy to kill, sadly.

Lucarikx

Why would I make a list to have an imaginary battle with another list over the internet. rather pointless.

I made the thread about vanguard and I was told they will die, they won't kill anything they are over priced. I went to a tournament and played in 3 games and they destroyed whatever I wanted them to destroy when they arrived. Now I am beiong told again that they are useless etc hahaha

Now you have found a tau list that came 2nd in some tounrnament and you want me to create a list to defeat it hahaha whatever next hahaha are you going to pull out an army list that has won a tournament for the last 5 years in a row and ask me to name a list that would beat that hahaha.

Mind if I asked what armies you played against? If you didn't beat Serpent Spam, Triptide, Seer Council, Screamerstar, IG Medusa Spam, Leafblower, White Scars Bike, Iron Hands Bikes, Necron Wraith Spam, or a decent Typhus Zombie + Heldrake list, it isn't competitive enough.

Also, do you even know what Feast of Blades is? 2nd at the FoB Inv is extremely, extremely hard to do. "Some tournament"? Not really.

Lucarikx

I think you are not going to get through. I know a group of GW enthusiasts at another store that insist there is nothing wrong with BA at all. Even though they can't win a game against anyone at my store. This poster seems a lot like that crowd. Denying the utter overcostedness of VV is not a good sign.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

champagne_socialist wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Lucarikx wrote:
Stop avoiding the question of making a list. Knights are terribly easy to kill, sadly.

Lucarikx

He's got nothing for your Tau list, because Tau are 2.5 tiers above BA at least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Lucarikx wrote:
Stop avoiding the question of making a list. Knights are terribly easy to kill, sadly.

Lucarikx

Why would I make a list to have an imaginary battle with another list over the internet. rather pointless.

I made the thread about vanguard and I was told they will die, they won't kill anything they are over priced. I went to a tournament and played in 3 games and they destroyed whatever I wanted them to destroy when they arrived. Now I am beiong told again that they are useless etc hahaha

Now you have found a tau list that came 2nd in some tounrnament and you want me to create a list to defeat it hahaha whatever next hahaha are you going to pull out an army list that has won a tournament for the last 5 years in a row and ask me to name a list that would beat that hahaha.

You also went 1-2. That's lower than my BA win rate. It also sounds like your opponents misplayed against your VV. I've played against VV many, many times because people like you back in 5th thought they were good for the exact reasons you are giving. You are paying too many points for the capability to perhaps kill one thing your opponent may or may not care about.

Well as i said the tournament was not one that played to my strengths. It was a doubles tournament and my necron partner pulled out so I got paired with some random player on the day of the tournament, everyone else knew their partner weeks in advance so they made their 2 lists together and had games practicing etc etc and lets just say the player I got paired with brought the wrong kind of army to a tournament that allowed apocolypse units

You play BA. You have no strengths in 6th ed.

You are the one in denial, you tried to paint the picture that they are too expensive but for 185 points they can take out any tank when they deep strike in, that will get them their cost in points back by destroying the tank and then soaking up fiore power so the rest of the army lives.

You also think games are won and lost on paper, evidenced by you asking me to write a list to fight another list hahaha

You also base your whole argument that only the vanguard will be in m oponents deployment zone by turn 2. Debating with you is pointless as you don't understand tactics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Lucarikx wrote:
Then your argument is invalid, champagne_socialist, as you cannot give evidence that Vanguard are capable of winning games in tournaments.

Lucarikx

Ok from now on I am not going to reply to you. I have gioven my views how vanguard are effective, they take out tanks with ease and long ranged shooting units. I don't wish to keep repeating myself so I am just going to ignore you as it is getting boring.

And you have ignored completely the high cost you are paying to do so. No one claims that they can't do these things (sometimes), but they do it once (if you are lucky) and then die. If these guys were appropriately costed, then you would be correct.

185 points to take out 1 or 2 tanks if they are next to each other. That is cost effective.

"You also think games are won and lost on paper, evidenced by you asking me to write a list to fight another list hahaha"

I didn't ask for that. I don't give a feth what you list is. I know what BA can put on the table.

" then soaking up fiore power so the rest of the army lives. "

Surely your opponents can kill more than 5 tac marines in a turn of shooting. VV suck at soaking up fire because they are overcosted.

"185 points to take out 1 or 2 tanks if they are next to each other. That is cost effective."

You are making a huge assumption that you will be 100% successful, and that your opponent has such a target that you can reach.

Too many ifs for my liking. "If they are next to each other", 'if you get the charge", "if you don't mishap", "if I still have a chance vs Tau"..................

Lucarikx

Martel732 wrote:
"You also think games are won and lost on paper, evidenced by you asking me to write a list to fight another list hahaha"

I didn't ask for that. I don't give a feth what you list is. I know what BA can put on the table.

" then soaking up fiore power so the rest of the army lives. "

Surely your opponents can kill more than 5 tac marines in a turn of shooting. VV suck at soaking up fire because they are overcosted.

"185 points to take out 1 or 2 tanks if they are next to each other. That is cost effective."

You are making a huge assumption that you will be 100% successful, and that your opponent has such a target that you can reach.

Blood angles scatter 1d6. I always take an inquisitor with 3 servo skulls and i could take 6 servo skulls with 2 inquisitors for about 65 points. Servo skulls mean that my vanguard do not scatter so I can place them where I want and assault.

It is very unlikely that 3 power fist attacks and 4 melta bombs to the rear armour of a tank wont destroy it but this is a game of chance so anything can happen.

yes my opponent can destroy 5 marines but it is too late when it is his turn, the vanguard have done their job and destroyed that tank or that wraithknight etc etc. I would also add that vanguard are to be used in conjunction with the rest of your army so on my turn 2 my other drop pods deep strike in, my fyers arrive, my other units deep strike in such as sanguinary guard or death comany, units on the table have moved into assault range etc. My vanguard will just be one of many units in my opponents table.

"Blood angles scatter 1d6. I always take an inquisitor with 3 servo skulls and i could take 6 servo skulls with 2 inquisitors for about 65 points."

So you are paying even MORE points for this little trick. And that's what it is. A trick. So you went to all this effort to kill a predator. Good job.

"turn 2 my other drop pods deep strike in, my fyers arrive"

Not all of them. They don't get descent of angels. Your list that you refuse to show anyone sounds horribly piecemealed and easily handled.

"sanguinary guard or death comany"

Really, brah? I thought you were trying to be serious here.

"units on the table have moved into assault range"

You mean the units that have been taking all the fire because everything else was arriving on turn 2?

"My vanguard will just be one of many units in my opponents table"

Not too many, because BA have horrible model count. Especially if you are using sanguinary guard or DC.

I really wanna see the list that all this is going on in. Sternguard,Vanguard, DC,Sanguinary Guard, all we're missing is Tycho!

Lucarikx

 Lucarikx wrote:
I really wanna see the list that all this is going on in. Sternguard,Vanguard, DC,Sanguinary Guard, all we're missing is Tycho!

Lucarikx

No, Tycho is almost useful. We need Seth!

Martel732 wrote:
"Blood angles scatter 1d6. I always take an inquisitor with 3 servo skulls and i could take 6 servo skulls with 2 inquisitors for about 65 points."

So you are paying even MORE points for this little trick. And that's what it is. A trick. So you went to all this effort to kill a predator. Good job.

"turn 2 my other drop pods deep strike in, my fyers arrive"

Not all of them. They don't get descent of angels. Your list that you refuse to show anyone sounds horribly piecemealed and easily handled.

"sanguinary guard or death comany"

Really, brah? I thought you were trying to be serious here.

"units on the table have moved into assault range"

You mean the units that have been taking all the fire because everything else was arriving on turn 2?

"My vanguard will just be one of many units in my opponents table"

Not too many, because BA have horrible model count. Especially if you are using sanguinary guard or DC.

it is not paying more for the trick it is a by-product. I like plasma cannon servitors so the servo skulls means that the plasma cannons only scatter 1d6. It also stops enemy troups scouting or infiltrating within 18 inches of a skull.

Ok.... so there's henchman too now.......

This sounds like a list that could be legitimately tabled in 3 turns. C:BA was codex: trap units in 5th, and has gotten even worse in 6th. And it sounds like this list has fallen into nearly every one.

Martel732 wrote:
This sounds like a list that could be legitimately tabled in 3 turns. C:BA was codex: trap units in 5th, and has gotten even worse in 6th. And it sounds like this list has fallen into nearly every one.

In your opinion, which to me means diddly squat.

champagne_socialist wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
This sounds like a list that could be legitimately tabled in 3 turns. C:BA was codex: trap units in 5th, and has gotten even worse in 6th. And it sounds like this list has fallen into nearly every one.

In your opinion, which to me means diddly squat.

Between 5th and 6th, I've faced nearly every permutation of BA list possible. I've beaten them 85% of the time, because I understand the codex well. VERY well. I was even giving C:SM players the blues a bit until the gravstar come into vogue. You can ignore my opinion, but that doesn't give any validity to yours. I have mathematics and practical experience on my side. And many rapings from Tau and Eldar on my resume as well. I know how they work in the hands of good players, and BA have no answers.

Martel732 wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
This sounds like a list that could be legitimately tabled in 3 turns. C:BA was codex: trap units in 5th, and has gotten even worse in 6th. And it sounds like this list has fallen into nearly every one.

In your opinion, which to me means diddly squat.

Between 5th and 6th, I've faced nearly every permutation of BA list possible. I've beaten them 85% of the time, because I understand the codex well. VERY well. I was even giving C:SM players the blues a bit until the gravstar come into vogue. You can ignore my opinion, but that doesn't give any validity to yours. I have mathematics and practical experience on my side. And many rapings from Tau and Eldar on my resume as well. I know how they work in the hands of good players, and BA have no answers.

we can all make arguments based on anectodal evidence eg I have played 20 gmes with blood angels and won 18 etc etc.

champagne_socialist wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
This sounds like a list that could be legitimately tabled in 3 turns. C:BA was codex: trap units in 5th, and has gotten even worse in 6th. And it sounds like this list has fallen into nearly every one.

In your opinion, which to me means diddly squat.

Then don't ask for opinions in tactics if you don't want help.

Lucarikx

champagne_socialist wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
This sounds like a list that could be legitimately tabled in 3 turns. C:BA was codex: trap units in 5th, and has gotten even worse in 6th. And it sounds like this list has fallen into nearly every one.

In your opinion, which to me means diddly squat.

Between 5th and 6th, I've faced nearly every permutation of BA list possible. I've beaten them 85% of the time, because I understand the codex well. VERY well. I was even giving C:SM players the blues a bit until the gravstar come into vogue. You can ignore my opinion, but that doesn't give any validity to yours. I have mathematics and practical experience on my side. And many rapings from Tau and Eldar on my resume as well. I know how they work in the hands of good players, and BA have no answers.

we can all make arguments based on anectodal evidence eg I have played 20 gmes with blood angels and won 18 etc etc.

You say you have maths on your side but you really diont. If a 185 point unit charges a 265 point land raider and destroys it then The vanguard have got there oints back mathematically. if they charge a seer council or 2 imperial guard tanks etc etc you don't have any maths on your side.

I will ignore your opinion because it is worthless. I have used vanguard and they took out whatever I wanted them to take out

Wait.... you thing the 5 man Vanguard squad can kill a Seer Council?

champagne_socialist wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
This sounds like a list that could be legitimately tabled in 3 turns. C:BA was codex: trap units in 5th, and has gotten even worse in 6th. And it sounds like this list has fallen into nearly every one.

In your opinion, which to me means diddly squat.

Between 5th and 6th, I've faced nearly every permutation of BA list possible. I've beaten them 85% of the time, because I understand the codex well. VERY well. I was even giving C:SM players the blues a bit until the gravstar come into vogue. You can ignore my opinion, but that doesn't give any validity to yours. I have mathematics and practical experience on my side. And many rapings from Tau and Eldar on my resume as well. I know how they work in the hands of good players, and BA have no answers.

we can all make arguments based on anectodal evidence eg I have played 20 gmes with blood angels and won 18 etc etc.

You say you have maths on your side but you really diont. If a 185 point unit charges a 265 point land raider and destroys it then The vanguard have got there oints back mathematically. if they charge a seer council or 2 imperial guard tanks etc etc you don't have any maths on your side.

I will ignore your opinion because it is worthless. I have used vanguard and they took out whatever I wanted them to take out

Why would someone let that happen? It sounds like you have big fish in little pond syndrome. Sounds like a lot of baby seal clubbing to me.

" I have used vanguard and they took out whatever I wanted them to take out"

Then your opponents are idiots and it's not my opinion that's worthless in that case.

"we can all make arguments based on anectodal evidence eg I have played 20 gmes with blood angels and won 18 etc etc."

It stops being anecdotal with a large data set. BA is the only army I own, and it was very popular in 5th. I have a TON of data backing me.