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I don't dislike GW, I dislike some of the decisions that the corporate side of things have implemented.

However, that doesn't mean I don't buy GW. I still purchase and enjoy Fantasy and LotR/Hobbit products.

I just don't really buy 40K any more because the game is no longer fun.

As a modeler first it was when the Landraider broke the $50 dollar mark and then the closing of the bits orders. It was at that point I realized that GW was more interested in the dollar than the value if the product. Add to it that their codexs have always been an editing nightmare, but when they want that level of money for such a flawed product it's almost insulting.

The thing is, I'm not poor. I could easily actually afford to buy their stuff, but I won't because there is just not equal value of product vs dollar.

Can we stop with the 'oh look a whine thread' crap please?

The vast majority of the posts here that aren't complaining about the existence of this thread are legitimate complaints about the company and people should be allowed to discuss that.

There are on average of 10 or so "I hate GW" threads every single day on here.
So this is nothing different or new.

Not to mention countless comments on various threads about issues with them.
By now i think people get the point without needing yet another thread about it.

So, we are allowed a ton of these threads, but the second someone says about it then it raises an issue?

There aren't 10 every dat but even if there where you aren't being forced to read them.

On the other hand all you're contributibing here is whining about whiners.

I didn't vote as I don't hate GW. They do make many decisions which baffle me and I cannot fathom their bunker mentality but that could just be Kirby with his fondness of fortress and moat analogies.

I still love 40K though so, it's hard to hate GW even though they can be a bit daft.

jono - You might want to re-read my origional post then.
Just because i didnt pick an option from above does not mean i cant have an opinion.
Infact, "not hating GW" seems to be in the lead by the seems of it.

Heh I knew this thread would bring out all the non gw haters. Honestly i catn even fathom how people dont dislike gw for what thev done to the game.

 Jackal wrote:
There are on average of 10 or so "I hate GW" threads every single day on here.
So this is nothing different or new.

Not to mention countless comments on various threads about issues with them.
By now i think people get the point without needing yet another thread about it.

So, we are allowed a ton of these threads, but the second someone says about it then it raises an issue?

I already outlined the deficiency in this post, but also the deficiency of your argument against said posts.

Complaining is healthy. A feedback loop of "everything's A-okay, nothing wrong here!" is not. No one is flying off the handle or rage posting, so let the discussion continue.

As for cost, I can afford the game easily, too. I just see the value of the product bottoming out.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Heh I knew this thread would bring out all the non gw haters. Honestly i catn even fathom how people dont dislike gw for what thev done to the game.

Because they aren't burning puppies, kicking orphans and raping kittens?

Seriously, most of the stuff they do makes sense in the fact that they're trying to do what's best for the company's bottom line (as all companies basically do) and I've learned to accept that. I usually just end up scratching my head when they do the occasional thing that is a legitimate step backwards.

 Jackal wrote:
Infact, "not hating GW" seems to be in the lead by the seems of it.

While there is not an option for "I don't hate GW," there is already 220+ votes on the matter. That suggests a strong grouping of frustrated folks for that to happen in a short amount of time. A new poll with your option would be much more valid.

However, hate should be reworded to frustrated/dissappointed. Hate is still an emotion showing caring. The complete lack of caring isn't hatred. Hatred is as powerful as other emotions.

The real sign of someone who doesn't like GW is apathy. And apathetic people don't comment on the topics. That's what I have already pointed out.

Kbob - Everything isnt ok with them, i posted a few issues in my original post.
While they have alot of issues (more so in more recent times) i still find them above the line of being hated by myself.

Yes, they screw up quite often and sales tactics are about as useful as a chocolate teapot, but i still love the game and the actual models themselves are stunning to me.


It was more because there isnt an option for people who dont hate them.
Does not have to be a like option, but just something inbetween.

I don't dislike GW, they do have lots of positive aspects.

I like their IP, I like many of their models and kits, they're customer service staff are generally very nice and always resolve my issues if something is wrong with a kit.

I dislike however the way they write rules, the methodology of their releases, their pricing is getting absolutely insane, and I think their marketing is asinine.

 Jackal wrote:
Kbob - Everything isnt ok with them, i posted a few issues in my original post.
While they have alot of issues (more so in more recent times) i still find them above the line of being hated by myself.

Yes, they screw up quite often and sales tactics are about as useful as a chocolate teapot, but i still love the game and the actual models themselves are stunning to me.


It was more because there isnt an option for people who dont hate them.
Does not have to be a like option, but just something inbetween.

I agree fully. A complete consensus poll is better than one that begs the question.

I'm a bit more gruff as I'm in an area that doesn't play it as much. I have a lot more third party games at my doorstep and plenty of folks offering incentive to "join their fold". So as I branch out, I see more consideration from other companies. I have shook hands with the guy that wrote Infinity, I follow their studio painter on Facebook. We have a local press ganger that helps run events for PP and I follow some of their painters, too.

It feels like other companies offer a more complete package. Mike Brandt (of LVO fame) made a post late Dec or so on his blog about switching to Malifaux and the lead designer for v2.0 chimed in to pick his brain.

These are just things we don't see from GW. It makes these small misteps become amplified when we know they are the top dogs. They have the ability to leverage their massive resource base to do these things which would make them unstoppable. If GW made an outrider program like Press Gangers, I'd give a strong thought to become one.

But I'm also just upset on how I, as the gamer first, hobbiest second, am being treated. And the word for that is poorly.

Edit: Who proofreads the internet...

To add to the topic though, GW do have one thing that pisses me off alot, and thats the limited edition stuff.

Usually its a great model/kit, but due to being limited, you have to buy it at that moment or its gone.
While its great for selling the product out at a very fast rate, it actually makes them less money in the long run as they are great models and will continue to sell.

Im sure people would still be buying space hulk now if it was available still.



Edit:


Kbob - I think thats the main issue.
I was raised knowing pretty much only GW.
No one i know plays any other game really, so its been the only game i have played through the years.

I think the biggest piss off though is that with GW's size and fanbase, they could easily corner the market by sorting out sales issues (prices and advertising etc)
Just feels like they are trying to milk a dead cow when theres a field full of live ones 100 yards away.

 Jackal wrote:

Im sure people would still be buying space hulk now if it was available still.

QFT Exalt that...

I really would like to buy the board game from GW and that's frustrating. And paying $250~ for a used set on eBay doesn't sound fun to me. Here's the thing, I know of several "third party vendors" who offer the full sweet of models... GW is missing out on a market.

I remember when a box of Berzerkers was £10. So I've been there for all the hikes, the change to finecast and the fall of white dwarf.

Nothing disappointed me as much as when they took their facebook page down. Perhaps I need to get out more.

This is my point Kbob.

The limited runs that GW do are flawless.
And the price of space hulk for what you got was even better.

They could have made a fortune from this, but instead decided to try and make quick money on a limited release.


If it was me, i would have released it normally then been putting out expansions with more models, rules and scenarios once i saw how well it sold.

Thats what people want.


Edit: XT-1984 - Dont need to get out more, you have a good point.
That was possible the best connection GW had with fans.

 XT-1984 wrote:
I remember when a box of Berzerkers was £10. So I've been there for all the hikes, the change to finecast and the fall of white dwarf.

Nothing disappointed me as much as when they took their facebook page down. Perhaps I need to get out more.

yes you do. prices go up, it's an economic fact.

 viewfinder wrote:

 XT-1984 wrote:
I remember when a box of Berzerkers was £10. So I've been there for all the hikes, the change to finecast and the fall of white dwarf.

Nothing disappointed me as much as when they took their facebook page down. Perhaps I need to get out more.

yes you do. prices go up, it's an economic fact.

While you are correct that price hikes are inevitable, you could have been a bit more polite about it.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 viewfinder wrote:

 XT-1984 wrote:
I remember when a box of Berzerkers was £10. So I've been there for all the hikes, the change to finecast and the fall of white dwarf.

Nothing disappointed me as much as when they took their facebook page down. Perhaps I need to get out more.

yes you do. prices go up, it's an economic fact.

While you are correct that price hikes are inevitable, you could have been a bit more polite about it.

Also, I am curious how much the price has increased on Berzerkers vs. inflation/changes to the kit. We'd need more info. about the case at hand.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Heh I knew this thread would bring out all the non gw haters. Honestly i catn even fathom how people dont dislike gw for what thev done to the game.

Because they aren't burning puppies, kicking orphans and raping kittens?

Seriously, most of the stuff they do makes sense in the fact that they're trying to do what's best for the company's bottom line (as all companies basically do) and I've learned to accept that. I usually just end up scratching my head when they do the occasional thing that is a legitimate step backwards.

Such as....
The Battle Brother broken combos?
When rulebooks got crazy price increase just because of hardback?
When they overpowered Codexes making broken and dumb deathstars no one likes to go up against?
When the said f**k to balanced 40k and released escalation and stronghold assualt?
With 50$ supplements with one page of rules?

How do you just turn your head at that?

 Accolade wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 viewfinder wrote:

 XT-1984 wrote:
I remember when a box of Berzerkers was £10. So I've been there for all the hikes, the change to finecast and the fall of white dwarf.

Nothing disappointed me as much as when they took their facebook page down. Perhaps I need to get out more.

yes you do. prices go up, it's an economic fact.

While you are correct that price hikes are inevitable, you could have been a bit more polite about it.

Also, I am curious how much the price has increased on Berzerkers vs. inflation/changes to the kit. We'd need more info. about the case at hand.

A lot more info as you'd also have to factor in increased insurance costs, wage rates, benefit packages (which cost the company), new equipment (which these price hikes help pay for), pretty much everything to do with the sales branch (and the mess that it is sometimes. I'm still pretty sure the stores themselves cost more than they bring in at this point), taxes, and probably half a dozen other things we don't even know about.

Yes inflation is a decent measure but it's hardly the sole influence on why something goes up in price.

Jackal wrote:This is my point Kbob.

The limited runs that GW do are flawless.
And the price of space hulk for what you got was even better.

They could have made a fortune from this, but instead decided to try and make quick money on a limited release.


If it was me, i would have released it normally then been putting out expansions with more models, rules and scenarios once i saw how well it sold.

Thats what people want.


Edit: XT-1984 - Dont need to get out more, you have a good point.
That was possible the best connection GW had with fans.

That sounds fan-freakin'-tastic. Space Hulk expansions? Different load outs, maybe chapter tactics? Boss encounters, leveling up, relics discovered... Man, you could grow that into it's own little narrative forging event. If they want to make the game more D&D, make Space Hulk into that D&D thing ("Tomb of Many Horrors", I think?) that's a singular campaign that's stupid hard but very rewarding.

I'd buy that so hard. You make me sad that it doesn't exist. :(

viewfinder wrote:
yes you do. prices go up, it's an economic fact.

Hey, guess what? When other companies re-release metal models into plastic/resin, they DROP the price! That's an economic fact... cheaper material + passing on savings to the customer = makes you look like a rockstar and you maintain previous margins on the product that's cheaper to make, ship, and stock. Win, win! Someone should teach GW that...

ninja:

Broken combo's - Lash oblit existed before allies, there were always broken combo's in the game.

Increase on books - They should have had an option of either to be honest, but i do prefer the hardback since its lasted alot longer than a soft cover.
Should still have the option of buying either though.

Codex creep - Each book is more in keeping with current rules, so the newer the book the stronger it tends to be anyway as its more suited for the edition at the time.

40k/apoc - I agree here, creeping escalation into 40k is a bad move and should have stayed a separate thing altogether.

Supplements - Thats from a gamers point of view.
Keep in mind alot of people only buy things like this for the fluff in them, so yes, just for rules it is bloody expensive.
Is still expensive for what you get anyway though.


Turning heads - Not everyone is phased as easily as other people are.
I can balance out the pro's and con's to keep myself happy playing the game at the moment.
However, that one is down to each person.



Edit: Kbob - They really did miss that one.
Thats one of the huge benefits that specialist games would bring to the table.
They only need 2-3 people as a team aswell to manage rules and ideas, so wouldnt be anywhere near a drain for what it would make.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

Such as....
The Battle Brother broken combos?

Not a company policy and I hear about it more online than actually see it. Besides, as a non-competetive player I can choose to not play people who want to run the latest cheese nonsense. I've always got more models to paint instead.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
When rulebooks got crazy price increase just because of hardback?

Hard back, full color and the paper is of a higher quality.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
When they overpowered Codexes making broken and dumb deathstars no one likes to go up against?

You mean things players do that go against "the Spirit of the Game" by making choices that are only fun for them and no one else?

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
When the said f**k to balanced 40k and released escalation and stronghold assualt?

Only part about those books that are bad is the D-Weapon rules. Everything else is pretty balanced. FW's alternate D-weapon rules for the Heresy stuff that's rumored to exist fixes that though.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
With 50$ supplements with one page of rules?

3 pages of core rules, more than a dozen pages of fluff, several pages of miniatures, new art, altar of war missions (which ARE rules) and Eternal War missions (which are ALSO rules). Oh and some of the books have had stuff for Apoc, Cities of Death and/or Planetstrike. Quit marginalizing the whole thing into an understatement that basically lies about all that's in the books.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
How do you just turn your head at that?

By not blowing it out of proportion or flat out lying about what's in the product?

 viewfinder wrote:

yes you do. prices go up, it's an economic fact.

None of that bothered me much. Facebook page is the point I was making.

Hardcover books are a rip-off. You can find plenty of articles on how that entire book industry uses that model to fleece people out of cash for a more expensive product with smaller cost associated with manufacturing and shipping. GW could have easily made softcover and hardcover, make the latter the collector's item, the former a gamer's item. A spiral bound softback with plastic covers holds up amazingly well. My previous sisters book was scans of the two White Dwarfs printed on the best paper Kinko's had, full color, spiral bound, and the two white dwarfs + printing was cheaper than the hardcover. And I'm not getting any sort of mass production discount.

The codecis and supplements are being reduced in value. They are containing a higher volume of pictures, which are of little to no value; see the fine repository of fine photos on this site for a wider variety of inspiration and much more talented painters. The fluff is free on 3 different wikis, it's value is marginal. Plus, fluff from Black Library is WAY cheaper.

Codecis and supplements are thus game books. That content is being diminished greatly with the latest two major books seeing more units deleted than added. On top of that, the quality of the content is dropping and not being actively supported.

So from a pure rational and logical view, the value of the recent codecis and supplements is much lower than previous editions. This without even going into the wide spread that is the pricing of digital content.

Dislike is better. Intensely dislike maybe but better than hate. Your poll should cover other options letting someone say they don't dislike GW. I dislike GW but there are many that don't. Some of the choices are to specific and leave out connected problems. Do I dislike that Tau and Eldar were overpowered compared to DA and Chaos? Yes, but is that the point that I disliked imbalance? No, I have always disliked GWs lack of balance and it is getting worse but I also dislike things like the tyranid dex for being a poor product (bland, lazy, etc) requiring the purchasing of dataslates (more money) to try to get a decent dex (that is two garbage dexes in a row).

The prices - Your choice of a few summers ago is not the only issue with prices. Better would have been more a generic statement about constant price increases, going to finecast to save money but prices increase, switching to hardcovers to increase profits further, etc.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

Such as....
The Battle Brother broken combos?

Not a company policy and I hear about it more online than actually see it. Besides, as a non-competetive player I can choose to not play people who want to run the latest cheese nonsense. I've always got more models to paint instead.
Do you not like to go to tournaments? Because with these broken combos tourneys are really just... differnet. Also do you not see the problem in broken deathstars? I mean honestly, GW could do a few simple things that eliminate all these deathstars, but they dont. Which also brings up another point, do you not see a problem in GWs refusal to listen to there fanbase?

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
When rulebooks got crazy price increase just because of hardback?

Hard back, full color and the paper is of a higher quality.
Oh and you think thats worth double the price?

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
When they overpowered Codexes making broken and dumb deathstars no one likes to go up against?

You mean things players do that go against "the Spirit of the Game" by making choices that are only fun for them and no one else?
To some people, its fun to make the best lists you can. In most games, that "best list" isnt totally over powered and can be beat, but in 40k, if you want to win, you can. Point and click. Is it against the game to try and win? No, only 40k.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
When the said f**k to balanced 40k and released escalation and stronghold assualt?

Only part about those books that are bad is the D-Weapon rules. Everything else is pretty balanced. FW's alternate D-weapon rules for the Heresy stuff that's rumored to exist fixes that though.
Ya, and its the D weapons that ruin it. Really GW? Really?

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
With 50$ supplements with one page of rules?

3 pages of core rules, more than a dozen pages of fluff, several pages of miniatures, new art, altar of war missions (which ARE rules) and Eternal War missions (which are ALSO rules). Oh and some of the books have had stuff for Apoc, Cities of Death and/or Planetstrike. Quit marginalizing the whole thing into an understatement that basically lies about all that's in the books.
Again, do you find thats worth 50 dollars? as much as a codex thats FULL of rules, and has the fluff? The percentage of people who buy the books for the altar of war missions, Eternal war missions, Apoc stuff, Cities of Death, and Planetstrike to the amount of people who buy it for the rules and fluff is just rediculous.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
How do you just turn your head at that?

By not blowing it out of proportion or flat out lying about what's in the product?

Really? With everything you just said it seems that you find no flaws in 40k, as i just pointed out the biggest ones and you denied every bit of it. And if you honestly believe 40k to be great with no flaws or problems.... just wow.....