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It's no mystery that a primaris psyker buffing a larger amount of units increases the efficiency of the psyker. Yes, doubling one russ > adding one psyker. Doubling two russes, however, may not be.

50pts for 20 shots vs 280pts for 40 shots. Doesn't take a math wizard to see the psyker's the better route to go.

My point in all of this is that you must create a situation where the primaris psyker is worth more than doubling the number of guns. Punisher squadrons are one of these situations, and if you field one you should look into a 50pt prescience for it. Exceptions being if you field a Kurov's Aquila near the Russes or Pask is one of them. A Primaris is good for buffing blob guard loaded to the teeth with heavy weapons and plasma guns, less so for a HWS or Vet squads. TL is good for a gunline, but more often than not more guns turns out better.

Well I don't know are we now doing math to figure out the most efficient use? Because Punishers, may not be it. My point with that was to show that it was a exponential increase and not a static ratio. I think efficiency wise multiple divinations is basically adding 50 percent efficiency. My thing with the punishers is that their point efficiency increases with actually taking into account the other heavy bolters as well.

It especially becomes more effective in < 1500 points. 2 Punishers in 1000 points may not be "broken" but add in a Psyker and it becomes very efficient.

I'd also wonder if just math wise if ST5 is good enough there are other things to look at just efficiency wise though.

3 vanquishers with lascannon hulls trudging forward with a primaris walking behind will make for a nice Knight killer.

Manticores are pretty decent to destroy Imperial Knights plus they can have Prescience!! Even Centering on the Knight if you miss and roll less than 4 you hit the thing. Plus they're like half the cost.

What I love is that the Primaris Psykers eliminate SO MUCH of the motivation for this codex to reach for allies. Pure codex's are the way I most enjoy playing. Not having to go outside my codex for help is real nice.

Hollismason wrote:
Well I don't know are we now doing math to figure out the most efficient use? Because Punishers, may not be it. My point with that was to show that it was a exponential increase and not a static ratio. I think efficiency wise multiple divinations is basically adding 50 percent efficiency. My thing with the punishers is that their point efficiency increases with actually taking into account the other heavy bolters as well.

It especially becomes more effective in < 1500 points. 2 Punishers in 1000 points may not be "broken" but add in a Psyker and it becomes very efficient.

I'd also wonder if just math wise if ST5 is good enough there are other things to look at just efficiency wise though.

That's the point, you've got it!

Adding 50% efficiency to a unit is an isolated statistic. When compared to the efficiency boost of a second XYZ unit and the points cost of both options, now you've got something. Of course there's a whole slough of other factors to consider variable on unit. For example, 2 Punishers in a squadron in 1k points buffed by a primaris is better than two punishers separate and only one buffed by a primaris. I'll keep repeating this: you have to create a unit worthy of the psyker's point cost. Generally speaking, this is going to mean blobs and squadrons, which means Primaris Psykers are going to be more valuable the higher points you go.

Blob's are a efficient unit for them but point wise it's probably more efficient to take Kurov's Aquila , works on all friendly units within 6 and they gain preferred enemy which I thin probably comes out a little more benefiical in that allows reroll of wounds as well as hits on a 1.

I'd have to do the math but it's more efficient on higher st weapons like Exterminators and ST7 weapons and Heavy Weapons Teams overall.

Not as good as prescience a higher buy in but the ability to affect multiple units as once makes it pretty efficient. It doesn't apply to just models but the individual units as well.

Although I am unsure if that works in a Chimera ; I don't think it does. I will ask.

Basically, with having multiple ways to improve efficiency in shooting and wounding it makes a static gun line force very deadly.

The more I look at it the more it seems the army is specifically designed around buffs, debuffs, and which you assign to what. Very efficient, in fact I think that's why they put divination in there.

Well, exterminators are already twin-linked, but let's ignore that for a moment, let's just say it's a 4-shot autocannon.

Without the psyker, the tank costs 130 points and gets 2 hits. That's spending 65 points per hit. With the psyker, you spend 180 points for 3 hits. That's 60 points per hit. Not much better.

Then you remember that you only successfully twin-link 5/6ths of the time, and the psyker suddenly becomes 1/6th worse, which means 70 points per hit, effectively.

Psykers aren't better here.

Blacksails wrote:I view the Primaris as something I'll add in after I've built the core of my list. I generally try and fit in the most amount of actual bodies/hulls first, and then spend that leftover ~100pts on support stuff or upgrades.

That's kind of what I'm thinking.

If I have 50 points to blow, and for some reason already have all the weapons slots filled in that I can take, then why not? Sort of like adding Marbo to a list.

Not something I'd plan around, though, unless I had something especially tricksy going on.

Blacksails wrote:That, and I actually like the GW model for the Primaris.

Haha, yea really there's only a few tanks that it is efficient to do it on, and with blobs it's better with the Aquila I just previously mentioned.


It's certainly also beneficial on things that are extraordinary expensive Vanquishers, the uh.. Plasma one. Demolishers etc.. some things are pretty pointless on it.

I agree that the primaris psyker is ridiculously good. However, I don't think giving him a second mastery level is a good idea, when prescience is really the main power you need. I would rather have 3 Presciences than 2 Presciences + 2 random powers.

I can guarantee these will be in every competitive guard list.

 herpguy wrote:
I agree that the primaris psyker is ridiculously good. However, I don't think giving him a second mastery level is a good idea, when prescience is really the main power you need. I would rather have 3 Presciences than 2 Presciences + 2 random powers.

I can guarantee these will be in every competitive guard list.

I dont know, the other ones can be pretty good. Imagine having an almost farseer with re rolls to hit and forcing the enemy to re roll or their passed saves. (I dont know many other powers but I rolled that for one of my psykers for a campaign) so I personally think the level 2 is worth it. Especially since there are orders to give out buffs as well.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 herpguy wrote:
I agree that the primaris psyker is ridiculously good. However, I don't think giving him a second mastery level is a good idea, when prescience is really the main power you need. I would rather have 3 Presciences than 2 Presciences + 2 random powers.

I can guarantee these will be in every competitive guard list.

I dont know, the other ones can be pretty good. Imagine having an almost farseer with re rolls to hit and forcing the enemy to re roll or their passed saves. (I dont know many other powers but I rolled that for one of my psykers for a campaign) so I personally think the level 2 is worth it. Especially since there are orders to give out buffs as well.

I have been finding this true with my Rune Priest. Two Powers a turn of the right type can realy make the diferance.

just have to weigh up if the points you pay for a chance of a good combination is worth it. In my opinion it is. When you think about it, with level 2 you get to roll for 2 powers. Simply ditch the worst one for the prescience.

Well that's just it. You're rolling twice for each psyker, so it actually is worth it. If you get a good power the first roll second roll you take prescience. Out of those six times you should get some pretty good abilities. I mean hopefully at least once you get forewarning then boom. 4++ Invulnerable to your tanks. It may not be worth it to you though so I mean if you have the extra points.

So yea, I mean there's 2 powers in Divination that really are not that great but pretty much you want Forewarning or Misfortune both excellent powers. Scriers gaze isn't terrible.

There's only really one power the one that targets the psyker himselfthat kind of sucks.

The quick rule of thumb for calculating the increased dakka from prescience on BS3 units is 83% (the chance of failing prescience on ld9) times 1/2 the cost of the unit.

A single 140 point tank is 70*.83=58.333 points of increased dakka.

A pair would be 116.66 points of increased dakka.

Anything under 125 points is not cost effective to buff.

Meanwhile prescience gives up 50 points of durability for a 2 wound T3 model.

What makes prescience so powerful is being able to decide what unit to buff and where the extra firepower is most needed. That being said not everything needs prescience.

Note however multiple barrage blast weapons gain a lot more from prescience than BS3 shooting, but that's a complicated topic.

The best thing about forewarning is that it is an invuln. save, not a cover save. So Tau markerlights (and the plethora of cover ignoring things in the meta right now) are useless against it and your LRs are suddenly that much more survivable. I'm getting the feeling we'll be seeing a lot more squadrons from this codex on, also because squadrons no longer suck as much as they did in 5th.

 schadenfreude wrote:
The quick rule of thumb for calculating the increased dakka from prescience on BS3 units is 83% (the chance of failing prescience on ld9) times 1/2 the cost of the unit.

A single 140 point tank is 70*.83=58.333 points of increased dakka.

A pair would be 116.66 points of increased dakka.

Anything under 125 points is not cost effective to buff.

Meanwhile prescience gives up 50 points of durability for a 2 wound T3 model.

What makes prescience so powerful is being able to decide what unit to buff and where the extra firepower is most needed. That being said not everything needs prescience. Where are you getting 83%?

Also assuming your formulae is X x 1/2 Cost ; where X is the cost of the unit.

I'm sorry I'm just a little confused by your formulae.

Note however multiple barrage blast weapons gain a lot more from prescience than BS3 shooting, but that's a complicated topic.

Can I have your math because I've been calculating it at a 50% increase in basically out put. In terms of shots fire, the equivalent number of shots fire for 50% increase in ability.

Do you have a formulae. Sorry for asking, I'm not familiar with this , my job is to deal with mathematical formulae for real estate.

Another complicating factor is that the other divination powers aren't always good.

Misfortune on a model with a Sv6+ is nearly pointless, and if that same Sv6+ model is a cultist, then all that forewarning does is change a Sv5+ to a 4++, which isn't all that great either, while perfect timing isn't going to do much to a deathwing player with some storm shields mixed in.

Someone mentioned that precog and scrying are always "duds" for the primaris, but there are some times where the other ones can be as well.

I feel honestly out of the whole chart, you want Forewarning. It's to powerful on a Leman Russ Squadron.

Everything else honestly I feel is a dud on that chart as they are very very situation specific. Honestly I'd take the odds of spending 225 points to get a 4+ on a 3 Leman Russ Squadron. I feel it's worth it. Also, get's a little crazy in large blobs with priests.

But a trio of russes can hide behind an aegis for cheaper. There isn't much I can think of that's both strong enough to hurt AV14 and also ignores cover.

Except for another divination psyker, but he has to roll perfect timing, and have something worth buffing, and get his power off successfully.

Plus, for those points you can almost just buy two more russes, which accomplishes much of what a 4++ does, but with more firepower, and doesn't require a passed psychic test.

 Ailaros wrote:
Another complicating factor is that the other divination powers aren't always good.

Misfortune on a model with a Sv6+ is nearly pointless, and if that same Sv6+ model is a cultist, then all that forewarning does is change a Sv5+ to a 4++, which isn't all that great either, while perfect timing isn't going to do much to a deathwing player with some storm shields mixed in.

Someone mentioned that precog and scrying are always "duds" for the primaris, but there are some times where the other ones can be as well.

I dont think people are gonna cast re roll failed saves on a unit like that unless that unit IS THE ONLY ONE there.

I usually like what you have to say, but that one is kinda odd

I mean, unless people are putting their primaris psykers in really odd units sent against odd targets, I dont think its a big deal that the power may not be good on a few units.

At the end of the day, you put the psyker in a unit and place where he and his unit will do best to avoid odd situations like this. Just like you would any other unit. So unless you are known for sending bolt gunners against land raiders, then its not often you will have good powers wasted unless they were bad power to begin with.

I think I get the point you are making though, they arent something to 100% rely on.

 Ailaros wrote:
But a trio of russes can hide behind an aegis for cheaper. There isn't much I can think of that's both strong enough to hurt AV14 and also ignores cover.

Except for another divination psyker, but he has to roll perfect timing, and have something worth buffing, and get his power off successfully.

Plus, for those points you can almost just buy two more russes, which accomplishes much of what a 4++ does, but with more firepower, and doesn't require a passed psychic test.

Absolutely true. Although have a 4++ squad of 40 or so Conscripts is pretty keen, even if it costs a good amount.

Hollismason wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
The quick rule of thumb for calculating the increased dakka from prescience on BS3 units is 83% (the chance of failing prescience on ld9) times 1/2 the cost of the unit.

A single 140 point tank is 70*.83=58.333 points of increased dakka.

A pair would be 116.66 points of increased dakka.

Anything under 125 points is not cost effective to buff.

Meanwhile prescience gives up 50 points of durability for a 2 wound T3 model.

What makes prescience so powerful is being able to decide what unit to buff and where the extra firepower is most needed. That being said not everything needs prescience. Where are you getting 83%?

Also assuming your formulae is X x 1/2 Cost ; where X is the cost of the unit.

I'm sorry I'm just a little confused by your formulae.

Note however multiple barrage blast weapons gain a lot more from prescience than BS3 shooting, but that's a complicated topic.

Can I have your math because I've been calculating it at a 50% increase in basically out put. In terms of shots fire, the equivalent number of shots fire for 50% increase in ability.

Do you have a formulae. Sorry for asking, I'm not familiar with this , my job is to deal with mathematical formulae for real estate.

A straight 50% output increase would be incorrect because it assumes that the primaris passes the psychic test 100% of the time instead of failing 1 out of 6 times.

1/2 of the shots hit without prescience. The other 1/2 gains a chance to hit again. So you gain 1/2 of the cost of the unit's worth of shooting IF the psychic test is passed.

LD psychers pass their test 5/6 times or 83%

It's nothing more than the average value of the rerolls * the chance of successfully passing the psychic test

Swastakowey wrote:I dont think people are gonna cast re roll failed saves on a unit like that unless that unit IS THE ONLY ONE there.

Well, I only said the situations existed, not that they'd be swarming like termites out of the woodwork.

I guess to bouy this up, I'd add the nuance of time. Misfortune, for example, only has a 24" range. That means that there are some times where even if your opponent has a more tempting target on the board, they are unable to use that power, and so must settle with a less worthwhile target to use the ability on.

For example, last time I played chaos, there was a blob of MoK CSM with Huron and another big blob with a sorcerer. My terminators were off the table. Terminators would be a great target, but instead you'd be looking at casting misfortune on a worse target (Sv 3+) and those targets have a 4+ and a 5+ deny the witch, respectively.

Would you take a psyker if those were the only times you'd ever get to use malediction? Probably not. Now, that specific situation isn't always going to happen in every game, and it's not even going to be true for every turn of that game, but it is true, to more or less of an extent most places most times.

It's a small loss, but that's the problem with psykers, they invariably accumulate small losses like barnacles. It's easy to see psykers as good, but then when you remember that they usually pass, but sometimes fail their psychic tests, and opponents usually fail, but sometimes passes their deny the witch, and you usually, but not always, get the powers you want, and, and, and...

... and pretty soon all of those little disadvantages add up, and if you're ignoring them you're going to have an overinflated view of what psykers are capable of.

I get what you are saying, at the end of my post I put that they arent exactly 100% to be relied upon. But I face eldar whos guardians frequently get to re roll their hits and my successful saves. It doesnt matter what unit they shoot, it still hurts.

Now I can do that fairly easily (or at least half of that) kinda makes me feel a bit better, let alone I now have a better chance of denying it by taking a psyker.

Also at the end of the day, 1 psyker means 9 less models to place, and sometimes, just some times, thats a good thing.

Well, you could always add in draigo and 10 of his buddies if you wanted. They're all psykers, right?

I dont know much about grey knights... but I know they are ugly. And probably expensive.

Here is one way to thing about it.

You take 3 Level-2 Psykers.
#1 Rolls a 1 Getting: Foreboding. Happy with that you move on trying to get Precognition, but rolls a 6 giving you Scryer’s Gaze so you take Presence.
#2 Rolls a 2 Giving you Forewarning. Then you make your second roll and gets 5 giving you Precognition.
#3 Roll a 4 giving you Perfect Timing and then rolls a 6 giving you Scryer’s Gaze so you take Presence.

You now have the following
#1: Full Ballistic Skill on Overwatch and Re-Rolls to hit, so you attach him to one of your Veteran Squads.
#2: 4++ Save and Re-Rolls on To Hit and Damage along with saves, so you attack him to your Punisher Russ Squadron.
#3: Ignore Cover and To-Hit Rolls, so you attack him to your Vanquisher/Exterminator Squadron or your Heavy Weapons Teams.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I dont know much about grey knights... but I know they are ugly. And probably expensive.

"Know"

Them is fightin' words.

I don't think getting ML2 is very worth it because even though Divination is the best lore Forewarning is really the only other very useful power in this case besides prescience. Maledictions aren't so good on a Primaris because you probably don't want to be within the range to cast it and efficiency of Maledictions goes drastically down when you factor in Deny the Witch (it seems my opponents deny 1/3 of the time).
When you only have a 1/6 chance og getting forewarning you are dumping a lot of points into the POSSIBILITY to get it. Prescience is guaranteed and is the best overall power anyway.