Prosecutors in Houston, Texas charged a middle school teacher because she gave a full-on lap dance to a boy for his birthday in front of an entire class of no-doubt impressed preteens.
The teacher, Felicia Smith, staged the lap dance in her classroom at Stovall Middle School on February 26, reports local CBS affiliate KHOU.
When police interviewed the unnamed student, he said Smith, 42, had seductively placed a school chair in front of the classroom after the tardy bell rang. Music began to play – from some undisclosed source – and several students in the class began yelling raucously that the birthday boy should sit down in the chair.
Once the kid sat down, the fortysomething teacher gave him what was perhaps his first full-contact lap dance. According to a police report, Smith did the thing where she turned around and swiveled her butt on the middle school student. She rubbed her hands all over his body. She also got down on her knees and stuck her head between the boy’s legs.
It’s not clear if the kid enjoyed the lap dance. However, he admitted that he did slap Smith’s ass a couple times.
The incident lasted a little over three-and-a-half minutes — presumably the duration of the song that was playing. It’s not clear which song was chosen for the special occasion.
At the end of the lap dance, Smith hugged the boy and told him, “I love you, baby. Happy birthday,” according to KHOU.
When police questioned Smith, she said she provided the lap dance at the urging of students in the class. She noted that she almost fell down a few times while performing the acrobatics required of the lap dance.
Somebody – it’s not clear who – apparently filmed the spectacle. The Harris County district attorney and the Aldine, Texas police department both have copies of the video.
Smith faces a single criminal charge: improper relationship with student. She is free on a $30,000 bond.
A statement released by the local school district explained that Smith “was removed from the campus during the investigation and has not returned.”
It’s not clear if she is still being paid while her criminal case meanders through the court system.
My favorite part:
It’s not clear if the kid enjoyed the lap dance. However, he admitted that he did slap Smith’s ass a couple times.
If I weren't on my tablet, I'd post that section from South Park's Miss Teacher Bangs A Boy where Kyle tells the cops the teacher is sleeping with Ike.
Our high school chemistry teacher was suspected of sleeping with tenth grade guys. She was 25, a redhead, and had tits the size of watermelons. The school canned her, and hired a middle aged guy who is actually the relative of a famous celebrity. I'm leaving names out as it would actually be excessively easy to track down who is who by giving names, and I have no desire to see the hot chem teacher get in trouble by telling who her replacement was, thus figuring out her name. Of course, she's about 40 now, but still, I bet she's still hot as hell.
It is a valuable life skill. One wrong move and bam, the cops are walking you out the door while she screams at the arresting officer "no one's treated me that way since my father!"
LordofHats wrote: It is a valuable life skill. One wrong move and bam, the cops are walking you out the door while she screams at the arresting officer "no one's treated me that way since my father!"
See, this just supports my opinion on high school - 4/5 of the crap they teach you is useless. How many times have you measured the shadow of a tree to figure out how tall the tree is? A third of high school ought to be useful life lessons. How to change a fuse, how to check/change your oil, balance a checkbook, snake a drain, basic - and I mean basic cooking lessons, how to drive stick, basic recognition of how advertisements lie to you, how to not get bounced out of a stripclub/bar ..... but instead they teach pottery like it has some intrinsic social worth. Holy crap, I made a whistle.
LordofHats wrote: It is a valuable life skill. One wrong move and bam, the cops are walking you out the door while she screams at the arresting officer "no one's treated me that way since my father!"
See, this just supports my opinion on high school - 4/5 of the crap they teach you is useless. How many times have you measured the shadow of a tree to figure out how tall the tree is? A third of high school ought to be useful life lessons. How to change a fuse, how to check/change your oil, balance a checkbook, snake a drain, basic - and I mean basic cooking lessons, how to drive stick, basic recognition of how advertisements lie to you, how to not get bounced out of a stripclub/bar ..... but instead they teach pottery like it has some intrinsic social worth. Holy crap, I made a whistle.
Indeed, I didn't learn much anything useful between the ages of 14 and 18.
We could probably revolutionize our school system if we cut High School down to 5 classes. Algebra, basic maintenance of household equipment and vehicles, cooking, personal finances, and your choice of a practical elective(some sort of trade skill. Like Welding, Carpentry, Painting, etc...)
Boom, cut High School down to 2 years and create functioning adults.
Platuan4th wrote: If I weren't on my tablet, I'd post that section from South Park's Miss Teacher Bangs A Boy where Kyle tells the cops the teacher is sleeping with Ike.
Glad I'm not the only one that immediately thought of this.
Bromsy wrote: How many times have you measured the shadow of a tree to figure out how tall the tree is?
Never, but I've certainly done enough other trig calculations using the same principles. The point isn't to learn practical tree-measuring skills, it's to understand how math works.
Grey Templar wrote: Boom, cut High School down to 2 years and create functioning adults.
Well, as long as you define "functioning" as "not qualified for college or any high-end jobs". And as long as you don't value education for its own sake.
Jihadnik wrote: Kids have to learn about that stuff somewhere, and if their parents won't teach them...
No. Educating is one thing, experiencing is another. Even if the guy the lap dance was performed on was ready for it, it does not mean the other students in the class were. One should be extra prudent about anything related to sex, and clearly, from a teacher and therefore an authority figure, that was very wrong.
Thing with these 'sex with a teacher' style cases, you know the kid probably doesn't see it as a horrible abuse of his innocence. Heck if I had ever got to dance the horizontal tango with the hot teacher in our school and word got out about it, the only trouble I would have had would have been painfully sore hands from the sheer volume of random hi-fives from people as I walked past.
Really what im saying is that perhaps we need to lighten up a little on the whole 'appropriate behaviour for a teacher' thing, maybe if they weren't legally required to act like crusty old humourless farts, kids might actually want to go to school and learn.
At te end of the day it was a bit of harmless fun, not like she was luring him back to her gingerbread house to eat him or anything, the kid is probably basking in the glory, and no one got hurt so just give her a warning and get on with more important issues
Well, as long as you define "functioning" as "not qualified for college or any high-end jobs". And as long as you don't value education for its own sake.
Not to stray too far off topic, but if the school system was really interested in educating its students, it would give them more options for things to learn rather than just forcing a random hodgepodge of subjects on them. For example, someone interested in a career in mathematics should not be required to take three years of history or language. Someone interested in becoming an English teacher should not be required to take pre-calculus. The American school system enforces this idea of bringing up "well-rounded students" when all they're doing is teaching the majority of students lots of extraneous information in the place of other, more practical and important information such as:
- How to balance a checkbook. - How to pay taxes - What taxes are. - How to apply for student loans. - How to write a resume. - Basic electrical knowledge. - How to open a business. - How to register to vote. - Social issues. - Human sexuality. - How the government works. (Government is an, often under-developed, requirement or elective in most public and private schools.) - Basic socio/psychological principles.
The American school system doesn't educate kids for the sake of educating them or helping them when they get out. It gives them what they think is a "well-rounded education" when in all reality they are only achieving two things. First, they are giving jobs to all the people that became teachers so that they can teach these kids things they will likely never use for any practical application in their life. Two, they are wasting the important developmental years of a persons life by bogging it down with lots of extraneous information while that time could be used for teaching them practical skills and trades or helping to craft a future that is conducive with the field they want to go into. Four years out of the awful years that were high school and I have yet to use the majority of the information I learned in it. Did it teach important things? Yes. Did those important things require four years of education? No. I learned more in my first two years out of school, working and living on my own, than I ever did in school. The most important of the things that I learned was how poorly the school system did at preparing me for the real world. Thank the Emperor that I have parents because without them, I'd be completely lost on the financial and political aspects of life.
But hey, at least I know all about Ernest Hemingway and life in Ancient Greece.
Thing with these 'sex with a teacher' style cases, you know the kid probably doesn't see it as a horrible abuse of his innocence. Heck if I had ever got to dance the horizontal tango with the hot teacher in our school and word got out about it, the only trouble I would have had would have been painfully sore hands from the sheer volume of random hi-fives from people as I walked past.
Really what im saying is that perhaps we need to lighten up a little on the whole 'appropriate behaviour for a teacher' thing, maybe if they weren't legally required to act like crusty old humourless farts, kids might actually want to go to school and learn.
At te end of the day it was a bit of harmless fun, not like she was luring him back to her gingerbread house to eat him or anything, the kid is probably basking in the glory, and no one got hurt so just give her a warning and get on with more important issues
You are reminding me of that video Feeder post in this very section :
Jihadnik wrote: Kids have to learn about that stuff somewhere, and if their parents won't teach them...
No. Educating is one thing, experiencing is another. Even if the guy the lap dance was performed on was ready for it, it does not mean the other students in the class were. One should be extra prudent about anything related to sex, and clearly, from a teacher and therefore an authority figure, that was very wrong.
Congratulations on not understanding sarcasm...slow claps all around...
Thing with these 'sex with a teacher' style cases, you know the kid probably doesn't see it as a horrible abuse of his innocence. Heck if I had ever got to dance the horizontal tango with the hot teacher in our school and word got out about it, the only trouble I would have had would have been painfully sore hands from the sheer volume of random hi-fives from people as I walked past.
Really what im saying is that perhaps we need to lighten up a little on the whole 'appropriate behaviour for a teacher' thing, maybe if they weren't legally required to act like crusty old humourless farts, kids might actually want to go to school and learn.
At te end of the day it was a bit of harmless fun, not like she was luring him back to her gingerbread house to eat him or anything, the kid is probably basking in the glory, and no one got hurt so just give her a warning and get on with more important issues
Well, as long as you define "functioning" as "not qualified for college or any high-end jobs". And as long as you don't value education for its own sake.
Not to stray too far off topic, but if the school system was really interested in educating its students, it would give them more options for things to learn rather than just forcing a random hodgepodge of subjects on them. For example, someone interested in a career in mathematics should not be required to take three years of history or language. Someone interested in becoming an English teacher should not be required to take pre-calculus. The American school system enforces this idea of bringing up "well-rounded students" when all they're doing is teaching the majority of students lots of extraneous information in the place of other, more practical and important information such as:
- How to balance a checkbook.
- How to pay taxes
- What taxes are.
- How to apply for student loans.
- How to write a resume.
- Basic electrical knowledge.
- How to open a business.
- How to register to vote.
- Social issues.
- Human sexuality.
- How the government works. (Government is an, often under-developed, requirement or elective in most public and private schools.)
- Basic socio/psychological principles.
The American school system doesn't educate kids for the sake of educating them or helping them when they get out. It gives them what they think is a "well-rounded education" when in all reality they are only achieving two things. First, they are giving jobs to all the people that became teachers so that they can teach these kids things they will likely never use for any practical application in their life. Two, they are wasting the important developmental years of a persons life by bogging it down with lots of extraneous information while that time could be used for teaching them practical skills and trades or helping to craft a future that is conducive with the field they want to go into. Four years out of the awful years that were high school and I have yet to use the majority of the information I learned in it. Did it teach important things? Yes. Did those important things require four years of education? No. I learned more in my first two years out of school, working and living on my own, than I ever did in school. The most important of the things that I learned was how poorly the school system did at preparing me for the real world. Thank the Emperor that I have parents because without them, I'd be completely lost on the financial and political aspects of life.
But hey, at least I know all about Ernest Hemingway and life in Ancient Greece.
I'm gonna go right ahead and sit on the fence here. While I get that academia is actually important for high end jobs, the fact of the matter is that not everyone uses Maths, English, Science - I'll probably never use trigonometry, being a writer and all - but then we run into the issue of practical education. What I mean by that is, why are people not taught the useful things that they will almost certainly need; how to cook, how to change a tire, basic social etiquette (no, really. Some people just don't know how to behave). Before people point out how trivial some of this stuff is, I'd like to remind them that I had to do sports as part of my education, learn about Ancient Greece, etc, and study maths, all at the same time. Conversely, I have no idea how half of the stuff in my house works, have no idea what the hell I do if/when I become a Dad, and am buggered if I'm handed a P45. What do I do with it? All I can say is, thank God for Google.
But similarly, English is pretty damn important for me. I wouldn't want guys that haven't been taught Maths working at NASA (well, the important parts anyway). So really, it's less about what is taught, just when that stuff is relevant. The way I see it, basic life skills should be taught from an early age, alongside basic Maths, English, Science, etc, before becoming more specialised later on.
It’s not clear if the kid enjoyed the lap dance. However, he admitted that he did slap Smith’s ass a couple times.
I know this is a serious article, but it really isn't written like one at all.
I blame pornography. Young men watch plenty of teacher-student videos, but I don't doubt that the teachers watch the same things. Same with landlords and plumbers. They get these crazy ideas in their heads and just run with them.
usernamesareannoying wrote: how about if she blew him instead... would that have been ok too? no one got hurt right?
I had a couple (far too few) high school and middle school teachers for which that would have been more than okay, looking back at myself as a teenager.
Not to stray too far off topic, but if the school system was really interested in educating its students, it would give them more options for things to learn rather than just forcing a random hodgepodge of subjects on them. For example, someone interested in a career in mathematics should not be required to take three years of history or language. Someone interested in becoming an English teacher should not be required to take pre-calculus. The American school system enforces this idea of bringing up "well-rounded students" when all they're doing is teaching the majority of students lots of extraneous information in the place of other, more practical and important information such as:
Sounds like your school did suck. However, just because someone's interested in becoming an English teacher while in high school doesn't mean that they will, at which point they'll be glad to have those basic math skills when they're instead learning to be an electrician or get a desk job doing beancounting for some or other corporation because their interest changed or they just couldn't cut it. That's rather the point of giving an all-round education in high school. Everyone, regardless of what they're going to be later in life has to go to high school, so it has to teach things that are applicable to the broadest possible range of future careers. Thus, everyone has to learn a little bit of everything, because the schools don't have the resources to tailor to every single student's demands, and if they tailor to only one target group of future careers, the others will rightfully call foul, and if they cater to none, it might as well be abolished and the students sent directly to trade schools or onto the job market.
- How to balance a checkbook.
- How to pay taxes
- What taxes are.
Um, doesn't this get taught in economy classes? Same goes for opening a business (see below).
- How to apply for student loans.
We did get taught this in the Netherlands. At least, I was, but I graduated high school over 15 years ago. It may have changed.
- How to write a resume.
Language skill. Got taught this in Dutch (and German) classes. Less so in English and French, but that would be redundant.
- Basic electrical knowledge.
Physics? As for how to change a fuse, maybe ask your dad? Parents should also take an active role in educating their children, and extremely minor, everyday things like that are exactly the kind of thing that any reasonably intuitive person can learn from their parents.
- How to open a business.
- How to register to vote.
- Social issues.
- Human sexuality.
- How the government works. (Government is an, often under-developed, requirement or elective in most public and private schools.)
- Basic socio/psychological principles.
Same thing goes for a lot of these. I have 0 interest in opening my own business. Why should I be forced to learn how? Also, economy class. Social issues, were handled in social classes, as well as history and (depending on teacher enthusiasm, sometimes, in language classes as well, as social issues often follow from cultural norms, and a language class also teaches a bit of the culture of the country in question. Also, parents should definitely be engaged in this one.
Sexuality? Biology, or for you Americans, apparently a separate class called sex ed. But here, also parents should take an active role (um, not too active, though, before anyone gets any funny ideas :-P).
How the government works? History class went into it in depth. I've forgotten most of it, but I do know how it works.
The American school system doesn't educate kids for the sake of educating them or helping them when they get out. It gives them what they think is a "well-rounded education" when in all reality they are only achieving two things. First, they are giving jobs to all the people that became teachers so that they can teach these kids things they will likely never use for any practical application in their life. Two, they are wasting the important developmental years of a persons life by bogging it down with lots of extraneous information while that time could be used for teaching them practical skills and trades or helping to craft a future that is conducive with the field they want to go into. Four years out of the awful years that were high school and I have yet to use the majority of the information I learned in it. Did it teach important things? Yes. Did those important things require four years of education? No. I learned more in my first two years out of school, working and living on my own, than I ever did in school. The most important of the things that I learned was how poorly the school system did at preparing me for the real world. Thank the Emperor that I have parents because without them, I'd be completely lost on the financial and political aspects of life.
But hey, at least I know all about Ernest Hemingway and life in Ancient Greece.
I use most of the stuff that I learned in high school. Not everything all the time, but enough of it at one time or another that I certainly don't think any of it was wasted. And hey, if your teacher was a decent storyteller, those stories about ancient Greece like Thermopylae and Marathon and Socrates and his poison cup kicked butt!
d-usa wrote: Common Core people, not Common Whore....
That's what you get when you let the Federal Government mess with our education.
These two sentences have just proved why we need a good and strong education system.
A small side note, excellent products of sentence structure and grammar. I would say high school did far more for many people than the ones that are saying it did not.
Not to stray too far off topic, but if the school system was really interested in educating its students, it would give them more options for things to learn rather than just forcing a random hodgepodge of subjects on them. For example, someone interested in a career in mathematics should not be required to take three years of history or language. Someone interested in becoming an English teacher should not be required to take pre-calculus. The American school system enforces this idea of bringing up "well-rounded students" when all they're doing is teaching the majority of students lots of extraneous information in the place of other, more practical and important information such as:
While I get what you mean here, you go a little too far. Even in Mathematics, the ability to write and write well is extremely important. Mathematical proofs in practice aren't just a bunch of numbers but a long triad bordering on philosophy to explain the numbers. History as well is commonly overlooked in other academic fields. Any scientist or mathematician, should know the history of their field. Not to mention that in practical aspects of politics and being a well informed citizen, history is probably one of the most important academic disciplines.
The goal of education shouldn't just be to get people good jobs it should be to make them capable citizens able to understand the world around them. Our education system's liberal arts model is flawed, not pointless. We don't run it well or fund it properly so it has ended up not producing desired results. We've also arguably overly politicized the classroom over the past few decades.
Earnest Hemingway, while culturally relevant to anyone studying literature, isn't really a relevant modern topic in everyday life. The history of Greece on the other hand...
Quite honestly, if this happened to me I would have felt really uncomfortable and I don't know if I would have been able to ever attend that class again without feeling horribly awkward. But I'm kinda weird so I guess there you go.
Anyway, I do so wish that Home Economics was still an option in my high school. I don't care whether you're a man or woman, the stuff they teach in that class is dang useful and I would have loved to have got some of it taught to me in a formal setting.
Also I don't think that the only point of education should be to prepare you for a job. I guess I'm probably biased because I went to a charter school that was really into the humanities (history and literature and such) but some basic knowledge of history and human culture is important. I want people to understand where we've been as a species and what various people have thought. I'll admit that I've failed on this a lot sicne high school since most of our classes end up as debates so I kinda got sick of hearing about philosophy/politics. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be taught (do what I say not what I do and such)
(I'm not going to quote the posts, it's approaching wall of text territory)
@Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl & usernamesareannoying
Firstly, I do not condone rape in any form, nor find it hilarious, in fact it's one of those crimes I feel particularly strong about in terms of what should happen to the people convicted of it. Please do not assume that because I do not find anything morally outrageous in this case that I possess such a degenerate sexual morality as possesed by that video...
All I'm trying to say is in this case, I don't think there was much harm done, I mean, you don't slap the ass of a person giving you an impromptu lapdance if you are horrificially traumatised by it. If anything, the kid was probably a little embarrased, but I know if I was in his position I would probably be able to walk it off without too much issue.
There is most definately a line between being provocative while messing around and predatory behaviour, in this case, in my opinion no real harm done. But that's not to say there aren't boundaries that should never be crossed between a teacher and a student, and I'm certainly not saying that it's all harmless fun[/b], I am fully aware that much pain and suffering is caused by teachers using their positions of trust to predate upon and abuse students, for which the abusers should be punished very harshly.
I should point out, that where I grew up, people tended to grow up pretty fast once they hit puberty, so I may have a bit of a skewed mindset on this. Specifically pertaining to the 'blew him' comment, I would say that in my school, if a random 14 year old student was offered said act by a teacher, about 80% would have had no qualms with indulging in it, and would probably have attained local legend status in doing so, but like I say, my little corner of the south wales valleys is quite different from a lot of the world.
EDIT: In trying to avoid a wall-of-text, I accidentally double-posted creating, you guessed it, a wall of text
@Leigen_Zero - the biggest point to be taken is that school is not the place for this, especially by the people we trust to watch and teach our children.
LordofHats wrote: It is a valuable life skill. One wrong move and bam, the cops are walking you out the door while she screams at the arresting officer "no one's treated me that way since my father!"
See, this just supports my opinion on high school - 4/5 of the crap they teach you is useless. How many times have you measured the shadow of a tree to figure out how tall the tree is? A third of high school ought to be useful life lessons. How to change a fuse, how to check/change your oil, balance a checkbook, snake a drain, basic - and I mean basic cooking lessons, how to drive stick, basic recognition of how advertisements lie to you, how to not get bounced out of a stripclub/bar ..... but instead they teach pottery like it has some intrinsic social worth. Holy crap, I made a whistle.
Indeed, I didn't learn much anything useful between the ages of 14 and 18.
We could probably revolutionize our school system if we cut High School down to 5 classes. Algebra, basic maintenance of household equipment and vehicles, cooking, personal finances, and your choice of a practical elective(some sort of trade skill. Like Welding, Carpentry, Painting, etc...)
Boom, cut High School down to 2 years and create functioning adults.
Hell, why bother with all that edumacashun stuff at all? Teach 'em to add and how to read the Bible, then at 10 years old send the nippers up the bloody chimenies, or put them to work cleaning out factory machinery with their wee hands - much cheaper than adult labour, and if they lose a limb, well, life's tough, better we learn 'em that young.
If you didn't learn anything useful at school, unless you had a recognised learning disability the problem usually isn't school, it's you. And just because you weren't willing to put in the effort to better yourself through learning doesn't mean society should deprive those who are of the opportunity.
That video was not about how rape could be hilarious. That was just the provocative title. It was basically to show that even if you are supposed to enjoy sex, if it is not your decision, or if you are in any way pressured into it, especially by an adult that is in charge of you, it is very wrong. Maybe if you had been in his position you would have genuinely enjoyed it. It may not be the case for others, though. And that is a risk no teacher should be willing to take, ever.
LordofHats wrote:Earnest Hemingway, while culturally relevant to anyone studying literature, isn't really a relevant modern topic in everyday life. The history of Greece on the other hand...
I don't know, his work is very good and learning about his personal life shows kids that mental illness and addiction doesn't give a gak about your fame or massive talent. Yes, Ancient Greece is cool.
Leigen_Zero wrote:
Firstly, I do not condone rape in any form, nor find it hilarious, in fact it's one of those crimes I feel particularly strong about in terms of what should happen to the people convicted of it. Please do not assume that because I do not find anything morally outrageous in this case that I possess such a degenerate sexual morality as possesed by that video...
I suggest you actually watch the video. He powerfully contradicts everything you just said.
Would we have been more okay with this if it was a senior in high school who had just turned 18? I mean, honestly, it was middle schoolers. That's a big deal. But a student just turning 18? Would she still have gotten in trouble? Yeah. Would it have been as long-term? Maybe not. I'm thinking she wanted to be "the cool teacher". Hell, when I was subbing, I was the cool sub, and lap dances were NOT the cause of it. I closed the door, told the seniors they were adults and that I didn't give a gak if they swore in class-if they behaved as adults, I'd treat them as adults. If they behaved as kids, I'd take away privileges. Worked for all but two of them. I also let the seniors have cell phones out during study hall, and the only discussions I broke up were the ones about parties-I told them to shut it, because I had no desire to report them-or I'd ask "you guys are only drinking root beer, right?" Seniors will be seniors. Hell, I did it when I was their age, and so did most of you, I'd gather. They knew they weren't getting away with anything I didn't let them. I also proved on a daily basis that I didn't fall for any of their BS, and now that I'm done and most of the students I had have graduated, I'm actually friends with some of them. Have a bunch of them on my Xbox live friendlist. Again...that's being a "cool" teacher without crossing the line. This lady took a thermonuclear device to the line by doing this with middle schoolers.
And yes, I did swear in front of the seniors to get my point across that it was okay. People swear in the business world. My boss drops about 5-10 F-bombs any given morning. Coddling 17 and 18 year olds is a recipe for disaster.
Leigen_Zero wrote: (I'm not going to quote the posts, it's approaching wall of text territory)
@Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl & usernamesareannoying
Firstly, I do not condone rape in any form, nor find it hilarious, in fact it's one of those crimes I feel particularly strong about in terms of what should happen to the people convicted of it. Please do not assume that because I do not find anything morally outrageous in this case that I possess such a degenerate sexual morality as possesed by that video...
And with this line you prove to everyone that you didn't actually watch the video you're condemning.
Leigen_Zero wrote: (I'm not going to quote the posts, it's approaching wall of text territory)
@Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl & usernamesareannoying
Firstly, I do not condone rape in any form, nor find it hilarious, in fact it's one of those crimes I feel particularly strong about in terms of what should happen to the people convicted of it. Please do not assume that because I do not find anything morally outrageous in this case that I possess such a degenerate sexual morality as possesed by that video...
All I'm trying to say is in this case, I don't think there was much harm done, I mean, you don't slap the ass of a person giving you an impromptu lapdance if you are horrificially traumatised by it. If anything, the kid was probably a little embarrased, but I know if I was in his position I would probably be able to walk it off without too much issue.
There is most definately a line between being provocative while messing around and predatory behaviour, in this case, in my opinion no real harm done. But that's not to say there aren't boundaries that should never be crossed between a teacher and a student, and I'm certainly not saying that it's all harmless fun[/b], I am fully aware that much pain and suffering is caused by teachers using their positions of trust to predate upon and abuse students, for which the abusers should be punished very harshly.
I should point out, that where I grew up, people tended to grow up pretty fast once they hit puberty, so I may have a bit of a skewed mindset on this. Specifically pertaining to the 'blew him' comment, I would say that in my school, if a random 14 year old student was offered said act by a teacher, about 80% would have had no qualms with indulging in it, and would probably have attained local legend status in doing so, but like I say, my little corner of the south wales valleys is quite different from a lot of the world.
EDIT: In trying to avoid a wall-of-text, I accidentally double-posted creating, you guessed it, a wall of text
Are you a parent? I ask because any parent I know, myself included and possibly most here that are parents would probably be willing to heavily prosecute any teacher that came on to our children like you seem to defend and say, "no harm done".
Relapse wrote: If a 40 something male teacher had one of his students do a lap dance for him, I think it would be a safe bet the comments would be far more outraged.
I think the accurate analogy would be if a male teacher would have given a female student a lapdance.
So far as a hypocritical reaction based on sex, i'm not sure, I mean I think it's pretty much universally agreed that she should be fired, right? In neither situation (male teacher, female teacher) would a severe prosecution be appropriate, in my opinion, presuming a first time offender. It was obviously an incredibly stupid thing that showed an inappropriateness as a teacher but I don't think it quite rose to the level of a criminal action other than what was charged - inappropriate relationship with student.
I do think there is a huge, huge imbalance between sentencing of sex predators as teachers when they are female instead of male that needs to be addressed both in our perception as a society ("nice!" is bs acceptance of rape) and legislatively, but I don't think this was quite a sexual assault.
Darth Bob wrote: For example, someone interested in a career in mathematics should not be required to take three years of history or language.
Because 10-17 years old can always accurately predict what career they will end up in.
Someone interested in becoming an English teacher should not be required to take pre-calculus.
Because developping and exercising your cognitive abilities is a waste of time.
The American school system enforces this idea of bringing up "well-rounded students" when all they're doing is teaching the majority of students lots of extraneous information in the place of other, more practical and important information such as:
- How to balance a checkbook. 9th grade economics or 7th grade home ec, for those schools that still have them - How to pay taxes same thing - What taxes are. 3rd grade civic course - How to apply for student loans. mandatory college orientation class - How to write a resume. 11th grade language course - Basic electrical knowledge. 7th and 8th grade physics, also 8th grade workshop classes - How to open a business. college economics classes or either university level business or law classes - How to register to vote. 3rd grade civic course - Social issues. either 3rd grade civic courses, 7th grade religion course, or any language class with debates - Human sexuality. 6th grade sexuality course, 7th grade religion course, 9th and 10th grade biology courses - How the government works. (Government is an, often under-developed, requirement or elective in most public and private schools.) 3rd grade civic course, 7th grade history course, or mandatory college political course - Basic socio/psychological principles.just about every non-natural science courses, basically.
Either there is a gaping abyss between our two educational systems, or you should sue your parents for sending you to such gakky schools.
- How to balance a checkbook. never
- How to pay taxes likely never, but small chance in PiG
- What taxes are. fourth grade American history: they're bad!! Feth King George
- How to apply for student loans. economics: you should fill these out
- How to write a resume. 12th grade English
- Basic electrical knowledge. 7th grade tech, 12th grade physics, smattering in 8th grade physical science
- How to open a business. business class that didn't catch on with students until after I graduated
- How to register to vote. possible PiG, I slept through most of it though
- Social issues. too broad a topic-covered everywhere
- Human sexuality. 7th grade health, senior health, 9th/10th grade biology, listen to the older kids in the back of the bus
- How the government works. (Government is an, often under-developed, requirement or elective in most public and private schools.) 11th grade US history, 12th PiG
- Basic socio/psychological principles. pretty sure this didn't exist in my scool. All psych classes I took were college only.
Either there is a gaping abyss between our two educational systems, or you should sue your parents for sending you to such gakky schools.
Adjusted to how my old school did it when I was there, over a decade ago
*PiG stands for "Participation in Government", for anybody who didn't know.
Relapse wrote: If a 40 something male teacher had one of his students do a lap dance for him, I think it would be a safe bet the comments would be far more outraged.
I think the accurate analogy would be if a male teacher would have given a female student a lapdance.
So far as a hypocritical reaction based on sex, i'm not sure, I mean I think it's pretty much universally agreed that she should be fired, right? In neither situation (male teacher, female teacher) would a severe prosecution be appropriate, in my opinion, presuming a first time offender. It was obviously an incredibly stupid thing that showed an inappropriateness as a teacher but I don't think it quite rose to the level of a criminal action other than what was charged - inappropriate relationship with student.
I do think there is a huge, huge imbalance between sentencing of sex predators as teachers when they are female instead of male that needs to be addressed both in our perception as a society ("nice!" is bs acceptance of rape) and legislatively, but I don't think this was quite a sexual assault.
I am speaking as a parent and based the damage I have seen this do to families.
Relapse wrote: I am speaking as a parent and based the damage I have seen this do to families.
You've seen a lot of male teachers give lap dances to students? What school district are you in? And what does being a parent have to do with it? Is there a study somewhere that says adults (or teens) without children are ok with hurting kids, but only parents think it is bad?
Relapse wrote: I am speaking as a parent and based the damage I have seen this do to families.
You've seen a lot of male teachers give lap dances to students? What school district are you in? And what does being a parent have to do with it? Is there a study somewhere that says adults (or teens) without children are ok with hurting kids, but only parents think it is bad?
You know what I meant, and if you bother to take a look at some of the posts going on in this thread, it's pretty clear there are some here that don't seem bothered by it that most likely aren't parents.
Relapse wrote: If a 40 something male teacher had one of his students do a lap dance for him, I think it would be a safe bet the comments would be far more outraged.
Yes. There are lots of double standards when it comes to males and females. I get that we're trying to pretend everything works exactly the same for both genders (or are we at the point where I have to use "all" instead of "both"?), but it's just not true.
Yes. There are lots of double standards when it comes to males and females. I get that we're trying to pretend everything works exactly the same for both genders (or are we at the point where I have to use "all" instead of "both"?), but it's just not true.
Indeed, the problems are different.
For male students it is assumed a fantasy is being played out .
For female students it is the issue of force, and occasionally fantasy; though both are seen as naughty.
I am speaking as a parent and based the damage I have seen this do to families.
So your concern yourself with the family, and not the child?
I concern myself with everyone involved. I thought that was pretty obvious. Don't even try to twist my words on this one, Dogma, I had a daughter that a molestor tried to get at, and would have if my wife hadn't been on hand to stop him, so don't pretend I have no care about the child.
You are equating a clothed lap dance in a public place with child molestation? Sure it was stupid, but it seems a bit much to pretend they are the same.
Ahtman wrote: You are equating a clothed lap dance in a public place with child molestation? Sure it was stupid, but it seems a bit much to pretend they are the same.
Ahtman wrote: You are equating a clothed lap dance in a public place with child molestation? Sure it was stupid, but it seems a bit much to pretend they are the same.
I totaly equal it.
Well that is incredibly stupid. I've worked with kids who were molested and this doesn't even begin to come close to what they go through in any way shape or form.
Ahtman wrote: You are equating a clothed lap dance in a public place with child molestation? Sure it was stupid, but it seems a bit much to pretend they are the same.
I totaly equal it.
Well that is incredibly stupid. I've worked with kids who were molested and this doesn't even begin to come close to what they go through in any way shape or form.
See what you think if you ever have the day(which I pray you don't) a child of yours has a similar experience.
Yes, because a guilty trip makes lap dances = rape. I feel so terrible now. How could I not have thought of the children... Who got lap dances and are now permanently scared for life because... they got a lap dance...
A teacher giving out lap dances to kids is easily capable of more.
So, lap dances don't equal rape? Phew. And here I thought we were entering the twilight zone where assault is manslaughter and firing on the enemy is war crimes and other crazy equations of lesser evils with greater ones.
See what you think if you ever have the day(which I pray you don't) a child of yours has a similar experience.
Yes, because a guilty trip makes lap dances = rape. I feel so terrible now. How could I not have thought of the children... Who got lap dances and are now permanently scared for life because... they got a lap dance...
A teacher giving out lap dances to kids is easily capable of more.
So, lap dances don't equal rape? Phew. And here I thought we were entering the twilight zone where assault is manslaughter and firing on the enemy is war crimes and other crazy equations of lesser evils with greater ones.
I concern myself with everyone involved. I thought that was pretty obvious.
It obviously wasn't. Based on your comments I think your concern is about how you want families to be, not about children.
Says the man who continually posts he doesn't care what happens to others if it doesn't affect him. You aren't even worth responding to on this anymore.
Did he ever say it did? I thought he said molestation.
Thank you for picking up on that. It appears you are the only one that did.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My point is proven though, there are those here who really don't care and think it's a joke because it's a woman that molested the kid.
Good point. Child molestation actually results in more psychological damage in most cases than the rape of an adult. Both are still a completely separate world from getting an inappropriate lap dance from your teacher.
That kid is going to be fine. gak is gonna be weird, but he's not going to suffer any kind of prolonged trauma like a victim of prolonged and overt sex abuse. Comparing the two for even a moment is devoid of reality.
Good point. Child molestation actually results in more psychological damage in most cases than the rape of an adult. Both are still a completely separate world from getting an inappropriate lap dance from your teacher.
That kid is going to be fine. gak is gonna be weird, but he's not going to suffer any kind of prolonged trauma like a victim of prolonged and overt sex abuse. Comparing the two for even a moment is devoid of reality.
Says the man who continually posts he doesn't care what happens to others if it doesn't affect him. You aren't even worth responding to on this anymore.
I don't see how my prior comments are relevant to this conversation.
Are you trying to attribute false quotes to me now? Pretty lame.
If you don't want to be called out on what you say, then maybe you should be more careful about what you say. Comparing the situation in the OP to any form of sex abuse is going to raise a lot of eyebrows anywhere you go.
Are you trying to attribute false quotes to me now? Pretty lame.
If you don't want to be called out on what you say, then maybe you should be more careful about what you say. Comparing the situation in the OP to any form of sex abuse is going to raise a lot of eyebrows anywhere you go.
You don't think a teacher grinding on a kid and putting her head between his legs is molestation? That attitude raises a lot of eyebrows itself in the real world, among most parents, if not here.
Relapse wrote: You don't think a teacher grinding on a kid and putting her head between his legs is molestation?
Dude. The Teacher in the OP is going to lose her job, and never work as a teacher again because her behavior was inappropriate and wrong. But comparing it to this, is nonsensical.
The Teacher in the OP probably won't even go anywhere near a jail because, surprise, legally her actions don't amount to any charges of abuse. At most its indecency with a minor and even then, that's a really low level of it. That kid isn't scarred for life. He's not going to suffer any trauma, and in a year it's not even going to a blip on his radar except as a funny story he tells his friends.
Relapse wrote: You don't think a teacher grinding on a kid and putting her head between his legs is molestation?
Dude. The Teacher in the OP is going to lose her job, and never work as a teacher again because her behavior was inappropriate and wrong. But comparing it to this, is nonsensical.
The Teacher in the OP probably won't even go anywhere near a jail because, surprise, legally her actions don't amount to any charges of abuse. At most its indecency with a minor and even then, that's a really low level of it. That kid isn't scarred for life. He's not going to suffer any trauma, and in a year it's not even going to a blip on his radar.
So you know the kid personally then and can make that statement without hesitation?
I am speaking as a parent and based the damage I have seen this do to families.
So your concern yourself with the family, and not the child?
I concern myself with everyone involved. I thought that was pretty obvious. Don't even try to twist my words on this one, Dogma, I had a daughter that a molestor tried to get at, and would have if my wife hadn't been on hand to stop him, so don't pretend I have no care about the child.
Wow this is pretty disgusting, the fact that you are actively marginalizing victims of sexual abuse without an ounce of sarcasm is a new low on Dakka.
I am speaking as a parent and based the damage I have seen this do to families.
So your concern yourself with the family, and not the child?
I concern myself with everyone involved. I thought that was pretty obvious. Don't even try to twist my words on this one, Dogma, I had a daughter that a molestor tried to get at, and would have if my wife hadn't been on hand to stop him, so don't pretend I have no care about the child.
Wow this is pretty disgusting, the fact that you are actively marginalizing victims of sexual abuse without an ounce of sarcasm is a new low on Dakka.
You are making a fairly ignorant statement if you think I am marginalizing the attempted molestation of my daughter. I get very protective of kids in these situations. You might not give a damn, but I do.
I am speaking as a parent and based the damage I have seen this do to families.
So your concern yourself with the family, and not the child?
I concern myself with everyone involved. I thought that was pretty obvious. Don't even try to twist my words on this one, Dogma, I had a daughter that a molestor tried to get at, and would have if my wife hadn't been on hand to stop him, so don't pretend I have no care about the child.
Wow this is pretty disgusting, the fact that you are actively marginalizing victims of sexual abuse without an ounce of sarcasm is a new low on Dakka.
You are making a fairly ignorant statement if you think I am marginalizing the attempted molestation of my daughter. I get very protective of kids in these situations. You might not give a damn, but I do.
Hey, I'm not the one who compared child molestation to the more trivial act of a public lap, dance that was your own doing.
LordofHats wrote: Good point. Child molestation actually results in more psychological damage in most cases than the rape of an adult. Both are still a completely separate world from getting an inappropriate lap dance from your teacher.
I dunno. I bet somebody could make an unlawful contact case. That's straight onto the sex offender registry.
I dunno. I bet somebody could make an unlawful contact case. That's straight onto the sex offender registry.
Oh she's definitely on the sex offender registry.
Still want to know what was going through her head. The first rule of being a teacher is that just because you're kids tell you to do something, doesn't mean you should XD
I am speaking as a parent and based the damage I have seen this do to families.
So your concern yourself with the family, and not the child?
I concern myself with everyone involved. I thought that was pretty obvious. Don't even try to twist my words on this one, Dogma, I had a daughter that a molestor tried to get at, and would have if my wife hadn't been on hand to stop him, so don't pretend I have no care about the child.
Wow this is pretty disgusting, the fact that you are actively marginalizing victims of sexual abuse without an ounce of sarcasm is a new low on Dakka.
You are making a fairly ignorant statement if you think I am marginalizing the attempted molestation of my daughter.
Hey, I'm not the one who compared child molestation to something as trivial as a public lap dance...
Wow, just wow.
Just read some of what I wrote earlier, because I don't feel like repeating myself to someone who has an attitude so far removed from mine on this subject that he doesn't think what this teacher did is a form of molestation.
Just read some of what I wrote earlier, because I don't feel like repeating myself to someone who has an attitude so far removed from mine on this subject that he doesn't think what this teacher did is a form of molestation.
Makes wild comparison, gets called out on it. Declares everyone who disagrees with wild comparison as supporting child molestation. A new low indeed.
Hey you don't have kids Dogma. You aren't allowed to talk about them. Look away or we'll have to call the cops. You're clearly eye banging little Bobby.
I just talked to some friends I have in Houston, they are very angry at how the government has handled the case. They said that the teachers have been maintaining students labs for generations and that there is no reason why federal rules have to force the school to fire the teacher.
LordofHats wrote: That kid isn't scarred for life. He's not going to suffer any trauma, and in a year it's not even going to a blip on his radar except as a funny story he tells his friends.
How do you know ?
dogma wrote: How many male, high school age students do you think would respond negatively to sexual stimulation?
It is is pretty obvious that you are simply very uncomfortable with sex.
I am pretty sure that the second part of your message answer too the first part of your message : too many for assuming the students will just find this “a funny story to tell their friends”.
As to the trauma; The event does not amount to trauma. It's not even close. Acting like it is disservices victims of trauma by watering down their experiences. This is the stubbed toe of sexual no-nos. Equating it to abuse is fallacious.
As to the joke about it bit; because I was a teenager once. He's gonna be a super star.
So you know the kid personally then and can make that statement without hesitation?
Dude, the story in the OP is the opening of a porno. That kid is gonna be bragging about that lap dance for the rest of his life.
Doesn't make it right, but then no one was assaulted, abused, or raped, and an inappropriate lap dance is not an afront to families the world over.
Totally legit; he totally has the option of bragging about this lap dance or being derided as a 'homo' or 'queer' for not enjoying it. A teacher giving their middle schooler a lap dance is totally not sexual assault or abuse; it's just funny because it happened to a guy so ... different standards and all that. Wonderful that you get to decide when a child being abused by an authority figure actually counts as abuse so the rest of us can just relax and wait for your verdict. It's also good to know that male teachers can give hilarious lap dances to 14 year old girls and it will be laughed off.
Bromsy wrote: Totally legit; he totally has the option of bragging about this lap dance or being derided as a 'homo' or 'queer' for not enjoying it. A teacher giving their middle schooler a lap dance is totally not sexual assault or abuse; it's just funny because it happened to a guy so ... different standards and all that. Wonderful that you get to decide when a child being abused by an authority figure actually counts as abuse so the rest of us can just relax and wait for your verdict. It's also good to know that male teachers can give hilarious lap dances to 14 year old girls and it will be laughed off.
You don't have to preach to me about the double standard of machoism. The rape and abuse of men, especially by women, is one of the most under reported crimes in the world because they're not allowed to call it rape or abuse without their status as men being called into question.
If you care about that, as you apparently do, I suggest realizing that an inappropriate lap dance where no one even took their clothes off is not the above. Acting like it is is building a house of cards.
Bromsy wrote: Totally legit; he totally has the option of bragging about this lap dance or being derided as a 'homo' or 'queer' for not enjoying it. A teacher giving their middle schooler a lap dance is totally not sexual assault or abuse; it's just funny because it happened to a guy so ... different standards and all that. Wonderful that you get to decide when a child being abused by an authority figure actually counts as abuse so the rest of us can just relax and wait for your verdict. It's also good to know that male teachers can give hilarious lap dances to 14 year old girls and it will be laughed off.
You don't have to preach to me about the double standard of machoism. The rape and abuse of men, especially by women, is one of the most under reported crimes in the world because they're not allowed to call it rape or abuse without their status as men being called into question.
If you care about that, as you apparently do, I suggest realizing that an inappropriate lap dance where no one even took their clothes off is not the above.
It's still abuse man. Clothes coming off isn't the line of demarcation.
It's still abuse man. Clothes coming off isn't the line of demarcation.
And yet, comparing it to predatory child molestation, still feels like bull gak.
... So what is the point where it is cool? What is the point where it is not? If grinding on middle schoolers is in the realm of acceptable, what behaviors would you put into the non acceptable vs totally fine realms?
*Sorry, I meant grinding on middle schoolers who you have some sort of responsibility over and for*
It's almost like you are pretending that the only two options are "it's totally cool for a teacher to give a fully clothed lap dance to a student " and "it's the same as a grown man systematically raping and abusing his child".
I think if a male teacher had rubbed his face in a girl's lap there would be a different reaction. This idea that it's not as bad for a boy, because it means he was lucky or gets to brag, doesn't fly. Why is there no such thing as unwanted sexual attention when you're a teenage boy? How do we know he enjoyed it? Because he went along with it under peer pressure and from the adult teacher? Even if he did slap her arse a few times, it doesn't mean he was keen for it. I know I wouldn't have enjoyed that sort of attention in school, it would have made me deeply uncomfortable. But not enjoying it would have made me gay I suppose.
Anyway, the teacher must have been insane to do this. I can't imagine anyone working in a school not agreeing, it's totally unprofessional and inappropriate. It undermines her professional authority over the class and it's an inappropriate level of contact with a student.
Howard A Treesong wrote: Why is there no such thing as unwanted sexual attention when you're a teenage boy?
For the same reason that the female never winds up with the rape conviction in the, "a drunk male and a drunk female have sex, and both regret it afterward," scenario.
... So what is the point where it is cool? What is the point where it is not? If grinding on middle schoolers is in the realm of acceptable, what behaviors would you put into the non acceptable vs totally fine realms?
I don't think anyone has argued that what she did should go unpunished, but rather that what occurred is not the equivalent of rape or any especially severe form of molestation.
Bromsy wrote: Totally legit; he totally has the option of bragging about this lap dance or being derided as a 'homo' or 'queer' for not enjoying it. A teacher giving their middle schooler a lap dance is totally not sexual assault or abuse; it's just funny because it happened to a guy so ... different standards and all that. Wonderful that you get to decide when a child being abused by an authority figure actually counts as abuse so the rest of us can just relax and wait for your verdict. It's also good to know that male teachers can give hilarious lap dances to 14 year old girls and it will be laughed off.
You don't have to preach to me about the double standard of machoism. The rape and abuse of men, especially by women, is one of the most under reported crimes in the world because they're not allowed to call it rape or abuse without their status as men being called into question.
If you care about that, as you apparently do, I suggest realizing that an inappropriate lap dance where no one even took their clothes off is not the above.
It's still abuse man. Clothes coming off isn't the line of demarcation.
No point in trying to talk to him about this. Going by the comments, he and some others here think it's totaly ok for children to be treated in this fashion by adults.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Something to wonder about is why a 15 year old is in middle school instead of high school. Was he special needs, or vulnurable in some other way?
If so, this makes the teacher's action all the more repellant.
No point in trying to talk to him about this. Going by the comments, he and some others here think it's totaly ok for children to be treated in this fashion by adults.
When did LordofHats, or anyone else, say such a thing?
No point in trying to talk to him about this. Going by the comments, he and some others here think it's totaly ok for children to be treated in this fashion by adults.
When did LordofHats, or anyone else, say such a thing?
You're kidding, right? Did you miss when he wrote this or other similar statements:
"Dude, the story in the OP is the opening of a porno. That kid is gonna be bragging about that lap dance for the rest of his life."
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Then there is your comment to me because I object to a 40+ year old woman doing this to a 15 year old that" I am simply very uncomfortable with sex." Yes I am, when a child is molested in such a fashion.
So you know the kid personally then and can make that statement without hesitation?
How many male, high school age students do you think would respond negatively to sexual stimulation?
It is is pretty obvious that you are simply very uncomfortable with sex.
Automatically Appended Next Post: After going through a year long trial process for the person who was fondling my daughter, seeing how it affected her, my wife and other children, and talking with other parents and children over the course of several encounter groups and counciling sessions and hearing their stories, I have developed very strong views on protecting children.
But of course opinions on things like this that are discussed seem to be brushed off with memes or "won't someone think of the children" attempts at humor which show little or no understanding of what people that go through this ordeal feel.
But of course opinions on things like this that are discussed seem to be brushed off with memes or "won't someone think of the children" attempts at humor which show little or any understanding of what people that go through this ordeal feel.
Probably because the people that broach the topic generally become irrational whenever their opinions are criticized.
Pro-tip: if you want someone who has no reason to care about your particular situation to take you seriously; do not argue from emotion.
But of course opinions on things like this that are discussed seem to be brushed off with memes or "won't someone think of the children" attempts at humor which show little or any understanding of what people that go through this ordeal feel.
Probably because the people that broach the topic generally become irrational whenever their opinions are criticized.
Pro-tip: if you want someone who has no reason to care about your particular situation to take you seriously; do not argue from emotion.
It's hard to take him seriously when he simultaniously makes statements like the one I quoted or this:
"The Teacher in the OP probably won't even go anywhere near a jail because, surprise, legally her actions don't amount to any charges of abuse. At most its indecency with a minor and even then, that's a really low level of it. That kid isn't scarred for life. He's not going to suffer any trauma, and in a year it's not even going to a blip on his radar except as a funny story he tells his friends."
The real pro tip is not to bother talking to someone about this who who boasts about caring for no one but himself.
Something to wonder about is why a 15 year old is in middle school instead of high school. Was he special needs, or vulnurable in some other way?
If so, this makes the teacher's action all the more repellant.
Middle school normally runs up to 14, and a 15 year old kid may not be developmentally disabled; especially if his first language is not English.
Something to wonder about is why a 15 year old is in middle school instead of high school. Was he special needs, or vulnurable in some other way?
If so, this makes the teacher's action all the more repellant.
Middle school normally runs up to 14, and a 15 year old kid may not be developmentally disabled; especially if his first language is not English.
Does Texas do LEAP/Advancement tests after each grade? If so, could be he didn't pass one one year.
Something to wonder about is why a 15 year old is in middle school instead of high school. Was he special needs, or vulnurable in some other way?
If so, this makes the teacher's action all the more repellant.
Middle school normally runs up to 14, and a 15 year old kid may not be developmentally disabled; especially if his first language is not English.
Does Texas do LEAP/Advancement tests after each grade? If so, could be he didn't pass one one year.
That's something, at least. From these comments he probably wasn't mentaly impaired.
Build false reality where any sexual act directed at a child equals full blown rape and then blast anyone who disagrees with it as supporting child molestation.
LordofHats wrote: Build false reality where any sexual act directed at a child equals full blown rape and then blast anyone who disagrees with it as supporting child molestation.
Stay classy OT
Build false sense of reality that it's not that bad to molest children because they'll get to brag about it later.
So we're now conflating fully clothed lap dances with molestation? For someone who claims to have experience with the latter, Relapse, I would have thought trivialising such a thing would be abhorrent to you.
I uh, definitely do not equate what happened here with molestation. She's going to lose her job, she's been charged with a crime, she will never teach again, and possibly will go on a sex offender list: these are all appropriate and what I would have liked to have seen whether it was a male or female teacher.
I would reserve serious prison time for actual molestation, in which case I agree with Relapse that our judicial system is wildly biased towards letting off female offenders lightly.
You know, I've read the whole thread, and I'm pretty sure nobody has flat out said "she raped him", except the people calling others out for seeing it as rape. So yeah...stay classy.
Molestation? Inappropriate? Sexual? All of the above. Molestation can still happen with clothes on. But nobody has claimed rape. But, I realize this is the off topic thread and intelligence plays second fiddle to arguing with each other.
timetowaste85 wrote: Molestation? Inappropriate? Sexual? All of the above. Molestation can still happen with clothes on.
Sure. By agreeing with that, I'm now realizing that (unlike rape) I don't exactly have a solid definition of "molestation", just a kind of fuzzy cloud of things it would be in. So at least part of the disagreement might just be that we (or at least me) haven't exactly decided on clear lines of the debate.
-Shrike- wrote: So we're now conflating fully clothed lap dances with molestation? For someone who claims to have experience with the latter, Relapse, I would have thought trivialising such a thing would be abhorrent to you.
Let's get clear on this. Does your definition of molestation only include rape?
LordofHats wrote: As to the trauma; The event does not amount to trauma. It's not even close. Acting like it is disservices victims of trauma by watering down their experiences.
Trauma is not about what you experience, it is about how it impacted on you. And yeah, some trauma are bigger than others, does not mean the smaller ones are okay.
LordofHats wrote: As to the joke about it bit; because I was a teenager once. He's gonna be a super star.
And not everyone feels and thinks like you. He may be a super star, but will he enjoy it ? Have you watched the video I posted ?
Build false sense of reality that it's not that bad to molest children because they'll get to brag about it later.
You see, your little narrative only flys if we accept that a fully clothed lap dance is somehow equal to a predator stalking kids. I can try showing how utterly ridiculous that is all the way till Sunday (next Sunday) but I get the sense you'll stay right where you are on the other side of blatantly wrong see as this is the same inane logic you used in the Bundy threads.
Trauma is about what you experience because what you experience is what impacts you.
Let's get clear on this. Does your definition of molestation only include rape?
No, but it doesn't include fully clothed lap dances in a classroom filled with students either. The later fits my definition of incompetent teacher somehow failed to grasp that she was doing something stupid.
And not everyone feels and thinks like you.
Well duh. Wouldn't be having this conversation if everyone did.
Have you watched the video I posted ?
Much like Relapse, you're making the false equivalence that a fully clothed lap dance is somewhere in the same world as full blown sex, stalking, or the collection of other abuses that define child molesters. They are not.
Build false sense of reality that it's not that bad to molest children because they'll get to brag about it later.
You see, your little narrative only flys if we accept that a fully clothed lap dance is somehow equal to a predator stalking kids. I can try showing how utterly ridiculous that is all the way till Sunday (next Sunday) but I get the sense you'll stay right where you are on the other side of blatantly wrong see as this is the same inane logic you used in the Bundy threads.
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Somebody must have accepted it since she's gotten iinto at least some trouble. But then again, we see in your view, it's nothing at all when a 42 teacher does this 15 year old.
"Once the kid sat down, the forty something teacher gave him what was perhaps his first full-contact lap dance. According to a police report, Smith did the thing where she turned around and swiveled her butt on the middle school student. She rubbed her hands all over his body. She also got down on her knees and stuck her head between the boy’s legs."
Nothing more to say to you on this since you seem to believe this was a great thing for her to do.
Relapse wrote: Somebody must have accepted it since she's getting slapped with.
... She's being charged with Inappropriate Relationship with a Student. That's not a rape charge. It's minimum sentence is 2 years and she probably won't see any prison cause she'll plead out and get probation. Unless she's seriously that dumb to walk into court and use "my kids said I should do it" as a defense, I doubt that'll last long.
But then again, we see in your view, it's nothing at all when a 42 teacher does this 15 year old.
Once again, I dispute what you say, you argue a straw man position literally no one in the thread has advocated.
So if you don't think that anything even remotely inappropriate is exactly the same level of wrongdoing as child rape then we are "soft in child abuse"?
d-usa wrote: So if you don't think that anything even remotely inappropriate is exactly the same level of wrongdoing as child rape then we are "soft in child abuse"?
That's the thing Lord keeps getting wrong. I think rape is a deeper level of evil to do to anyone, let alone a child. But he goes on about how the lap dance was a great thing and that the kid will be able to brag about it. This makes it clear he doesn't know, but is just projecting his own fantasies on the situation.
There is some serious damage though, that can come about from fondling and groping both for the child and family members, acoording to the things I learned from what happened to my daughter, listening to other parents at encounter groups, and what I learned from Child Protective Services.
My daughter was fairly traumatized by the event, even though no rape took place. I found out a week after the incident that this person had attacked another girl, but the parents were reluctant to come forward. I found out where they lived and went to their house to see if they wanted to be in on this case, because at the time it was my daughter's word against the attackers. The father didn't want to, but I persuaded him to speak off the record to the police so they could perhaps find another thread in his story and find other witnesses to interview.
Speaking with the father opened up a fair number of witnesses, including the attackers sister, who he had also molested.
At this point the police had enough to bring to the state and the trial went forward, consisting of motions and delays over the course of a year until the actual trial happened.
The other father came forward and told me that seeing what I was doing made him ashamed and he felt the need to bring his daughter forward also as a witness.
The trial was fairly emotional, as you might expect, but in the end, the attacker was sentenced. I made sure I was present at every evaluation hearing following that went over his fitness to be released. This appeared to amaze his defense attorney since most parents, in my area anyway, at this point have nothing further to do with such cases.
I am very protective of my children and perhaps there is a large degree of emotion that plays into my opinion, but they will know I never turned my back on them or failed to be there for them.
You may have read some comments in other threads in which I refer to my cousin who was a social worker handling children's cases for thirty years. I can quite easily see how it affected his health.
d-usa wrote: So if you don't think that anything even remotely inappropriate is exactly the same level of wrongdoing as child rape then we are "soft in child abuse"?
That's the thing Lord keeps getting wrong. I think rape is a deeper level of evil to do to anyone, let alone a child. But he goes on about how the lap dance was a great thing and that the kid will be able to brag about it. This makes it clear he doesn't know, but is just projecting his own fantasies on the situation.
Except he's not. I've been reading his posts and by and large it's simply what always gets brought up in these kinds of situations:
We know that teens and preteens are vulnerable to predators, but there does exist a double standard with perceiving males as victims. It is a cultural thing and it isn't going away anytime soon. If this case involved a male teacher doing this to a male student, there would be an outcry of "poor boy!" but since it's a (relatively) attractive female teacher it gets waved off and any thoughts of victimization are pushed firmly to the back of the mind for observers.
d-usa wrote: So if you don't think that anything even remotely inappropriate is exactly the same level of wrongdoing as child rape then we are "soft in child abuse"?
That's the thing Lord keeps getting wrong. I think rape is a deeper level of evil to do to anyone, let alone a child. But he goes on about how the lap dance was a great thing and that the kid will be able to brag about it. This makes it clear he doesn't know, but is just projecting his own fantasies on the situation.
Except he's not. You really need to read posts better before commenting.
What Kan said. LoH's posts don't say what you think they say, Relapse.
d-usa wrote: So if you don't think that anything even remotely inappropriate is exactly the same level of wrongdoing as child rape then we are "soft in child abuse"?
That's the thing Lord keeps getting wrong. I think rape is a deeper level of evil to do to anyone, let alone a child. But he goes on about how the lap dance was a great thing and that the kid will be able to brag about it. This makes it clear he doesn't know, but is just projecting his own fantasies on the situation.
Except he's not. You really need to read posts better before commenting.
I think you should be the one to read posts instead. Once again, a direct quote:
"Dude, the story in the OP is the opening of a porno. That kid is gonna be bragging about that lap dance for the rest of his life."
I guess if he's making his judgements by the porn he watches, that explains a lot.
But you appear to act that like this situation is exactly the same amount of bad as yours, and if we don't agree with the severity then we must be laughing it off.
The kid will probably brag and get/give high fives all around, that will be his experience from this. Acknowledging that doesn't make the teachers actions any better. She faces consequences.
Her actions, and her consequences, will not be at the same level as the guy that violated your daughter and they shouldn't be considered the same. There is a world of difference there. They both have their own level of severity. Both kids will have different experiences to take away from that.
Nobody is saying that she is a great person for doing what she did. It doesn't matter if the boy is scarred for life or if this will be one of his best memories. That doesn't have any impact on her actions. What she did was wrong, which nobody is arguing against, and she is getting the punishment she deserves.
What we have here is two people looking at the same glass and doing the classic "half full/half empty" routine.
You think this kid was horribly violated, and it appears that because we don't agree with that you think that we must also not agree that your daughter was horribly violated.
We don't think that her actions equals horrible child abuse, and when you insist that what he went through is the exact same thing that your daughter went through it appears to some that you are trivializing what happened to her when you insist that a fully clothed lab dance is the exact same level of bad as what happened to her.
Nobody is saying that what she did was okay, they are just not aggreing with you that her actions and the reaction from the boy are at the same level as what happened to your daughter.
d-usa wrote: So if you don't think that anything even remotely inappropriate is exactly the same level of wrongdoing as child rape then we are "soft in child abuse"?
That's the thing Lord keeps getting wrong. I think rape is a deeper level of evil to do to anyone, let alone a child. But he goes on about how the lap dance was a great thing and that the kid will be able to brag about it. This makes it clear he doesn't know, but is just projecting his own fantasies on the situation.
Except he's not. You really need to read posts better before commenting.
I think you should be the one to read posts instead. Once again, a direct quote:
"Dude, the story in the OP is the opening of a porno. That kid is gonna be bragging about that lap dance for the rest of his life."
d-usa wrote: So if you don't think that anything even remotely inappropriate is exactly the same level of wrongdoing as child rape then we are "soft in child abuse"?
That's the thing Lord keeps getting wrong. I think rape is a deeper level of evil to do to anyone, let alone a child. But he goes on about how the lap dance was a great thing and that the kid will be able to brag about it. This makes it clear he doesn't know, but is just projecting his own fantasies on the situation.
Except he's not. You really need to read posts better before commenting.
I think you should be the one to read posts instead. Once again, a direct quote:
"Dude, the story in the OP is the opening of a porno. That kid is gonna be bragging about that lap dance for the rest of his life."
How is that "projecting his own fantasies on the situation"?
He's absolutely right though. This is something where the boy isn't really a "victim" in the traditional sense, nor is the case really worth you getting so worked up over.
I keep coming back to the part in the article where the boy admits he slapped her butt several times during the event. In my mind, that rules out the idea of this being a terribly traumatizing experience. I realize Stockholm syndrome and systematic abuse can invoke unwilling or coerced participation, but as far as I know that can't occur in the course of a 3 minute song in public place.
It is an abuse of power by the teacher, and she should never teach again.
That particular teacher? Eh, not feeling any attraction to her. The chem teacher who got caught sleeping with students? Oh, hell yes I'd brag!! But not everybody would handle that situation the same. It all depends on the person.
Good lord, you can tell it's a messed up thread when I'm a voice of reason in it.
You have expressed in the past if bad things that happen to others don't affect you personally, you don't care.
I don't. However that does not mean I only care about myself. For example, if something were to happen to my mother that would affect my on a personal level, implying that I do care about some others; but only others I have a personal relationship with.
timetowaste85 wrote: That particular teacher? Eh, not feeling any attraction to her. The chem teacher who got caught sleeping with students? Oh, hell yes I'd brag!! But not everybody would handle that situation the same. It all depends on the person.
Good lord, you can tell it's a messed up thread when I'm a voice of reason in it.
There are many things I could call your comment, but "voice of reason" is not one of them.
LordofHats wrote: Much like Relapse, you're making the false equivalence that a fully clothed lap dance is somewhere in the same world as full blown sex, stalking, or the collection of other abuses that define child molesters. They are not.
I am not. However, I am pretty sure if that had happened to me back then, I am pretty sure it would not have been something I would have enjoyed, and therefore the ensuing “popularity” would have also been very unsettling and disturbing actually. And would probably have backfired if I showed I did not enjoy it. But that is quite well mentioned in the video I put before. Though I have to admit I certainly would not have slapped her butt.
My point is not that she should be charged in the same way as if she had raped the boy, my point is that you cannot assume the boy will enjoy the following popularity. It is really just about whether or not you can assume he will enjoy or be distressed by it.
You have expressed in the past if bad things that happen to others don't affect you personally, you don't care.
I don't. However that does not mean I only care about myself. For example, if something were to happen to my mother that would affect my on a personal level, implying that I do care about some others; but only others I have a personal relationship with.
This right here is exactly his point-you realize that, right? Something happening to your mother, it affects you personally. Just because it's not something that happened to you directly doesn't mean it's not personal. You've proven his point entirely. You've admitted if it's not part of your life directly, you don't care. Your mother is a direct part of your life.
And yes, compared to some of the slinging going on in this thread, my voice is far more reasonable than most. But...carry on anyway. I said I'd brag about the one teacher, but not everyone handles things the same-some people would have issue with it. I'd say that's a fairly reasonable response. "Reasonable" doesn't mean "emotionless". Of course I'd show emotion if it was something I was excited about. That's human nature. But just because I'd have been excited about it doesn't mean Joe Nextdoor would be. I swear, you've got to be trolling us all at this point.
My point is not that she should be charged in the same way as if she had raped the boy
She gave him a lap dance. She didn't have sex with him, or rape him. No nudity was involved. Sending her to jail for 20 years for a stupid decision is completely over the top. Losing her job and being put on the sex offender registry are sufficient punishments for an incident that thus far seems highly unlikely to repeat itself.
Though I have to admit I certainly would not have slapped her butt.
Stepping away from our dispute for a moment, in and of itself, seeming cooperation is not a sign that someone actually was cooperating. It's not uncommon for rapists and predators to coerce their victims into performing acts they would not of their own accord. They then use those acts to convince the victim that they wanted it all along and in court will argue that it is a sign that no rape or abuse occurred. EDIT: The most common one is saying that if someone had an orgasm they enjoyed it and it's not rape. That's not true. Orgasm is a biological mechanism. You can't always stop it just because you don't want it.
Rape and sexual abuse isn't about sex. Sex is just a byproduct. It's about control and it's about power. That's what rapists and predators really get off on. Having completely control over another person who doesn't want to be controlled.
LordofHats wrote: She gave him a lap dance. She didn't have sex with him, or rape him. No nudity was involved. Sending her to jail for 20 years for a stupid decision is completely over the top. Losing her job and being put on the sex offender registry are sufficient punishments for an incident that thus far seems highly unlikely to repeat itself.
Yeah, you are basically agreeing with what I just said.
Back to my point, are you still so sure the guy enjoyed it and/or will enjoy the “popularity” it earned him ?
My point is not that she should be charged in the same way as if she had raped the boy
She gave him a lap dance. She didn't have sex with him, or rape him. No nudity was involved. Sending her to jail for 20 years for a stupid decision is completely over the top. Losing her job and being put on the sex offender registry are sufficient punishments for an incident that thus far seems highly unlikely to repeat itself.
Though I have to admit I certainly would not have slapped her butt.
Stepping away from our dispute for a moment, in and of itself, seeming cooperation is not a sign that someone actually was cooperating. It's not uncommon for rapists and predators to coerce their victims into performing acts they would not of their own accord. They then use those acts to convince the victim that they wanted it all along and in court will argue that it is a sign that no rape or abuse occurred.
Rape and sexual abuse isn't about sex. Sex is just a byproduct. It's about control and it's about power. That's what rapists and predators really get off on. Having completely control over another person who doesn't want to be controlled.
Fairly profound statement there. There was a woman I was pretty involved with for a number of years who told me about being gang raped as a 16 year old by her sky diving instructor and a couple of his buddies. She couldn't really bring herself to speak about it in detail, and I never pressed her about it, but she would bring it up in bits and pieces during the course of our relationship. A lot of what she told me meshes well with your comments about power. She said he told her once they were done with her that she'd forget about it within a year. Pretty sick and anger inducing stuff.
She never forgot about it but was eventually able to move on with her life and became a doctor specializing in contageous diseases.
mmm no, Id be grossed out if that old lady started grinding up on me.
and while this particular situation isnt the worst possible case, it does still highlight the double standard our culture has regarding male victims of inappropriate sexual acts (be they as insevere as this one, or more severe)
Fairly profound statement there. There was a woman I was pretty involved with for a number of years who told me about being gang raped as a 16 year old by her sky diving instructor and a couple of his buddies. She couldn't really bring herself to speak about it in detail, and I never pressed her about it, but she would bring it up in bits and pieces during the course of our relationship. A lot of what she told me meshes well with your comments about power. She said he told her once they were done with her that she'd forget about it within a year. Pretty sick and anger inducing stuff.
She never forgot about it but was eventually able to move on with her life and became a doctor specializing in contageous diseases.
Yep, and even if a bunch of people surround someone and coerce a 'yes' from them, it's still rape. This is a frequent form that sex assault takes in the US Military. Not gang rape per se, but its hard to hide sex assault in a unit. Coercing the victim in some way to have sex is still rape. In some jurisdictions I think it is a lesser degree of rape (some have degrees of rape like degrees of murder).
Unfortunately our double standard across the board is that it becomes hard to convict a rapist of their crimes if they can walk into court and say that the other person cooperated. Sick thing (it basically victimizes the victim all over again).
Fairly profound statement there. There was a woman I was pretty involved with for a number of years who told me about being gang raped as a 16 year old by her sky diving instructor and a couple of his buddies. She couldn't really bring herself to speak about it in detail, and I never pressed her about it, but she would bring it up in bits and pieces during the course of our relationship. A lot of what she told me meshes well with your comments about power. She said he told her once they were done with her that she'd forget about it within a year. Pretty sick and anger inducing stuff.
She never forgot about it but was eventually able to move on with her life and became a doctor specializing in contageous diseases.
Yep, and even if a bunch of people surround someone and coerce a 'yes' from them, it's still rape. This is a frequent form that sex assault takes in the US Military. Not gang rape per se, but its hard to hide sex assault in a unit. Coercing the victim in some way to have sex is still rape. In some jurisdictions I think it is a lesser degree of rape (some have degrees of rape like degrees of murder).
Unfortunately our double standard across the board is that it becomes hard to convict a rapist of their crimes if they can walk into court and say that the other person cooperated. Sick thing (it basically victimizes the victim all over again).
She went after the guy a couple days later with a rifle, but was stopped from shooting him. He was married with kids, and that went by the boards for him when it came out what he had done.
Maybe we are all looking at it wrong. School funding issues and closures have been a huge issue recently in H-town.
Maybe the teacher just figured out an alternative revenue stream to help fund the pubic schools.
Seriously, if feel you it would be a form of molestation if the teacher was a 42 yo male and/or the student was female...then you have to apply the same for this case.
Its not a matter of "he wanted it". That excuse doesn't apply with girl victims so it should not/can not apply here.
The point being that under current laws a 15 y.o. kid can not legally give consent. No legal consent means "no consent" at which point it becomes an assault.
Also, some here need to understand that while rape is a form of sexual offense, not all sex offenses are rape. Some are abuse and/or molestation.
Finally, in recent years the definitions for sexual offense like rape and molestation have been expanded to include otherwise consentual acts but are considered a crime due to one individual having authority over another.
This means that a student or employee can be of legal age and give consent, then the later claim rape or molestation.
Whether you agree with this or not, it is how rape and sexual molestation are currently being defined in the U.S.
You were saying we should charge her like she raped him, so it sounded like you were either equaling her actions to rape or that rape was broad enough to include lap dances XD
LordofHats wrote: You were saying we should charge her like she raped him, so it sounded like you were either equaling her actions to rape or that rape was broad enough to include lap dances XD
No. I was saying we should not charge her like she raped him. It is basically the contrary. You know, the exact opposite.
See :
“My point is not that she should be charged in the same way as if she had raped the boy”
Maybe my sentence was not very clear, but I explicitly told you that you likely had missed a negation, and you did not care.
So now, please re-read my post while keeping that in mind.
This right here is exactly his point-you realize that, right? Something happening to your mother, it affects you personally. Just because it's not something that happened to you directly doesn't mean it's not personal. You've proven his point entirely.
His initial point was that I don't care about anyone but myself. If I care about my mother then I clearly care about people other than myself, as I am not my mother.
Stay classy 
