And by that I mean game breakingly good. Primaris Psykers are the most broken unit now ever. Dirt cheap, got the best psychic discipline (divinitation), can be MASTERY LEVEL 2 and on top of all that, DO NOT occupy force org slots!

Every IG army will be toting 3 of these guys now - to the point where for the next 5 years Astra Militarum will be synonymous with Primaris Psykers, in the same way CSM is with the hellturkey now. Because thats upto 6 div powers buffing your army. Eldar WISH they could carry around as much disposable psychic powers as IG lol. They have to drop 200 points (admittedly, 25 points less) to get 6 psychic powers per turn and that also occupies both their HQ slots, although their psykers are admittedly tougher (same amount of wounds as the 3 primaris psykers, but ghosthelm and 4++ saves as opposed to the IG's 5++). But then they're out of HQs and cannot select anything else, while IG can still bring on 6 Russes where of course everyone and their mother will be bringing pask and his triple heavy bolter + heavy stubber LR punisher, and this is just the HQ section. Finally, while Eldar do not really need psyhic powers to buff their army (unless you are a master strategist and have some crazy genius combo planned) IG benefit from crazy force multipliers when the right divination powers are used. Leman Russ squadrons, 3 Heavy Weapon teams, CCS with MOO, PCS, 50 man conscript blobs, the increase in effectiveness is staggering.

Crazy.

I think you'll find that in practice, six powers is not quite as useful as you think it will be.

6 powers on a soft and squishy army.
Really not a great impact.

Not really.

I mean, they're not BAD, but they're not ridiculously overpowered either. This mostly comes from the fact that they're stuck with book powers (unlike eldar, who have some pretty interesting codex powers), they can only be mastery level 2, and, despite being ICs, they're still rather fragile.

More importantly, though, look at what they're buffing. Giving combi-weapon sternguard prescience is pretty good. Giving lasguns prescience means that you have slightly better lasguns... still just lasguns.

So yeah, they'll pass out buffs, and they're not bad because of it, but they're in line with other buff givers in the codex like priests and CCSs, not some brave new world of supercheese.

Plus, you could already ally in cheap psykers from the inquisition book, and people were already not doing that.

 Ailaros wrote:
Not really.

I mean, they're not BAD, but they're not ridiculously overpowered either. This mostly comes from the fact that they're stuck with book powers (unlike eldar, who have some pretty interesting codex powers), they can only be mastery level 2, and, despite being ICs, they're still rather fragile.

More importantly, though, look at what they're buffing. Giving combi-weapon sternguard prescience is pretty good. Giving lasguns prescience means that you have slightly better lasguns... still just lasguns.

So yeah, they'll pass out buffs, and they're not bad because of it, but they're in line with other buff givers in the codex like priests and CCSs, not some brave new world of supercheese.

Plus, you could already ally in cheap psykers from the inquisition book, and people were already not doing that.

On the flipside, why not pay 50pts for a Prescience in a shooting army? Know why not before? It was allied in, so mech lists couldn't tote around the prescience in the Chimera that wanted it. Gunline armies almost always (if not always) ran 1-2 Inquisitors + servo skulls. Now? Now you can prescience the dudes inside the Chimera. Now for the low cost of 50pts a blob of guard becomes Ld9 and is TL more often than not. FRFSRF + TL guns? To paraphrase a demotivational: "One Lasgun is diddly. But a hundred Lasguns? That's a whole lot of diddly." 30 Guard at rapid fire putting out 90 shots all but wipes a tac squad off the board, and that's a 200pt all-told investment. Coincidentally, that's about the cost of your average tool'd up tac squad + transport. They'll do even more terrible things to gaunts/orks/guardians/equivalent.

Of course, you could also TL three PCS. Because who doesn't love 4 TL Special Weapons? I do, and I wish I could more easily prescience my SM Command Squads. Or a Russ Squadron. Or a Scion squad. Or any number of heavy weapons teams.

Guard really has no lack of guns to benefit from TLing. You can very easily do a number crunch of how many more potential hits/wounds your 50pt investment gives you over simply buying another squad. If it's not worth it, don't do it. But I assume it's usually pretty worth it.

They are good. Prescience for 50 points? Count me in, when I dont have to shame myself by pacting with Inquisition.

But thinking they can offer six powers to army? Eh, quantity isnt quality. Lets keep it sane and useful for the army. New psykers are good, but still squishy and not mastermages

I've said it before and I will say it again It's borken

Primaris Psyker Level 2 75 Points
Primaris Pskyer Level 2 75 Points
Primaris Psyker Level 2 75 Points
Inquisitor w/ Servo Skull 56 points
Inquisitor w/ Servo Skull 56 points


Total : 266 Points for Level 1 btw , 341 for Level 2

I hope you like trying to kill that because that's 6 Rolls on the Divination Chart 5 Auto Prescience, 3 More Powers in Addition to that.

Pask w/ Leman Russ Punisher , Heavy Bolters, Camo Netting, Spotlight, Relic Armour 224

Leman Russ Punisher w/ H. Bolter, Camo Netting, Spotlight, Relic Armour 184

Leman Russ Exterminator w/ H. Bolter Camo, Netting, Spotlight , Relic Armour 184

Total : 598 points

HQ :
Tank Commander w/ Leman Russ Exterminator Same as Above ,but 204

Exterminator 174

Exterminator 174

Total 552

Total = 1406

Yaay I have even gotten to my Elites, Troops or H. Support.

That's why it's broken.

Another way to look at that, you've not even gotten to troops, and you're at 1406.

Good luck at 1500.

What's with the love for Exterminators? Am I missing something? It's a couple autocannons. Woohoo? And they're already TL.

Not really, seeming you have nothing to use those powers on, and so will be wasting a lot of powers a turn.

Plus it is really easy to kill those div psykers unless you get a sizable troop unit, which costs a good amount of points that you aren't spending on stuff to get buffed

Hollismason wrote:
I've said it before and I will say it again It's borken

Primaris Psyker Level 2 75 Points
Primaris Pskyer Level 2 75 Points
Primaris Psyker Level 2 75 Points
Inquisitor w/ Servo Skull 56 points
Inquisitor w/ Servo Skull 56 points


Total : 256 Points ,

I hope you like trying to kill that because that's 6 Rolls on the Divination Chart 5 Auto Prescience, 3 More Powers in Addition to that.

Pask w/ Leman Russ Punisher , Heavy Bolters, Camo Netting, Spotlight, Relic Armour 224

Leman Russ Punisher w/ H. Bolter, Camo Netting, Spotlight, Relic Armour 184

Leman Russ Exterminator w/ H. Bolter Camo, Netting, Spotlight , Relic Armour 184

Total : 598 points

HQ :
Tank Commander w/ Leman Russ Exterminator Same as Above ,but 204

Exterminator 174

Exterminator 174

Total 552

Total = 1406

Yaay I have even gotten to my Elites, Troops or H. Support.

That's why it's broken.

So how exactly do you plan on scoring?

 Ailaros wrote:
This mostly comes from the fact that they're stuck with book powers

I'd hardly call getting divination, the best powers in the game, being "stuck with" something.

they can only be mastery level 2

Yeah, those poor primaris psykers, they don't get to be higher ML than every non-farseer/special character psyker in the game.

More importantly, though, look at what they're buffing.

Yeah, let's look at that: they're buffing tanks, special weapon command squads, etc. Why would you evaluate them based on buffing lasguns instead of real units?

Plus, you could already ally in cheap psykers from the inquisition book, and people were already not doing that.

Err, lol? Divination inquisitors are an auto-include, the only people that aren't using them are people who are afraid of being labeled WAAC, and people who play in tournaments that don't allow it.

Hollismason wrote:
I've said it before and I will say it again It's borken

Primaris Psyker Level 2 75 Points
Primaris Pskyer Level 2 75 Points
Primaris Psyker Level 2 75 Points
Inquisitor w/ Servo Skull 56 points
Inquisitor w/ Servo Skull 56 points


Total : 256 Points ,

Err... 75 +75 +75 + 58 + 58 (25 + 30 + 3 = 58) = 341
You're a little off.

Prescience when combines with orders is fething deadly. Now that we can ignore cover, shoot and run, precision shot, split fire and get tank hunter at will primaris psykers can indeed be freaking nasty.

Biophysical wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Primaris Psyker Level 2 75 Points
Primaris Pskyer Level 2 75 Points
Primaris Psyker Level 2 75 Points
Inquisitor w/ Servo Skull 56 points
Inquisitor w/ Servo Skull 56 points

Total : 256 Points ,

Err... 75 +75 +75 + 58 + 58 (25 + 30 + 3 = 58) = 341
You're a little off.

Yeah, that's a lot of points just to make some twin-linking.

And it's 5 squishy models.

Plus, you're still not guaranteed to get any particular power (other than prescience), and you're not guaranteed to get the power off when you need it. I foresee perils tests in the near future.

And psyocculums...

---

And think about it like this. You spend 50 points to get 10 lasgun hits. If you spent another 75 points to get another 5 lasguns hits, sometimes, then you'd still be faced with the fact that you could have spent 50 points for 10 more lasgun hits.

It's the classic guard doctrine - it's better to just take more stuff than to try and make the stuff you brought better.

Biophysical wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
I've said it before and I will say it again It's borken

Primaris Psyker Level 2 75 Points
Primaris Pskyer Level 2 75 Points
Primaris Psyker Level 2 75 Points
Inquisitor w/ Servo Skull 56 points
Inquisitor w/ Servo Skull 56 points


Total : 256 Points ,

Err... 75 +75 +75 + 58 + 58 (25 + 30 + 3 = 58) = 341
You're a little off.

I know!! So embarrassed it's what I get for doing it in my head really fast!


Seriously , their really broken. Now that's just messing around. What happens when you start showing up with 3 Wyverns 2 Manticores and 3 Primaris Psykers. That's really nasty.

Basically, with some good rolling AM can alpha strike you first turn with templates.

 Ailaros wrote:
and you're not guaranteed to get the power off when you need it.

Yeah, those LD 9/10 psykers are just so unreliable...

I foresee perils tests in the near future.

Err, lol?

And think about it like this. You spend 50 points to get 10 lasgun hits. If you spent another 75 points to get another 5 lasguns hits, sometimes, then you'd still be faced with the fact that you could have spent 50 points for 10 more lasgun hits.

Or you could actually consider more powerful units instead of assuming that those psykers are wasting their time on basic infantry squads. How about considering inquisitors with special grenades in 50-man blobs, Coteaz in a plasma squad making a 12" radius where deep striking is banned, or divination psykers boosting LR Executioner squads?

I think in tank armies they will be invaluable. Getting 3 russes twinlinking, or giving 3 basis twin linking. Really upgrades their damage output. Also allows you to take advantage of barrage from out of LOS more safely.

Also, 1403? Depending on your points that still leaves plenty of bodies to field for the imperial guard.

3 Manticores = 510

Pask Squadron = 598

5 Divinations = 266

That still leaves Plllllenty of points left over, like seriously you can get a 50 man blob of Conscripts with a priest behind a Aegis Defense line for 225 points.

Anything that is that powerful and does not take up an FOC is broken. How are you going to shoot those Primaris hidden in the backfield behind Manticores inside a Platoon Squad w/ a medpack ? That's basically 5 ablative wounds that are feel no pain, throw in a priest they're fearless!!

Hollismason wrote:
Also, 1403? Depending on your points that still leaves plenty of bodies to field for the imperial guard.

3 Manticores = 510

Pask Squadron = 598

5 Divinations = 266

That still leaves Plllllenty of points left over, like seriously you can get a 50 man blob of Conscripts with a priest behind a Aegis Defense line for 225 points.

355. You also need to pay for the two infantry squads and PCS.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Also, 1403? Depending on your points that still leaves plenty of bodies to field for the imperial guard.

3 Manticores = 510

Pask Squadron = 598

5 Divinations = 266

That still leaves Plllllenty of points left over, like seriously you can get a 50 man blob of Conscripts with a priest behind a Aegis Defense line for 225 points.

355. You also need to pay for the two infantry squads and PCS.

Also, you would need a second troop choice.

Wonderful more bodies! Now let me stick my psykers in a Platoon Squad w/ a Med Pack and a Priest who also does not take up a FOC. Yes. Straight up , looking at them on the level they are amazing. They become a little to powerful when you realize it's really easy to keep them safe and their a utility unit.

You will straight up see Alpha Strike w/ Templates Astra armies. It's to powerful to ignore to be able to drop 3 to 9 twin linked ST 10 AP4 templates that because of servo skulls, roll one less dice.

Hollismason wrote:
Wonderful more bodies! Now let me stick my psykers in a Platoon Squad w/ a Med Pack and a Priest who also does not take up a FOC.

So now you need five priests. One for each squad with a psyker in it and two for the conscript blobs. Plus a medpac, which is what, 10pts? 15pts?

So 355 is a blob plus priest. Add in the medpac and priest (not sure why you're hiding the primaris in a 5 man PCS rather than 20 man blob of guard). You're bordering a 400pt troops choice. One troops choice. So I hope you're playing at point levels of 2200+.

No because you can join 5 Psykers to one squad or any multiples there in. They're independent Characters. They could form their own unit if they wanted to.

Platoon Command Squad 55 Points w/ Medipack , 1 Priest 25 Points, 3 Psykers 150 Points ( I wouldn't actually do this just saying)
Yay my whole squad has feel no pain!! Oh and I have a priest! So if you do charge, I can take a check to reroll my invulnerables.

You need two troops for a legal list.

I don´t get why people seem to hate lasguns so much. I found that they are one of the most powerful things in guard. I mean they are just S3, but they have a HUGE amount of shots and prescience effectivelly doubles the hits and wounds, most MEQs and TEQs will just melt when facing a 50-man blob of guardsmen.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
You need two troops for a legal list.

Great again, more bodies!! Yes, Imperial Guard are dirt cheap. We can keep going back and forth but Imperial Guard are a horde army and are dirt cheap to purchase. So saying " Well you need troops..." is not a great argument and I feel like every time your just gonna keep coming up with bizzarre scenarios and argueing against my example and just thrown out there theory. We're not debating a armies composition we're debating whether Primaris Psykers are over powered and they totally are but here you go.


Two Infantry Platoons Auto Cannons 120 Points
Platoon Command Squad Medpack 55 Points
Priest 25

200 Points


Two Infantry Platoons Auto Cannons 120 Points
Platoon Command Squad Medpack 55 Points
Priest 25

200 Points

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
This mostly comes from the fact that they're stuck with book powers

I'd hardly call getting divination, the best powers in the game, being "stuck with" something.

Compared to old pick and mix powers, you're only getting to pick one power, prescience. There is an argument to be made that the BRB power rolling system has its downsides as a result.

they can only be mastery level 2

Yeah, those poor primaris psykers, they don't get to be higher ML than every non-farseer/special character psyker in the game.

Listing limitations does not imply there is any desire for better here.

Plus, you could already ally in cheap psykers from the inquisition book, and people were already not doing that.

Err, lol? Divination inquisitors are an auto-include, the only people that aren't using them are people who are afraid of being labeled WAAC, and people who play in tournaments that don't allow it.

This is a load of toss. At the very least, in a highly competitive list that is Mechanised or already making use of Primaris Psykers instead, Inquisitors are definitely not at the top of list of things to include, since they're a liability with their limitations or just not needed.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
and you're not guaranteed to get the power off when you need it.

Yeah, those LD 9/10 psykers are just so unreliable...

not guaranteed =/= unreliable

Plus, 1 in 6 times he casts a power he fails it, so on average, almost once a game, or every 3-4 turns if they're ML2, per psyker. It could happen at a critical point, given Murphy's Law.

wth are Primaris Psykers better than warlocks? This makes me sad.

I don't think they're as good as Warlocks. I mean they get a Invulnerable but it's 5+ and their 50 points but they get to roll on 3 really good charts.

[quote=Hollismason 590111 6730464 null
Great again, more bodies!! Yes, Imperial Guard are dirt cheap. We can keep going back and forth but Imperial Guard are a horde army and are dirt cheap to purchase. So saying " Well you need troops..." is not a great argument and I feel like every time your just gonna keep coming up with bizzarre scenarios and argueing against my example and just thrown out there theory. We're not debating a armies composition we're debating whether Primaris Psykers are over powered and they totally are but here you go.


Two Infantry Platoons Auto Cannons 120 Points
Platoon Command Squad Medpack 55 Points
Priest 25

200 Points


Two Infantry Platoons Auto Cannons 120 Points
Platoon Command Squad Medpack 55 Points
Priest 25

200 Points

Anything that increases your ballistic skill immediately increases you armies ability to kill things. Having 5 models that can basically make it so a unit is 50% more effective? ( I think that's correct. I'm not good with percentage figures).

It especially becomes more effective when on the first turn you can lay down 3 to 9 ST 10 Ordance Barrage Large Templates on the enemy is pretty effective.

Hollismason wrote:
Anything that increases your ballistic skill immediately increases you armies ability to kill things. Having 5 models that can basically make it so a unit is 50% more effective? ( I think that's correct. I'm not good with percentage figures).

It especially becomes more effective when on the first turn you can lay down 3 to 9 ST 10 Ordance Barrage Large Templates on the enemy is pretty effective.

The percentage accuracy increase depends on your base accuracy. A BS3 model will gain a 50% increase in accuracy from a re-roll, a BS4 model will gain less and a BS2 more. Blast weapon scatter makes things more complicated.

I thought it was 50% for a BS3 so YAY! I was correct.

There is a point per efficiency factor to consider. 10 lasguns hit 5 times for 50pts in an infantry squad. Paying 50pts for a potential 5 more hits is stupid when you could pay 50pts for ten more lasguns. You have to consider if what you're paying for is cheaper to just buy a second rather than paying the 50pts for a TL.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
There is a point per efficiency factor to consider. 10 lasguns hit 5 times for 50pts in an infantry squad. Paying 50pts for a potential 5 more hits is stupid when you could pay 50pts for ten more lasguns. You have to consider if what you're paying for is cheaper to just buy a second rather than paying the 50pts for a TL.

That's why I don't think anyone who is arguing it's a good option is doing so on the basis of using it on basic guardsmen squads as opposed to Leman Russ Punishers.

It also get's exponentially better with Russ squads because of the squadron rules.

Chrysis wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
There is a point per efficiency factor to consider. 10 lasguns hit 5 times for 50pts in an infantry squad. Paying 50pts for a potential 5 more hits is stupid when you could pay 50pts for ten more lasguns. You have to consider if what you're paying for is cheaper to just buy a second rather than paying the 50pts for a TL.

That's why I don't think anyone who is arguing it's a good option is doing so on the basis of using it on basic guardsmen squads as opposed to Leman Russ Punishers.

This^. There is a big difference between presciencing 10 lasguns (which is what some people in this thread assume we'll doing with psykers) and presciencing an entire Leman Russ squadron, a Heavy Weapon Team of ignoring cover Las or Auto cannons, or a Manticore. Hell, Prescience on the Deathstrike is worth it for a turn to make sure you don't get a 12 inch scatter and hit nothing.

Another thing to consider here is points ranges. Of course in a 1000 point game it isn't worth it take all 3 of them! You probably only want to take 1, maybe 2 if you have the proper units to use it on. You only want to use it on this unit of "10 lasguns" people keep referencing as a very last resort.

Hollismason wrote:Anything that increases your ballistic skill immediately increases you armies ability to kill things. Having 5 models that can basically make it so a unit is 50% more effective?

Read:

Ailaros wrote:And think about it like this. You spend 50 points to get 10 lasgun hits. If you spent another 75 points to get another 5 lasguns hits, sometimes, then you'd still be faced with the fact that you could have spent 50 points for 10 more lasgun hits.

It's the classic guard doctrine - it's better to just take more stuff than to try and make the stuff you brought better.

Spending 75 points to make something do 50% more damage only begins to become worth it on units that cost over 150 points. Even then, you're still just looking at killing power. Taking duplicate units has other benefits as well, like being more durable, having more flexibility, taking up more field position, etc.

If you need a concrete example, compare these two things:

Eradicator - lascannon/multimeltas
Eradicator - lascannon/multimeltas
Eradicator - lascannon/multimeltas

and

Eradicator - lascannon/multimeltas
Eradicator - lascannon/multimeltas
Primaris - lvl 2
Primaris - lvl 2

Even if you assume that you get prescience off every turn (which you won't), they have the same amount of firepower, except the top list has three pieces of AV14, while the second only has two and two squishy psykers. The first list is still better.

And then when you remember that prescience doesn't always go off, and sometimes it just causes the psyker's brain to explode, then the distinction becomes even more obvious.

You're probably not going to see the benefit of a prescience psyker in a guard army until you start talking about units that cost more than ~250 points. Buffing a big blob or a 3x squad of russes, perhaps its worth it, but they're not just always worth it all the time, and they're definitely not grossly overpowered.

Chrysis wrote:

That's why I don't think anyone who is arguing it's a good option is doing so on the basis of using it on basic guardsmen squads as opposed to Leman Russ Punishers.

A punisher is barely worth it, paying 7pts a shot with the main cannon while a psyker buffs it for 5pts a shot. Unless you consider the AV14 platform and LoS opportunities to be worth points as well.

A Punisher that has Precision Shot and Rending, um... gonna have to disagree with you on that.

Hollismason wrote:
A Punisher that has Precision Shot and Rending, um... gonna have to disagree with you on that.

Punisher =/= Paskisher. Reading comprehension.

Pask also gets less benefit, being BS4 and having Preferred Enemy.

If he's your warlord.

Hollismason wrote:
If he's your warlord.

Why wouldn't he be? A preferred enemy super tank is the reason to take Pask.

May want to take a Command Squad w/ Kurovs Aquila. It give's friendly units with in 6 Preffered Enemy. Warlord traits are pretty good.

The primaris is clearly strong. A 50pt Twinlink on a stick is going to be super useful, especially one that can hide as well as an IC can.

That said, we've had a very similar option with inquistors available for a while, and nobody needs five different units twin linked.

I think this will make gunlines stronger in more casual settings, where people tend to ignore the online stuff. For raw power, I can think of a lot of times where you'd want the extra PP, even in addition to two inquisitors.

Add in the different orders abilities, the ability to get preferred enemy on units with in 6inches.

Imperial's got a really strong gun line. Oh and Castellan Creed who rolls twice can issue 3 orders a turn and sit semi safely in a Chimera is like like 205.

Seriously guys you have to take it easy.. try them out, we need facts not fiction. Apart from that they are ok but not OP. OP is something that for its points cost it is great alone. A heldrake is OP and that's not me playing chaos. But a primaris psyker by himslef for 75 pts isn't something. Show us facts about combo them with something other. Yes Div is the best thing out there, along with telepathy prob but, as others mentioned already, an inquisitor even with lvl1 has better and more useful upgrades. But that's just me.

Most events are going to a two detatchment max type setup so being able to get divination without Inquisition is good.

Also everyone keeps talking Precience but getting multiple chances to Misfortune is worthwhile in the current meta. Or 4++ invulnerable on your blob. Or being able to delay vendettas in an air war. Etc.

I wouldn't go so far as to call them overpowered. Strong? Definitely. Worth taking? No doubt. Over powered? No. Versus guardsmen there is no 'save the character by putting them in a team.' With a 5+ save, just melt the whole team. Especially as Tau or Eldar. Unless you're willing to dump the points for Ogryns to protect them I'll just remove them. And as a Saim Hann player, I WILL see you by turn two, and you WILL be dead shortly thereafter.

That said, they will be terror in a chimera behind a Pask Punisher for much rending fun. But that's the punisher that's OP, not the Psyker.

Still worse than jetseer. Squisher, slower, harder to hide, ld9 and not 10, no awesome eldar powers, no ml3. Yep, they're powerful but there are existing ones that are better and noone's too tragic bout that.

Primaris psykers will buff russes greatly. It's now worth taking a punisher with pask + some other tank so prescience on pask's punisher is brutal. They'll find their place in platoons also. Lots of s7 tl ignore-cover shots. Annoying, eh? *looks at eldar and tau once again*

They're good but not really broken, probably a bit underpriced. +10 pts and they're fine.

Hollismason wrote:
Wonderful more bodies! Now let me stick my psykers in a Platoon Squad w/ a Med Pack and a Priest who also does not take up a FOC. Yes. Straight up , looking at them on the level they are amazing. They become a little to powerful when you realize it's really easy to keep them safe and their a utility unit.

You will straight up see Alpha Strike w/ Templates Astra armies. It's to powerful to ignore to be able to drop 3 to 9 twin linked ST 10 AP4 templates that because of servo skulls, roll one less dice.

That's dangerous to put them in the PCS, why one Colossus blast will instant kill everything....oh wait. Seriously PCS is no place for such a "broken" unit. If it is so awesome people will target them, you have to put them in a blob squad or conscript squad for the LoS.

So couldn't Eldar get 2 psykers with guide and prescience each riding around on jetbikes? Isn't that a lot more dangerous? I've never heard anyone say they are broken because of their psykers. Yes a prescienced Pask Punisher squad is dangerous. Yes a prescienced blob with priests with ignores cover will be awesome, but they are deathstar points levels so yeah they are supposed to be powerful right?

I think I might still run my DA librarian with powerfield generator, prescience and 4++ which I don't have to hope to get. You wouldn't believe how tough a AV14 tank or tank squadron with a 4++ is to kill.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Eldar WISH they could carry around as much disposable psychic powers as IG lol. 

That's cute, but no. Silly Mon-keigh. Farseers are comparable, but much better. Having a decent save, 3 wounds, a ghosthelm, and acess to runes etc. Are primaris only a single wound? You know you have a 1/6 chance of rolling perils, right? Pretty high chance of that happening over the course of a 7 turn game.

The benefits of the Primaris is not so much the access to divination, but what it can be used with. In conjunction with the orders available, and actual units that they can buff.

Eldar lose most of the benefit of having such a good psyker with everything being twin-linked as BS4 anyways. Guard on the other hand...

There is too much pointless incorrect flame running in both directions. The psykers have 2 wounds.

I think their ability to roll other powers is also a massive boon. But of course (like it was for Nids in 5ed) it's risky. See how it pans out.

A good question would be; for the reliable primary power, what would be good targets? Big Blobs. Executioner. Plasma PCS?

Still waiting for the internet to figure out that they can take a 50 man flashlight blob. Prescience them, Gate of infinity them 24" to within rapid fire range, give the "Take Aim" order and drop 100 dice with reroll that precision shot on a 6 and put all those precision hits on the psykers in opponants death stars.

 Ailaros wrote:
And think about it like this. You spend 50 points to get 10 lasgun hits. If you spent another 75 points to get another 5 lasguns hits, sometimes, then you'd still be faced with the fact that you could have spent 50 points for 10 more lasgun hits.

It's the classic guard doctrine - it's better to just take more stuff than to try and make the stuff you brought better.

Yeah, in some armies all it does is increase force concentration at cost to the total size of the force. Can take it or leave it. It gets more interesting in armies that are built diversely since then it lets you decide during the game which part of your firepower you want to increase. With multiple types of offensive units you don't normally know in advance what you'll need the most and you can't cheaply expand everything, so being able to flexibly apply buffs might be more useful. Of course that isn't how my army is laid out so I think I just talked myself out of using psykers.

Good luck deepstriking a 50-strong squad. From my experience as an ork, when you roll - 'ere we go - with a wierdboy attacked to 30 boyz - it's better to reroll this. First you have to deepstrike a hellhuge unit which is gona likely be too dangerous and not good by no means unless you're very lucky. Yep ig can get a no-scatter gerar but it's quite expensive and rather slow to deliver. Than you're clustered up and any template is gona murder too much bodies.

 koooaei wrote:
Good luck deepstriking a 50-strong squad. From my experience as an ork, when you roll - 'ere we go - with a wierdboy attacked to 30 boyz - it's better to reroll this. First you have to deepstrike a hellhuge unit which is gona likely be too dangerous and not good by no means unless you're very lucky. Yep ig can get a no-scatter gerar but it's quite expensive and rather slow to deliver. Than you're clustered up and any template is gona murder too much bodies.

Ally in a land speeder storm with the relay. Also covers the troops tax for taking SM allies.

dadakkaest wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Good luck deepstriking a 50-strong squad. From my experience as an ork, when you roll - 'ere we go - with a wierdboy attacked to 30 boyz - it's better to reroll this. First you have to deepstrike a hellhuge unit which is gona likely be too dangerous and not good by no means unless you're very lucky. Yep ig can get a no-scatter gerar but it's quite expensive and rather slow to deliver. Than you're clustered up and any template is gona murder too much bodies.

Ally in a land speeder storm with the relay. Also covers the troops tax for taking SM allies.

So the plan relies on:
The survivability of one Av10 vehicle out front near the enemies lines,
2 successful Psychic tests,
1 successful Order test (which also requires the ordering squad to be close enough),
And for the target to be T6 or under.

And then you kiss the squad goodbye, as a tightly bunched blob of Guardsmen in the open will never last a turn.

Can't see it being usefull.

In my last few games, my primaris psykers were the most effective things on the table. 30 guardsmen, prescience, FRFSRF- that's enough to kill a riptide... who had misfortune cast on him! But yeah, I can agree that these guys are very, very powerful. However, it takes very little to kill one- if there really bugging you than just shoot at his unit. He will die.

If points are a concern, why not stay at ML1. You already get the most useful power.

What's the LD? LD9 warrants some mastery level 2.

Belly wrote:
You know you have a 1/6 chance of rolling perils, right?

1/18, There are 36 possible rolls with 2d6 (6*6=36) and 2 of them result in perils. 2/36 = 1/18.

Still risky if they only have 1 wound. In casual games I play with 3 to 5 warlocks and usually lose at least 1 over the course of the game due to perils.

Making them ML 2 would double the odds to 1/9 per turn if you cast 2 powers per turn.

And if you're using 3 of these guys... you'll probably lose 1 to perils every game.

11% chance a turn?

It's not awful...it's almost guaranteed to give up a killpoint or 2 every game.

4 turns is 16 powers with 2 ML2s.

Just as a counter point to those mentioning that paying so much for prescience is barely worth it. 4 words for you my friends: Foreboding (on a blob squad), forewarning (on any blob squad, tank squadron, artillery squadron you want to keep alive), misfortune (on anything you are shooting), and best of all- Perfect timing (hello russes, basilisks, manticores etc)... AND THEN they get to cast prescience...
If rolling on divination 8 times do you really think you will roll precognition and scyers gaze 8 times (10 with an allied in BA, DA or matis warrior libby if you really want to)? Really?
If prescience made them 'barely worth it', prescience, ld 9, and a very high chance for one out of the above 4 surely puts them into the 'worth it' category.

If not playing against meq, a perfect timing, prescienced manticore would be devastating!

 Raxmei wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
And think about it like this. You spend 50 points to get 10 lasgun hits. If you spent another 75 points to get another 5 lasguns hits, sometimes, then you'd still be faced with the fact that you could have spent 50 points for 10 more lasgun hits.

It's the classic guard doctrine - it's better to just take more stuff than to try and make the stuff you brought better.

Yeah, in some armies all it does is increase force concentration at cost to the total size of the force. Can take it or leave it. It gets more interesting in armies that are built diversely since then it lets you decide during the game which part of your firepower you want to increase. With multiple types of offensive units you don't normally know in advance what you'll need the most and you can't cheaply expand everything, so being able to flexibly apply buffs might be more useful. Of course that isn't how my army is laid out so I think I just talked myself out of using psykers.

This guy gets it. Tau were my second army after Guard, and one of the things that was really neat about them (before they sucked in 5th or were absurd in 6th) is that you don't need enough stuff to kill everything, because pathfinders could make good the unit that you really needed to be good that particular turn. Enter Divination Inquisitors and Primaris Psykers. They're cheap, easy to hide, and while it is arguably better to take more units for the points than to buff them, but with Div Psykers, you're buffing the thing you need most in a given turn. Need to kill troops? Buff the Punisher or blob. Need to kill tanks? Buff the Vanquisher. The increased power is useful, the increased power wherever you need it in a given turn is really the best thing about it. This utility is increased even more when you get a chance at Misfortune or Forwarning.

Makes one think the Divination powers probably are going to get a bit of a haircut in 7th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also for the Perils conversation, Primaris Psykers have 2 wounds. So if you have three at level 2 casting 2 powers each a turn, you'll probably get 2 Perils over the course of the game. If it's the same guy, then it's a kill point, if it's not, it probably won't matter. After the first Perils, you can always cut back on casting from the wounded Psyker if you think one kill point is going to decide the game. You'd still have a lot of psykers still working.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Just as a counter point to those mentioning that paying so much for prescience is barely worth it. 4 words for you my friends: Foreboding (on a blob squad), forewarning (on any blob squad, tank squadron, artillery squadron you want to keep alive), misfortune (on anything you are shooting), and best of all- Perfect timing (hello russes, basilisks, manticores etc)... AND THEN they get to cast prescience...
If rolling on divination 8 times do you really think you will roll precognition and scyers gaze 8 times (10 with an allied in BA, DA or matis warrior libby if you really want to)? Really?
If prescience made them 'barely worth it', prescience, ld 9, and a very high chance for one out of the above 4 surely puts them into the 'worth it' category.

If not playing against meq, a perfect timing, prescienced manticore would be devastating!

I don't have the book on me, but out of curiosity, what is the warp charge cost of those powers?

Everything in divination is WC1

Biophysical wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also for the Perils conversation, Primaris Psykers have 2 wounds. So if you have three at level 2 casting 2 powers each a turn, you'll probably get 2 Perils over the course of the game. If it's the same guy, then it's a kill point, if it's not, it probably won't matter. After the first Perils, you can always cut back on casting from the wounded Psyker if you think one kill point is going to decide the game. You'd still have a lot of psykers still working.

Ah well that changes things. Perils isn't an issue if they have 2 wounds. So as long as you have something worth buffing, these guys are useful.

Hollismason wrote:

Biophysical wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
I've said it before and I will say it again It's borken

Primaris Psyker Level 2 75 Points
Primaris Pskyer Level 2 75 Points
Primaris Psyker Level 2 75 Points
Inquisitor w/ Servo Skull 56 points
Inquisitor w/ Servo Skull 56 points


Total : 256 Points ,

Err... 75 +75 +75 + 58 + 58 (25 + 30 + 3 = 58) = 341
You're a little off.

I know!! So embarrassed it's what I get for doing it in my head really fast!


Seriously , their really broken. Now that's just messing around. What happens when you start showing up with 3 Wyverns 2 Manticores and 3 Primaris Psykers. That's really nasty.

Basically, with some good rolling AM can alpha strike you first turn with templates.

That isn't threatening because Wyverns are already twin-linked, any wyverns and manticores have poor AP. I mean I guess if anyone takes blobs of Orks or Tyranids you will destroy them, but manticores and wyverns are hardly broken with or without the help of psykers.

If you are going to twin-link anything twin-link something useful like 50 guardsmen with plasma guns and lascannons given the FRFSRF with a priest using his chants to get rerolls to hit. 505 for the whole unit (not including the PCS) which gets 60 lasgun shots, 5 plasma gun shots, and 5 lascannon shots at 24" which all reroll hits and wounds. At 12" you get 95 lasgun/laspistol shots, 10 plasma gun shots, and 5 lascannon shots. With that firepower you can kill like 18 marines or two and a half riptides in a single turn, it is pretty much point, click, and remove the enemy unit, although I would probably change out the lascannons for autocannons dropping the price by 50 points, and maybe drop a few plasma guns for grenade launchers. That might be a bit overkill, but the general point is twin-link useful stuff, especially stuff that might kill itself a lot like plasma.

When compared strictly to Inquisitors, the Primaris Psykers aren't as good IMO due to the lack of wargear options, LD10, and servo skulls. They do get the ML2 though which is nice.

When you combine the two, however, you can have up to 3 prescience psykers along with up to 3 more that have hammerhand, rad grenades, servo skulls, daemon hammers/psycannons, liber heresius, etc...

If I'm playing a 40+ defensive blob, a Priest, Primaris, and Inquisitor with hammerhand, rad grenades (and psyk-out grenades which are pretty sweet), and servo skulls is pretty hilarious when you get assaulted by some Marines and re-roll to hit and then wound them on 3's.

I'm just waiting for 7th to take prescience out of the primaris.

That seems pretty likely to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Makes me want to not rely on it too much in the next few months so it hurts less when it's gone.

When is 7th suupposed to be coming out?

Poly Ranger wrote:
When is 7th suupposed to be coming out?

According to rumors, in the summer.

According to what I think? Two years. If there is a rules update it won't be half as big as the rumors are saying. A 6.5e at most, likely bundling Escalation and Stronghold assault in and GW making pointless "fixes" that solve nothing.

In any case, as all these rumors lack any consistency beyond other people regurgitating what they found earlier I'm not going to put any stock into any of the rumored rules shifts.

We had a good and consistent idea of many rule mechanics and some of the new additions to the lore in 6e by about this time two years ago in the last two months or so of 5e.

I see none of that now.

Don't plan around these rumors, you'll likely be disappointed.

Buttons wrote:

Hollismason wrote:

Biophysical wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
I've said it before and I will say it again It's borken

Primaris Psyker Level 2 75 Points
Primaris Pskyer Level 2 75 Points
Primaris Psyker Level 2 75 Points
Inquisitor w/ Servo Skull 56 points
Inquisitor w/ Servo Skull 56 points


Total : 256 Points ,

Err... 75 +75 +75 + 58 + 58 (25 + 30 + 3 = 58) = 341
You're a little off.

I know!! So embarrassed it's what I get for doing it in my head really fast!


Seriously , their really broken. Now that's just messing around. What happens when you start showing up with 3 Wyverns 2 Manticores and 3 Primaris Psykers. That's really nasty.

Basically, with some good rolling AM can alpha strike you first turn with templates.

That isn't threatening because Wyverns are already twin-linked, any wyverns and manticores have poor AP. I mean I guess if anyone takes blobs of Orks or Tyranids you will destroy them, but manticores and wyverns are hardly broken with or without the help of psykers.

If you are going to twin-link anything twin-link something useful like 50 guardsmen with plasma guns and lascannons given the FRFSRF with a priest using his chants to get rerolls to hit. 505 for the whole unit (not including the PCS) which gets 60 lasgun shots, 5 plasma gun shots, and 5 lascannon shots at 24" which all reroll hits and wounds. At 12" you get 95 lasgun/laspistol shots, 10 plasma gun shots, and 5 lascannon shots. With that firepower you can kill like 18 marines or two and a half riptides in a single turn, it is pretty much point, click, and remove the enemy unit, although I would probably change out the lascannons for autocannons dropping the price by 50 points, and maybe drop a few plasma guns for grenade launchers. That might be a bit overkill, but the general point is twin-link useful stuff, especially stuff that might kill itself a lot like plasma.

THIS ^ is how I run my guard platoons. I have one 50 man (can be blobbed) with 5 lascannons and 5 plasmaguns and a 30 man blob with 3 lascannons and 3 plasmaguns. These groups will be benefiting from orders and Prescienced Psykers. Alairos keeps mentioning lasguns, lasguns... who cares about the prescienced lasguns... unless i am targeting sternguard that just dropped in my face the lasguns are just bodies to protect the special and heavy weapons, twin linking will reduce my casualties to Gets Hot (i usually loose 3 guys at least over the course of a game). It means that I can effectively target anything. These guys will be able to do work!

 ductvader wrote:
I'm just waiting for 7th to take prescience out of the primaris.

^This. Prescience is too good to be a primaris power. It should also be 2 warp charges.

 Ailaros wrote:
If you need a concrete example, compare these two things:

Eradicator - lascannon/multimeltas
Eradicator - lascannon/multimeltas
Eradicator - lascannon/multimeltas

and

Eradicator - lascannon/multimeltas
Eradicator - lascannon/multimeltas
Primaris - lvl 2
Primaris - lvl 2

Even if you assume that you get prescience off every turn (which you won't), they have the same amount of firepower, except the top list has three pieces of AV14, while the second only has two and two squishy psykers. The first list is still better.

And then when you remember that prescience doesn't always go off, and sometimes it just causes the psyker's brain to explode, then the distinction becomes even more obvious.

You're probably not going to see the benefit of a prescience psyker in a guard army until you start talking about units that cost more than ~250 points. Buffing a big blob or a 3x squad of russes, perhaps its worth it, but they're not just always worth it all the time, and they're definitely not grossly overpowered.

You are purposefully making a poor comparison on the psyker side to underline your point. Let's take a normal non-HQ LR Punisher instead, to do the number crunching.

So you are looking at a 75 point investment to make your big gun and all your HBs to re-roll failed shots, compared to paying twice as much to get two of everything and another tank on the battlefield. In lists where you dont have a spare 75 points left, this is a nice way of improving your LR firepower from 1 to 1.5 by only paying 50% of what would be required to increase your LR firepower from 1 to 2. Except for one small caveat there. Twin-linking BS3 doesnt raise firepower from 1 to 1.5, but to 1.66. And in reality, if just 1 tank needs a buff, then it will usually be a level 1 psyker, which is 25 points cheaper. So you're only paying 33% and boosting your tank's output from 1 to 1.66. I call that a deal.

But if you insist on level 2 psykers, remember that they have a 1 in 6 chance to roll Forewarning as secondary power, and giving your russ a 4+ invulnerable save definitely adds to its survivability (just think what it does to a squadron of 3 russes). So its not just an increase in firepower here. Or how about that 1 in 6 chance of rolling Misfortune as secondary power? Yeah, now you get to make your Punisher TL, and enemies passing armor saves have to re-roll succesful ones. I dont even want to do the math on how devastating that volley will be. If your primaris is attached to a MOO and 4 Lascannon toting CCS instead, then Perfect Timing is what you're hoping to get and it'll be a field day hunting enemy tanks that arent completely out of LoS. Only Foreboding and Precognition suck, and even scrier's gaze is useful in allowing you to keep your valkyries from entering the board while the enemy still has a lot of skyfire/interceptor weapons active.

 herpguy wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
I'm just waiting for 7th to take prescience out of the primaris.

^This. Prescience is too good to be a primaris power. It should also be 2 warp charges.

maybe they will make Pyromancy good.

nah probably not.

Zimko wrote:

Belly wrote:
You know you have a 1/6 chance of rolling perils, right?

1/18, There are 36 possible rolls with 2d6 (6*6=36) and 2 of them result in perils. 2/36 = 1/18.

Still risky if they only have 1 wound. In casual games I play with 3 to 5 warlocks and usually lose at least 1 over the course of the game due to perils.

Making them ML 2 would double the odds to 1/9 per turn if you cast 2 powers per turn.

And if you're using 3 of these guys... you'll probably lose 1 to perils every game.

If he suffers a perils, unlike a warlock, the primaris psyker is not removed as a casualty.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:
and best of all- Perfect timing (hello russes, basilisks, manticores etc)... AND THEN they get to cast prescience...

umm no thats not gonna work. It says "the psyker and his unit". Not "a friendly unit within X inches"

I’m not sure about additional psychic levels on a Primaris. Let’s look at how the community rates divination powers by popularity.

Top tier: Prescience, Forewarning, Misfortune, Perfect timing.
Mid tier: Foreboding Precognition
Bottom tier: Scrier’s gaze

Because ½ the powers are top tier and there is only 1 scrub power it almost always makes sense to take additional powers.

Conventional perceptions of the tiers get turned around a bit for AM

Top tier: Prescience, Forewarning, Misfortune
Mid Tier: Scrier’s gaze, Foreboding
Bottom Tier: Precognition, Perfect timing.

Now only 1/3 of the powers are top tier and 1/3 are scrub powers. Let’s look at the powers as they apply to IG.

1) Foreboding is useful for a blob or plasma vets, but the psyker needs to be in the squad and most IG players don’t want to be charged. Overall it’s not that great of a power for most IG players.
2) Forewarning is what IG players are fishing for with a 4+ invo on any unit. Top tier
3) Misfortune is also a good power, but the psyker has to start his turn 24” from the target and outside a vehicle. Top tier
4) Perfect timing causes the psyker and his unit to ignore cover. It can’ only effect the psyker’s unit and thus can not effect vehicles. It’s super awesome in other armies but in AM it does the exact same thing as orders from a senior officer who doesn’t have to fish for it making it redundant and possibly not needed. If you have 2 senior officers this is a scrub power.
5) Precognition is uber on a Tzeenth deamon prince, pretty good on Coteaz, but totally craptastic on a psyker with the stat profile of a primaris .
6) Scriers’s gaze is the least popular psychic power, but It’s very important to AM who are likely to have MSU camping an objective. With 2/3 of the rolls on a mysterious objective being good rolling 3 times gives good certainty that they will benefit your backfield objective holders. Also in a non forge world meta prescience and bring it down will cause regular platoon infantry squads will murder flyers if they get a skyfire nexus That’s needed because AM now has weak anti air in a non forge world meta.

Sir Arun wrote:You are purposefully making a poor comparison on the psyker side to underline your point. Let's take a normal non-HQ LR Punisher instead, to do the number crunching.

Well, make it more abstract, then.

If we use your heavy bolter punisher as an example, the tank costs 160 points to put down 29 S5 shots. That's 160 points for 14.5 hits, under normal circumstances, which means that you pay 11 points per hit.

Now, add in a psyker, who costs 50 points and adds 7.25 hits, which is 7 points per hit.

So yes, the psyker does save you nearly 30 points (unless he's level 2, in which case, you basically break even). But that efficiency is nearly all you get from the psyker here. You don't get the extra durability that investing in 30 points worth of AV14 gets you, for example. Furthermore, the psyker has that magic 1 in 6 chance of failing his psychic test.

If you multiply the chance of failure back into that efficiency equation, it's 50 points for (7.25 x 5/6) which is 8.2 points per hit, but since you have fewer hits, the end result comes in at 50.02. Put another way, it's the exact same to spend points to give the tanks prescience with a primaris as it is to invest those points in more tanks.

tldr: there is no benefit exceeding the points cost of the psyker to taking the psyker. It's virtually perfectly balanced. At least, when talking about something as expensive as a heavy bolter punisher. For anything that costs less, it's just straight worse.


And yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if prescience got removed from primaris and put into the general pool... but it also wouldn't surprise me if it just got left in as-is either...

 schadenfreude wrote:
I’m not sure about additional psychic levels on a Primaris. Let’s look at how the community rates divination powers by popularity.

Top tier: Prescience, Forewarning, Misfortune, Perfect timing.
Mid tier: Foreboding Precognition
Bottom tier: Scrier’s gaze

Because ½ the powers are top tier and there is only 1 scrub power it almost always makes sense to take additional powers.

Conventional perceptions of the tiers get turned around a bit for AM

Top tier: Prescience, Forewarning, Misfortune
Mid Tier: Scrier’s gaze, Foreboding
Bottom Tier: Precognition, Perfect timing.

Now only 1/3 of the powers are top tier and 1/3 are scrub powers. Let’s look at the powers as they apply to IG.

1) Foreboding is useful for a blob or plasma vets, but the psyker needs to be in the squad and most IG players don’t want to be charged. Overall it’s not that great of a power for most IG players.
2) Forewarning is what IG players are fishing for with a 4+ invo on any unit. Top tier
3) Misfortune is also a good power, but the psyker has to start his turn 24” from the target and outside a vehicle. Top tier
4) Perfect timing causes the psyker and his unit to ignore cover. It can’ only effect the psyker’s unit and thus can not effect vehicles. It’s super awesome in other armies but in AM it does the exact same thing as orders from a senior officer who doesn’t have to fish for it making it redundant and possibly not needed. If you have 2 senior officers this is a scrub power.
5) Precognition is uber on a Tzeenth deamon prince, pretty good on Coteaz, but totally craptastic on a psyker with the stat profile of a primaris .
6) Scriers’s gaze is the least popular psychic power, but It’s very important to AM who are likely to have MSU camping an objective. With 2/3 of the rolls on a mysterious objective being good rolling 3 times gives good certainty that they will benefit your backfield objective holders. Also in a non forge world meta prescience and bring it down will cause regular platoon infantry squads will murder flyers if they get a skyfire nexus That’s needed because AM now has weak anti air in a non forge world meta.

Exalted for username.

 Sir Arun wrote:

You are purposefully making a poor comparison on the psyker side to underline your point. Let's take a normal non-HQ LR Punisher instead, to do the number crunching.

So you are looking at a 75 point investment to make your big gun and all your HBs to re-roll failed shots, compared to paying twice as much to get two of everything and another tank on the battlefield. In lists where you dont have a spare 75 points left, this is a nice way of improving your LR firepower from 1 to 1.5 by only paying 50% of what would be required to increase your LR firepower from 1 to 2. Except for one small caveat there. Twin-linking BS3 doesnt raise firepower from 1 to 1.5, but to 1.66. And in reality, if just 1 tank needs a buff, then it will usually be a level 1 psyker, which is 25 points cheaper. So you're only paying 33% and boosting your tank's output from 1 to 1.66. I call that a deal.

But if you insist on level 2 psykers, remember that they have a 1 in 6 chance to roll Forewarning as secondary power, and giving your russ a 4+ invulnerable save definitely adds to its survivability (just think what it does to a squadron of 3 russes). So its not just an increase in firepower here. Or how about that 1 in 6 chance of rolling Misfortune as secondary power? Yeah, now you get to make your Punisher TL, and enemies passing armor saves have to re-roll succesful ones. I dont even want to do the math on how devastating that volley will be. If your primaris is attached to a MOO and 4 Lascannon toting CCS instead, then Perfect Timing is what you're hoping to get and it'll be a field day hunting enemy tanks that arent completely out of LoS. Only Foreboding and Precognition suck, and even scrier's gaze is useful in allowing you to keep your valkyries from entering the board while the enemy still has a lot of skyfire/interceptor weapons active.

I ran the Punisher number crunch for you already, in terms of points spent per shot of main cannon. The psyker is a value is 5pts/shot, the tank is 7pts/shot. Barely worth it, if you don't consider the Russ chassis itself to be a value. I agree that lasguns are a poor point of comparison, but you have to work to find a value for guardsmen that isn't better to just double it than TLing it.

HWS w/ 3 Lascannons, 105pts. Three shots, land 1.5. 70pts/shot
Primaris ML1 TLs, adding .75 shots to the squad. 50/.75 = 66.667pts/shot.

On paper, seems good. Bump him ML 2, though, and you're no longer points efficient to TL the firepower. Consider as well that the maximum number of shots a psyker + unit can land is 3, versus two units which is 6. Again, Prescience is good, and Primaris Psykers are good. Not OP though, and not to be spammed because you may well just get more value by adding more units. For example, in the above, another HWS adds more wounds, another scoring group, and increases the total number of potential shots hit, as well as letting you fire from two different angles. The Psyker, meanwhile, is a secure TL (as long as he hides in a blob) and at ML2 may give them a 4++ (or Perfect Timing if he is, in fact, in the HWS). Perks to both, but the safest bet for Guard imo is to just buy more guns rather than have better guns.

And with level 2, you do get a second power, but you have to roll for it, which makes it super unreliable. Who knows if what you're going to get is particularly useful this game?

The only way to fix this is if you want to get two primaris powers, prescience to make his points back and then... smite? A 25 point soulblaze heavy flamer?

Is there a divination power that isn't "particularly useful"?

1. Allows full BS overwatch and gives counter-attack. Brutal for guard blobs with lascannons and plasma guns out the ass.

2. 4+ invuln. Speaks for itself.

3. Enemies re-roll saving throws. Suddenly, lasguns are terrifying.

4. Ignores cover. Frees up an order for something else. That platoon with the lascannons and plasma guns out the butt? It's ignoring cover and also has precision shots.

5. Only targets the psyker. Dud.

6. Manipulates reserves. Dud.

So, with divination alone you're looking at a 4/6 chance for getting something incredibly useful in almost any situation.

I agree that primaris psykers are hardly "broken", and frankly, taking three all at mastery level 2 is probably unnecessary. But I wouldn't use "super unreliable" to describe them either.

 Ailaros wrote:
And with level 2, you do get a second power, but you have to roll for it, which makes it super unreliable. Who knows if what you're going to get is particularly useful this game?

The only way to fix this is if you want to get two primaris powers, prescience to make his points back and then... smite? A 25 point soulblaze heavy flamer?

That and when dealing with a lvl 1 purely for prescience it's worth spending the extra 5 points for an inquisitor gives LD10 and stubborn to a unit. Plus access to servo skulls. Inquisitors are still better, but the lvl 1 primaris still has things going for him.

Many tournaments have a 2 FOC restriction and do now allow inquisitorial detachments + a regular ally. It's one or the other. That means if you want allies other than inquisition then you have to take primaris instead of inquisitors.

You want a 3rd prescience.

The primaris boosts squad LD to 9 for the purpose of orders while squads can't use the inquisitor's ld10 for orders.

7th ed rumors include a 25% allies restriction. If that pans out then the 25% might become very tight.

 Ailaros wrote:

Sir Arun wrote:You are purposefully making a poor comparison on the psyker side to underline your point. Let's take a normal non-HQ LR Punisher instead, to do the number crunching.

Well, make it more abstract, then.

If we use your heavy bolter punisher as an example, the tank costs 160 points to put down 29 S5 shots. That's 160 points for 14.5 hits, under normal circumstances, which means that you pay 11 points per hit.

Now, add in a psyker, who costs 50 points and adds 7.25 hits, which is 7 points per hit.

So yes, the psyker does save you nearly 30 points (unless he's level 2, in which case, you basically break even). But that efficiency is nearly all you get from the psyker here. You don't get the extra durability that investing in 30 points worth of AV14 gets you, for example. Furthermore, the psyker has that magic 1 in 6 chance of failing his psychic test.

If you multiply the chance of failure back into that efficiency equation, it's 50 points for (7.25 x 5/6) which is 8.2 points per hit, but since you have fewer hits, the end result comes in at 50.02. Put another way, it's the exact same to spend points to give the tanks prescience with a primaris as it is to invest those points in more tanks.

tldr: there is no benefit exceeding the points cost of the psyker to taking the psyker. It's virtually perfectly balanced. At least, when talking about something as expensive as a heavy bolter punisher. For anything that costs less, it's just straight worse.


And yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if prescience got removed from primaris and put into the general pool... but it also wouldn't surprise me if it just got left in as-is either...

Ugg, Prescience is better than this because you get to choose where it goes. You add force multiplication where you want it each turn. It is not an upgrade that sticks with one unit each turn. Giving 1 squad 50% more shooting power as an upgrade would be good, but how good is questionable. First turn they might not get to shoot something. Last turn they might be dead. Turns 2-4 they might be shooting something they aren't suited for.

Prescience gets delivered where you want. So if you have some lascannons taking shots at meq in cover, A heavy bolterful tank glancing the side of an empty chimera, and a squad of plasma vets rapid firing some TAC TDA you get 50% more of the plasma vets usually. next turn when your targets change and the plasma vets are shooting at long range against Geq in cover, the lascannons are going after a dreadnaught behind a wall and the heavy bolters are shooting at lootas out of cover you probably go for the lootas. Next turn the vets rapid firing some meq in cover, the heavy bolters are trying to pick off the surivors of a squad and the las cannons are trying to kill a vindicator that otherwise would have a great shot next turn you use it on the lascannons.

It isnt 50% more firepower, it is 50% more firepower where you need it each and every turn.

I dont know if running 3 primus and 2 inquisitors is the best build. You are going to run out of things that really take advantage of the firepower each turn.

That is also what makes orders so powerful. They aren't just 1 unit ignores cover, each and every turn. it's the unit that could most benefit from ignoring cover this turn, ignores cover. Opportunity makes all the difference.

I view the Primaris as something I'll add in after I've built the core of my list. I generally try and fit in the most amount of actual bodies/hulls first, and then spend that leftover ~100pts on support stuff or upgrades.

My current theoretical 1500pts will likely run either 2x ML1 Primaris, or a single ML2 Primaris because I have either 100 or 75pts leftover depending on the russes I take.

But I wouldn't start my list building with psykers.

That, and I actually like the GW model for the Primaris.

Hollismason wrote:
I don't think they're as good as Warlocks. I mean they get a Invulnerable but it's 5+ and their 50 points but they get to roll on 3 really good charts.

Warlocks Ld 8 is a let down, and to be stuck with one special list of powers (with lame primaris), unable to get level 2.
And they are by fluff better than any human psycher.
But hey, jetbikes!

Edit: oh, and no force weapon, just shred for a feller that die if he/she even think about assault.

PLEASE FEEL FREE TO CORRECT ANY MATH , I AM A NUMBERS GUY BUT THIS SPECIFICALLY I DO NOT WORK WITH.

I'm not a numbers guy by any means when it comes to 40k ( in real life I am though) ; but your examples of 1 single Punisher is flawed because of the following reasons. You are inputting the data at a 1:1 ratio when in fact the PPS lowers exponentially based on how many shots is fire in a game. If you average the turns to 3 or even two it increases it vastly. It also makes it exponentially cheaper when in squadrons of three and a pysker.

Looking at your math it is correct, but when you actually add up the PPS of a full squad it lowers the PPS when you have a psyker.

So let's look at the numbers again and go over a actual I think better comparison. Again, I am not super familiar with these formulae. So please feel free to correct me.

Let's look at the Punisher PPS

Punisher 140 Points Base / 20 Shots , pretty easy to figure that out. Divide the number of points by the amount of shots.

So 7 PPS

Now it recieves at minimum 0 turns meaning at your 1:1 ration, but this increases exponentially when you add in game turns. So let's say you average just 3 turns of firing with that 1 Punisher.

Now it's PPS 2.333

Now let's look at a Squadron

Total Base Cost : 420 points / 60 shots

PPS : Same 7.0

Let's say you only get two turns with that Squad.

PPS. 3.5

Still Pretty Good

Now for our purposes let's say we have a Primaris Level 1, who succeeds only 2/3 of the time.

For purposes of Twinlinked it let's say 50 percent as that comes out at litlle bit easier even though the number is not actually exact. As someone stated I think it's 1.66

Single Punisher w/ Primaris : 190 / 30

PPS : 6.333 not that great

Let's Say though it get's 3 turns of shooting with the psyker casting it 2 of those 3.

190 / ( 30 + 30 + 20) = 2.71

That's pretty good. Now let's look at a squadron of 3.

470 / 60 = 7.8333

Not that great.

3 Turns of Shooting though, with it working 2 out of the 3 times.

470 / ( 60 + 90 + 90) = 1.95

Here's where it get's interesting, what if you did make that roll?

470 / ( 90 + 90 + 90 ) = 1.74

What it it went 4 turns and 3/4?

470 / (90 + 90 + 90 + 60) = 1.4 PPS

This is where is starts breaking down at around the 2nd turn to 3rd turn it starts becoming exponentially more efficient.

I was going to do a PPS w/ additional Leman Russes vs PPS w/ Psyker ,but there's no way to effectively do that? Because it's not a really great comparison.

Two additional Leman Russes though will never reach the point efficiency or PPS or whatever you want to call it. I'm sure someone can work that forumlae out for ST5 vs AVG Toughness but I am unsure of that formulae.

I will say since I like math this is pretty funny

5 Squads of 10 Men w/ = 300 Points 50 ST3
PPS = 6

w/ Pskyer
PPS = 4.666

w/ Psyker FRFSRF
PPS = 3.888

within 12 with Psyker
PPS = 1.555555

Just weird.

It's no mystery that a primaris psyker buffing a larger amount of units increases the efficiency of the psyker. Yes, doubling one russ > adding one psyker. Doubling two russes, however, may not be.

50pts for 20 shots vs 280pts for 40 shots. Doesn't take a math wizard to see the psyker's the better route to go.

My point in all of this is that you must create a situation where the primaris psyker is worth more than doubling the number of guns. Punisher squadrons are one of these situations, and if you field one you should look into a 50pt prescience for it. Exceptions being if you field a Kurov's Aquila near the Russes or Pask is one of them. A Primaris is good for buffing blob guard loaded to the teeth with heavy weapons and plasma guns, less so for a HWS or Vet squads. TL is good for a gunline, but more often than not more guns turns out better.

Well I don't know are we now doing math to figure out the most efficient use? Because Punishers, may not be it. My point with that was to show that it was a exponential increase and not a static ratio. I think efficiency wise multiple divinations is basically adding 50 percent efficiency. My thing with the punishers is that their point efficiency increases with actually taking into account the other heavy bolters as well.

It especially becomes more effective in < 1500 points. 2 Punishers in 1000 points may not be "broken" but add in a Psyker and it becomes very efficient.

I'd also wonder if just math wise if ST5 is good enough there are other things to look at just efficiency wise though.

3 vanquishers with lascannon hulls trudging forward with a primaris walking behind will make for a nice Knight killer.

Manticores are pretty decent to destroy Imperial Knights plus they can have Prescience!! Even Centering on the Knight if you miss and roll less than 4 you hit the thing. Plus they're like half the cost.

What I love is that the Primaris Psykers eliminate SO MUCH of the motivation for this codex to reach for allies. Pure codex's are the way I most enjoy playing. Not having to go outside my codex for help is real nice.

Hollismason wrote:
Well I don't know are we now doing math to figure out the most efficient use? Because Punishers, may not be it. My point with that was to show that it was a exponential increase and not a static ratio. I think efficiency wise multiple divinations is basically adding 50 percent efficiency. My thing with the punishers is that their point efficiency increases with actually taking into account the other heavy bolters as well.

It especially becomes more effective in < 1500 points. 2 Punishers in 1000 points may not be "broken" but add in a Psyker and it becomes very efficient.

I'd also wonder if just math wise if ST5 is good enough there are other things to look at just efficiency wise though.

That's the point, you've got it!

Adding 50% efficiency to a unit is an isolated statistic. When compared to the efficiency boost of a second XYZ unit and the points cost of both options, now you've got something. Of course there's a whole slough of other factors to consider variable on unit. For example, 2 Punishers in a squadron in 1k points buffed by a primaris is better than two punishers separate and only one buffed by a primaris. I'll keep repeating this: you have to create a unit worthy of the psyker's point cost. Generally speaking, this is going to mean blobs and squadrons, which means Primaris Psykers are going to be more valuable the higher points you go.

Blob's are a efficient unit for them but point wise it's probably more efficient to take Kurov's Aquila , works on all friendly units within 6 and they gain preferred enemy which I thin probably comes out a little more benefiical in that allows reroll of wounds as well as hits on a 1.

I'd have to do the math but it's more efficient on higher st weapons like Exterminators and ST7 weapons and Heavy Weapons Teams overall.

Not as good as prescience a higher buy in but the ability to affect multiple units as once makes it pretty efficient. It doesn't apply to just models but the individual units as well.

Although I am unsure if that works in a Chimera ; I don't think it does. I will ask.

Basically, with having multiple ways to improve efficiency in shooting and wounding it makes a static gun line force very deadly.

The more I look at it the more it seems the army is specifically designed around buffs, debuffs, and which you assign to what. Very efficient, in fact I think that's why they put divination in there.

Well, exterminators are already twin-linked, but let's ignore that for a moment, let's just say it's a 4-shot autocannon.

Without the psyker, the tank costs 130 points and gets 2 hits. That's spending 65 points per hit. With the psyker, you spend 180 points for 3 hits. That's 60 points per hit. Not much better.

Then you remember that you only successfully twin-link 5/6ths of the time, and the psyker suddenly becomes 1/6th worse, which means 70 points per hit, effectively.

Psykers aren't better here.

Blacksails wrote:I view the Primaris as something I'll add in after I've built the core of my list. I generally try and fit in the most amount of actual bodies/hulls first, and then spend that leftover ~100pts on support stuff or upgrades.

That's kind of what I'm thinking.

If I have 50 points to blow, and for some reason already have all the weapons slots filled in that I can take, then why not? Sort of like adding Marbo to a list.

Not something I'd plan around, though, unless I had something especially tricksy going on.

Blacksails wrote:That, and I actually like the GW model for the Primaris.

Haha, yea really there's only a few tanks that it is efficient to do it on, and with blobs it's better with the Aquila I just previously mentioned.


It's certainly also beneficial on things that are extraordinary expensive Vanquishers, the uh.. Plasma one. Demolishers etc.. some things are pretty pointless on it.

I agree that the primaris psyker is ridiculously good. However, I don't think giving him a second mastery level is a good idea, when prescience is really the main power you need. I would rather have 3 Presciences than 2 Presciences + 2 random powers.

I can guarantee these will be in every competitive guard list.

 herpguy wrote:
I agree that the primaris psyker is ridiculously good. However, I don't think giving him a second mastery level is a good idea, when prescience is really the main power you need. I would rather have 3 Presciences than 2 Presciences + 2 random powers.

I can guarantee these will be in every competitive guard list.

I dont know, the other ones can be pretty good. Imagine having an almost farseer with re rolls to hit and forcing the enemy to re roll or their passed saves. (I dont know many other powers but I rolled that for one of my psykers for a campaign) so I personally think the level 2 is worth it. Especially since there are orders to give out buffs as well.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 herpguy wrote:
I agree that the primaris psyker is ridiculously good. However, I don't think giving him a second mastery level is a good idea, when prescience is really the main power you need. I would rather have 3 Presciences than 2 Presciences + 2 random powers.

I can guarantee these will be in every competitive guard list.

I dont know, the other ones can be pretty good. Imagine having an almost farseer with re rolls to hit and forcing the enemy to re roll or their passed saves. (I dont know many other powers but I rolled that for one of my psykers for a campaign) so I personally think the level 2 is worth it. Especially since there are orders to give out buffs as well.

I have been finding this true with my Rune Priest. Two Powers a turn of the right type can realy make the diferance.

just have to weigh up if the points you pay for a chance of a good combination is worth it. In my opinion it is. When you think about it, with level 2 you get to roll for 2 powers. Simply ditch the worst one for the prescience.

Well that's just it. You're rolling twice for each psyker, so it actually is worth it. If you get a good power the first roll second roll you take prescience. Out of those six times you should get some pretty good abilities. I mean hopefully at least once you get forewarning then boom. 4++ Invulnerable to your tanks. It may not be worth it to you though so I mean if you have the extra points.

So yea, I mean there's 2 powers in Divination that really are not that great but pretty much you want Forewarning or Misfortune both excellent powers. Scriers gaze isn't terrible.

There's only really one power the one that targets the psyker himselfthat kind of sucks.

The quick rule of thumb for calculating the increased dakka from prescience on BS3 units is 83% (the chance of failing prescience on ld9) times 1/2 the cost of the unit.

A single 140 point tank is 70*.83=58.333 points of increased dakka.

A pair would be 116.66 points of increased dakka.

Anything under 125 points is not cost effective to buff.

Meanwhile prescience gives up 50 points of durability for a 2 wound T3 model.

What makes prescience so powerful is being able to decide what unit to buff and where the extra firepower is most needed. That being said not everything needs prescience.

Note however multiple barrage blast weapons gain a lot more from prescience than BS3 shooting, but that's a complicated topic.

The best thing about forewarning is that it is an invuln. save, not a cover save. So Tau markerlights (and the plethora of cover ignoring things in the meta right now) are useless against it and your LRs are suddenly that much more survivable. I'm getting the feeling we'll be seeing a lot more squadrons from this codex on, also because squadrons no longer suck as much as they did in 5th.

 schadenfreude wrote:
The quick rule of thumb for calculating the increased dakka from prescience on BS3 units is 83% (the chance of failing prescience on ld9) times 1/2 the cost of the unit.

A single 140 point tank is 70*.83=58.333 points of increased dakka.

A pair would be 116.66 points of increased dakka.

Anything under 125 points is not cost effective to buff.

Meanwhile prescience gives up 50 points of durability for a 2 wound T3 model.

What makes prescience so powerful is being able to decide what unit to buff and where the extra firepower is most needed. That being said not everything needs prescience. Where are you getting 83%?

Also assuming your formulae is X x 1/2 Cost ; where X is the cost of the unit.

I'm sorry I'm just a little confused by your formulae.

Note however multiple barrage blast weapons gain a lot more from prescience than BS3 shooting, but that's a complicated topic.

Can I have your math because I've been calculating it at a 50% increase in basically out put. In terms of shots fire, the equivalent number of shots fire for 50% increase in ability.

Do you have a formulae. Sorry for asking, I'm not familiar with this , my job is to deal with mathematical formulae for real estate.

Another complicating factor is that the other divination powers aren't always good.

Misfortune on a model with a Sv6+ is nearly pointless, and if that same Sv6+ model is a cultist, then all that forewarning does is change a Sv5+ to a 4++, which isn't all that great either, while perfect timing isn't going to do much to a deathwing player with some storm shields mixed in.

Someone mentioned that precog and scrying are always "duds" for the primaris, but there are some times where the other ones can be as well.

I feel honestly out of the whole chart, you want Forewarning. It's to powerful on a Leman Russ Squadron.

Everything else honestly I feel is a dud on that chart as they are very very situation specific. Honestly I'd take the odds of spending 225 points to get a 4+ on a 3 Leman Russ Squadron. I feel it's worth it. Also, get's a little crazy in large blobs with priests.

But a trio of russes can hide behind an aegis for cheaper. There isn't much I can think of that's both strong enough to hurt AV14 and also ignores cover.

Except for another divination psyker, but he has to roll perfect timing, and have something worth buffing, and get his power off successfully.

Plus, for those points you can almost just buy two more russes, which accomplishes much of what a 4++ does, but with more firepower, and doesn't require a passed psychic test.

 Ailaros wrote:
Another complicating factor is that the other divination powers aren't always good.

Misfortune on a model with a Sv6+ is nearly pointless, and if that same Sv6+ model is a cultist, then all that forewarning does is change a Sv5+ to a 4++, which isn't all that great either, while perfect timing isn't going to do much to a deathwing player with some storm shields mixed in.

Someone mentioned that precog and scrying are always "duds" for the primaris, but there are some times where the other ones can be as well.

I dont think people are gonna cast re roll failed saves on a unit like that unless that unit IS THE ONLY ONE there.

I usually like what you have to say, but that one is kinda odd

I mean, unless people are putting their primaris psykers in really odd units sent against odd targets, I dont think its a big deal that the power may not be good on a few units.

At the end of the day, you put the psyker in a unit and place where he and his unit will do best to avoid odd situations like this. Just like you would any other unit. So unless you are known for sending bolt gunners against land raiders, then its not often you will have good powers wasted unless they were bad power to begin with.

I think I get the point you are making though, they arent something to 100% rely on.

 Ailaros wrote:
But a trio of russes can hide behind an aegis for cheaper. There isn't much I can think of that's both strong enough to hurt AV14 and also ignores cover.

Except for another divination psyker, but he has to roll perfect timing, and have something worth buffing, and get his power off successfully.

Plus, for those points you can almost just buy two more russes, which accomplishes much of what a 4++ does, but with more firepower, and doesn't require a passed psychic test.

Absolutely true. Although have a 4++ squad of 40 or so Conscripts is pretty keen, even if it costs a good amount.

Hollismason wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
The quick rule of thumb for calculating the increased dakka from prescience on BS3 units is 83% (the chance of failing prescience on ld9) times 1/2 the cost of the unit.

A single 140 point tank is 70*.83=58.333 points of increased dakka.

A pair would be 116.66 points of increased dakka.

Anything under 125 points is not cost effective to buff.

Meanwhile prescience gives up 50 points of durability for a 2 wound T3 model.

What makes prescience so powerful is being able to decide what unit to buff and where the extra firepower is most needed. That being said not everything needs prescience. Where are you getting 83%?

Also assuming your formulae is X x 1/2 Cost ; where X is the cost of the unit.

I'm sorry I'm just a little confused by your formulae.

Note however multiple barrage blast weapons gain a lot more from prescience than BS3 shooting, but that's a complicated topic.

Can I have your math because I've been calculating it at a 50% increase in basically out put. In terms of shots fire, the equivalent number of shots fire for 50% increase in ability.

Do you have a formulae. Sorry for asking, I'm not familiar with this , my job is to deal with mathematical formulae for real estate.

A straight 50% output increase would be incorrect because it assumes that the primaris passes the psychic test 100% of the time instead of failing 1 out of 6 times.

1/2 of the shots hit without prescience. The other 1/2 gains a chance to hit again. So you gain 1/2 of the cost of the unit's worth of shooting IF the psychic test is passed.

LD psychers pass their test 5/6 times or 83%

It's nothing more than the average value of the rerolls * the chance of successfully passing the psychic test

Swastakowey wrote:I dont think people are gonna cast re roll failed saves on a unit like that unless that unit IS THE ONLY ONE there.

Well, I only said the situations existed, not that they'd be swarming like termites out of the woodwork.

I guess to bouy this up, I'd add the nuance of time. Misfortune, for example, only has a 24" range. That means that there are some times where even if your opponent has a more tempting target on the board, they are unable to use that power, and so must settle with a less worthwhile target to use the ability on.

For example, last time I played chaos, there was a blob of MoK CSM with Huron and another big blob with a sorcerer. My terminators were off the table. Terminators would be a great target, but instead you'd be looking at casting misfortune on a worse target (Sv 3+) and those targets have a 4+ and a 5+ deny the witch, respectively.

Would you take a psyker if those were the only times you'd ever get to use malediction? Probably not. Now, that specific situation isn't always going to happen in every game, and it's not even going to be true for every turn of that game, but it is true, to more or less of an extent most places most times.

It's a small loss, but that's the problem with psykers, they invariably accumulate small losses like barnacles. It's easy to see psykers as good, but then when you remember that they usually pass, but sometimes fail their psychic tests, and opponents usually fail, but sometimes passes their deny the witch, and you usually, but not always, get the powers you want, and, and, and...

... and pretty soon all of those little disadvantages add up, and if you're ignoring them you're going to have an overinflated view of what psykers are capable of.

I get what you are saying, at the end of my post I put that they arent exactly 100% to be relied upon. But I face eldar whos guardians frequently get to re roll their hits and my successful saves. It doesnt matter what unit they shoot, it still hurts.

Now I can do that fairly easily (or at least half of that) kinda makes me feel a bit better, let alone I now have a better chance of denying it by taking a psyker.

Also at the end of the day, 1 psyker means 9 less models to place, and sometimes, just some times, thats a good thing.

Well, you could always add in draigo and 10 of his buddies if you wanted. They're all psykers, right?

I dont know much about grey knights... but I know they are ugly. And probably expensive.

Here is one way to thing about it.

You take 3 Level-2 Psykers.
#1 Rolls a 1 Getting: Foreboding. Happy with that you move on trying to get Precognition, but rolls a 6 giving you Scryer’s Gaze so you take Presence.
#2 Rolls a 2 Giving you Forewarning. Then you make your second roll and gets 5 giving you Precognition.
#3 Roll a 4 giving you Perfect Timing and then rolls a 6 giving you Scryer’s Gaze so you take Presence.

You now have the following
#1: Full Ballistic Skill on Overwatch and Re-Rolls to hit, so you attach him to one of your Veteran Squads.
#2: 4++ Save and Re-Rolls on To Hit and Damage along with saves, so you attack him to your Punisher Russ Squadron.
#3: Ignore Cover and To-Hit Rolls, so you attack him to your Vanquisher/Exterminator Squadron or your Heavy Weapons Teams.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I dont know much about grey knights... but I know they are ugly. And probably expensive.

"Know"

Them is fightin' words.

I don't think getting ML2 is very worth it because even though Divination is the best lore Forewarning is really the only other very useful power in this case besides prescience. Maledictions aren't so good on a Primaris because you probably don't want to be within the range to cast it and efficiency of Maledictions goes drastically down when you factor in Deny the Witch (it seems my opponents deny 1/3 of the time).
When you only have a 1/6 chance og getting forewarning you are dumping a lot of points into the POSSIBILITY to get it. Prescience is guaranteed and is the best overall power anyway.

I don't feel 25 points is really that much of a point sink, especially since odds are you'll get Prescience and something useful.

Also, Malediction is a 24 inch range power, while not great is decent.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I dont know much about grey knights... but I know they are ugly. And probably expensive.

Grey knight terminators are some of the most beautiful, grimdark, gothic models GW has ever made for 40K.

 greyknight12 wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
I dont know much about grey knights... but I know they are ugly. And probably expensive.

Grey knight terminators are some of the most beautiful, grimdark, gothic models GW has ever made for 40K.

No not really, just squatty chunky marines (they are the halberd ones right?)

I like the Scibor ones a lot though. They seem more fitting. I plan on using them for grey knights one day, have 5 so far.

Don't forget; Priest abilities don't work in 1st round of combat.

Also, people seem to forget that they are pretty much only available in combat... they give fearless the other is kind of meh.