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And after a hundreds of years fighting, thousands of battles, hundreds of campaigns and warfare in almost every role in marine structure, you would not understand logistics and grand strategy. Not likely, fleet based chapters will know that deeper than anyone like the high marshal of black templers.

They coordinate supplies, crusades, fleets, and 5 times as many as most chapters to boot.

jhe90 wrote:
And after a hundreds of years fighting, thousands of battles, hundreds of campaigns and warfare in almost every role in marine structure, you would not understand logistics and grand strategy. Not likely, fleet based chapters will know that deeper than anyone like the high marshal of black templers.

They coordinate supplies, crusades, fleets, and 5 times as many as most chapters to boot.

What would a Spacemarine Captain, who has lead at most a company of men into battle, understand of the requirements of leading an entire division, a corps or even an army? Spacemarines are good at what they do but appart from a few special cases i would rather take a human admiral/general, who both can reach several centuries of age in the setting, than a gene enhanced manchild who knows nothing about normal humans and generaly leads forces which are usualy assigned to junior/ field officers.

True a captain only has 100 to worry about, a chapter master at most 5000, highly independent.

However, they oversee own production, recruitment, they oversee all logistics on home planets. Such will surely teach you the demands of a Arny at war, campaigns will show the nescitey of good supplies and supoirt.

They may not supply corps, divushions, however will not be blind to the fact waging war on such scales requires huge rescources. + theres a entire adaptus devoted to that issue of supply, arming great armies and drawing regiments needed. With departments for seige, and other aspects if war.

True a juiner officer would lead, but which captain you want, veteran of hundreds of battles or a youngish officer yet to have seen maybe a campaign?

GK has something IG doesn't.

Force concentration.

It doesn't matter if you would have sent untold tides of Bullgryns at Daemon Angron, he would just have nommed them all, ten by ten. He is a Daemon. He never tires.

If you had PA Ogryns with psychic powers, sure. And that were incorruptible as well.

But you don't.

The same goes for Marines, in another way.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
GK has something IG doesn't.

Force concentration.

It doesn't matter if you would have sent untold tides of Bullgryns at Daemon Angron, he would just have nommed them all, ten by ten. He is a Daemon. He never tires.

If you had PA Ogryns with psychic powers, sure. And that were incorruptible as well.

But you don't.

The same goes for Marines, in another way.

That too. People often quote that a Space Marine is worth 12 Guardsmen but 12 Guardsmen cannot do everything Space Marines can. Certain operations need heavily armored, armed and elite infantry to go in and wreck gak.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
GK has something IG doesn't.

Force concentration.

It doesn't matter if you would have sent untold tides of Bullgryns at Daemon Angron, he would just have nommed them all, ten by ten. He is a Daemon. He never tires.

If you had PA Ogryns with psychic powers, sure. And that were incorruptible as well.

But you don't.

The same goes for Marines, in another way.

Nuke him from orbit.

In the fluff, isn't it said that most guardsmen have never seen a marine, or even doubt their existence? There is also the numbers involved, only a hundred billion or so to one. I mean, it's cheaper to grow a human to maturity then it is to produce a lasgun. There is also the massive diversity of the guard. Name a job? They have a billion men to do it.

In regards to the logistics, I was under the impression that chapter serfs were in charge of that? Can't really see a marine steering a battle barge, his fingers are too big for the buttons. Not to mention the exponential increase in difficulty as you increase the number of people you have to supply. It's not twice as hard to keep 2'000 men supplied then 1'000, it's far more difficult.

Just my thoughts.

So no, the Imperium would not fall apart that much faster then it is already if the Marines were to up and go. Human ingenuity will continue.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
GK has something IG doesn't.

Force concentration.

It doesn't matter if you would have sent untold tides of Bullgryns at Daemon Angron, he would just have nommed them all, ten by ten. He is a Daemon. He never tires.

If you had PA Ogryns with psychic powers, sure. And that were incorruptible as well.

But you don't.

What about two or three Titan Imperator ? Would that do nicely ? They can just step on Angron and his bloodthirsters, if they need to flatten them, you know.

The Imperium would have long ago crumbled without the Marines, it would crumble quickly without them, especially if we're assuming they spontaneously turn outright hostile.
Chapter Master Agnanthio rallying 50 Chapter Masters and arriving at Terra was enough to put the fear of the Emperor in the squabbling High Lords. Hundreds could destroy the mind of the Imperium and leave the body to fester, or bring about the Chaotic apocalypse.

As long as the Imperial Navy rules, the Imperium will reign.

I feel like singing British Gentleman modified to proper Imperium format...

To fight such forces such as a full deamon prince, greater deamons and such you may need to bring in a full psi titan, and a grey knight can rarely control a dreadknights, a human stands less chance to none minus augmented strength.

Killing them requires pretty specialised weapons, well with any effectiveness

Losing they grey knights is a massive capability gap, how many humans can take on full on deamons in close combat, and live/not be corrupted?

The Grey Knights work alongside humans for the missions more often than not, do not forget. The gap isn't that great, take the same logistical requirements in training/equipping the GK and put it into humans and you'll achieve the same overall effectiveness with more bodies and less force concentration. I agree the GKs are a more useful addition than the Space Marines, but still not necessary for survival.

The Imperium would be just fine, if not better, without the terribly uneffecient arm that is the Adeptus Astartes. If humans have proven anythign in their nature, it is that they can adapt quickly and find a new source of inspiritaiton when one is lost.

I think the question itself is wrong.

The Imperium is not holding together. This is the End of Times. It is all falling apart. We are told so here and there in the background.

True things ain't golden age, but they could get worse, now history reverses,s they still own cadia, 13th crusade not yet happened. Doo. Tickwd back a notch

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
The Imperium would be just fine, if not better, without the terribly uneffecient arm that is the Adeptus Astartes. If humans have proven anythign in their nature, it is that they can adapt quickly and find a new source of inspiritaiton when one is lost.

Has the fluff ever explicitly stated the production of Astartes was terribly inefficient? Or is that just speculation/extrapolation based on guess work for something where the exact numbers of the costs and benefits has never been given to us, the fans? Speculation which IMHO is futile given that technology, costs, and benefits in the 40th millennium are probably significantly different from the 20th century.

I'd think that if the astartes really were arguably a waste for the benefit they give, it'd have been brought up in a novel or codex or white dwarf article or fluff source SOMEWHERE. As far as I'm aware, there has never even been an in-universe case of Imperial citzens or even biased Chaos followers or Xenos debating, arguing, or thinking that marines were overcosted (as opposed to say, Titans, where the Tau felt Titans are an impractical waste of resources in-universe)

Doesn't matter one way or the other, the IoM is dying. SM have made no change in that, it is like all the SM fighting has been ponitless anyways. The IoM falls anyways, In fact if there was never SM in the first place the IoM would be better off.

Would there be an IoM in the first place if there weren't any SM?

Yea, the Emperor wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed sometimes (albeit mainly thanks to bad writing) but presumably if he could have conquered the galaxy better without spending all that time and resources on primarchs and space marines (and perhaps even having to make a deal with Chaos to make the primarchs...), he would have done so with normal humans. (unless he wanted the Horus Heresy to happen, of course)

The Astartes are often the most effective force against a variety of threats and not having that resource both in terms o actual ability and the sheer morale boosting of the Emperors chosen would be devestating, the Imperiukm could likely lurch no but if all the various threats remain intact then the end is much more likley and swifter in coming.

Plus: The Orks would be really fething anooyed that the Marines are not there to fight and take helmets from.......

re Logistics - very many Astartes undertstand this all too well - after all it is often their specfic task to destroy and disrupt these systems...............

TiamatRoar wrote:
Would there be an IoM in the first place if there weren't any SM?

Yea, the Emperor wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed sometimes (albeit mainly thanks to bad writing) but presumably if he could have conquered the galaxy better without spending all that time and resources on primarchs and space marines (and perhaps even having to make a deal with Chaos to make the primarchs...), he would have done so with normal humans. (unless he wanted the Horus Heresy to happen, of course)

You forgot the rest of the story and what happened to the Primarchs. The IoM was formed before he found his lost sons, it only then were they give their command, long after the base of the IoM was laid out. Not the other way around, nice try thou.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Would there be an IoM in the first place if there weren't any SM?

Yea, the Emperor wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed sometimes (albeit mainly thanks to bad writing) but presumably if he could have conquered the galaxy better without spending all that time and resources on primarchs and space marines (and perhaps even having to make a deal with Chaos to make the primarchs...), he would have done so with normal humans. (unless he wanted the Horus Heresy to happen, of course)

A few million super soldiers and a few thousand ships is not equal to quadrillions of men and billions of vessels with better mechanized elements.

Simple numbers means that the Space Marines are about as useful as a mustache on a car on the macro-scale.

I could defeat every space marine chapter by using the guard to roll over them like a tsunami; without firing a single shot. Just dog pile on them until they're crushed under the weight of the most important defenders of the Imperium.

Noir wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
Would there be an IoM in the first place if there weren't any SM?

Yea, the Emperor wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed sometimes (albeit mainly thanks to bad writing) but presumably if he could have conquered the galaxy better without spending all that time and resources on primarchs and space marines (and perhaps even having to make a deal with Chaos to make the primarchs...), he would have done so with normal humans. (unless he wanted the Horus Heresy to happen, of course)

You forgot the rest of the story and what happened to the Primarchs. The IoM was formed before he found his lost sons, it only then were they give their command, long after the base of the IoM was laid out. Not the other way around, nice try thou.

Emps had space marines before he had fully grown primarchs, not the other way around, remember? Nice try though.

This thread is very interesting.

I feel that the sheer amount of humans at the IoM's disposal, with its grand navy and logistical capabilities, that it would be okay, but slightly worse off without marines. Even in the grandest battles of the modern setting, marines are only there for special ops or in insignificant numbers that another few platoons couldn't compensate for. The special ops thing is really their main use in my opinion, but even that could be countered with specially trained/augmented humans (marines lite, so to speak).

I don't know, there are a ton of different ways to look at it. Either way, we already know the IoM is falling apart, it doesn't matter if marines are around or not, it is inevitable.

I like what was mentioned earlier, how if marines went rogue from the Imperium, that the Ultramar system would become a powerful empire in its own right, perhaps even a direct threat to the Imperium itself, since it's better organized and healthier.

 PrehistoricUFO wrote:
This thread is very interesting.

I feel that the sheer amount of humans at the IoM's disposal, with its grand navy and logistical capabilities, that it would be okay, but slightly worse off without marines. Even in the grandest battles of the modern setting, marines are only there for special ops or in insignificant numbers that another few platoons couldn't compensate for. The special ops thing is really their main use in my opinion, but even that could be countered with specially trained/augmented humans (marines lite, so to speak).

I don't know, there are a ton of different ways to look at it. Either way, we already know the IoM is falling apart, it doesn't matter if marines are around or not, it is inevitable.

I like what was mentioned earlier, how if marines went rogue from the Imperium, that the Ultramar system would become a powerful empire in its own right, perhaps even a direct threat to the Imperium itself, since it's better organized and healthier.

A nation of eight systems does not threaten an empire of millions of systems when they both work from the same tech-base.

 PrehistoricUFO wrote:

I like what was mentioned earlier, how if marines went rogue from the Imperium, that the Ultramar system would become a powerful empire in its own right, perhaps even a direct threat to the Imperium itself, since it's better organized and healthier.

Tangent: Come to think about it, an Ultramar that's cut off from the Imperium would still be screwed to hell if the Golden Throne gets destroyed. In a situation where the Imperium's life (and thus the Golden Throne) is at stake, t's really unlikely that any one who relies on the Astronomicon for warp travel would be able to consciously withdraw from the Imperium, as contributing to the Imperium's death would be akin to contributing to your own death.

(this logic wouldn't apply to one who believes the Golden Throne will continue to survive even if they do secede, of course. But with the Imperium more and more on the brink, more and more people would have to stop to consider that)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:

A few million super soldiers and a few thousand ships is not equal to quadrillions of men and billions of vessels with better mechanized elements.

Simple numbers means that the Space Marines are about as useful as a mustache on a car on the macro-scale.

I could defeat every space marine chapter by using the guard to roll over them like a tsunami; without firing a single shot. Just dog pile on them until they're crushed under the weight of the most important defenders of the Imperium.

Even if that were logically true, it doesn't mean it's canonically true ("canon" in this case being the fluff or novels taking that logic into consideration)

I don't recall it ever being mentioned in any novel or codex that the Great Crusade didn't need the Space Marines or that they were insignificant in their contributions to it. Only thing ever really touching on the issue are statements that are akin to Emps himself believing that he needed the Space Marines to do it, and maaaaybe Roboute's statement that he'd make due in a situation with 10 army troopers per space marine if no marines were available (but again, that would require extrapolation and deduction on our part rather than an explicit fluff statement) and no one in-universe explicitly challenging that belief.

Again, if it really was remotely the case in fluff or even arguable, why has no one in any novel or fluff ever mentioned the idea that marines weren't worth the cost or were unnecessary?

Yeah, I'm not smart.

The Astronomicon is barely visible, if at all, from the Eastern Fringe, which is where Ultramar is found. It would probably not be able to project force to, say, the Obscurus Sector (not easily or rapidly, anyway), but for local defense Ultramar would be fine.

A lack of Space Marines would not equal a lack of heavily armoured, elite soldiers. Partly because the majority of Marines are Warriors, not Soldiers. They concentrate on individual power and prowess, rather than working together.

Even without discussing the professionalism of the Marines, without them there are still the Sorororitas, who can fill any role the Astartes can. Of course, they suffer the same logistical problems as the Marines, if not more so, but if Angron was rampaging on Armageddon and there were no Grey Knights to summon? The Sororitas would do in a pinch. Faith has been shown to be an even more powerful weapon against daemonkind than witchery over and over, after all.

Marines only represent the secular power of the Imperium. Without them as a factor, you can bet your bolter that the Ecclesiarchy would have a much freer reign on recruitment. I expect that Sororitas production would increase massively without the Marines providing that comfortable bulwark against the obscene that lets the Administratum continue to limit Sororitas recruitment and the power of the Ecclesiarchy.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
A lack of Space Marines would not equal a lack of heavily armoured, elite soldiers. Partly because the majority of Marines are Warriors, not Soldiers. They concentrate on individual power and prowess, rather than working together.

Even without discussing the professionalism of the Marines, without them there are still the Sorororitas, who can fill any role the Astartes can. Of course, they suffer the same logistical problems as the Marines, if not more so, but if Angron was rampaging on Armageddon and there were no Grey Knights to summon? The Sororitas would do in a pinch. Faith has been shown to be an even more powerful weapon against daemonkind than witchery over and over, after all.

Marines only represent the secular power of the Imperium. Without them as a factor, you can bet your bolter that the Ecclesiarchy would have a much freer reign on recruitment. I expect that Sororitas production would increase massively without the Marines providing that comfortable bulwark against the obscene that lets the Administratum continue to limit Sororitas recruitment and the power of the Ecclesiarchy.

And the AdMech would also likely step up the recruitment and advancement of it's own military complete with it's own goodies. If there are no more marines to make power armor for; they can just make powered ceramite and adamantium suits for their more elite skitarii.

No genehancements? No problem, the flesh is weak anyway, besides; do space marine implants give you master crafted plasma cannons for hands? No? Thought so..

So you'd see the AdMech and Sorirtas largely supplanting the Marines.

Of course, redundancy in design is always good, so neither the AdMech nor the Sororitas actually want the Marines to vanish.

The AdMech would sure appreciate some more forge worlds, though, guys.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Of course, redundancy in design is always good, so neither the AdMech nor the Sororitas actually want the Marines to vanish.

The AdMech would sure appreciate some more forge worlds, though, guys.

Not to mention that it'd be heresy to want the Emperor's holy Angels of Death to vanish, eh?

Warriors so divine so they do not even worship the Emperor himself (Though they of course greatly revere and serve him)