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Stop whining crybaby !
And yes I can be "offensive" to him, I know the guy

I'll see when it lands but ranked baby trees seems acceptable at severely reduced pay of course.....oh and my your cheese grow ever mouldier tankol

Poison arrows are best arrows.

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
....gotta suspend our disbelief and lose ourselves in the universe.

I will suspend my disbelief so that there is magic and dragons. But the Warhammer world still obeys the laws of physics as I know them, and has similar patterns and themes as this world. So, I'll suspend my disbelief in terms of there being fey-like beings called elves that live in the woods, and that they have strange and terrible allies such as dryads.
...but I will not accept that dryads--tree-ladies that're pissed-off at tresspassers-- occasionally get beat up by pissed-off trees because they're tresspassing. Nor will I accept that pine and oak trees grow in the desert.

Warpsolution wrote:

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
....gotta suspend our disbelief and lose ourselves in the universe.

I will suspend my disbelief so that there is magic and dragons. But the Warhammer world still obeys the laws of physics as I know them, and has similar patterns and themes as this world. So, I'll suspend my disbelief in terms of there being fey-like beings called elves that live in the woods, and that they have strange and terrible allies such as dryads.
...but I will not accept that dryads--tree-ladies that're pissed-off at tresspassers-- occasionally get beat up by pissed-off trees because they're tresspassing. Nor will I accept that pine and oak trees grow in the desert.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torrey_pine

Precipitation
The last 20 years has seen San Diego average less than 10" of rain per year, making San Diego a desert... With Pine Trees. Accept it.

 Daba wrote:
Poison arrows are best arrows.

Units of 50+ shortbow-armed Goblins agree.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Daba wrote:
Poison arrows are best arrows.

Units of 50+ shortbow-armed Goblins agree.

Ha, units of 60 skeleton archers and khalida agree wholeheartedly!

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
The last 20 years has seen San Diego average less than 10" of rain per year, making San Diego a desert... With Pine Trees. Accept it.

Fine. I will. Just keep your pyramids out of it.

Warpsolution wrote:

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
....gotta suspend our disbelief and lose ourselves in the universe.

I will suspend my disbelief so that there is magic and dragons. But the Warhammer world still obeys the laws of physics as I know them, and has similar patterns and themes as this world. So, I'll suspend my disbelief in terms of there being fey-like beings called elves that live in the woods, and that they have strange and terrible allies such as dryads.
...but I will not accept that dryads--tree-ladies that're pissed-off at tresspassers-- occasionally get beat up by pissed-off trees because they're tresspassing. Nor will I accept that pine and oak trees grow in the desert.

Ha! Hilarious. Yeah, lame rule. But what are you gonna do?

Actually what ARE you going to do? Stay out of the woods? That doesn't make sense for Dryads, as you say. But I guess that Forest Strider doesn't really help foot sloggers anyway, yes? I guess you get some cover vs. shooting, but what other benefits would we get? We already cause Fear (presumably that will be the same) and we do run the risk of getting beat up. Poisoned attacks would be good. I have generally stayed away from Woods if I could help it in other games with other armies, but I would want to be in there with WE.

Oh well.

Ceann Fine wrote:
I'll see when it lands but ranked baby trees seems acceptable at severely reduced pay of course.....oh and my your cheese grow ever mouldier tankol

I'm actually quite intrigued by ranked Dryads... here's hoping they're priced appropriately (points-wise).

This whole hubbub about dryads and treekin taking wounds from forests seems fooey considering if you take the acorn, you get D3+1 free forests that YOU GET TO CHOOSE THE TYPE OF! And place them anywhere in your deployment.

I wonder how popular life is general, awakening the woods could end up recking woodies.

Well most of the time when you take life you are almost always trying to get flesh to stone, throne, dwellers and regrowth, so the only time that will happen is if your opponent takes multiple life wizards or does not roll at least one double.

Or if they intentionally take the awakening the woods spell knowing the wood elf player will be putting down more forests.

I don't see that as a problem, though, it seems like a legitimate tactic to curse the woods.

 RiTides wrote:
Or if they intentionally take the awakening the woods spell knowing the wood elf player will be putting down more forests.

I don't see that as a problem, though, it seems like a legitimate tactic to curse the woods.

Yes, I agree. If you can choose what type they are, then that allows you to use them as part of your strategy. Which is, I guess, what GW intended in this edition of the rules, making the terrain in general more magical and interactive. So that's cool; just something to be factored in.

So unit placement and set-up look to continue being integral in playing with the Wood Elves. (I have even drawn maps of deployment before big battles, creating overlapping fields of fire, movement avenues, etc.) Which is, in my opinion, part of why you would want to play WE, tactically speaking.

 RiTides wrote:
Or if they intentionally take the awakening the woods spell knowing the wood elf player will be putting down more forests.

I don't see that as a problem, though, it seems like a legitimate tactic to curse the woods.

Except they won't because the other spells are just flat out better atm.

With new models come new rules and new things to talk about!

The Sisters of the Thorn look like almost auto include. If you don't know, they are Wood Elf Warlocks, they count as a level 2 mage and always know Shield of Thorns and Curse of something or other as well as being BS 5 with Poisoned Javelins. and having a 4+ Ward.

That, plus the fact they are fast Cav so can march and shoot they seem like they will never be charged and with a 4++ they are quite survivable to shooting.

To me they seem like the perfect place to put a level 2 Dark Magic user, as that lore has a low range that complements the Javelins as well as Power from Darkness helping the Javelins (Str User). They further complement each other as Shield of Thorns can be used to regain any wounds lost from PoD.

While not good in combat and it should be avoided, a unit of 5 will be delivering 10 ASF Poison attacks plus 5 Str 4 attacks from the deer, they could help with small Archer units.

On the spells, Shield of Thorns at first seems like a bad spell when you look at it damage wise, but what you should look at it as is a nice heal with the Thorns as extra. All the while Curse of Something or Other is a massively underrated spell, as if it is cast then the unit has a -1 to hit (always nice) but more importantly if it moves AT ALL (Open terrain counts as terrain) then they must take dangerous terrain tests and fail on a 1 or 2. 1/3 of any unit lost if they move at all, letting us dictate the movement phase.

What do you think? I know i will be picking 5 up!

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
With new models come new rules and new things to talk about!

The Sisters of the Thorn look like almost auto include. If you don't know, they are Wood Elf Warlocks, they count as a level 2 mage and always know Shield of Thorns and Curse of something or other as well as being BS 5 with Poisoned Javelins. and having a 4+ Ward.

That, plus the fact they are fast Cav so can march and shoot they seem like they will never be charged and with a 4++ they are quite survivable to shooting.

To me they seem like the perfect place to put a level 2 Dark Magic user, as that lore has a low range that complements the Javelins as well as Power from Darkness helping the Javelins (Str User). They further complement each other as Shield of Thorns can be used to regain any wounds lost from PoD.

While not good in combat and it should be avoided, a unit of 5 will be delivering 10 ASF Poison attacks plus 5 Str 4 attacks from the deer, they could help with small Archer units.

On the spells, Shield of Thorns at first seems like a bad spell when you look at it damage wise, but what you should look at it as is a nice heal with the Thorns as extra. All the while Curse of Something or Other is a massively underrated spell, as if it is cast then the unit has a -1 to hit (always nice) but more importantly if it moves AT ALL (Open terrain counts as terrain) then they must take dangerous terrain tests and fail on a 1 or 2. 1/3 of any unit lost if they move at all, letting us dictate the movement phase.

What do you think? I know i will be picking 5 up!

I think it makes high elves cry. But to be fair, dark/wood elves got the super wizard fast cav. High elves got the banner to ignore them.

What I'm curious about is if a highly mobile army is viable, or if you will not have enough punch. If the fast cav core is still 24 point each, 25 of them would make my core requirement.
Do you think new wood elves will be able to do the cowbows and indians thing?

-Matt

Disclaimer: I have never played WHFB and am only now getting in to the game to pickup a WE army.

So far what I see is that Wood Elves are a highly mobile, fragile army, with a few magical tricks.

I think the key to running them well will be taking advantage of the terrain and using the Acorn to get as many extra forests as possible. Then we are looking at positioning our ranged units with durability in that terrain to continue firing armor piercing shots while our faster, or hard hitting units move around to a flank. The drycha's ability to allow a unit to "deep strike" in to a forest seems powerful and a good way to get attention off of the units camping in the forests, (the tree huggers? since they are clinging on to the cover?)

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I think it makes high elves cry. But to be fair, dark/wood elves got the super wizard fast cav. High elves got the banner to ignore them.

What I'm curious about is if a highly mobile army is viable, or if you will not have enough punch. If the fast cav core is still 24 point each, 25 of them would make my core requirement.
Do you think new wood elves will be able to do the cowbows and indians thing?

-Matt

I'm very interested in the answer to that as well, as it's the reason I want the army. I want to be fragile but hypermobile, but still be able to actually kill things if I'm smart with my movement rather than just dink off armor all game. Some of the new rules such as the armor piercing and magical arrows look like they're going to let me accomplish that.

I would very much say so, indeed i would say there is little to no point in taking any big foot units at all. For only a small amount of points more Glade Guard can become Glade Guard Scouts, gaining Scout and Skirmisher making them much more effective at dodging charges, or you could take Glade Riders who are ridiculously fast (9'' Vanguard plus 18'' march first turn!) and work very well with magic arrows, especially Arcane Bodkins (-3 to armour save) and Accurate Arrows (No modifiers...ever). Similarly Waywatchers have became simply amazing now, while they have lost KB at range they gained the amazing ability to IGNORE ARMOUR SAVES *ahem* or have Multiple Shots 2. Take in units of 5, proceed to troll.

Warhawk Riders are now the best flying units in the game, with each Hawk having almost the exact same stats as an Eagle plus Killing Blow on the charge AND an Elf Rider for less then the price of a single Great Eagle. We already know how good Sisters of the Thorn are, Wild Riders still pack a punch as do War Dancers while Dryads, Treekin and Treemen are all less fearsome.

It seems to me that a MSU Points denial SHOOT YOU IN THE FACE (well, in the side) list supported by powerful magic and Warhawks/Wild Rider chaff hunters is the list to beat for Woodies.

In case you don't know...i am very happy with this release

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I would very much say so, indeed i would say there is little to no point in taking any big foot units at all. For only a small amount of points more Glade Guard can become Glade Guard Scouts, gaining Scout and Skirmisher making them much more effective at dodging charges, or you could take Glade Riders who are ridiculously fast (9'' Vanguard plus 18'' march first turn!) and work very well with magic arrows, especially Arcane Bodkins (-3 to armour save) and Accurate Arrows (No modifiers...ever). Similarly Waywatchers have became simply amazing now, while they have lost KB at range they gained the amazing ability to IGNORE ARMOUR SAVES *ahem* or have Multiple Shots 2. Take in units of 5, proceed to troll.

Warhawk Riders are now the best flying units in the game, with each Hawk having almost the exact same stats as an Eagle plus Killing Blow on the charge AND an Elf Rider for less then the price of a single Great Eagle. We already know how good Sisters of the Thorn are, Wild Riders still pack a punch as do War Dancers while Dryads, Treekin and Treemen are all less fearsome.

It seems to me that a MSU Points denial SHOOT YOU IN THE FACE (well, in the side) list supported by powerful magic and Warhawks/Wild Rider chaff hunters is the list to beat for Woodies.

In case you don't know...i am very happy with this release

Brb, going to fling money at GW. Again.

Seriously that's what I want from WE. This is beautiful.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I would very much say so, indeed i would say there is little to no point in taking any big foot units at all. For only a small amount of points more Glade Guard can become Glade Guard Scouts, gaining Scout and Skirmisher making them much more effective at dodging charges, or you could take Glade Riders who are ridiculously fast (9'' Vanguard plus 18'' march first turn!) and work very well with magic arrows, especially Arcane Bodkins (-3 to armour save) and Accurate Arrows (No modifiers...ever). Similarly Waywatchers have became simply amazing now, while they have lost KB at range they gained the amazing ability to IGNORE ARMOUR SAVES *ahem* or have Multiple Shots 2. Take in units of 5, proceed to troll.

Warhawk Riders are now the best flying units in the game, with each Hawk having almost the exact same stats as an Eagle plus Killing Blow on the charge AND an Elf Rider for less then the price of a single Great Eagle. We already know how good Sisters of the Thorn are, Wild Riders still pack a punch as do War Dancers while Dryads, Treekin and Treemen are all less fearsome.

It seems to me that a MSU Points denial SHOOT YOU IN THE FACE (well, in the side) list supported by powerful magic and Warhawks/Wild Rider chaff hunters is the list to beat for Woodies.

In case you don't know...i am very happy with this release

Scouts, better at dodging charges? You do realise skirmishers have a larger footprint than ranked units right?

 Krellnus wrote:

Scouts, better at dodging charges? You do realise skirmishers have a larger footprint than ranked units right?

March and Shoot with free reforms. The foot print is a bit bigger, but it's a lot easier to get out of arc.
Of course, with no real hammers in the army, it's tough to keep the enemy focused in any given direction.

-Matt


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyone hear rumors on Dryads? I heard Instability, which could actually make them very useful (taking a few wounds instead of running).

Nope, they are now S3 I5 but have hatred and rank up. In short they are pretty bad now.

 Krellnus wrote:
Nope, they are now S3 I5 but have hatred and rank up. In short they are pretty bad now.

I wonder if they can work with the high magic attribute. Hold back a unit of ~35 (5 wide 7 deep) and try and beef them up with tokens. Then on the first combat if your ignoring enough wounds, you have a decent shot at winning combat and breaking steadfast.

-Matt

MSU Wood Elves do sound very nice, but I think large units still have a place in an army, especially with all the bonuses they get in forests. I think a large unit of Archers in the forest you bring would work very nicely indeed, and should take you up to minimum Core pretty easily, with a few extra units of fast cav or something added in.

What do people think about the Acorns of Ages item? An extra few forests is no doubt a huge benefit, but it's a random amount and you pay 100pts for the privilege. Will this item be an auto-include, a never-include? Or somewhere in between?

 The Shadow wrote:
MSU Wood Elves do sound very nice, but I think large units still have a place in an army, especially with all the bonuses they get in forests. I think a large unit of Archers in the forest you bring would work very nicely indeed, and should take you up to minimum Core pretty easily, with a few extra units of fast cav or something added in.

What do people think about the Acorns of Ages item? An extra few forests is no doubt a huge benefit, but it's a random amount and you pay 100pts for the privilege. Will this item be an auto-include, a never-include? Or somewhere in between?

I dunno about the acorn. It does say that they have to be GW woods.

Tree nerf gives them a more defensive role. Notably it makes Wood Elves the only Elves without an offensive monster unless you're using forest dragons.

Standard archery has more options, but requires much more thought than before. Scouts are interesting.

Wild/Warhawk Riders became much more glass cannon-y.

Oddly, the great weapon troops, while capable of providing some anti-armour muscle, still aren't too good compared with their analogues from other Elf books.

Wood Elf Doomfire Warlocks O_______O oh and Waywatchers are crazy now

Tyranno wrote:
Tree nerf gives them a more defensive role. Notably it makes Wood Elves the only Elves without an offensive monster unless you're using forest dragons.

Standard archery has more options, but requires much more thought than before. Scouts are interesting.

Wild/Warhawk Riders became much more glass cannon-y.

Oddly, the great weapon troops, while capable of providing some anti-armour muscle, still aren't too good compared with their analogues from other Elf books.

Wood Elf Doomfire Warlocks O_______O oh and Waywatchers are crazy now

The Treekin actually got a major boost, albeit indirectly. Now that the army has access to lore of life, you can make Treekin WS10 with ASF. Which is always what they needed. A bonus to hit, or rerolls. I still think there are better options in the book though.

The Rangers are a hybrid of black guard and executioners. They are really glass cannon-y though. They're going to be brutal in the hands of a skilled player, notsomuch in the hands of a less-than-skilled player. Like the Sisters of the Thorn.

Onto them, that miscast. It actually has an effect! The spell selection is meh though. Curse is a good spell, but it's not a super good spell. Whereas brolocks have two spells that synergise with each other and the rest of the army, they have curse and awakening. Two spells that need support from the rest of their respective lores. The whole point of Curse is to draw dice out so you can throw out spears and buffs. As for Awakening, don't even get me started on Life magic.

Waywatchers are looking to be a 1+ again though. Which I like, as they are awesome models.


On an unrelated note, WHY DO THE SHADOWDANCER AND WAYSTALKER EXIST!

Heroes with a 25 point magic item allowance AND one of them has a 60 point upgrade to become a level 1. Utterly pointless. Wardancers however, have become useful, in that they have ASF so can focus on that sweet, sweet 3+ ward.