That "15-20%" price increase wasn't a universal price increase, it wildly varied from product to product.
Beyond that "hate" is a strong word and I don't feel it applies in most people's cases. And you're thread lacks a "I don't hate GW" option.
I am sometimes very disappointing in things GW does, but I'm rarely mad, and I've yet to "hate" them for anything. When the time comes that I become so dissatisfied with them that I can't stand them anymore I'll just go find a new hobby instead.
Missed opportunity to list "The 2013 December to Remember Event".
That would have covered the start of datadumps, $18 single character rules, Escalation, Stronghold, Formations and the general nonsense that we have now.
I assume hate is the internet slang for frustrated/dissatisfied with the current state of affairs.
Obviously, there's a barrier anyone may cross where they take their ball to go home. But the "loud complainers" are the ones who still care a great deal and want to enjoy themselves; just their ability has been greatly hindered.
Hence, I'd say choose the one that made you a bit sour on the circumstances.
"Hate" is a very strong word. "Disillusioned" is better one.
Several factors, but the straw that broke the camel's back for me was Finecrap, accompanied in the same year with the embargo (IIRC), my local hiring a twatbag of a staffer which forced me out.
Came back briefly, but it wasn't the same. Something had properly shifted in my downtime. 6th edition was a hippy dippy all over the place pile of crap that is incredibly schizophrenic as to its identity. I tried to give it a chance. I was prepared to put up with its flaws as the store now had some decent staff, but nope. Still gak.
Loads and loads of minor things they've done also to earn my ire, such as the whole "Spots the Space Marine" debacle and their general attitude.
So, since 6th hit I've gone in with Warmahordes full time.
I don't hate GW so I didn't vote.
Do I think they make horribly stupid mistakes? Absolutely.
The Chaos Dex was a cornucopia of missed opportunities.
The Nid dex was a copy+paste job with a lot of units removed without anything in return except massive and unecessary nerfs.
Khorne dozer and Taurox, horrible.
But they do a lot of stuff I like and I enjoy the game and the fluff.
This wasn't an option on the poll, but for me it was when they stopped bitz sales, and when they gave up on Specialist Games. For me it's been downhill since.
Been with GW for 26 years, so it's hard to quit them cold turkey. If it was not for the nostalgia and my GW fluff fandom, I'd walk away from them because of what they have become.
I don't hate/dislike GW, and likely won't unless they squat the Sisters.
At the moment though I'm mostly sitting on the sidelines hoping they can pull out of what appears to be a terminal tailspin of bad ideas - Finecast, the slide into Epic 28mm, ludicrous ally rules and one unit codexes come to mind - before they damage 40K beyond repair.
I don't 'hate' GW, I'm just very disappointed in them.
But seriously, mostly I'm just frustrated that I look at PP- their interaction with their customers, their forums, the clarity of rules, tournament support and a few other things- and think 'there is no reason GW can't do that'. The 40K setting is far and away the best IP out there but it's shacked to sup par almost everything else. When other companies showed how it could be done, that's when my feelings for GW shifted.
Plywood_Slayer wrote: This wasn't an option on the poll, but for me it was when they stopped bitz sales, and when they gave up on Specialist Games. For me it's been downhill since.
Been with GW for 26 years, so it's hard to quit them cold turkey. If it was not for the nostalgia and my GW fluff fandom, I'd walk away from them because of what they have become.
of course it wasn't an option, because those are pretty obscure complaints... and valid ones...
ashcroft wrote: I don't hate/dislike GW, and likely won't unless they squat the Sisters.
At the moment though I'm mostly sitting on the sidelines hoping they can pull out of what appears to be a terminal tailspin of bad ideas - Finecast, the slide into Epic 28mm, ludicrous ally rules and one unit codexes come to mind - before they damage 40K beyond repair.
True, if they squat Sisters, I'm moving on to Warmachine and Infinity.
GW died to me as a modelling company with the release of Finecast. I've always loved metal miniatures and painting them is a joy. Painting plastics is not nearly the same.
With the release of 6th edition 40K, GW died as a gaming company. I'm hesitant to even call this product a game now. It somehow gets worse monthly, going from flyers, Tau/Eldar allies, dataslates, Escalation, dropping of units from codices, to no FAQ's and errata (!). Every time I think GW has hit rock bottom, they break out another drill and dig deeper. Eventually, they'll hit earth's core and melt away.
I am not hating GW, but I am convinced that a bunch of incompetent GW managers with no common sense and no idea of the gaming industry are ruining the creativity AND the economic outlook of the company, with the decomposition accelerating and escalating for about a year now.
-DE- wrote: GW died to me as a modelling company with the release of Finecast. I've always loved metal miniatures and painting them is a joy. Painting plastics is not nearly the same.
With the release of 6th edition 40K, GW died as a gaming company. I'm hesitant to even call this product a game now. It somehow gets worse monthly, going from flyers, Tau/Eldar allies, dataslates, Escalation, dropping of units from codices, to no FAQ's and errata (!). Every time I think GW has hit rock bottom, they break out another drill and dig deeper. Eventually, they'll hit earth's core and melt away.
I like many of the models
I find many of the rules reasonably sensible / playable. If I remove the expectation for the game to make sense in reality, then it's actually quite fun.
What I'm finding frustrating is the fact that rules are written, sold to us at a high price and then a FAQ is done.
What I'm finding additionally frustrating is the idea that GW may be selling a 'new' rule book very soon - that is essentially the 6th Ed. with the FAQs in. Why should we have to pay yet more to replace their original mistakes? They sold us a faulty good in my eyes and should replace the 6th Ed. books free of charge. Sifting between FAQs, Rulebooks and Codices for the correct version of the rules is frustrating. To now be expected to buy another £60 rule book that is apparently correct this time around sticks in my throat. What's the bet that the proposed new BRB is correct this time around?
Secondly, the death of much of the fluff / potential for fluff abuse is... well, disappointing. By this I refer to the Rogue Trader style rules where anything goes. Dataslates and Allies allowing for a pick-n-mix power gamers delight at the expense of theme and story. Tau Firebase Support Cadre with Adeptus Astartes Storm Wings, Inquisitorial Detachments and other cheese all in one FOC... bleh. Let's throw some Imperial Knights at it.
I started a year ago. Before that was 2nd edt when i was a kid..
I quickly realised my local was bad. Small tables, no gaming days, no prizes for painting days and spending loadsa money.
I then joined Dakka and learned my suspisions were correct. GW doesn't care about about me.
The Nid codex was enough for me to be able to claim they're either lazy or just rubbish. I didn't want ott stuff, i wanted fun and fluffy.
I always buy my music and support the artists but with GW i do the opposite. Listening GW?
I don't hate GW, but I am honestly very disappointed by the new website launch due to:
1. Having to re-register my account.
While not heinous, what happens to orders that were being processed during the downtime? Now I have no digital record of my own, and am forced to hope that GW backed-up all the relevant info on their end in case something goes wrong. (note: I always print off my own paper hard copies, but it still needs to exist in the their system!)
2. Missing FAQ's & Erratas.
Now the only way a game's going to go smoothly is for me to pray my opponent isn't going to be a huge donkey cave. Gee, thanks!
I can imagine tournaments for the very near future decending into nothing more than an exercise in who can be the biggest rules-abusing douche bag. Welcome to the new Cockhammer 40k, the grim dark game of who's the biggest @$$hat!
Basically, without those FAQ's & Erratas, it's now much harder for new players - especially if they pick-up an army that hasn't been updated to 6th edition yet, while also making it harder to get in pick-up games due to the niggling feeling of, "will/will not my opponent now take advantage of the sheer silliness of the system?!"
In all seriousnes, there is missing vote for "I didnt start to dislike the firm". Yeah, even such people exist. Its just company and no, its still not killing babies and puppies despite of internet warriors claims.
Jesus, do something useful than another thread "Look at me, I dont like GW too and I made a poll about it! Bros forevah?"
This new site did it for me. Write me up for the official GW Hate Club™.
(it is not really hate, but more a dislike for several price-related reasons. There are still plenty of reasons for which I like GW, but they are so blatantly ripping you off it is not fun anymore.) Maybe I should start Dystopian Wars?
TheKbob wrote: Missed opportunity to list "The 2013 December to Remember Event".
That would have covered the start of datadumps, $18 single character rules, Escalation, Stronghold, Formations and the general nonsense that we have now.
This, pretty much.
I became disillusioned with GW the moment they went on this "DLC" craze.
Seems like the usual BS moaning topic to be honest.
Yes, GW prices are high.
Yes, finecast was for the most part, a complete fail
And yes, white dwarf turned into a glorified sales mag.
I still like GW though.
While its changed alot, its still my favorite wargame and something i can see me playing in years to come.
True, they have introduced alot of stuff recently, but games have to move forward.
Things become stale if they stay the same for too long, so new ideas help out.
TheKbob wrote: Missed opportunity to list "The 2013 December to Remember Event".
That would have covered the start of datadumps, $18 single character rules, Escalation, Stronghold, Formations and the general nonsense that we have now.
This, pretty much.
I became disillusioned with GW the moment they went on this "DLC" craze.
Even though it was just an extension of their old 'DLC' craze which existed before the term DLC even existed, right?
After all, we've been buying white dwarf for one unit worth of rules for 15 years now. Did the price increase with digital? Sure. Did the availability after the rules have been out for a month increase with digital? Yep.
All of the above! Every single thing gets my goat! The prices on some of our plastic drugs are preposterous! On the other hand... I like the Taurox model. I hate the name though. (Tau Rocks? Really GW?)
I can see having a point on the poll for "I never disliked them" but the posts of "Oh, look, another whine thread!" are not proactive to a discussion you could have easily never opened and inflammatory in nature.
Someone else posted it in another thread, but look up "Customer Dissatisfaction". A great majority of those folks who are unhappy with a company will never voice it, they will simply leave. If there is a strong sense of dissatisfaction being vocalized, it's a good bet that the actual dissatisfaction is much farther spread. Not everyone hits forums.
It's equally true that happy customers don't complain. Which is why having that data point on the chart would be meaningful. I would bet that data supports that the unhappy crowd is a quickly growing lot.
As a modeler first it was when the Landraider broke the $50 dollar mark and then the closing of the bits orders. It was at that point I realized that GW was more interested in the dollar than the value if the product. Add to it that their codexs have always been an editing nightmare, but when they want that level of money for such a flawed product it's almost insulting.
The thing is, I'm not poor. I could easily actually afford to buy their stuff, but I won't because there is just not equal value of product vs dollar.
Can we stop with the 'oh look a whine thread' crap please?
The vast majority of the posts here that aren't complaining about the existence of this thread are legitimate complaints about the company and people should be allowed to discuss that.
There are on average of 10 or so "I hate GW" threads every single day on here.
So this is nothing different or new.
Not to mention countless comments on various threads about issues with them.
By now i think people get the point without needing yet another thread about it.
So, we are allowed a ton of these threads, but the second someone says about it then it raises an issue?
I didn't vote as I don't hate GW. They do make many decisions which baffle me and I cannot fathom their bunker mentality but that could just be Kirby with his fondness of fortress and moat analogies.
I still love 40K though so, it's hard to hate GW even though they can be a bit daft.
jono - You might want to re-read my origional post then.
Just because i didnt pick an option from above does not mean i cant have an opinion.
Infact, "not hating GW" seems to be in the lead by the seems of it.
Jackal wrote: There are on average of 10 or so "I hate GW" threads every single day on here.
So this is nothing different or new.
Not to mention countless comments on various threads about issues with them.
By now i think people get the point without needing yet another thread about it.
So, we are allowed a ton of these threads, but the second someone says about it then it raises an issue?
I already outlined the deficiency in this post, but also the deficiency of your argument against said posts.
Complaining is healthy. A feedback loop of "everything's A-okay, nothing wrong here!" is not. No one is flying off the handle or rage posting, so let the discussion continue.
As for cost, I can afford the game easily, too. I just see the value of the product bottoming out.
ninjafiredragon wrote: Heh I knew this thread would bring out all the non gw haters. Honestly i catn even fathom how people dont dislike gw for what thev done to the game.
Because they aren't burning puppies, kicking orphans and raping kittens?
Seriously, most of the stuff they do makes sense in the fact that they're trying to do what's best for the company's bottom line (as all companies basically do) and I've learned to accept that. I usually just end up scratching my head when they do the occasional thing that is a legitimate step backwards.
Jackal wrote: Infact, "not hating GW" seems to be in the lead by the seems of it.
While there is not an option for "I don't hate GW," there is already 220+ votes on the matter. That suggests a strong grouping of frustrated folks for that to happen in a short amount of time. A new poll with your option would be much more valid.
However, hate should be reworded to frustrated/dissappointed. Hate is still an emotion showing caring. The complete lack of caring isn't hatred. Hatred is as powerful as other emotions.
The real sign of someone who doesn't like GW is apathy. And apathetic people don't comment on the topics. That's what I have already pointed out.
Kbob - Everything isnt ok with them, i posted a few issues in my original post.
While they have alot of issues (more so in more recent times) i still find them above the line of being hated by myself.
Yes, they screw up quite often and sales tactics are about as useful as a chocolate teapot, but i still love the game and the actual models themselves are stunning to me.
It was more because there isnt an option for people who dont hate them.
Does not have to be a like option, but just something inbetween.
I don't dislike GW, they do have lots of positive aspects.
I like their IP, I like many of their models and kits, they're customer service staff are generally very nice and always resolve my issues if something is wrong with a kit.
I dislike however the way they write rules, the methodology of their releases, their pricing is getting absolutely insane, and I think their marketing is asinine.
Jackal wrote: Kbob - Everything isnt ok with them, i posted a few issues in my original post.
While they have alot of issues (more so in more recent times) i still find them above the line of being hated by myself.
Yes, they screw up quite often and sales tactics are about as useful as a chocolate teapot, but i still love the game and the actual models themselves are stunning to me.
It was more because there isnt an option for people who dont hate them.
Does not have to be a like option, but just something inbetween.
I agree fully. A complete consensus poll is better than one that begs the question.
I'm a bit more gruff as I'm in an area that doesn't play it as much. I have a lot more third party games at my doorstep and plenty of folks offering incentive to "join their fold". So as I branch out, I see more consideration from other companies. I have shook hands with the guy that wrote Infinity, I follow their studio painter on Facebook. We have a local press ganger that helps run events for PP and I follow some of their painters, too.
It feels like other companies offer a more complete package. Mike Brandt (of LVO fame) made a post late Dec or so on his blog about switching to Malifaux and the lead designer for v2.0 chimed in to pick his brain.
These are just things we don't see from GW. It makes these small misteps become amplified when we know they are the top dogs. They have the ability to leverage their massive resource base to do these things which would make them unstoppable. If GW made an outrider program like Press Gangers, I'd give a strong thought to become one.
But I'm also just upset on how I, as the gamer first, hobbiest second, am being treated. And the word for that is poorly.
To add to the topic though, GW do have one thing that pisses me off alot, and thats the limited edition stuff.
Usually its a great model/kit, but due to being limited, you have to buy it at that moment or its gone. While its great for selling the product out at a very fast rate, it actually makes them less money in the long run as they are great models and will continue to sell.
Im sure people would still be buying space hulk now if it was available still.
Edit:
Kbob - I think thats the main issue. I was raised knowing pretty much only GW. No one i know plays any other game really, so its been the only game i have played through the years.
I think the biggest piss off though is that with GW's size and fanbase, they could easily corner the market by sorting out sales issues (prices and advertising etc) Just feels like they are trying to milk a dead cow when theres a field full of live ones 100 yards away.
Im sure people would still be buying space hulk now if it was available still.
QFT Exalt that...
I really would like to buy the board game from GW and that's frustrating. And paying $250~ for a used set on eBay doesn't sound fun to me. Here's the thing, I know of several "third party vendors" who offer the full sweet of models... GW is missing out on a market.
ninjafiredragon wrote: Heh I knew this thread would bring out all the non gw haters. Honestly i catn even fathom how people dont dislike gw for what thev done to the game.
Because they aren't burning puppies, kicking orphans and raping kittens?
Seriously, most of the stuff they do makes sense in the fact that they're trying to do what's best for the company's bottom line (as all companies basically do) and I've learned to accept that. I usually just end up scratching my head when they do the occasional thing that is a legitimate step backwards.
Such as....
The Battle Brother broken combos?
When rulebooks got crazy price increase just because of hardback?
When they overpowered Codexes making broken and dumb deathstars no one likes to go up against?
When the said f**k to balanced 40k and released escalation and stronghold assualt?
With 50$ supplements with one page of rules?
XT-1984 wrote: I remember when a box of Berzerkers was £10. So I've been there for all the hikes, the change to finecast and the fall of white dwarf.
Nothing disappointed me as much as when they took their facebook page down. Perhaps I need to get out more.
yes you do. prices go up, it's an economic fact.
While you are correct that price hikes are inevitable, you could have been a bit more polite about it.
Also, I am curious how much the price has increased on Berzerkers vs. inflation/changes to the kit. We'd need more info. about the case at hand.
A lot more info as you'd also have to factor in increased insurance costs, wage rates, benefit packages (which cost the company), new equipment (which these price hikes help pay for), pretty much everything to do with the sales branch (and the mess that it is sometimes. I'm still pretty sure the stores themselves cost more than they bring in at this point), taxes, and probably half a dozen other things we don't even know about.
Yes inflation is a decent measure but it's hardly the sole influence on why something goes up in price.
The limited runs that GW do are flawless.
And the price of space hulk for what you got was even better.
They could have made a fortune from this, but instead decided to try and make quick money on a limited release.
If it was me, i would have released it normally then been putting out expansions with more models, rules and scenarios once i saw how well it sold.
Thats what people want.
Edit: XT-1984 - Dont need to get out more, you have a good point.
That was possible the best connection GW had with fans.
That sounds fan-freakin'-tastic. Space Hulk expansions? Different load outs, maybe chapter tactics? Boss encounters, leveling up, relics discovered... Man, you could grow that into it's own little narrative forging event. If they want to make the game more D&D, make Space Hulk into that D&D thing ("Tomb of Many Horrors", I think?) that's a singular campaign that's stupid hard but very rewarding.
I'd buy that so hard. You make me sad that it doesn't exist. :(
viewfinder wrote:
yes you do. prices go up, it's an economic fact.
Hey, guess what? When other companies re-release metal models into plastic/resin, they DROP the price! That's an economic fact... cheaper material + passing on savings to the customer = makes you look like a rockstar and you maintain previous margins on the product that's cheaper to make, ship, and stock. Win, win! Someone should teach GW that...
Broken combo's - Lash oblit existed before allies, there were always broken combo's in the game.
Increase on books - They should have had an option of either to be honest, but i do prefer the hardback since its lasted alot longer than a soft cover. Should still have the option of buying either though.
Codex creep - Each book is more in keeping with current rules, so the newer the book the stronger it tends to be anyway as its more suited for the edition at the time.
40k/apoc - I agree here, creeping escalation into 40k is a bad move and should have stayed a separate thing altogether.
Supplements - Thats from a gamers point of view. Keep in mind alot of people only buy things like this for the fluff in them, so yes, just for rules it is bloody expensive. Is still expensive for what you get anyway though.
Turning heads - Not everyone is phased as easily as other people are. I can balance out the pro's and con's to keep myself happy playing the game at the moment. However, that one is down to each person.
Edit: Kbob - They really did miss that one. Thats one of the huge benefits that specialist games would bring to the table. They only need 2-3 people as a team aswell to manage rules and ideas, so wouldnt be anywhere near a drain for what it would make.
Not a company policy and I hear about it more online than actually see it. Besides, as a non-competetive player I can choose to not play people who want to run the latest cheese nonsense. I've always got more models to paint instead.
ninjafiredragon wrote: When rulebooks got crazy price increase just because of hardback?
Hard back, full color and the paper is of a higher quality.
ninjafiredragon wrote: When they overpowered Codexes making broken and dumb deathstars no one likes to go up against?
You mean things players do that go against "the Spirit of the Game" by making choices that are only fun for them and no one else?
ninjafiredragon wrote: When the said f**k to balanced 40k and released escalation and stronghold assualt?
Only part about those books that are bad is the D-Weapon rules. Everything else is pretty balanced. FW's alternate D-weapon rules for the Heresy stuff that's rumored to exist fixes that though.
3 pages of core rules, more than a dozen pages of fluff, several pages of miniatures, new art, altar of war missions (which ARE rules) and Eternal War missions (which are ALSO rules). Oh and some of the books have had stuff for Apoc, Cities of Death and/or Planetstrike. Quit marginalizing the whole thing into an understatement that basically lies about all that's in the books.
Hardcover books are a rip-off. You can find plenty of articles on how that entire book industry uses that model to fleece people out of cash for a more expensive product with smaller cost associated with manufacturing and shipping. GW could have easily made softcover and hardcover, make the latter the collector's item, the former a gamer's item. A spiral bound softback with plastic covers holds up amazingly well. My previous sisters book was scans of the two White Dwarfs printed on the best paper Kinko's had, full color, spiral bound, and the two white dwarfs + printing was cheaper than the hardcover. And I'm not getting any sort of mass production discount.
The codecis and supplements are being reduced in value. They are containing a higher volume of pictures, which are of little to no value; see the fine repository of fine photos on this site for a wider variety of inspiration and much more talented painters. The fluff is free on 3 different wikis, it's value is marginal. Plus, fluff from Black Library is WAY cheaper.
Codecis and supplements are thus game books. That content is being diminished greatly with the latest two major books seeing more units deleted than added. On top of that, the quality of the content is dropping and not being actively supported.
So from a pure rational and logical view, the value of the recent codecis and supplements is much lower than previous editions. This without even going into the wide spread that is the pricing of digital content.
Dislike is better. Intensely dislike maybe but better than hate. Your poll should cover other options letting someone say they don't dislike GW. I dislike GW but there are many that don't. Some of the choices are to specific and leave out connected problems. Do I dislike that Tau and Eldar were overpowered compared to DA and Chaos? Yes, but is that the point that I disliked imbalance? No, I have always disliked GWs lack of balance and it is getting worse but I also dislike things like the tyranid dex for being a poor product (bland, lazy, etc) requiring the purchasing of dataslates (more money) to try to get a decent dex (that is two garbage dexes in a row).
The prices - Your choice of a few summers ago is not the only issue with prices. Better would have been more a generic statement about constant price increases, going to finecast to save money but prices increase, switching to hardcovers to increase profits further, etc.
Not a company policy and I hear about it more online than actually see it. Besides, as a non-competetive player I can choose to not play people who want to run the latest cheese nonsense. I've always got more models to paint instead.
Do you not like to go to tournaments? Because with these broken combos tourneys are really just... differnet. Also do you not see the problem in broken deathstars? I mean honestly, GW could do a few simple things that eliminate all these deathstars, but they dont. Which also brings up another point, do you not see a problem in GWs refusal to listen to there fanbase?
ninjafiredragon wrote: When rulebooks got crazy price increase just because of hardback?
Hard back, full color and the paper is of a higher quality.
Oh and you think thats worth double the price?
ninjafiredragon wrote: When they overpowered Codexes making broken and dumb deathstars no one likes to go up against?
You mean things players do that go against "the Spirit of the Game" by making choices that are only fun for them and no one else?
To some people, its fun to make the best lists you can. In most games, that "best list" isnt totally over powered and can be beat, but in 40k, if you want to win, you can. Point and click. Is it against the game to try and win? No, only 40k.
ninjafiredragon wrote: When the said f**k to balanced 40k and released escalation and stronghold assualt?
Only part about those books that are bad is the D-Weapon rules. Everything else is pretty balanced. FW's alternate D-weapon rules for the Heresy stuff that's rumored to exist fixes that though.
Ya, and its the D weapons that ruin it. Really GW? Really?
3 pages of core rules, more than a dozen pages of fluff, several pages of miniatures, new art, altar of war missions (which ARE rules) and Eternal War missions (which are ALSO rules). Oh and some of the books have had stuff for Apoc, Cities of Death and/or Planetstrike. Quit marginalizing the whole thing into an understatement that basically lies about all that's in the books.
Again, do you find thats worth 50 dollars? as much as a codex thats FULL of rules, and has the fluff? The percentage of people who buy the books for the altar of war missions, Eternal war missions, Apoc stuff, Cities of Death, and Planetstrike to the amount of people who buy it for the rules and fluff is just rediculous.
By not blowing it out of proportion or flat out lying about what's in the product?
Really? With everything you just said it seems that you find no flaws in 40k, as i just pointed out the biggest ones and you denied every bit of it. And if you honestly believe 40k to be great with no flaws or problems.... just wow.....
TheKbob wrote: Hardcover books are a rip-off. You can find plenty of articles on how that entire book industry uses that model to fleece people out of cash for a more expensive product with smaller cost associated with manufacturing and shipping. GW could have easily made softcover and hardcover, make the latter the collector's item, the former a gamer's item. A spiral bound softback with plastic covers holds up amazingly well. My previous sisters book was scans of the two White Dwarfs printed on the best paper Kinko's had, full color, spiral bound, and the two white dwarfs + printing was cheaper than the hardcover. And I'm not getting any sort of mass production discount.
The codecis and supplements are being reduced in value. They are containing a higher volume of pictures, which are of little to no value; see the fine repository of fine photos on this site for a wider variety of inspiration and much more talented painters. The fluff is free on 3 different wikis, it's value is marginal. Plus, fluff from Black Library is WAY cheaper.
Codecis and supplements are thus game books. That content is being diminished greatly with the latest two major books seeing more units deleted than added. On top of that, the quality of the content is dropping and not being actively supported.
So from a pure rational and logical view, the value of the recent codecis and supplements is much lower than previous editions. This without even going into the wide spread that is the pricing of digital content.
I'll have to agree to disagree on how much we're getting ripped off exactly because I feel the new codexes are of a pretty good quality overall at least in layout and materials used (so leaving rules aside).
Price per content is debatable because codexes have been a combined package of fluff, model images and rules for a long, long time now (at least since 2nd) so really your value of the codex varies on how much value do you place on the whole set.
ClockworkZion wrote: 'll have to agree to disagree on how much we're getting ripped off exactly because I feel the new codexes are of a pretty good quality overall at least in layout and materials used (so leaving rules aside).
Price per content is debatable because codexes have been a combined package of fluff, model images and rules for a long, long time now (at least since 2nd) so really your value of the codex varies on how much value do you place on the whole set.
There is some weight to what you value, but can we agree that the community at large has devalued things like studio photos and basic background fluff? I can read three different wikis on stuff associated with every major faction on 40k and I can browse many photo and hobby sites for models that go above and beyond that found in a codex. The codecis no longer even offer modeling tips, painting tips, or even conversions. I believe my Witchhunters Codex has Victoria Lamb's classic model of a Seraphim with dual hand flamers fighing and ork killa kan. This is an iconic model, but no where to be found in modern books.
The content has become clinical. Dry fluff which we can access anywhere, dry photos which are just stock "here is the model" and then rules.
If anything, this would be a moot point if we were given options. A cheap $10~$15 download, minimal artwork, just an ebook with rules. A softcover "players" codex for the $25-$35 range so we can spiral bind them and keep them light, and then the $50 - $100 more coffee table or "intimate" codex. I do love the new cover art and some of the actual art work involving new units. I just feel like it's not enough content to sustain the higher price point or at least give me the option to decide which book is worth that cost.
New IG comes out? Eh, I just want the rules for allies, it's not a big thing for me. New SoB physical book? I'd probably give strong consideration to the hardback AND softback. One for display, one for play.
There isn't a "right" solution, but what we have now doesn't cater to the market well. I know many players who have gone from buying every codex day one to just saying screw it and waiting for the "shareware" version.
ninjafiredragon wrote: Do you not like to go to tournaments? Because with these broken combos tourneys are really just... differnet. Also do you not see the problem in broken deathstars? I mean honestly, GW could do a few simple things that eliminate all these deathstars, but they dont. Which also brings up another point, do you not see a problem in GWs refusal to listen to there fanbase?
No, I don't play tournaments anymore because honestly I feel that I get to focused on needing to win that my enjoyment of the game is severely diminished. Deathstars have been a thing since 2nd edition, acting like they're new is frankly silly. And yes they could be fixed but I don't think it's as "easy" as you claim since some of the worst ones come from a single codex and not allies.
Double? Not so much, but more than we were paying for the old softbacks? Yes.
ninjafiredragon wrote: To some people, its fun to make the best lists you can. In most games, that "best list" isnt totally over powered and can be beat, but in 40k, if you want to win, you can. Point and click. Is it against the game to try and win? No, only 40k.
I've run into to many people who insist that they need to take their "best list" to every game, and it's usually done so they can steamroll someone else and feel better about themselves. I'm not saying there is anything wrong about bringing your best, but there is about doing so against people who aren't.
And I'm sure if I go digging into some ther popular games there are some combos that are pretty "point and click" too.
I'm not GW. I'm an unemployed college student who lives in the middle of nowhere Montana. I don't even think there is a GW in this state to be honest (or at least I don't know of one). Yes, the D-Weapons are really the only part of those books I feel is unbalanced. I didn't like the way it was implimented in Apoc, and I didn't like it in Escalation. Apart from that I feel that most of the stuff is actually reasonably balanced and could be a lot of fun.
ninjafiredragon wrote: Again, do you find thats worth 50 dollars? as much as a codex thats FULL of rules, and has the fluff? The percentage of people who buy the books for the altar of war missions, Eternal war missions, Apoc stuff, Cities of Death, and Planetstrike to the amount of people who buy it for the rules and fluff is just rediculous.
$50 Not so much. But just because you're not using certain parts of the book don't make them a less valid part of the book. That's like claiming drop pods aren't a valid part of the Space Marine codex because you don't use them in your bike army.
ninjafiredragon wrote: Really? With everything you just said it seems that you find no flaws in 40k, as i just pointed out the biggest ones and you denied every bit of it. And if you honestly believe 40k to be great with no flaws or problems.... just wow.....
Your original statement was about "issues with GW" not "issues with 40k". Those are two different things entirely. And honestly with how casually I play (namely just for fun and with Sisters mostly) a lot of the issues you've listed don't impact me personally so much. They're issues that really impact things like Nova, but frankly the game can be a lot of fun without trying to make every game into a "let's see whose list skull drags the other the best" competition that some people seem to insist the game MUST be able to do.
And that's not to say I don't want better balance. I'd love to see assault armies get more play, and less turtling for instance, as well as Repentia not be totally pants anymore, but I'm not so upset with the game that the things you've listed cause me to be unable to enjoy the game.
Now my main issues honestly have a lot more to do with how the GW board of directors is trying to keep the Iron Curtain up and has removed a lot of things that reached out to the community. I really feel the bean counters should have less control over what products come out and while I understand a price DROP is pretty much impossible I'd like to see them not raise prices for a few years if possible (to include the stealth price increases). Oh and GW should totally get FFG to make BFG using the X-Wing ruleset. I think it'd work GREAT.
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TheKbob wrote: There is some weight to what you value, but can we agree that the community at large has devalued things like studio photos and basic background fluff?
Yes. Because the only thing the community "at large" seems to value is rules. Which I feel is missing out on some of the other stuff the materials are supposed to be for.
TheKbob wrote: I can read three different wikis on stuff associated with every major faction on 40k and I can browse many photo and hobby sites for models that go above and beyond that found in a codex. The codecis no longer even offer modeling tips, painting tips, or even conversions.
That is something I miss from them too, but they were mostly out the door by the time 5th hit so I'm not blaming 6th for this one.
TheKbob wrote: I believe my Witchhunters Codex has Victoria Lamb's classic model of a Seraphim with dual hand flamers fighing and ork killa kan. This is an iconic model, but no where to be found in modern books.
To be fair Sisters haven't had a proper book for two editions now to put that model in. That said we do need more stuff like that.
TheKbob wrote: The content has become clinical. Dry fluff which we can access anywhere, dry photos which are just stock "here is the model" and then rules.
I partially blame the accelerated release schedule for that. It means less time to really sit down and try and flesh as much as you can out like you could with the older stuff. Makes me think of the saying "You have three options: it can look good, it can work right, it can be fast. You get two."
TheKbob wrote: If anything, this would be a moot point if we were given options. A cheap $10~$15 download, minimal artwork, just an ebook with rules. A softcover "players" codex for the $25-$35 range so we can spiral bind them and keep them light, and then the $50 - $100 more coffee table or "intimate" codex. I do love the new cover art and some of the actual art work involving new units. I just feel like it's not enough content to sustain the higher price point or at least give me the option to decide which book is worth that cost.
I'd say really we only need three: small digital "The Rules" version, regular digital version, hardback.
ninjafiredragon wrote: Do you not like to go to tournaments? Because with these broken combos tourneys are really just... differnet. Also do you not see the problem in broken deathstars? I mean honestly, GW could do a few simple things that eliminate all these deathstars, but they dont. Which also brings up another point, do you not see a problem in GWs refusal to listen to there fanbase?
No, I don't play tournaments anymore because honestly I feel that I get to focused on needing to win that my enjoyment of the game is severely diminished. Deathstars have been a thing since 2nd edition, acting like they're new is frankly silly. And yes they could be fixed but I don't think it's as "easy" as you claim since some of the worst ones come from a single codex and not allies.
Double? Not so much, but more than we were paying for the old softbacks? Yes.
ninjafiredragon wrote: To some people, its fun to make the best lists you can. In most games, that "best list" isnt totally over powered and can be beat, but in 40k, if you want to win, you can. Point and click. Is it against the game to try and win? No, only 40k.
I've run into to many people who insist that they need to take their "best list" to every game, and it's usually done so they can steamroll someone else and feel better about themselves. I'm not saying there is anything wrong about bringing your best, but there is about doing so against people who aren't.
And I'm sure if I go digging into some ther popular games there are some combos that are pretty "point and click" too.
I'm not GW. I'm an unemployed college student who lives in the middle of nowhere Montana. I don't even think there is a GW in this state to be honest (or at least I don't know of one). Yes, the D-Weapons are really the only part of those books I feel is unbalanced. I didn't like the way it was implimented in Apoc, and I didn't like it in Escalation. Apart from that I feel that most of the stuff is actually reasonably balanced and could be a lot of fun.
ninjafiredragon wrote: Again, do you find thats worth 50 dollars? as much as a codex thats FULL of rules, and has the fluff? The percentage of people who buy the books for the altar of war missions, Eternal war missions, Apoc stuff, Cities of Death, and Planetstrike to the amount of people who buy it for the rules and fluff is just rediculous.
$50 Not so much. But just because you're not using certain parts of the book don't make them a less valid part of the book. That's like claiming drop pods aren't a valid part of the Space Marine codex because you don't use them in your bike army.
ninjafiredragon wrote: Really? With everything you just said it seems that you find no flaws in 40k, as i just pointed out the biggest ones and you denied every bit of it. And if you honestly believe 40k to be great with no flaws or problems.... just wow.....
Your original statement was about "issues with GW" not "issues with 40k". Those are two different things entirely. And honestly with how casually I play (namely just for fun and with Sisters mostly) a lot of the issues you've listed don't impact me personally so much. They're issues that really impact things like Nova, but frankly the game can be a lot of fun without trying to make every game into a "let's see whose list skull drags the other the best" competition that some people seem to insist the game MUST be able to do.
And that's not to say I don't want better balance. I'd love to see assault armies get more play, and less turtling for instance, as well as Repentia not be totally pants anymore, but I'm not so upset with the game that the things you've listed cause me to be unable to enjoy the game.
Now my main issues honestly have a lot more to do with how the GW board of directors is trying to keep the Iron Curtain up and has removed a lot of things that reached out to the community. I really feel the bean counters should have less control over what products come out and while I understand a price DROP is pretty much impossible I'd like to see them not raise prices for a few years if possible (to include the stealth price increases). Oh and GW should totally get FFG to make BFG using the X-Wing ruleset. I think it'd work GREAT.
You know, we could go into hours of debating over this, and if you want to here my reply to all this then say so, but obviously we both have very different opinions, and see different ways. I see no need to keep going back and forth.
I was looking forward to expanding my chaos army, and starting a space marine chapter after boot camp...but with everything happening...i must say goodbye to GW. I love all the fluff and the stories...but i am not investing any more money into a very clearly flawed business. If they get their shi* together maybe i will return. I hope so..
And before I get anymore accusations about being 100% content: I sent in a 20 page pamplet on things I felt needed to be addressed regarding the Sisters. That's right, I sent a frikkin' novella in on stuff. And I've gotten a response and while it's not being used for anything -right now- I know that it's at least been looked at, may be looked at again and may actually be put to use. Because that's how I roll.
The Tyranid release, basically. The prices for stuff I wanted hit that point where I felt dirty. It wasn't until I found a local store that sells for 20% off that I felt okay paying their prices again.
As purely a collector and not a gamer, i still love GW and their product, many an avenue i use to get cheaper GW product, but i still like travelling to my local GW for socialization and pick up my White Dwarf and Visions mag, hell at the mo i am actually paying full retail for the Movement Kits for my Warhammer Fantasy armies as it is conventient at the time.
I started hating GW when 6th came around and the FAQ for making the ork codex compatible pretty much spelled "LOL, we didn't even look at the codex! It's not space marines, so go feth yourself dirty xenos!" in capital pink letters.
I still do like GW. I still buy somethings here and there but the major buzz kill was the price increase. I budget myself to X amount a month. I used to buy 3 to 4 things a month, but now its maybe 2. Also, I don't feel like I'm getting what I pay for anymore. $40 for a box of ten plastic men does not mean as much to me when I got it for $30 awhile ago.
I also kind of got knocked out of the game when they would come out with a release with some pretty darn nifty units then the next update would hit that unit with the nerf sledge. Then make a whole new unit that becomes almost a requirment that costs $78 for a box of 3...
Plus other cheaper games and lack of time have spung me of course too.
Mate, what's the point of creating a poll thread which intentionally excludes the obvious option "I like GW". For all you people who claim that you don't like GW, you lot sure like to talk about it, dang.
Barksdale wrote: Mate, what's the point of creating a poll thread which intentionally excludes the obvious option "I like GW". For all you people who claim that you don't like GW, you lot sure like to talk about it, dang.
because we have a small faint hope that GW will see these complaints andbrealze what a big POS company it has become, and then hopefully change for the better...then we can stop complaining and actually enjoy ourselves once again by playing the best table top wargame available...which at this point is not WH40K
I think the shark jumping(hate is a foolish word to put on this poll) began for me when they brought flyers/FMCs into the game with 6th Edition without a care on using those 'Updates' to actually help balance lists. It would have been VERY simple to hand some AA out to the Xenos lists, so very easy...but GW refused. Dumb mistake, and seemed to me to prove their lack of care of their gaming base was beyond fixing.
Barksdale wrote: Mate, what's the point of creating a poll thread which intentionally excludes the obvious option "I like GW". For all you people who claim that you don't like GW, you lot sure like to talk about it, dang.
I think most people started disliking GW when it became fashionable to do so. In person, they'll have some complaints, but online "GW IS ANTI-CHRIST!!!" GW haters are the hipsters of the gaming world, people may agree with some stuff they say, but they are generally disliked for their "ironic" nature.
Barksdale wrote: Mate, what's the point of creating a poll thread which intentionally excludes the obvious option "I like GW". For all you people who claim that you don't like GW, you lot sure like to talk about it, dang.
because we have a small faint hope that GW will see these complaints andbrealze what a big POS company it has become, and then hopefully change for the better...then we can stop complaining and actually enjoy ourselves once again by playing the best table top wargame available...which at this point is not WH40K
So, its done by poll, which restrict response just to "I hate it...and I hate it". Yeah, very convicing...as the hope that GW will read another ranty thred on Dakka and opens its company eyes...because it must be living creature by attitude of some people.
I have one, really friendly, advice...maybe it would be better to move to the best wargame - and Im not saying it in spite. Just if you are unhappy with WH40K, believe me, not a thousand threads like this will change it. But Im not sending you to exile, this is not "like it or gak off" argument
Makumba wrote: Escalation started my dislike of w40k and DLC was the end .
So the DLC that was basically the first codex supplement, Codex: Armageddon did you in? Or was it the Eye of Terror book? GW is hardly doing anything new with supplements and mini codexes, so it's a little amusing to hear people lament something that's been around as a "new" problem.
viewfinder wrote: I think most people started disliking GW when it became fashionable to do so. In person, they'll have some complaints, but online "GW IS ANTI-CHRIST!!!" GW haters are the hipsters of the gaming world, people may agree with some stuff they say, but they are generally disliked for their "ironic" nature.
Oh dear, so many misuses of terms there I think my head just exploded....
There's simply not enough Inigo Montoya images in the world for this post.
viewfinder wrote: I think most people started disliking GW when it became fashionable to do so. In person, they'll have some complaints, but online "GW IS ANTI-CHRIST!!!" GW haters are the hipsters of the gaming world, people may agree with some stuff they say, but they are generally disliked for their "ironic" nature.
Oh dear, so many misuses of terms there I think my head just exploded....
There's simply not enough Inigo Montoya images in the world for this post.
Flyers I felt were a fairly awful addition to the game, but to be honest I am willing to put up with them.
The price hike, again I am willing to put up with. After all I am not being forced to buy anything.
The paint range never bothered me at all, but I got back into the game after they redid it.
Finecast is awful from the perspective of anyone except painters, it was a terrible decision but I didn't hate them for it. I just avoided it.
The rules are poorly written, worded inconveniently, don't make a whole lot of sense and I rarely run a cc army anymore. But there is a lot of things that are pretty decent in there. It's okay.
I have never and will never use allies. I play the army I play because I like it, and I will play it on it's own with it's own merits. I leave the allies to people who wish to use them for whatever reason.
Again, the price hike on hardcover books is something I will overlook, the abysmal layout is another thing all together though.
Let's be clear about this, Eldar and Tau are overpowered in the context of other armies but they are well written internally. If GW could consistently write good rules then it wouldn't be an issue. But they can't. So yeah.
Escalation and Super heavies are a nonevent for me because no one I play with is "that guy" or wants to just set up and shoot. It isn't fun for either side.
The rest is all pretty disgusting in terms of customer relations but I don't interact with people outside my gaming group and I don't add to my army often enough to care about these things. Though I certainly sympathize with people who do.
So in the end, the reason above all of these things that has made me dislike GW is the Tyranid Codex. I do not play Tyranids, my friend does. And in the two years we have been playing he has rarely beaten me with them, I said to him "Wait for the new Codex". Since the new codex he has never beaten me with them. Short of me actually just throwing the game, he cannot win. If I put any effort into beating him then I do. The rules are awful, it's easily the worst Codex I've ever read. The old saying that "GW is a miniatures company first" doesn't work for me because such a large percentage of their customers are gamers, and as I gamer I find the Tyranid Codex offensive to look at. It's not acceptable. I set the bar pretty low and they dropped below it, I had a great deal of patience but now it is spent. Until their rules get better I will keep what I have and not add to it. And I refuse to play against or with Tyranids until they stop making me angry when I look at them.
In the end though I am really just upset because I like 40k and it could be so much more than it is. It's like watching a really creative, intelligent, fun person go fully off the rails. Hurts my heart space.
One...again, not provocative question. I think we can agree on fact, that there is problem with really overpowered codices of Eldar and Tau and of course Allies and formations.
For the Ally/ Formation problem is simple cure. Make and agreement with your opponent not to use them, or, on tournament, TO could simply restrict/ forbid those.
Remains Tau and Eldar which slipped out as did GK. So... would be people complaining about weak Nids (weak = not OP as Taudar, I saw them played and they are far from unplayable) happy if GW released new codices for Taudar and cut the problematic parts? Its celarly hypothetical question, because I fear there would be new wave of hate from Tau and Eldar players because of weakening their armies... And Im not sure if there truly is way community would be happy with.
When they had that crazy 15-20% permanent price hike a couple summers ago
When they ordered indie retailers to stop shipping overseas
When the introduced Finecast
When they completely replaced their paint range
When Flyers and FMCs were introduced
When 6th edition released with its nerf to cc-armies, 'tanking' wound allocation and generally bloated rules
The Battle Brothers craziness in the Allies matrix and all its exploits
When rulebooks almost doubled in price due to hardcover
When they overpowered Eldar and Tau
When they started pushing Escalation and Superheavies into regular 40k When their accelerated release schedule meant even fans started to completely lose track of the state of the ruleset and confusion began to reign supreme
When they killed White Dwarf
When they removed all FAQs and Erratas
When their new website launched, deleting your existing account and order history
When they started selling supplements with 1 page of rules for hardback full price
When they started selling codexes based on single units (LotD, Stormtroopers) with no new unit range at all, as new armies
1 - If there's a constant in this hobby, it has to be price hikes. Still, if I was to vote, I'd probably pick this.
2 - No complaining here, this is a legitimate reason to be angered at GW - I don't suffer it directly, but I can sympathise with those affected.
3 - Two armies, over 3000 points each, zero finecast minis. I acknowledge that Finecast was a total blunder, but it wasn't the change in materials what made it painful, but the absolutely amateurish way in which GW handled it. I have less of a problem with Finecast than with all the bombastic copywriting that came with it.
4 - I like the new range better. It's still inferior to other paints on the market, but way better than the one we had before. What does bother you, the new naming?
5- I don't hate Corvus Belli for thermo-optical camo. Why should I hate GW for fliers?
6 - What? 6th ed wound allocation tanking? Someone's been cheating on you 7- See #5 - Still, it can be better worded as "poor rules writing and lack of a comprehensive vision of their game system".
8 - See, this is one move I really disliked. Still, there are... ways around it. In the end, it's their loss, not mine, so no hate.
9 - Lol, Grey Knights, Necrons, and a dozen armies before them say hello.
10 - With some exceptions, superheavies are not unlike your average deathstar unit. Except, they're often priced right.
11 - Truth be told, the only "confusing" release has been this Tempestus/Astra Militarum mess, and mostly due to ill-intentioned rumors. The accelerated release schedule would pose no problems if accompanied by a solid communications strategy.
12 - I never cared about WD to begin with. Looking for hobby news? Check Dakka.
13 - I would undestand this if "when" was not "yesterday". Come on, there may be a new set of FAQs on the way.
14 - Oh, I spent two minutes making a new account! HATE and MAIM and BURN!
15 - It's not like they're mandatory. If you don't like them, vote with your wallet.
16 - Codex: Necrons and Codex: Sisters of Battle had the astounding number of three units in them when they were introduced back in 2nd.
There's a lot to criticise both in GW as a company and in their products. But there's a noticeable difference between legitimate concern, constructive criticism and senseless whining.
Its strange. Saturday we played an APOC game, Necrons and DE vs. Nids and Nids. Each army was 5000 pts, so 10,000 pts per side.
DE had the Revenant Titan and I had the Trans. C'tan, while Nids had the Biotitan and a few other smaller superheavies.
Nids got knocked down hard.
Now they decided to restrict superheavies (say, <500 pts) in the next APOC game. Then I'm out.
wuestenfux wrote: Its strange. Saturday we played an APOC game, Necrons and DE vs. Nids and Nids. Each army was 5000 pts, so 10,000 pts per side.
DE had the Revenant Titan and I had the Trans. C'tan, while Nids had the Biotitan and a few other smaller superheavies.
Nids got knocked down hard.
Now they decided to restrict superheavies (say, <500 pts) in the next APOC game. Then I'm out.
Everyone is on board until the change hurts their army.
Heck, until I started Dark Eldar last week I didn't even have any Apoc Formations, and I still don't have proper access to any super-heavies (though Celestine as a count-as C'Tan Shard could be a lot of fun) for either army (Sisters or DE), only getting them through allies. And I still find Apoc to be a pretty good amount of fun! It's all about the mindset I guess.
See, one thing is that I miss the good days when you didn't have to worry about big 'ole tanks and giant robots clogging up the battlefield and you only had a few squads to command. As GW progressively got rid of everything remotely skirmish level (amping the game up, models costing less points, bye Kill Team, bye Necromunda, bye smaller scenarios), I started to get frustrated with them.
But it seems like there's a good market and lots of people who want to play big games with super-heavy tanks.
I think they should do something like what they did with their LOTR game, where there's a smaller-scale 'skirmish' version of the game that you can play. That really would answer a lot of my complaints.
Other than that it's just the standard gripes about the price, the crummy new website, and the price. Did I mention the price? Yeah, I did.
Wow, the fact that almost 600 people voted is amazing. I have seen some really tough you make the call polls not even get 10 votes. Still I would have liked to see a " No hate I still like GW and its games' option.
osirisx69 wrote: Wow, the fact that almost 600 people voted is amazing. I have seen some really tough you make the call polls not even get 10 votes. Still I would have liked to see a " No hate I still like GW and its games' option.
Not really. I voted for everything because everything sucks.
And the OP has a serious perspective issue if he forgot about the divided codexes from 2nd edition, Squats, Zoats, etc...
2011-2013 was a very rough time to be part of the GW "Hobby". One thing after another kept piling up. Price hikes, hardcover everything, very bad rulesets, horrible and (even for 40k standards) stupid fluff changes, very low quality products from the unmitigated disaster of "Finecast" to releasing surplus books that are hardcover, $50, and have 1 page of rules. There was also the incomprehensibly stupid paranoid secrecy of releases. Black Library and FW meanwhile, two of the better branches of GW, started to decline as GW infected them with their own moronic policies. BL these days is just an endless stream of overpriced "limited edition" hardcover reprints of past stories and anthologies.
But most of all it was GW becoming even more hostile and vicious towards its own customer base (chapter house, deleting all PR/social media, endless C&D letters, etc.). This was reflected in their bullying of FLGS. You have popular fansites/stores liek Mini-Wargaming begging GW to change their policies out of love and then getting a lawsuit threat as a reward. When I realized that as an older (15+) open but serious minded gamer and fluff enthusiast, GW actively hated me, I became fed up with them. I don't want any part of a company at war with its own "fans".
All of these things combined together. Had any problem existed independently of the other I probably wouldn't have had a major issue. But the prices, product-pushing, low quality, and hostility were too much for me to reconcile for a hobby.
But it hasn't stopped my love of the 40k universe. I always say GW only can make the experience as miserable for you as you let them. So print out some old edition rules, get your old (or converted/kitbashed/third party models) out, and play casually. 40k doesn't have to involve GW at all.
As for the complaints about complaints, this is all GW's fault. They've rendered "the hobby" to such a state that there isn't much to do besides reflect on whats wrong with it. We have a right to complain, this is the only outlet to do so since GW cut themselves off from any interaction with their customers, and if you don't like it don't read it.
Can we stop calling codex supplements "one page of rules" already? It's some serious hyperbole considering there are rules for Apoc, Cities of Death, and/or Planetstrike in the books and a number of Altar of War and Eternal War missions in each book (all of which are rules even if you don't choose to use them).
Plus the core rules of the books are 3 pages, not one.
ClockworkZion wrote: Can we stop calling codex supplements "one page of rules" already? It's some serious hyperbole considering there are rules for Apoc, Cities of Death, and/or Planetstrike in the books and a number of Altar of War and Eternal War missions in each book (all of which are rules even if you don't choose to use them).
Plus the core rules of the books are 3 pages, not one.
Why?
Anything beyond the regular game rules is effectively redundant for most players, most of the time. Sure, it may get used occasionally, but not to the point where it will be a significant selling point for most.
Is it really all that relevant whether it is one or two or three pages of rules? Isn't the fact that the document is severely light on crunch, despite being the same price, or substantial percentage thereof, a full army book, the issue here?
Being pedantic about the actual number of pages does nothing to change that fact, and just comes across as all a bit "Leave GW Alone!!"
ClockworkZion wrote: Can we stop calling codex supplements "one page of rules" already? It's some serious hyperbole considering there are rules for Apoc, Cities of Death, and/or Planetstrike in the books and a number of Altar of War and Eternal War missions in each book (all of which are rules even if you don't choose to use them).
Plus the core rules of the books are 3 pages, not one.
Why?
Anything beyond the regular game rules is effectively redundant for most players, most of the time. Sure, it may get used occasionally, but not to the point where it will be a significant selling point for most.
Is it really all that relevant whether it is one or two or three pages of rules? Isn't the fact that the document is severely light on crunch, despite being the same price, or substantial percentage thereof, a full army book, the issue here?
Being pedantic about the actual number of pages does nothing to change that fact, and just comes across as all a bit "Leave GW Alone!!"
I don't mind complaints about price, I do dislike hyperbole that misrepresents what is actually in the material though.
osirisx69 wrote: Wow, the fact that almost 600 people voted is amazing. I have seen some really tough you make the call polls not even get 10 votes. Still I would have liked to see a " No hate I still like GW and its games' option.
Not really. I voted for everything because everything sucks.
And the OP has a serious perspective issue if he forgot about the divided codexes from 2nd edition, Squats, Zoats, etc...
Well I'm honestly rather new. I joined in the last year of 5th edition and didn't really start playing till 6th struck so many of these things happened before I arrived. Most of these didn't immediately kill it for me since 6th was the first I really looked I to the rules as well (technically I played it for a bit in 3rd but that was long ago and I mainly played LotR). That being said, things gradually combined. Starting relatively fresh, my friend and I played the starter box thinking they were balanced. Big mistake. Honesty, I got a bit irked how my friend always seemed to be crushing me. Turns out the starter orks and starter chaos happened to be at a slight disadvantage. Well still I made it through and time to play.
Now, I wouldn't call it hatred as much as dislike/disillusionment. The first time I played fliers ruined fliers to me. Alright, I can live with it. Then Tau and Eldar came out and my Ksons which were already kinda crummy got worse. Then SM came out and I compared SM tactically to CSM. Okay first book I'll just have to live with it. Taudar, Seerstar, drastic nerf on assault, the thousands of supplements, bullying indie retail, dlc, removing tons of units, terrible terrible balance externally and internally, allies on allies with data slates on top, and then adding in super heavies. It's just. It honestly ruined much of the charm to me.
There was no specific point where I started to dislike Games Workshop. I do remember a time when I thought they were a good model company and that their stuff was the greatest thing ever. I think the start was when I bought my first Leman Russ. When I got it I thought I'd be getting something nice and big. At least the size of a good sized shoe. I paid $50 for it. When I finished putting it together.. it was puny. I justified it to myself thinking, "It's so detailed! Look how awesome it looks!".
Then I joined this forum. I was then exposed to the greater wargaming community. I saw how bad the rules were even back during the "Golden Age" of 5th edition. What really kickstarted my dislike was the price rise they had. I was baffled by how a company could be so greedy as to do a price rise (Lol, right?) for no good reason. And then they did it again. My precious guard army wasn't touched but it was still bull crap. I slowly started putting my army together over the months. I learned more and more about what Games Workshop does to it's fanbase. 6th edition hit and it renewed me with hope and love for the game. I played estatically with my guard army. I didn't much care for GW but I didn't overtly hate them.
Then they took down those articles. I loved the gak out those articles. They inspired me and made me love the HHHobby. They also had some cool Leman Russ tank camo schemes so yeah. Then they sued Chapterhouse studios over stupid crap. Then they released Tau/Eldar. Then the dataslates. Then more price hikes. Then Escalation. Now I really dislike them and how they messed up this great game.
I don't mind complaints about feeling that something is too expensive. but lying about how much content, or what the book actually provides to create a stronger position for yourself is best left to politicians, not the internet.
Frankly I feel the books are hitting the right notes in terms of length, scope and scale, it's the price that's wrong. $20 is about the most I'd want to pay for one normally ($30 is how my upper threshold for where I think the codexes should be, with $50 for the LE ones), so I understand the price complaint. The issue is that people aren't framing their complaint about how much is costs around it's actual costs, they're complaining about the content like there is less than there is and almost never mention the price which is just silly.
ClockworkZion wrote: Can we stop calling codex supplements "one page of rules" already? It's some serious hyperbole considering there are rules for Apoc, Cities of Death, and/or Planetstrike in the books and a number of Altar of War and Eternal War missions in each book (all of which are rules even if you don't choose to use them).
Plus the core rules of the books are 3 pages, not one.
Why?
Anything beyond the regular game rules is effectively redundant for most players, most of the time. Sure, it may get used occasionally, but not to the point where it will be a significant selling point for most.
Is it really all that relevant whether it is one or two or three pages of rules? Isn't the fact that the document is severely light on crunch, despite being the same price, or substantial percentage thereof, a full army book, the issue here?
Being pedantic about the actual number of pages does nothing to change that fact, and just comes across as all a bit "Leave GW Alone!!"
I don't mind complaints about price, I do dislike hyperbole that misrepresents what is actually in the material though.
Saying one page, when there are in fact a whole three doesn't really qualify as hyperbole IMO, YMMV.
ClockworkZion wrote: Can we stop calling codex supplements "one page of rules" already? It's some serious hyperbole considering there are rules for Apoc, Cities of Death, and/or Planetstrike in the books and a number of Altar of War and Eternal War missions in each book (all of which are rules even if you don't choose to use them).
Plus the core rules of the books are 3 pages, not one.
Why?
Anything beyond the regular game rules is effectively redundant for most players, most of the time. Sure, it may get used occasionally, but not to the point where it will be a significant selling point for most.
Is it really all that relevant whether it is one or two or three pages of rules? Isn't the fact that the document is severely light on crunch, despite being the same price, or substantial percentage thereof, a full army book, the issue here?
Being pedantic about the actual number of pages does nothing to change that fact, and just comes across as all a bit "Leave GW Alone!!"
I don't mind complaints about price, I do dislike hyperbole that misrepresents what is actually in the material though.
Saying one page, when there are in fact a whole three doesn't really qualify as hyperbole IMO, YMMV.
Three pages of core rules and about a dozen of non-core rules, sometimes more does make it hyperobole as we're pretending there is only a single page of "rules" in the book when there are in fact more.
And yes, not everyone is going to use all the rules, but like I've said in the past, that's like complaining that the C:SM book has Dreadnoughts in it when you play White Scars. Just because you don't find utility with some of it doesn't mean they aren't valid or that they aren't worth at least a little.
yukondal wrote: So then the question becomes are 3 pages of rules and some pictures worth $50?
That's ignoring the dozen other pages related to alternate game types, extra missions (to include scenario based ones) and all the fluff stuff, but better.
And no, supplements aren't worth $50. Like I've said, my upper limit on them is about $20. They're good, but frankly they're an add on to a main book and shouldn't cost as much as a full codex (which I feel shouldn't be over $30).
My main sticking point on the price related to the amount of content but more the utility of the book. You basically pay double the cost of a regular codex army just to have the rules for your faction. And if that cost was a total of $50 I'd be pretty okay with it, but when it's $100, that's just a bit too steep for me.
This is a culmination of the GW-hate on Dakka, a thread that assumes everyone dislikes them. And, looking at the options for this poll, the thread should be re-named "when did you start disliking 40k". GW make other games, you know.
I'm not hater of GW, but I do dislike the supplements. It's a cool idea, and some of them are actually pretty good, but the price is ridiculous. I lose a little bit of faith in humanity everytime I see somebody buy one. So that gets my vote in the poll.
Started to hate them when they started releasing rulesets that they didn't even attempt to balance. I don't mind bad balancing, at least the effort was there and they can work towards fixing it or improving upon their mistakes - no, its the scraping together of some pathetically written codex that they don't even care about, and releasing it knowing people have to buy it to play their armies anyway, and with 100 limited edition copies per continent shipped to just as a slap in the face. I don't know what option this is but I voted for the "accelerated releases" option.
I don't care about the milking, if the product is good, however I will not support such decisions and give my money to GW for making my game worse.
I literally went out and spent $300 on an iPad for the sole purpose of putting a pirate codex on there, so I can play my armies rules without having to give my money to GW to do so. Use it for very little else. Also pirated the dataslates because meh, they were a rip off anyway. And GW owes me $300 for that iPad the way I see it
However on the flip side of the coin, if they release an amazing codex for one of my armies, I will buy even the limited edition. I will support the effort and have done before. Best way to make it clear to them what they do right and wrong is to speak with the dollar. Just wish more people did the same.
And yes, I hate GW. Not just disillusioned or disappointed. If I could obliterate the company off the face of this earth this instant, I would not even hesitate. If they suddenly disbanded, someone new and better would snap up the opportunity to write rulesets for 40k. GW still being here at the moment is literally ruining the hobby I spent so much money on.
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The Shadow wrote: And, looking at the options for this poll, the thread should be re-named "when did you start disliking 40k". GW make other games, you know.
Disagree as I still like 40k otherwise I would not even be discussing it, however at this point I do hate the current role GW has to do with it.
The Shadow wrote: This is a culmination of the GW-hate on Dakka, a thread that assumes everyone dislikes them.
Hey, Dean Ambrose, is this what this thread is about?
This thread is for people who dislike GW to tell the OP why. If you like GW, why exactly did you come into a thread titled "When did you start disliking GW?". What exactly do you expect to find in here?
slk28850 wrote: You didn't include an I don't mind them option. I just buy less.
there was a good reason for this. distilled GW hatred doesn't need an antidote. no GW white knights wanted here.
Your views aside, you realize the context of "White Knighting" is not a positive one, right? It usually means defending a subject or person at the expense of reasoning or logic usually due to ignorance, incompetence, or being a "Fan At All Costs".
And to be honest, I have not see much actual fact based reasoning from most of your posts. Many people wouldn't call support GW "White Knighting" if you brought a reasonable argument. And no, "They didn't design the game to be competitive" isn't a reasonable argument. It's quite factual that a balanced game is a better game for all player types.
When the sales department , took over the studio.
And the game development changed from making exiting games to appeal to players.
To a '.. promotion department of a toy company...'
It's funny. Back in the eye of the storm, right after GW released Finecast and it was an abomination on top of a huge price rise, there were literally dozens of complaining threads on Dakka. Someone made a "What are some things you LIKE about GW?" thread. You know, because there's always got to be someone defending a corporation.I got a warning and my post deleted for jokingly saying I liked a negative. It's like the OP specifically was fishing for a certain attitude of GW worship in its posts, and if you didn't fall into line, you could go pound sand.
It's funny how this is a thread specifically to discuss the things that people that don't like about GW, and white knights are posting over and over, complaining there's no positive option on the poll. And somehow these posts are still here, over and over again. Just thought that was a funny little double standard.
As for me, the Finecast debacle coupled with the price rise put me right on the anger train. I could have accepted either one, but both of them together was really offensive to me. I STILL hate working with Finecast, even with its problems "fixed." It still feels cheap, and I'd much rather them go into multi-part plastics for said models.
I personally enjoy 6th edition, and I like the accelerated releases, which are something I had been advocating since I got into the game in 3rd Edition. The "downloadable content" not so much.
It's funny. Back in the eye of the storm, right after GW released Finecast and it was an abomination on top of a huge price rise, there were literally dozens of complaining threads on Dakka. Someone made a "What are some things you LIKE about GW?" thread. You know, because there's always got to be someone defending a corporation.I got a warning and my post deleted for jokingly saying I liked a negative. It's like the OP specifically was fishing for a certain attitude of GW worship in its posts, and if you didn't fall into line, you could go pound sand.
It's funny how this is a thread specifically to discuss the things that people that don't like about GW, and white knights are posting over and over, complaining there's no positive option on the poll. And somehow these posts are still here, over and over again. Just thought that was a funny little double standard.
As for me, the Finecast debacle coupled with the price rise put me right on the anger train. I could have accepted either one, but both of them together was really offensive to me. I STILL hate working with Finecast, even with its problems "fixed." It still feels cheap, and I'd much rather them go into multi-part plastics for said models.
I personally enjoy 6th edition, and I like the accelerated releases, which are something I had been advocating since I got into the game in 3rd Edition. The "downloadable content" not so much.
that may have been my friend Solofalcon's thread. it was shut down pretty quick, yet a GW whine thread still stayed strong.
No company will ever do everything right all the time. I'm surprised about the limited complaints on the new Astra Militarum book. very few screams of anguish...
that may have been my friend Solofalcon's thread. it was shut down pretty quick, yet a GW whine thread still stayed strong.
No company will ever do everything right all the time. I'm surprised about the limited complaints on the new Astra Militarum book. very few screams of anguish...
I doubt it, this thread went on until people were sick of it.
Is it any wonder you think everyone is a "whiner" when your immediate instinct is to claim surprise at very few "screams of anguish?"
I have been a 40k gamer since the mid 90's and I can understand what precipitates polls like this one. After all these years, "Bitter" is a word I would use to describe myself only on the absolute best of days, whenever I am asked about how I feel about a game I have spent put so much effort over my life into.
For me, it really is the price. I could forgive everything else, even them laying me off, if the prices weren't off the wall because GW has given me a lot of good times in the past with their products, and I genuinely enjoy their IPs.
viewfinder wrote: that may have been my friend Solofalcon's thread. it was shut down pretty quick, yet a GW whine thread still stayed strong.
No company will ever do everything right all the time. I'm surprised about the limited complaints on the new Astra Militarum book. very few screams of anguish...
Maybe because people actually have good reasons to dislike GW and don't blindly hate everything they do. If GW would man up and fix their balance and rules issues 80% of the people you declared blind haters would disapear.
So newfangled this hate. I started hating when I was playing Daemon Legion and it was announced that it wasn't going to be supported anymore nor a tournament official army. I quickly sold them and quit GW games back then.
Rautakanki wrote: So newfangled this hate. I started hating when I was playing Daemon Legion and it was announced that it wasn't going to be supported anymore nor a tournament official army. I quickly sold them and quit GW games back then.
And you still spend time going through 40k forums? Wow.
Rautakanki wrote: So newfangled this hate. I started hating when I was playing Daemon Legion and it was announced that it wasn't going to be supported anymore nor a tournament official army. I quickly sold them and quit GW games back then.
Daemon Legion? I don't remember that codex. Was it an Eye of Terror thing I'm forgetting about?
Rautakanki wrote: So newfangled this hate. I started hating when I was playing Daemon Legion and it was announced that it wasn't going to be supported anymore nor a tournament official army. I quickly sold them and quit GW games back then.
Daemon Legion? I don't remember that codex. Was it an Eye of Terror thing I'm forgetting about?
Storm of Chaos for WHFB.
At the time the list made Daemons viable as a force on their own (before, their ward save was removed by magical attacks). It had several units that were no longer supported (I want my Plague Chariots back!), but this is understandable given GW's way of doing things.
Then came the Daemons of Chaos book. So in all fairness I'm not entirely sure what Rautakanki is so hung up upon, unless his entire army comprised of Heralds on Plague Chariots and Plague Riders welded to 50mm bases.
Though I do feel the pain with LATD, Cult of Slaanesh and Kroot Mercenaries...
Rautakanki wrote: So newfangled this hate. I started hating when I was playing Daemon Legion and it was announced that it wasn't going to be supported anymore nor a tournament official army. I quickly sold them and quit GW games back then.
Daemon Legion? I don't remember that codex. Was it an Eye of Terror thing I'm forgetting about?
Storm of Chaos for WHFB.
At the time the list made Daemons viable as a force on their own (before, their ward save was removed by magical attacks). It had several units that were no longer supported (I want my Plague Chariots back!), but this is understandable given GW's way of doing things.
Then came the Daemons of Chaos book. So in all fairness I'm not entirely sure what Rautakanki is so hung up upon, unless his entire army comprised of Heralds on Plague Chariots and Plague Riders welded to 50mm bases.
Though I do feel the pain with LATD, Cult of Slaanesh and Kroot Mercenaries...
No wonder I don't remember, I'm not as up to snuff on WFB as I am on 40k.
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kronk wrote: I don't hate GW, but if it were a woman, I wouldn't ask it out to dinner, either.
Would you pepper spray it and kick it in the groin when it "m'lady"ied you and tipped it's fedora though?
1101 votes! That's some real upset customers there. If that was even 10% of GW base they would be concerned but in reality that number would have to be in the ten's of thousands
It's a multiple choice poll, people. That means the highest number of votes in one category are a rough estimate of how many people voted in total - around one hundred and fifty.
I have a dislike, but it grew slowly.
It started when the WD was turned to trash, and basically became an over priced advertising mag. However, i merely stopped buying it.
It then increased as the prices where hiked up to the point where a basic infantry unit was costing around £20. So i started Ebaying even more.
Finecast never really affected me as i started pre-Failcast and have a considerable metal collection. Those i needed i Ebayed.
When the store staff where replaced at my local GW and the new ones where really pushy... Thats when i started getting really disgruntled. Nontheless i took my trade elsewhere for the most part.
When the bad and overpriced Terrain sets where released, i said no. I build my own now.
When the new models started looking like anime ripoffs i looked at my stash and smiled. And i Ebayed once more.
The real crime came when they declared codex nerfguard and basically reduced the IG even further whilst pushing up the prices massively. Because they cannot have the SMs looking bad, can they? And even worse, the gacky new models look terrible.
My love for GW waned when they killed the good old days, where they did things like when in White Dwarf they released the beta rules for Battlefleet Gothic, complete with cardstock punch-outs of ships, blast markers, torpedoes, etc. It was just an advertisement at it's base value, but in the coolest way.
Those were the days where GW was a company who had a strong stable of guys/gals who were in touch with what made the company so "cool" to it's fanbase.
Arbitrator wrote: Constant price hiking. I can stomach everything else but it's really that simple.
Consider this, when I was in high school, a Whopper hamburger was 99 cents, same with a gallon of gas. Prices go up, on everything... at some point you just have to accept it and either spend the money or not.
The problem is that many of the things that were cheap inflated along with incomes. GW inflated much, much faster and in large sudden jumps.
Plus they changed over to a way of thinking like they feel they deserve our money for being such a great company making the "best figures in the industry". They are completely narcissistic now, rather than being in touch with the people who made them huge in the first place.
Arbitrator wrote: Constant price hiking. I can stomach everything else but it's really that simple.
Consider this, when I was in high school, a Whopper hamburger was 99 cents, same with a gallon of gas. Prices go up, on everything... at some point you just have to accept it and either spend the money or not.
Arbitrator wrote: Constant price hiking. I can stomach everything else but it's really that simple.
Consider this, when I was in high school, a Whopper hamburger was 99 cents, same with a gallon of gas. Prices go up, on everything... at some point you just have to accept it and either spend the money or not.
Tell me, how much has the price of red herrings risen?
Arbitrator wrote: Constant price hiking. I can stomach everything else but it's really that simple.
Consider this, when I was in high school, a Whopper hamburger was 99 cents, same with a gallon of gas. Prices go up, on everything... at some point you just have to accept it and either spend the money or not.
GW stuff has gone up WAY more than inflation.
Make no mistake; what are we discusssing here? A company that makes little plastic miniatures and sells them for a ridiculous amount of money. Their operational costs and manufacturing costs are nothing in comparison to their ROI (return on investment). The question still stands; to buy or not to buy. I just don't see the benefit of stressing out over the costs, you can either afford the purchases or you can't and have to find other options.
Arbitrator wrote: Constant price hiking. I can stomach everything else but it's really that simple.
Consider this, when I was in high school, a Whopper hamburger was 99 cents, same with a gallon of gas. Prices go up, on everything... at some point you just have to accept it and either spend the money or not.
Tell me, how much has the price of red herrings risen?
To your "point" it doesn't detract from the argument at all. I simply said prices go up on everything, you either buy or don't buy. Why people feel this incessant need to complain about everything outside of their control boggles my mind.
Make no mistake; what are we discusssing here? A company that makes little plastic miniatures and sells them for a ridiculous amount of money. Their operational costs and manufacturing costs are nothing in comparison to their ROI (return on investment). The question still stands; to buy or not to buy. I just don't see the benefit of stressing out over the costs, you can either afford the purchases or you can't and have to find other options.
It's not about being able to afford it or not. The models have risen far beyond what is considered to be worth the price they're asking to a good chunk of people.
How many times must we drill this into people's heads?
Arbitrator wrote: Constant price hiking. I can stomach everything else but it's really that simple.
Consider this, when I was in high school, a Whopper hamburger was 99 cents, same with a gallon of gas. Prices go up, on everything... at some point you just have to accept it and either spend the money or not.
GW stuff has gone up WAY more than inflation.
While true, GW isn't just dealing with inflation. There are a lot of things that impact their costs and most of it looks like it's related to their operating costs (which are all the costs not related to making the models themselves). So things driving the price hikes are mostly lease agreements, insurance costs, running the sales department (which goes through a LOT of hiring/firing in the US) and probably a whole bunch more I'm not even thinking of. These things don't all follow up the average rate of inflation afterall.
The switch to the "single operator store" was a big blow for me. There used to be a store in the mall that was open regular hours; now, the local store is open 11 am to 6 pm Tuesday to Saturday. It really hurts the community in the area to have the store open a total of seven hours on the weekend. Never mind that it's not open after the workday ends.
I hate to criticize the guy because he's friendly and helpful and only a leeeeeetle bit uncomfortably pushy, but only having one person working per store makes the hobby a lot harder to stay into and fragments the community unnecessarily.
I parted with GW when they started winding up Specialist games over 10 years ago. Thats around the time I started Uni so I didn't have as much time anyway but even then prices were starting to get a bit sully and the magazine had decidedly less content and enjoyment value. I dabble in all sorts of things now and I'm not opposed to buying GW outright, but they offer very little of interest to me.
I really can't comprehend the manner in which the company has been run in the last 10 years. Price increases are one thing, but they are so aggressive with their IP and belligerent in their handling of independent stores trying to sell their stuff that I've come to the opinion they are toxic to the wider hobby. It's all very well saying they are popular and bring people in, but the cost of their obnoxiousness is a burden to the wider hobby particularly when they come knocking with their legal threats and trying to squeeze independent traders who they know are somewhat dependent on GW sales. The more independents can diversify and support themselves regardless of stocking GW the healthier the hobby.
Prices are prices, take it or leave it. But they way GW seem keen to barge competition around and unnecessarily pressurise independent traders is something I take issue with.
Make no mistake; what are we discusssing here? A company that makes little plastic miniatures and sells them for a ridiculous amount of money. Their operational costs and manufacturing costs are nothing in comparison to their ROI (return on investment). The question still stands; to buy or not to buy. I just don't see the benefit of stressing out over the costs, you can either afford the purchases or you can't and have to find other options.
It's not about being able to afford it or not. The models have risen far beyond what is considered to be [b]worth the price they're asking to a good chunk of people.[/b]How many times must we drill this into people's heads?
Anecdotal evidence at best; a good chunk of people? I have to tell you, the local gaming store in my town can't seem to keep units on the shelf and there is a GW store within 15 mins from it as well as two other local stores within 30 mins. So my evidence would lead me to believe, a good chunk of the people I see pay the money.
Double digits drop in revenue year in year is not anecdotal. One could ascribe other reasons for it, but something is reducing the amount of money people are giving GW from previous years.
azreal13 wrote: Double digits drop in revenue year in year is not anecdotal. One could ascribe other reasons for it, but something is reducing the amount of money people are giving GW from previous years.
Revenue was up in FY 2013 (2012-2013) was over FY 2012 though. FY 2014's holiday season lagged, but so did the revenue streams of all retailers and a single year isn't enough to declare a pattern yet.
azreal13 wrote: Double digits drop in revenue year in year is not anecdotal. One could ascribe other reasons for it, but something is reducing the amount of money people are giving GW from previous years.
Probably the fact that unemployment remains high in many countries, real wages have dropped and inflation has devalued currency in the major consumerist nations. As an example, in the US, the company I work for (which is owned by one of the largest corporations in the country) has had a wage, raise and hiring freeze in place for almost two years now. I am effectively making less money today than I was seven years ago, even though my actual salary is higher. The value of the dollar has dropped, and the prices of everything has gone up. Thus, I have less disposable income than I did in 2007. I am not alone in this scenario.
azreal13 wrote: Double digits drop in revenue year in year is not anecdotal. One could ascribe other reasons for it, but something is reducing the amount of money people are giving GW from previous years.
Revenue was up in FY 2013 (2012-2013) was over FY 2012 though. FY 2014's holiday season lagged, but so did the revenue streams of all retailers and a single year isn't enough to declare a pattern yet.
I was just about to post this myself; thank you sir. And the point about all retailers is absolutely correct; its not just GW but many companies. People have a simple decision, is the product worth the price increases; yes or no. I pay the money, some people don't, its simply a matter of how much is too much to the specific person.
Not adjusted for inflation, price rises etc, and not by anything like a significant amount to be categorised as growth.
This has been done to death. A sudden, significant, unexpected drop in revenue after what can only be realistically be called flat income for a number of years is not a good sign. Factor in that many had predicted this would happen in exactly the manner it did and that GW/Kirby were unable to offer anything more substantive than "our shops have been closed more because of the one man model" as a reason and it looks worse.
It wasn't a year either, this was the interim report for the six months to the start of Dec 13, suffice to say a lot of people are going to be looking very keenly at the proper end of year report in a couple of months.
One cannot cite prevailing economic conditions that have been happening for a number of years and are now beginning to recover as a reason when their income didn't seem to suffer significantly when things were far worse either.
Thanks for reminding me Azreal, when I get home tonight I'll adjust the numbers I have for inflation and take another look. I'll save any potential arguing until after I do that.
Seems like most peoples frustration with GW comes from playing 40k. If you look at the question in the poll 7 of 16 questions you could vote on deal with 40k.
ClockworkZion wrote: Thanks for reminding me Azreal, when I get home tonight I'll adjust the numbers I have for inflation and take another look. I'll save any potential arguing until after I do that.
It's already been done mate, and unless you want to get pedantic over a million or two here or there, their income, until 2013, has essentially been flat for a number of years.
Rautakanki wrote: So newfangled this hate. I started hating when I was playing Daemon Legion and it was announced that it wasn't going to be supported anymore nor a tournament official army. I quickly sold them and quit GW games back then.
Daemon Legion? I don't remember that codex. Was it an Eye of Terror thing I'm forgetting about?
Storm of Chaos for WHFB.
At the time the list made Daemons viable as a force on their own (before, their ward save was removed by magical attacks). It had several units that were no longer supported (I want my Plague Chariots back!), but this is understandable given GW's way of doing things.
Then came the Daemons of Chaos book. So in all fairness I'm not entirely sure what Rautakanki is so hung up upon, unless his entire army comprised of Heralds on Plague Chariots and Plague Riders welded to 50mm bases.
Though I do feel the pain with LATD, Cult of Slaanesh and Kroot Mercenaries...
That book wasn't even rumoured to come back then, so what I gathered was, "screw you and your army it's no longer legal haha lol".
I don't hate GW these days, as incompetence doesn't provoke my wrath, it's not like EA who destroyed multiple excellent game studios just as a part of some lameass business strategy. Heck. Considering that I play Orks I'm pretty happy as the models are completely superior to what they were then, the rules have some things I wanted a lot back then such as running, objective based missions, usable fortification rules, challenges (even as they screw me)...
ClockworkZion wrote: Thanks for reminding me Azreal, when I get home tonight I'll adjust the numbers I have for inflation and take another look. I'll save any potential arguing until after I do that.
It's already been done mate, and unless you want to get pedantic over a million or two here or there, their income, until 2013, has essentially been flat for a number of years.
I hear people say it's been done but I've never seen it, so I'm going to do it so I can see it with my own eyes. Nothing personal but I don't just believe everything that's presented as fact online.
azreal13 wrote: Well, don't forget to account for price rises too.
Might as well tell me to account for new products while you're at it. Companies raise prices all the time to help rising costs, taking that out of the equation has costs increasing but not revenue which creates a bias of the information.
Plus to properly account for it you'd basically need an itemized list of how much money each item increased by and how many of each they sold so you can properly adjust the revenue, anything else and you're just shooting in the dark. Same for new products. And unless you know where I can get that kind of internal information without breaking into Nottingham inflation is the only thing I can properly account for without basically making information up.
Or we can simply operate under the premise "it is what it is" and go from there. Much like everything else, we can't have the world that we wish for or would like, we take the one we have. Same thing with GW; you either take what is or is not. Hoping for something, or lamenting why something isn't a certain way is unhealthy.
Money aside, like I said: my gradual lack of interest in 40K is due to how modern GW is interacting with us as the players, versus how they interacted towards the players ten years ago. Which sucks, as I have been with 40K for nearly 20 years now.
azreal13 wrote: Well, don't forget to account for price rises too.
Might as well tell me to account for new products while you're at it. Companies raise prices all the time to help rising costs, taking that out of the equation has costs increasing but not revenue which creates a bias of the information.
Plus to properly account for it you'd basically need an itemized list of how much money each item increased by and how many of each they sold so you can properly adjust the revenue, anything else and you're just shooting in the dark. Same for new products. And unless you know where I can get that kind of internal information without breaking into Nottingham inflation is the only thing I can properly account for without basically making information up.
Exactly my point. What you're undertaking to do is impossible with the access to information we have as general plebs.
The fact is that their income has been broadly similar for a number of years, it has not risen in line with their price increases (which are typically outside of inflation by a significant margin) nor can you really calculate what inflation is exactly because it will vary depending on what part of the globe you're looking at. Neither has their profit increased notably despite the ongoing cost cutting measures they've implemented.
Then we hit the first set of figures of 2013/14, and there is a notable drop in revenue and a corresponding drop in profit. There's lots of ways to spin it, and it is of course pure speculation for most of us, but the best fit is simply declining sales volume, masked by price rises and cost cutting until the point of price elasticity has been reached for a appreciable number of people coupled with very little meat left on the bone to cut.
The next report is going to be the most telling, if it shows better figures, then things will probably stabilise, if it is in the same vein as the interim, then that could spell real trouble.
azreal13 wrote: Exactly my point. What you're undertaking to do is impossible with the access to information we have as general plebs.
And thus and proof of GW being so flat that they're failing doesn't exist like claimed. Don't ask people to do the impossible if you can't do it yourself, nor try to back your claims with the non-existant information.
azreal13 wrote: The fact is that their income has been broadly similar for a number of years, it has not risen in line with their price increases (which are typically outside of inflation by a significant margin) nor can you really calculate what inflation is exactly because it will vary depending on what part of the globe you're looking at. Neither has their profit increased notably despite the ongoing cost cutting measures they've implemented.
Price increases are also not uniform across their entire line either so any numbers people throw around on how much things actually went up will be skewed. If 1-2 products go up by a lot, but others go up by a smaller margin then we're going to be skewed higher than would be representative of what they're going to take in.
azreal13 wrote: Then we hit the first set of figures of 2013/14, and there is a notable drop in revenue and a corresponding drop in profit. There's lots of ways to spin it, and it is of course pure speculation for most of us, but the best fit is simply declining sales volume, masked by price rises and cost cutting until the point of price elasticity has been reached for a appreciable number of people coupled with very little meat left on the bone to cut.
While true that GW did have a drop in revenue, without a drop being repeated we don't have a real trend to base things off of.
azreal13 wrote: The next report is going to be the most telling, if it shows better figures, then things will probably stabilise, if it is in the same vein as the interim, then that could spell real trouble.
I agree, it could, but only if it continues into FY2015. Spring is GW's slow period (weather is getting nicer, people spend more time outside and less inside on their hobby stuff) and that means that they're less likely to see a major recovery, but that still doesn't make it a trend. We don't have the kind of data to tell if Christmas 2013 was a fluke or a pattern for them yet.
azreal13 wrote: Exactly my point. What you're undertaking to do is impossible with the access to information we have as general plebs.
And thus and proof of GW being so flat that they're failing doesn't exist like claimed. Don't ask people to do the impossible if you can't do it yourself, nor try to back your claims with the non-existant information.
azreal13 wrote: The fact is that their income has been broadly similar for a number of years, it has not risen in line with their price increases (which are typically outside of inflation by a significant margin) nor can you really calculate what inflation is exactly because it will vary depending on what part of the globe you're looking at. Neither has their profit increased notably despite the ongoing cost cutting measures they've implemented.
Price increases are also not uniform across their entire line either so any numbers people throw around on how much things actually went up will be skewed. If 1-2 products go up by a lot, but others go up by a smaller margin then we're going to be skewed higher than would be representative of what they're going to take in.
azreal13 wrote: Then we hit the first set of figures of 2013/14, and there is a notable drop in revenue and a corresponding drop in profit. There's lots of ways to spin it, and it is of course pure speculation for most of us, but the best fit is simply declining sales volume, masked by price rises and cost cutting until the point of price elasticity has been reached for a appreciable number of people coupled with very little meat left on the bone to cut.
While true that GW did have a drop in revenue, without a drop being repeated we don't have a real trend to base things off of.
azreal13 wrote: The next report is going to be the most telling, if it shows better figures, then things will probably stabilise, if it is in the same vein as the interim, then that could spell real trouble.
I agree, it could, but only if it continues into FY2015. Spring is GW's slow period (weather is getting nicer, people spend more time outside and less inside on their hobby stuff) and that means that they're less likely to see a major recovery, but that still doesn't make it a trend. We don't have the kind of data to tell if Christmas 2013 was a fluke or a pattern for them yet.
*sigh*
I'm not getting involved in all this again.
Believe what you want to believe, if you are interested in my thoughts in the matter, browse through any of my posts on the subject from the threads in N+R or General Discussion.
I did a small comparison of prices in the early 2000s and what prices adjusted for inflation should be now and the price increases are generally way above inflation, although it varies markedly between different models which shows that the level of price increases are completely arbitrary.
What's really driving up price increases however are the mugs that pay for limited edition codexes for double the price for an extra dust jacket. The message this sends to GW is that their customers are prepared to pay a ridiculous premium for very little. It seems as though everything released now has a limited edition option. This in turn drives other prices up as GW realises just what it can get away with [e.g. 5 man kits with 10 head options and 20 weapon loadouts along with a 50% price increase]. Prices will stabilise when customers stop buying and not beforehand, and if you want it to change, maybe you need to be more discerning abut what you will and will not pay for.
Even thought the entire thread is designed to be a moan-fest (which I fully acknowledge taking part in!) we should steer away from just complaining about prices, as it usuall becomes an argument that goes nowhere.
We should be sharing other things that have changed over the years which make us feel how we do.
tyrannosaurus wrote: I did a small comparison of prices in the early 2000s and what prices adjusted for inflation should be now and the price increases are generally way above inflation, although it varies markedly between different models which shows that the level of price increases are completely arbitrary.
What's really driving up price increases however are the mugs that pay for limited edition codexes for double the price for an extra dust jacket. The message this sends to GW is that their customers are prepared to pay a ridiculous premium for very little. It seems as though everything released now has a limited edition option. This in turn drives other prices up as GW realises just what it can get away with [e.g. 5 man kits with 10 head options and 20 weapon loadouts along with a 50% price increase]. Prices will stabilise when customers stop buying and not beforehand, and if you want it to change, maybe you need to be more discerning abut what you will and will not pay for.
We've not agreed on much that I've noticed dude, but this I can get behind.
It's why I've substantially cut my spending in GW product for the last two years or so, and it is my fervent hope that the drop in revenue represents an appreciable number doing likewise. Not because I hate GW and want them to fail, but I want them to get the message and take a hard look at what they do.
If it doesn't work, well, no matter, I'm happy in my hobby without being overly tied into the HHHobby, if it does, well great. If the message is being sent, and GW refuse to hear it, then they do deserve to fail.
Believe what you want to believe, if you are interested in my thoughts in the matter, browse through any of my posts on the subject from the threads in N+R or General Discussion.
From about two months ago.
Forgive me for disagreeing if it's raining just because I felt a single raindrop. I'm a firm believer that patterns are needed to establish if something is an event or a trend. We can all agree that 2013 ended poorly but without knowing why, or if it's a larger trend keeps me from prepping for GW's funeral.
So here's what the last 5 years for GW looks like after adjusting everything up to 2013:
Now you'll notice a couple things here: first I focused on 4 factors: how much GW took in (Revenue), how much they spent making it (Cost of Sales), how much was left after discounting the cost of making it (Gross Profit) and how much they kept when all the other deductions finally came out (Loss/Profit attributable to Shareholders aka Retained Earnings).
And yes, Revenue is mostly flat over a 5 year period, but this is what happens when you inflate all the numbers, shifts get smaller and it flattens out.
What I noticed is that Gross Profit matched Revenue point for point in how it shifted up until 2012. After that the Cost of Sales actually bumped up enough to break the pattern. I believe this is when GW moved to the more detailed and expensive plastic molds which increased the relative cost. The dip fro 2009 and 2010 I believe is largely from GW moving away from metals and making most of the metal models direct only to reduce how many they'd have to cast, reducing their production costs at the time.
While Retained Earnings have gone up from 2007-2010 this was all attributable to them recovering from their major loss in 2007. After that Retained Earnings match the movements of Revenue more closely, and thus are fairly flat when inflation it taken into consideration.
This tells me that GW isn't doing things to artificially inflate their retained earnings to look healthier in the long run, nor does it seem they're actually do anything to disguise how things are working for them at the moment. However, it also tells me that while they are putting more money into the company (through retained earnings) each year, they're not really showing signs of actually growing, something I think most of us are pretty aware of.
So in short, GW mostly appears to be holding. They aren't really shooting themselves in the foot with anything to push their numbers while screwing themselves in the short term, but there isn't any real signs that their customer base is growing faster than they're turning them over either (and vice versa).
The problem with the argument is that you can't really put a value on things bought with a disposable income.
Now marketing practices like cutting the amount of models in a box but keeping the same price....that's less of a price hike (though it still is) and more of just a plain dirty business move.
Oh, and point of order, 2012 is when they started including cost of development in cost of sales, that's what caused the bump, and that's a fact lifted straight from their report. Nice speculation though.
azreal13 wrote: I repeat, two months ago called, it wants its discussion back.
You brought up that I was looking at numbers that weren't inflated, I said I was going to inflate them and take a look and I did. Just because you talked about it with other people two months ago doesn't mean I can't have my own opinions about it, or actually provide an something that shows how much things actually moved once inflated.
Price raises only go so far with the revenue. If revenue was actually climbing because of price rises then after inflating it then it shouldn't be so flat over a 5 year period. Same for Retained Earnings. GW isn't losing (yet) but they're not gaining (yet) either.
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azreal13 wrote: Oh, and point of order, 2012 is when they started including cost of development in cost of sales, that's what caused the bump, and that's a fact lifted straight from their report. Nice speculation though.
They've never had development costs or R&D listed in their reports before so I guess they were in Operating Expenses instead in the past. I was considering it was related to the kits as 2012-2013 is when we started seeing the more heavily detailed kits in the new releases (whose molds should cost more to make) so that was speculation, yes but I freely admit it. It doesn't shift retained earnings any though so I'm willing to bet that it was already accounted for.
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AegisGrimm wrote: The problem with the argument is that you can't really put a value on things bought with a disposable income.
Now marketing practices like cutting the amount of models in a box but keeping the same price....that's less of a price hike (though it still is) and more of just a plain dirty business move.
Yeah, that really didn't make any sense to me why they did that with Dire Avengers.
azreal13 wrote: I repeat, two months ago called, it wants its discussion back.
You brought up that I was looking at numbers that weren't inflated, I said I was going to inflate them and take a look and I did. Just because you talked about it with other people two months ago doesn't mean I can't have my own opinions about it, or actually provide an something that shows how much things actually moved once inflated.
Price raises only go so far with the revenue. If revenue was actually climbing because of price rises then after inflating it then it shouldn't be so flat over a 5 year period. Same for Retained Earnings. GW isn't losing (yet) but they're not gaining (yet) either.
Never said they were. You've assumed because I've taken a pessimistic stance with regard to the implications of the interim report I'm predicting the doom of GW.
Never been the case, just assumption on your part.
azreal13 wrote: Oh, and point of order, 2012 is when they started including cost of development in cost of sales, that's what caused the bump, and that's a fact lifted straight from their report. Nice speculation though.
They've never had development costs or R&D listed in their reports before so I guess they were in Operating Expenses instead in the past. I was considering it was related to the kits as 2012-2013 is when we started seeing the more heavily detailed kits in the new releases (whose molds should cost more to make) so that was speculation, yes but I freely admit it. It doesn't shift retained earnings any though so I'm willing to bet that it was already accounted for.
Of course it was already accounted for, it's the same cost, it's just listed elsewhere, it won't have any affect on the bottom line. What it does mean is now their cost of sales gives us a really clear idea of what GW spend in order to manufacture their product from square one - which pretty much torpedoes the old GW defender argument of "they cost more to make than you think because of XYZ" The kits cost very little to produce in relation to their RRP - if they're under pressure to increase prices (as opposed to just increasing them because they can) then it is purely down to their other, bloated cost base (ie the stores) which we've already covered, the production arm of GW sans the retail element, assuming a decent third party retailer network had been cultivated in lieu of their own, would be a very healthy company indeed.
I apologize, usually when GW's finances come up the stance that they're disguising flagging sales with price increases comes up, but if that was the case we'd see a disconnect with Cost of Sales moving a differently than Revenues, but it seems to be pretty well fixed to being a percentage of Revenues without any real deviancy.
It was interesting to look at though as it does confirm GW is largely basically "holding" with losses of customers being largely matched by gaining customers but neither out-pacing each other in at the moment.
azreal13 wrote: You're not accounting for the fact that cost of sales covers a much wider range of costs from 2012 onwards, but remains consistent.
This means that those costs are either insignificant or the production costs fell significantly, and those costs shored up the difference.
Without more information on what's going on behind the scenes there isn't a real way to describe what happened there with only 2013 as a point of data there.It's possible it has to do with the mass retirement of a lot of metal models that were phased out between then and now for instance or the switch to designing most of the plastic models through CAD has reduced material costs on making new models (since they don't need to sculpt, cast and then reduce the model for example), but without anything concrete it's hard to really be certain without more data.
At least, as far as I can tell, pre-2013 the prices weren't being artificially driven up to hide flagging sales like claimed (I remember seeing claims about this for a few years now, if GW has started to do it, then they've just started, and then 2014's EOY statement will make that fairly clear).
There's a document circulating which was accidentally released as part of the CHS case before being retracted.
I suggest you track it down, as it does give a break down of unit sales by SKU for the US.
It does NOT make for impressive reading.
Volume is down, prices are up, costs are down, yet profit isn't increasing, revenue is down for the first time in a long time, yet, given global economics just now offering plenty of reasonable options, GW/Kirby chooses to offer a mightily implausible justification (and, let's face it, judging by the share movement since, nobody bought it either)
There's plenty of ways to interpret the information on hand, but to me, anyone trying to put any sort of positive spin on it seems to be reaching from where I'm standing.
azreal13 wrote: There's a document circulating which was accidentally released as part of the CHS case before being retracted.
I suggest you track it down, as it does give a break down of unit sales by SKU for the US.
It does NOT make for impressive reading.
Volume is down, prices are up, costs are down, yet profit isn't increasing, revenue is down for the first time in a long time, yet, given global economics just now offering plenty of reasonable options, GW/Kirby chooses to offer a mightily implausible justification (and, let's face it, judging by the share movement since, nobody bought it either)
There's plenty of ways to interpret the information on hand, but to me, anyone trying to put any sort of positive spin on it seems to be reaching from where I'm standing.
I'm not trying to spin it either way honestly, just trying to refrain from passing judgment without knowing all the facts. I don't feel the board knows their ass from a Snotling honestly but I don't know if I'm willing to drive any nails in the coffin just yet. I've got my opinions, but without all the facts I don't like to claim any of them as facts. Guess I like to play it safe and watch things unfold more than fight for either side.
I am curious for which year the sales data is for as 2011 was a year we see a dip in Revenue so if it's from the same year then it's nothing they're hiding anywhere in terms of sales.
azreal13 wrote: There's a document circulating which was accidentally released as part of the CHS case before being retracted.
I suggest you track it down, as it does give a break down of unit sales by SKU for the US.
It does NOT make for impressive reading.
Volume is down, prices are up, costs are down, yet profit isn't increasing, revenue is down for the first time in a long time, yet, given global economics just now offering plenty of reasonable options, GW/Kirby chooses to offer a mightily implausible justification (and, let's face it, judging by the share movement since, nobody bought it either)
There's plenty of ways to interpret the information on hand, but to me, anyone trying to put any sort of positive spin on it seems to be reaching from where I'm standing.
I remember seeing that document and really wish I knew where I put it. There was some amazing stuff on there, like selling single digits of some of the less popluar, yet-to-be-updated boxes in a year.
Anecdotal evidence at best; a good chunk of people? I have to tell you, the local gaming store in my town can't seem to keep units on the shelf and there is a GW store within 15 mins from it as well as two other local stores within 30 mins. So my evidence would lead me to believe, a good chunk of the people I see pay the money.
If they can't keep it on the shelf, they are not ordering enough. GW will sell you as much as you'd like for your store.
Also, what is with people claiming you're not allowed to complain? This "welp, buy it or don't, but shut up" attitude is gross.
All of these irked me about GW, but the one that makes me rage face the most, and most often, is when they switch their paint lines. They have done it four times since I started this hobby, and every time they do it, I have to try to find a color that is close to a color they used to have. They aren't just changing bottle shapes and color names; they are changing the actual pigments themselves, which makes matching colors between paint line editions a motherfething pain in the hoop. And the rat-feth-suns-a-bastiches always seem to swap paint lines while I am in the middle of painting an army. They can't do it during those periods when I am between painting projects, oh no... gotta wait till a change in Snakebite Leather will hurt the hardest. Or completely drop pink from their line, despite Slaanesh armies being a thing they have rules for.
This habit of theirs has forced me to do partial re-paints of four armies so far. I'm starting to think GW is doing it on purpose to honk me off.
Anecdotal evidence at best; a good chunk of people? I have to tell you, the local gaming store in my town can't seem to keep units on the shelf and there is a GW store within 15 mins from it as well as two other local stores within 30 mins. So my evidence would lead me to believe, a good chunk of the people I see pay the money.
If they can't keep it on the shelf, they are not ordering enough. GW will sell you as much as you'd like for your store.
Also, what is with people claiming you're not allowed to complain? This "welp, buy it or don't, but shut up" attitude is gross.
Not once did we ever say shut up? I was simply saying, complaining for the sake of complaining is unhealthy thats all lol.
If they can't keep it on the shelf, they are not ordering enough. GW will sell you as much as you'd like for your store.
Actually. No, no they won't. OK, let me rephrase that. They will send you all the fairly low demand stuff you want, but the high demand stuff often has a limit on it, and the direct order stuff is limited as well.
If they can't keep it on the shelf, they are not ordering enough. GW will sell you as much as you'd like for your store.
Actually. No, no they won't. OK, let me rephrase that. They will send you all the fairly low demand stuff you want, but the high demand stuff often has a limit on it, and the direct order stuff is limited as well.
This is 100% accurate, which agains points to the fact that GW stuff still sells even with the price hikes.
squidhills wrote: All of these irked me about GW, but the one that makes me rage face the most, and most often, is when they switch their paint lines. They have done it four times since I started this hobby, and every time they do it, I have to try to find a color that is close to a color they used to have. They aren't just changing bottle shapes and color names; they are changing the actual pigments themselves, which makes matching colors between paint line editions a motherfething pain in the hoop. And the rat-feth-suns-a-bastiches always seem to swap paint lines while I am in the middle of painting an army. They can't do it during those periods when I am between painting projects, oh no... gotta wait till a change in Snakebite Leather will hurt the hardest. Or completely drop pink from their line, despite Slaanesh armies being a thing they have rules for.
This habit of theirs has forced me to do partial re-paints of four armies so far. I'm starting to think GW is doing it on purpose to honk me off.
Use Vallejos. That is what I do, and each time GW switches their paints I continue using the equivalent I have been using.
If they can't keep it on the shelf, they are not ordering enough. GW will sell you as much as you'd like for your store.
Actually. No, no they won't. OK, let me rephrase that. They will send you all the fairly low demand stuff you want, but the high demand stuff often has a limit on it, and the direct order stuff is limited as well.
This is 100% accurate, which agains points to the fact that GW stuff still sells even with the price hikes.
If what you're saying is true, then it wouldn't point to anything of the like. If quantities are extremely limited, it isn't hard to sell them.
There are several things on that list which I am NOT a fan of (finecast, price hikes, etc). But I wouldn't say I "hate" them. It's more like being mildly irritated.
Now the moment I became extremely irritated was when they posted the "roll for it" decision in one of the FAQs. That has got to be the lamest way to solve a rule issue. Going along with this is a complete lack of FAQs in over a YEAR. (and, no, I don't count the minor FAQ updates last september which covered a serious game change mechanic as a real FAQ.)
So I've had to answer a question for myself: is the game still worth playing if the producer (GW) continues to publish poorly edited rulebooks while refusing to fix well known and glaring issues?
At the current time my answer is Yes. If "7th", or whatever it is, rolls out and the situation becomes worse then I'll find something else to do.
DarknessEternal wrote: Why did anyone who voted in this thread actually come into a forum about Games Workshop's game Warhammer 40k? Do you really hate yourselves that much?
I don't troll around MLP sites telling people how much I loathe their hobby. That's not a good use of time for anyone involved.
People complain because they care. That's the sign that there is trouble. They are concerned because they feel less and less committed to the game, and they enjoy it less and less. Furthermore, so many of the changes and price increases are stifling any newcomers to the hobby, that has people worried.
We're in real trouble once people stop caring enough to complain.
DarknessEternal wrote: Why did anyone who voted in this thread actually come into a forum about Games Workshop's game Warhammer 40k? Do you really hate yourselves that much?
I don't troll around MLP sites telling people how much I loathe their hobby. That's not a good use of time for anyone involved.
People complain because they care. That's the sign that there is trouble. They are concerned because they feel less and less committed to the game, and they enjoy it less and less. Furthermore, so many of the changes and price increases are stifling any newcomers to the hobby, that has people worried.
We're in real trouble once people stop caring enough to complain.
There is a "rule" that exists in the Military: "Privates will always complain. It's when they stop you need to worry."
Why did anyone who voted in this thread actually come into a forum about Games Workshop's game Warhammer 40k? Do you really hate yourselves that much?
Because up until 6th edition 40K, I really loved the game. Some of the things that had been changed in 5th I didn't really like, but it's nothing close to the storm of feth since 6th edition came out. I love painting and modelling within the game universe, but good god, the game is basically being run by a sales team this edition, not a design team.
Not one thing in the poll was in existence before 6th edition. So it's basically a poll about whether you like 40K, but hate everything that has happened since 6th dropped.
Why did anyone who voted in this thread actually come into a forum about Games Workshop's game Warhammer 40k? Do you really hate yourselves that much?
Because up until 6th edition 40K, I really loved the game. Some of the things that had been changed in 5th I didn't really like, but it's nothing close to the storm of feth since 6th edition came out. I love painting and modelling within the game universe, but good god, the game is basically being run by a sales team this edition, not a design team.
Not one thing in the poll was in existence before 6th edition. So it's basically a poll about whether you like 40K, but hate everything that has happened since 6th dropped.
Indeed.
What exactly does one expect to find in a thread titled "When did you start disliking GW?"?
Why did anyone who voted in this thread actually come into a forum about Games Workshop's game Warhammer 40k? Do you really hate yourselves that much?
Because up until 6th edition 40K, I really loved the game. Some of the things that had been changed in 5th I didn't really like, but it's nothing close to the storm of feth since 6th edition came out. I love painting and modelling within the game universe, but good god, the game is basically being run by a sales team this edition, not a design team.
Not one thing in the poll was in existence before 6th edition. So it's basically a poll about whether you like 40K, but hate everything that has happened since 6th dropped.
so much this.
The only things in 5th that anybody really complained about in terms of the overall gamestate was Matt Ward retconning Necron and GK fluff, and perhaps mechanized armies dominating the tournament scene as well as of course BA flying Land Raiders. Then of course there were a lot of complaints further back in time when 40k completely reinvented itself during its shift from 2nd edition to 3rd, and the barebones codices that followed, but thats about it, and perhaps WD dropping in quality from around that time onward. I cant think of any other major issues back in the day.
xraytango wrote: When they lied and told us plastic was going to be cheaper and therefore the savings would be passed on to the consumer.
That was 1992.
Still waiting.
They were cheaper. When things like the plastic Catachans and plastic multipart empire were released they were 20 in a box for £10. Metal infantry sure weren't 50p a figure. Since then they've gone up a lot though, particularly since GW in an investor report of some years ago described that the market was willing to pay equivalent prices for metal and plastic, so that's what they would charge. And which is why those same 50p Catachans are now £1.80
I wouldn't use the word "hate," but there was definitely a very rapid process where I stopped buying new things from GW and switched to an Ebay/friends selling their models/converted models from other companies only policy. That process was caused by a combination of the 15-20% price increase, the complete lack of passing on savings from switching to plastic to consumers, the gutting of all gaming related content from WD and the company website, the doubling in price for hardcover rulebooks, with even PDFs costing more than the old softcover rulebooks, and the dawn of the dataslates. If all you see me as is a big dumb wallet that will keep pouring out money, no matter how blatantly you're ripping me off, I feel no obligation to prove you right. It's called customer satisfaction, GW. Learn it.
Pretty true. I find it to be quite telling when I have been with 40K for nearly 20 years, and only over the last couple of years have I suddenly moved away from buying from GW at all.
And you know what? Other than the price it would cost to upgrade all my armies to 6th edition.....everything has been driven by how GW is coming across towards me -a long time loyal consumer- as a business currently. I am a painter/modeller first and a gamer second- hell I could play games of 2nd edition and be happy- and GW is becoming increasingly toxic towards being a casual consumer of their products.
If you are a casual gamer (like me) who wants to primarily have fun painting up a couple of armies so they look awesome, and then have the added bonus of playing some games with them, be prepared for a kick in the balls if you are using the current edition. Crazy pricing, price hikes, idiotic material changes, sudden changes in unit packaging to make them idiotically more expensive to make units with, etc.
DarknessEternal wrote: Why did anyone who voted in this thread actually come into a forum about Games Workshop's game Warhammer 40k? Do you really hate yourselves that much?.
Because disliking GW's recent business direction is not the same thing as disliking Warhammer 40k.
Because disliking the current direction of the game is not the same as disliking the game.
Because complaining about the things you dislike about something that you otherwise enjoy can sometimes effect positive change.
And because when you have invested a lot of time, effort and money into something that then changes into something you don't like as much, it's not so easy to just shrug your shoulders and move on to something else.
DarknessEternal wrote: Why did anyone who voted in this thread actually come into a forum about Games Workshop's game Warhammer 40k? Do you really hate yourselves that much?.
Because disliking GW's recent business direction is not the same thing as disliking Warhammer 40k.
Because disliking the current direction of the game is not the same as disliking the game.
Because complaining about the things you dislike about something that you otherwise enjoy can sometimes effect positive change.
And because when you have invested a lot of time, effort and money into something that then changes into something you don't like as much, it's not so easy to just shrug your shoulders and move on to something else.
Exalted, and I am going to copy-paste this every time this comes up again.
Because the business directions of the last five years may have nearly completely soured me against going any further with current editions, but that does not invalidate the 15 years of fun and enjoyment I had prior to that.
40K in general is awesome. 6th edition specifically (in my opinion) much less so.
Mine came when the new nids book dropped, which completely neutered the army I used. I really dont feel that I should be forced to buy ~600USD to make my army viable (harpy x3 + exocrine x3 + venomthrope x3) against ANY opponent, not just high-tier competitive lists.
StarHunter25 wrote: Mine came when the new nids book dropped, which completely neutered the army I used. I really dont feel that I should be forced to buy ~600USD to make my army viable (harpy x3 + exocrine x3 + venomthrope x3) against ANY opponent, not just high-tier competitive lists.
also the foot tyrant is pretty much dead now, isnt it? everyone takes flyrants
Sir Arun wrote: well, 7th edition has added more fun items to the long list
*shhh*
We still don't know for certain if the rumors are true. I'm almost convinced all this gak about no-restriction armies and Space Marines summoning demons is either some astoundingly clever trolling, or GW finding the person who's been leaking information and deliberately feeding them false information to confuse people.
Sir Arun wrote: well, 7th edition has added more fun items to the long list
*shhh*
We still don't know for certain if the rumors are true. I'm almost convinced all this gak about no-restriction armies and Space Marines summoning demons is either some astoundingly clever trolling, or GW finding the person who's been leaking information and deliberately feeding them false information to confuse people.
Seriosuly? did you not see the extremely clear pic of the white dwarf? We may not know the exact wording of the rule, but we know what it does.
As of last weekend I decide to put most of my 40K and Warhammer fantasy on ebay with exception to my Eldar, Dwarf and Vampire armies. I'm keeping only one of the following Guard or Ork cant decide yet. let me tell you it is still alot of stuff to get rid of. I've had enough of thier bull@&^$. I used to have that I can't wait untill I can play this with my kids attitude. Now that ship has sailed. At best I'll play one game a month maybe 2 but not going out of my way to play.
It wasn't one single thing. I disliked their constant price hikes on what were already some of the most expensive minis on the market. Their prices have simply gotten ridiculous any more. Couple with increased rule book and codex prices (as well as these new mini dexes which often should have just been part of the main dex...) and I was pretty neutral. However, the news that 7th is already dropping has just killed it for me.
I was in the process of getting my Marines ready to go (I was at least half done) as well as a Farsight army, but now I have no interest in finishing them from an 'army' perspective. I am NOT dropping another ton of money on a new rule book when I haven't had a chance to play the 'old' one yet.
A vast majority of the options are rules related, and as I don't play 40K and don't miss it they're no issue for me.
I suppose I don't really dislike GW, but the things in the poll I'm somewhat unhappy about are:
When they had that crazy 15-20% permanent price hike a couple summers ago - Yes, prices went up a lot during a short period of time. Especially the terrain, which I remember I was particularly pissed off about as I planned on a lot of terrain purchases. Still haven't bought any.
When the introduced Finecast - Haven't spent a penny on individual models since this happened.
When they killed White Dwarf - I wasn't into wargaming during the time White Dwarf was good, so it's not the "killing" per se I'm bummed about, but more like the current state of it. I wouldn't mind buying or subscribing to a GW-centric magazine, if it was good.
And one that isn't an option:
When they killed off Specialist Games - The money I'd throw them for Epic stuff...
And to a lesser extent:
When their new website launched, deleting your existing account and order history - This was a bit of a problem for me, as my virtual gift vouchers disappeared. Took me three weeks to get them back, but it's all resolved now. I didn't like the site first either, but I'm warming to it.
Games Workshop definitely leaves a lot to be desired, but it appears the main problem people have is with their rulesets. Again, they aren't an issue for me. I still love their plastic kits and, while they are on the pricier side, I will keep buying them as long as I feel I get my moneys worth.
I was with them right up until this 7th ed nonsense was all but confirmed. That was the straw that broke the camels back. Before that I put down all the ridiculous costs of 40k as just a side effect if playing this awesome game, but now I'm done with it all.
The price jack made me stop buying models in favor of proxying a lot of my armies. I didn't mind the nerfs, buffs, and even introducing escalation (the more chaos, the merrier!).
The new White Dwarf and the new website send me a message about the company that rubs me the wrong way. It's telling me that the company that at least looked like they were interested in the customer is now only after the money. It's just so... cold and unfriendly.
There was also the removal of specialist games rules. Was there really a reason to remove the rules PDF's without even giving a reason?
I still play and enjoy 40k and WHFB, but I really don't like its company.
If that was even 10% of 
