Explaining time.
Some of you may have heard the word senescence when people are talking about complex life. Senescence is basically the deterioration of complex life with age. It normally occurs with regards to fertility and physical strength, and certain animals such as lobsters, or bowhead whales do not experience these negative effects, but lobsters still end up dying because they grow to big for their anatomy to handle. And bowhead whales? Who knows how they die.
Putting this in application
Space marine fertility has never showed up in anything and is left vague rendering it useless for our purposes. It's well known that space marines don't lose any physical strength as they age. They may appear older but they're just as strong and fast as their younger brothers. Going by the only two criterion death in regards to age is judged on would mean marines are biologically immortal.

No.

 Psienesis wrote:
No.

So then yes?

No. Plenty of evidence in both BL and Codices that Space Marines are not biologically immortal.

What about Dante?

 Psienesis wrote:
No. Plenty of evidence in both BL and Codices that Space Marines are not biologically immortal.

This loses relevance when they would be immortal in regards to real world biology, given what the only two judging points are.

My only problem with this is that BA shoot a giant hole through this, Dante in particular.

Interesting theory, and considering many SMs have insanely long lives, I would say it's possible. One of those "we may never know" scenarios though since having the entire universe in open war puts a real damper on a long safe lifespan lol.

I don't believe that any marine has ever died what we would call a natural death.

They do appear to deteriorate with age, but we have yet to see evidence of a Marine dying of simple old age.


But the long and short of it is that Marines live a dangerous life. They'll never just sit around and wait to see if they die, they'll fight to the bitter end and die a heroic death in service to the Emperor.

Thus the idea of biological immortality is moot.

Space marines are "Immortal" in terms of time alone. A marine left to his devices, given enough food and water, occupation to keep him from going insane could live, at the very least, an extraordinarily long time. Longer than Eldrad, I believe.

The only reason space marines don't tend to be older than ~600 years at the very most is that the things die left right and centre. Let's apply the rules of instance probability and say that the longer a space marine lives, the more wars he fights in and thus, his chance of dying begins to approach one.

Dante, Grimnar and Cassius seem to be exceptions to this rule - they fight in the most dangerous regions of space and in the highest points of conflict, but they've got plot arm- I mean, they're lucky.

I believe Space Marines are as immortal as my Koi fish. As a species they've been known to live over 200 years, but I had one die this winter due to an incident.

There is a book you might want to read if you are interested in the subject called "The Postmortal". It's about what happens to humanity after a cure is developed for aging. You're functionally immortal, but you're going to die if you get hit by a bus, or develop cancer, and so on.

Aging is possibly a combination of the decay of DNA as copies are made over time and the effects of time itself on marines. Since marines mostly use human DNA (At least they don't mention fixing the DNA replication decay issue) they would suffer the from the same thing. Being intended for reproduction has nothing to do with it. It's probable that their sheer durability prevents them deteriorating too quickly.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Aging is possibly a combination of the decay of DNA as copies are made over time and the effects of time itself on marines. Since marines mostly use human DNA (At least they don't mention fixing the DNA replication decay issue) they would suffer the from the same thing. Being intended for reproduction has nothing to do with it. It's probable that their sheer durability prevents them deteriorating too quickly.

in the far future, they likely have a resolution for telomerase degrading telomeres (the DNA decay you speak of).

Several Space Marines in the BL series have shown signs of aging. Dantioch was prematurely aged by the Hrud, but one of the loyalist Luna Wolves (one of the ones that would become a Grey Knight predecessor) was also showing a lot of visible signs of aging. Despite the wrinkles, he was still able to physically do what all other marines could physically do, so it was noted in-universe that this was just another reminder of how little everyone knew exactly about how Space Marine physiology worked.

Of course, Blood Angels age much slower than other Space Marines. Dante looks younger than that old Ultramarine guy and Logan.

As for dying of old age, IIRC there's studio fluff passages that unarguably-but-indirectly state it happens which people have posted to these forums several times although we've yet to see an actual story of a Space Marine dying of old age.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Several Space Marines in the BL series have shown signs of aging. Dantioch was prematurely aged by the Hrud, but one of the loyalist Luna Wolves (one of the ones that would become a Grey Knight predecessor) was also showing a lot of visible signs of aging. Despite the wrinkles, he was still able to physically do what all other marines could physically do, so it was noted in-universe that this was just another reminder of how little everyone knew exactly about how Space Marine physiology worked.

Of course, Blood Angels age much slower than other Space Marines. Dante looks younger than that old Ultramarine guy and Logan.

As for dying of old age, IIRC there's studio fluff passages that unarguably-but-indirectly state it happens which people have posted to these forums several times although we've yet to see an actual story of a Space Marine dying of old age.

This gets me thinking...what if Space Marine DNA is altered in such a way, perhaps an imperfect alteration, that allows genetic immortality without accounting for phenotypic immortality with regard to the polygenic traits of skin quality, hair color, etc.. Seems unlikely given the level of genetic engineering taking place to make their existence plausible in the first place. But hey, its 40k. Lots of discrepancies exist, and I admit that applying modern genetic principles to a fictional universe may not be the best idea lol.

mstockwe87 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Aging is possibly a combination of the decay of DNA as copies are made over time and the effects of time itself on marines. Since marines mostly use human DNA (At least they don't mention fixing the DNA replication decay issue) they would suffer the from the same thing. Being intended for reproduction has nothing to do with it. It's probable that their sheer durability prevents them deteriorating too quickly.

in the far future, they likely have a resolution for telomerase degrading telomeres (the DNA decay you speak of).

Their solution isn't to treat the cause but rather the effects. It's not specified what rejuvenant treatments are but it seems to use children as a raw material. If I had to guess... they replace the decayed telomeres with "Fresh" ones. So, this tells me that they do not have a cure for this degradation which would mean that Space Marines aren't immortal by themselves. Blood Angels are actually noted for their long life which indicates that Marines do age.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

mstockwe87 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Aging is possibly a combination of the decay of DNA as copies are made over time and the effects of time itself on marines. Since marines mostly use human DNA (At least they don't mention fixing the DNA replication decay issue) they would suffer the from the same thing. Being intended for reproduction has nothing to do with it. It's probable that their sheer durability prevents them deteriorating too quickly.

in the far future, they likely have a resolution for telomerase degrading telomeres (the DNA decay you speak of).

Their solution isn't to treat the cause but rather the effects. It's not specified what rejuvenant treatments are but it seems to use children as a raw material. If I had to guess... they replace the decayed telomeres with "Fresh" ones. So, this tells me that they do not have a cure for this degradation which would mean that Space Marines aren't immortal by themselves. Blood Angels are actually noted for their long life which indicates that Marines do age.

Your Blood Angel quote does make me wonder, and adds credence to the argument that they do age in a traditional sense (albeit extended) bc of its wording. As far as telomeres go, it would be a relatively easy fix (theoretically) given the prerequisite amount of knowledge it would take to engineer individual organs to adapt to and integrate within broad-based human templates without auto-immune rejection given that immune response, with regard to innate response is predicated on genetics. Here again, we fall into the trap of applying real world science to a fictional universe I suppose.

 StarTrotter wrote:
My only problem with this is that BA shoot a giant hole through this, Dante in particular.

Yeah Blood Angels are weird.
It's seems to me that maybe the only part of normal marines that ages at all is their skin due to some deficiency but BA don't even have that.
That's my explanation for it, and given that "elderly marines" do everything younger marines do only better due to more experience, it at least makes sense.

The ten thousand year old Salamander says hello, along with all of this kinsmen that kicked it over the millennia on the same planet.

mstockwe87 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

mstockwe87 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Aging is possibly a combination of the decay of DNA as copies are made over time and the effects of time itself on marines. Since marines mostly use human DNA (At least they don't mention fixing the DNA replication decay issue) they would suffer the from the same thing. Being intended for reproduction has nothing to do with it. It's probable that their sheer durability prevents them deteriorating too quickly.

in the far future, they likely have a resolution for telomerase degrading telomeres (the DNA decay you speak of).

Their solution isn't to treat the cause but rather the effects. It's not specified what rejuvenant treatments are but it seems to use children as a raw material. If I had to guess... they replace the decayed telomeres with "Fresh" ones. So, this tells me that they do not have a cure for this degradation which would mean that Space Marines aren't immortal by themselves. Blood Angels are actually noted for their long life which indicates that Marines do age.

Your Blood Angel quote does make me wonder, and adds credence to the argument that they do age in a traditional sense (albeit extended) bc of its wording. As far as telomeres go, it would be a relatively easy fix (theoretically) given the prerequisite amount of knowledge it would take to engineer individual organs to adapt to and integrate within broad-based human templates without auto-immune rejection given that immune response, with regard to innate response is predicated on genetics. Here again, we fall into the trap of applying real world science to a fictional universe I suppose.

With the Imperium it is a fallacy to assume that just because they can do A that means they can o B just because A and B are strongly related. Their technology level is scattered at best. You have vehicles equipped with 20th century machine guns on the one hand and gravity defying light vehicles on the other. It is possible that they discovered a way to fix the aging problem a long time ago but they lost the tech and never recovered it. Or the rejuvenant solution is the best and only way to do it.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

mstockwe87 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

mstockwe87 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Aging is possibly a combination of the decay of DNA as copies are made over time and the effects of time itself on marines. Since marines mostly use human DNA (At least they don't mention fixing the DNA replication decay issue) they would suffer the from the same thing. Being intended for reproduction has nothing to do with it. It's probable that their sheer durability prevents them deteriorating too quickly.

in the far future, they likely have a resolution for telomerase degrading telomeres (the DNA decay you speak of).

Their solution isn't to treat the cause but rather the effects. It's not specified what rejuvenant treatments are but it seems to use children as a raw material. If I had to guess... they replace the decayed telomeres with "Fresh" ones. So, this tells me that they do not have a cure for this degradation which would mean that Space Marines aren't immortal by themselves. Blood Angels are actually noted for their long life which indicates that Marines do age.

Your Blood Angel quote does make me wonder, and adds credence to the argument that they do age in a traditional sense (albeit extended) bc of its wording. As far as telomeres go, it would be a relatively easy fix (theoretically) given the prerequisite amount of knowledge it would take to engineer individual organs to adapt to and integrate within broad-based human templates without auto-immune rejection given that immune response, with regard to innate response is predicated on genetics. Here again, we fall into the trap of applying real world science to a fictional universe I suppose.

With the Imperium it is a fallacy to assume that just because they can do A that means they can o B just because A and B are strongly related. Their technology level is scattered at best. You have vehicles equipped with 20th century machine guns on the one hand and gravity defying light vehicles on the other. It is possible that they discovered a way to fix the aging problem a long time ago but they lost the tech and never recovered it. Or the rejuvenant solution is the best and only way to do it.

It might also just be a completely different solution between the creation of Astartes and Rejuvie tech. The Astartes were made specifically by the GEOM himself, while Rejuvie tech is probably just a leftover of the DAOT or a diluted version of it.

Right. The thing is is that none of the Astartes implants seem to do anything about the Telomere issue. I am sure if GW writers knew about them and their role in the aging process I am sure they would have included an implant that "replaced" them through some means. As it stands I believe that the Space Marine's natural toughness allows them to overcome a lot of the issues that come with aging prolonging their lives. They are quite literally fighting off the reaper. That or one of the implants actually does help with this issue and the modern day Imperium either doesn't know about this or never mentions it in their works.

 Wyzilla wrote:
The ten thousand year old Salamander says hello, along with all of this kinsmen that kicked it over the millennia on the same planet.

Technically he starved/atrophied to death. With supplies he might have survived at least physically.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

mstockwe87 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

mstockwe87 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Aging is possibly a combination of the decay of DNA as copies are made over time and the effects of time itself on marines. Since marines mostly use human DNA (At least they don't mention fixing the DNA replication decay issue) they would suffer the from the same thing. Being intended for reproduction has nothing to do with it. It's probable that their sheer durability prevents them deteriorating too quickly.

in the far future, they likely have a resolution for telomerase degrading telomeres (the DNA decay you speak of).

Their solution isn't to treat the cause but rather the effects. It's not specified what rejuvenant treatments are but it seems to use children as a raw material. If I had to guess... they replace the decayed telomeres with "Fresh" ones. So, this tells me that they do not have a cure for this degradation which would mean that Space Marines aren't immortal by themselves. Blood Angels are actually noted for their long life which indicates that Marines do age.

Your Blood Angel quote does make me wonder, and adds credence to the argument that they do age in a traditional sense (albeit extended) bc of its wording. As far as telomeres go, it would be a relatively easy fix (theoretically) given the prerequisite amount of knowledge it would take to engineer individual organs to adapt to and integrate within broad-based human templates without auto-immune rejection given that immune response, with regard to innate response is predicated on genetics. Here again, we fall into the trap of applying real world science to a fictional universe I suppose.

With the Imperium it is a fallacy to assume that just because they can do A that means they can o B just because A and B are strongly related. Their technology level is scattered at best. You have vehicles equipped with 20th century machine guns on the one hand and gravity defying light vehicles on the other. It is possible that they discovered a way to fix the aging problem a long time ago but they lost the tech and never recovered it. Or the rejuvenant solution is the best and only way to do it.

point taken good sir

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
The ten thousand year old Salamander says hello, along with all of this kinsmen that kicked it over the millennia on the same planet.

Technically he starved/atrophied to death. With supplies he might have survived at least physically.

He was still very much alive, just that he stayed guard for so long and well, atrophied away. He did indeed age, as all Astartes do, but they can at least survive for around ten thousand years or so. Plus when in hibernation, Astartes seem to generate infinite energy.

Didn't we have this same thread few weeks ago ( and hundred times before that)? Space Marines are not immortal. It says it pretty clearly in BRB as well as in BA codex. Immortal marines is just We can find a different choice of words here please. Thanks.Reds8n people keep repeating.

Furthermore, we do not know what effect senescence has on marines. It is likely that their physical abilities would deteriorate somewhat, but it is being compensated by their experience and technology. Oldest living Ultramarine, (about 400 years old) Chaplain Cassius is mostly a cyborg.

Most will never live long ernough to suffer old age and die in battle.

Space Marines are not immortal, they visibly age, with Blood Angels doing so slower. Age is essentially degradation, and continual degradation ends in death.
Sus-an comas seem to completely or near enough completely stop biological function and so can indefinitely preserve a Marine as he is.

Fabius Bile says;

Angel Exterminatus, Chapter 21 wrote:The primarchs think their warriors are immortal, but they are wrong. We are as mortal as any living thing, we just take longer to die.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
It's well known that space marines don't lose any physical strength as they age. They may appear older but they're just as strong and fast as their younger brothers.

Not quite.

Codex Grey Knights, page 24 wrote:A small few Librarians are fortunate enough to reach an age when their bodies can no longer meet the rigours of campaign. Such warriors are removed from the Chapter's fighting roster entirely, and retire to the labyrinthine corridors of the Sanctum Santorum

So it's just like almost everything else about the Space Marines, that is, contradictory?

 Ashiraya wrote:
So it's just like almost everything else about the Space Marines, that is, contradictory?

It is really not contradictory at all, it is pretty clear that marines are not immortal. Some people just refuse to accept it.

Becoming infirm is hardly evidence that marines are not immortal. It just means they eventually become unfit for the extremely demanding physical requirements of constant warfare.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Becoming infirm is hardly evidence that marines are not immortal. It just means they eventually become unfit for the extremely demanding physical requirements of constant warfare.

Death is logical conclusion of infirmity.
In any case their limited lifespans are clearly stated; BRB: "Space Marines live extended life times - if they do not fall in battle, they can easily live two to three times longer than a normal man, and sometimes far longer."
And from 2nd edition BA codex: "The Blood Angels are amongst the longest-lived of all of the Space Marine Chapters, their gene-seed granting a vastly increased lifespan on all who possess it. It is not uncommon, therefore, for a Blood Angel to live for a millennium or more, if death in battle or the Red Thirst does not claim him first." Similar quote can be found in every edition of the BA book.

 Crimson wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
So it's just like almost everything else about the Space Marines, that is, contradictory?

It is really not contradictory at all, it is pretty clear that marines are not immortal. Some people just refuse to accept it.

I realise that you really don't want Marines to be immortal (Pretty clear judging by how fast you are to call the opposition 'fanwankery', happily breaking rule #1 in order to try to dissuade people from disagreeing) but your opinion does not equal objective fact.

There's sources pointing both ways- not least the over 10.000 year old votlw.

Before you say that is because of Chaos granting them long life, can you give me a source on that? Before you say it is due to the Warp compressing time for the survivors, I can toss you examples to the contrary.

BA's long life can just as easily be because fate has granted their warriors an unusually low risk of dying on the battlefield. It says nothing that they are unusally long-lived biologically, just unusually long-lived.

Even the quotes that explicitly say otherwise, like 2nd ed C:BA, are old and can easily have been retconned by the existence of the more recent sources contradicting it.

 Ashiraya wrote:

I realise that you really don't want Marines to be immortal (Pretty clear judging by how fast you are to call the opposition 'fanwankery') but your opinion does not equal fact.

This has nothing to do what I want the background to be, it has to do with what the background actually says.

 Crimson wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

I realise that you really don't want Marines to be immortal (Pretty clear judging by how fast you are to call the opposition 'fanwankery') but your opinion does not equal fact.

This has nothing to do what I want the background to be, it has to do with what the background actually says.

And yet you stare blindly at one side of the argument and try to paint it as the objective truth when I can gladly toss you sources that explain how it really is not that simple.

Want me to?

Not immortal, but still like gods unto their strength and will. Even gods can be killed, even gods can die. But its not immortal sweat that builds civilization, rather the opposite. What is a god amongst men?

I am sure you can come up with some tortured explanation why clear quotes actually mean actually exact opposite as what they say, but why would you want to? The immortality stance is purely based on a throwaway line in HH books, and even BL has realised their mistake and corrected it in the newer books.

 Crimson wrote:
I am sure you can come up with some tortured explanation why clear quotes actually mean actually exact opposite as what they say, but why would you want to? The immortality stance is purely based on a throwaway line in HH books, and even BL has realised their mistake and corrected it in the newer books.

Are you trying to convince people? Or are you simply stating your opinion?

 LumenPraebeo wrote:

Are you trying to convince people? Or are you simply stating your opinion?

I'd hope both. I have actually provided quotes, which I think are pretty definite. If some people refuse to accept them, so be it. In the end it is all fiction anyway.

Perhaps Gene-seed is partially Warp Magic and can produce varying results? No quotes to back me up. Just an ass pull.

Some evidence to back my hypothesis up is the staggeringly high mutation rates, how much Chaos Marines are empowered by the warp and how tampering with it has results like incredibly bad luck.

ThePrimordial wrote: given what the only two judging points are.

Given what your only two judging points are. And then ignoring the vast pile of data that doesn't fit your theory.

Space marines are explicitly said to have unnaturally long lives, and to be not immortal.

A few Mary Sues excepting.

What Mary Sues?

 Crimson wrote:

 LumenPraebeo wrote:

Are you trying to convince people? Or are you simply stating your opinion?

I'd hope both. I have actually provided quotes, which I think are pretty definite. If some people refuse to accept them, so be it. In the end it is all fiction anyway.

A single line?

That's overdoing it.

Aside from Horus Rising, we also have Honour among Fiends. A short story and an enlightening read, I can recommend it.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Heroes_of_the_Space_Marines_(Anthology)#Honour_Among_Fiends

It details a guy who has fought with his squad since the Heresy, and who tires of the eternal hunt, but he finds that the Gods have made him immortal and he simply can't die, so he is doomed to hunt forever.

Just as an example.

 Crimson wrote:
Didn't we have this same thread few weeks ago ( and hundred times before that)? Space Marines are not immortal. It says it pretty clearly in BRB as well as in BA codex. Immortal marines is just We can find a different choice of words here please. Thanks.Reds8n people keep repeating.

Furthermore, we do not know what effect senescence has on marines. It is likely that their physical abilities would deteriorate somewhat, but it is being compensated by their experience and technology. Oldest living Ultramarine, (about 400 years old) Chaplain Cassius is mostly a cyborg.

Except this is again, defeated by the ten thousand year old Salamander, along with all his fellows who died over the ten millennia to Orks.

Padorax has a dark Angel that is 10000 years old, no stasis or warp involved, if not immortal...bloody close to it

 Ashiraya wrote:

It details a guy who has fought with his squad since the Heresy, and who tires of the eternal hunt, but he finds that the Gods have made him immortal and he simply can't die, so he is doomed to hunt forever.

No one has denied that there are Chaos Marines that have witnessed the heresy.

Codex CSM, 6E:
"Indeed, records of the full horror of the Heresy are only preserved by the Daemon-hunting Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus, and perhaps within the memories of the Emperor himself.

Within the Eye of Terror, however, time flows differently. Many of the same traitors who howled their praises to the Gods of Chaos before the Imperial Palace still live to this day."

So no loyal Space Marine in the Imperium is alive to remember the Heresy, and it is only the strange properties of the Eye of Terror (and presumably other such warp breaches) that allows the existence of Chaos Marines who can do so.

Animus wrote:
Space Marines are not immortal, they visibly age, with Blood Angels doing so slower. Age is essentially degradation, and continual degradation ends in death.
Sus-an comas seem to completely or near enough completely stop biological function and so can indefinitely preserve a Marine as he is.

Fabius Bile says;

Angel Exterminatus, Chapter 21 wrote:The primarchs think their warriors are immortal, but they are wrong. We are as mortal as any living thing, we just take longer to die.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
It's well known that space marines don't lose any physical strength as they age. They may appear older but they're just as strong and fast as their younger brothers.

Not quite.

Codex Grey Knights, page 24 wrote:A small few Librarians are fortunate enough to reach an age when their bodies can no longer meet the rigours of campaign. Such warriors are removed from the Chapter's fighting roster entirely, and retire to the labyrinthine corridors of the Sanctum Santorum

You're gonna have to find more evidence out of tens of millions of words than a piece of ward fluff.

 Crimson wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

It details a guy who has fought with his squad since the Heresy, and who tires of the eternal hunt, but he finds that the Gods have made him immortal and he simply can't die, so he is doomed to hunt forever.

No one has denied that there are Chaos Marines that have witnessed the heresy.

Codex CSM, 6E:
"Indeed, records of the full horror of the Heresy are only preserved by the Daemon-hunting Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus, and perhaps within the memories of the Emperor himself.

Within the Eye of Terror, however, time flows differently. Many of the same traitors who howled their praises to the Gods of Chaos before the Imperial Palace still live to this day."

So no loyal Space Marine in the Imperium is alive to remember the Heresy, and it is only the strange properties of the Eye of Terror (and presumably other such warp breaches) that allows the existence of Chaos Marines who can do so.

It's true. That quote you have explains that just as there may be veterans of the heresy that are a mere thousand year old, equally likely is those who are a hundred thousand.

Read my link again. That guy killed enough Captains to form an altar of skulls, each captain the gene-seed successor of the one before.

That is not something you do in a short time.

 Ailaros wrote:

ThePrimordial wrote: given what the only two judging points are.

Given what your only two judging points are. And then ignoring the vast pile of data that doesn't fit your theory.

Space marines are explicitly said to have unnaturally long lives, and to be not immortal.

A few Mary Sues excepting.

Scientifically fertility and physicality ARE the two primary judging points when looking at senescence.
And what evidence? We have a single line of ward fluff to the contrary.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Except this is again, defeated by the ten thousand year old Salamander, along with all his fellows who died over the ten millennia to Orks.

Two things: 1) Sus-an membrane 2) BL books violate the background all the time and contradict even each other.

 Crimson wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Except this is again, defeated by the ten thousand year old Salamander, along with all his fellows who died over the ten millennia to Orks.

Two things: 1) Sus-an membrane 2) BL books violate the background all the time and contradict even each other.

Or the Blood Angel fluff is simply invalid and old.

And again 10k dark Angel, no stasis or warp involved, still a very nasty fighter, marines do indeed seem to be biologically immune to "normal" ageing up to a point

Dantioch is a bad example as we don't know how much he was aged, could be 400 years, could be 10000000000 years, it's never stated.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Explaining time.
Some of you may have heard the word senescence when people are talking about complex life. Senescence is basically the deterioration of complex life with age. It normally occurs with regards to fertility and physical strength, and certain animals such as lobsters, or bowhead whales do not experience these negative effects, but lobsters still end up dying because they grow to big for their anatomy to handle. And bowhead whales? Who knows how they die.
Putting this in application
Space marine fertility has never showed up in anything and is left vague rendering it useless for our purposes. It's well known that space marines don't lose any physical strength as they age. They may appear older but they're just as strong and fast as their younger brothers. Going by the only two criterion death in regards to age is judged on would mean marines are biologically immortal.

Well first, You have to know a fair share about Biology, not just something you read on Google.

Second,
\

I'd like to imaged this model, was sculpted to show a marine who died of old age. waiting for rescue.,

 Ashiraya wrote:

It's true. That quote you have explains that just as there may be veterans of the heresy that are a mere thousand year old, equally likely is those who are a hundred thousand.

It is clear from the context that the different way the time flows is the reason for those traitors still being alive.

Read my link again. That guy killed enough Captains to form an altar of skulls, each captain the gene-seed successor of the one before.

That is not something you do in a short time.

This is the guy who was specifically made immortal by the Chaos Gods? And even if he weren't, that doesn't mean he needed ten thousand years. As time flows differently in the Warp-influenced places, it is possible that from his perspective the Heresy was 'merely' a few centuries ago, and he killed a loyalist Captain every few years (exact frequency depending on the size of the altar.)

If anything, that story reinforces the idea that marines are not Immortal. There were dozens or hundreds of 'generations' of the loyalist marines during those 10 000 years. If it was merely their natural genetic-enhancements and luck that allowed Chaos Marines to exist 10 000 years after the Heresy, there would also be about similar numbers of ten thousand years old loyalist marines. There aren't. Individuals such as Logan Grimnar and Dante are seen as exceptionally old for being a thousand years old.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Or the Blood Angel fluff is simply invalid and old.

6E BRB is also invalid and old?

 Crimson wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

It's true. That quote you have explains that just as there may be veterans of the heresy that are a mere thousand year old, equally likely is those who are a hundred thousand.

It is clear from the context that the different way the time flows is the reason for those traitors still being alive.

Read my link again. That guy killed enough Captains to form an altar of skulls, each captain the gene-seed successor of the one before.

That is not something you do in a short time.

This is the guy who was specifically made immortal by the Chaos Gods? And even if he weren't, that doesn't mean he needed ten thousand years. As time flows differently in the Warp-influenced places, it is possible that from his perspective the Heresy was 'merely' a few centuries ago, and he killed a loyalist Captain every few years (exact frequency depending on the size of the altar.)

If anything, that story reinforces the idea that marines are not Immortal. There were dozens or hundreds of 'generations' of the loyalist marines during those 10 000 years. If it was merely their natural genetic-enhancements and luck that allowed Chaos Marines to exist 10 000 years after the Heresy, there would also be about similar numbers of ten thousand years old loyalist marines. There aren't. Individuals such as Logan Grimnar and Dante are seen as exceptionally old for being a thousand years old.

He was made immortal = can't be killed at all.

His squad was immortal in the sense that they can't die of old age- his squad there had followed him since the heresy, one of them even retaining his young looks despite his 'impossible age' for such an appearance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

6E BRB is also invalid and old?

You mean the same 6E BRB that tells us that the Space Marines are the single most important defense force of the Imperium?

Is that cherrypicking I smell?

 kinratha wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Explaining time.
Some of you may have heard the word senescence when people are talking about complex life. Senescence is basically the deterioration of complex life with age. It normally occurs with regards to fertility and physical strength, and certain animals such as lobsters, or bowhead whales do not experience these negative effects, but lobsters still end up dying because they grow to big for their anatomy to handle. And bowhead whales? Who knows how they die.
Putting this in application
Space marine fertility has never showed up in anything and is left vague rendering it useless for our purposes. It's well known that space marines don't lose any physical strength as they age. They may appear older but they're just as strong and fast as their younger brothers. Going by the only two criterion death in regards to age is judged on would mean marines are biologically immortal.

Well first, You have to know a fair share about Biology, not just something you read on Google.

Second,
\
I'd like to imaged this model, was sculpted to show a marine who died of old age. waiting for rescue.,

That's a space hulk model and instead of being insulted can you really claim to know he didn't die of asphyxia because of his damaged helm?
Do you realize given what we know of marine uninterrupted lifespan (without weakening ) he would be sitting there for over 10k years given that salamander and dark raven.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

You're gonna have to find more evidence out of tens of millions of words than a piece of ward fluff.

Why? If even Ward - the Marine fan supreme - can accept that Space Marines are not immortal then you should be able too also.

The Iron Within wrote:Tavarre died of old age in the cruiser infirmary

Tavarre the Techmarine.

The thing about immortality is... how do you prove it? I mean how can you prove 'live forever?' We know they can die, so its not like Perpetuals, but we've never actually seen whether Space Marines die of old age (to my knowledge). The closest might be that one Salamander from the first Nick Kyme novel (the one from the Heresy era) but its hard to judge that one because there are other factors at play. And as far as the fluff goes (esp the HH stuff) there hasn't been a clear consensus on that (some writers confirm it, others say otherwise) so it comes down to whose position you buy more.

This may be something we never get an definitive answer on, and its left up to the individual to decide. Kinda like, you know, everything in 40K.

 kinratha wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Explaining time.
Some of you may have heard the word senescence when people are talking about complex life. Senescence is basically the deterioration of complex life with age. It normally occurs with regards to fertility and physical strength, and certain animals such as lobsters, or bowhead whales do not experience these negative effects, but lobsters still end up dying because they grow to big for their anatomy to handle. And bowhead whales? Who knows how they die.
Putting this in application
Space marine fertility has never showed up in anything and is left vague rendering it useless for our purposes. It's well known that space marines don't lose any physical strength as they age. They may appear older but they're just as strong and fast as their younger brothers. Going by the only two criterion death in regards to age is judged on would mean marines are biologically immortal.

Well first, You have to know a fair share about Biology, not just something you read on Google.

Second,
\

I'd like to imaged this model, was sculpted to show a marine who died of old age. waiting for rescue.,

Which just as easily could have resulted from radiation overdose, asphyxiation, poison, wounds, etc

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
What about Dante?

10,000 years does not immortal make. Very very long and immortal are completely different.

The BA are known for having long lifespans for Space Marines, something to do with sanguinious's constant youth, but this tells you that if they know that BA live longer than regular space marines then all space marines do age and deteriorate.

Dante is also wearing an artifact with about as much of sanguinius's essence as is left in the galaxy, which might enhance his life

Their maximum lifespan seems to vary from geneseed to geneseed, and then probably also varies from stock to stock and procedure to procedure but it might be 400-10,000 depending on those variables

Where's 10'000 come from? Isn't Dante just 1000.

pm713 wrote:
Where's 10'000 come from? Isn't Dante just 1000.

many of the CSM and cypher+the fallen are 10,000. As to how much the warp affects them isn't really known. It might be possible. Even if it was, 10,000 isnt that long compared to forever.

Cypher is usually outside the warp and to my knowledge he has no Chaos boons.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Cypher is usually outside the warp and to my knowledge he has no Chaos boons.

Cypher may not even be a space marine. The Dark Angels had many humans within their ranks that were altered to be as close to Astartes as possible, also I think Luther is still alive.

Luther is alive, yes.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Cypher is usually outside the warp and to my knowledge he has no Chaos boons.

Cypher may not even be a space marine. The Dark Angels had many humans within their ranks that were altered to be as close to Astartes as possible, also I think Luther is still alive.

I guess Cypher might not actually even be human. He could be like a phoneix lord or something, just whoever wears the armor becomes him.

Who knows, I was just pointing out there are some very old folks out there.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
The ten thousand year old Salamander says hello, along with all of this kinsmen that kicked it over the millennia on the same planet.

Technically he starved/atrophied to death. With supplies he might have survived at least physically.

He was still very much alive, just that he stayed guard for so long and well, atrophied away. He did indeed age, as all Astartes do, but they can at least survive for around ten thousand years or so. Plus when in hibernation, Astartes seem to generate infinite energy.

He did suffer from starvation and he did atrophy. He was also trapped in the spaceship with no supplies and eventually his body fused with his armor. He only died when the commander of the Salamanders force had his geneseed harvested.

You know, because the orks were coming and beating up orks is far more important than learning from the only person to have served with your Primarch and could possibly help lead you to him and a new golden age.

In short, I never read another book from that series.

In the novel "Salamander" They find a Salamander from heresey who has been chilling out on a throne for the last 10,000 years. With barely any food.

 Psienesis wrote:
No. Plenty of evidence in both BL and Codices that Space Marines are not biologically immortal.

Is there any actual fluff where a marine outright dies due to advanced age? Like a marine with Alzheimers or a marine whose special organs or regular organs have begun to fail?

 Exergy wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Where's 10'000 come from? Isn't Dante just 1000.

many of the CSM and cypher+the fallen are 10,000. As to how much the warp affects them isn't really known. It might be possible. Even if it was, 10,000 isnt that long compared to forever.

I should have specified. I was asking about Dante specifically.

 Idolator wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
The ten thousand year old Salamander says hello, along with all of this kinsmen that kicked it over the millennia on the same planet.

Technically he starved/atrophied to death. With supplies he might have survived at least physically.

He was still very much alive, just that he stayed guard for so long and well, atrophied away. He did indeed age, as all Astartes do, but they can at least survive for around ten thousand years or so. Plus when in hibernation, Astartes seem to generate infinite energy.

He did suffer from starvation and he did atrophy. He was also trapped in the spaceship with no supplies and eventually his body fused with his armor. He only died when the commander of the Salamanders force had his geneseed harvested.

You know, because the orks were coming and beating up orks is far more important than learning from the only person to have served with your Primarch and could possibly help lead you to him and a new golden age.

In short, I never read another book from that series.

Or you just don't understand Salamanders. They had to mount a defense or battle-brothers were going to die, not to mention that the Salamanders needed to fend off the Orks in order to protect the civilians. Y'know, those people the Salamanders will throw themselves in front of a plasma gun for.

 Exergy wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Where's 10'000 come from? Isn't Dante just 1000.

many of the CSM and cypher+the fallen are 10,000. As to how much the warp affects them isn't really known. It might be possible. Even if it was, 10,000 isnt that long compared to forever.

Biological immortality isn't really immortality. True Immortality cannot occur period.
A marine is going to die of some disease eventually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Where's 10'000 come from? Isn't Dante just 1000.

many of the CSM and cypher+the fallen are 10,000. As to how much the warp affects them isn't really known. It might be possible. Even if it was, 10,000 isnt that long compared to forever.

I should have specified. I was asking about Dante specifically.

Dante isn't special other than skin deep. Literally.
The only difference is his skin doesn't appear to age.
It's clear that space marines muscles don't weaken with age normally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Buttons wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
No. Plenty of evidence in both BL and Codices that Space Marines are not biologically immortal.

Is there any actual fluff where a marine outright dies due to advanced age? Like a marine with Alzheimers or a marine whose special organs or regular organs have begun to fail?

None what so ever.

Buttons wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
No. Plenty of evidence in both BL and Codices that Space Marines are not biologically immortal.

Is there any actual fluff where a marine outright dies due to advanced age? Like a marine with Alzheimers or a marine whose special organs or regular organs have begun to fail?

Died? Other than the Sallie that crumbled to dust after waking up, no. There is, however, plenty of reference to Librarians and other Space Marines reaching ages and levels of infirmity that prevent them from taking an active role in combat operations, and so they "retire" to positions of planning, training, logistics, and rear-echelon command.

There's also the fact that we're told, flat out, that Space Marines have extended life-spans ("three or four times that of a regular human") and that Blood Angels live even longer than that. The fact that we're told that Space Marines *have* a life-span, as well as being told that the Blood Angels live longer than any other Space Marine is enough to categorically state that Space Marines are *not* immortal in any way.

The 10K year old Salamander is surely an anomaly? The guy's been hibernating for as long as he can, effectively spending most of those years in suspended animation. It's impressive but not much different from how dreadnoughts are kept in stasis between battles.

 Psienesis wrote:

Buttons wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
No. Plenty of evidence in both BL and Codices that Space Marines are not biologically immortal.

Is there any actual fluff where a marine outright dies due to advanced age? Like a marine with Alzheimers or a marine whose special organs or regular organs have begun to fail?

Died? Other than the Sallie that crumbled to dust after waking up, no. There is, however, plenty of reference to Librarians and other Space Marines reaching ages and levels of infirmity that prevent them from taking an active role in combat operations, and so they "retire" to positions of planning, training, logistics, and rear-echelon command.

There's also the fact that we're told, flat out, that Space Marines have extended life-spans ("three or four times that of a regular human") and that Blood Angels live even longer than that. The fact that we're told that Space Marines *have* a life-span, as well as being told that the Blood Angels live longer than any other Space Marine is enough to categorically state that Space Marines are *not* immortal in any way.

And then Luther and Cypher take a big dump on that notion.

Neeeeeext

Cypher is an obvious exception, but:
1) "Cypher" is not a name of a person, is the name of a title of office in the 30k Dark Angels. He was in charge of "keeping secrets and traditions". If "a Cypher" dies or retires then another individual takes the title.
2) Chaos. If he is a single person, he has been in and out of the Warp this 10000 years. Perhaps it was 100 years for him. Perhaps it was 100.000 years for him. Perhaps the Chaos Gods keep resurrecting him. Perhaps is not even mortal anymore. Perhaps... well, Chaos.

Luther is not even an Astartes. He is a human touched by Chaos. How long humans can live in the setting? If they are touched by chaos (or similar), nobody knows.


If you take out Chaos, the background says what Psienesis wrote: "Space Marines have extended life-spans, three or four times that of a regular human, and Blood Angels live even longer than that.". Keep in mind that humans live far longer in the setting too, thanks to something called "Juvenat Processes", that we are not told exactly what they are.

I don't particularly care enough to take a side in the argument but I do recall Arik Taranis, a thunder warrior from the Outcast Dead, trying to replicate astartes physiology to increase his life span. I believe there's roughly a thousand years between the unification wars of terra and the heresy so he was already quite old. I don't recall exactly but I think he was trying to get an astartes geneseed to work with his own body to stop/slow his aging.

 da001 wrote:
Cypher is an obvious exception, but:
1) "Cypher" is not a name of a person, is the name of a title of office in the 30k Dark Angels. He was in charge of "keeping secrets and traditions". If "a Cypher" dies or retires then another individual takes the title.
2) Chaos. If he is a single person, he has been in and out of the Warp this 10000 years. Perhaps it was 100 years for him. Perhaps it was 100.000 years for him. Perhaps the Chaos Gods keep resurrecting him. Perhaps is not even mortal anymore. Perhaps... well, Chaos.

Luther is not even an Astartes. He is a human touched by Chaos. How long humans can live in the setting? If they are touched by chaos (or similar), nobody knows.


If you take out Chaos, the background says what Psienesis wrote: "Space Marines have extended life-spans, three or four times that of a regular human, and Blood Angels live even longer than that.". Keep in mind that humans live far longer in the setting too, thanks to something called "Juvenat Processes", that we are not told exactly what they are.

And then you still have the ten thousand year old Salamander and the ten thousand Dark Angel, although I haven't a clue who that was.

 Wyzilla wrote:
(...)
And then you still have the ten thousand year old Salamander and the ten thousand Dark Angel, although I haven't a clue who that was.

Still, it does not affect the final result.

The OP is asking "are Space Marines biologically immortal?" He is not asking for a specific marine, he is asking if all marines, just by being marines, are immortal. We are told they are not. They live far longer than humans (who in turn live far longer than nowadays humans), and Blood Angels are reknown to last longer. But they get old and retire, and eventually die.

A question for you: Are normal humans biologically immortal in the setting?
In my opinion, they are not. Sure, Luther and Kor Phaeron are still around. And Luther has been out of the Eye for 10000 years. He is that old. Chaos has this effect on living things, which is just fitting, since the Warp is the Afterlife. And then you have Perpetuals.

That doesn´t mean humans are immortal. They are just exceptions. Special snowflakes.
The same reasoning applies to marines.

This is not a "contradiction" in the fluff. All marines and humans age and die, except for a few exceptions, and these exceptions are always explained... or left as a mystery

 da001 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
(...)
And then you still have the ten thousand year old Salamander and the ten thousand Dark Angel, although I haven't a clue who that was.

Still, it does not affect the final result.

The OP is asking "are Space Marines biologically immortal?" He is not asking for a specific marine, he is asking if all marines, just by being marines, are immortal. We are told they are not. They live far longer than humans (who in turn live far longer than nowadays humans), and Blood Angels are reknown to last longer. But they get old and retire, and eventually die.

A question for you: Are normal humans biologically immortal in the setting?
In my opinion, they are not. Sure, Luther and Kor Phaeron are still around. And Luther has been out of the Eye for 10000 years. He is that old. Chaos has this effect on living things, which is just fitting, since the Warp is the Afterlife. And then you have Perpetuals.

That doesn´t mean humans are immortal. They are just exceptions. Special snowflakes.
The same reasoning applies to marines.

This is not a "contradiction" in the fluff. All marines and humans age and die, except for a few exceptions, and these exceptions are always explained... or left as a mystery

Except all things simply point to the Salamander being immortal by his gene seed, which was even pointed out in the book by the Astartes being surprised, but admitting they've never seen one die of old age. No chaos, no warp taint, just sat in a room for several millennia with barely any food without moving (which alone would kill most people if they simply sat still for even just a couple years). Plus coupled with all Astartes being technically biologically immortal due to the ability to enter an infinite period of time in a comatose state in which they seem to produce free energy.

Normal humans aren't biologically immortal. The longest lived people I can recall are all AdMech (and quite probably insane, based on 3rd edition fluff, or virtual robots, like the one Coggie in Dark Apostle.) One Inquisitor in the old Inquisitor RPG stuff (Thorian) lived nearly 900 years, I think, but that was an anomaly, and living past a couple hundred years seems unusual (and even then restricted to those with wealth and/or connections.)

But Juvenat/rejuv stuff isn't really the same as what gives Space Marines their extended lifespans (or immortality), and that's kinda it. We don't really know enough about Space Marine physiology and stuff from the fluff to make definite conclusions about whether they are or aren't immortal. And what we do know is largely speculative or open to debate.

And to add another wrinkle to the debate: It can even be that Space Marines are 'technically' unaging (in the sense they never suffer from the physical and mental ill effects of old age no matter how long they live), but that does not mean such 'immortality' is guaranteed to be forever, for everyone. Only a small percentage of humanity can actually become Space Marines and an even smaller percentage actually survive the implantation process, and it stands to reason that even then, the degree to which the body 'assimilates' the implants can vary (which may in fact be why some Marines are basically generic whilst others become truly extraordinary in a physical, mental, or even psychic sense.) I remember Talos having that rejection thing in Void Stalker, as I recall, and we know Space Marines still need to be monitored throughout their lives by Apothecaries even AFTER being implanted (not to mention that gene seed can undergo mutation for various reasons, which is why they are so big on testing it for purity) So basically you have alot of 'ifs' but not alot of certanties, and again I suspect that's deliberate,

Gravius from Salamanders isn't a good example for 'immortality' either, given that a.) many of the Salamanders in that same novel expressed shock at a Space Marine living that long, and b.) they flat out acknowledged that they don't know how/why he lasted that long - it could be the warp or it could have been his biology. And even in the caes of the latter there's a number of factors - was he constantly awake, in suspended animation, or what? There's also the fact he was basically a shadow of his former self by that time (he did not seem remotely capable of fighting.) so even if Space Marines could theoretically live 10,000 years that still can't be used as proof of immortality, because Gravius is clearly not the same as he was thousands of years ago. It would in fact probably indicate that Space Marines do face a period of decline at some point in that long lifespan, but because so many of them die before then none ever reaches it (which again is also mentioned in Salamander.)

I don't know of any Dark Angels living 10,000 years, apart from the Fallen (warp stuff) or the one from Barrington J Bayley's Eye of Terror novel (Assuming that novel is in fact not a heretic tome and we havne't been told.. most novels of that era have pretty much been cast out like Farseer and Space Marine, after all..) and not only was that Space Marine inactive for all ten thousand years (sus-an state, in addition to being in space being attributed to his long term survival) there is also the fact the warp is still involved (at multiple points he is described as being guided/drawn to the Eye of Terror, and if there is active influences pushing him there there's no way to say how that messed with timeframes relative to him, personally.) so in any event its still not a useful barometer (since we only know he can live 10,000 years, and basically cryogenically frozen in space at that.)

 Wyzilla wrote:
(...)
Except all things simply point to the Salamander being immortal by his gene seed, which was even pointed out in the book by the Astartes being surprised, but admitting they've never seen one die of old age. No chaos, no warp taint, just sat in a room for several millennia with barely any food without moving (which alone would kill most people if they simply sat still for even just a couple years). Plus coupled with all Astartes being technically biologically immortal due to the ability to enter an infinite period of time in a comatose state in which they seem to produce free energy.

Well....

I don´t know. I haven´t read the book, not a fan of Kyme. But I still don´t see true contradictions between marines eventually aging and exceptions. I mean, I think there must be an explanation. It is not expected, it doesn´t apply to the average marine in average conditions.

The use of the Sus-an Membrane could partly explain that specific case: All Astartes have this implant.

I will add: I remember a Dark Angel from the novel Eye of Terror activating the Sus-an Membrane when lost in space after a rather cool fight against a World Eater, and waking up 10000 years later in mint condition.

That´s not "not aging", it is a special power that allows you to enter a suspended animation state. They cannot move, they cannot think, they are not truly "alive". I don´t know, perhaps the Salamander activated that power most marines have.

In regards to the Salamander

"The warp storms could have affected the passage of time. But it's also entirely possible that this Salamander is simply many years old, longevity being a benefit of our slow metabolic rate. Such a thing has never been tested, given that most of our number invariably meet their end in war or, if death is not forthcoming and age arrives first, by wandering out into the Scorian Plain or setting sail on the Acerbian Sea to find peace. It is the way of the Promethean Creed."

First we don't actually know how much time has passed, second it says that old age can catch a Salamander, causing them to walk into the snow. Lastly he's involved in the whole magic tome of fire business, so who knows how that could effect his life.

Other Loyal Marines who survived 10k years without a Dread, Epimetheus and Abdaziel Magron, did so only by way of Sus-an Membrane which essentially reduces their energy consumption to zero.

"Of all the implanted organs which made a Space Marine more than a man, the sus-an organ was perhaps the least used, but he used it now. One by one it closed down all his biological and psychic functions. His heart slowed, then stopped. His metabolism reduced itself to zero. All his muscles became quiescent. His nerve and brain cells ceased firing. His whole body was blanketed with an electric field to kill any bacteria which might still be alive, and then that field was switched off."

 TheCustomLime wrote:

mstockwe87 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Aging is possibly a combination of the decay of DNA as copies are made over time and the effects of time itself on marines. Since marines mostly use human DNA (At least they don't mention fixing the DNA replication decay issue) they would suffer the from the same thing. Being intended for reproduction has nothing to do with it. It's probable that their sheer durability prevents them deteriorating too quickly.

in the far future, they likely have a resolution for telomerase degrading telomeres (the DNA decay you speak of).

Their solution isn't to treat the cause but rather the effects. It's not specified what rejuvenant treatments are but it seems to use children as a raw material. If I had to guess... they replace the decayed telomeres with "Fresh" ones. So, this tells me that they do not have a cure for this degradation which would mean that Space Marines aren't immortal by themselves. Blood Angels are actually noted for their long life which indicates that Marines do age.

Speaking of Juvenat - Don't Inquisitors tend to take them?

It would explain how you can get 200+ years on ol' Inky and have him still exterminate planet's worth of aliens/daemons/heretics.

except for a few cases SM aren't immortal, even if some of them don't age at all, their body chemistry keep deteriorating, every SM need some periodic medical attention, this is mostly done throught the PA integrated systems, but eventually all marines who survive VEEEERY long will suffer a catastrophic organ failure

about old marines, i read on one of Ragnar's novel that one of their archivitst was a OOOOOLD battle-brother, too ancient to go in battle, but it should be noted that SW tend to age worse than other chapters, the exact opposite of the Angels

It would explain how you can get 200+ years on ol' Inky and have him still exterminate planet's worth of aliens/daemons/heretics.

Rejuve treatments are available to anyone in the Imperium who can afford them, which definitely includes any Inquisitor. They can live for several centuries through these means.

 Psienesis wrote:

It would explain how you can get 200+ years on ol' Inky and have him still exterminate planet's worth of aliens/daemons/heretics.

Rejuve treatments are available to anyone in the Imperium who can afford them, which definitely includes any Inquisitor. They can live for several centuries through these means.

IIRC in Eisenhorn the inquisitor is at one point said to be about 350 years old and expected to live maybe as long again with continued rejuvenat treatments and some good luck. And he's not slowed down at all, he's just as strong and fast as he was in his youth but 300+ years more experienced.

Yup. He's edging on a thousand years old in Pariah.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

It would explain how you can get 200+ years on ol' Inky and have him still exterminate planet's worth of aliens/daemons/heretics.

Rejuve treatments are available to anyone in the Imperium who can afford them, which definitely includes any Inquisitor. They can live for several centuries through these means.

IIRC in Eisenhorn the inquisitor is at one point said to be about 350 years old and expected to live maybe as long again with continued rejuvenat treatments and some good luck. And he's not slowed down at all, he's just as strong and fast as he was in his youth but 300+ years more experienced.

You know it's the future, when 50 years old is considered "youth".

In the HH book 1 (betrayal) there is a line about how space marines are likely functionally immortal.

Krantz86 wrote:
should be noted that SW tend to age worse than other chapters, the exact opposite of the Angels

Source?

The long and short of it is simply that if Space marines were immortal the Blood Angels wouldn't be noted as being exceedingly long-loved Space Marines.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
The long and short of it is simply that if Space marines were immortal the Blood Angels wouldn't be noted as being exceedingly long-loved Space Marines.

But there's no recorded instance of an Astartes dying from old age, so it's a false observation. Just that Blood Angels are fairly lucky and don't get whacked by their third or fourth century of service.

But being immortal is moot if marines that are between 500-1000 years old are seen as uniquely old, save for a bare handful of Black Library occurrences, when the views on most Black Library stuff being anywhere near canon changes daily.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
But being immortal is moot if marines that are between 500-1000 years old are seen as uniquely old, save for a bare handful of Black Library occurrences, when the views on most Black Library stuff being anywhere near canon changes daily.

Except they're seen as old because everyone else has been shot, bisected, impaled, decapitated, etc by that age. They're not old because they've lived that long, they're considered old because they've survived that long.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
But being immortal is moot if marines that are between 500-1000 years old are seen as uniquely old, save for a bare handful of Black Library occurrences, when the views on most Black Library stuff being anywhere near canon changes daily.

It gets very contradictory very fast when BA are supposedly long-lived and yet no SM has ever died of old age.

Wyzilla's interpretation seems most plausible.

 Wyzilla wrote:

But there's no recorded instance of an Astartes dying from old age, so it's a false observation.

Is there many recorded instances of anyone dying in the old age in the fluff?

Just that Blood Angels are fairly lucky and don't get whacked by their third or fourth century of service.

Except that's not it:
"The Blood Angels are amongst the longest-lived of all of the Space Marine Chapters, their gene-seed granting a vastly increased lifespan on all who possess it. It is not uncommon, therefore, for a Blood Angel to live for a millennium or more, if death in battle or the Red Thirst does not claim him first."

 Crimson wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

But there's no recorded instance of an Astartes dying from old age, so it's a false observation.

Is there many recorded instances of anyone dying in the old age in the fluff?

Just that Blood Angels are fairly lucky and don't get whacked by their third or fourth century of service.

Except that's not it:
"The Blood Angels are amongst the longest-lived of all of the Space Marine Chapters, their gene-seed granting a vastly increased lifespan on all who possess it. It is not uncommon, therefore, for a Blood Angel to live for a millennium or more, if death in battle or the Red Thirst does not claim him first."

Which is not evidence of anything unless there are actual multiple (if not numerous) instances of Astartes dying from old age. Otherwise it's a worthless bit of a fluff that's completely meaningless as there is no actual data behind it.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Which is not evidence of anything unless there are actual multiple (if not numerous) instances of Astartes dying from old age. Otherwise it's a worthless bit of a fluff that's completely meaningless as there is no actual data behind it.

That is just stupid, the quote is perfectly clear and tells us that marines have finite lifespans. There is no other sane way to interpret it. What you'r saying is like claiming that marines do not defecate, because while the fluff tells us that their armours have waste recycling mechanism, it doesn't ever describe them pooping.

 Crimson wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Which is not evidence of anything unless there are actual multiple (if not numerous) instances of Astartes dying from old age. Otherwise it's a worthless bit of a fluff that's completely meaningless as there is no actual data behind it.

That is just stupid, the quote is perfectly clear and tells us that marines have finite lifespans. There is no other sane way to interpret it. What you'r saying is like claiming that marines do not defecate, because while the fluff tells us that their armours have waste recycling mechanism, it doesn't ever describe them pooping.

Except it provides no evidence behind it, and we know of no astartes who have died of old age. We have several examples of Astartes living far beyond two thousand years, with one even remaining inert while doing so, yet survived ten thousand years. The Blood Angels codex meanwhile states that Blood Angels are the longest lived Astartes, yet provides no relevant events to back this up with other astartes dying of old age, or Blood Angels dying of old age at a later point. Meanwhile, multiple events point to Astartes at least being ridiculously long-lived beyond the 5k mark, thus making it the only correct stance as it has actual evidence. The Blood Angels codex meanwhile lacks evidence, and to our knowledge no Astartes has ever died of old age, with them even stating so in-universe.

Also, your argument is simply a false equivalence as we know basic biological features are in place. Just that we also have a complete lack of evidence pointing to any astartes having died of old age, and with several of their number hilariously exceeding the lifespan of the Blood Angels. Thus the only conclusion is that the Blood Angels Codex is incorrect, due to a complete lack of any evidence supporting it. We however do know that the maximum astartes lifespan to our knowledge is around the 10k mark, if not possibly greater.

Yay! 40k fluff is self-contradictory again!
Time to believe whatever version you want.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Yay! 40k fluff is self-contradictory again!
Time to believe whatever version you want.

Except one part has absolutely nothing supporting it besides its own word.

 Wyzilla wrote:
But there's no recorded instance of an Astartes dying from old age, so it's a false observation.

There's a whole lot of things lacking from the fluff... 40K is after all "Eternal War", not "dying peacefully in my bed" or "buying food at the mall".

Spetulhu wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
But there's no recorded instance of an Astartes dying from old age, so it's a false observation.

There's a whole lot of things lacking from the fluff... 40K is after all "Eternal War", not "dying peacefully in my bed" or "buying food at the mall".

That isn't the point. The point is that one side has evidence behind it, the other has absolutely nothing as space marines either die in combat or from a lack of energy.

There is several clear quotes that attest limited lifespan of the marines. Then there are two cases of marines that have lived peculiarly old in unclear circumstances from BL novels. Because we have several times clearly told that marines are not immortal, those cases must be outliers, achieved either by sus-a-membrane or some other circumstance we are not aware of (or just BL authors contradicting the fluff as they often do.)

 Crimson wrote:
There is several clear quotes that attest limited lifespan of the marines. Then there are two cases of marines that have lived peculiarly old in unclear circumstances from BL novels. Because we have several times clearly told that marines are not immortal, those cases must be outliers, achieved either by sus-a-membrane or some other circumstance we are not aware of (or just BL authors contradicting the fluff as they often do.)

It is impossible that the mentions of limited Marine lifespans are anything more than speculation when they have never been proven, and there are implications that the contrary is true.

 Ashiraya wrote:

It is impossible that the mentions of limited Marine lifespans are anything more than speculation when they have never been proven, and there are implications that the contrary is true.

I don't think so. It has been stated matter of factly in several places. Furthermore, we know that Marines indeed get weaker when they're really old (and logical conclusion of that is death) and are often retired from active duty to training duties. Now, if Marines indeed were immortal, many of those retired Marines would live forever, as they would no longer be killed in the battle. This is obviously not the case, no such Marines are ever mentioned, Chaplain Cassius is the oldest living Ultramarine, being about 400.

Again the dark Angel in pandorax was 10,000 years old, no warp, no stasis, just a dude in his armour sleeping.

The age thing is solid in that book there is no way around it, the better question for it would be...why didn't he starve to death.

If it's from a Black Library book it's more often or not going to end up as being false (it's canon, just not necessarily true in canon) so you can regard anything from it as not true if something else contradicts it.

Blood Angels are noted as unusually long lived for marines. They also have been subject to casualties and massive loss in numbers (Space hulk) so it isn't just to do with them being 'lucky' and surviving in battle more on average.

Case closed.

 Daba wrote:
If it's from a Black Library book it's more often or not going to end up as being false (it's canon, just not necessarily true in canon) so you can regard anything from it as not true if something else contradicts it.

Blood Angels are noted as unusually long lived for marines. They also have been subject to casualties and massive loss in numbers (Space hulk) so it isn't just to do with them being 'lucky' and surviving in battle more on average.

Case closed.

It's part of codex fluff too, black legion attacked pandorax and abbadon left with a powerful psyker, this was the 10k year old fella, so it's as official as you get... For gw anyway

 Formosa wrote:
Again the dark Angel in pandorax was 10,000 years old, no warp, no stasis, just a dude in his armour sleeping.

The age thing is solid in that book there is no way around it, the better question for it would be...why didn't he starve to death.

Sounds like sus-an membrane working really well. That has already been accepted as a possible caveat.

 Daba wrote:
If it's from a Black Library book it's more often or not going to end up as being false (it's canon, just not necessarily true in canon) so you can regard anything from it as not true if something else contradicts it.

Blood Angels are noted as unusually long lived for marines. They also have been subject to casualties and massive loss in numbers (Space hulk) so it isn't just to do with them being 'lucky' and surviving in battle more on average.

Case closed.

That is literally nothing but your own opinion, which for your information is not the same as fact.

Case most certainly not closed.

BL is just as canon as the codices are. This is especially of consideration when BL makes more sense... (That is, BL not contradicting itself by saying no Marines ever die of age and then saying BA die from age later than others...)

They are as canon, but not necessarily true (as admitted by them) so rulebooks take precedence still as they don't have that caveat.

Is there actually any narrative benefit to them being biologically immortal apart from undermining the Blood Angels, and other long-lived races?

 Daba wrote:
They are as canon, but not necessarily true (as admitted by them) so rulebooks take precedence still as they don't have that caveat.

Is there actually any narrative benefit to them being biologically immortal apart from undermining the Blood Angels, and other long-lived races?

I am not here to argue narrative benefit as you can write good stories either way. If BA are so reliant on their long-livedness which would be irrelevant anyway since no SM dies of age, then yea...

All 40K lore could represent in-universe biased material. The Black Legion short story could. As could C:BA.

BL is canon, but highly inconsistent. BL books even contradict each other all the time. Abnett for example has admitted winging it if he feels like it. And do I need to mention C.S Goto? This is common with BL authors, and it may sometimes lead to better stories, but makes the books bad background sources. Personally I trust studio fluff any day, they at least seem to have some sort of consistency policy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Question to those who think marines are immortal: do you actually assume that loyalist chapters have bunch of thousands of years old guys (some of which could even remember the Heresy) hanging around, but they just are never mentioned?

 Crimson wrote:
BL is canon, but highly inconsistent. BL books even contradict each other all the time. Abnett for example has admitted winging it if he feels like it. And do I need to mention C.S Goto? This is common with BL authors, and it may sometimes lead to better stories, but makes the books bad background sources. Personally I trust studio fluff any day, they at least seem to have some sort of consistency policy.

Yep. Gotta love this studio fluff.

Like the 6th ed BRB that explicitly states the SM is the foremost defense force of the Imperium. How many of you would agree to that?

 Crimson wrote:
Question to those who think marines are immortal: do you actually assume that loyalist chapters have bunch of thousands of years old guys (some of which could even remember the Heresy) hanging around, but they just are never mentioned?

No, they died in battle before they could reach that age. Dante is still oldest active Imperial Space Marine, presumably because he is good at staying alive in battle, one way or another.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Yep. Gotta love this studio fluff.

Like the 6th ed BRB that explicitly states the SM is the foremost defense force of the Imperium. How many of you would agree to that?

Well, they certainly are most well known.

No, they died in battle before they could reach that age. Dante is still oldest active Imperial Space Marine, presumably because he is good at staying alive in battle, one way or another.

All of them just died in combat? Even those retired to training or administrative duties? Isn't that, you know, massively unlikely?

 Daba wrote:
If it's from a Black Library book it's more often or not going to end up as being false (it's canon, just not necessarily true in canon) so you can regard anything from it as not true if something else contradicts it.

Blood Angels are noted as unusually long lived for marines. They also have been subject to casualties and massive loss in numbers (Space hulk) so it isn't just to do with them being 'lucky' and surviving in battle more on average.

Case closed.

No one is any more right in 40k than anyone else.

A second grader's fanfic where his self insert crotch kicks Khorne to death is as canonical as anything written by GW.

To the marines hanging around the chapter for thousands of years.

The trainers of the neophytes still go to combat, they are the scout sergeants, the master of the tenth company still goes to combat too, so they will of course die as normal.

Any marine too damaged will be given the emperor's mercy or be put into a dreadnought, so that accounts for the wounded or infirm marines.

Remeber legs, arms, skulls, basically almost any part of the body (not head, with the exception to failsafe devices in the head to keep it alive after decapitation) that gets cut off can be replaced with bionics, internal organs can be vat grown (as shown in several books) or cultivated from failed iniates that have died (assumption on my behalf).

But still marines will die in spite of all this.

10k dark Angel: I agree it's possible the sus an could possibly have helped, but not with food, this dude must have had to eat every few weeks at least (possibly longer as a space marine) that would still make him several thousand years older than the oldest living marines currently.

Now I don't think marines are immortal, just incredibly long lived to be immortal by human standards.

Marine in sus-an sleep doesn't need to eat.

 Crimson wrote:
Marine in sus-an sleep doesn't need to eat.

Sis-an doesn't stop physics and loss of body mass due to starvation in any fluff that I have read, the body would eventually lose all fat reserves and start eating muscle mass tosurvive, an emaciated space marine isn't very heroic

 Formosa wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Marine in sus-an sleep doesn't need to eat.

Sis-an doesn't stop physics and loss of body mass due to starvation in any fluff that I have read, the body would eventually lose all fat reserves and start eating muscle mass tosurvive, an emaciated space marine isn't very heroic

Well, that would realistically happen... but this is 40K we're talking about.

 Crimson wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

It is impossible that the mentions of limited Marine lifespans are anything more than speculation when they have never been proven, and there are implications that the contrary is true.

I don't think so. It has been stated matter of factly in several places. Furthermore, we know that Marines indeed get weaker when they're really old (and logical conclusion of that is death) and are often retired from active duty to training duties. Now, if Marines indeed were immortal, many of those retired Marines would live forever, as they would no longer be killed in the battle. This is obviously not the case, no such Marines are ever mentioned, Chaplain Cassius is the oldest living Ultramarine, being about 400.

Just it being stated means nothing unless there is actual evidence behind it. As there is none, the entire opinion is false.

Also, then there's the lulzy bit of the sus-an membrane being able to produce infinite energy, as apparently space marines can produce free energy.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Just it being stated means nothing unless there is actual evidence behind it. As there is none, the entire opinion is false.

This stance is patently bizarre. It is fictional setting and if creators of that setting state that the things are certain way then they're that way.

Also, then there's the lulzy bit of the sus-an membrane being able to produce infinite energy, as apparently space marines can produce free energy.

No, they just don't spend much energy whilst they hibernate. I do not know the circumstances in the book, so I cannot comment specifics. Sleep was mentioned. (I agree that 10 000 years of hibernation sounds absurd.)

 Crimson wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Just it being stated means nothing unless there is actual evidence behind it. As there is none, the entire opinion is false.

This stance is patently bizarre. It is fictional setting and if creators of that setting state that the things are certain way then they're that way.

Also, then there's the lulzy bit of the sus-an membrane being able to produce infinite energy, as apparently space marines can produce free energy.

No, they just don't spend much energy whilst they hibernate. I do not know the circumstances in the book, so I cannot comment specifics. Sleep was mentioned. (I agree that 10 000 years of hibernation sounds absurd.)

No, it's a basic stance considering that it's blatantly false as there are numerous exceptions to it, and we have yet to see a space marine keel over from old age. Unless you can point to multiple space marines who died of old age, the position has absolutely no evidence compared to the multiple sources that blatantly contradict it and put some very large holes in its hull.

And no, it doesn't matter how they hibernate, nothing can survive for that long without burning away all of its energy stores. Either the sus-an membrane generates free energy (impossible), or it causes the astartes body to operate at a hundred percent efficiency in order to survive for that long (which, surprise, is also impossible).

 Wyzilla wrote:

No, it's a basic stance considering that it's blatantly false as there are numerous exceptions to it, and we have yet to see a space marine keel over from old age. Unless you can point to multiple space marines who died of old age, the position has absolutely no evidence compared to the multiple sources that blatantly contradict it and put some very large holes in its hull.

By 'numerous' you mean few dubious examples from BL. That there are exeptions to general rule, does not mean that a general rule does not exist, merely that there are unusual instances when the general rule has been broken (or it is a mistake.) Your refusal to believe what the creators of the setting tell you is laughable. Why the hell you think they write those things in the fluff?

And no, it doesn't matter how they hibernate, nothing can survive for that long without burning away all of its energy stores. Either the sus-an membrane generates free energy (impossible), or it causes the astartes body to operate at a hundred percent efficiency in order to survive for that long (which, surprise, is also impossible).

Do you understand what fiction means? In reality FTL travel is also impossible.

 Crimson wrote:

And no, it doesn't matter how they hibernate, nothing can survive for that long without burning away all of its energy stores. Either the sus-an membrane generates free energy (impossible), or it causes the astartes body to operate at a hundred percent efficiency in order to survive for that long (which, surprise, is also impossible).

Do you understand what fiction means? In reality FTL travel is also impossible.

Not that I'm one to make the debate, as I'm not that knowledgable about it, but FTL is debated as a possibility in the science community - there is much evidence against it, but there may be possibilities or workarounds. And our understanding of physics is incomplete, and some sections may be entirely wrong.

 Selym wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

And no, it doesn't matter how they hibernate, nothing can survive for that long without burning away all of its energy stores. Either the sus-an membrane generates free energy (impossible), or it causes the astartes body to operate at a hundred percent efficiency in order to survive for that long (which, surprise, is also impossible).

Do you understand what fiction means? In reality FTL travel is also impossible.

Not that I'm one to make the debate, as I'm not that knowledgable about it, but FTL is debated as a possibility in the science community - there is much evidence against it, but there may be possibilities or workarounds. And our understanding of physics is incomplete, and some sections may be entirely wrong.

Right. But same could be said about our knowledge of the viability of non-energy-consuming coma.

 Crimson wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

No, it's a basic stance considering that it's blatantly false as there are numerous exceptions to it, and we have yet to see a space marine keel over from old age. Unless you can point to multiple space marines who died of old age, the position has absolutely no evidence compared to the multiple sources that blatantly contradict it and put some very large holes in its hull.

By 'numerous' you mean few dubious examples from BL. That there are exeptions to general rule, does not mean that a general rule does not exist, merely that there are unusual instances when the general rule has been broken (or it is a mistake.) Your refusal to believe what the creators of the setting tell you is laughable. Why the hell you think they write those things in the fluff?

And no, it doesn't matter how they hibernate, nothing can survive for that long without burning away all of its energy stores. Either the sus-an membrane generates free energy (impossible), or it causes the astartes body to operate at a hundred percent efficiency in order to survive for that long (which, surprise, is also impossible).

Do you understand what fiction means? In reality FTL travel is also impossible.

For one, those instances were not dubious, and secondly, the Black Library occurs with in-universe events, there were indeed around three astartes who lived far beyond the thousand year mark, up to the ten thousand mark, with one kicking it due to atrophy. Not only did these happen, they directly contradict the Blood Angels fluff and destroy any possible standing it has. And no, I'm not disagreeing with what the creators told us, considering those same people licensed, endorsed, and advertised the Black Library material- there is no difference between a Codex and a Black Library novel (with the BL actually being far, faaaar better, considering they're a true window into the universe compared to a poor and vague description like the Codices). The general rule is only a rule if it actually has evidence to support it. Considering that space marines at least being able to survive for ten thousand years has more supporting evidence than space marines only living a couple centuries, the Blood Angel fluff is flawed and unsupported. Unless you can actually bring up several (three or more) instances of space marines dying from old age, your stance has absolutely no evidence behind it besides flat statements with no events to actually support them (space marines dying from old age).

And even if it's fiction, this does not mean that suddenly physics goes off and puts a slug in its brain. Space Marines somehow generate free energy or reach 100% energy efficiency while in a sus-an coma. So they completely break science by simply existing, or there's some very strange technobbable in their organs.

Of course they aren't.

They might be ageless (debatable, the lore goes either way), but they aren't immortal.

May not age fast but they live brutal lives, injury, combat and such take there toll too.

They may live very long time if a mere scribe. But there warriors, they tend to die in combat or take injury and damage.

That there are some marines that have lived absurdly long, is only proof that those specific marines (for some reason) lived that long. They are anomalities. This does not invalidate the several times stated general rule.
As for sus-an hibernation, in fiction it can be more effective than would 'realistically' be possible. Things that could not realistically happen happen in fiction all the time. And idea that a biological creature of complexity of a human could live for 10 000 years is highly implausible as well.

 Crimson wrote:
That there are some marines that have lived absurdly long, is only proof that those specific marines (for some reason) lived that long. They are anomalities. This does not invalidate the several times stated general rule.
As for sus-an hibernation, in fiction it can be more effective than would 'realistically' be possible. Things that could not realistically happen happen in fiction all the time. And idea that a biological creature of complexity of a human could live for 10 000 years is highly implausible as well.

It is possible, however, in the 40k universe that they consorted with daemons (possibly due to latent psychic powers, or maybe their soul is bright enough for tzeentch to play with) and bargained for immortality. The warp is a fickle master, however, and can then just dump them into death for no reason at a later date.

And yes, that makes Dante a heretic in my headcannon.

 Crimson wrote:
That there are some marines that have lived absurdly long, is only proof that those specific marines (for some reason) lived that long. They are anomalities. This does not invalidate the several times stated general rule.
As for sus-an hibernation, in fiction it can be more effective than would 'realistically' be possible. Things that could not realistically happen happen in fiction all the time. And idea that a biological creature of complexity of a human could live for 10 000 years is highly implausible as well.

Except the stated rule has absolutely zero evidence behind it. Meanwhile, we've known multiple individuals to survive for thousands of years. While they might not be immortal, their lifespan at the very least extends for ten thousand years, if not longer, considering all known examples point to such.

Also, it's completely possible to engineer a human to be biologically immortal. The problem is that immortality does not exempt one from needing energy and exercise. Hence how space marines activating their sus-an membrane seem to either be producing free energy or operate at a 100% efficiency and lose no energy.

Still a fact that aside from the fiction where marines with Special Snowflake Syndrome are alive since the Heresy, Dante has always been the oldest living Marine, with Bjorn the Fell-Handed coming in as the oldest dreadnought. So other than that, every marine in the fiction is not much older than many other characters in the fiction who have had rejuvenation treatments- some even far older than "old" marines.

So the point is completely moot. Being immortal is a pointless fact if lots of other people who are not immortal are just as old as you.

According to the Black Library fluff I have heard that Terminators can back-flip, too.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Except the stated rule has absolutely zero evidence behind it.

It is a statement of fact, it needs no more evidence than a statement that a codex chapter is (about) thousand marines strong or a statement that the Emperor had a golden armour. When the writers tell us things about the setting, they mean it.

The problem is that immortality does not exempt one from needing energy and exercise. Hence how space marines activating their sus-an membrane seem to either be producing free energy or operate at a 100% efficiency and lose no energy.

They just spent no (or a negligible amount) of energy. It is not like they are doing much; it is self induced stasis. Scientist have managed to successfully plant seed that have been tens of thousands of years old, this mean that living cells have remained viable all that time. Now saying that human could be modified to do the same is perhaps silly, but not more so than saying that a human could be modified to live 10 000 years.

Personally, I imagine that if Space Marines really were biologically ageless, we'd have a few non-Chaos ones older than Dante still running around somewhere. Especially among the Grey Knights (Emperor's Gift) and as mentioned in this thread, certain chapters, who actually DO have a retirement system. Once a Space Marine in those chapters retires to the Librarium, you'd think a few of them would have lasted longer than Dante by now.

The Horus Heresy era marines think Space Marines might be immortal, but those noobs were only around for a century at most. What the hell do they know about Space Marine aging in that short a time frame?

TiamatRoar wrote:
Personally, I imagine that if Space Marines really were biologically ageless, we'd have a few non-Chaos ones older than Dante still running around somewhere. Especially among the Grey Knights (Emperor's Gift) and as mentioned in this thread, certain chapters, who actually DO have a retirement system. Once a Space Marine in those chapters retires to the Librarium, you'd think a few of them would have lasted longer than Dante by now.

Unlikely. Also, "retiring" to the Librarium doesn't mean they are permanently off any combat duty.

They'll come out and fight every now and then. And as the years go by the probability of them dying in combat approaches 1, this applies to any marine.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Especially among the Grey Knights

Huh? The guys that fight daemons on a regular basis? I'd imagine their chance of retiring is even slimmer than among "normal" marines if anything.

Well, they do have 1 confirmed immortal Marine in their number at the very least

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, they do have 1 confirmed immortal Marine in their number at the very least

Only because he's embraced Slaanesh

It comes down to the writer. Different writers have different stances on it. Abnett writes them as biologically immortal, Aaron Dembski-Bowden does not.

tgjensen wrote:
It comes down to the writer. Different writers have different stances on it. Abnett writes them as biologically immortal, Aaron Dembski-Bowden does not.

I would like to see the quote about Abnett. I don´t think I have ever find a source stating marines (all marines, no chaos involved, no sus-an) are immortal. A few may, in extraordinary circumstances, last thousands of years. But most do not. The provided quote clearly states ADB think the same, but I doubt Abnett, writer of Horus Rising (a book that included an "old" marine called Iacton Qruze), thinks otherwise.

By the way, people do not die of "Age". Aging means becoming weaker and weaker, until something else (a sickness, a bullet) kills you. Marines age and retire. So they get weaker and weaker and weaker. We know they retire of combat after a while (when they are no longer fit for it), yet we have not 2000 year old veterans around in every chapter, so I assume they die. Perhaps they are killed of whent they are unable to move, or remember their own name.

And, again, the "they have a long life-span" line clearly means they die.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
What about Dante?

Long fang from the space wolves pre-heresy gak!

Spetulhu wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
Especially among the Grey Knights

Huh? The guys that fight daemons on a regular basis? I'd imagine their chance of retiring is even slimmer than among "normal" marines if anything.

And yet they do have a retirement position (Prognosticars). At least according to the Emperor's Gift (apparently they're mentioned in the 5th ed Codex too though). Although in my own opinion, it kind of makes sense. Grey Knights rely on a LOT of forbidden knowledge that can't be allowed to leak out elsewhere, so if anything, out of all the Space Marine chapters, they'd need experienced knowledgeable wise "not on the field getting themselves killed" librarians (as in, actual librarians, not psykers) more than anyone else.

Course, Prognosticars are more about reading the warp to determine the next daemon incursion than librarius functions, but whatever. It's actually an annoying job because you're no longer out fighting and instead confined to a tower doing psychic readings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, they do have 1 confirmed immortal Marine in their number at the very least

Only because he's embraced Slaanesh

Pretty sure he's talking about that other guy (Anval Thawn). But he's a Perpetual so he's hardly normal (the last one, in fact). He's immortal for the same reasons the Emperor was, not because he's a Space Marine.

I just finished re-reading Flight of the Eisenstein and it is explicitly mentioned that they are effectively immortal. Garro mentions that "it is said an Astartes can live a thousand years or more", implying that they will, in fact, die eventually. It is their ability to live for a dozen human lifetimes without much physical deterioration to their body that makes them effectively immortal. However, this doesn't mean they are completely immortal in the sense that they will never die.

Warhammer Visions 04 from May, page 191 wrote:Having sided with Horus during the Horus Heresy, the Alpha Legion contains many warriors who are veterans of the Long War.

Interesting tidbit.

Functionally immortal and effectively immortal are two important distinctions.

TiamatRoar wrote:
And yet they do have a retirement position (Prognosticars). It's actually an annoying job because you're no longer out fighting and instead confined to a tower doing psychic readings.

Well, I imagine doing readings of daemonic plans and movements can be pretty hazardous too. :-)

 Ashiraya wrote:

Warhammer Visions 04 from May, page 191 wrote:Having sided with Horus during the Horus Heresy, the Alpha Legion contains many warriors who are veterans of the Long War.

Interesting tidbit.

CSMs really don't count, since due to the vagueness of time in the Warp in places like the Eye of Terror and other warp storms, you don't really know if they've actually lived that amount of time.

 Melissia wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

Warhammer Visions 04 from May, page 191 wrote:Having sided with Horus during the Horus Heresy, the Alpha Legion contains many warriors who are veterans of the Long War.

Interesting tidbit.

CSMs really don't count, since due to the vagueness of time in the Warp in places like the Eye of Terror and other warp storms, you don't really know if they've actually lived that amount of time.

Or if they've lived for more than 10k years. Bear in mind, many never went into the Eye, and spent most of their time in realspace.
Factor in the Warp's potential to slow down time in an area, or to transport you backwards/forwards when you travel. Or to freeze time. Or to grant immortality/eternal youth.
CSM's can't help us much here.

Yeah, exactly. CSMs are a weird case.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
That there are some marines that have lived absurdly long, is only proof that those specific marines (for some reason) lived that long. They are anomalities. This does not invalidate the several times stated general rule.
As for sus-an hibernation, in fiction it can be more effective than would 'realistically' be possible. Things that could not realistically happen happen in fiction all the time. And idea that a biological creature of complexity of a human could live for 10 000 years is highly implausible as well.

Except the stated rule has absolutely zero evidence behind it. Meanwhile, we've known multiple individuals to survive for thousands of years. While they might not be immortal, their lifespan at the very least extends for ten thousand years, if not longer, considering all known examples point to such.

Also, it's completely possible to engineer a human to be biologically immortal. The problem is that immortality does not exempt one from needing energy and exercise. Hence how space marines activating their sus-an membrane seem to either be producing free energy or operate at a 100% efficiency and lose no energy.

Emphasis mine, and that statement completely contradicts the opening thesis. They have very long life-spans,yes, far greater than that of a regular human. Some few examples live far beyond the norm even for Space Marines, yes. They have bio-magical means to enter a state of suspended animation for exceptionally long periods of time, yes.

That in no way, shape, or form makes them biologically immortal.

Any info on other races such as Orks etc?
Its generally accepted the more an Ork fights the bigger, meaner and generally more powerful they get.
There was a piece of fluff from the Octarius war stating vid caps had been taken showing Orks the size of Carnifexes.
Could an Ork hypothetically keep growing until he was crushed by gravity effects on his body or is Ork physiology immune to such things?
Hence could they live ad infinitum?

A planet sized Ork

Orks are biologically ageless as far as I know, but they usually don't live long enough for it to matter.

 Melissia wrote:
Orks are biologically ageless as far as I know, but they usually don't live long enough for it to matter.

And the bigger they get, the more firepower they draw from their enemies, resulting in dying sooner.

Except Ghazghkull. Because awesome.

 Ratius wrote:
Any info on other races such as Orks etc?
Its generally accepted the more an Ork fights the bigger, meaner and generally more powerful they get.
There was a piece of fluff from the Octarius war stating vid caps had been taken showing Orks the size of Carnifexes.
Could an Ork hypothetically keep growing until he was crushed by gravity effects on his body or is Ork physiology immune to such things?
Hence could they live ad infinitum?

A planet sized Ork

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Deffboss

Your wish is granted.