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Explaining time.
Some of you may have heard the word senescence when people are talking about complex life. Senescence is basically the deterioration of complex life with age. It normally occurs with regards to fertility and physical strength, and certain animals such as lobsters, or bowhead whales do not experience these negative effects, but lobsters still end up dying because they grow to big for their anatomy to handle. And bowhead whales? Who knows how they die.
Putting this in application
Space marine fertility has never showed up in anything and is left vague rendering it useless for our purposes. It's well known that space marines don't lose any physical strength as they age. They may appear older but they're just as strong and fast as their younger brothers. Going by the only two criterion death in regards to age is judged on would mean marines are biologically immortal.

No.

 Psienesis wrote:
No.

So then yes?

No. Plenty of evidence in both BL and Codices that Space Marines are not biologically immortal.

What about Dante?

 Psienesis wrote:
No. Plenty of evidence in both BL and Codices that Space Marines are not biologically immortal.

This loses relevance when they would be immortal in regards to real world biology, given what the only two judging points are.

My only problem with this is that BA shoot a giant hole through this, Dante in particular.

Interesting theory, and considering many SMs have insanely long lives, I would say it's possible. One of those "we may never know" scenarios though since having the entire universe in open war puts a real damper on a long safe lifespan lol.

I don't believe that any marine has ever died what we would call a natural death.

They do appear to deteriorate with age, but we have yet to see evidence of a Marine dying of simple old age.


But the long and short of it is that Marines live a dangerous life. They'll never just sit around and wait to see if they die, they'll fight to the bitter end and die a heroic death in service to the Emperor.

Thus the idea of biological immortality is moot.

Space marines are "Immortal" in terms of time alone. A marine left to his devices, given enough food and water, occupation to keep him from going insane could live, at the very least, an extraordinarily long time. Longer than Eldrad, I believe.

The only reason space marines don't tend to be older than ~600 years at the very most is that the things die left right and centre. Let's apply the rules of instance probability and say that the longer a space marine lives, the more wars he fights in and thus, his chance of dying begins to approach one.

Dante, Grimnar and Cassius seem to be exceptions to this rule - they fight in the most dangerous regions of space and in the highest points of conflict, but they've got plot arm- I mean, they're lucky.

I believe Space Marines are as immortal as my Koi fish. As a species they've been known to live over 200 years, but I had one die this winter due to an incident.

There is a book you might want to read if you are interested in the subject called "The Postmortal". It's about what happens to humanity after a cure is developed for aging. You're functionally immortal, but you're going to die if you get hit by a bus, or develop cancer, and so on.

Aging is possibly a combination of the decay of DNA as copies are made over time and the effects of time itself on marines. Since marines mostly use human DNA (At least they don't mention fixing the DNA replication decay issue) they would suffer the from the same thing. Being intended for reproduction has nothing to do with it. It's probable that their sheer durability prevents them deteriorating too quickly.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Aging is possibly a combination of the decay of DNA as copies are made over time and the effects of time itself on marines. Since marines mostly use human DNA (At least they don't mention fixing the DNA replication decay issue) they would suffer the from the same thing. Being intended for reproduction has nothing to do with it. It's probable that their sheer durability prevents them deteriorating too quickly.

in the far future, they likely have a resolution for telomerase degrading telomeres (the DNA decay you speak of).

Several Space Marines in the BL series have shown signs of aging. Dantioch was prematurely aged by the Hrud, but one of the loyalist Luna Wolves (one of the ones that would become a Grey Knight predecessor) was also showing a lot of visible signs of aging. Despite the wrinkles, he was still able to physically do what all other marines could physically do, so it was noted in-universe that this was just another reminder of how little everyone knew exactly about how Space Marine physiology worked.

Of course, Blood Angels age much slower than other Space Marines. Dante looks younger than that old Ultramarine guy and Logan.

As for dying of old age, IIRC there's studio fluff passages that unarguably-but-indirectly state it happens which people have posted to these forums several times although we've yet to see an actual story of a Space Marine dying of old age.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Several Space Marines in the BL series have shown signs of aging. Dantioch was prematurely aged by the Hrud, but one of the loyalist Luna Wolves (one of the ones that would become a Grey Knight predecessor) was also showing a lot of visible signs of aging. Despite the wrinkles, he was still able to physically do what all other marines could physically do, so it was noted in-universe that this was just another reminder of how little everyone knew exactly about how Space Marine physiology worked.

Of course, Blood Angels age much slower than other Space Marines. Dante looks younger than that old Ultramarine guy and Logan.

As for dying of old age, IIRC there's studio fluff passages that unarguably-but-indirectly state it happens which people have posted to these forums several times although we've yet to see an actual story of a Space Marine dying of old age.

This gets me thinking...what if Space Marine DNA is altered in such a way, perhaps an imperfect alteration, that allows genetic immortality without accounting for phenotypic immortality with regard to the polygenic traits of skin quality, hair color, etc.. Seems unlikely given the level of genetic engineering taking place to make their existence plausible in the first place. But hey, its 40k. Lots of discrepancies exist, and I admit that applying modern genetic principles to a fictional universe may not be the best idea lol.

mstockwe87 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Aging is possibly a combination of the decay of DNA as copies are made over time and the effects of time itself on marines. Since marines mostly use human DNA (At least they don't mention fixing the DNA replication decay issue) they would suffer the from the same thing. Being intended for reproduction has nothing to do with it. It's probable that their sheer durability prevents them deteriorating too quickly.

in the far future, they likely have a resolution for telomerase degrading telomeres (the DNA decay you speak of).

Their solution isn't to treat the cause but rather the effects. It's not specified what rejuvenant treatments are but it seems to use children as a raw material. If I had to guess... they replace the decayed telomeres with "Fresh" ones. So, this tells me that they do not have a cure for this degradation which would mean that Space Marines aren't immortal by themselves. Blood Angels are actually noted for their long life which indicates that Marines do age.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

mstockwe87 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Aging is possibly a combination of the decay of DNA as copies are made over time and the effects of time itself on marines. Since marines mostly use human DNA (At least they don't mention fixing the DNA replication decay issue) they would suffer the from the same thing. Being intended for reproduction has nothing to do with it. It's probable that their sheer durability prevents them deteriorating too quickly.

in the far future, they likely have a resolution for telomerase degrading telomeres (the DNA decay you speak of).

Their solution isn't to treat the cause but rather the effects. It's not specified what rejuvenant treatments are but it seems to use children as a raw material. If I had to guess... they replace the decayed telomeres with "Fresh" ones. So, this tells me that they do not have a cure for this degradation which would mean that Space Marines aren't immortal by themselves. Blood Angels are actually noted for their long life which indicates that Marines do age.

Your Blood Angel quote does make me wonder, and adds credence to the argument that they do age in a traditional sense (albeit extended) bc of its wording. As far as telomeres go, it would be a relatively easy fix (theoretically) given the prerequisite amount of knowledge it would take to engineer individual organs to adapt to and integrate within broad-based human templates without auto-immune rejection given that immune response, with regard to innate response is predicated on genetics. Here again, we fall into the trap of applying real world science to a fictional universe I suppose.

 StarTrotter wrote:
My only problem with this is that BA shoot a giant hole through this, Dante in particular.

Yeah Blood Angels are weird.
It's seems to me that maybe the only part of normal marines that ages at all is their skin due to some deficiency but BA don't even have that.
That's my explanation for it, and given that "elderly marines" do everything younger marines do only better due to more experience, it at least makes sense.

The ten thousand year old Salamander says hello, along with all of this kinsmen that kicked it over the millennia on the same planet.

mstockwe87 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

mstockwe87 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Aging is possibly a combination of the decay of DNA as copies are made over time and the effects of time itself on marines. Since marines mostly use human DNA (At least they don't mention fixing the DNA replication decay issue) they would suffer the from the same thing. Being intended for reproduction has nothing to do with it. It's probable that their sheer durability prevents them deteriorating too quickly.

in the far future, they likely have a resolution for telomerase degrading telomeres (the DNA decay you speak of).

Their solution isn't to treat the cause but rather the effects. It's not specified what rejuvenant treatments are but it seems to use children as a raw material. If I had to guess... they replace the decayed telomeres with "Fresh" ones. So, this tells me that they do not have a cure for this degradation which would mean that Space Marines aren't immortal by themselves. Blood Angels are actually noted for their long life which indicates that Marines do age.

Your Blood Angel quote does make me wonder, and adds credence to the argument that they do age in a traditional sense (albeit extended) bc of its wording. As far as telomeres go, it would be a relatively easy fix (theoretically) given the prerequisite amount of knowledge it would take to engineer individual organs to adapt to and integrate within broad-based human templates without auto-immune rejection given that immune response, with regard to innate response is predicated on genetics. Here again, we fall into the trap of applying real world science to a fictional universe I suppose.

With the Imperium it is a fallacy to assume that just because they can do A that means they can o B just because A and B are strongly related. Their technology level is scattered at best. You have vehicles equipped with 20th century machine guns on the one hand and gravity defying light vehicles on the other. It is possible that they discovered a way to fix the aging problem a long time ago but they lost the tech and never recovered it. Or the rejuvenant solution is the best and only way to do it.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

mstockwe87 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

mstockwe87 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Aging is possibly a combination of the decay of DNA as copies are made over time and the effects of time itself on marines. Since marines mostly use human DNA (At least they don't mention fixing the DNA replication decay issue) they would suffer the from the same thing. Being intended for reproduction has nothing to do with it. It's probable that their sheer durability prevents them deteriorating too quickly.

in the far future, they likely have a resolution for telomerase degrading telomeres (the DNA decay you speak of).

Their solution isn't to treat the cause but rather the effects. It's not specified what rejuvenant treatments are but it seems to use children as a raw material. If I had to guess... they replace the decayed telomeres with "Fresh" ones. So, this tells me that they do not have a cure for this degradation which would mean that Space Marines aren't immortal by themselves. Blood Angels are actually noted for their long life which indicates that Marines do age.

Your Blood Angel quote does make me wonder, and adds credence to the argument that they do age in a traditional sense (albeit extended) bc of its wording. As far as telomeres go, it would be a relatively easy fix (theoretically) given the prerequisite amount of knowledge it would take to engineer individual organs to adapt to and integrate within broad-based human templates without auto-immune rejection given that immune response, with regard to innate response is predicated on genetics. Here again, we fall into the trap of applying real world science to a fictional universe I suppose.

With the Imperium it is a fallacy to assume that just because they can do A that means they can o B just because A and B are strongly related. Their technology level is scattered at best. You have vehicles equipped with 20th century machine guns on the one hand and gravity defying light vehicles on the other. It is possible that they discovered a way to fix the aging problem a long time ago but they lost the tech and never recovered it. Or the rejuvenant solution is the best and only way to do it.

It might also just be a completely different solution between the creation of Astartes and Rejuvie tech. The Astartes were made specifically by the GEOM himself, while Rejuvie tech is probably just a leftover of the DAOT or a diluted version of it.

Right. The thing is is that none of the Astartes implants seem to do anything about the Telomere issue. I am sure if GW writers knew about them and their role in the aging process I am sure they would have included an implant that "replaced" them through some means. As it stands I believe that the Space Marine's natural toughness allows them to overcome a lot of the issues that come with aging prolonging their lives. They are quite literally fighting off the reaper. That or one of the implants actually does help with this issue and the modern day Imperium either doesn't know about this or never mentions it in their works.

 Wyzilla wrote:
The ten thousand year old Salamander says hello, along with all of this kinsmen that kicked it over the millennia on the same planet.

Technically he starved/atrophied to death. With supplies he might have survived at least physically.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

mstockwe87 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

mstockwe87 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Aging is possibly a combination of the decay of DNA as copies are made over time and the effects of time itself on marines. Since marines mostly use human DNA (At least they don't mention fixing the DNA replication decay issue) they would suffer the from the same thing. Being intended for reproduction has nothing to do with it. It's probable that their sheer durability prevents them deteriorating too quickly.

in the far future, they likely have a resolution for telomerase degrading telomeres (the DNA decay you speak of).

Their solution isn't to treat the cause but rather the effects. It's not specified what rejuvenant treatments are but it seems to use children as a raw material. If I had to guess... they replace the decayed telomeres with "Fresh" ones. So, this tells me that they do not have a cure for this degradation which would mean that Space Marines aren't immortal by themselves. Blood Angels are actually noted for their long life which indicates that Marines do age.

Your Blood Angel quote does make me wonder, and adds credence to the argument that they do age in a traditional sense (albeit extended) bc of its wording. As far as telomeres go, it would be a relatively easy fix (theoretically) given the prerequisite amount of knowledge it would take to engineer individual organs to adapt to and integrate within broad-based human templates without auto-immune rejection given that immune response, with regard to innate response is predicated on genetics. Here again, we fall into the trap of applying real world science to a fictional universe I suppose.

With the Imperium it is a fallacy to assume that just because they can do A that means they can o B just because A and B are strongly related. Their technology level is scattered at best. You have vehicles equipped with 20th century machine guns on the one hand and gravity defying light vehicles on the other. It is possible that they discovered a way to fix the aging problem a long time ago but they lost the tech and never recovered it. Or the rejuvenant solution is the best and only way to do it.

point taken good sir

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
The ten thousand year old Salamander says hello, along with all of this kinsmen that kicked it over the millennia on the same planet.

Technically he starved/atrophied to death. With supplies he might have survived at least physically.

He was still very much alive, just that he stayed guard for so long and well, atrophied away. He did indeed age, as all Astartes do, but they can at least survive for around ten thousand years or so. Plus when in hibernation, Astartes seem to generate infinite energy.

Didn't we have this same thread few weeks ago ( and hundred times before that)? Space Marines are not immortal. It says it pretty clearly in BRB as well as in BA codex. Immortal marines is just We can find a different choice of words here please. Thanks.Reds8n people keep repeating.

Furthermore, we do not know what effect senescence has on marines. It is likely that their physical abilities would deteriorate somewhat, but it is being compensated by their experience and technology. Oldest living Ultramarine, (about 400 years old) Chaplain Cassius is mostly a cyborg.

Most will never live long ernough to suffer old age and die in battle.

Space Marines are not immortal, they visibly age, with Blood Angels doing so slower. Age is essentially degradation, and continual degradation ends in death.
Sus-an comas seem to completely or near enough completely stop biological function and so can indefinitely preserve a Marine as he is.

Fabius Bile says;

Angel Exterminatus, Chapter 21 wrote:The primarchs think their warriors are immortal, but they are wrong. We are as mortal as any living thing, we just take longer to die.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
It's well known that space marines don't lose any physical strength as they age. They may appear older but they're just as strong and fast as their younger brothers.

Not quite.

Codex Grey Knights, page 24 wrote:A small few Librarians are fortunate enough to reach an age when their bodies can no longer meet the rigours of campaign. Such warriors are removed from the Chapter's fighting roster entirely, and retire to the labyrinthine corridors of the Sanctum Santorum

So it's just like almost everything else about the Space Marines, that is, contradictory?

 Ashiraya wrote:
So it's just like almost everything else about the Space Marines, that is, contradictory?

It is really not contradictory at all, it is pretty clear that marines are not immortal. Some people just refuse to accept it.