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Becoming infirm is hardly evidence that marines are not immortal. It just means they eventually become unfit for the extremely demanding physical requirements of constant warfare.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Becoming infirm is hardly evidence that marines are not immortal. It just means they eventually become unfit for the extremely demanding physical requirements of constant warfare.

Death is logical conclusion of infirmity.
In any case their limited lifespans are clearly stated; BRB: "Space Marines live extended life times - if they do not fall in battle, they can easily live two to three times longer than a normal man, and sometimes far longer."
And from 2nd edition BA codex: "The Blood Angels are amongst the longest-lived of all of the Space Marine Chapters, their gene-seed granting a vastly increased lifespan on all who possess it. It is not uncommon, therefore, for a Blood Angel to live for a millennium or more, if death in battle or the Red Thirst does not claim him first." Similar quote can be found in every edition of the BA book.

 Crimson wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
So it's just like almost everything else about the Space Marines, that is, contradictory?

It is really not contradictory at all, it is pretty clear that marines are not immortal. Some people just refuse to accept it.

I realise that you really don't want Marines to be immortal (Pretty clear judging by how fast you are to call the opposition 'fanwankery', happily breaking rule #1 in order to try to dissuade people from disagreeing) but your opinion does not equal objective fact.

There's sources pointing both ways- not least the over 10.000 year old votlw.

Before you say that is because of Chaos granting them long life, can you give me a source on that? Before you say it is due to the Warp compressing time for the survivors, I can toss you examples to the contrary.

BA's long life can just as easily be because fate has granted their warriors an unusually low risk of dying on the battlefield. It says nothing that they are unusally long-lived biologically, just unusually long-lived.

Even the quotes that explicitly say otherwise, like 2nd ed C:BA, are old and can easily have been retconned by the existence of the more recent sources contradicting it.

 Ashiraya wrote:

I realise that you really don't want Marines to be immortal (Pretty clear judging by how fast you are to call the opposition 'fanwankery') but your opinion does not equal fact.

This has nothing to do what I want the background to be, it has to do with what the background actually says.

 Crimson wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

I realise that you really don't want Marines to be immortal (Pretty clear judging by how fast you are to call the opposition 'fanwankery') but your opinion does not equal fact.

This has nothing to do what I want the background to be, it has to do with what the background actually says.

And yet you stare blindly at one side of the argument and try to paint it as the objective truth when I can gladly toss you sources that explain how it really is not that simple.

Want me to?

Not immortal, but still like gods unto their strength and will. Even gods can be killed, even gods can die. But its not immortal sweat that builds civilization, rather the opposite. What is a god amongst men?

I am sure you can come up with some tortured explanation why clear quotes actually mean actually exact opposite as what they say, but why would you want to? The immortality stance is purely based on a throwaway line in HH books, and even BL has realised their mistake and corrected it in the newer books.

 Crimson wrote:
I am sure you can come up with some tortured explanation why clear quotes actually mean actually exact opposite as what they say, but why would you want to? The immortality stance is purely based on a throwaway line in HH books, and even BL has realised their mistake and corrected it in the newer books.

Are you trying to convince people? Or are you simply stating your opinion?

 LumenPraebeo wrote:

Are you trying to convince people? Or are you simply stating your opinion?

I'd hope both. I have actually provided quotes, which I think are pretty definite. If some people refuse to accept them, so be it. In the end it is all fiction anyway.

Perhaps Gene-seed is partially Warp Magic and can produce varying results? No quotes to back me up. Just an ass pull.

Some evidence to back my hypothesis up is the staggeringly high mutation rates, how much Chaos Marines are empowered by the warp and how tampering with it has results like incredibly bad luck.

ThePrimordial wrote: given what the only two judging points are.

Given what your only two judging points are. And then ignoring the vast pile of data that doesn't fit your theory.

Space marines are explicitly said to have unnaturally long lives, and to be not immortal.

A few Mary Sues excepting.

What Mary Sues?

 Crimson wrote:

 LumenPraebeo wrote:

Are you trying to convince people? Or are you simply stating your opinion?

I'd hope both. I have actually provided quotes, which I think are pretty definite. If some people refuse to accept them, so be it. In the end it is all fiction anyway.

A single line?

That's overdoing it.

Aside from Horus Rising, we also have Honour among Fiends. A short story and an enlightening read, I can recommend it.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Heroes_of_the_Space_Marines_(Anthology)#Honour_Among_Fiends

It details a guy who has fought with his squad since the Heresy, and who tires of the eternal hunt, but he finds that the Gods have made him immortal and he simply can't die, so he is doomed to hunt forever.

Just as an example.

 Crimson wrote:
Didn't we have this same thread few weeks ago ( and hundred times before that)? Space Marines are not immortal. It says it pretty clearly in BRB as well as in BA codex. Immortal marines is just We can find a different choice of words here please. Thanks.Reds8n people keep repeating.

Furthermore, we do not know what effect senescence has on marines. It is likely that their physical abilities would deteriorate somewhat, but it is being compensated by their experience and technology. Oldest living Ultramarine, (about 400 years old) Chaplain Cassius is mostly a cyborg.

Except this is again, defeated by the ten thousand year old Salamander, along with all his fellows who died over the ten millennia to Orks.

Padorax has a dark Angel that is 10000 years old, no stasis or warp involved, if not immortal...bloody close to it

 Ashiraya wrote:

It details a guy who has fought with his squad since the Heresy, and who tires of the eternal hunt, but he finds that the Gods have made him immortal and he simply can't die, so he is doomed to hunt forever.

No one has denied that there are Chaos Marines that have witnessed the heresy.

Codex CSM, 6E:
"Indeed, records of the full horror of the Heresy are only preserved by the Daemon-hunting Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus, and perhaps within the memories of the Emperor himself.

Within the Eye of Terror, however, time flows differently. Many of the same traitors who howled their praises to the Gods of Chaos before the Imperial Palace still live to this day."

So no loyal Space Marine in the Imperium is alive to remember the Heresy, and it is only the strange properties of the Eye of Terror (and presumably other such warp breaches) that allows the existence of Chaos Marines who can do so.

Animus wrote:
Space Marines are not immortal, they visibly age, with Blood Angels doing so slower. Age is essentially degradation, and continual degradation ends in death.
Sus-an comas seem to completely or near enough completely stop biological function and so can indefinitely preserve a Marine as he is.

Fabius Bile says;

Angel Exterminatus, Chapter 21 wrote:The primarchs think their warriors are immortal, but they are wrong. We are as mortal as any living thing, we just take longer to die.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
It's well known that space marines don't lose any physical strength as they age. They may appear older but they're just as strong and fast as their younger brothers.

Not quite.

Codex Grey Knights, page 24 wrote:A small few Librarians are fortunate enough to reach an age when their bodies can no longer meet the rigours of campaign. Such warriors are removed from the Chapter's fighting roster entirely, and retire to the labyrinthine corridors of the Sanctum Santorum

You're gonna have to find more evidence out of tens of millions of words than a piece of ward fluff.

 Crimson wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

It details a guy who has fought with his squad since the Heresy, and who tires of the eternal hunt, but he finds that the Gods have made him immortal and he simply can't die, so he is doomed to hunt forever.

No one has denied that there are Chaos Marines that have witnessed the heresy.

Codex CSM, 6E:
"Indeed, records of the full horror of the Heresy are only preserved by the Daemon-hunting Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus, and perhaps within the memories of the Emperor himself.

Within the Eye of Terror, however, time flows differently. Many of the same traitors who howled their praises to the Gods of Chaos before the Imperial Palace still live to this day."

So no loyal Space Marine in the Imperium is alive to remember the Heresy, and it is only the strange properties of the Eye of Terror (and presumably other such warp breaches) that allows the existence of Chaos Marines who can do so.

It's true. That quote you have explains that just as there may be veterans of the heresy that are a mere thousand year old, equally likely is those who are a hundred thousand.

Read my link again. That guy killed enough Captains to form an altar of skulls, each captain the gene-seed successor of the one before.

That is not something you do in a short time.

 Ailaros wrote:

ThePrimordial wrote: given what the only two judging points are.

Given what your only two judging points are. And then ignoring the vast pile of data that doesn't fit your theory.

Space marines are explicitly said to have unnaturally long lives, and to be not immortal.

A few Mary Sues excepting.

Scientifically fertility and physicality ARE the two primary judging points when looking at senescence.
And what evidence? We have a single line of ward fluff to the contrary.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Except this is again, defeated by the ten thousand year old Salamander, along with all his fellows who died over the ten millennia to Orks.

Two things: 1) Sus-an membrane 2) BL books violate the background all the time and contradict even each other.

 Crimson wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Except this is again, defeated by the ten thousand year old Salamander, along with all his fellows who died over the ten millennia to Orks.

Two things: 1) Sus-an membrane 2) BL books violate the background all the time and contradict even each other.

Or the Blood Angel fluff is simply invalid and old.

And again 10k dark Angel, no stasis or warp involved, still a very nasty fighter, marines do indeed seem to be biologically immune to "normal" ageing up to a point

Dantioch is a bad example as we don't know how much he was aged, could be 400 years, could be 10000000000 years, it's never stated.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Explaining time.
Some of you may have heard the word senescence when people are talking about complex life. Senescence is basically the deterioration of complex life with age. It normally occurs with regards to fertility and physical strength, and certain animals such as lobsters, or bowhead whales do not experience these negative effects, but lobsters still end up dying because they grow to big for their anatomy to handle. And bowhead whales? Who knows how they die.
Putting this in application
Space marine fertility has never showed up in anything and is left vague rendering it useless for our purposes. It's well known that space marines don't lose any physical strength as they age. They may appear older but they're just as strong and fast as their younger brothers. Going by the only two criterion death in regards to age is judged on would mean marines are biologically immortal.

Well first, You have to know a fair share about Biology, not just something you read on Google.

Second,
\

I'd like to imaged this model, was sculpted to show a marine who died of old age. waiting for rescue.,

 Ashiraya wrote:

It's true. That quote you have explains that just as there may be veterans of the heresy that are a mere thousand year old, equally likely is those who are a hundred thousand.

It is clear from the context that the different way the time flows is the reason for those traitors still being alive.

Read my link again. That guy killed enough Captains to form an altar of skulls, each captain the gene-seed successor of the one before.

That is not something you do in a short time.

This is the guy who was specifically made immortal by the Chaos Gods? And even if he weren't, that doesn't mean he needed ten thousand years. As time flows differently in the Warp-influenced places, it is possible that from his perspective the Heresy was 'merely' a few centuries ago, and he killed a loyalist Captain every few years (exact frequency depending on the size of the altar.)

If anything, that story reinforces the idea that marines are not Immortal. There were dozens or hundreds of 'generations' of the loyalist marines during those 10 000 years. If it was merely their natural genetic-enhancements and luck that allowed Chaos Marines to exist 10 000 years after the Heresy, there would also be about similar numbers of ten thousand years old loyalist marines. There aren't. Individuals such as Logan Grimnar and Dante are seen as exceptionally old for being a thousand years old.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Or the Blood Angel fluff is simply invalid and old.

6E BRB is also invalid and old?

 Crimson wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

It's true. That quote you have explains that just as there may be veterans of the heresy that are a mere thousand year old, equally likely is those who are a hundred thousand.

It is clear from the context that the different way the time flows is the reason for those traitors still being alive.

Read my link again. That guy killed enough Captains to form an altar of skulls, each captain the gene-seed successor of the one before.

That is not something you do in a short time.

This is the guy who was specifically made immortal by the Chaos Gods? And even if he weren't, that doesn't mean he needed ten thousand years. As time flows differently in the Warp-influenced places, it is possible that from his perspective the Heresy was 'merely' a few centuries ago, and he killed a loyalist Captain every few years (exact frequency depending on the size of the altar.)

If anything, that story reinforces the idea that marines are not Immortal. There were dozens or hundreds of 'generations' of the loyalist marines during those 10 000 years. If it was merely their natural genetic-enhancements and luck that allowed Chaos Marines to exist 10 000 years after the Heresy, there would also be about similar numbers of ten thousand years old loyalist marines. There aren't. Individuals such as Logan Grimnar and Dante are seen as exceptionally old for being a thousand years old.

He was made immortal = can't be killed at all.

His squad was immortal in the sense that they can't die of old age- his squad there had followed him since the heresy, one of them even retaining his young looks despite his 'impossible age' for such an appearance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

6E BRB is also invalid and old?

You mean the same 6E BRB that tells us that the Space Marines are the single most important defense force of the Imperium?

Is that cherrypicking I smell?

 kinratha wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Explaining time.
Some of you may have heard the word senescence when people are talking about complex life. Senescence is basically the deterioration of complex life with age. It normally occurs with regards to fertility and physical strength, and certain animals such as lobsters, or bowhead whales do not experience these negative effects, but lobsters still end up dying because they grow to big for their anatomy to handle. And bowhead whales? Who knows how they die.
Putting this in application
Space marine fertility has never showed up in anything and is left vague rendering it useless for our purposes. It's well known that space marines don't lose any physical strength as they age. They may appear older but they're just as strong and fast as their younger brothers. Going by the only two criterion death in regards to age is judged on would mean marines are biologically immortal.

Well first, You have to know a fair share about Biology, not just something you read on Google.

Second,
\
I'd like to imaged this model, was sculpted to show a marine who died of old age. waiting for rescue.,

That's a space hulk model and instead of being insulted can you really claim to know he didn't die of asphyxia because of his damaged helm?
Do you realize given what we know of marine uninterrupted lifespan (without weakening ) he would be sitting there for over 10k years given that salamander and dark raven.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

You're gonna have to find more evidence out of tens of millions of words than a piece of ward fluff.

Why? If even Ward - the Marine fan supreme - can accept that Space Marines are not immortal then you should be able too also.

The Iron Within wrote:Tavarre died of old age in the cruiser infirmary

Tavarre the Techmarine.

The thing about immortality is... how do you prove it? I mean how can you prove 'live forever?' We know they can die, so its not like Perpetuals, but we've never actually seen whether Space Marines die of old age (to my knowledge). The closest might be that one Salamander from the first Nick Kyme novel (the one from the Heresy era) but its hard to judge that one because there are other factors at play. And as far as the fluff goes (esp the HH stuff) there hasn't been a clear consensus on that (some writers confirm it, others say otherwise) so it comes down to whose position you buy more.

This may be something we never get an definitive answer on, and its left up to the individual to decide. Kinda like, you know, everything in 40K.

 kinratha wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Explaining time.
Some of you may have heard the word senescence when people are talking about complex life. Senescence is basically the deterioration of complex life with age. It normally occurs with regards to fertility and physical strength, and certain animals such as lobsters, or bowhead whales do not experience these negative effects, but lobsters still end up dying because they grow to big for their anatomy to handle. And bowhead whales? Who knows how they die.
Putting this in application
Space marine fertility has never showed up in anything and is left vague rendering it useless for our purposes. It's well known that space marines don't lose any physical strength as they age. They may appear older but they're just as strong and fast as their younger brothers. Going by the only two criterion death in regards to age is judged on would mean marines are biologically immortal.

Well first, You have to know a fair share about Biology, not just something you read on Google.

Second,
\

I'd like to imaged this model, was sculpted to show a marine who died of old age. waiting for rescue.,

Which just as easily could have resulted from radiation overdose, asphyxiation, poison, wounds, etc

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
What about Dante?

10,000 years does not immortal make. Very very long and immortal are completely different.

The BA are known for having long lifespans for Space Marines, something to do with sanguinious's constant youth, but this tells you that if they know that BA live longer than regular space marines then all space marines do age and deteriorate.

Dante is also wearing an artifact with about as much of sanguinius's essence as is left in the galaxy, which might enhance his life

Their maximum lifespan seems to vary from geneseed to geneseed, and then probably also varies from stock to stock and procedure to procedure but it might be 400-10,000 depending on those variables