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The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 15:54:40


Post by: Commoragh's Fist


Hey guys, I know there are plenty of talk regarding the 7th ed rumors, I just wanted to make a point that has stuck out to me. In my humble opinion the BRB isn't a bad entertainment value due to the fact that it only lasted two years. Given that the BRB was roughly the cost of a video game, I'd argue we've gotten more hours of enjoyment out of it than most people would in a video game, and in my opinion 75$ for two years of entertainment isn't a bad thing... I'm really not sure why so many are up in arms about this. Nobody is being forced to purchase this, much like no one is forced into any hobby. I know the rules are pretty much a mandatory purchase for people that want to play with the updated and most current rule set, but 75$ over two years really isn't terrible. It's certainly cheaper than many things, i.e. going to the movies over the course of two years, etc. etc.

I'm not advocating GW at all, and I know the community is upset about a lot of things regarding GW, but the price point over two years hardly seems like good argument to me. Thoughts?


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 16:01:29


Post by: Ailaros


You're noticing how good of a value 40k is because you're adding the cost OVER TIME to your calculations!?







Seriously, though, I played about 60+ games of 40k since 6th ed dropped. That makes the rules outgo something like $1.25 per game. And that doesn't include the time spent reading it or analyzing it, nor does it count any time in the future I'll spend re-reading the fluff or looking at the pretty pictures again.




The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 16:03:06


Post by: Portugal Jones


It will be hard to say until we actually know what's in it. If it's a combination of the current rules, FAQs, and the additional releases like Escalation, so people who already have them can keep using them without issue, then it's not really any issue.

If it's a new rule edition, the value of the cost is very simple to break down. If we were playing any other tabletop model game, how often and how much do we need to buy rules for them? I know I've been having a perfectly good time playing BFG for like, a decade, without needing to shell out for a new core rulebook.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 16:03:19


Post by: Brother Michael


Let's wait if the 7th edition book actually replaces 6th ed or is nothing more than a compilation of the BRB, SA and Esc in one...
I agree that the price isn't necessarily terribly if you used it for two full years, but let's not forget that you also need codices, models and more to actually play the game. Also, what about those who bought the BRB like a month ago? They'll probably feel screwed over.

Then again I didn't buy it so I don't exactly have something to complain about


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 16:16:21


Post by: Yodhrin


 Ailaros wrote:
You're noticing how good of a value 40k is because you're adding the cost OVER TIME to your calculations!?

-imagesnip-

Seriously, though, I played about 60+ games of 40k since 6th ed dropped. That makes the rules outgo something like $1.25 per game. And that doesn't include the time spent reading it or analyzing it, nor does it count any time in the future I'll spend re-reading the fluff or looking at the pretty pictures again.



How lovely for you. Meanwhile those of us who have to carefully plan our purchases to afford this hobby are now faced with the choice of either suspending all our active projects for a couple of months or more, or being stuck with outdated rules for however long it takes to put together the extra cash.

Sorry, there's no white knighting this one away; other companies are giving their rules away for free, GW are either using an edition change to push through fixes to 6th which should be provided gratis via FAQs, or to prop up their flagging sales before the end of year financials by putting out a product you literally can't do without if you want to keep playing. Neither is acceptable or justifiable, and "cost over time" is a particularly poor attempt at the latter; you might have gotten what you consider satisfactory value from this edition, someone else might have been deployed with the military, working on an oil rig, or just living somewhere with a low player count and only managed to get in a couple of games, so by your rationale each of those games cost £22.50 each and GW provide terrible value for money.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 16:24:05


Post by: Ailaros


Yodhrin wrote:Meanwhile those of us who have to carefully plan our purchases to afford this hobby are now faced with the choice of either suspending all our active projects for a couple of months or more, or being stuck with outdated rules for however long it takes to put together the extra cash.

You can always choose to keep playing 6th, you can always choose to buy the cheap rulebook that comes from the starter kit, and you can always choose to visit a certain website based in Sweden and get the rules for free.

I don't know what massive projects are going to be offset by a rule book purchase/download.

Yodhrin wrote:Sorry, there's no white knighting this one away

Easy.

I've gotten about 200 hours of entertainment at least in some part related to the cost of the rulebook. I'd like to see how many hours of entertainment I can get out of a $75 bottle of scotch.

Other game companies give away free rules, or price them very cheaply? Certainly, and I can go buy a bottle of vodka for $6. Does that invalidate anyone's enjoyment of $75-per-bottle scotch?




The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 16:36:37


Post by: Sigvatr


Buy a copy of the book with a few friends. Everyone pays a bit and you all got a book. I really don't see the problem.

And yeah, while the codices are ridiculously overpriced, they are valid for years to come.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 16:57:42


Post by: TheSilo


Rules wise, the BRB is good. The problem is mostly with codices that invalidate the core rules (ignore cover, skilled riders, re-roll everything).

Cost wise, I have no problem with paying for the books (except for the poor formatting on the eBook/iBook versions). I object to the model pricing because they've moved to low cost plastics while tripling their prices, even on very old model designs. For the longest time the plastics were the cheap alternative to pewter. But now they're charging $35 for five plastic models, which would've gotten you twenty models in 3rd edition (inflation adjusted), and independent vendors still offer models at those reasonable prices. So their prices clearly aren't a function of costs.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 17:00:10


Post by: hobojebus


 Sigvatr wrote:
Buy a copy of the book with a few friends. Everyone pays a bit and you all got a book. I really don't see the problem.

And yeah, while the codices are ridiculously overpriced, they are valid for years to come.


That used to be the case but GW are now on a new kick people are not buying models so they are forcing us to buy books to use our models, so I would not be shocked if we get a new codex every two years with 90% the same rules but just different enough that you have to buy it.

They are scrambling to keep profits steady by any means instead of looking at why business is shrinking and acting to fix it.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 17:00:37


Post by: BlaxicanX


 Ailaros wrote:

I've gotten about 200 hours of entertainment at least in some part related to the cost of the rulebook. I'd like to see how many hours of entertainment I can get out of a $75 bottle of scotch.


Since we're relying on useless anecdotes for our arguments here, I've logged 524 hours on Planetside 2, which is a free-to-play video game.



The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 17:02:56


Post by: Sigvatr


hobojebus wrote:
 Sigvatr wrote:
Buy a copy of the book with a few friends. Everyone pays a bit and you all got a book. I really don't see the problem.

And yeah, while the codices are ridiculously overpriced, they are valid for years to come.


That used to be the case but GW are now on a new kick people are not buying models so they are forcing us to buy books to use our models, so I would not be shocked if we get a new codex every two years with 90% the same rules but just different enough that you have to buy it.

They are scrambling to keep profits steady by any means instead of looking at why business is shrinking and acting to fix it.


You always had to buy books to play the game. I say it again: pool the books. 40€ for a codex is ridiculously overpriced, yeah. Pool the book then. Buy it with a few friends and pay ~10€ or less for the book on your own. 10€ for a book, even if it's only valid for 2 years, would be a pretty darn good deal.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 17:14:26


Post by: hobojebus


 Sigvatr wrote:
hobojebus wrote:
 Sigvatr wrote:
Buy a copy of the book with a few friends. Everyone pays a bit and you all got a book. I really don't see the problem.

And yeah, while the codices are ridiculously overpriced, they are valid for years to come.


That used to be the case but GW are now on a new kick people are not buying models so they are forcing us to buy books to use our models, so I would not be shocked if we get a new codex every two years with 90% the same rules but just different enough that you have to buy it.

They are scrambling to keep profits steady by any means instead of looking at why business is shrinking and acting to fix it.


You always had to buy books to play the game. I say it again: pool the books. 40€ for a codex is ridiculously overpriced, yeah. Pool the book then. Buy it with a few friends and pay ~10€ or less for the book on your own. 10€ for a book, even if it's only valid for 2 years, would be a pretty darn good deal.


No it won't because as a group your still being ripped off, £30 for a book is insane you don't pay that for books of any other kind.

Same with pdfs they take very little effort to make but they way over charge.

Releasing a new edition instead of just giving us free FAQs is a blatant cash grab from a company that's becoming infamous for cash grabs.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 17:29:47


Post by: Makumba


I don't think anyone would want to group up , unless it is for something like Inqusition or Tau codex . If someone just wants to see the rules , he will download it and you can't go to a store and say that all 4 of you play with coteaz and tau cadre formation , but only one codex between you all. No shop owner would let it go , that is if he let people play with stuff they can't buy in his store.

The new BRB doesn't have to be a rip off , if it has a ton of rules changes . 6th wasn't a copy pasta of 5th . But if 7th is suppose to be 6th+escalation and stronghold everyone had to buy to use , then we end up with wasted cash.And if someone had good builds or units in stronghold&escalation , then maybe the rip off won't hurt as much . But if someone didn't that maybe more of a problem.


Am more worried about them chaging the ally system. If they nerf battle brothers , I'll end up with useless models , which isn't fun considering my new AM codex made some of my units unusable already.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 17:31:06


Post by: Mywik


hobojebus wrote:

No it won't because as a group your still being ripped off, £30 for a book is insane you don't pay that for books of any other kind.


Erm couldnt let that be uncommented. There were a lot of books especially in the university that i had to pay A LOT more than £30 for.

Your point still stands the 40k books are indeed very expensive. To a point where at least i personally wouldnt collect all of them. I know people that do though and they are happy each time a new 40k book gets released. But to be fair all of them have more than only "above average" disposable income.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 17:38:07


Post by: Yodhrin


 Ailaros wrote:
Yodhrin wrote:Meanwhile those of us who have to carefully plan our purchases to afford this hobby are now faced with the choice of either suspending all our active projects for a couple of months or more, or being stuck with outdated rules for however long it takes to put together the extra cash.

You can always choose to keep playing 6th, you can always choose to buy the cheap rulebook that comes from the starter kit, and you can always choose to visit a certain website based in Sweden and get the rules for free.

I don't know what massive projects are going to be offset by a rule book purchase/download.

Yodhrin wrote:Sorry, there's no white knighting this one away

Easy.

I've gotten about 200 hours of entertainment at least in some part related to the cost of the rulebook. I'd like to see how many hours of entertainment I can get out of a $75 bottle of scotch.

Other game companies give away free rules, or price them very cheaply? Certainly, and I can go buy a bottle of vodka for $6. Does that invalidate anyone's enjoyment of $75-per-bottle scotch?



I already explained why your argument is bunk in the post you selectively quoted from, so how about you do me the basic courtesy of actually addressing that counterpoint rather than just making the same assertion over again? Why is your experience more applicable than the experience of someone who played few games and so got terrible value? Or take it the other way, hypothetically; imagine GW begin putting out editions at whatever pace you would consider excessive and unjustifiable, then imagine someone with more money and free time than you dismissing your experience as irrelevant because they can afford the increased pace and they play a game every day and so still "only" pay your $1.25 a game. Now do you grasp why "feth you Jack, I got my rulebook" is a daft measuring stick?

As for the rest; my options for gaming are the local club, who will move to the new edition as they always have in the past even when people were moaning about how awful it was, or the local GW store, who are hardly likely to fine with playing an old edition on their tables. If the rumours this discussion is based on are correct, there won't be a mini-rulebook in the starter box, just a pamphlet with scenario-specific stats and rules for the models in the box, so we're back to full-price hardback or nuffin'. Neither of my options for gaming are going to be happy with people using "questionably sourced" copies of the rules. My projects might not be "massive", but they're what I can afford, and GW springing a new edition on us in the middle of their usual cycle means I get to have half a hobby for a few months, paint or play, either or. You of course are perfectly free to give zero feths about my circumstances, or indeed anyone else's, but the fact that your circumstances mean GW's unnecessary behaviour won't affect your enjoyment is not sufficient to make GW's behaviour objectively acceptable and everyone else's experience invalid.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 17:41:16


Post by: God In Action


You're not the only one who feels this way! As a whole, it's how I justify the absolute cost of 40k as a hobby. Relative to other forms of entertainment and the number of hours of enjoyment, it's one of the cheapest things I could do. Just think about the cost of going to a theme park.

Hours/£, GW is cheap relative to Alton Towers and most single player video games. Of course that doesn't mean there are even cheaper forms of entertainment, I strongly recommend people go and buy the equivalent cost of a new codex in second hand books, rather than start a new army, you'll educate yourself and get a better price per hour of entertainment.

(EDIT: oops, accidentally exalted my own post, is there a way to undo that? TBH I've no idea what exalting even does...)


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 18:17:12


Post by: Sigvatr


Makumba wrote:
I don't think anyone would want to group up , unless it is for something like Inqusition or Tau codex . If someone just wants to see the rules , he will download it and you can't go to a store and say that all 4 of you play with coteaz and tau cadre formation , but only one codex between you all. No shop owner would let it go , that is if he let people play with stuff they can't buy in his store.


That's why you play in a club, not at a store


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 18:22:10


Post by: Commoragh's Fist


 Sigvatr wrote:
Makumba wrote:
I don't think anyone would want to group up , unless it is for something like Inqusition or Tau codex . If someone just wants to see the rules , he will download it and you can't go to a store and say that all 4 of you play with coteaz and tau cadre formation , but only one codex between you all. No shop owner would let it go , that is if he let people play with stuff they can't buy in his store.


That's why you play in a club, not at a store


Sometimes clubs are in stores...


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 18:36:24


Post by: Ailaros


Yodhrin wrote:I already explained why your argument is bunk in the post you selectively quoted from, so how about you do me the basic courtesy of actually addressing that counterpoint rather than just making the same assertion over again?

I didn't address it because it does nothing of the sort.

Your claim is that you haven't gotten your money's worth, and thus 40k is a bad value. You're the one extrapolating from personal experience and claiming it's objective reality. Meanwhile, however much value one gets, it is certainly possible to get a lot more value out of 40k than a lot of other things, something which you don't seem to understand, so you're throwing away a reasonable argument by incorrectly calling it a mere assertion.

If it looks like I was dismissing your comment, it's because I was. Because your comment boils down to nothing more than "it's expensive for me, thus it can't be a good value to you".

 BlaxicanX wrote:
 Ailaros wrote:

I've gotten about 200 hours of entertainment at least in some part related to the cost of the rulebook. I'd like to see how many hours of entertainment I can get out of a $75 bottle of scotch.
Since we're relying on useless anecdotes for our arguments here, I've logged 524 hours on Planetside 2, which is a free-to-play video game.

Sure, and you won't believe how many times I've gotten to have sex with my wife, and she hasn't charged me a dime.

Does that make 40k a bad value?



The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 18:39:35


Post by: ausYenLoWang


 Ailaros wrote:
Yodhrin wrote:I already explained why your argument is bunk in the post you selectively quoted from, so how about you do me the basic courtesy of actually addressing that counterpoint rather than just making the same assertion over again?

I didn't address it because it does nothing of the sort.

Your claim is that you haven't gotten your money's worth, and thus 40k is a bad value. You're the one extrapolating from personal experience and claiming it's objective reality. Meanwhile, however much value one gets, it is certainly possible to get a lot more value out of 40k than a lot of other things, something which you don't seem to understand, so you're throwing away a reasonable argument by incorrectly calling it a mere assertion.

If it looks like I was dismissing your comment, it's because I was. Because your comment boils down to nothing more than "it's expensive for me, thus it can't be a good value to you".

 BlaxicanX wrote:
 Ailaros wrote:

I've gotten about 200 hours of entertainment at least in some part related to the cost of the rulebook. I'd like to see how many hours of entertainment I can get out of a $75 bottle of scotch.
Since we're relying on useless anecdotes for our arguments here, I've logged 524 hours on Planetside 2, which is a free-to-play video game.

Sure, and you won't believe how many times I've gotten to have sex with my wife, and she hasn't charged me a dime.

Does that make 40k a bad value?



HAHAHAHHA not in a way that she would give you a reciept for


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 19:04:42


Post by: daedalus


 Ailaros wrote:

I didn't address it because it does nothing of the sort.

Your claim is that you haven't gotten your money's worth, and thus 40k is a bad value. You're the one extrapolating from personal experience and claiming it's objective reality. Meanwhile, however much value one gets, it is certainly possible to get a lot more value out of 40k than a lot of other things, something which you don't seem to understand, so you're throwing away a reasonable argument by incorrectly calling it a mere assertion.

If it looks like I was dismissing your comment, it's because I was. Because your comment boils down to nothing more than "it's expensive for me, thus it can't be a good value to you".


Actually, yeah, when you put it in terms of time over money, 40k's probably been the best value for entertainment I've gotten out of just about anything I do.

Date night: $100 or so, 6-8 hours
Movie at movie theatre: $16 or so, 2 hours
AAA VIdeo Game: $60, 6-10 hours
Terraria: $10, 50+ hours
EVE Online: $76, 300 hours (according to steam, but that's exaggerated)
Bottle of Scotch: $60-100, 4 hours (would be six, but i'm deducting for the hangover)
Night at a bar: $80, and hours unknown because I wake up at home wondering what happened.
40k Rhino, $40, 3 hours when I paint it, and 4 hours every time I use it.

40k wins hands down.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 19:13:18


Post by: We


Don't forget to add in the cost of new 7th edition codex for your army, plus any supplements that you bought that are now out of date. Plus any data slates. Heaven forbid you bought any of the special editions, which is exactly why I don't - once the new edition comes out they are worthless.

Plus I don't play much, maybe 1 game a month if I am lucky. So I am just getting a good grasp of the rules and they are going to change them on me in less than 2 years. That's crap.



The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 19:13:56


Post by: NamelessBard


I have to agree with Ailaros on this one.

Yes, it sucks having to spend money but that's the nature of this specific hobby.

I don't get why people don't lose their mind when video game companies release sequels as this is no different*.


* - I am assuming that this is different enough to justify being called a new version, then again, I know tons people who spend $60 a year on the newest version of Madden or NHL games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We wrote:
Don't forget to add in the cost of new 7th edition codex for your army, plus any supplements that you bought that are now out of date. Plus any data slates. Heaven forbid you bought any of the special editions, which is exactly why I don't - once the new edition comes out they are worthless.

Plus I don't play much, maybe 1 game a month if I am lucky. So I am just getting a good grasp of the rules and they are going to change them on me in less than 2 years. That's crap.



Special editions are collectors versions. You really can't complain about the cost of them as you made a choice to pay that extra amount.

If you want to look at it like that you can say your expansion (codex) is given a free update to the game sequel (7th ed) until which time that they make a sequel to the expansion (new codex).

Again, assuming they release FAQs again.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 19:23:26


Post by: daedalus


We wrote:
Don't forget to add in the cost of new 7th edition codex for your army, plus any supplements that you bought that are now out of date. Plus any data slates. Heaven forbid you bought any of the special editions, which is exactly why I don't - once the new edition comes out they are worthless.

Plus I don't play much, maybe 1 game a month if I am lucky. So I am just getting a good grasp of the rules and they are going to change them on me in less than 2 years. That's crap.


Yeah, but those costs occur as time is still increasing, so the entertainment/cost ratio stays consistent for an entire life-cycle of a rules set, and that's still not fair, as most of the core of your army doesn't (usually) change from edition to edition.

So to model it, assuming you don't buy anything except the rules and an occasional couple boxes to keep your stuff current when new rules come out, your cost/time chart would be ever decreasing with occasional spikes that, in theory, should always be smaller each time, effectively, even with price hikes, because time is tricky like that.

I feel like a bad person, following this line of thinking.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 19:34:53


Post by: hobojebus


 Mywik wrote:
hobojebus wrote:

No it won't because as a group your still being ripped off, £30 for a book is insane you don't pay that for books of any other kind.


Erm couldnt let that be uncommented. There were a lot of books especially in the university that i had to pay A LOT more than £30 for.

Your point still stands the 40k books are indeed very expensive. To a point where at least i personally wouldnt collect all of them. I know people that do though and they are happy each time a new 40k book gets released. But to be fair all of them have more than only "above average" disposable income.


Hyperbole (/haɪˈpɜrbəliː/ hy-pur-bə-lee;[1] Greek: ὑπερβολή hyperbolē, "exaggeration") is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally. (from Wikipedia because i'm too lazy to write it myself)

Being in uni i would of thought you'd of been familiar with hyperbole, of course there are more expensive books such as The First Book of Urizen, William Blake which sold for millions, or the Gutenberg bible.

But if you buy a hardcover of most books you'll spend £16, most will be substantially thicker than a GW book, colour printing does not add an additional £14, most of the lore and alot of the units are copy and pasted from previous editions so we cant say dev costs bumped up the price that much and anyone who plays csm like me knows they clearly didn't put that much effort into that codex.

Even the black library stuff is way over priced for what it is, GW are not giving good value for money and its offensive when people white knight and tell us we should be happy.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 19:46:36


Post by: Andilus Greatsword


The only reason I'd be annoyed with a new edition after only 2 years is that previously a much cheaper rulebook would last you ~5 years, and I bought the BRB on the assumption that 6th ed would too.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 19:47:22


Post by: NamelessBard


hobojebus wrote:
 Mywik wrote:
hobojebus wrote:

No it won't because as a group your still being ripped off, £30 for a book is insane you don't pay that for books of any other kind.


Erm couldnt let that be uncommented. There were a lot of books especially in the university that i had to pay A LOT more than £30 for.

Your point still stands the 40k books are indeed very expensive. To a point where at least i personally wouldnt collect all of them. I know people that do though and they are happy each time a new 40k book gets released. But to be fair all of them have more than only "above average" disposable income.


Hyperbole (/haɪˈpɜrbəliː/ hy-pur-bə-lee;[1] Greek: ὑπερβολή hyperbolē, "exaggeration") is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally. (from Wikipedia because i'm too lazy to write it myself)

Being in uni i would of thought you'd of been familiar with hyperbole, of course there are more expensive books such as The First Book of Urizen, William Blake which sold for millions, or the Gutenberg bible.

But if you buy a hardcover of most books you'll spend £16, most will be substantially thicker than a GW book, colour printing does not add an additional £14, most of the lore and alot of the units are copy and pasted from previous editions so we cant say dev costs bumped up the price that much and anyone who plays csm like me knows they clearly didn't put that much effort into that codex..


Wow, pretty much all of my books in university were in the $80 to $150 range. Looking at Amazon at some of those books today, they are still the same price. Not sure if they are super cheap in the UK or something, but 16 pounds is a major discount.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 19:52:35


Post by: Commoragh's Fist


I'm glad people are agreeing with my point.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 19:56:31


Post by: Mywik


hobojebus wrote:


Being in uni i would of thought you'd of been familiar with hyperbole,



native speaker
noun
a person who has spoken the language in question from earliest childhood.

Since im not one of them sometimes stuff like irony, sarcasm or hyperbole doesnt translate to me as easy as in my native language. I hope my comment didnt hurt your feelings too much


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 19:59:17


Post by: daedalus


hobojebus wrote:

Hyperbole (/haɪˈpɜrbəliː/ hy-pur-bə-lee;[1] Greek: ὑπερβολή hyperbolē, "exaggeration") is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally. (from Wikipedia because i'm too lazy to write it myself)

Being in uni i would of thought you'd of been familiar with hyperbole, of course there are more expensive books such as The First Book of Urizen, William Blake which sold for millions, or the Gutenberg bible.

But if you buy a hardcover of most books you'll spend £16, most will be substantially thicker than a GW book, colour printing does not add an additional £14, most of the lore and alot of the units are copy and pasted from previous editions so we cant say dev costs bumped up the price that much and anyone who plays csm like me knows they clearly didn't put that much effort into that codex.

Even the black library stuff is way over priced for what it is, GW are not giving good value for money and its offensive when people white knight and tell us we should be happy.


Forums convey text, not meaning. You're also being snide.

Also, have a list of books released in the last 90 days that cost more than a GW rulebook.

Hah, one of those is a 25 page paperback for more than $200.

Thicker indeed!


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 20:25:07


Post by: Slaanesh-Devotee


hobojebus wrote:

That used to be the case but GW are now on a new kick people are not buying models so they are forcing us to buy books to use our models, so I would not be shocked if we get a new codex every two years with 90% the same rules but just different enough that you have to buy it.

They are scrambling to keep profits steady by any means instead of looking at why business is shrinking and acting to fix it.


I am shocked that this has become a thing. People complaining that GW are bringing out books at a rapid pace, let alone supplements, data slates etc. for years we complained that no new rules ever appeared!


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 20:26:40


Post by: kronk


 daedalus wrote:

Bottle of Scotch: $60-100, 4 hours (would be six, but i'm deducting for the hangover)


Dude. My bottles of bourbon last me about 3 weeks. What the hell?


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 20:32:19


Post by: daedalus


 kronk wrote:
 daedalus wrote:

Bottle of Scotch: $60-100, 4 hours (would be six, but i'm deducting for the hangover)


Dude. My bottles of bourbon last me about 3 weeks. What the hell?


I... might have a problem. Working on it.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 20:59:31


Post by: dracpanzer


So. A lot of people are unhappy with the direction taken with 6ed. We have entire codexes basically banned in most gaming locales. The Battle Brothers mechanic is changing Allies from a nice option to almost an auto take. Shouldn't we be happy GW is (rumored mind you) is stepping outside the usual cycle to hopefully fix things?

The community is seemingly incapable of fixing things or even agreeing on what needs fixing. If players are going to insist on an official fix. Then I for one can't wait.

I agree that my value out of the BRB benefits from my teenage son and I sharing it. Nearly two years. Id say 200 games each in that time ( we average two a week, at least ). Hours spent reading, painting, list building. Nevermind time spent with him that I enjoy immensely and makes every penny worthwhile


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 21:20:23


Post by: BlaxicanX


 Ailaros wrote:


 BlaxicanX wrote:
 Ailaros wrote:

I've gotten about 200 hours of entertainment at least in some part related to the cost of the rulebook. I'd like to see how many hours of entertainment I can get out of a $75 bottle of scotch.
Since we're relying on useless anecdotes for our arguments here, I've logged 524 hours on Planetside 2, which is a free-to-play video game.

Sure, and you won't believe how many times I've gotten to have sex with my wife, and she hasn't charged me a dime.

Does that make 40k a bad value?



Yes it does. Assuming we're following the OP's (and yours, since you're defending it?) beyond terrible logic of "value=X hours of entertainment divided by cost". "40K has better entertainment value than Y because the $75 rulebook allowed me to play the game for X amount of hours!" is a poor argument that's based on nothing but anecdotes.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 22:49:57


Post by: Commoragh's Fist


Its not anecdotal.... i simply think 75bucks for 2 years of fun os a bargain!!!


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 23:03:44


Post by: BlaxicanX


It's 100% absolutely anecdotal, because who says everyone plays the game every day for 2 years? And how is that exclusive to 40K? I just said on the last page that I've clocked 520+ hours into Planetside 2, which is free. So you tell me, which has provided more entertainment value? 40K, which I've clocked maybe 100 or so hours into over the past two years, and which cost me 75 dollars (actually zero, I've yet to spend a single dime on GW products and never will unless they tighten up their rules), or Planetside 2, which I've put 500 hours into and cost me nothing?

Or Legend of Super Mario 64, which I bought for $30 16 years ago and have played every single day since?

All anecdotes.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 23:06:49


Post by: Savageconvoy


Just think about all the people that got the collector's edition books. Imagine how much their value, both sentimental and actual, will go up for editions that are so short they are more of a foot note than an actual edition.

What I'm worried about is the mindset it puts us in. When 6th went to expensive hard cover books everyone got a bit miffed. Then they started making collector's editions with no changes, digital copies, supplements, data slates, and so on. They started getting all the money they could out of by using the rules.

People started slowly buying into it. If you would have told people all of this when 6th first dropped, the fan base would have died I can almost garuntee it. Finding out that you're paying way more for a codex and that they are going to charge more for an additional page of rules? I know at the drop people would have been very upset.

Now look at what we have. If they do another edition or 6.5 then it's a message that instead of FAQ and errata, instead of actually trying to deliver on the product you purchase that they will instead charge you to fix it. Every single player is being targeted for this.

You see a short edition. I see the grinder turning faster.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 23:10:43


Post by: Makumba


Commoragh's Fist wrote:
Its not anecdotal.... i simply think 75bucks for 2 years of fun os a bargain!!!

What army do you play ? Because I didn't have much fun playing in 6th , specialy compering that to 5th or the cost to fun ratio of other table top games. Infinity can be played at the cost of w40k books and DLC needed to play 6th , before even models are counted.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 23:25:55


Post by: slowthar


The formula for if 7th edition will be a good value is simple: will it make the game more fun than 6th edition?

If it makes the game more fun than 6th edition, then it's probably worth the money.

If it makes the game less enjoyable than 6th edition, than it's probably a rip-off because you didn't need to buy it to have the same amount of fun.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 23:28:41


Post by: StarTrotter


What if its only a side-grade?


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/29 23:56:22


Post by: God In Action


 BlaxicanX wrote:
It's 100% absolutely anecdotal, because who says everyone plays the game every day for 2 years? And how is that exclusive to 40K? I just said on the last page that I've clocked 520+ hours into Planetside 2, which is free. So you tell me, which has provided more entertainment value? 40K, which I've clocked maybe 100 or so hours into over the past two years, and which cost me 75 dollars (actually zero, I've yet to spend a single dime on GW products and never will unless they tighten up their rules), or Planetside 2, which I've put 500 hours into and cost me nothing?

Or Legend of Super Mario 64, which I bought for $30 16 years ago and have played every single day since?

All anecdotes.


It's not entirely irrelevant because entertainment hour per pound or dollar is a valid form of comparison. Although individual's preferences confuse the matter and make the method imperfect (no one is denying that 520+ hours of a free game is better value than a couple hundred hours of GW products), most entertainment does have a roughly similar lifespan for most customers. A video game will take X number of hours for most players to finish on average, a book will take X number of hours to read on average, and perhaps even most Dakkanauts will even play at least one game of 40k or Fantasy per week, if not more, plus painting and modelling hours.

So yes, compared to many other forms of entertainment and relative to the duration of use, GW products are in fact a cost effective hobby. Mileage may vary. It's by no means the most cost effective. This doesn't invalidate any one individual's experience who unfortunately only get's to play a game every other month and of course it makes total sense to be upset that a new edition is release if you feel you didn't get enough hours of use out of the old one. BUT- when talking about the hobby as a whole you're taking the middle of the bell curve, not the extremes. Most people don't play one game every other month.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/30 00:08:57


Post by: StarTrotter


I wouldn't quite say comparative. At best, any single person's analysis is subjective. As per dakkanauts, I wouldn't say it so highly. Keep in mind there's the other wargames, tcg, video games, off topic, etc that all post here. Couple this with disenfranchised individuals that have grown bitter about 40k and have largely quit, individuals too busy to play the game, the ones that only really care for the fluff, and the ones more in it for painting and modelling and I wouldn't even say it's that high.

It also brings to question the quality of the book which, objectively, the BRB is heavily flawed, clunky, and a relatively bad ruleset in comparison to other wargames. It's all anecdotal.

Finally, one can compare it to other codices. Let us observe the previous codex. I don't know the price but does anybody here know how much the 5th edition codex was? Then divide it by the year and multiply by any natural inflation (not GW inflation) and compare it to 6th edition divided by other factors. Also remember all the DLC books and escalation that could be argued is an expansion of the book.

Another thing to observe, compare it to the price of rules for other wargames. That's probably the most important. That's when you will notice a problem. Simply put, some wargames make their rules free! And others sell it for a drastically lower price or provide more for the same cost.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/30 00:17:45


Post by: Mysterious Pants


Commoragh's Fist wrote:
Hey guys, I know there are plenty of talk regarding the 7th ed rumors, I just wanted to make a point that has stuck out to me. In my humble opinion the BRB isn't a bad entertainment value due to the fact that it only lasted two years. Given that the BRB was roughly the cost of a video game, I'd argue we've gotten more hours of enjoyment out of it than most people would in a video game, and in my opinion 75$ for two years of entertainment isn't a bad thing... I'm really not sure why so many are up in arms about this...


Core Rulebook, Flames of War: ~$40
Core Rulebook, Dungeons and Dragons: $40
Malifaux Rulebook: $20-$25
Warmachine, Mk. II Rulebook: $30
Core Rules: Magic the Gathering: $0
Core Rules: Mantic, Chronopia, Void, etc. $0

Core Rulebook, Warhammer 40,000: $75

I see a difference.

And guess which ruleset expires faster? The Warhammer 40k rulebook has only taken two years to expire. All of the other rulebooks I've listed have a lifespan of 4+ years, with a few lasting 8 or more. So the 40k rulebook costs twice as much and has lasted half as long as any comparable other miniatures game.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/30 00:18:52


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 StarTrotter wrote:
I don't know the price but does anybody here know how much the 5th edition codex was?


Around £18, I think. Dark Eldar codex is now £20 and a £2 increase since it was released for no reason seems about right for GW

The previous Tau codex cost me £12 brand new, if I remember correctly.

Just realised upon rereading your post that it seems you meant rulebook. In which case, I'm not sure.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/30 00:26:31


Post by: Rismonite


 BlaxicanX wrote:
 Ailaros wrote:


 BlaxicanX wrote:
 Ailaros wrote:

I've gotten about 200 hours of entertainment at least in some part related to the cost of the rulebook. I'd like to see how many hours of entertainment I can get out of a $75 bottle of scotch.
Since we're relying on useless anecdotes for our arguments here, I've logged 524 hours on Planetside 2, which is a free-to-play video game.

Sure, and you won't believe how many times I've gotten to have sex with my wife, and she hasn't charged me a dime.

Does that make 40k a bad value?



Yes it does. Assuming we're following the OP's (and yours, since you're defending it?) beyond terrible logic of "value=X hours of entertainment divided by cost". "40K has better entertainment value than Y because the $75 rulebook allowed me to play the game for X amount of hours!" is a poor argument that's based on nothing but anecdotes.


I believe the important points are found in questions we aren't asking here. I believe we should looking into how much more entertainment value we can get from 40k while drinking a 75$ bottle of scotch. I'm also curious about weather or not sex was better after a game were there was a bottle of 75$ scotch, as opposed to one played on just a 6$ bottle of Vodka.

That and I guess I can go google Planetside 2 to find out the rest.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/30 00:39:47


Post by: hobojebus


 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
hobojebus wrote:

That used to be the case but GW are now on a new kick people are not buying models so they are forcing us to buy books to use our models, so I would not be shocked if we get a new codex every two years with 90% the same rules but just different enough that you have to buy it.

They are scrambling to keep profits steady by any means instead of looking at why business is shrinking and acting to fix it.


I am shocked that this has become a thing. People complaining that GW are bringing out books at a rapid pace, let alone supplements, data slates etc. for years we complained that no new rules ever appeared!


It's become a thing because the rules are slap dash take no notice of balance in a game that's already really imbalanced, D weapons should not be in regular 40k flat out .

All they care about is selling the most expensive models they can regardless of how it effects the game.

Add to that they EA like adoption of DLC people have every right to feel disgruntled, it used to be you buy a codex you can play that army, now you also have to buy the codex for your allies as well as the data slate that they rush out to fix an issue in the codex instead of fixing it before sending it out to print.

It's a ducking mess and getting worse.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/30 00:46:21


Post by: StarTrotter


 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
hobojebus wrote:

That used to be the case but GW are now on a new kick people are not buying models so they are forcing us to buy books to use our models, so I would not be shocked if we get a new codex every two years with 90% the same rules but just different enough that you have to buy it.

They are scrambling to keep profits steady by any means instead of looking at why business is shrinking and acting to fix it.


I am shocked that this has become a thing. People complaining that GW are bringing out books at a rapid pace, let alone supplements, data slates etc. for years we complained that no new rules ever appeared!


Well for starters, welcome to the real world where people can't agree . I'm at a catch, I like that all the armies are being updated but I have a problem with the release rate as is. I don't think it needed to be this fast honestly. On top of that, it still doesn't solve how horridly broken the codices are or the fact that we only had a BRB that lsted 2 years long. Anyways, here's some things that make it bad. One, due to faster releases they don't bring out as many models or don't do as many significant changes. This means any hope of a real Sister book are in the gutters and now with them wanting models for everything many unit are being erased. To make matters worse, they are taking a dlc tactic with overpriced books, imbalanced habits, releasing D weapons to the game, making Tyranids only really good with dataslates, and it's very possible they removed guardsman characters to sell as dlc later on which comes off as a cheap move. On a side note, you don't really need to look past the Farsight supplement. Arguably the best yet it could have easily been represented in the normal codex with a rule on farsight and commanders not only for loyalists but also farsight's faction. Doesn't help they cost the same as a regular codex.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/30 01:40:25


Post by: Sparkadia


 Ailaros wrote:

... you can always choose to visit a certain website based in Sweden and get the rules for free.

And unless you play in a super-uppity group, this is also usually the easiest way as well as the cheapest. Hell, even if you were to print and bind it into a book, it would only cost something like $15.



The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/30 01:41:25


Post by: StarTrotter


 Sparkadia wrote:
 Ailaros wrote:

... you can always choose to visit a certain website based in Sweden and get the rules for free.

And unless you play in a super-uppity group, this is also usually the easiest way as well as the cheapest. Hell, even if you were to print and bind it into a book, it would only cost something like $15.



Well unless the only hobby shops that have space for wargames is GW and you don't have a home built battlefield


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/30 01:48:20


Post by: SHUPPET


Brother Michael wrote:
Let's wait if the 7th edition book actually replaces 6th ed or is nothing more than a compilation of the BRB, SA and Esc in one...
I agree that the price isn't necessarily terribly if you used it for two full years, but let's not forget that you also need codices, models and more to actually play the game. Also, what about those who bought the BRB like a month ago? They'll probably feel screwed over.

Then again I didn't buy it so I don't exactly have something to complain about


Fact is they will have at least a few critical changes to sell the book, otherwise we could all just continue on using what we already have


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/30 01:48:47


Post by: BlaxicanX


 Savageconvoy wrote:
Just think about all the people that got the collector's edition books. Imagine how much their value, both sentimental and actual, will go up for editions that are so short they are more of a foot note than an actual edition.

What I'm worried about is the mindset it puts us in. When 6th went to expensive hard cover books everyone got a bit miffed. Then they started making collector's editions with no changes, digital copies, supplements, data slates, and so on. They started getting all the money they could out of by using the rules.

People started slowly buying into it. If you would have told people all of this when 6th first dropped, the fan base would have died I can almost garuntee it. Finding out that you're paying way more for a codex and that they are going to charge more for an additional page of rules? I know at the drop people would have been very upset.

Now look at what we have. If they do another edition or 6.5 then it's a message that instead of FAQ and errata, instead of actually trying to deliver on the product you purchase that they will instead charge you to fix it. Every single player is being targeted for this.

You see a short edition. I see the grinder turning faster.


People are going to buy into it and GW is going to get away with it. The history is already there for us to see in the Video Game industry. Day 1 DLC that's already loaded onto the disk but can't be accessed without paying additional cash, sequels in a franchise being released annually that are virtually identical to their predecessors (Call of Duty comes to mind), the increasingly shorter playtime in all games across the board, draconian DRM that actively screws people who paid for the game, etc. Publishers have never been so openly spiteful toward their own community base, yet the game industry is (was) flourishing anyway. And the reason for that is that the average consumer is simply an apologist, spineless pleb. People get locked into routines, and they'll cognitively deny or gloss over any incidences or trends that might endanger that routine. For gamers, that would be taking a step back and realizing that they're getting shafted by Video Game publishers' schemes. So instead, they'll come up with a thousand reasons to justify these Publishers' behavior. "I don't see why people are so upset by DLC. Who doesn't want more content? People should stop being greedy and think they can get everything for free!" "The game doesn't need to be different from the last one, it's still a new game with new graphics and a new story a-and they've added some new mechanics, too. It's only 60 dollars, not a big deal." "Why does it matter how long the game is? As long as it's entertaining who cares. You spend 20 dollars for a 2 hour movie, don't you?" Ad nauseum.

With 40K, you see a similar cycle. Poorly balanced rules, over-costed "dataslates" and expansions, codices with cut content, the steadily ridiculously overpriced models. GW is fisting the playerbase like there's no tomorrow, and it'll only get worse. But while some players are able to step back and see what's going on, others will put their heads in the sand and justify the shenanigans anyway they can. "GW shouldn't have to balance the rules, it's not their fault WAAC TFG's abuse the strong units!" "Why do people hate extra content? That's all dataslates are and nobodies forcing you to buy them!" "GW products are expensive but it's an expensive hobby!" Ad nauseum.

Patterns, patterns.

God In Action wrote:

It's not entirely irrelevant because entertainment hour per pound or dollar is a valid form of comparison.


Not in this case at least, because by your own admission there is no standard figure for how many hours of entertainment someone will derive from 40K. That figure will deviate wildly from person to person depending on their job/family circumstances, income, other hobbies or preferred wargames, and anything else you can possibly think of. It's completely unreliable, anecdotal by definition (that definition being to take an isolated incident and try to display it as the rule. I.E. "I put in 500 hours with 6th edition since last year, therefore 6E is $75 for 500 hours of entertainment!")


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/30 01:49:14


Post by: Sparkadia


 StarTrotter wrote:
 Sparkadia wrote:
 Ailaros wrote:

... you can always choose to visit a certain website based in Sweden and get the rules for free.

And unless you play in a super-uppity group, this is also usually the easiest way as well as the cheapest. Hell, even if you were to print and bind it into a book, it would only cost something like $15.



Well unless the only hobby shops that have space for wargames is GW and you don't have a home built battlefield


Touche'. Not everyone can be as fortunate in their gaming circumstances. I guess, in this case, the best bet would be purchasing through a Third Party (or Your Local eBay) and trying to get a discount.

I'm with Ailaros though, I'd be alright with paying the full cost if I really had to, as I feel I've gotten my share (not to mention friends as well) of fun out of the cash.




The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/30 01:49:35


Post by: kronk


 Savageconvoy wrote:
Just think about all the people that got the collector's edition books..


No kidding!


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/30 02:06:45


Post by: StarTrotter


 Sparkadia wrote:
 StarTrotter wrote:
 Sparkadia wrote:
 Ailaros wrote:

... you can always choose to visit a certain website based in Sweden and get the rules for free.

And unless you play in a super-uppity group, this is also usually the easiest way as well as the cheapest. Hell, even if you were to print and bind it into a book, it would only cost something like $15.



Well unless the only hobby shops that have space for wargames is GW and you don't have a home built battlefield


Touche'. Not everyone can be as fortunate in their gaming circumstances. I guess, in this case, the best bet would be purchasing through a Third Party (or Your Local eBay) and trying to get a discount.

I'm with Ailaros though, I'd be alright with paying the full cost if I really had to, as I feel I've gotten my share (not to mention friends as well) of fun out of the cash.




Humerously they are about to close the last GW shop here so after that the only real choice is to build a gaming table. I'm kind of sad, the employee was very kind and made people come in. Narrative campaigns, tournaments, apoc games, kill teams, hell, he went out of his way to make cool battlefields with a combination of GW models, forgeworld models, greenstuff, and some personal customization. They had endless stacks of terrain as well. The place went from being dead under the previous employee to almost always having people in it painting or playing with many sales. But it's closing out. I only bought there because it was so close and the employee really did try without being irritating.

I think I'll hop off to being ebay oriented at last. GW has really finally pushed my final buttons and if I keep buying from them I think I'll quit the game for good. Overall, I'll only really buy a starter force or things that they provide discounts on. A new BRB so soon I might not but a starter force with cheap armies that would be interesting for me and a friend as well as a cheap codex is a-okay with me.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/30 02:30:37


Post by: SBG


I think I got in 4 games of 6th ed. 40k.

Hmm. I will probably not be getting the new rulebook - 5th was good for 4 years or so, 6th for 2... 7th will be a 1-year special!

Problem is I can't afford it, realistically. Guess I'm going to Ebay after it's been out for 6 months.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/30 02:42:59


Post by: Sparkadia


 StarTrotter wrote:
 Sparkadia wrote:
 StarTrotter wrote:
 Sparkadia wrote:
 Ailaros wrote:

... you can always choose to visit a certain website based in Sweden and get the rules for free.

And unless you play in a super-uppity group, this is also usually the easiest way as well as the cheapest. Hell, even if you were to print and bind it into a book, it would only cost something like $15.



Well unless the only hobby shops that have space for wargames is GW and you don't have a home built battlefield


Touche'. Not everyone can be as fortunate in their gaming circumstances. I guess, in this case, the best bet would be purchasing through a Third Party (or Your Local eBay) and trying to get a discount.

I'm with Ailaros though, I'd be alright with paying the full cost if I really had to, as I feel I've gotten my share (not to mention friends as well) of fun out of the cash.




Humerously they are about to close the last GW shop here so after that the only real choice is to build a gaming table. I'm kind of sad, the employee was very kind and made people come in. Narrative campaigns, tournaments, apoc games, kill teams, hell, he went out of his way to make cool battlefields with a combination of GW models, forgeworld models, greenstuff, and some personal customization. They had endless stacks of terrain as well. The place went from being dead under the previous employee to almost always having people in it painting or playing with many sales. But it's closing out. I only bought there because it was so close and the employee really did try without being irritating.

I think I'll hop off to being ebay oriented at last. GW has really finally pushed my final buttons and if I keep buying from them I think I'll quit the game for good. Overall, I'll only really buy a starter force or things that they provide discounts on. A new BRB so soon I might not but a starter force with cheap armies that would be interesting for me and a friend as well as a cheap codex is a-okay with me.


Damn mate, that is a gakky situation. I can't see how closing stores that legitimately pull new players in by either word of mouth or by virtue of being full and energetic all the time can be a good strategy. It just reeks of knee-jerk.

Plenty of places on eBay are a solid 25% off, though sometimes Shipping can be rough (then again, if your flag is correct, Domestic US Shipping shouldn't be too bad as the vast majority of good sellers are in the US)

Its a bad spot to be in, certainly don't envy that position. I'm lucky enough to have several clubs nearby with very energetic players, which is really why I think I've had fun with Warhammer in general. I'd be way more reluctant to shell out more cash if I knew I was going to play out of 'obligation', if you know what I mean.





The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/30 04:49:42


Post by: daedalus


 StarTrotter wrote:


Humerously they are about to close the last GW shop here so after that the only real choice is to build a gaming table. I'm kind of sad, the employee was very kind and made people come in. Narrative campaigns, tournaments, apoc games, kill teams, hell, he went out of his way to make cool battlefields with a combination of GW models, forgeworld models, greenstuff, and some personal customization. They had endless stacks of terrain as well. The place went from being dead under the previous employee to almost always having people in it painting or playing with many sales. But it's closing out. I only bought there because it was so close and the employee really did try without being irritating.

I think I'll hop off to being ebay oriented at last. GW has really finally pushed my final buttons and if I keep buying from them I think I'll quit the game for good. Overall, I'll only really buy a starter force or things that they provide discounts on. A new BRB so soon I might not but a starter force with cheap armies that would be interesting for me and a friend as well as a cheap codex is a-okay with me.


I've built one (one was for a friend, the first one, really, I had it already for D&D). Two different designs, one folding, the other not. Design was crude, but I could give you the general idea if you want.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/30 04:50:53


Post by: StarTrotter


 daedalus wrote:
 StarTrotter wrote:


Humerously they are about to close the last GW shop here so after that the only real choice is to build a gaming table. I'm kind of sad, the employee was very kind and made people come in. Narrative campaigns, tournaments, apoc games, kill teams, hell, he went out of his way to make cool battlefields with a combination of GW models, forgeworld models, greenstuff, and some personal customization. They had endless stacks of terrain as well. The place went from being dead under the previous employee to almost always having people in it painting or playing with many sales. But it's closing out. I only bought there because it was so close and the employee really did try without being irritating.

I think I'll hop off to being ebay oriented at last. GW has really finally pushed my final buttons and if I keep buying from them I think I'll quit the game for good. Overall, I'll only really buy a starter force or things that they provide discounts on. A new BRB so soon I might not but a starter force with cheap armies that would be interesting for me and a friend as well as a cheap codex is a-okay with me.


I've built one (one was for a friend, the first one, really, I had it already for D&D). Two different designs, one folding, the other not. Design was crude, but I could give you the general idea if you want.


I'd be very thankful actually. My friend has a table that was custom built to be just the right size for competitive gaming but it's just flat wood and nothing else about it. Perhaps in private though?


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/30 05:13:58


Post by: Scipio Africanus


I do this when I play video games. I rate the value for money of the game I bought.

For example, I got Mount and Blade: warband for $20 AUD in a bundle with WFAS and the original, I've played a combined 700 hours of the thing, for someting like 2.8 cents per hour of play

In 40k, I'll have spent ~900 on my new Guard Army at 1850. I've bought ~400 dollars so far and painted for ~20 hours, having played 7 games at about an hour and a half apiece.

So I've gotten 30.5 hours out of my guard army so far. During midsemester break, I should get in double that.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/30 22:45:22


Post by: Yodhrin


 Ailaros wrote:
Yodhrin wrote:I already explained why your argument is bunk in the post you selectively quoted from, so how about you do me the basic courtesy of actually addressing that counterpoint rather than just making the same assertion over again?

I didn't address it because it does nothing of the sort.

Your claim is that you haven't gotten your money's worth, and thus 40k is a bad value. You're the one extrapolating from personal experience and claiming it's objective reality. Meanwhile, however much value one gets, it is certainly possible to get a lot more value out of 40k than a lot of other things, something which you don't seem to understand, so you're throwing away a reasonable argument by incorrectly calling it a mere assertion.

If it looks like I was dismissing your comment, it's because I was. Because your comment boils down to nothing more than "it's expensive for me, thus it can't be a good value to you".



That's a grotesque misrepresentation of my argument and you bloody well know it. My claim was that the fact that some people, myself included, won't get their money's worth refutes YOUR argument that because you personally do get your money's worth, 40K is objectively good value. Perhaps you and Zwei, another dismissive serial misrepresenter of others' views, will find happiness together on my ignore list.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/04/30 23:56:42


Post by: Klerych


Hah, I love 40k community. Such a funny bunch that's never pleased...

"6th ed is the worst!" "Fix 6th ed, it's unplayable!" "They should change 6th ed asap!" "They should quickly move onto next edition to address all those flaws ASAP like a hotfix"

[BAM, rumours of 7th ed nearing.]

"6th ed is so young, y you change so soon!" "6th ed ain't that bad! Y you do this?!" "Why change ed, we guna starve!" "How can they release a new edition so soon, money grabbing! Scam! Malarky!"

People whined that it needs fixing, now they whine that it's getting fixed with a supposed new book. Seriously, guys, get your gak together..! GW is not going to magically print a fix-it-all uber errata as they have a policy of not changing the content of the BRB (and for a good reason, you can't just patch a printed book so many people bought), so releasing next edition so soon looks like a fine way to fix all the bad things.. and yet now people whine about having to buy just one book after few years. Isn't that kinda stupid of them?


Also whining about the price is kinda ridiculous, because no other rulebook is even close to the BRB in terms of quality or effort. I'm not saying that it's worth it's very high price, but it's definetely better than anything Pants listed in my opinion.

I'd rather pay more and have a great feeling 40k BRB over the Warmachine rulebook which is just meh or a bare ruleset like Mantic ones that are free. I mean.. those 'systems' are more like a placeholder that's just an excuse to make models that can stand in for 40k/WFB miniatures, nothing more. Just pretending to have a system with basic, meh rules that are just enough to float their goats and pretend that they aspire to something more than doing cheap replacements for GW's expensive models.

I'm sorry, but the print quality, paper, durability, editing, layout and design of 40k BRB are just great.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/01 00:02:51


Post by: A Town Called Malus




Now I know you're having a laugh. The editing of the 40K BRB is awful. Any book with a price tag like the 40K BRB shouldn't have basic grammar and spelling mistakes.

For that price tag I expect it to be of the same quality as one of my University Physics textbooks, considering the price is about the same. It is not.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/01 00:07:13


Post by: StarTrotter


Valuable lesson. A community is composed with multiple people. No matter what you do, people will complain and disagree.

Also I'd disagree with some statements.

For starters, the BRB isn't great in terms of quality or effort. It's unbalanced, it's clunky, it's disorganized, and most of the fluff is just re-released. Heck, if you want a GW book that is quality look at LotR if you can fidn it. Now those are some good rules.

And Warmachine's rules aren't that made. Can't remember which it is but Warmachine or Warmahordes, or both, vastly outtsrip 40k's book for less.

So what did we learn from this? Never lump an entire fanbase into one because shockingly everybody has an opinion and we aren't a hive mind.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/01 00:31:03


Post by: Araenion


I'm mostly a player, but my secret passion is modelling. I take immense enjoyment in piecing together the gorgeous miniatures that GW produces. Now, I collected plastic miniatures of airplanes, ships, what have yous all through my adolescent years, and I've never had so much fun with them as I had collecting and modelling GW miniatures, even if you don't include all the available conversions available to me, and I'm pretty sure I spent less money on GW products through the years than I did on movie tickets or video games, for tenfold the enjoyiment they've granted me.

If you can show me what other tabletop gaming system has such a beautiful miniatures as 40k, I might consider switching, but until I see that for myself, I'm sticking to my gorgeous Eldar/Dark Eldar collection and I will keep collecting them as long as they provide me with the fun I need to deal with all the serious stuff life throws at me.

Could GW be a better company when it comes to dealing with their players? Sure, definitely. But I don't deal with GW, I don't talk to them, I wouldn't even know how bad they are if I wasn't a regular here on DakkaDakka and other gaming sites.

The only question I ask myself when I look at my shelf filled with GW products is whether or not I'm getting my fair share of money spent vs fun gained. And the answer is still a resounding yes. That's the only thing I care about.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/01 00:48:54


Post by: hobojebus


 Araenion wrote:
I'm mostly a player, but my secret passion is modelling. I take immense enjoyment in piecing together the gorgeous miniatures that GW produces. Now, I collected plastic miniatures of airplanes, ships, what have yous all through my adolescent years, and I've never had so much fun with them as I had collecting and modelling GW miniatures, even if you don't include all the available conversions available to me, and I'm pretty sure I spent less money on GW products through the years than I did on movie tickets or video games, for tenfold the enjoyiment they've granted me.

If you can show me what other tabletop gaming system has such a beautiful miniatures as 40k, I might consider switching, but until I see that for myself, I'm sticking to my gorgeous Eldar/Dark Eldar collection and I will keep collecting them as long as they provide me with the fun I need to deal with all the serious stuff life throws at me.

Could GW be a better company when it comes to dealing with their players? Sure, definitely. But I don't deal with GW, I don't talk to them, I wouldn't even know how bad they are if I wasn't a regular here on DakkaDakka and other gaming sites.

The only question I ask myself when I look at my shelf filled with GW products is whether or not I'm getting my fair share of money spent vs fun gained. And the answer is still a resounding yes. That's the only thing I care about.


Well first this is a talk about the rule book not the models so your massively off topic.

Second fine cast resin cost them 13 pence a gallon, so if you think we are not being ripped off for what we pay your on something strong and I want a hit or two.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/01 07:47:28


Post by: Scipio Africanus


Would anyone else pay double price if the rule book was just the rulebook?

I don't really want a 400 page book that's 80% not rules.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/01 07:50:27


Post by: StarTrotter


 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Would anyone else pay double price if the rule book was just the rulebook?

I don't really want a 400 page book that's 80% not rules.


Naw, I wouldn't want to pay 150 dollars for 80 pages . Heck, if they made it less fancy or overly complex it'd probably be even smaller!


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/01 09:56:57


Post by: Skinnereal


What GW won't catch me doing is buying a LE edition ever again.
The Collectors edition of the BRB was very nice, and looks good, but is:
too big to take to clubs,
lacking any additional content over the normal BRB,
not updated with rule changes, which the e- and iBooks are.

So, the basic BRB might be good enough for most, and for me since that mistaken purchase.
Even that's more expensive that it should be, but over 2 years, isn't that bad.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/01 10:14:14


Post by: Scipio Africanus


 StarTrotter wrote:
 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Would anyone else pay double price if the rule book was just the rulebook?

I don't really want a 400 page book that's 80% not rules.


Naw, I wouldn't want to pay 150 dollars for 80 pages . Heck, if they made it less fancy or overly complex it'd probably be even smaller!


I'd pay 250 bucks and love it.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/01 12:14:37


Post by: ChazSexington


 Yodhrin wrote:
My projects might not be "massive", but they're what I can afford, and GW springing a new edition on us in the middle of their usual cycle means I get to have half a hobby for a few months, paint or play, either or. You of course are perfectly free to give zero feths about my circumstances, or indeed anyone else's, but the fact that your circumstances mean GW's unnecessary behaviour won't affect your enjoyment is not sufficient to make GW's behaviour objectively acceptable and everyone else's experience invalid.


I doubt GW's business model includes catering to people who can ill-afford a 30£ rulebook.

But you would've thought a 30£ rulebook knew the singular form of dice.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/01 13:08:13


Post by: Smacks


Commoragh's Fist wrote:
Hey guys, I know there are plenty of talk regarding the 7th ed rumors, I just wanted to make a point that has stuck out to me. In my humble opinion the BRB isn't a bad entertainment value due to the fact that it only lasted two years.
...
I'd argue we've gotten more hours of enjoyment out of it than most people would in a video game, and in my opinion 75$ for two years of entertainment isn't a bad thing.


The argument is fallacious because you cannot put a price on feeling amused or entertained. It is something within us that is essentially free. Scrunch up a piece of paper and try to throw it in the waste paper basket, instant amusement and costs nothing.

There are plenty of pastimes that don't require expensive paraphernalia, yet keep people entertained for a lifetime. A chess set, for example, can be acquired for small change. The rules are freely available. Many people have dedicated their lives to that game. Compared to chess (which is arguably way more similar to to 40k than a video game) 40k is horrendously expensive. By your logic chess should cost more, because the rules haven't changed for hundreds of years.

The fact is we don't pay for amusement or even the time that we spend amused. What we pay for is the materials and paraphernalia needed to perform our desired activity. In some instances we might share or rent equipment and thus be limited in time or sessions (this is especially true with something very expensive like an indoor ski slope). Other times we buy everything we need, and then we can do our activity as much as we want for free, OR until something is used up/wears out. The later is important because it is really the only situation where time is an issue with things that we own. We can put a price on things like materials and labour costs. That is the best way to judge if we are getting good value, not how long we are able to amuse ourselves.

If you're buying a BRB for the first time then you're getting a combined rulebook and source book. Compared to other books it is still quite expensive. Compared to other rulebooks it's insane. If you own a previous version of the BRB (which most of us do) then all you are really getting is amended rules. In the video game analogy this is more akin to bug fix/patch than a sequel (patches are usually free). Then to top it off... it is incomplete (doesn't work without the codex) and it become obsolete in two years?! That's very close to being 'worn out'.

In summation it is more expensive than other books, wears out much faster, and half the pages are missing! To my mind that is not good value. Even if you can amuse yourself by trying to frisbee it in the bin from a distance after GW makes it worthless again.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/01 13:09:31


Post by: GorillaWarfare


Commoragh's Fist wrote:
Hey guys, I know there are plenty of talk regarding the 7th ed rumors, I just wanted to make a point that has stuck out to me. In my humble opinion the BRB isn't a bad entertainment value due to the fact that it only lasted two years. Given that the BRB was roughly the cost of a video game, I'd argue we've gotten more hours of enjoyment out of it than most people would in a video game, and in my opinion 75$ for two years of entertainment isn't a bad thing... I'm really not sure why so many are up in arms about this. Nobody is being forced to purchase this, much like no one is forced into any hobby. I know the rules are pretty much a mandatory purchase for people that want to play with the updated and most current rule set, but 75$ over two years really isn't terrible. It's certainly cheaper than many things, i.e. going to the movies over the course of two years, etc. etc.

I'm not advocating GW at all, and I know the community is upset about a lot of things regarding GW, but the price point over two years hardly seems like good argument to me. Thoughts?


It not just the rules though. You also need the minis which will add to the cost per year considerably. It not like you can just purchase the rule book and be done with it. Furthermore, there is only a very small sliver of pages in the BRB that we need. I myself consider the $75 I spent to be mostly a waste, because I ended up getting the mini rule book which is everything you need in a much more convenient size. As far as the fluff is concerned? Well, older rule books have the same fluff and more interesting layouts (such as 3rd edition).


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/01 14:51:48


Post by: creeping-deth87


 Klerych wrote:
Hah, I love 40k community. Such a funny bunch that's never pleased...

"6th ed is the worst!" "Fix 6th ed, it's unplayable!" "They should change 6th ed asap!" "They should quickly move onto next edition to address all those flaws ASAP like a hotfix"

[BAM, rumours of 7th ed nearing.]

"6th ed is so young, y you change so soon!" "6th ed ain't that bad! Y you do this?!" "Why change ed, we guna starve!" "How can they release a new edition so soon, money grabbing! Scam! Malarky!"

People whined that it needs fixing, now they whine that it's getting fixed with a supposed new book. Seriously, guys, get your gak together..! GW is not going to magically print a fix-it-all uber errata as they have a policy of not changing the content of the BRB (and for a good reason, you can't just patch a printed book so many people bought), so releasing next edition so soon looks like a fine way to fix all the bad things.. and yet now people whine about having to buy just one book after few years. Isn't that kinda stupid of them?


Also whining about the price is kinda ridiculous, because no other rulebook is even close to the BRB in terms of quality or effort. I'm not saying that it's worth it's very high price, but it's definetely better than anything Pants listed in my opinion.

I'd rather pay more and have a great feeling 40k BRB over the Warmachine rulebook which is just meh or a bare ruleset like Mantic ones that are free. I mean.. those 'systems' are more like a placeholder that's just an excuse to make models that can stand in for 40k/WFB miniatures, nothing more. Just pretending to have a system with basic, meh rules that are just enough to float their goats and pretend that they aspire to something more than doing cheap replacements for GW's expensive models.

I'm sorry, but the print quality, paper, durability, editing, layout and design of 40k BRB are just great.


You mean the rulebook with piss poor editing that has spelling and grammatical mistakes everywhere? The rulebook which had a long line of the cover art strip away along the spine the day I bought it just from having it open and reading it on my table? The rulebook with the 'great layout' that has all the psyker tables at the back of the book separated by hundreds of pages from the rest of the rules? The rulebook which has far more ambiguity than any of the other rulebooks you just mentioned?

THAT rulebook? Oh yeah. Way better quality.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/01 15:16:36


Post by: wufai


I want to chime in that the BRB proboly is a bad value for most people. There reason is the people expected to get more life out of that BRB before it a new revision is needed.

Having set that, I think its a also a fallacy to expect rulebooks to have a certain useful life before needing replacement. Anything, if done badly can and should be replaced as soon as possible. Window Vista doesn't have to wait 5 years prior to Windows 7. The 2012 Honda Civc only waited 1 year for a new facelift that usually arrives after 3.

The take home idea is that you pay what you get for, don't attach certain expectiations of it. If you think you are being ripped off, become a smarter buyer! Don't buy the BRB on day 1, don't buy the collector ed, buy the minirule book in 3 months.

I for one will be buying this new BRB (my first BRB). I never owned any of the previous becuase I know it will become obsilete in a few years. I want this one in particular because I feel after this ed we will not be seeing another BRB again or my interest for 40K will finally died out completly. I want a nice thick BRB with fluff and new models as a farewell token to 40K. hence I'm acturally looking forward to this upcoming release.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/01 15:23:29


Post by: Co'tor Shas


So many text books. Why the feth do they have to be so expensive!?!


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/01 15:27:31


Post by: Sigvatr


 Co'tor Shas wrote:
So many text books. Why the feth do they have to be so expensive!?!


They are the mere lowest common denominator everyone has to buy when playing the game. Models can be proxied, converted and scratch-built but books can't. The high price is what keeps me, personally, from buying more of them though. I would love to buy Fall of Orpheus, but at that ridiculous price tag, I stick to the rule pages.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/01 15:30:31


Post by: Co'tor Shas


 Sigvatr wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
So many text books. Why the feth do they have to be so expensive!?!


They are the mere lowest common denominator everyone has to buy when playing the game. Models can be proxied, converted and scratch-built but books can't. The high price is what keeps me, personally, from buying more of them though. I would love to buy Fall of Orpheus, but at that ridiculous price tag, I stick to the rule pages.

Actually that was a reply to daedalus' post about books more expensive than the BRB.
Two pages back.


I'm not sure what happened.


(I was talking about college textbooks)


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/01 16:32:21


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 Co'tor Shas wrote:
So many text books. Why the feth do they have to be so expensive!?!


Because they are proof-read, well edited and extensively researched.

Also because everyone knows students are rich


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/01 16:33:19


Post by: Co'tor Shas


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
So many text books. Why the feth do they have to be so expensive!?!


Because they are proof-read, well edited and extensively researched.

Also because everyone knows students are rich

Oh god, the errors. So many errors.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/01 17:15:58


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 Co'tor Shas wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
So many text books. Why the feth do they have to be so expensive!?!


Because they are proof-read, well edited and extensively researched.

Also because everyone knows students are rich

Oh god, the errors. So many errors.


BRB or your textbooks? What subject is it for?


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/02 15:00:41


Post by: Co'tor Shas


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
So many text books. Why the feth do they have to be so expensive!?!


Because they are proof-read, well edited and extensively researched.

Also because everyone knows students are rich

Oh god, the errors. So many errors.


BRB or your textbooks? What subject is it for?

Chemistry.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/02 15:03:38


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Chemistry.


A proper subject, well done


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/02 15:12:46


Post by: Polonius


Quicker editions and pricier core rulebooks are only going to alienate fringe players. At some point, we all look at a new edition, and realize how little we'll likely get out of it.

It's all matters of degree, but I'm not sure if I'll drop $100 on a new rulebook, for the same reason the OP would: I haven't gotten that much fun out of it!



The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/02 15:21:22


Post by: welshhoppo


I'll probably wait and see if the new rulebook is actually a new rulebook or the full compendium of 6th edition before I make any decisions. As much as I love the full size book with all it's lovely fluff and pretty pictures, the smaller book is just so much more practical (and cheaper) and it is much easier to take with me (and cheaper). Did I mention it was also cheaper?


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/02 15:32:17


Post by: MWHistorian


Good value or no? That's subjective. (Though I'm leaning on value for the money if you play a lot.)
I personally don't believe this "7th ed" is going to be a new edition, just a consolidation of other books in one.
But.
If a game is going to change its rules with new editions every two years, that's just annoying and if you told me "Hey, get into Warhammer 40k, because we get editions every two years!" I'd tell you no thanks.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/02 22:45:53


Post by: tyrannosaurus


hobojebus wrote:


Hyperbole (/haɪˈpɜrbəliː/ hy-pur-bə-lee;[1] Greek: ὑπερβολή hyperbolē, "exaggeration") is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally. (from Wikipedia because i'm too lazy to write it myself)

Being in uni i would of thought you'd of been familiar with hyperbole, of course there are more expensive books such as The First Book of Urizen, William Blake which sold for millions, or the Gutenberg bible.
.


It's 'have', not 'of'. Also, 'I' should be a capital. Personally I wouldn't mention language techniques without making sure my post was grammatically correct..


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/02 22:50:08


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 tyrannosaurus wrote:
hobojebus wrote:


Hyperbole (/haɪˈpɜrbəliː/ hy-pur-bə-lee;[1] Greek: ὑπερβολή hyperbolē, "exaggeration") is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally. (from Wikipedia because i'm too lazy to write it myself)

Being in uni i would of thought you'd of been familiar with hyperbole, of course there are more expensive books such as The First Book of Urizen, William Blake which sold for millions, or the Gutenberg bible.
.


It's 'have', not 'of'. Also, 'I' should be a capital. Personally I wouldn't mention language techniques without making sure my post was grammatically correct..


Exalted.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/03 03:34:56


Post by: Ruberu


I only played 5 games with the 6th ed book and swiched back to our old and trusty 3rd 4th and 5th BRBs. I did not get my $70 worth out of the book. Unless I see HUGE posts of how great and/or how much more "fixed" 7th ed is, I will not be buying it.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/03 04:11:41


Post by: PrehistoricUFO


Wasn't upset at all about the idea of a new BRB. I got more than my money's worth out of it. No big deal at all to me.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/03 09:27:40


Post by: Grimtuff


 tyrannosaurus wrote:
hobojebus wrote:


Hyperbole (/haɪˈpɜrbəliː/ hy-pur-bə-lee;[1] Greek: ὑπερβολή hyperbolē, "exaggeration") is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally. (from Wikipedia because i'm too lazy to write it myself)

Being in uni i would of thought you'd of been familiar with hyperbole, of course there are more expensive books such as The First Book of Urizen, William Blake which sold for millions, or the Gutenberg bible.
.


It's 'have', not 'of'. Also, 'I' should be a capital. Personally I wouldn't mention language techniques without making sure my post was grammatically correct..


If we're going down that route...

colloquialism
kəˈləʊkwɪəlɪz(ə)m/
noun
noun: colloquialism; plural noun: colloquialisms a word or phrase that is not formal or literary and is used in ordinary or familiar conversation.



The " -'ve" conjunction when used orally sounds a lot like "of" and had crept its way into written language too. Whilst it is unacceptable in formal writing it is simply due to the similar sounds that the contraction is accepted in oral and/or non formal language due to similar sounds. However, you must know the difference in formal settings.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/03 09:41:22


Post by: Seaward


The number of people willing to talk themselves into helping GW fluff its EOTY sales figures by re-buying all the crap supplements they nickel-and-dimed you with over the past year as long as they're in the form of a pretty new book is astonishing.

Edit: also, to the guy above me, no. Being colloquial has nothing at all to do with written misuse of a word. "There" is not an acceptable written substitute for "their" just because a lot of people use it incorrectly.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/03 10:05:43


Post by: loki old fart


 Ailaros wrote:
Yodhrin wrote:I already explained why your argument is bunk in the post you selectively quoted from, so how about you do me the basic courtesy of actually addressing that counterpoint rather than just making the same assertion over again?

I didn't address it because it does nothing of the sort.

Your claim is that you haven't gotten your money's worth, and thus 40k is a bad value. You're the one extrapolating from personal experience and claiming it's objective reality. Meanwhile, however much value one gets, it is certainly possible to get a lot more value out of 40k than a lot of other things, something which you don't seem to understand, so you're throwing away a reasonable argument by incorrectly calling it a mere assertion.

If it looks like I was dismissing your comment, it's because I was. Because your comment boils down to nothing more than "it's expensive for me, thus it can't be a good value to you".


Where as yours is far more valid, It's cheap for me so it must be for you.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/03 11:48:03


Post by: Grimtuff


 Seaward wrote:

Edit: also, to the guy above me, no. Being colloquial has nothing at all to do with written misuse of a word. "There" is not an acceptable written substitute for "their" just because a lot of people use it incorrectly.


Note how I said oral language, not written. They're homophones, just like your there/they're/their example. Mixing those up in written language is a cat ass trophy.

But we're going OT...




Back OT- Now matter how much you play the 40k rulebook is overpriced. Compared to every other product out there is it overpriced and poorly edited and looks somewhat like amateur hour by comparison IMO.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/03 17:38:35


Post by: Jaceevoke


 loki old fart wrote:
 Ailaros wrote:
Yodhrin wrote:I already explained why your argument is bunk in the post you selectively quoted from, so how about you do me the basic courtesy of actually addressing that counterpoint rather than just making the same assertion over again?

I didn't address it because it does nothing of the sort.

Your claim is that you haven't gotten your money's worth, and thus 40k is a bad value. You're the one extrapolating from personal experience and claiming it's objective reality. Meanwhile, however much value one gets, it is certainly possible to get a lot more value out of 40k than a lot of other things, something which you don't seem to understand, so you're throwing away a reasonable argument by incorrectly calling it a mere assertion.

If it looks like I was dismissing your comment, it's because I was. Because your comment boils down to nothing more than "it's expensive for me, thus it can't be a good value to you".


Where as yours is far more valid, It's cheap for me so it must be for you.


Ailaros makes a good point actually, there is plenty of value to be had with the BRB even if it is outdated. Even if 7th edition drops then you can still use your old BRB, it doesn't just spontaneously combust when the new one is released. But I must question the logic behind starting an incredibly expensive hobby, and then finding the cheapest part of said hobby to expensive.


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/03 17:44:32


Post by: loki old fart


 Jaceevoke wrote:
 loki old fart wrote:
 Ailaros wrote:
Yodhrin wrote:I already explained why your argument is bunk in the post you selectively quoted from, so how about you do me the basic courtesy of actually addressing that counterpoint rather than just making the same assertion over again?

I didn't address it because it does nothing of the sort.

Your claim is that you haven't gotten your money's worth, and thus 40k is a bad value. You're the one extrapolating from personal experience and claiming it's objective reality. Meanwhile, however much value one gets, it is certainly possible to get a lot more value out of 40k than a lot of other things, something which you don't seem to understand, so you're throwing away a reasonable argument by incorrectly calling it a mere assertion.

If it looks like I was dismissing your comment, it's because I was. Because your comment boils down to nothing more than "it's expensive for me, thus it can't be a good value to you".
Where as yours is far more valid, It's cheap for me so it must be for you.



Ailaros makes a good point actually, there is plenty of value to be had with the BRB even if it is outdated. Even if 7th edition drops then you can still use your old BRB, it doesn't just spontaneously combust when the new one is released. But I must question the logic behind starting an incredibly expensive hobby, and then finding the cheapest part of said hobby to expensive.


Maybe it wasn't that expensive,, when he started


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/03 17:50:46


Post by: Grimtuff


When a £50 rulebook is considered the cheapest part of the GW HHHobby you know there's something wrong...


The BRB really hasn't been a terrible value in two years... @ 2014/05/03 17:53:35


Post by: Jaceevoke


 loki old fart wrote:
 Jaceevoke wrote:
 loki old fart wrote:
 Ailaros wrote:
Yodhrin wrote:I already explained why your argument is bunk in the post you selectively quoted from, so how about you do me the basic courtesy of actually addressing that counterpoint rather than just making the same assertion over again?

I didn't address it because it does nothing of the sort.

Your claim is that you haven't gotten your money's worth, and thus 40k is a bad value. You're the one extrapolating from personal experience and claiming it's objective reality. Meanwhile, however much value one gets, it is certainly possible to get a lot more value out of 40k than a lot of other things, something which you don't seem to understand, so you're throwing away a reasonable argument by incorrectly calling it a mere assertion.

If it looks like I was dismissing your comment, it's because I was. Because your comment boils down to nothing more than "it's expensive for me, thus it can't be a good value to you".
Where as yours is far more valid, It's cheap for me so it must be for you.



Ailaros makes a good point actually, there is plenty of value to be had with the BRB even if it is outdated. Even if 7th edition drops then you can still use your old BRB, it doesn't just spontaneously combust when the new one is released. But I must question the logic behind starting an incredibly expensive hobby, and then finding the cheapest part of said hobby to expensive.


Maybe it wasn't that expensive,, when he started


A favorite saying of mine "You can never go back", anyway if that is the case then you always have the other less scrupulous option.