If all the loyal Space Marine Chapters cut ties with the IOM and all became either neutral or even hostile could the IOM hold together?

If not, how long would it take to fall apart and how long would it take for the High Lords of Terra to lose control of Terra itself?

It wouldn't completely fall apart. I would turn into like the Craft world Eldar. Doomed to live a slow death. or quick, Chaos and Nids would be night unstoppable.

Yeah, it would hold. In some parts of galaxy definetly not easily, some part of IoM would be lost, but in the end, Astartes are not only and main line of defence.

 UlrikDecado wrote:
Yeah, it would hold. In some parts of galaxy definetly not easily, some part of IoM would be lost, but in the end, Astartes are not only and main line of defence.

What parts do you think they would lose control of?

The Ultramar sector would become a Mini IOM.

The Imperium would likely fall apart faster than its already high corrosion rate. The Ultramarines and their descendants would take Ultramar with them, the Grey Knights are the main force staving off uber-daemonic incursions, the Dark Angels would likely form into a full legion again after dropping the codex, etc. The Imperium would hold together for another couple thousand years (barring some uber threat rolling around and just bulldozing the IOM, like a full Necron attack with something like another World Engine, another Tyranid Hive fleet, or Daemons and more Daemons), but they'd certainly lose multiple sectors of space, likely all of the galactic east. They'd also lose fringe territories on the edge of the galaxy, as they're maintained by some chapters keeping the peace there.

Nobody will rebel and attack Terra (it's damn near impossible if you're not Necrons), but something like Old Night may return and swallow up humanity.

The Imperium would likely have to go on the defensive, and would lose control of some worlds/sectors, and their rapid reaction capability would be severely reduced, but they'd be far from defenseless. They'd still have the Guard and the Sisters, as well as the Inquisition and the Assassins for the really desperate threats. They'd also still have the Imperial Navy.

Also, unless the Astartes turned to Chaos in their entirety, the newly neutral marine chapters would still bear the brunt of a lot of Chaos aggression. The traitor legions have long memories and they're not going to ignore their most hated foes just because they're no longer part of the IoM.

Without the Space Marines, the Imperium would be even more doomed than it already is. The Marines has been stated consistently as being something the Imperium would not have survived this far without.

Yea, it's generally acknowledged that the Imperium is already dying NOW (which is why this era is referred to as "The Time of Ending". Castellan Crowe feels his immortality is a curse because it let him see first hand the Imperium's slow decline over the course of several generations)

No Space Marines would just speed up a process that's already taking place.

Castellan Crowe is not immortal.

Justicar Anval Thawn is.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Castellan Crowe is not immortal.

Justicar Anval Thawn is.

'

Sorry, yea, that's right. I got the names mixed up.

Yeah, its just going to have to recruit more.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Yea, it's generally acknowledged that the Imperium is already dying NOW (which is why this era is referred to as "The Time of Ending". Castellan Crowe feels his immortality is a curse because it let him see first hand the Imperium's slow decline over the course of several generations)

No Space Marines would just speed up a process that's already taking place.

But how long would it take without Space Marines? A year? A decade? A century? A millennium?

Zookie wrote:

 UlrikDecado wrote:
Yeah, it would hold. In some parts of galaxy definetly not easily, some part of IoM would be lost, but in the end, Astartes are not only and main line of defence.

What parts do you think they would lose control of?

Well, they've already lost massive portions of the Segmentum Pacificus to rebellions, not all of which are chaos influenced.

Almost everything marines do can be done by other forces, but the IoM would have to severely increase recruitment of elites like the Stormtroopers and Adepta Sororitas. Also naval units would have to be used for patrolling fringes previously watched over by this and that Chapter.

The blow to morale would do far more damage than the loss of the fraction of Imperial military power the marines represent.

It would. See the not-yet-release Astra Militarum codex for reference :

Last three lines : it says because of the Imperial Guard, not because of the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
It would. See the not-yet-release Astra Militarum codex for reference :

Last three lines : it says because of the Imperial Guard, not because of the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines .

And then Terra is promptly bulldozed by a Necron fleet. The imperial guard are good, but they're worthless against such threats as full powered Necron attacks or Daemonic infestations or infections like doubtworm.

 Wyzilla wrote:
And then Terra is promptly bulldozed by a Necron fleet.

The Imperial Guard would be helpless against a Necron fleet. And, guess what ? A Space Marine chapter would be only slightly helpless. Necron fleet advancing toward Terra ? Bring in the fleet ! Of course it is the Imperial Fleet that deals with those threats.

 Wyzilla wrote:
The imperial guard are good, but they're worthless against such threats as full powered Necron attacks or Daemonic infestations or infections like doubtworm.

Imperial Guards are more likely to hold against some Necron attack because of their numbers. I am pretty sure Catachans can deal with a daemonic infestation, they are used to deal with devils ( ). Doubtworm infestation ? Send in the Death Korps. You are clearly underestimating the Guard.

Assuming there aren't any space marines, would that mean there aren't any chaos either or at least chaos's attention would be split, which could go one of two ways they lose sight of terra and humanity and go to bring down the last of their bretheren knowing if they did the final conquest would likely be easier. Alternatively if they crusaded on the IOM or what is left with it and the space marines idly sat by it probably could spell then end of them. I don't think IOM would survive if there are marines on the enemies side but not on there own.

It's obvious that they would be forced to lose ground because without the rapid response of marines coming in to deal with threats in areas where imperium forces are too spread out to cope they would have to consolidate into a much more concentrated force in order to deal with the same things that space marines usually do.

In place of space marines however all their weaponry and even armor and cost would likely be found being spent on imperial guard, giving them things that usually their brief lives would not be worth possessing. All the weaponry would remain, all the technology bar space marines them self would remain, the adeptus mechanicus aren't entirely space marines so they would still be their pumping out vehicles. There is no reason a land raider could not be piloted by imperial guardsmen. Titans themselves ARE piloted by imperial guard.

I think with the removal of space marines the IOM would suffer but I think it would fall back to a more defendable location allowing it to equal the deficit the lack of space marines creates.

The only problem really would be the increased likelyhood of uprising, mutiny and turn to chaos as they wouldn't have grey nights or super loyal marines to keep them inline or watch over them and when you take away space marines from the inquisition there isn't overly much to fear beyond exterminatus and if they did that they would be forced to lose even more ground.

As someone said If the marines were suddenly gone I would see a time like old night returning for the imperium. The guard are the shield but they are a blunt instrument of war. Astartes have always provided the foil against the alien menace. I think if the imperium lost the Astartes we would all be drones of the greater good

 Imperious wrote:
Astartes have always provided the foil against the alien menace.

The Astartes always do the backseat drivers against alien menace, but because of their numbers, they do not do much more than galactic-partridging the guard .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
It would. See the not-yet-release Astra Militarum codex for reference :

Last three lines : it says because of the Imperial Guard, not because of the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines .

That says nothing about SM. It says that the IoM would fall apart without the IG, which is true. But the Imperium would also fall apart without the SM, or the Inquisition, or the Ecclessiarchy, or the Mechanicus, or the Navigators. The Imperium needs everything in order to survive.

If all the SM were to suddenly turn hostile, it would be the Horus Heresy all over again. The IoM would not survive that.
If they were suddenly to turn neutral and cut ties with the IoM, the IoM could still survive. It still has the IG, and the SM would likely continue to protect humanity even without accepting the Imperium's authority. Both the IoM and SM would be severely weakened though.
If the SM were to suddenly disappear, the IoM would suddenly lose a lot of territory, as a lot of it, especially in the galactic east and along the borders is protected by the SM. The IoM would likely be able to survive; at least until the Tyranids show up or Chaos unifies and launches an all-out crusade.

The Imperium would not survive without the Space Marines. Then again, it won't survive with the Space Marines. In the overall scheme of the IoM, the Space Marines mean very little. Their contributions, while strategically important in a few occassions, are a terrible waste of resources and false faith.

If nothing else changed, and the IoM still had access to the production capabilities and recruitment ability of the Marines, I'd imagine a net loss and gain of nothing. They'd simply use those assets to build more of other types of combat units that would be just as effective.

Minus there elite combat arm, they would not last as long. Baselines humans cannot fight with same sheer aggression and durability

jhe90 wrote:
Minus there elite combat arm, they would not last as long. Baselines humans cannot fight with same sheer aggression and durability

But they do have the bloody mindedness and massive numbers to make up for it.

Easily.

The bedrock of the Imperium's defence is not a million space marines.

It's over a quadrillion guardsmen and navymen with trillions of vehicles and billions of ships and boats.

Everyone else is just support.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
It would. See the not-yet-release Astra Militarum codex for reference :

Last three lines : it says because of the Imperial Guard, not because of the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines .

That says nothing about SM. It says that the IoM would fall apart without the IG, which is true. But the Imperium would also fall apart without the SM, or the Inquisition, or the Ecclessiarchy, or the Mechanicus, or the Navigators. The Imperium needs everything in order to survive.

If all the SM were to suddenly turn hostile, it would be the Horus Heresy all over again. The IoM would not survive that.
If they were suddenly to turn neutral and cut ties with the IoM, the IoM could still survive. It still has the IG, and the SM would likely continue to protect humanity even without accepting the Imperium's authority. Both the IoM and SM would be severely weakened though.
If the SM were to suddenly disappear, the IoM would suddenly lose a lot of territory, as a lot of it, especially in the galactic east and along the borders is protected by the SM. The IoM would likely be able to survive; at least until the Tyranids show up or Chaos unifies and launches an all-out crusade.

Even with the highest end interpretations of Space marines supported by fluff; a mere million space marines would get crushed by a foe that outnumbers them quite literally more than a billion to one.

ClockworkZion even did some rather conservative estimates of the Sisters of Battle that placed them alone as numbering over ten billion.

The Adeptus Mechanicus could throw trillions of Skitarii and countless millions of Titans into the fray and simply cut off the Space marines from their logistical support and tell any techmarines that if they support the Astartes in their rebellion they're exocommunicated from the Machine Cult. Many will stay, but many others will heed the Fabricator General's orders.

The Space marines; as presented; loyal or chaotic, make up infintisemally puny segments of their faction's actual military power.

If the lost and the damned and dark mechanicus decided to kill all the chaos space marines and the daemons didn't play favorites; the Marines won't be the ones winning.

But the loyalists? The number of marines is about similar, but there's far more of everything else.

The Marines not only can't win, they can't really do much more than get steamrolled and die.

On a macro-scale, the Space marines are even less meaningful to the overall military power of the factions they serve than real world special forces.

They don't have the numbers nor the industry to matter.

They however fill some pretty key roles, could you imagine humans fighting as grey knights?

No deathwatch, grey knights, so that's 2 elite units gone. Small units but furfil very key roles vs size.

Yes a no great instant doom minus the sm chapters. However that a huge loss of rapid reaction troops and storm troopers can furfil but not with same ability per person.

More accurately it would be huge loss in tactical capability, is minus terminaitors to take on hulks, marines for rapid assaults, the huge loss in tactical, strategic skills, is can you replace a great wolf and campaign chomandor with 700+ years experience, or Dante at over 1000 years to draw back on?

jhe90 wrote:
They however fill some pretty key roles, could you imagine humans fighting as grey knights?

No deathwatch, grey knights, so that's 2 elite units gone. Small units but furfil very key roles vs size.

Yes a no great instant doom minus the sm chapters. However that a huge loss of rapid reaction troops and storm troopers can furfil but not with same ability per person.

More accurately it would be huge loss in tactical capability, is minus terminaitors to take on hulks, marines for rapid assaults, the huge loss in tactical, strategic skills, is can you replace a great wolf and campaign chomandor with 700+ years experience, or Dante at over 1000 years to draw back on?

I'm not sure if you quite comprehend how massive the gap in numbers is.

At the numbers gap involved; you could just have the DKoK flood space hulks with combat engineers, combat servitors, and bullgryns until everything is dead.

I do get, there are billions of guardsmen to one marine.

However, can you compare a admiral in navy Or IG general to a space marine chapter master with hundreds of years of experience to mere human lifespan, rare ones high hundreds of years, thousands of battles vs every enemy known to impirium.

Such officers are rare yes, but can turn a campaign.

jhe90 wrote:
I do get, there are billions of guardsmen to one marine.

However, can you compare a admiral in navy Or IG general to a space marine chapter master with hundreds of years of experience to mere human lifespan, rare ones high hundreds of years, thousands of battles vs every enemy known to impirium.

Such officers are rare yes, but can turn a campaign.

"Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics."

Tactics and planning ultimately are supplementary to advantages in economics.

And after a hundreds of years fighting, thousands of battles, hundreds of campaigns and warfare in almost every role in marine structure, you would not understand logistics and grand strategy. Not likely, fleet based chapters will know that deeper than anyone like the high marshal of black templers.

They coordinate supplies, crusades, fleets, and 5 times as many as most chapters to boot.

jhe90 wrote:
And after a hundreds of years fighting, thousands of battles, hundreds of campaigns and warfare in almost every role in marine structure, you would not understand logistics and grand strategy. Not likely, fleet based chapters will know that deeper than anyone like the high marshal of black templers.

They coordinate supplies, crusades, fleets, and 5 times as many as most chapters to boot.

What would a Spacemarine Captain, who has lead at most a company of men into battle, understand of the requirements of leading an entire division, a corps or even an army? Spacemarines are good at what they do but appart from a few special cases i would rather take a human admiral/general, who both can reach several centuries of age in the setting, than a gene enhanced manchild who knows nothing about normal humans and generaly leads forces which are usualy assigned to junior/ field officers.

True a captain only has 100 to worry about, a chapter master at most 5000, highly independent.

However, they oversee own production, recruitment, they oversee all logistics on home planets. Such will surely teach you the demands of a Arny at war, campaigns will show the nescitey of good supplies and supoirt.

They may not supply corps, divushions, however will not be blind to the fact waging war on such scales requires huge rescources. + theres a entire adaptus devoted to that issue of supply, arming great armies and drawing regiments needed. With departments for seige, and other aspects if war.

True a juiner officer would lead, but which captain you want, veteran of hundreds of battles or a youngish officer yet to have seen maybe a campaign?

GK has something IG doesn't.

Force concentration.

It doesn't matter if you would have sent untold tides of Bullgryns at Daemon Angron, he would just have nommed them all, ten by ten. He is a Daemon. He never tires.

If you had PA Ogryns with psychic powers, sure. And that were incorruptible as well.

But you don't.

The same goes for Marines, in another way.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
GK has something IG doesn't.

Force concentration.

It doesn't matter if you would have sent untold tides of Bullgryns at Daemon Angron, he would just have nommed them all, ten by ten. He is a Daemon. He never tires.

If you had PA Ogryns with psychic powers, sure. And that were incorruptible as well.

But you don't.

The same goes for Marines, in another way.

That too. People often quote that a Space Marine is worth 12 Guardsmen but 12 Guardsmen cannot do everything Space Marines can. Certain operations need heavily armored, armed and elite infantry to go in and wreck gak.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
GK has something IG doesn't.

Force concentration.

It doesn't matter if you would have sent untold tides of Bullgryns at Daemon Angron, he would just have nommed them all, ten by ten. He is a Daemon. He never tires.

If you had PA Ogryns with psychic powers, sure. And that were incorruptible as well.

But you don't.

The same goes for Marines, in another way.

Nuke him from orbit.

In the fluff, isn't it said that most guardsmen have never seen a marine, or even doubt their existence? There is also the numbers involved, only a hundred billion or so to one. I mean, it's cheaper to grow a human to maturity then it is to produce a lasgun. There is also the massive diversity of the guard. Name a job? They have a billion men to do it.

In regards to the logistics, I was under the impression that chapter serfs were in charge of that? Can't really see a marine steering a battle barge, his fingers are too big for the buttons. Not to mention the exponential increase in difficulty as you increase the number of people you have to supply. It's not twice as hard to keep 2'000 men supplied then 1'000, it's far more difficult.

Just my thoughts.

So no, the Imperium would not fall apart that much faster then it is already if the Marines were to up and go. Human ingenuity will continue.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
GK has something IG doesn't.

Force concentration.

It doesn't matter if you would have sent untold tides of Bullgryns at Daemon Angron, he would just have nommed them all, ten by ten. He is a Daemon. He never tires.

If you had PA Ogryns with psychic powers, sure. And that were incorruptible as well.

But you don't.

What about two or three Titan Imperator ? Would that do nicely ? They can just step on Angron and his bloodthirsters, if they need to flatten them, you know.

The Imperium would have long ago crumbled without the Marines, it would crumble quickly without them, especially if we're assuming they spontaneously turn outright hostile.
Chapter Master Agnanthio rallying 50 Chapter Masters and arriving at Terra was enough to put the fear of the Emperor in the squabbling High Lords. Hundreds could destroy the mind of the Imperium and leave the body to fester, or bring about the Chaotic apocalypse.

As long as the Imperial Navy rules, the Imperium will reign.

I feel like singing British Gentleman modified to proper Imperium format...

To fight such forces such as a full deamon prince, greater deamons and such you may need to bring in a full psi titan, and a grey knight can rarely control a dreadknights, a human stands less chance to none minus augmented strength.

Killing them requires pretty specialised weapons, well with any effectiveness

Losing they grey knights is a massive capability gap, how many humans can take on full on deamons in close combat, and live/not be corrupted?

The Grey Knights work alongside humans for the missions more often than not, do not forget. The gap isn't that great, take the same logistical requirements in training/equipping the GK and put it into humans and you'll achieve the same overall effectiveness with more bodies and less force concentration. I agree the GKs are a more useful addition than the Space Marines, but still not necessary for survival.

The Imperium would be just fine, if not better, without the terribly uneffecient arm that is the Adeptus Astartes. If humans have proven anythign in their nature, it is that they can adapt quickly and find a new source of inspiritaiton when one is lost.

I think the question itself is wrong.

The Imperium is not holding together. This is the End of Times. It is all falling apart. We are told so here and there in the background.

True things ain't golden age, but they could get worse, now history reverses,s they still own cadia, 13th crusade not yet happened. Doo. Tickwd back a notch

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
The Imperium would be just fine, if not better, without the terribly uneffecient arm that is the Adeptus Astartes. If humans have proven anythign in their nature, it is that they can adapt quickly and find a new source of inspiritaiton when one is lost.

Has the fluff ever explicitly stated the production of Astartes was terribly inefficient? Or is that just speculation/extrapolation based on guess work for something where the exact numbers of the costs and benefits has never been given to us, the fans? Speculation which IMHO is futile given that technology, costs, and benefits in the 40th millennium are probably significantly different from the 20th century.

I'd think that if the astartes really were arguably a waste for the benefit they give, it'd have been brought up in a novel or codex or white dwarf article or fluff source SOMEWHERE. As far as I'm aware, there has never even been an in-universe case of Imperial citzens or even biased Chaos followers or Xenos debating, arguing, or thinking that marines were overcosted (as opposed to say, Titans, where the Tau felt Titans are an impractical waste of resources in-universe)

Doesn't matter one way or the other, the IoM is dying. SM have made no change in that, it is like all the SM fighting has been ponitless anyways. The IoM falls anyways, In fact if there was never SM in the first place the IoM would be better off.

Would there be an IoM in the first place if there weren't any SM?

Yea, the Emperor wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed sometimes (albeit mainly thanks to bad writing) but presumably if he could have conquered the galaxy better without spending all that time and resources on primarchs and space marines (and perhaps even having to make a deal with Chaos to make the primarchs...), he would have done so with normal humans. (unless he wanted the Horus Heresy to happen, of course)

The Astartes are often the most effective force against a variety of threats and not having that resource both in terms o actual ability and the sheer morale boosting of the Emperors chosen would be devestating, the Imperiukm could likely lurch no but if all the various threats remain intact then the end is much more likley and swifter in coming.

Plus: The Orks would be really fething anooyed that the Marines are not there to fight and take helmets from.......

re Logistics - very many Astartes undertstand this all too well - after all it is often their specfic task to destroy and disrupt these systems...............

TiamatRoar wrote:
Would there be an IoM in the first place if there weren't any SM?

Yea, the Emperor wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed sometimes (albeit mainly thanks to bad writing) but presumably if he could have conquered the galaxy better without spending all that time and resources on primarchs and space marines (and perhaps even having to make a deal with Chaos to make the primarchs...), he would have done so with normal humans. (unless he wanted the Horus Heresy to happen, of course)

You forgot the rest of the story and what happened to the Primarchs. The IoM was formed before he found his lost sons, it only then were they give their command, long after the base of the IoM was laid out. Not the other way around, nice try thou.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Would there be an IoM in the first place if there weren't any SM?

Yea, the Emperor wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed sometimes (albeit mainly thanks to bad writing) but presumably if he could have conquered the galaxy better without spending all that time and resources on primarchs and space marines (and perhaps even having to make a deal with Chaos to make the primarchs...), he would have done so with normal humans. (unless he wanted the Horus Heresy to happen, of course)

A few million super soldiers and a few thousand ships is not equal to quadrillions of men and billions of vessels with better mechanized elements.

Simple numbers means that the Space Marines are about as useful as a mustache on a car on the macro-scale.

I could defeat every space marine chapter by using the guard to roll over them like a tsunami; without firing a single shot. Just dog pile on them until they're crushed under the weight of the most important defenders of the Imperium.

Noir wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
Would there be an IoM in the first place if there weren't any SM?

Yea, the Emperor wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed sometimes (albeit mainly thanks to bad writing) but presumably if he could have conquered the galaxy better without spending all that time and resources on primarchs and space marines (and perhaps even having to make a deal with Chaos to make the primarchs...), he would have done so with normal humans. (unless he wanted the Horus Heresy to happen, of course)

You forgot the rest of the story and what happened to the Primarchs. The IoM was formed before he found his lost sons, it only then were they give their command, long after the base of the IoM was laid out. Not the other way around, nice try thou.

Emps had space marines before he had fully grown primarchs, not the other way around, remember? Nice try though.

This thread is very interesting.

I feel that the sheer amount of humans at the IoM's disposal, with its grand navy and logistical capabilities, that it would be okay, but slightly worse off without marines. Even in the grandest battles of the modern setting, marines are only there for special ops or in insignificant numbers that another few platoons couldn't compensate for. The special ops thing is really their main use in my opinion, but even that could be countered with specially trained/augmented humans (marines lite, so to speak).

I don't know, there are a ton of different ways to look at it. Either way, we already know the IoM is falling apart, it doesn't matter if marines are around or not, it is inevitable.

I like what was mentioned earlier, how if marines went rogue from the Imperium, that the Ultramar system would become a powerful empire in its own right, perhaps even a direct threat to the Imperium itself, since it's better organized and healthier.

 PrehistoricUFO wrote:
This thread is very interesting.

I feel that the sheer amount of humans at the IoM's disposal, with its grand navy and logistical capabilities, that it would be okay, but slightly worse off without marines. Even in the grandest battles of the modern setting, marines are only there for special ops or in insignificant numbers that another few platoons couldn't compensate for. The special ops thing is really their main use in my opinion, but even that could be countered with specially trained/augmented humans (marines lite, so to speak).

I don't know, there are a ton of different ways to look at it. Either way, we already know the IoM is falling apart, it doesn't matter if marines are around or not, it is inevitable.

I like what was mentioned earlier, how if marines went rogue from the Imperium, that the Ultramar system would become a powerful empire in its own right, perhaps even a direct threat to the Imperium itself, since it's better organized and healthier.

A nation of eight systems does not threaten an empire of millions of systems when they both work from the same tech-base.

 PrehistoricUFO wrote:

I like what was mentioned earlier, how if marines went rogue from the Imperium, that the Ultramar system would become a powerful empire in its own right, perhaps even a direct threat to the Imperium itself, since it's better organized and healthier.

Tangent: Come to think about it, an Ultramar that's cut off from the Imperium would still be screwed to hell if the Golden Throne gets destroyed. In a situation where the Imperium's life (and thus the Golden Throne) is at stake, t's really unlikely that any one who relies on the Astronomicon for warp travel would be able to consciously withdraw from the Imperium, as contributing to the Imperium's death would be akin to contributing to your own death.

(this logic wouldn't apply to one who believes the Golden Throne will continue to survive even if they do secede, of course. But with the Imperium more and more on the brink, more and more people would have to stop to consider that)


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 Kain wrote:

A few million super soldiers and a few thousand ships is not equal to quadrillions of men and billions of vessels with better mechanized elements.

Simple numbers means that the Space Marines are about as useful as a mustache on a car on the macro-scale.

I could defeat every space marine chapter by using the guard to roll over them like a tsunami; without firing a single shot. Just dog pile on them until they're crushed under the weight of the most important defenders of the Imperium.

Even if that were logically true, it doesn't mean it's canonically true ("canon" in this case being the fluff or novels taking that logic into consideration)

I don't recall it ever being mentioned in any novel or codex that the Great Crusade didn't need the Space Marines or that they were insignificant in their contributions to it. Only thing ever really touching on the issue are statements that are akin to Emps himself believing that he needed the Space Marines to do it, and maaaaybe Roboute's statement that he'd make due in a situation with 10 army troopers per space marine if no marines were available (but again, that would require extrapolation and deduction on our part rather than an explicit fluff statement) and no one in-universe explicitly challenging that belief.

Again, if it really was remotely the case in fluff or even arguable, why has no one in any novel or fluff ever mentioned the idea that marines weren't worth the cost or were unnecessary?

Yeah, I'm not smart.

The Astronomicon is barely visible, if at all, from the Eastern Fringe, which is where Ultramar is found. It would probably not be able to project force to, say, the Obscurus Sector (not easily or rapidly, anyway), but for local defense Ultramar would be fine.

A lack of Space Marines would not equal a lack of heavily armoured, elite soldiers. Partly because the majority of Marines are Warriors, not Soldiers. They concentrate on individual power and prowess, rather than working together.

Even without discussing the professionalism of the Marines, without them there are still the Sorororitas, who can fill any role the Astartes can. Of course, they suffer the same logistical problems as the Marines, if not more so, but if Angron was rampaging on Armageddon and there were no Grey Knights to summon? The Sororitas would do in a pinch. Faith has been shown to be an even more powerful weapon against daemonkind than witchery over and over, after all.

Marines only represent the secular power of the Imperium. Without them as a factor, you can bet your bolter that the Ecclesiarchy would have a much freer reign on recruitment. I expect that Sororitas production would increase massively without the Marines providing that comfortable bulwark against the obscene that lets the Administratum continue to limit Sororitas recruitment and the power of the Ecclesiarchy.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
A lack of Space Marines would not equal a lack of heavily armoured, elite soldiers. Partly because the majority of Marines are Warriors, not Soldiers. They concentrate on individual power and prowess, rather than working together.

Even without discussing the professionalism of the Marines, without them there are still the Sorororitas, who can fill any role the Astartes can. Of course, they suffer the same logistical problems as the Marines, if not more so, but if Angron was rampaging on Armageddon and there were no Grey Knights to summon? The Sororitas would do in a pinch. Faith has been shown to be an even more powerful weapon against daemonkind than witchery over and over, after all.

Marines only represent the secular power of the Imperium. Without them as a factor, you can bet your bolter that the Ecclesiarchy would have a much freer reign on recruitment. I expect that Sororitas production would increase massively without the Marines providing that comfortable bulwark against the obscene that lets the Administratum continue to limit Sororitas recruitment and the power of the Ecclesiarchy.

And the AdMech would also likely step up the recruitment and advancement of it's own military complete with it's own goodies. If there are no more marines to make power armor for; they can just make powered ceramite and adamantium suits for their more elite skitarii.

No genehancements? No problem, the flesh is weak anyway, besides; do space marine implants give you master crafted plasma cannons for hands? No? Thought so..

So you'd see the AdMech and Sorirtas largely supplanting the Marines.

Of course, redundancy in design is always good, so neither the AdMech nor the Sororitas actually want the Marines to vanish.

The AdMech would sure appreciate some more forge worlds, though, guys.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Of course, redundancy in design is always good, so neither the AdMech nor the Sororitas actually want the Marines to vanish.

The AdMech would sure appreciate some more forge worlds, though, guys.

Not to mention that it'd be heresy to want the Emperor's holy Angels of Death to vanish, eh?

Warriors so divine so they do not even worship the Emperor himself (Though they of course greatly revere and serve him)

Well, yes. Besides, what would all the pervert fanboys who don't like Slaanesh do without their "Onii-saaaaan!" Sororitas/Astartes fantasies?

Anyway. The Astartes worship the Emperor. That their piety is filial rather than divine is not an issue. They are pious none the less.

'I hope Astartes-senpai will notice me'?

"Ugh. There's no way my little sister could be this cute." blammo.

Little Sister?

And the Marine is the Big Daddy?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
'I hope Astartes-senpai will notice me'?

Senpai ?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
"Onii-saaaaan!"

Onii-saaaan ?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Little Sister?

And the Marine is the Big Daddy?

I think she was referring to some anime about a guy and his little sister who is into eroge and something. I do remember reading an article on WIkipedia about it, but I do not remember the title. I am not very much into anime. I prefer Japanese live-action movies, really, with Sushi Typhoon, and Female Convict Scorpion, and all that.

You know. Onii-san. "Big Brother". Because the Marines are the Emperor's sons, and the Sisters are the Emperor's daughters..? Which makes them..?

Lovers?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
You know. Onii-san.

That is precisely the problem : I do not know what Onii-san means. I know only one foreign language, and that is already quite nice, but I choose English over Japanese. Hence I do not know what Senpai means either.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Because the Marines are the Emperor's sons, and the Sisters are the Emperor's daughters..? Which makes them..?

Mortal enemies that will fight to the death over doctrinal disagreements ? Brothers and Sisters ? People that like to show off in power armor ?

Clearly, the joke has fallen flat. When that happens, it is best to move on.

They're siblings, yes. They fight like siblings. Squabble over disagreements on minor details, but when Nid from down the street starts picking on one, the other immediately snaps to backing them up and they put Nid down like a rotten apple.

So, what does Onii-san and sempaï means ? Or maybe I need to google-translate that .

Could the IoM survive without the SM's? Depends on how you look at it.

From a storyline perspective, the 40k universe sort of falls apart without them.

That said, from any sort of realistic perspective, the SM's are so rare and so small in number that they'd be a non-factor and the IoM wouldn't notice their disappearance from a practical perspective. They're like having 1 modern Navy Seal on something like WW2 Eastern Front multiplied by a thousand. When there's hundreds of millions of guardsmen per Space Marine, not to mention PDF/IN/Inq forces, even if it costs other forces 10x, 100x, or 1000x the resources to do what the SM's do, the SM's are just such a small factor that they'd still be a tiny fraction of a a percent of the Imperium's military might.

Essentially, 40k is a Fantasy universe set in Space. Relatively little about it works or even makes sense once you start really looking at it, and the Space Marines are chief amongst them. Not only are Space Marines just too few in number to accomplish anything on a galactic scale, they lack the logistical capabilities and loss-replacement to continue their existence with the casualties they are described as taking.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
So, what does Onii-san and sempaï means ? Or maybe I need to google-translate that .

Onii-san is Japanese for brother, but can be applied to other young men, usually of a higher standing.
Senpai is Japanese for senior I think, basically someone who's been doing something longer than you. A first year student would address and second year student as senpai for example.

At least that's the impression I got from watching some anime.

Ok, thanks !

Fine...

Onii-san is "Big Brother". It's considered quite a childish way of addressing a senior male. When used by young adults and adults, it only ever refers to someone else's elder sibling, with 'ani-sama' being the correct formal form, and 'aniki' being the casual form (which is also co-opted by gangsters to refer to their junior bosses). Onii-san has gained (due to anime culture) the implication of the speaker being a brocon - someone with a crush on, or romantic interest in their brother.

Sempai (more properly senpai) is 'upperlassman', basically. Someone of the same social or political rank as you, but who you treat as being your superior because you respect them, or because they are slightly older than you. Again, because of a lot of anime featuring girls with crushes on their upperclassmen, 'Senpai' has become a cult term for someone a teenage girl has a crush on.

TiamatRoar wrote:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
The Imperium would be just fine, if not better, without the terribly uneffecient arm that is the Adeptus Astartes. If humans have proven anythign in their nature, it is that they can adapt quickly and find a new source of inspiritaiton when one is lost.

Has the fluff ever explicitly stated the production of Astartes was terribly inefficient? Or is that just speculation/extrapolation based on guess work for something where the exact numbers of the costs and benefits has never been given to us, the fans? Speculation which IMHO is futile given that technology, costs, and benefits in the 40th millennium are probably significantly different from the 20th century.

I'd think that if the astartes really were arguably a waste for the benefit they give, it'd have been brought up in a novel or codex or white dwarf article or fluff source SOMEWHERE. As far as I'm aware, there has never even been an in-universe case of Imperial citzens or even biased Chaos followers or Xenos debating, arguing, or thinking that marines were overcosted (as opposed to say, Titans, where the Tau felt Titans are an impractical waste of resources in-universe)

The fluff states this all over the place. If you are looking for a direct quote you are looking incorrectly at 'canon' which you like to toss around without knowing how it is generated. You determine this 'canon' by looking at facts:

1. Does the Imperium spend a LOT of resources and effort into providing for the Adeptus Astartes? Yes, obviously.
2. More than it would spend on a unit of Marines, Sisters of Battle or other combat oriented force? Yes, obviously.
3. Could those resources be used to help the other organizations if it wasn't needed to support the Marines? Yes, obviously.

These aren't exactly leaps in logic...specialization is a good price point for what it is designed to handle with that specialization and that specialization only. So this specific organization that handles certain problems with its own hierarchy of leadership, logistics, support and combat personel...certainly would be more effecient if added to another established organization that can dedicate a branch to that same project instead of a huge company. This is why buyouts happen, and higher leadership is often booted to make it instantly profitable.

Wasn't it shown/stated in another thread that it costs almost as much to train a sister as it does a marine?

Also, you listed the cost but you didn't list the benefits. The question is if the marines are worth the cost for the benefits they provide. Pointing out that they're expensive means nothing if you can't point out that their benefits are not worth that cost. And I've never seen anything in the fluff that says marines are either ineffectual or aren't achieving anything. You can attempt to use logic to deduce that they aren't based on numbers alone, but what's ACTUALLY going on in the fluff is either disagreeing with your logic that or it's the propaganda effect (I'll concede the latter is a huge possibility, but that's some awfully expensive propaganda if that's the case AND propaganda counts as a benefit in and of itself, anyways)

Again, if space marines weren't providing a good benefit for their cost, it logically would have shown up somewhere. Instead, they have always been portrayed as achieving stuff, even if to mary sue nonsense levels sometimes. But hey, an expensive mary sue that'ssomehow canonically achieving stuff ("canon" in this case being what the fluff says. Such as "this space marine chapter saved this planet." being stated in a codex) despite how they logically shouldn't is still someone that's canonically achieving stuff (unless it's propaganda, of course)

Yes, it logically makes no sense that 100 marines saved or conquered an entire planet. That doesn't change the fact that, in the fluff, they DID (barring propagandic lies). Thus, no matter what your logic says, fluff-wise the marines have a high chance of providing benefit to justify their cost, even if it's simply because the fluff might not always be logical.

They may not match the there propaganda image, however they are effective elite forces for the most high risk missions. They can survive environments that can kill a guardsman in hours.

Fluff wise they are a powerful elite unit, often hundreds of years of experience, unparalleled spec ops troops and assault units.

Small scale, but ideal for the most dangerous and important battlefield missions where no others will do.

Space Marines base their existence, in fact the only way they could possibly exist is illogical.

Makes sense that they can conquer planets and whatnot from there...

Is that based on the mathematical ideal of "error carried forward", Shi-shi?

In regards to marines not being shown to be inefficient, there is ALOT of propaganda going on, just not by IOM.

GW likes your money.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
[…]Onii-san has gained (due to anime culture) the implication of the speaker being a brocon - someone with a crush on, or romantic interest in their brother.

[…]Again, because of a lot of anime featuring girls with crushes on their upperclassmen, 'Senpai' has become a cult term for someone a teenage girl has a crush on.

I see. I was not aware of all that, because I do not have time to watch Japanese cartoons. I am too busy with their live-action movies ! And since those are usually, unlike anime, completely dubbed or subbed in English or French…

 Ashiraya wrote:
Space Marines base their existence, in fact the only way they could possibly exist is illogical.

Makes sense that they can conquer planets and whatnot from there...

So, you are Haraldus, right ? I mean, you changed your avatar, and then you changed your username… it is getting a bit confusing.

 purplefood wrote:

jhe90 wrote:
Minus there elite combat arm, they would not last as long. Baselines humans cannot fight with same sheer aggression and durability

But they do have the bloody mindedness and massive numbers to make up for it.

The foremost virtue of a Space Marine isn't his aggression or durability. It's his resistance to Chaos.

Imperial Guard go traitor all the time. Hell, the Tau have IG working for them happily, and they don't have magic psy powers of corrupting the mind.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Is that based on the mathematical ideal of "error carried forward", Shi-shi?

More like 'It's so crazy so who cares if it gets a little crazier?'

The very premise of Marines, the premise of the Imperium, is so illogical in itself so at this point it's like having an army of giant toys invade while everyone complains that the toys are not equally represented.

It's one thing trying to maintain suspension of disbelief and all that, I can sympathise with that. But this is not quite the same.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

So, you are Haraldus, right ? I mean, you changed your avatar, and then you changed your username… it is getting a bit confusing.

Yes. Suffice it to say I have my reasons for changing the name.

Like Vakathi said, in a "realistic" setting, Space Marines don't have a very large impact on the Galaxy, and without them the Imperium would go on.

No point in discussing it from a realistic viewpoint though, because from a realistic viewpoint the Imperial Guard wouldn't work either, with the way they're organized. Too few of them on any one battlefield at any one time.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Like Vakathi said, in a "realistic" setting, Space Marines don't have a very large impact on the Galaxy, and without them the Imperium would go on.

No point in discussing it from a realistic viewpoint though, because from a realistic viewpoint the Imperial Guard wouldn't work either, with the way they're organized. Too few of them on any one battlefield at any one time.

I am not sure if any of the races would work from a realistic viewpoint.

They all use heavy handwavium in order to get their stuff working.

It's true. The "SciFi writers suck at scale" trope is present in just about every aspect of 40K.

It's just funny, because people generally only point out the numbers deficiency when discussing Marines. A thousand marines can't hold a planet, yet a single regiment can and routinely does in the fluff, and that's alright apparently.

 EmpNortonII wrote:


The foremost virtue of a Space Marine isn't his aggression or durability. It's his resistance to Chaos.

Imperial Guard go traitor all the time. Hell, the Tau have IG working for them happily, and they don't have magic psy powers of corrupting the mind.

You seem to be confusing Space Marines with Battle Sisters. I know, it's an easy mistake to make, but the difference is that one can take a bullet, the other can resist chaos...

I can't think of any Sisters off-hand who've tanked bullets, so I'm not sure that's correct.

Now I'm trying to work out if you're serious or trolling.

Snark begets snark.

It is true that there is some hand waving in for most of the races (I wouldn't say all) when it comes to the numbers required to accomplish tasks.

I'd say the Tyranids, Orks, and Necrons...all seem to accomplish what you'd imagine they'd accomplish based on their respective numbers and capability. The Space Marines are mentioned by some, and supported by me, because of how terribly bad the hand waving is to make some of the 'forge the narrative' writing done on their behalf. Far worse than any other in game organization.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
It is true that there is some hand waving in for most of the races (I wouldn't say all) when it comes to the numbers required to accomplish tasks.

I'd say the Tyranids, Orks, and Necrons...all seem to accomplish what you'd imagine they'd accomplish based on their respective numbers and capability. The Space Marines are mentioned by some, and supported by me, because of how terribly bad the hand waving is to make some of the 'forge the narrative' writing done on their behalf. Far worse than any other in game organization.

Battle Sisters? They are far fewer than Space Marines.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Snark begets snark.

And heresy begets retribution.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Yes. Suffice it to say I have my reasons for changing the name.

Yes, no problem with the name change. Your avatar changed again !

 EmpNortonII wrote:
The foremost virtue of a Space Marine isn't his aggression or durability. It's his resistance to Chaos.

I do not agree, they are not that useless ! I mean, they wear power armor, after all, that gives them some relative durability !

.......well, along this line of thought, I suppose the answer to the original poster's question is "It depends on whether or not Games Workshop wants it to fall apart without the Space Marines."

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Snark begets snark.

And heresy begets retribution.

And retribution begets EXTERMINATUS!

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 purplefood wrote:

jhe90 wrote:
Minus there elite combat arm, they would not last as long. Baselines humans cannot fight with same sheer aggression and durability

But they do have the bloody mindedness and massive numbers to make up for it.

The foremost virtue of a Space Marine isn't his aggression or durability. It's his resistance to Chaos.

Imperial Guard go traitor all the time. Hell, the Tau have IG working for them happily, and they don't have magic psy powers of corrupting the mind.

Load and loads of Astartes have fallen to Chaos - hey half of the original Legions did....and its not that uncommon in the "present day" - only the Grey Kinghts are heavily resistant to Choas - Astartes are resistant to some aspects but often their pride and other emotions sends them into the hands of the enemy. Linrarians are also another point of weakness for Choas incursion.

Depending on what you read about the Tau depends on if you think they have mind control - see the Vespid......................

Astartes being especially susceptible to falling is a logical fallacy. If the Guard had been in the Marines' shoes during the crusade you can be damn sure they wouldn't be better off.

The fault lies with the Primarchs and the way the Emperor handled them, plain and simple. Yeah, of course the Marines followed their Primarchs. If the Guard had equivalents they would probably fall even faster due to lack of psycho-conditioning and being trained to only follow orders and not act independently.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hell, the same would probably go for Sisters. Fanaticism is well and good, but when the Emperor is distant and Alicia Dominica is standing in front if them...

 Ashiraya wrote:
Astartes being especially susceptible to falling is a logical fallacy.

"The Traitor Legions are not the only Space Marines to fall to Chaos. Each millennium, dozens of disillusioned or power-hungry chapters defect, just as Horus did. Only the High Lords and the Inquisition have any idea of how deep the rot goes." - Codex CSM.

Corrupted Astartes = dozens of chapters. Corrupted Sisters = 1 (maybe)

Really we should just burn them all now and be done with it.

The HH series has really done a number on the image of the Astartes - admittedly the Chapters of 40K are not the same as the Legions of 30K, but the arrogance and insularity of the Astartes (even the loyalists at times) does make it easy to believe that they would fall.

There are on average 1 space marine per inhabited planet.

That includes chapters like the Black Templars, who actually spend their time wandering the galaxy on a journey of self fulfilment, and the Ultramarines, who spend their time almost getting their home world obliterated by the Tyranids.

 ashcroft wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Astartes being especially susceptible to falling is a logical fallacy.

"The Traitor Legions are not the only Space Marines to fall to Chaos. Each millennium, dozens of disillusioned or power-hungry chapters defect, just as Horus did. Only the High Lords and the Inquisition have any idea of how deep the rot goes." - Codex CSM.

Corrupted Astartes = dozens of chapters. Corrupted Sisters = 1 (maybe)

Really we should just burn them all now and be done with it.

The HH series has really done a number on the image of the Astartes - admittedly the Chapters of 40K are not the same as the Legions of 30K, but the arrogance and insularity of the Astartes (even the loyalists at times) does make it easy to believe that they would fall.

Implying IG do not fall in proportional or even greater numbers?

Yes there record is not great, they are not incoruptable however unlike IG, do not need a comisars bolt pistol to stay loyal and follow orders.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 ashcroft wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Astartes being especially susceptible to falling is a logical fallacy.

"The Traitor Legions are not the only Space Marines to fall to Chaos. Each millennium, dozens of disillusioned or power-hungry chapters defect, just as Horus did. Only the High Lords and the Inquisition have any idea of how deep the rot goes." - Codex CSM.

Corrupted Astartes = dozens of chapters. Corrupted Sisters = 1 (maybe)

Really we should just burn them all now and be done with it.

The HH series has really done a number on the image of the Astartes - admittedly the Chapters of 40K are not the same as the Legions of 30K, but the arrogance and insularity of the Astartes (even the loyalists at times) does make it easy to believe that they would fall.

Implying IG do not fall in proportional or even greater numbers?

The Astra Militarum it is now.
The good news is, even then the new dex is clear that at the time of the HH the Imperial Army turned as much as the others.
Marines chose their allegiance, imperial army did too, Titan Legios did, knight houses did, the mechanicum itself...
So IG should be equally capable of turning traitor.


GW had to have Space marines turn, to keep the CSM from eradication.
Plus "space marines aren't incorruptible" is a silly argument. No one campaigns to get rid of the Mechanicum, no matter that they didn't stay loyal to the throne.to a 100% .. its always just the SM and always the same part of the fanbase.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Implying IG do not fall in proportional or even greater numbers?

It's an interesting question really.

Traitor Guard get a lot less attention in the fluff of course, likely since they haven't been an official army since RT. My impression has always been that the IG are most likely to turn to Chaos as a side effect of rebellion or secession by their commanders. It's just a new banner to follow rather than a new ideology like it is for the Astartes. So while the IG may turn to Chaos in greater number than the marines it's less significant when they do so.

Not to say that they wouldn't make an interesting army. Abnett's done some good work at giving them a face with the Blood Pact (though they're more modelled on the IG than recruited from them as such) but generally they're very overshadowed by the guys in the spiky power armor.

 1hadhq wrote:

GW had to have Space marines turn, to keep the CSM from eradication.
Plus "space marines aren't incorruptible" is a silly argument. No one campaigns to get rid of the Mechanicum, no matter that they didn't stay loyal to the throne.to a 100% .. its always just the SM and always the same part of the fanbase.

If people started threads about how the AdMech are incorruptible and so on, then I can guarrantee you 100% that the same 'part of the fanbase' that you are trying to claim are victimising you would make exactly the same comments about them.

 Ashiraya wrote:
If the Guard had been in the Marines' shoes during the crusade you can be damn sure they wouldn't be better off.

How ? Why ?

 Ashiraya wrote:
The fault lies with the Primarchs and the way the Emperor handled them, plain and simple.

So, the Guardsmen are very susceptible to corruption, the Primarchs are very susceptible to corruption, but somehow the Astartes are not ? Uh ?

 Ashiraya wrote:
If the Guard had equivalents they would probably fall even faster due to lack of psycho-conditioning and being trained to only follow orders and not act independently.

Your first argument defeats your second argument.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Hell, the same would probably go for Sisters.

Yeah, we all know what happened when the Sisters' supreme leader went rogue. Not even Chaos, just rogue. Alicia Dominica decapitated him. So, now you know what would have happened if there were Sisters during the Heresy, rather than Astartes. A few decapitated primarchs.

jhe90 wrote:
Yes there record is not great, they are not incoruptable however unlike IG, do not need a comisars bolt pistol to stay loyal and follow orders.

Yeah, unlike the marines, the imperial guard know fear. However, the Marines now pride, bitterness, power-hungriness, hate, …

 1hadhq wrote:
The good news is, even then the new dex is clear that at the time of the HH the Imperial Army turned as much as the others.
Marines chose their allegiance, imperial army did too, Titan Legios did, knight houses did, the mechanicum itself...

See just above. The marines made an ideological choice. The Imperial Army wet their pants because the choice was to follow the order from their legion overlord or get killed in gruesome, horrible, painful ways. That makes a world of difference.

If the Marines turned hostile? Depends if they ganged up. If they did they'd be unstoppable, if not then meh.. There are billions of Guard to a marine but we've seen the competence of Guard generals and the response times for Imperial Guard units. You also have to consider that any worlds that the SMs have control over, like recruiting worlds, will immediately stop giving tithes to the IoM. It'd be a close one, but I don't think there are enough SMs to take a sizable chunk of the IoM.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
If the Marines turned hostile? Depends if they ganged up. If they did they'd be unstoppable (...)

Unless, of course, they tried to travel from planet A to planet B. The Imperial Navy would easily destroy them all.

But yeah, if they all meet in a single planet, and the Guard lacks resources to destroy them, and the Imperial Navy is not there, then the planet is probably doomed.

 da001 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
If the Marines turned hostile? Depends if they ganged up. If they did they'd be unstoppable (...)

Unless, of course, they tried to travel from planet A to planet B. The Imperial Navy would easily destroy them all.

But yeah, if they all meet in a single planet, and the Guard lacks resources to destroy them, and the Imperial Navy is not there, then the planet is probably doomed.

Battle Barges are extremely fast and extremely powerful

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 da001 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
If the Marines turned hostile? Depends if they ganged up. If they did they'd be unstoppable (...)

Unless, of course, they tried to travel from planet A to planet B. The Imperial Navy would easily destroy them all.

But yeah, if they all meet in a single planet, and the Guard lacks resources to destroy them, and the Imperial Navy is not there, then the planet is probably doomed.

Battle Barges are extremely fast and extremely powerful

Just like Imperial Battleships... only there is far less of them.

It is exactly like Space Marines Vs Guarsmen. Marines are an elite army, incredibly small. One million soldiers, one thousand Battle Barges... a drop of water in the ocean that is the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
There are billions of Guard to a marine but we've seen the competence of Guard generals

Do you mean Creed, or Macharius ? Because both are geniuses that match or outclass their SM equivalents.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
You also have to consider that any worlds that the SMs have control over, like recruiting worlds, will immediately stop giving tithes to the IoM.

Which they do not already. On the other hand, the Mechanicus will not have to spend so much resources on marine stuff.

Battle barges are massively powerful in bombardment and combat, though a dedicated impirial battleship may have edge in space combat.

 ashcroft wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Implying IG do not fall in proportional or even greater numbers?

It's an interesting question really.

Traitor Guard get a lot less attention in the fluff of course, likely since they haven't been an official army since RT. My impression has always been that the IG are most likely to turn to Chaos as a side effect of rebellion or secession by their commanders. It's just a new banner to follow rather than a new ideology like it is for the Astartes. So while the IG may turn to Chaos in greater number than the marines it's less significant when they do so.

Not to say that they wouldn't make an interesting army. Abnett's done some good work at giving them a face with the Blood Pact (though they're more modelled on the IG than recruited from them as such) but generally they're very overshadowed by the guys in the spiky power armor.

The need to preserve CSM and the fact that Astartes in general recieve colossal amounts of GW attention is probably the #1 reason of traitor SM seeming so common when they are not.

Your first argument defeats your second argument.

Psycho-conditioning =/= training to follow orders.

The lack of psycho-conditioning makes them less resistant to turning against the Emperor overall. The training to only follow orders rather than thinking individually means that once an IG officer fall the rest of his men falls like domino bricks. Istvaan III would never have happened in a Guard Heresy, because those who would have remained loyal would be too few to make a stand.

So, the Guardsmen are very susceptible to corruption, the Primarchs are very susceptible to corruption, but somehow the Astartes are not ? Uh ?

Everyone that is not Grey Knights, Custodes, possibly Sisters (That we have only seen them fall once so far does not mean that they can't ever do so, but then, the same goes for GK) or one of the few special individuals like Emps himself can fall.

Marines can fall, though their psycho-conditioning into Emperor-loyalty and training into thinking more individually than Guardsmen do beyond Emperor-loyalty helps them.

Yeah, we all know what happened when the Sisters' supreme leader went rogue. Not even Chaos, just rogue. Alicia Dominica decapitated him. So, now you know what would have happened if there were Sisters during the Heresy, rather than Astartes. A few decapitated primarchs.

My proposed idea was what would happen if some time later, far from Terra, Alicia Dominica, Katherine and the rest would start planting the seeds of corruption in the Sisterhood.

I doubt that they would have resisted that. It's the closest equivalent to having your Primarch fall as well.

Yeah, unlike the marines, the imperial guard know fear. However, the Marines now pride, bitterness, power-hungriness, hate, …

Which Guard do too. One could argue that Marines feel greater arrogance but they do have psycho-conditioning helping with that part.

See just above. The marines made an ideological choice. The Imperial Army wet their pants because the choice was to follow the order from their legion overlord or get killed in gruesome, horrible, painful ways. That makes a world of difference.

We don't have a lot of info on this, but to me it seems (Like what happened to the crew of the Dies Irae) that it was not nearly as much force in play as you think.

After all, the 63rd expeditionary fleet LOVED Horus.

Furyou Miko wrote:

If people started threads about how the AdMech are incorruptible and so on, then I can guarrantee you 100% that the same 'part of the fanbase' that you are trying to claim are victimising you would make exactly the same comments about them.

Me victimzed ?
Really?

There is an obvious pattern. Easy to prove.
But OT, so am not venturing off .

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: So, now you know what would have happened if there were Sisters during the Heresy, rather than Astartes. A few decapitated primarchs.

No.

HH/Scars. page 73:
Malcador,Jaghatai and Big E's choices.
Malcador smiled. 'You Brothers - such a nest of rivalries. I warned him to make you sisters, that it would make things more civilised.
He thought I was joking. I wasn't.'

To question the Emperor is...Heresy. So go purge thyself.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
The marines made an ideological choice. The Imperial Army wet their pants because the choice was to follow the order from their legion overlord or get killed in gruesome, horrible, painful ways. That makes a world of difference.

No. The local leaders were as powerhungry as humans always are.
Wet pants aren't the reason the IoM broke nearly down.

 Ashiraya wrote:
My proposed idea was what would happen if some time later, far from Terra, Alicia Dominica, Katherine and the rest would start planting the seeds of corruption in the Sisterhood.

I doubt that the lead Sisters would fall so easily. Remember, most of the Primarchs who fell were unstable/disloyal in the first place. Meanwhile, the Sisters are all extremely indoctrinated and faithful, with the top Sisters being the best at this within their organisation.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I doubt that they would have resisted that. It's the closest equivalent to having your Primarch fall as well.

Eh, I'll have to disagree. I think that the Sisters would notice their leaders going off-message. And I don't think that anywhere near the same percentage of Sisters would fall as Marines did since, again, there were pre-existing faults within those Legions that Chaos could exploit.

 Troike wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
My proposed idea was what would happen if some time later, far from Terra, Alicia Dominica, Katherine and the rest would start planting the seeds of corruption in the Sisterhood.

I doubt that the lead Sisters would fall so easily. Remember, most of the Primarchs who fell were unstable/disloyal in the first place. Meanwhile, the Sisters are all extremely indoctrinated and faithful, with the top Sisters being the best at this within their organisation.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I doubt that they would have resisted that. It's the closest equivalent to having your Primarch fall as well.

Eh, I'll have to disagree. I think that the Sisters would notice their leaders going off-message. And I don't think that anywhere near the same percentage of Sisters would fall as Marines did since, again, there were pre-existing faults within those Legions that Chaos could exploit.

*cough* Goge Vandire *cough*
It took the Emperor himself to get the Sisters to notice their leader had gone off-message. As if the insanity, cruelty, love of torture and needless slaughter of billions wasn't a hint. The greatest weakness of the Sisters is their loyalty to the Ecclessiarchy. The Ecclessiarchy is not in accordance with the Emperor's ideals. It is corrupt, power-hungry and far from infallible. If the Ecclessiarchy falls again, the Sisters are likely to fall with it.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
*cough* Goge Vandire *cough*

Not really the same thing. Through all of that, they still believed they were faithfully serving the Emperor. Their faith wasn't perverted or broken, just misdirected. That's very different to outright abandoning the Emperor and serving Chaos instead. So, in this hypothetical scenario, I'm still going to say that the Sisters would be far, far better placed to resist corruption than the Legions that fell.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
It took the Emperor himself to get the Sisters to notice their leader had gone off-message. As if the insanity, cruelty, love of torture and needless slaughter of billions wasn't a hint.

And they've certainly learned from this since.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The greatest weakness of the Sisters is their loyalty to the Ecclessiarchy. The Ecclessiarchy is not in accordance with the Emperor's ideals. It is corrupt, power-hungry and far from infallible. If the Ecclessiarchy falls again, the Sisters are likely to fall with it.

The Sisters don't just follow the Ecclesiarchy blindly. They actually serve as its internal policing force. They both monitor the Ecclesiarchy and execute any clergy who step out if line. What's more, they live separately from the Ecclesiarchy, so the two aren't joined at the hip, so to speak.

Also, it is incorrect to say that the whole Ecclesiarchy is corrupt and power-hungry. Some clergy could be, sure, but plenty of them are very sincere in serving the Imperial Creed.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Psycho-conditioning =/= training to follow orders.

So, do you mean that Astartes disobeys orders more often than guardsmen ?
Astartes are more likely to follow their officers if the officers fall. A guardsman is more likely to disagree and rebel.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Marines can fall, though their psycho-conditioning into Emperor-loyalty and training into thinking more individually than Guardsmen do beyond Emperor-loyalty helps them.

So, let me rephrase : primarchs can fall very easily (between 9 and 11 out of 20 fell !), guardsmen can fall very easily, and astartes hardly ever fall ?

 Ashiraya wrote:
My proposed idea was what would happen if some time later, far from Terra, Alicia Dominica, Katherine and the rest would start planting the seeds of corruption in the Sisterhood.

The question is, would they have been forced into the repentia, or outright executed, then. But for some reason, it did not happen. That reason is Alicia Dominica, Katherine and the rest never fell to Chaos. Which is not surprising.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Which Guard do too.

Yeah, but it is exacerbated by the culture of most if not all marine chapters.

 1hadhq wrote:
No.

HH/Scars. page 73:
Malcador,Jaghatai and Big E's choices.
Malcador smiled. 'You Brothers - such a nest of rivalries. I warned him to make you sisters, that it would make things more civilised.
He thought I was joking. I wasn't.'

I, uh, completely fail to see your point. Do you even have one ?
Malcador made a sexist comment to one primarch about how primarchs should have been female. How is that related to the Sororitas ?

 1hadhq wrote:
No. The local leaders were as powerhungry as humans always are.

Local leaders ? Are we talking planetary governor, or Imperial Army ? Because the leader of the Imperial Army were astartes.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
*cough* Goge Vandire *cough*

Yeah, a good example of the fact the Sisters would kill their leaders if they go out of control, and not an example of a Sister of Battle falling because… well, he was not a sister of battle, he was some bureaucrat from the administratum.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
It took the Emperor himself to get the Sisters to notice their leader had gone off-message. As if the insanity, cruelty, love of torture and needless slaughter of billions wasn't a hint.

The Emperor is good at taking such hint, because he now have a lot of practice. He failed the couple of first time too, though. Cruze, Angron, …

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The greatest weakness of the Sisters is their loyalty to the Ecclessiarchy. The Ecclessiarchy is not in accordance with the Emperor's ideals. It is corrupt, power-hungry and far from infallible. If the Ecclessiarchy falls again, the Sisters are likely to fall with it.

Except for the part about one of their most important role being to police the Ecclesiarchy and execute any apostate or heretic member of the clergy. Yeah, apart from the fact they will zealously kill any member of the Ecclesiarchy who would fail, they certainly would fall. Not.

Also the Ecclesiarchy did not fall in the first place during Vandire's reign of blood. What actually happened is that the Administratum fell to the scheming of a dictatorial madman, which then killed the Ecclesiarch and took his place by force. The first part may happen again, but now thanks to the Sororitas, it will be way, way harder for the second part to happen !

I think it would eventually doom the imperium unless you got a commensurate positive boon. For example, you could lose every marine but if you got say a Single working non hostile man of iron into an open minded tech magus's dendrites then the imperium would lose ground temporarily, for probably a millennia, then bulldoze all opposition in the galaxy. People forget that it would only take finding a few uncorrupted golden age STCs to make the Imperium an unstoppable aggressor.

Plus guard formations can be very nasty. I'm thinking about the Elysian D99. If that level of tech could augment all guardsmen at the cost of losing the marines.... might be worth it, frankly.

 Silverthorne wrote:
I think it would eventually doom the imperium unless you got a commensurate positive boon. For example, you could lose every marine but if you got say a Single working non hostile man of iron into an open minded tech magus's dendrites then the imperium would lose ground temporarily, for probably a millennia, then bulldoze all opposition in the galaxy. People forget that it would only take finding a few uncorrupted golden age STCs to make the Imperium an unstoppable aggressor.

Plus guard formations can be very nasty. I'm thinking about the Elysian D99. If that level of tech could augment all guardsmen at the cost of losing the marines.... might be worth it, frankly.

Except that most areotech like the men of iron is impossible to use due to the existence of scrapcode. Hell, it's even a big part of IOM fluff that they abhor the use of full AI's... which the men of iron and all things like them are. They'd work great at the start, right up till they got infected and now the Lost and the Damned has a near functionally infinite army of sentient machines. And there's how any areotech with an AI is hostile to 40K humanity and the Inquisition will likely kill anyone they find consorting with AI's from the DAOT.

I've thought about that, and I don't agree. Scrapcode only affects where it was deployed, primarily Mars (most damagingly). It's not some pervasive force through the galaxy, like Chaos in general is. It's a specific weapon that is contained. That's why the average guardsman isn't too worried about scrap code in the main targetting computer of his Rus, or whatever.

Find and Iron Man or STC from an abandoned outer world, like on the Eastern Fringe or beyond the Ghoul Stars and it would have never been affected by the scrapcode, which was deployed centuries later and light years away. Given the logarithmic learning ability of either an STC or an Iron Man (and their ability to create each other) eventually it would be possible to eliminate scrapcode using their essentially infinite computational and design power. These machines are almost unthinkably powerful. Once one is recaptured, probably by Space Marines (Who may or may not share it immediately with the IoM) who can better respect its power and not enslave it as we did in 15,000 AD, things will change pretty dramatically.

Zookie wrote:
If all the loyal Space Marine Chapters cut ties with the IOM and all became either neutral or even hostile could the IOM hold together?

No, because there are more Baneblades than there are individual Space Marines.
The production of war materials would just have to be slightly ramped up.

Cyten wrote:

Zookie wrote:
If all the loyal Space Marine Chapters cut ties with the IOM and all became either neutral or even hostile could the IOM hold together?

No, because there are more Baneblades than there are individual Space Marines.
The production of war materials would just have to be slightly ramped up.

Truly says something about the might of the Space Marines, if they are fewer than Baneblades and still instrumental to the Imperium's survival.

 Silverthorne wrote:
I've thought about that, and I don't agree. Scrapcode only affects where it was deployed, primarily Mars (most damagingly). It's not some pervasive force through the galaxy, like Chaos in general is. It's a specific weapon that is contained. That's why the average guardsman isn't too worried about scrap code in the main targetting computer of his Rus, or whatever.

Find and Iron Man or STC from an abandoned outer world, like on the Eastern Fringe or beyond the Ghoul Stars and it would have never been affected by the scrapcode, which was deployed centuries later and light years away. Given the logarithmic learning ability of either an STC or an Iron Man (and their ability to create each other) eventually it would be possible to eliminate scrapcode using their essentially infinite computational and design power. These machines are almost unthinkably powerful. Once one is recaptured, probably by Space Marines (Who may or may not share it immediately with the IoM) who can better respect its power and not enslave it as we did in 15,000 AD, things will change pretty dramatically.

Nevermind that actually, quick check on the Lexicanum revealed that the Men of Iron hated humanity, which was why they attacked them. The IOM isn't ever going to find an untainted Men of Iron STC given that they all loathed humanity and attempted to wipe them out in the first place.

(And given the power of DAOT AI's revealed in such books as Death of Integrity, releasing a new faction on the galaxy that is self-replicating and powered by an AI that can Hollywood hack anything instant that is near it like it's a mini Void Dragon is probably a bad idea.)

 Ashiraya wrote:

Cyten wrote:

Zookie wrote:
If all the loyal Space Marine Chapters cut ties with the IOM and all became either neutral or even hostile could the IOM hold together?

No, because there are more Baneblades than there are individual Space Marines.
The production of war materials would just have to be slightly ramped up.

Truly says something about the might of the Space Marines, if they are fewer than Baneblades and still instrumental to the Imperium's survival.

Except they're not instrumental

Space Marines' niche is that they're the only force that can give a rapid response to things without having to go through a ton of red tape first. Whether or not that's instrumental, I dunno, but no fluff source ever implied it wasn't.

Yes I think they could. Proof:

Solar Macharious. The man led a mostly imperial guard crusade for 7 years that brought 1000 worlds back to the Imperium.

Yes, there were some marines in the crusade but their numbers were minuscule.

A regular man, with great ideas and a sharp mind led an entire armada of regular humans on a crusade that was so successful it is compared to the original creation of the imperium.

The Imperial Guard/Navy/ Titan Legions can maintain the imperium of man without the Space Marines. Storm Troopers would probably have to take over thier roles, but with the release of materials, more storm troopers could equipped, rapid response fleets could be created. It would be different, but possible.

Sure, it may end up smaller, but they could keep the IoM alive.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

Cyten wrote:

Zookie wrote:
If all the loyal Space Marine Chapters cut ties with the IOM and all became either neutral or even hostile could the IOM hold together?

No, because there are more Baneblades than there are individual Space Marines.
The production of war materials would just have to be slightly ramped up.

Truly says something about the might of the Space Marines, if they are fewer than Baneblades and still instrumental to the Imperium's survival.

Except they're not instrumental

Huh, how strange, because my 6th ed rulebook here says differently.

I wonder who I shall believe, an IG player on a forum or an official GW publication?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Comrade wrote:

A regular man, with great ideas and a sharp mind led an entire armada of regular humans on a crusade that was so successful it is compared to the original creation of the imperium.

To my knowledge, the current Imperium consists of a million worlds. Most of these were conquered during the Great Crusade.

A thousand worlds is impressive but nowhere near that number.

 Comrade wrote:

The Imperial Guard/Navy/ Titan Legions can maintain the imperium of man without the Space Marines. Storm Troopers would probably have to take over thier roles, but with the release of materials, more storm troopers could equipped, rapid response fleets could be created. It would be different, but possible.

You don't know the numbers behind how many "materials" would be released if Space Marines were no longer funded. You don't know the exact expense of them either. In addition, there are several benefits that Space Marines have that storm troopers never could, such as much much longer life spans, less need to eat or drink, better regeneration abilities and less susceptibility to sickness, the ability to go for long periods without sleeping, etc etc etc.

Space Marines are expensive per marine, but one marine lasts a much longer time than one storm trooper on average, in addition to the other benefits. However, because we do not have exact numbers behind either the expense or the benefit (and I doubt GW is going to have the Imperium's accountants show us the Imperium's fiscal year financial statements any time soon), any statement regarding their "release of materials" allowing storm troopers to pick up their role is EXTREMELY speculative at best.

Less need to eat/drink/sleep is taken care of by the armor of the Marines, going by the new ST fluff, their mask have the same function, and they can go a long time without sleeping, they can also operate in the void and survive atmospherical entry (what? no yes really and without a drop at that)

A certain planet also breeds ST that are just about immune to most diseases and are more often than not sent out to deal with Nurgle stuff.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Less need to eat/drink/sleep is taken care of by the armor of the Marines, going by the new ST fluff, their mask have the same function, and they can go a long time without sleeping, they can also operate in the void and survive atmospherical entry (what? no yes really and without a drop at that)

A certain planet also breeds ST that are just about immune to most diseases and are more often than not sent out to deal with Nurgle stuff.

Man who can't survive being dropped from orbit these days?

It's like everyone in fiction is deciding that the best way to show you're a badass is to fall out of the sky and step out of your crater.

Fall out of space in this case, I cringed a little when I read that part, to be honest.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Fall out of space in this case, I cringed a little when I read that part, to be honest.

Idea: Drop Scions and their gear from orbit to both bombard the enemy with kinetic kill vehicles and deep striked soldiers.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
I've thought about that, and I don't agree. Scrapcode only affects where it was deployed, primarily Mars (most damagingly). It's not some pervasive force through the galaxy, like Chaos in general is. It's a specific weapon that is contained. That's why the average guardsman isn't too worried about scrap code in the main targetting computer of his Rus, or whatever.

Find and Iron Man or STC from an abandoned outer world, like on the Eastern Fringe or beyond the Ghoul Stars and it would have never been affected by the scrapcode, which was deployed centuries later and light years away. Given the logarithmic learning ability of either an STC or an Iron Man (and their ability to create each other) eventually it would be possible to eliminate scrapcode using their essentially infinite computational and design power. These machines are almost unthinkably powerful. Once one is recaptured, probably by Space Marines (Who may or may not share it immediately with the IoM) who can better respect its power and not enslave it as we did in 15,000 AD, things will change pretty dramatically.

Nevermind that actually, quick check on the Lexicanum revealed that the Men of Iron hated humanity, which was why they attacked them. The IOM isn't ever going to find an untainted Men of Iron STC given that they all loathed humanity and attempted to wipe them out in the first place.

(And given the power of DAOT AI's revealed in such books as Death of Integrity, releasing a new faction on the galaxy that is self-replicating and powered by an AI that can Hollywood hack anything instant that is near it like it's a mini Void Dragon is probably a bad idea.)

False. Not all the iron men hated humanity or took arms against us. That's well known. And there is nothing tainted about the Iron Men STC, it is the individual iron men who grew, over thousands of years, mind you, to hate humans. A new-built iron man with no experiences would have no reason to hate humans. How a design is ultimately used has no impact on its blueprint... which should be obvious.

Also, you realise STCs and Iron Men are different, yes? An STC would give you all the benefits of an iron man, without any of the potiential drawbacks. That's why finding a complete STC is the ultimate goal of the mechanicus, and dozens of Space Marine chapters. Considering every human planet and fleet had multiple thousands of STCs during the DAOT, finding a functional one is just a matter of time.

Once the Mentor Legion or Mechanicus or Explorators have recovered it, it's game over for Chaos Space Marines, Tau, and Nids. Necrons will still have better tech and Orks will always be around, but CSM, Tyranids, and Tau are history.

 Silverthorne wrote:

Not all the iron men hated humanity or took arms against us. That's well known.

Source?

I thought all AI were banned because they were bound to rebel against their creators.

Please elaborate

As a Black Templars player it pains me to say it, but I feel the main selling point of the Adeptus Astartes is the fact that their Librarians are obscenely powerful while not being as unstable as Sanctioned Psykers. A single of the more powerful Psykers (say Mephiston, Tigurius or, for the lulz, Draigo) can turn a war all on his own, and that sort of power just isn't possible for the Imperium to reproduce at will. I realize that there's a bunch of horrifically powerful A++ psykers out there that aren't Astartes, but like a light bulb on too much power they tend to burn out rather quickly.

 Silverthorne wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
I've thought about that, and I don't agree. Scrapcode only affects where it was deployed, primarily Mars (most damagingly). It's not some pervasive force through the galaxy, like Chaos in general is. It's a specific weapon that is contained. That's why the average guardsman isn't too worried about scrap code in the main targetting computer of his Rus, or whatever.

Find and Iron Man or STC from an abandoned outer world, like on the Eastern Fringe or beyond the Ghoul Stars and it would have never been affected by the scrapcode, which was deployed centuries later and light years away. Given the logarithmic learning ability of either an STC or an Iron Man (and their ability to create each other) eventually it would be possible to eliminate scrapcode using their essentially infinite computational and design power. These machines are almost unthinkably powerful. Once one is recaptured, probably by Space Marines (Who may or may not share it immediately with the IoM) who can better respect its power and not enslave it as we did in 15,000 AD, things will change pretty dramatically.

Nevermind that actually, quick check on the Lexicanum revealed that the Men of Iron hated humanity, which was why they attacked them. The IOM isn't ever going to find an untainted Men of Iron STC given that they all loathed humanity and attempted to wipe them out in the first place.

(And given the power of DAOT AI's revealed in such books as Death of Integrity, releasing a new faction on the galaxy that is self-replicating and powered by an AI that can Hollywood hack anything instant that is near it like it's a mini Void Dragon is probably a bad idea.)

False. Not all the iron men hated humanity or took arms against us. That's well known. And there is nothing tainted about the Iron Men STC, it is the individual iron men who grew, over thousands of years, mind you, to hate humans. A new-built iron man with no experiences would have no reason to hate humans. How a design is ultimately used has no impact on its blueprint... which should be obvious.

Also, you realise STCs and Iron Men are different, yes? An STC would give you all the benefits of an iron man, without any of the potiential drawbacks. That's why finding a complete STC is the ultimate goal of the mechanicus, and dozens of Space Marine chapters. Considering every human planet and fleet had multiple thousands of STCs during the DAOT, finding a functional one is just a matter of time.

Once the Mentor Legion or Mechanicus or Explorators have recovered it, it's game over for Chaos Space Marines, Tau, and Nids. Necrons will still have better tech and Orks will always be around, but CSM, Tyranids, and Tau are history.

What?

The Tyranids outnumber everyone in the galaxy by a big margin, with Hive Fleet Leviathan in all of it's apocalyptic fury being at most, a tiny portion of the whole.

Much like how the awakened Necrons are only the tip of the Iceberg, the galaxy ain't seen nothing yet as far as the Tyranids are concerned.

Everyone who cares believes that if the galaxy isn't united under some cause that the Tyranids are going to sweep away this galaxy like the last thousand or so (sometimes it's just a dozen, other times it's "thousands", a swam that has stripped "thousands" of galaxies seems more in keeping with the theme that these are the end of days, so I prefer that interpretation) in an endless, ever adapting, and perfectly united tide of teeth and claws.

The main mass of Tyranids scared Szarekh to death when he encountered them, and Szarekh went through the whole of the war in heaven in all of it's solar system crushing, galaxy disrupting, warp fouling madness that made the Horus Heresy look like a slap fight between five year olds.

For the Imperium to survive it'd need the Emperor and the lost Primarchs to come back, complete and pure STCs to be found, an end to the Imperium and Craftworld Eldar's slapfights so the two can actually focus on the important enemies, and then shifting the whole of the Imperium to a total war footing.

And even then the chances of survival are merely desperate rather than "go down in a blaze of glory."

 Silverthorne wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
I've thought about that, and I don't agree. Scrapcode only affects where it was deployed, primarily Mars (most damagingly). It's not some pervasive force through the galaxy, like Chaos in general is. It's a specific weapon that is contained. That's why the average guardsman isn't too worried about scrap code in the main targetting computer of his Rus, or whatever.

Find and Iron Man or STC from an abandoned outer world, like on the Eastern Fringe or beyond the Ghoul Stars and it would have never been affected by the scrapcode, which was deployed centuries later and light years away. Given the logarithmic learning ability of either an STC or an Iron Man (and their ability to create each other) eventually it would be possible to eliminate scrapcode using their essentially infinite computational and design power. These machines are almost unthinkably powerful. Once one is recaptured, probably by Space Marines (Who may or may not share it immediately with the IoM) who can better respect its power and not enslave it as we did in 15,000 AD, things will change pretty dramatically.

Nevermind that actually, quick check on the Lexicanum revealed that the Men of Iron hated humanity, which was why they attacked them. The IOM isn't ever going to find an untainted Men of Iron STC given that they all loathed humanity and attempted to wipe them out in the first place.

(And given the power of DAOT AI's revealed in such books as Death of Integrity, releasing a new faction on the galaxy that is self-replicating and powered by an AI that can Hollywood hack anything instant that is near it like it's a mini Void Dragon is probably a bad idea.)

False. Not all the iron men hated humanity or took arms against us. That's well known. And there is nothing tainted about the Iron Men STC, it is the individual iron men who grew, over thousands of years, mind you, to hate humans. A new-built iron man with no experiences would have no reason to hate humans. How a design is ultimately used has no impact on its blueprint... which should be obvious.

Also, you realise STCs and Iron Men are different, yes? An STC would give you all the benefits of an iron man, without any of the potiential drawbacks. That's why finding a complete STC is the ultimate goal of the mechanicus, and dozens of Space Marine chapters. Considering every human planet and fleet had multiple thousands of STCs during the DAOT, finding a functional one is just a matter of time.

Once the Mentor Legion or Mechanicus or Explorators have recovered it, it's game over for Chaos Space Marines, Tau, and Nids. Necrons will still have better tech and Orks will always be around, but CSM, Tyranids, and Tau are history.

There were plenty of STCs, not all of which were universe-changing. The comparatively humble Rhino is an example. A new find like that, while certainly welcome, would not be enough to make any real difference.

In addition, if we are talking about the greater STCs, it is doubtful that it would end the CSM (They have a very safe place to retreat to if necessary, and not even godmode STCs will save you in the Warp) or the Tyranids (Who, if they are as numerous as it is implied, will wreck the Imperium, godmode STC or no) but the Tau will definitely have major problems.

Edit: What Kain said.

The Imperium's problems are not just limited to the big four (Chaos, Tyranids, Necrons, Orks) but also new and potent xenos are crawling out of the woodworks like sharks who smell blood, while xenos who used to either be kept in check are now getting bolder and more aggressive.

The first is exemplified by things like the Tau, Rak'Gol, Slaugth, and Qu'orl, while the latter is typified by the likes of the Fra'al, Thyrrus, and Hrud.

Minor xenos empires are springing up and carving out chunks of the Imperium as they start their own expansions and for each one the Imperium can crush, it seems that another gets into a position where it can enjoy a state of "not worth it" like the Tau.

And they won't stop coming.