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Are they worth taking?

They can deep strike and assault the same turn, is that so important or overrated?

They only scatter 1d6 for deep striking so the probability is that they get into combat. How would you use them? what would you kit them with and what units would you go after, tanks, dev squds, riptides etc

How can they be improved using allies? Getting an inquisitor with servo skulls so they don't scatter is very powerful.

I have a tournament coming up and I have decided on taking 8 vanguard with jump packs and 2 power fists, 1 power sword and 4 melta bombs. Comes to about 300 points but it fits in perfectly with my army.

No. They are too overcosted for lame guys in power armor. I wish you good luck in your tourney, but 300 pts for 8 guys in power armor is doing your opponents a favor, imo. You are paying 300 pts for an if-come-maybe assault. Even if everything works perfectly, very few targets are worth an assault from a 300 pt unit. And there are targets like Space wolves that will straight up win.

Martel732 wrote:
No. They are too overcosted for lame guys in power armor. I wish you good luck in your tourney, but 300 pts for 8 guys in power armor is doing your opponents a favor, imo. You are paying 300 pts for an if-come-maybe assault. Even if everything works perfectly, very few targets are worth an assault from a 300 pt unit. And there are targets like Space wolves that will straight up win.

They re pretty nasty in combat as they each get 4 attacks each on the charge.

5 guys with jump packs and a power sword is 165 pts, is this the answer to defeating a tau/IG gun line? taking 3 squads of these as your fast attack options and deep striking and assaulting the same turn would tie up/kill those annoying gunline troops.

165pts of vanguard could tie uo tau crisis suits for eg

my tournament next month is a 1000 pts where titans/ super heavy tanks etc can be used. My idea is that the vanguard will be able to deep strike in and with 6 power fist attacks 4 melta bomb attacks and 2 krak grenande attacks be able to take out a super heavy tank on the turn they deep strike in. That is what I am hoping for anyway.

33 pts/model for power armor troops is very, very expensive. Don't forget the Tau will get interceptor fire AND overwatch before you assault. And good Tau will have the stuff they care about bubblewrapped as soon they see the 3 squads of vanguard.

Martel732 wrote:
33 pts/model for power armor troops is very, very expensive. Don't forget the Tau will get interceptor fire AND overwatch before you assault. And good Tau will have the stuff they care about bubblewrapped as soon they see the 3 squads of vanguard.

Well vanguard come in on turn 2 so in your turn 1 you shoud hopefully have removed the bubble wrap with all of your shooting. If I was running 3 squads of vanguard I would also run 3 squads of sternguard in drop pods so 2 drop pods deep strike in on turn 1 and wipe out major threats with melta guns.

in my opinion gunlines are all about shooting at opponents whilst they footslog across the board. Vanguard stop this because they deep strike in with great accuracy and get to assault.

" with all of your shooting"

This is BA we are talking about, right? What shooting? LOL It's gonna take more than one turn to get rid of a bubblewrap with BA. Marine firepower sucks in general, and ours is worse than that.

champagne_socialist wrote:

in my opinion gunlines are all about shooting at opponents whilst they footslog across the board. Vanguard stop this because they deep strike in with great accuracy and get to assault.

Your opinion is correct in terms of Guardsmen. Not Tau, not Eldar. Which are your biggest contenders. And Guardsmen who ally in Coteaz (see: most if not all competitive (lol) gunline Guard). At least, from the old 'dex.

A unit of five Vanguard veterans would be lucky to survive their combat against anything but a 10 man throw-away unit by sheer number of attacks they'll get hit back with, and overwatch, and interceptor. Fifteen will fair no better, unless they're all charging the same target. Which is massive overkill.

Martel732 wrote:
" with all of your shooting"

This is BA we are talking about, right? What shooting? LOL It's gonna take more than one turn to get rid of a bubblewrap with BA. Marine firepower sucks in general, and ours is worse than that.

if I am being honest, I would be happy if my opponent bubble wrapped his army because it means that his whole army is in the same place so it is easier to get into combat. when people spread their army out I hate it because it means once I have wioed out 1 squad I have to go all the way to the other side of the board to get to another juicy unit, if they bunch everything together for interceptor/bubble wrap it means everything is close for me to assault.

Worst comes to worse I assault a bubble wra squad, hopefully I kill them in his turn meaning in my turn 3 I can fly 12 inches with my jump packs and assault what I want.

Vindicator tanks are bubble wraps worst nightmares, all those units in close proximity= a big easy target for the vindicator. BA vindicators are fast so it is basically a 36 inch range str 10 ap2 large blast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

in my opinion gunlines are all about shooting at opponents whilst they footslog across the board. Vanguard stop this because they deep strike in with great accuracy and get to assault.

Your opinion is correct in terms of Guardsmen. Not Tau, not Eldar. Which are your biggest contenders. And Guardsmen who ally in Coteaz (see: most if not all competitive (lol) gunline Guard). At least, from the old 'dex.

A unit of five Vanguard veterans would be lucky to survive their combat against anything but a 10 man throw-away unit by sheer number of attacks they'll get hit back with, and overwatch, and interceptor. Fifteen will fair no better, unless they're all charging the same target. Which is massive overkill.

??? I am confused, are yous aying a blob of 15 guard would kill 5 charging vanguards? the vanguards would get 20 attacks on the charge at a higher initiative including 4 power sword attacks.

Also why would I charge a blob of 50 guardsman for eg with vanguard? that would be a waste. I would go after tanks or something juicy.

I'd wager 15 could knock down 5 Vanguard vets, yes. I'd also wager you're not getting to charge a tank, because with an eye on what you're bringing the Guard player will have 50 Guardsmen surrounding the tank. A world away from your vindicators, and with Vanquisher Cannons and Lascannons pointed straight at it.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Guardsmen don't come in blobs of 15. I'd wager 20 could knock down 5 Vanguard vets, yes. I'd also wager you're not getting to charge a tank, because with an eye on what you're bringing the Guard player will have 50 Guardsmen surrounding the tank. A world away from your vindicators, and with Vanquisher Cannons and Lascannons pointed straight at it.

we can do the maths, 5 vanguards charge 20 IG. 20 overwatch shots = 3 hits. str 3 against toghness 4 needs 5's to wound so = 1 wound, 3+ save means 2/3 it will be saved. odds are against receing a casaulty against overwatch. 0.33 chance that I lose a marine. so less that 0.5%

in combat 5 vanguard attack first. 16 attacks with close combats, 4 attacks with power weapons. close combat weapons = wss 4 against IG ws 3 so 3's to hit= 11 hits. str 4 against toughness 3 = 3's to wound= 7 wounds. 5+ save = 4.62 die

power sword attacks= 2.64 hits- 1.74 wounds and no save
total IG dead = 6.32

IG hit back
14 Ig left- 14 hits at ws 3 against ws 4 = 7 hits. str 3 against toughness 4 = 2.31 wounds. 3+ save = 1.4 die

IG lose by a 5/6 so they need double ones or they fail morale and run. I am higher initiatiev so i am favourite to run them down and kill them.


If there was a blob of 50 guardsmen I would wipe my hands with glee, if I did decide to assault 15 vanguard into them then I would be a massive favourite to win the combat and that is a massive blob of guard that I would wipe out.

40 overwatch shots. Lasguns have rapid fire. Double all of your numbers. You lose a marine on the charge.

You just lost 4 CC attacks, and I hope not the power sword. Assume the CC attacks, three guardsmen die. The sword kills 1-2 more. You've slain 4-5 Guardsmen, leaving 15-16 to hit you back. 8 hits, and you lose a marine.

Two marines dead, 4-5 Guardsmen dead. If you sweep them, it's unfavorable, as you did it in your turn and you lose the squad next turn. If you don't sweep them, either something else piles in to keep you down or the army backs up to deny another charge, or gives you another charge so you can lose more men to Overwatch.

"Vindicator tanks are bubble wraps worst nightmares"

Not really. Vindicators are quite poor, really.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
40 overwatch shots. Lasguns have rapid fire. Double all of your numbers. You lose a marine on the charge.

You just lost 4 CC attacks, and I hope not the power sword. Assume the CC attacks, three guardsmen die. The sword kills 1-2 more. You've slain 4-5 Guardsmen, leaving 15-16 to hit you back. 8 hits, and you lose a marine.

Two marines dead, 4-5 Guardsmen dead. If you sweep them, it's unfavorable, as you did it in your turn and you lose the squad next turn. If you don't sweep them, either something else piles in to keep you down or the army backs up to deny another charge, or gives you another charge so you can lose more men to Overwatch.

well rapid fire gets complicated because would all 20 guys be in range to rapid fire? if we have 50 IG would 50 IG be in rapid fire range?

But lets say all 20 get into get to rapid fire, the IG still lose combat and they have leadership 7. if they lose by 4 they will need to roll a 3 or under, they will run. If they don't run I don't mind you charging another IG blob into the combat, if you wish to throw your whole army at 5 VV thats your tactics. I still have another 2 squads of vanguard running around for you to deal with.

" I still have another 2 squads of vanguard running around for you to deal with."

The problem is that without consolidating into new CCs, this is not a huge problem.

Martel732 wrote:
" I still have another 2 squads of vanguard running around for you to deal with."

The problem is that without consolidating into new CCs, this is not a huge problem.

I am going to a tournament now, I will post my results later on tinight and I will be 100% honest about results etc.

ok as promised here is my honest feedback.

The vanguard vets did well in my 3 tournament games. It is hard to truely judge how they performed as the tournament was an apocolypse allowed tournament so you can imagine the amount of cheese that was being brought.

In my first game I was up against Eldar. The vanguard took out 2 fire prisms who were on the flank firing at my army.

in the second game I was up against 2 imperial knights. The vanguard deepstruck and assaulted an imperial knight. I took out the knight in close combat but then all my vanguard died due to a D- explosion.

3rd game was very hit and miss for the vanguard. Deep striked in and attempted to multi assault a stalker tank and a 10 man unit of scouts. Failed the charge distance for the tan but got into combat with the scouts. Decided that my 2 power fist vets would attack using their bolt pistols instead as I wanted to keep the scouts alive because I wanted to kill them in my opponents turn so that they were locked in combat so he couldnt shoot my vanguard in his turn. I killed 8 scouts in my combat and then in his turn killed the rest so my vanguard then assaulted the tank in my turn 3 wiping it out. My vanguard then got destroyed by a D-weapon.

I had 8 vanguard wwith 2 power fists and 4 melt bombs and jump packs.

I used 6 servo skulls to that if my vanguard deep striked within 12 inches of a servo skull they wouldnt scatter.

hard to judge the vanguard when in an apocolypse game.they did well and caught the opponent off guard, deep striking in without scattering and then assaulting is very dangerous.

Did you win any of the games? Just curious? Because my biggest problem with them is how they hurt model count of a list.

i thionk the best loadout would be 4 vanguard with 2 power fists and 2 melta bombs, maybe a power sword if you have points.

champagne_socialist wrote:
i thionk the best loadout would be 4 vanguard with 2 power fists and 2 melta bombs, maybe a power sword if you have points.

What about just 2 melta bombs and leave power fists and swords at home? Or maybe 5 bombs and no fists or swords? Power weapons are very overcosted.

Martel732 wrote:
Did you win any of the games? Just curious? Because my biggest problem with them is how they hurt model count of a list.

won the 1st game lost the other 2. 2nd game was up against 2 imperial knights, killed one with vanguard but the d explosion wiped my vv out.

3rd game i lost, was up against a 700 point eldar titan!!!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:
i thionk the best loadout would be 4 vanguard with 2 power fists and 2 melta bombs, maybe a power sword if you have points.

What about just 2 melta bombs and leave power fists and swords at home? Or maybe 5 bombs and no fists or swords? Power weapons are very overcosted.

but that makes you just a tank killer really , power fists lets you crush troops and tanks. only 10 pts for a power fist upgrade. a power weapon comes free with the squad

champagne_socialist wrote:
i thionk the best loadout would be 4 vanguard with 2 power fists and 2 melta bombs, maybe a power sword if you have points.

Do you mean 5? Because minimum is 5.

I'd agree with Martel at keeping the toys cheap. 30pts a man is costly enough with the jump packs. 35 points lets them fight MCs and Tanks (though they should likely not fight the former). 165 point tank-busting squad with meltabombs is... pricy, but I can see the use. They offer enough of a threat that ten bodies of wrap won't deter them, though it may still keep them from their objective.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:
i thionk the best loadout would be 4 vanguard with 2 power fists and 2 melta bombs, maybe a power sword if you have points.

Do you mean 5? Because minimum is 5.

I'd agree with Martel at keeping the toys cheap. 30pts a man is costly enough with the jump packs. 35 points lets them fight MCs and Tanks (though they should likely not fight the former). 165 point tank-busting squad with meltabombs is... pricy, but I can see the use. They offer enough of a threat that ten bodies of wrap won't deter them, though it may still keep them from their objective.

i would always upgrade the power weapon to a power fist for 10pts

They still have the charge when they deep strike, and the D6 means you can usually get a charge. They can work, as a small squad, as a scalpel to take out a key target.

I'd use a squad of 5. That's it. Don't charge in a middle of a gunline with them. Especially tau gunline. You'll be dead before charging.

However, those guyz are enormously useful vs tanks. So i'd take a powerfist and/or a couple of meltabombz and call it a day. Don't forget, you'll be probably playing vs eldar. Eldar = wave serpents. And it's super hard to down them at range. Another option is just a powerfist. Don't invest too much in them and don't throw them at what they won't kill - and they'll be fine. Currently, they're a very strong tactical option. If you loose 190 pts but take out something like a wave serpent - they've allready payed off.

" If you loose 190 pts but take out something like a wave serpent - they've allready payed off."

Not exactly, but I get your point.

You're not instantly disaperaing after killing something. Besides, I'd gladly give even 200 pts in exchange for a destroyed wave serpent in an army that won't be able to kill it at range. And let's be realistic - without cover-ignore and rate of fire you're not likely to kill even a single wave serpent in lower than 3 turns duration.

"You're not instantly disaperaing after killing something. "

Yeah, that's realistically what probably happens against a good list/player. Not being able to consolidate into a new CC really kills these guys. They're priced as if that were still a thing.

" Besides, I'd gladly give even 200 pts in exchange for a destroyed wave serpent in an army that won't be able to kill it at range."

The Eldar are still winning on that exchange. Mostly because the rest of your army doesn't stack up to Eldar at all.

Well, you're also throwing the opp. off his game at least a little bit. Even the best players don't like a wrench in their works.

Also, turn 2 assault may allow you to synergize your charge with some other units: bikes, things that dropped podded, etc.

 PipeAlley wrote:
Well, you're also throwing the opp. off his game at least a little bit. Even the best players don't like a wrench in their works.

Also, turn 2 assault may allow you to synergize your charge with some other units: bikes, things that dropped podded, etc.

Good players don't care. They expect it as soon as they see the vanguard in the list. They just turn the disruption into an advantage, as you have gimped your list somewhere else to pay for said Vanguard. They just don't bring enough utility/staying power for their cost. Just like practically everything in C:BA.

The "synergy" you speak of is staggered by a turn, which can prove quite fatal. The drop pod units will arrive, be unable to assault and then get shot up before the vanguards arrive.

Martel732 wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:
Well, you're also throwing the opp. off his game at least a little bit. Even the best players don't like a wrench in their works.

Also, turn 2 assault may allow you to synergize your charge with some other units: bikes, things that dropped podded, etc.

Good players don't care. They expect it as soon as they see the vanguard in the list. They just turn the disruption into an advantage, as you have gimped your list somewhere else to pay for said Vanguard. They just don't bring enough utility/staying power for their cost. Just like practically everything in C:BA.

The "synergy" you speak of is staggered by a turn, which can prove quite fatal. The drop pod units will arrive, be unable to assault and then get shot up before the vanguards arrive.

I disagree, I have used vanguard in many 'friendly' games and also in a tournament and no one could handle them. They drop in and destroy whatever you had planned. They then soak up a massive amount of fire allowing the rest of your army to move up into combat.

If the vanguard are in your list, whatever role you have equipped them for, they will complete it.