Now I know it seems a bit early but i think from what we know it's safe to say that Wood Elves have a lot of new options to discuss and I personally want to hear first impressions of these new units as and when we hear about them first ourselves. For example I will post a few of the rules we know: Wood Elves have access to both High and Dark Magic AS WELL as all 8 Rule Book lores. WOW. We just went from the book with access to 3 lores to the book with access to the most! How the signatures will work is up for debate as it's unlikely we will get 4 signature spells, but still from what we know we have access to 2 great lores!

Other Rules include Elf-Wide Always strike first, i for one have been using ETC rulings for quite a while and i can say this makes Wild Riders and War Dancers viable and quite deadly. Tree Spirit Ward Save is becoming a true one, but is now only a 6+. This is quite a big nerf as i have gotten quite accustomed to making last second 5+ saves on my treeman to save him from Cannon Balls, Treekin might also take a hit as they are our best anvils. Hawkeye grant's re-rolls of 1's in shooting and we are rumoured for ALL of our shooting to be strength 4 at short range, this makes fast cav brutally effective now, 18 inch march with no penalty followed by strength 4 shot's that hit on 3's re-rolling 1's sounds great. High Magic seems very helpful. as does Shadow. Apothesis will help keep the Treemen up and running, Walk Between Worlds seems built for a 6 strong unit of Treekin and no one can dispute how good withering is for a shooting heavy army.

So, what are our first impressions?

Didn't the "leaked" pages in the News thread turn out to be an elaborate fake?

They where, my facts come from the white dwarf pages. They advertise the Wood Elf Magic Cards, as well as they include an Elf Character with Always Strike First, so i was assuming that was an army wide thing due to how they are giving it to all Elves.

Judging from the character, are all wood elves gonna have stubborn, or is the new guy just another version of korhil rulewise, and only he has stubborn? Cos they don't seem to have a personal elven prowess rule.

I don't think all of them would have Stubborn, that'd be mighty powerful and would just make everyone field big blocks that cannot be met in close combat. It might just be a character that has a special ability similar to the Crown of Command.

I really, really hope that GW does not break with the Wood Elf concept of being a skirmish-heavy, movement-relying army. I do hope for them to get lots of special abilites that let them, for example, move faster through terrain, allow them to shoot better even when having moved etc. Give them the ability to be a super-annoying hit-and-run army and this might just be the first GW thing I'd buy for almost a year. Second-hand, of course. But I'll get the army book! From an online retailer.

Having access to more lores is a good thing, I really want to experiment with a heavens and high magic council that would play to WE strengths in the movement phase by restricting enemy movement and increasing our own, things like walk between worlds, fiery convocation, chain lightning and comet will really help us in that regard.

I don't think dark magic ill do a lot for us, but if the feel of our current rules carries over to the new ones, we will weirdly enough get better synergy out of it then DE do.

High Magic will do lovely things for us, we've always had trouble dealing with enemy super buffed units, now we can, thanks to drain magic.

I can't wait for the new book though, i'll probably spend the first few days doing a tactical breakdown of the book, maybe tmarichards will come out of hiding again? Now, I have to learn how to use the Battlescribe catalogue editor.

From the pictures I've seen it looks like the treeman front is the wide edge of a monster base. If so, that'll put the treeman at a disadvantage when attacking great weapon hordes, for instance.

I wouldn't attack those up-front anyway though, but if he hits a flank, he can lay down some serious hurt. War machines though.

Were the old bases square?

IF the width of the base is doubled, but the length of the base remains the same, it is neutral vs cannons in your front arc, worse vs cannons in your flank, worse vs anything that shoots like a stone thrower.

You take the same amount of attacks if something flanks you, you take more attacks if something is in your front or rear.

Any advantage to a wider than previous front arc?

Yes, the old bases are square, that being said, it looks like a chariot base turned side on in the picture, which would make it 100x50 rather than 50x100.

 Son of Landuin wrote:
Judging from the character, are all wood elves gonna have stubborn, or is the new guy just another version of korhil rulewise, and only he has stubborn? Cos they don't seem to have a personal elven prowess rule.

I think since the special character doesn't have a bow, he might not have the archery type prowess that the Wood Elves are rumored to have.

Having an expensive Flammable monster with only a 6+ ward seems like a really bad idea.
ASF makes wild riders and blade dancers significantly better, thanks to the re-rolls to hit.
Access to all lores of magic doesn't open up a lot of option.

If all wood elf bows are S4 at short range, I'd actually consider lore of fire on a few wizards, and mount the whole army for massed shooting/evasion. You could march 18" and shoot at 15" for S4 shots, and toss out multiple fireballs (kindle fire attribute helping) to clear off enemy chaff/soft targets; and then use your speed to avoid combat. It is a lot less damage output, but a greater ability to choose what is getting hit, and the army is a lot harder to catch.

Good post. Being flammable still is a big problem in 8th given that flaming attacks / spells / etc. are quite easy and cheap to get; being a giant target doesn't help much either.

I do hope their archers have a longer range than just generic short range as that would greatly help them avoiding enemies and preserving their unique 7th-play style of "Fly like a butterfly, sting like a bee". Or something.

I'd say the new lores give us a lot of options. Metal in particular gives us an answer to 1+ saves we simply don't have, and Arabian Blades is very nice for any unit. Just imagine it at short range? A unit of 15 Glade Guard hitting on 2's re-rolling 1's at strength 4 armour piercing, even Chaos Warriors would be scared of that.

Shadow will always be helpful for Elves but I am giddy about access to High Magic, Hand of Glory pushes our BS in ridiculous levels while Apotheosis will work wonders for keeping our Treemen up and running. Dark Magic synargises quite well with us, Shroud of Darkness being the big one as our Fast Cav can get really close to use it and it can really, really screw up armies such as Empire or Orks. Doombolt will always be a great chaff cleaner and word of pain will swing combats in our favour OR work with Chillwind to reduce enemy shooting.

It seems the new woodies will be very reliant on their new magical mastery.

Treekin have seen a massive point drop of 20pts! While they did lose a pip of strength and a ward save downgrade, at least it can be taken vs magical attacks. I don't believe they are the hammers they used to be, but they will make darn good anvils. 45pts for 3 T5 4+/6++ is pretty darn good, taking a unit of 9 is now the same cost as a unit of 6 used to be meaning you can effectively run a Treehorde for cheap. With the new lores they could synargise well with these guys, but i stick by beasts being the best for Wissan's Wildform.

So, is this a nerf to you, or just a move in the diagonal direction?

At S4 they really don't bring anything worth writing home about, they'll probably just sit on the shelf now.

Are they still Skirmishers? If yes, the shelf it is until 9th.

Still? They aren't skirmishers at present.

I'm still hoping for some more new units. There are stag-riding elves in the new art, and that had been rumoured. So, hopefully that will come to pass, and give us some monstrous infantry?

It's hard not knowing the actual army-wide rules yet, but I am just as excited as anyone about this. I do think that this will be a "rain of ruin from afar" type army still, with lots of shooting and an increased use of magic (as pointed out), but having some durable 3-wound treekin for less appeals to me.

I just wonder at the apparent loss of the "tree-surfing" ability that made the army so interesting and different before. As the only army that could manipulate the battlefield (along with the ability to place that extra small woods piece), that was always a significant factor in a game. So, a more level playing field, but I hope that at least WE units can walk through woods with no negative effects or something.

Yeah, the fact that Dryads and such might occasionally take wounds from angry trees was stupid.
...but so was the ability to put down a little forest. I mean, if the table is a desert or a dwarfen mine or whatever...it makes no sense.

But a spell to move and/or create forests? Yes please. And that's coming from someone who hates playing against the Wood Elf style.

Interesting change on the Lores. I'm not sure how having both High and Dark Magic works fluff-wise, but hey. I don't think those lores are the best news so far. At the moment, a Lvl4 Shadow Mage supporting a shooting list looks to be nasty with those shooting bonuses, with a Lvl1 on Metal to deal with those pesky 1+ saves.

It'll be interesting to see what they do with the magic items/sprites. Wood Elves had some great upgrades in their old book.

Well, fluffwise the Lore of Athel Loren was basically High Magic in another name, but I'm curious as to how Dark Magic will fit, maybe its to represent the capriciousness and duality of their nature?

Wood elves embrace all of their nature, both the good and the bad, so having both was natural, as all elves have the capacity to be heartlessly cruel and selflessly sacrificial.

I think the Treekin do bring something different to Wood Elves, the big one being durability. Toughness 5 is big, sure any unit with Great Weapons will cleave through them, but against the majority of hordes they will be wounded on 5's or 6's, then get a 4+ or 5+ save then a 6+ ward. I think these will make a great anvil and a great home for a Stag Rider Noble! I believe Treekin are the only unit that grant him a LOS! And if you give him the Dawn Spear (if we still have it...) then he could be a massive help at reducing wounds.

I just have a massive urge to have a Treehorde of 18 Treekin, 3 ranks of 6. They attack in two ranks because monstrous infantry and the third due to horde, that's a lot of very buffable, very durable attacks there!

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I think the Treekin do bring something different to Wood Elves, the big one being durability. Toughness 5 is big, sure any unit with Great Weapons will cleave through them, but against the majority of hordes they will be wounded on 5's or 6's, then get a 4+ or 5+ save then a 6+ ward. I think these will make a great anvil and a great home for a Stag Rider Noble! I believe Treekin are the only unit that grant him a LOS! And if you give him the Dawn Spear (if we still have it...) then he could be a massive help at reducing wounds.

I just have a massive urge to have a Treehorde of 18 Treekin, 3 ranks of 6. They attack in two ranks because monstrous infantry and the third due to horde, that's a lot of very buffable, very durable attacks there!

Aren't Treekin MI, and the stag rider MC, thus no LOS?

 Krellnus wrote:
Well, fluffwise the Lore of Athel Loren was basically High Magic in another name, but I'm curious as to how Dark Magic will fit, maybe its to represent the capriciousness and duality of their nature?

Hello all. I'm just looking at the new White Dwarf, where it says in regards to the new magic cards for the army:

"Though they appear wild and uncivilised alongside the Elves of Ulthuan or even Naggaroth, the Wood Elves of Athel Loren are no less the masters of magic. The most powerful Wood Elf mages are the Spellweavers, who have access to the Lores of High and Dark Magic, in addition to the eight Lores found in the Warhammer rulebook."

It also makes clear that the WE have "unique Lore Attributes for each" (I assume only of the High and Dark varieties), which is interesting.

So, the fluff seems solid enough--they're just the same race who have chosen to live in Athel Loren, and have aspects of both other varieties of elves.

Anyway, I have another question regarding the "Forest Strider" rule that I can now see IS part of Durthu's new rules. It confers "Forest Strider" which means that cavalry models moving through that type of terrain do not suffer dangerous terrain tests, correct? But what else? Is it conceivable that, as @Warpsolution said, "Dryads and such might occasionally take wounds from angry trees"? If so, that is dumb. Maybe a clarification will be made in the new book? Any clarification from you guys would be very welcome.


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Warpsolution wrote:
Yeah, the fact that Dryads and such might occasionally take wounds from angry trees was stupid.
...but so was the ability to put down a little forest. I mean, if the table is a desert or a dwarfen mine or whatever...it makes no sense.

But a spell to move and/or create forests? Yes please. And that's coming from someone who hates playing against the Wood Elf style.

In response to this, I again quote from the current White Dwarf when discussing how to shield Durthu from enemy cannons and such:

"...try and interpose terrain, (such as the free wood all Wood Elf Armies get)..."

So, looks like we still get to "create woods in the desert and Dwarf mines! (Which I grant you is pretty weird).

All WE units have forest strider atm. They never take dangerous terrain tests in forests but at present are affected by blood forests and wildwoods.

Thanks @Krellnus, for the clarification. I do understand the rule better now, but in terms of fluff, it doesn't make sense to me that this would occur to a "Forest Strider." But then the "forest appears in the middle of Dwarfen hold" doesn't either I guess....gotta suspend our disbelief and lose ourselves in the universe.

Anyway, here is a bit more from the current White Dwarf about the Light & Dark Magic fluff, in case any of you don't have the issue.

“THE CONTRAST OF DARK AND LIGHT

One of the most fascinating aspects of the new Wood Elf rules is the fact that their Spellweavers have access to the Lores of High and Dark Magic. Mat Ward has the following to say about it. “Dark Magic comes into the courts of Athel Loren towards the end of the Season of Vengeance,” Mat explains. “Initially it leads to some profound problems, especially for Ariel, but in time it becomes a real boon to the Wood Elves.

“Whereas the High Elves fear the consequences of dabbling with the forces that exist within Dark Magic, and the Dark Elves are too arrogant to believe any consequences could ever effect them, the Wood Elves have a slightly more pragmatic view,” Mat says. “The Wood Elves act expecting consequences, and so all aspects of magic are taught in their courts, and often under the tutelage of Ariel herself. This prevents the overweening arrogance of their cousins, and frees them to understand both dark and light.

“What this means for Wood Elf players is that Spellweavers can reflect both sides of the Wood Elf pysche, dark and light,” Mat says. “The power to heal, and to[…]”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop. “White Dwarf Issue 13: 26 April 2014.” iBooks. https://itun.es/us/wxc0Z.l


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Also, there is a photo in the new White Dwarf of some WE army, and you can see a blurry image of new Stag riders and a clear look (though partial) of some new Eternal Guard (maybe?---They have interesting weapons, kind of glaive-like axes). So, I guess I can confirm that those exist.

Anybody have any idea of how to attach a screenshot to one of these threads?

The pics are already in the news and rumour thread.

Codex:Tree has been nerfed

Stop whining crybaby !
And yes I can be "offensive" to him, I know the guy

I'll see when it lands but ranked baby trees seems acceptable at severely reduced pay of course.....oh and my your cheese grow ever mouldier tankol

Poison arrows are best arrows.

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
....gotta suspend our disbelief and lose ourselves in the universe.

I will suspend my disbelief so that there is magic and dragons. But the Warhammer world still obeys the laws of physics as I know them, and has similar patterns and themes as this world. So, I'll suspend my disbelief in terms of there being fey-like beings called elves that live in the woods, and that they have strange and terrible allies such as dryads.
...but I will not accept that dryads--tree-ladies that're pissed-off at tresspassers-- occasionally get beat up by pissed-off trees because they're tresspassing. Nor will I accept that pine and oak trees grow in the desert.

Warpsolution wrote:

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
....gotta suspend our disbelief and lose ourselves in the universe.

I will suspend my disbelief so that there is magic and dragons. But the Warhammer world still obeys the laws of physics as I know them, and has similar patterns and themes as this world. So, I'll suspend my disbelief in terms of there being fey-like beings called elves that live in the woods, and that they have strange and terrible allies such as dryads.
...but I will not accept that dryads--tree-ladies that're pissed-off at tresspassers-- occasionally get beat up by pissed-off trees because they're tresspassing. Nor will I accept that pine and oak trees grow in the desert.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torrey_pine

Precipitation
The last 20 years has seen San Diego average less than 10" of rain per year, making San Diego a desert... With Pine Trees. Accept it.

 Daba wrote:
Poison arrows are best arrows.

Units of 50+ shortbow-armed Goblins agree.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Daba wrote:
Poison arrows are best arrows.

Units of 50+ shortbow-armed Goblins agree.

Ha, units of 60 skeleton archers and khalida agree wholeheartedly!

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
The last 20 years has seen San Diego average less than 10" of rain per year, making San Diego a desert... With Pine Trees. Accept it.

Fine. I will. Just keep your pyramids out of it.

Warpsolution wrote:

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
....gotta suspend our disbelief and lose ourselves in the universe.

I will suspend my disbelief so that there is magic and dragons. But the Warhammer world still obeys the laws of physics as I know them, and has similar patterns and themes as this world. So, I'll suspend my disbelief in terms of there being fey-like beings called elves that live in the woods, and that they have strange and terrible allies such as dryads.
...but I will not accept that dryads--tree-ladies that're pissed-off at tresspassers-- occasionally get beat up by pissed-off trees because they're tresspassing. Nor will I accept that pine and oak trees grow in the desert.

Ha! Hilarious. Yeah, lame rule. But what are you gonna do?

Actually what ARE you going to do? Stay out of the woods? That doesn't make sense for Dryads, as you say. But I guess that Forest Strider doesn't really help foot sloggers anyway, yes? I guess you get some cover vs. shooting, but what other benefits would we get? We already cause Fear (presumably that will be the same) and we do run the risk of getting beat up. Poisoned attacks would be good. I have generally stayed away from Woods if I could help it in other games with other armies, but I would want to be in there with WE.

Oh well.

Ceann Fine wrote:
I'll see when it lands but ranked baby trees seems acceptable at severely reduced pay of course.....oh and my your cheese grow ever mouldier tankol

I'm actually quite intrigued by ranked Dryads... here's hoping they're priced appropriately (points-wise).

This whole hubbub about dryads and treekin taking wounds from forests seems fooey considering if you take the acorn, you get D3+1 free forests that YOU GET TO CHOOSE THE TYPE OF! And place them anywhere in your deployment.

I wonder how popular life is general, awakening the woods could end up recking woodies.

Well most of the time when you take life you are almost always trying to get flesh to stone, throne, dwellers and regrowth, so the only time that will happen is if your opponent takes multiple life wizards or does not roll at least one double.

Or if they intentionally take the awakening the woods spell knowing the wood elf player will be putting down more forests.

I don't see that as a problem, though, it seems like a legitimate tactic to curse the woods.

 RiTides wrote:
Or if they intentionally take the awakening the woods spell knowing the wood elf player will be putting down more forests.

I don't see that as a problem, though, it seems like a legitimate tactic to curse the woods.

Yes, I agree. If you can choose what type they are, then that allows you to use them as part of your strategy. Which is, I guess, what GW intended in this edition of the rules, making the terrain in general more magical and interactive. So that's cool; just something to be factored in.

So unit placement and set-up look to continue being integral in playing with the Wood Elves. (I have even drawn maps of deployment before big battles, creating overlapping fields of fire, movement avenues, etc.) Which is, in my opinion, part of why you would want to play WE, tactically speaking.

 RiTides wrote:
Or if they intentionally take the awakening the woods spell knowing the wood elf player will be putting down more forests.

I don't see that as a problem, though, it seems like a legitimate tactic to curse the woods.

Except they won't because the other spells are just flat out better atm.

With new models come new rules and new things to talk about!

The Sisters of the Thorn look like almost auto include. If you don't know, they are Wood Elf Warlocks, they count as a level 2 mage and always know Shield of Thorns and Curse of something or other as well as being BS 5 with Poisoned Javelins. and having a 4+ Ward.

That, plus the fact they are fast Cav so can march and shoot they seem like they will never be charged and with a 4++ they are quite survivable to shooting.

To me they seem like the perfect place to put a level 2 Dark Magic user, as that lore has a low range that complements the Javelins as well as Power from Darkness helping the Javelins (Str User). They further complement each other as Shield of Thorns can be used to regain any wounds lost from PoD.

While not good in combat and it should be avoided, a unit of 5 will be delivering 10 ASF Poison attacks plus 5 Str 4 attacks from the deer, they could help with small Archer units.

On the spells, Shield of Thorns at first seems like a bad spell when you look at it damage wise, but what you should look at it as is a nice heal with the Thorns as extra. All the while Curse of Something or Other is a massively underrated spell, as if it is cast then the unit has a -1 to hit (always nice) but more importantly if it moves AT ALL (Open terrain counts as terrain) then they must take dangerous terrain tests and fail on a 1 or 2. 1/3 of any unit lost if they move at all, letting us dictate the movement phase.

What do you think? I know i will be picking 5 up!

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
With new models come new rules and new things to talk about!

The Sisters of the Thorn look like almost auto include. If you don't know, they are Wood Elf Warlocks, they count as a level 2 mage and always know Shield of Thorns and Curse of something or other as well as being BS 5 with Poisoned Javelins. and having a 4+ Ward.

That, plus the fact they are fast Cav so can march and shoot they seem like they will never be charged and with a 4++ they are quite survivable to shooting.

To me they seem like the perfect place to put a level 2 Dark Magic user, as that lore has a low range that complements the Javelins as well as Power from Darkness helping the Javelins (Str User). They further complement each other as Shield of Thorns can be used to regain any wounds lost from PoD.

While not good in combat and it should be avoided, a unit of 5 will be delivering 10 ASF Poison attacks plus 5 Str 4 attacks from the deer, they could help with small Archer units.

On the spells, Shield of Thorns at first seems like a bad spell when you look at it damage wise, but what you should look at it as is a nice heal with the Thorns as extra. All the while Curse of Something or Other is a massively underrated spell, as if it is cast then the unit has a -1 to hit (always nice) but more importantly if it moves AT ALL (Open terrain counts as terrain) then they must take dangerous terrain tests and fail on a 1 or 2. 1/3 of any unit lost if they move at all, letting us dictate the movement phase.

What do you think? I know i will be picking 5 up!

I think it makes high elves cry. But to be fair, dark/wood elves got the super wizard fast cav. High elves got the banner to ignore them.

What I'm curious about is if a highly mobile army is viable, or if you will not have enough punch. If the fast cav core is still 24 point each, 25 of them would make my core requirement.
Do you think new wood elves will be able to do the cowbows and indians thing?

-Matt

Disclaimer: I have never played WHFB and am only now getting in to the game to pickup a WE army.

So far what I see is that Wood Elves are a highly mobile, fragile army, with a few magical tricks.

I think the key to running them well will be taking advantage of the terrain and using the Acorn to get as many extra forests as possible. Then we are looking at positioning our ranged units with durability in that terrain to continue firing armor piercing shots while our faster, or hard hitting units move around to a flank. The drycha's ability to allow a unit to "deep strike" in to a forest seems powerful and a good way to get attention off of the units camping in the forests, (the tree huggers? since they are clinging on to the cover?)

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I think it makes high elves cry. But to be fair, dark/wood elves got the super wizard fast cav. High elves got the banner to ignore them.

What I'm curious about is if a highly mobile army is viable, or if you will not have enough punch. If the fast cav core is still 24 point each, 25 of them would make my core requirement.
Do you think new wood elves will be able to do the cowbows and indians thing?

-Matt

I'm very interested in the answer to that as well, as it's the reason I want the army. I want to be fragile but hypermobile, but still be able to actually kill things if I'm smart with my movement rather than just dink off armor all game. Some of the new rules such as the armor piercing and magical arrows look like they're going to let me accomplish that.

I would very much say so, indeed i would say there is little to no point in taking any big foot units at all. For only a small amount of points more Glade Guard can become Glade Guard Scouts, gaining Scout and Skirmisher making them much more effective at dodging charges, or you could take Glade Riders who are ridiculously fast (9'' Vanguard plus 18'' march first turn!) and work very well with magic arrows, especially Arcane Bodkins (-3 to armour save) and Accurate Arrows (No modifiers...ever). Similarly Waywatchers have became simply amazing now, while they have lost KB at range they gained the amazing ability to IGNORE ARMOUR SAVES *ahem* or have Multiple Shots 2. Take in units of 5, proceed to troll.

Warhawk Riders are now the best flying units in the game, with each Hawk having almost the exact same stats as an Eagle plus Killing Blow on the charge AND an Elf Rider for less then the price of a single Great Eagle. We already know how good Sisters of the Thorn are, Wild Riders still pack a punch as do War Dancers while Dryads, Treekin and Treemen are all less fearsome.

It seems to me that a MSU Points denial SHOOT YOU IN THE FACE (well, in the side) list supported by powerful magic and Warhawks/Wild Rider chaff hunters is the list to beat for Woodies.

In case you don't know...i am very happy with this release

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I would very much say so, indeed i would say there is little to no point in taking any big foot units at all. For only a small amount of points more Glade Guard can become Glade Guard Scouts, gaining Scout and Skirmisher making them much more effective at dodging charges, or you could take Glade Riders who are ridiculously fast (9'' Vanguard plus 18'' march first turn!) and work very well with magic arrows, especially Arcane Bodkins (-3 to armour save) and Accurate Arrows (No modifiers...ever). Similarly Waywatchers have became simply amazing now, while they have lost KB at range they gained the amazing ability to IGNORE ARMOUR SAVES *ahem* or have Multiple Shots 2. Take in units of 5, proceed to troll.

Warhawk Riders are now the best flying units in the game, with each Hawk having almost the exact same stats as an Eagle plus Killing Blow on the charge AND an Elf Rider for less then the price of a single Great Eagle. We already know how good Sisters of the Thorn are, Wild Riders still pack a punch as do War Dancers while Dryads, Treekin and Treemen are all less fearsome.

It seems to me that a MSU Points denial SHOOT YOU IN THE FACE (well, in the side) list supported by powerful magic and Warhawks/Wild Rider chaff hunters is the list to beat for Woodies.

In case you don't know...i am very happy with this release

Brb, going to fling money at GW. Again.

Seriously that's what I want from WE. This is beautiful.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I would very much say so, indeed i would say there is little to no point in taking any big foot units at all. For only a small amount of points more Glade Guard can become Glade Guard Scouts, gaining Scout and Skirmisher making them much more effective at dodging charges, or you could take Glade Riders who are ridiculously fast (9'' Vanguard plus 18'' march first turn!) and work very well with magic arrows, especially Arcane Bodkins (-3 to armour save) and Accurate Arrows (No modifiers...ever). Similarly Waywatchers have became simply amazing now, while they have lost KB at range they gained the amazing ability to IGNORE ARMOUR SAVES *ahem* or have Multiple Shots 2. Take in units of 5, proceed to troll.

Warhawk Riders are now the best flying units in the game, with each Hawk having almost the exact same stats as an Eagle plus Killing Blow on the charge AND an Elf Rider for less then the price of a single Great Eagle. We already know how good Sisters of the Thorn are, Wild Riders still pack a punch as do War Dancers while Dryads, Treekin and Treemen are all less fearsome.

It seems to me that a MSU Points denial SHOOT YOU IN THE FACE (well, in the side) list supported by powerful magic and Warhawks/Wild Rider chaff hunters is the list to beat for Woodies.

In case you don't know...i am very happy with this release

Scouts, better at dodging charges? You do realise skirmishers have a larger footprint than ranked units right?

 Krellnus wrote:

Scouts, better at dodging charges? You do realise skirmishers have a larger footprint than ranked units right?

March and Shoot with free reforms. The foot print is a bit bigger, but it's a lot easier to get out of arc.
Of course, with no real hammers in the army, it's tough to keep the enemy focused in any given direction.

-Matt


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Anyone hear rumors on Dryads? I heard Instability, which could actually make them very useful (taking a few wounds instead of running).

Nope, they are now S3 I5 but have hatred and rank up. In short they are pretty bad now.

 Krellnus wrote:
Nope, they are now S3 I5 but have hatred and rank up. In short they are pretty bad now.

I wonder if they can work with the high magic attribute. Hold back a unit of ~35 (5 wide 7 deep) and try and beef them up with tokens. Then on the first combat if your ignoring enough wounds, you have a decent shot at winning combat and breaking steadfast.

-Matt

MSU Wood Elves do sound very nice, but I think large units still have a place in an army, especially with all the bonuses they get in forests. I think a large unit of Archers in the forest you bring would work very nicely indeed, and should take you up to minimum Core pretty easily, with a few extra units of fast cav or something added in.

What do people think about the Acorns of Ages item? An extra few forests is no doubt a huge benefit, but it's a random amount and you pay 100pts for the privilege. Will this item be an auto-include, a never-include? Or somewhere in between?

 The Shadow wrote:
MSU Wood Elves do sound very nice, but I think large units still have a place in an army, especially with all the bonuses they get in forests. I think a large unit of Archers in the forest you bring would work very nicely indeed, and should take you up to minimum Core pretty easily, with a few extra units of fast cav or something added in.

What do people think about the Acorns of Ages item? An extra few forests is no doubt a huge benefit, but it's a random amount and you pay 100pts for the privilege. Will this item be an auto-include, a never-include? Or somewhere in between?

I dunno about the acorn. It does say that they have to be GW woods.

Tree nerf gives them a more defensive role. Notably it makes Wood Elves the only Elves without an offensive monster unless you're using forest dragons.

Standard archery has more options, but requires much more thought than before. Scouts are interesting.

Wild/Warhawk Riders became much more glass cannon-y.

Oddly, the great weapon troops, while capable of providing some anti-armour muscle, still aren't too good compared with their analogues from other Elf books.

Wood Elf Doomfire Warlocks O_______O oh and Waywatchers are crazy now

Tyranno wrote:
Tree nerf gives them a more defensive role. Notably it makes Wood Elves the only Elves without an offensive monster unless you're using forest dragons.

Standard archery has more options, but requires much more thought than before. Scouts are interesting.

Wild/Warhawk Riders became much more glass cannon-y.

Oddly, the great weapon troops, while capable of providing some anti-armour muscle, still aren't too good compared with their analogues from other Elf books.

Wood Elf Doomfire Warlocks O_______O oh and Waywatchers are crazy now

The Treekin actually got a major boost, albeit indirectly. Now that the army has access to lore of life, you can make Treekin WS10 with ASF. Which is always what they needed. A bonus to hit, or rerolls. I still think there are better options in the book though.

The Rangers are a hybrid of black guard and executioners. They are really glass cannon-y though. They're going to be brutal in the hands of a skilled player, notsomuch in the hands of a less-than-skilled player. Like the Sisters of the Thorn.

Onto them, that miscast. It actually has an effect! The spell selection is meh though. Curse is a good spell, but it's not a super good spell. Whereas brolocks have two spells that synergise with each other and the rest of the army, they have curse and awakening. Two spells that need support from the rest of their respective lores. The whole point of Curse is to draw dice out so you can throw out spears and buffs. As for Awakening, don't even get me started on Life magic.

Waywatchers are looking to be a 1+ again though. Which I like, as they are awesome models.


On an unrelated note, WHY DO THE SHADOWDANCER AND WAYSTALKER EXIST!

Heroes with a 25 point magic item allowance AND one of them has a 60 point upgrade to become a level 1. Utterly pointless. Wardancers however, have become useful, in that they have ASF so can focus on that sweet, sweet 3+ ward.

Shadowdancer and Waystalker are just the old Wardancer and Waywatcher Kindred nobles from the previous book. >>

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Shadowdancer and Waystalker are just the old Wardancer and Waywatcher Kindred nobles from the previous book. >>

Yes. But, why give them both 25 points of magical gear.

And why make the Shadowdancer pay 60 points to become a level 1? On top of his 100 point price tag.

Waystalkers can put out two sniper shots at 30", the psychological impact of that is enough to mess with your opponents plans.

In the games I played yesterday, the combination of Skayrn, The Arrow of Kurnous and a waystalker meant I did not have to deal with my opponents cauldron unit or executioners head on.

 Krellnus wrote:
Waystalkers can put out two sniper shots at 30", the psychological impact of that is enough to mess with your opponents plans.

In the games I played yesterday, the combination of Skayrn, The Arrow of Kurnous and a waystalker meant I did not have to deal with my opponents cauldron unit or executioners head on.

You have more reliable tools in your arsenal to avoid dealing with combat blocks. Especially frenzied elven combat blocks. Glade Guard deal with those really well.

And those two sniper shots are still only S3. And he's 90 points. For 80 you can get a level 1 death. And the level 1 death is more reliable at sniping characters and models.

No it isn't, a level 1 death has to cast the spell and will probably only be Ld 8. That is also assuming that you have enough dice (which you won't often, because generating tokens will likely be a higher priority).

Additionally, the Death wizard has a much shorter range than the longbow and is less capable of supporting your army in other ways (such as Araloth being a Ld 10 general and lending much needed killing power to Eternal Guard or wildwood rangers).

That's not to say that death wizards are bad, its just I would much rather take 2 level twos and try for soulblight and p.sun.

I was thinking of running a Spellweaver, level 4 with the acorn. The taking a lord mounted on a stag and giving him the Moonstone. He would be attached to a 9-large wild rider squad. This would be supplemented by two large squads of glade guard and a warhawk rider squad.Not sure where the rest of the points will go.

But the idea is to get a forest near the enemy flank. Run the warhawk's up to be more of a distraction, at their point cost, who really cares if they get wiped out. Then use the moonstone item on the lord to pop up in the enemy zone on the flank. Do you think this is a viable starting point for an army? How would a Treeman fit in with this tactic?

 Krellnus wrote:
No it isn't, a level 1 death has to cast the spell and will probably only be Ld 8. That is also assuming that you have enough dice (which you won't often, because generating tokens will likely be a higher priority).

Additionally, the Death wizard has a much shorter range than the longbow and is less capable of supporting your army in other ways (such as Araloth being a Ld 10 general and lending much needed killing power to Eternal Guard or wildwood rangers).

That's not to say that death wizards are bad, its just I would much rather take 2 level twos and try for soulblight and p.sun.

Aaaactually. The level 1 death has access to two possible spells. And will probably be LD 10. That means that you have a much larger chance of outright killing your opponent's general. As for the tokens, I can see the doublebolt list running them, but that's about it.

The Shadowdancer I see being useful as a unit leader in a block of non Wardancers (ha!) to add some combat resolution.

I could possibly see her using Glistening Scales (if only she had WS9 so WS4 enemies would then hit on a 6+ as the magic item, then using the 3++ normally then switch to remove ranks for the kill, or Killingblow for assassination where needed.

If your level 1 wizard is in the same unit as your general that is one of two things for your opponent, free points, or a lot of free points, neither of which is advisable.

As for the tokens, I predict that almost every army will run high magic, the ability to negate incoming damage like that allows us to build pure glass cannon combat lords, something only our Asur cousins can do at the moment.

 Krellnus wrote:
If your level 1 wizard is in the same unit as your general that is one of two things for your opponent, free points, or a lot of free points, neither of which is advisable.

As for the tokens, I predict that almost every army will run high magic, the ability to negate incoming damage like that allows us to build pure glass cannon combat lords, something only our Asur cousins can do at the moment.

I never said the same unit. The general does actually have IP.

I actually see high magic falling at the wayside. It's a mediocre-bad lore with an okay attribute. Whereas with dark, 2 hexes and a boosted doombolt does 42 hits to a unit. And neither of those are as good for the army as shadow or death. Or light, to a certain extent.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:
If your level 1 wizard is in the same unit as your general that is one of two things for your opponent, free points, or a lot of free points, neither of which is advisable.

As for the tokens, I predict that almost every army will run high magic, the ability to negate incoming damage like that allows us to build pure glass cannon combat lords, something only our Asur cousins can do at the moment.

I never said the same unit. The general does actually have IP.

Oh right, I forgot they put that FAQ in that completely negates their previous ruling which uses IP as an example.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
I actually see high magic falling at the wayside. It's a mediocre-bad lore with an okay attribute. Whereas with dark, 2 hexes and a boosted doombolt does 42 hits to a unit. And neither of those are as good for the army as shadow or death. Or light, to a certain extent.

I'm not so sure, it like heavens, helps WE do what they do best and that is manipulate the movment phase (Walk between worlds and Fiery convocation immeadiatley come to mind) our biggest strength I think, will be that we can council any lore better than other races, especially if we sit in a forest.

What do you think about channel spamming?
Branchwraiths are only 75 points and are level 1 with lore of life. In a 2400 point game, you can run 8 as heroes, giving you the full lore of life and 2 signature spells.
Then take 3 units of Sisters of Thorn units and 3 Lord level casts (level 3's) for lords.
That gives you 13 channels.
Take beast magic on one (or both) of the lords, and cram those Dryad heroes into the front rank of 1 or 2 Dryad Blocks.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
What do you think about channel spamming?
Branchwraiths are only 75 points and are level 1 with lore of life. In a 2400 point game, you can run 8 as heroes, giving you the full lore of life and 2 signature spells.
Then take 3 units of Sisters of Thorn units and 3 Lord level casts (level 3's) for lords.
That gives you 13 channels.
Take beast magic on one (or both) of the lords, and cram those Dryad heroes into the front rank of 1 or 2 Dryad Blocks.

13 channels gives you just over 2 dice per phase, but it's at the cost of a ton of spells that you can't cast because those 9 dice on average are now being split between 13 casters, and only three of those casters are going to have any bonus to casting worth writing home about. Could be fun for shenanigans for sure, but I'm not convinced it's effective.

Channel spamming wouldn't be efficient, not because Wood Elves can't do it, but because other races can do it so much better due to magic items and such. If you need the extra magic dice to push though important spells, take a level 3 with Lore of Dark Magic. Take PoD and Doombolt and put him in a unit of 5 Sisters of the Thorn. Run into a forest and use PoD, if they dispell, they use up maybe 2 dice for your 1, if they don't you get enough dice to throw at Doombolt which they might also try to dispel. Dark Magic is a great lore at trying to draw out dispel dice.

To me i am seeing the new hottness being the Waywatchers where most lists will pack at least 2x5 of them. Bs 5 armour ignoring shots for cheap in a slot with little competition? Yes please! The new Waystalker looks good to, take 2 of them naked with the Waywatchers and they will be sniping out support characters left and right. How many level 1 scroll caddies do you see? How many BSB's that rely on a 1+ re-rollable save? Let them fear the forest!

I think one of the main auto includes in the new book is one unit with Starfire Shafts. I find the majority of the big scary monsters are Forces of Destruction with regen rolls, I'm looking at Hell Pits and Hydras here, a unit with those arrows is wounding on 5s against that thing, and it's main save of a regen doesn't help it.I will be taking a unit of 15 GG in a forest every game to deal with nasty things like that, it should be actually rather effective, can probably kill a hell pit in 2-3 turns without engaging it, always good.

danny1995 wrote:
I think one of the main auto includes in the new book is one unit with Starfire Shafts. I find the majority of the big scary monsters are Forces of Destruction with regen rolls, I'm looking at Hell Pits and Hydras here, a unit with those arrows is wounding on 5s against that thing, and it's main save of a regen doesn't help it.I will be taking a unit of 15 GG in a forest every game to deal with nasty things like that, it should be actually rather effective, can probably kill a hell pit in 2-3 turns without engaging it, always good.

Starfire and Moonfire arrows are about the same as having poison arrows and a flaming banner. In a tournament, I'd go for the poison instead, as it will also thump the sphinxes, ogre chariots and frost phoenixes.

-Matt

I think that's definitely going to be a play test thing for me, I definitely see no reason for moonfire though.

glade riders have ambush which sadly negates vanguard, it is a weird one but ambush has to start in reserve.

Retracted

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Starfire and Moonfire arrows are about the same as having poison arrows and a flaming banner. In a tournament, I'd go for the poison instead, as it will also thump the sphinxes, ogre chariots and frost phoenixes.

-Matt

Flaming banner doesn't work with magic arrows.

I don't see where you're getting that impression from.

"All shooting attacks made with enchanted arrows count as having been made with magic weapons." WE pg 37

"Unless otherwise stated, a model with this special rule has both Flaming shooting and close combat attacks (though any spells cast by the model are unaffected, as are any attacks made with magic weapons they might be wielding)." BRB pg 69

Thank you for the clarification, makes me want to take the arrows even more. I just hate hell pits. Plus this opens up the use of BoEF on a combat block depending on your meta (I won't be using it, too many Dragon Princes around here). The tactic I'm interested in trying is eternal guard with a shadow dancer to negate rank bonuses. I'll need to double check some rules on that one though, very much not used to dealing with steadfast and the like.

Do Wood Elf Characters have access to a mount with the fast cav rules?

Sure do.

danny1995 wrote:
Thank you for the clarification, makes me want to take the arrows even more. I just hate hell pits. Plus this opens up the use of BoEF on a combat block depending on your meta (I won't be using it, too many Dragon Princes around here). The tactic I'm interested in trying is eternal guard with a shadow dancer to negate rank bonuses. I'll need to double check some rules on that one though, very much not used to dealing with steadfast and the like.

Negating Rank bonus doesn't Negate ranks. You opponent is going to lose the +1 to +3 to combat res, and that's it. I don't see the T3 6++ character lasting that long when he chooses to negate ranks instead of taking the 3++ save. A unit of 5 wardances is actually cheaper than the hero. I think I'd take the little unit and use it in a combo charge.

I knew the arrows where magical, but I thought being an enchanted item meant they weren't "magic weapons". Oh well.

So it looks like there is a lot of discussion of the glade guard, the waywatchers and the wild riders.

But where does the Treeman come in. Should he be run as Durthu, an ancient, or just the Treeman? I'm looking for the best way to field this guy in my new army,.

Personally I think standard tree man is your best bet, ancients are tough but you're basically paying for a well defended level 2 there, and a tree man in my opinion should be your beat stick next to your wild riders. Ancients can't do that. But durthu might be worth trying in that roll.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

danny1995 wrote:
Thank you for the clarification, makes me want to take the arrows even more. I just hate hell pits. Plus this opens up the use of BoEF on a combat block depending on your meta (I won't be using it, too many Dragon Princes around here). The tactic I'm interested in trying is eternal guard with a shadow dancer to negate rank bonuses. I'll need to double check some rules on that one though, very much not used to dealing with steadfast and the like.

Negating Rank bonus doesn't Negate ranks. You opponent is going to lose the +1 to +3 to combat res, and that's it. I don't see the T3 6++ character lasting that long when he chooses to negate ranks instead of taking the 3++ save. A unit of 5 wardances is actually cheaper than the hero. I think I'd take the little unit and use it in a combo charge.

I knew the arrows where magical, but I thought being an enchanted item meant they weren't "magic weapons". Oh well.

Yeah, it was the last sentence of the paragraph describing how they work, I missed it the first go around too.

Just noticed that the Wood Elves finally got that update I have been wanting before I started Fantasy. So, here is my question; Can an all Forest Spirit army still be viable?

Debatable. I don't think so myself, Dryads are just so blah. Not all that great really. Same thing with tree kin. Although you can do something super fluffy with wild wood rangers themed stuff. Worth consideration.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Just noticed that the Wood Elves finally got that update I have been wanting before I started Fantasy. So, here is my question; Can an all Forest Spirit army still be viable?

Yes, but you'll have no fortitude.

If all forrest spirit had been more viable I may have been tempted back into wood elves / fantasy before 9th edition hits next year... close call

The forest spirit army is decent. If you play it right you can with it. one problem is the subtle nerfs to the treeman. The ancient is decent, but I wish you didn't have to take life with it. Beasts would be great. the loss of a strength and wound is a big deal. Making it harder to survive cannons and to kill good armor saves. Another problem is dryads. I don't think they are as bad as the general consensus states, but they really need a musician, which they can't have.

One problem doesn't have to do with wood elves themselves, but there are a lot more armies that have access to cannons, or some other kind of flaming war machine. Which hurts pure forest spirit armies.

Treekin are still pretty mean, and now really cheap and easy to fit in to a list.

If you want to run trees, I would throw in a few units of glade guard with poison arrows and banners. They can fairly easily wipe up cannons. or use war hawks wild riders, or glade riders to get to them.

If you want a close combat army for wood elves, wild riders are the go to unit. 5 attacks per model with armor piercing and rerolls for most of the attacks... Yes please!

I think that ability to mix forest spirits with non-forest spirits shouldn't be over-looked.

A block of Wildwood Rangers, with an attached Branchwraith can give them a much needed 5+ regenerate with the lore of life signature spell.

Except for the difference in bases makes for a problem with ranking up.

danny1995 wrote:
Except for the difference in bases makes for a problem with ranking up.

You want the dryad in the corner anyway, to minimize the attacks she takes.

I thought the Branchwraith had to take Beasts Lore ?
Don't have the book yet, so I might be mistaken

Nope, branch wraiths can only take the lore of life.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I think that ability to mix forest spirits with non-forest spirits shouldn't be over-looked.

A block of Wildwood Rangers, with an attached Branchwraith can give them a much needed 5+ regenerate with the lore of life signature spell.

Hey, now that's a neat idea. I'd been glossing over the rangers since they felt really meh to me, but I'll keep that in the back of my mind.

 Evertras wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I think that ability to mix forest spirits with non-forest spirits shouldn't be over-looked.

A block of Wildwood Rangers, with an attached Branchwraith can give them a much needed 5+ regenerate with the lore of life signature spell.

Hey, now that's a neat idea. I'd been glossing over the rangers since they felt really meh to me, but I'll keep that in the back of my mind.

Yeah, I really like the models and hope they can work somehow. @11 points, you can get a pretty good sized block for not too expensive. I wish they were S4 base though, S5 is just a little shy of awesome. ITP is ok, but not critical on an Ld9 unit. Mostly I like the idea of a ton of dudes with giant axes and a single tree nervously attached in the corner.

-Matt

TanKoL wrote:
I thought the Branchwraith had to take Beasts Lore ?
Don't have the book yet, so I might be mistaken

It's Durthu that takes Beast Lore. But the treeman ancient and the branchwraith only have Lore of Life.

Well, I'm excited to start buying and painting new models and trying this out! I definitely think that a mixture of Forest Spirits and non- makes sense, and the 5+ Regen signature spell buff idea is fantastic, so thanks for sharing that.

I just can't abandon my Glade Guard and shooting to go with an all-Trees army list though--it's too much a part of what the WE are to me.

HawaiiMatt wrote:I think that ability to mix forest spirits with non-forest spirits shouldn't be over-looked.

A block of Wildwood Rangers, with an attached Branchwraith can give them a much needed 5+ regenerate with the lore of life signature spell.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Evertras wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I think that ability to mix forest spirits with non-forest spirits shouldn't be over-looked.

A block of Wildwood Rangers, with an attached Branchwraith can give them a much needed 5+ regenerate with the lore of life signature spell.

Hey, now that's a neat idea. I'd been glossing over the rangers since they felt really meh to me, but I'll keep that in the back of my mind.

Yeah, I really like the models and hope they can work somehow. @11 points, you can get a pretty good sized block for not too expensive. I wish they were S4 base though, S5 is just a little shy of awesome. ITP is ok, but not critical on an Ld9 unit. Mostly I like the idea of a ton of dudes with giant axes and a single tree nervously attached in the corner.

-Matt

I've been keen to run some WWRs - would the branchwraith or a shadowdancer be better for them? I suppose you could run a block of 15 or so as a response unit against any chargers to the main archer bunker? Or would they work in smaller units alone?

What do you do with bases when mixing in models with different base sizes?

 Daba wrote:
What do you do with bases when mixing in models with different base sizes?

They tag along on the side.

Only when they don't fit "correctly"
40x40 fits within 20x20
25x25 doesn't
The "characters joining units" covers this question in the BRB

Just wanted to say i had a great first game with my Wood Elves today vs Warriors of Chaos that really show cased certain units. Waywatchers for example where utterly invaluable, i had 2 units of 10 and my god did they mulch through the usually invulnerable Chaos Knights before plinking a few wounds off of the Juggernaughts. First turn each unit of 10 fired at 2 separate units of 6 knights, knocking 3 and 4 down first turn. The look on the Chaos players face was so sweet as he eyed the Waywatchers with something between fear and loathing.

The second unit which really proved their worth where Wild Riders, i took a unit of 8 and threw them straight forward. Second turn they ploughed into a 14 man level 2 warrior bunker. I reformed to fit everyone in and picked up my dice, the WOC asked what my stats where, he asked me to check again

So, 24 Ws 5 Re-rolling Str 5 Armour Piercing attacks later he only had 5 men left, he killed off 2 WR but then the Deer killed off another 2 guys (we played them as benefiting from Frenzy) and he ran away like a girl to get run down. They then later charge into the rear of the Juggernaught combat with my Dryads where 2 and a half Blood Crushers where wailing on some Dryads. 18 Ws 5 Str 5 Armour Piercing attacks killed off all but 1 (doing 4 wounds) and forcing the check on Ld 4, he ran away like a girl.

I must say that my new found fire power is very much to my liking! Those Wild Riders hit like a ton of bricks!

sounds like you had a hell of a game!! the one thing that i would comment on is that i dont believe the frenzy would confer to the mount. PLEASE take this for what its worth as i dont have my BrB on me right now. but i remember something about Jugs not getting frenzy except for when they have the frenzy banner. but i could be talking out my ass.... in fact most likely talking out my ass.

Well the Jugger's probably should get it, but for them just the riders do. But for the Wild Riders the entire model has Frenzy, not just the Rider, so i assume it would effect both.

Believe me, you do not want to be in the way of a very angry stag!

LMAO, Ya regardless of rules, the Wild Riders are a wicked cool model!!!

So it sounds like they should have brought out a new plastic kit for waywatchers. Because running 2 squads of 10 sounds awesome, but at 3 for $18, that would cost me about $120!!

Or I can just run my glade guard as waywatchers.

I have some real Waywatchers and some Glade Guard (But only the ones with the Hoods!) and mix them all in together. This way i can split of the real Waywatchers to be Waystalkers as they would look different from my normal Waywatchers

Waywatchers are definitely this books must have unit, ignoring Armour saves is crazy!

So i bought the "Hobbit" wood elf models. Box of 10 models with 9 differant posses. all for 40 bucks. Ya they are a TINY bit smaller but because they are scouting it wont be to bad. I also am building up the bases so they sit at the same if not higher level.

 Icculus wrote:
So it sounds like they should have brought out a new plastic kit for waywatchers. Because running 2 squads of 10 sounds awesome, but at 3 for $18, that would cost me about $120!!

Or I can just run my glade guard as waywatchers.

Is there not more kits to be released over the course of this month? Would make sense for GW to put out a new kit for such a good unit. If not, I'm sure a conversion wouldn't be too hard to do.

 The Shadow wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
So it sounds like they should have brought out a new plastic kit for waywatchers. Because running 2 squads of 10 sounds awesome, but at 3 for $18, that would cost me about $120!!

Or I can just run my glade guard as waywatchers.

Is there not more kits to be released over the course of this month? Would make sense for GW to put out a new kit for such a good unit. If not, I'm sure a conversion wouldn't be too hard to do.

Mine are gonna be shadow warrior torsos, Glade Guard longbows, and Dark Rider masked heads.

Hmm, I may have to do some Dark Elf kit-bashing as well. That seems like the smarter way to go.

 Puddle_Pirate wrote:
So i bought the "Hobbit" wood elf models. Box of 10 models with 9 differant posses. all for 40 bucks. Ya they are a TINY bit smaller but because they are scouting it wont be to bad. I also am building up the bases so they sit at the same if not higher level.

Nice idea! They're made by GW/Citadel too, so they would probably be fine to use in a tournament.

I have tooled up some Glad Guard with extra hand weapons to serve the purpose, but it sounds like I too, may need to bulk up on this unit.

Thanks for the battle report, Awesome Alex! I've got 5 old metal Wild Riders; I wonder if I can mix them into a unit of the new ones...probably, but they just won't look as cool.

Nice idea! They're made by GW/Citadel too, so they would probably be fine to use in a tournament.

GW doesn't host tournaments anymore, and I don't see any TO refusing any miniature as long as it's not confusing for your opponent
An elf bowman is an elf bowman

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Waywatchers are definitely this books must have unit, ignoring Armour saves is crazy!

They really, really are! And it really, really is! The big thing is that they are really, really versatile.

Against small elite heavily armored blocks, you just ignore armor saves.
Against big lightly armored blocks, you get Multiple Shots(2) and plink out double the BS5 (or more with Hand of Glory!) shooting. Crazy useful.

--

I'm normally a skaven/beastmen player, and looking over this book is downright terrifying. Couple thoughts:

The Acorn that gives forests is the entire magic allotment for a Lord choice. My thought for best spot, is on a High Magic Spellweaver. The lore attribute starts granting him protection counters to make up for his complete lack of defense or save of any kind, where a lord would be left FAR more vulnerable.

OTOH, Lore of Dark Magic makes skaven players cry. I don't want to think of how many spells I'll have to let through, just to be sure I have dispel dice for Shroud of Dispair; thankfully it has a short range. Bladewind will wipe out an average of 22 slaves (say, 50 slaves. 2/3 will fail the WS2 check, and 2/3 will be wounded by the spell); for a 9+ cast. For actually good units instead of tarpits, Word of Pain drops WS by d3, and Bladewind is naturally Armor Piercing.

Glade Captain w/ Moonstone of the Hidden Ways and Hagbane Tips - 118
14 Glade Guard w/ Hagbane Tips - 210

Small footprint unit that can pop from forest to forest shooting poisoned arrows at Warmchines, Monsters and other small unsupported blocks. By the time most enemies turn around, you can just leave again. You could go with a smaller 10 elf glade guard unit, but I wanted to take full advantage of the extra ranks from being in a wood.

Treemen are a pretty decent monster for their cost. Tough, decent saves, with good LD + stubborn. Ancients lose out a little bit in stats, but make for one tough Level 2 life mage if you want. When Beastmen are redone, I hope our monsters are on this level.

As for magic arrows, Arcane Bodkins are really nice with the -3 to armor saves, but I would probably run Hagbane or Trueflight, myself. Massed poisoned attacks are nasty and make up for S3 shooting. Trueflight lets you hit with your BS4 all the time. Outside half range? Stand and shoot? Target in hard cover? Nope, still hitting on 3s...

Looks like a fun book. If I ever started a Force of Order, Wood Elves would be my go to.

Moonstone doesn't work that way (and it's a good thing !) as you count as having marched after using it
not a problem when used with skirmishers though

TanKoL wrote:
Moonstone doesn't work that way (and it's a good thing !) as you count as having marched after using it
not a problem when used with skirmishers though

Crud, forgot about that whole marching and firing thing. Throw him on a steed and put him with Sisters? Their javelins are thrown and already poisoned...

Guess you could do it with Deepwood Scouts, slightly more expensive per model but lets you have a smaller unit if you want.

The thing with trueflight is that Miasma still works.
-D3 to BS means you're firing at ~BS2 and ignoring modifiers, always hitting on a 5+.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
The thing with trueflight is that Miasma still works.
-D3 to BS means you're firing at ~BS2 and ignoring modifiers, always hitting on a 5+.

-Matt

Very true. But then, Miasma screws over every kind of arrow in the end.

Hagtree or Arcane Bodkins would be hitting on 5's, but pretty much any penalty would negate the entire shooting. Skirmishers, > half range, hard or soft cover, Howling Warpgale, etc. etc. All those things would hurt everything but Trueflight. Miasma hurts them all.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
The thing with trueflight is that Miasma still works.
-D3 to BS means you're firing at ~BS2 and ignoring modifiers, always hitting on a 5+.

-Matt

#tkproblems.

The other thing is the ruling pending on can you duplicate enchanted item arrows across an army. One Midwest tourney(Midwest Rampage) has already ruled and said no. So that is another potential issue. I think Hagbane are sweet, personally.

 Acardia wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
The thing with trueflight is that Miasma still works.
-D3 to BS means you're firing at ~BS2 and ignoring modifiers, always hitting on a 5+.

-Matt

#tkproblems.

The other thing is the ruling pending on can you duplicate enchanted item arrows across an army. One Midwest tourney(Midwest Rampage) has already ruled and said no. So that is another potential issue. I think Hagbane are sweet, personally.

I was under the impression that items in a unit's Army List entry didn't suffer from that limitation?

So was I, however there is nothing explicit that states that. The entry for Warpstone Weapon in the Skaven book seems to set the precedent for duplication of the same magic weapon. And since these lack it, there is an argument.

Personally I'm torn. It clearly applies to characters that if the item is taken, by one then no other character can duplicate it. As an except to take a second enchated item is allowed, however not duplicate it. Skaven book allows duplication explicitly. That is missing on the arrows.

Now for units. it's still treated as an enchanted item. Which really begs 3 points to raise.

1) duplication within a unit, plaguebearers and about half of the DOC book violate this already since they are equipped with magic weapons.

2) Duplication across multiples of same unit carrying multiples
(Feels like the yo dawg meme)

3) And does this only apply to optional upgrades? You can take multiple magic item upgrades to corpse carts correct? IIRC the upgrades are magic items.

Huh, I'm a skaven player normally so that must be where my confusion came from.

I'm sure that will get all cleared up in the FAQ!






some day

Damn, would I like some trueflight arrows on some of peasant bowmen, they never seem to hit, nevermind wound.
Well, tis to expected from the filthy commoners.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Moonstone, acorn and drycha and tree spam sounds like a list for ultimate trolls, dryads/treekin popping up every where and running about should be fun if the board is big enough for the trees to be put down in good places.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Mine are gonna be shadow warrior torsos, Glade Guard longbows, and Dark Rider masked heads.

Pics when done please

So, Swiftshiver Shards vs Trueflight arrows.

I am still building my army and havent played any fantasy yet, but from my experience as a 40k player, and especially an Ork 40k player I have noted that volume of shots always seems to prove useful, even if at a - to hit.

What I want to know is how often and how severe are these negatives to ht. I know that half-range + gives you a negative to hit and that moving gives you a negative. But lets look at this way.

10-man glade guard unit with Trueflight that moved and is firing at 20" will hit on 3s. that's 6.66 hits.
10-man glade guard unit with Trueflight that stayed still and is firing at 10" will hit on 3s. 6.66 hits

10-man glade guard unit with Swiftshiver (2 shots each) that moved and is firing at 20" will hit on 5s. thats 6.66 hits
10-man glade guard unit with Swiftshiver that stayed still and is firing at 10" will hit on 3s. that's 13.33 hits.

So as you can see, if you are taking a -2 to hit, you are the same, but at anything less than a -2, the pure volume of shots statistically is better. My question is this, how often do you anticipate suffering a -3 to hit?

quite, actually. It is very easy to screen units with more durable, less attractive targets which force you at a -1 to shoot the squishy stuff. Or if you want to move. Or if you are shooting into/through a forest (God knows we can put enough of them down). Or as a stand or shoot reaction. Or at Skirmishers. Simply by being a Skirmisher over 15'' away behind any sort of cover is putting you at a 7+ to hit (6's followed by 4's), all the whole the Trueflight arrows will get the same amount of hits as ever.

As a Wood Elf player, we would know more then most about putting enemy shooting at a disadvantage and how easy it is. In all honesty, there are only 2 competitive arrows and a third situational one, those being Hagbane, Trueflight and Moonfire (the anti-destruction one) as they all have niches only they can fill. Poison works wonders vs War Machines, Trueflight murders Skirmishing chaff and Moonfire strips regen easily. Swiftshiver? Meh, I'd rather pay a few more points and get myself a Waywatcher with the same abilities, better BS and the option to ignore armour.

 Icculus wrote:

10-man glade guard unit with Swiftshiver (2 shots each) that moved and is firing at 20" will hit on 5s. thats 6.66 hits
10-man glade guard unit with Swiftshiver that stayed still and is firing at 10" will hit on 3s. that's 13.33 hits.

-1 for multiple shots.
10 man that moved and fired at 20" will hit on 6+. 3.33 hits
10 man that stayed still and firing at 10" will hit on 4+. 10 hits.

So, if you're backing away and firing, Trueflight arrows are better.
If you can park and shoot, that 1 round of shooting will be better.

Gotcha. I must have missed the -1 for multiple shots thing.

So it looks like there are lots of ways those negatives can stack up and the Swiftshiver are only better in one situational instance.

Thanks for breaking that down for me.

 Acardia wrote:
1) duplication within a unit, plaguebearers and about half of the DOC book violate this already since they are equipped with magic weapons.

All magic item restrictions only apply if you have the ability to CHOOSE them. DoC don't choose. Certainly plaguebearers don't. The restrictions are in the BRB p.500

"In addition addition to specific restrictions noted in relevant armies book, there are rules that govern the SELECTION of all magic items..."

 Icculus wrote:
Gotcha. I must have missed the -1 for multiple shots thing.

So it looks like there are lots of ways those negatives can stack up and the Swiftshiver are only better in one situational instance.

Thanks for breaking that down for me.

I think swiftshiver arrows would be best used on Captains and Lords since their BS is extremely high, so they'll be able to lick shots off and still reliably hit things even if they move and are at long range. Honestly, if you're fielding a hero or lord that's not a caster, you're not really going to be staying far away from things anyway, so you'll only have to worry about the long range penalty for a turn or so.

 DukeRustfield wrote:

 Acardia wrote:
1) duplication within a unit, plaguebearers and about half of the DOC book violate this already since they are equipped with magic weapons.

All magic item restrictions only apply if you have the ability to CHOOSE them. DoC don't choose. Certainly plaguebearers don't. The restrictions are in the BRB p.500

"In addition addition to specific restrictions noted in relevant armies book, there are rules that govern the SELECTION of all magic items..."

So in the case of magical arrows, Wood Elf arrows are 0-1? That seems odd.

When I buy a magic weapon for my Vampire Lord, no one else can buy it because of the restrictions in the BRB. He HAS that magic weapon, and what a special snowflake it is.

When I buy these arrows for a unit of, say, 100 Glade Guard, everyone else in the unit gets them. I don't think the rulebook really covers unit upgrades like this nor do I think they cover unique magic items over multiple units, since they are clearly different from, well, normal magic weapons/enchanted items/whatever.

Just so we are allllllll aware, Tree Singing from Calaingor's Stave can be used to hurt enemies in combat, just so every one knows.

Looking through the Wood Elf book something small popped out at me. Eternal Guard have both Asrai Spears and Hand Weapons and have access to a shield, does that mean if i buy i shield would i get the choice to either use hand weapon + Shield for a parry save or Armour Piercing from the Asrai Spear each turn? I don't know, it just seems cool to have the option, for example if you are charged by something without a great save (daemons for example) while in a forest (So the extra rank doesn't matter) it would be smarter to use the hand weapon as you would get a parry save.

Is this right? Can i choose what mundane weapon my unit uses each combat?

If you have another weapon, you have to use it over the hand weapon.

Rangers + Wailing Banner = extra attack?

The rangers get an extra attack when FIGHTING an enemy with fear or terror.

Doesn't the wailing banner just give them fear?

I believe when in BASE CONTACT with a model with fear or terror. The banner gives the unit terror(?) So then they are all in base contact with models with terror?

I'm pretty sure that they get "+1A when in base contact with an enemy causing fear or terror"
Don't quote me on that though

TanKoL wrote:
I'm pretty sure that they get "+1A when in base contact with an enemy causing fear or terror"
Don't quote me on that though

We should though because you are quite right.