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 Crimson wrote:
Marine in sus-an sleep doesn't need to eat.

Sis-an doesn't stop physics and loss of body mass due to starvation in any fluff that I have read, the body would eventually lose all fat reserves and start eating muscle mass tosurvive, an emaciated space marine isn't very heroic

 Formosa wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Marine in sus-an sleep doesn't need to eat.

Sis-an doesn't stop physics and loss of body mass due to starvation in any fluff that I have read, the body would eventually lose all fat reserves and start eating muscle mass tosurvive, an emaciated space marine isn't very heroic

Well, that would realistically happen... but this is 40K we're talking about.

 Crimson wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

It is impossible that the mentions of limited Marine lifespans are anything more than speculation when they have never been proven, and there are implications that the contrary is true.

I don't think so. It has been stated matter of factly in several places. Furthermore, we know that Marines indeed get weaker when they're really old (and logical conclusion of that is death) and are often retired from active duty to training duties. Now, if Marines indeed were immortal, many of those retired Marines would live forever, as they would no longer be killed in the battle. This is obviously not the case, no such Marines are ever mentioned, Chaplain Cassius is the oldest living Ultramarine, being about 400.

Just it being stated means nothing unless there is actual evidence behind it. As there is none, the entire opinion is false.

Also, then there's the lulzy bit of the sus-an membrane being able to produce infinite energy, as apparently space marines can produce free energy.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Just it being stated means nothing unless there is actual evidence behind it. As there is none, the entire opinion is false.

This stance is patently bizarre. It is fictional setting and if creators of that setting state that the things are certain way then they're that way.

Also, then there's the lulzy bit of the sus-an membrane being able to produce infinite energy, as apparently space marines can produce free energy.

No, they just don't spend much energy whilst they hibernate. I do not know the circumstances in the book, so I cannot comment specifics. Sleep was mentioned. (I agree that 10 000 years of hibernation sounds absurd.)

 Crimson wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Just it being stated means nothing unless there is actual evidence behind it. As there is none, the entire opinion is false.

This stance is patently bizarre. It is fictional setting and if creators of that setting state that the things are certain way then they're that way.

Also, then there's the lulzy bit of the sus-an membrane being able to produce infinite energy, as apparently space marines can produce free energy.

No, they just don't spend much energy whilst they hibernate. I do not know the circumstances in the book, so I cannot comment specifics. Sleep was mentioned. (I agree that 10 000 years of hibernation sounds absurd.)

No, it's a basic stance considering that it's blatantly false as there are numerous exceptions to it, and we have yet to see a space marine keel over from old age. Unless you can point to multiple space marines who died of old age, the position has absolutely no evidence compared to the multiple sources that blatantly contradict it and put some very large holes in its hull.

And no, it doesn't matter how they hibernate, nothing can survive for that long without burning away all of its energy stores. Either the sus-an membrane generates free energy (impossible), or it causes the astartes body to operate at a hundred percent efficiency in order to survive for that long (which, surprise, is also impossible).

 Wyzilla wrote:

No, it's a basic stance considering that it's blatantly false as there are numerous exceptions to it, and we have yet to see a space marine keel over from old age. Unless you can point to multiple space marines who died of old age, the position has absolutely no evidence compared to the multiple sources that blatantly contradict it and put some very large holes in its hull.

By 'numerous' you mean few dubious examples from BL. That there are exeptions to general rule, does not mean that a general rule does not exist, merely that there are unusual instances when the general rule has been broken (or it is a mistake.) Your refusal to believe what the creators of the setting tell you is laughable. Why the hell you think they write those things in the fluff?

And no, it doesn't matter how they hibernate, nothing can survive for that long without burning away all of its energy stores. Either the sus-an membrane generates free energy (impossible), or it causes the astartes body to operate at a hundred percent efficiency in order to survive for that long (which, surprise, is also impossible).

Do you understand what fiction means? In reality FTL travel is also impossible.

 Crimson wrote:

And no, it doesn't matter how they hibernate, nothing can survive for that long without burning away all of its energy stores. Either the sus-an membrane generates free energy (impossible), or it causes the astartes body to operate at a hundred percent efficiency in order to survive for that long (which, surprise, is also impossible).

Do you understand what fiction means? In reality FTL travel is also impossible.

Not that I'm one to make the debate, as I'm not that knowledgable about it, but FTL is debated as a possibility in the science community - there is much evidence against it, but there may be possibilities or workarounds. And our understanding of physics is incomplete, and some sections may be entirely wrong.

 Selym wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

And no, it doesn't matter how they hibernate, nothing can survive for that long without burning away all of its energy stores. Either the sus-an membrane generates free energy (impossible), or it causes the astartes body to operate at a hundred percent efficiency in order to survive for that long (which, surprise, is also impossible).

Do you understand what fiction means? In reality FTL travel is also impossible.

Not that I'm one to make the debate, as I'm not that knowledgable about it, but FTL is debated as a possibility in the science community - there is much evidence against it, but there may be possibilities or workarounds. And our understanding of physics is incomplete, and some sections may be entirely wrong.

Right. But same could be said about our knowledge of the viability of non-energy-consuming coma.

 Crimson wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

No, it's a basic stance considering that it's blatantly false as there are numerous exceptions to it, and we have yet to see a space marine keel over from old age. Unless you can point to multiple space marines who died of old age, the position has absolutely no evidence compared to the multiple sources that blatantly contradict it and put some very large holes in its hull.

By 'numerous' you mean few dubious examples from BL. That there are exeptions to general rule, does not mean that a general rule does not exist, merely that there are unusual instances when the general rule has been broken (or it is a mistake.) Your refusal to believe what the creators of the setting tell you is laughable. Why the hell you think they write those things in the fluff?

And no, it doesn't matter how they hibernate, nothing can survive for that long without burning away all of its energy stores. Either the sus-an membrane generates free energy (impossible), or it causes the astartes body to operate at a hundred percent efficiency in order to survive for that long (which, surprise, is also impossible).

Do you understand what fiction means? In reality FTL travel is also impossible.

For one, those instances were not dubious, and secondly, the Black Library occurs with in-universe events, there were indeed around three astartes who lived far beyond the thousand year mark, up to the ten thousand mark, with one kicking it due to atrophy. Not only did these happen, they directly contradict the Blood Angels fluff and destroy any possible standing it has. And no, I'm not disagreeing with what the creators told us, considering those same people licensed, endorsed, and advertised the Black Library material- there is no difference between a Codex and a Black Library novel (with the BL actually being far, faaaar better, considering they're a true window into the universe compared to a poor and vague description like the Codices). The general rule is only a rule if it actually has evidence to support it. Considering that space marines at least being able to survive for ten thousand years has more supporting evidence than space marines only living a couple centuries, the Blood Angel fluff is flawed and unsupported. Unless you can actually bring up several (three or more) instances of space marines dying from old age, your stance has absolutely no evidence behind it besides flat statements with no events to actually support them (space marines dying from old age).

And even if it's fiction, this does not mean that suddenly physics goes off and puts a slug in its brain. Space Marines somehow generate free energy or reach 100% energy efficiency while in a sus-an coma. So they completely break science by simply existing, or there's some very strange technobbable in their organs.

Of course they aren't.

They might be ageless (debatable, the lore goes either way), but they aren't immortal.

May not age fast but they live brutal lives, injury, combat and such take there toll too.

They may live very long time if a mere scribe. But there warriors, they tend to die in combat or take injury and damage.

That there are some marines that have lived absurdly long, is only proof that those specific marines (for some reason) lived that long. They are anomalities. This does not invalidate the several times stated general rule.
As for sus-an hibernation, in fiction it can be more effective than would 'realistically' be possible. Things that could not realistically happen happen in fiction all the time. And idea that a biological creature of complexity of a human could live for 10 000 years is highly implausible as well.

 Crimson wrote:
That there are some marines that have lived absurdly long, is only proof that those specific marines (for some reason) lived that long. They are anomalities. This does not invalidate the several times stated general rule.
As for sus-an hibernation, in fiction it can be more effective than would 'realistically' be possible. Things that could not realistically happen happen in fiction all the time. And idea that a biological creature of complexity of a human could live for 10 000 years is highly implausible as well.

It is possible, however, in the 40k universe that they consorted with daemons (possibly due to latent psychic powers, or maybe their soul is bright enough for tzeentch to play with) and bargained for immortality. The warp is a fickle master, however, and can then just dump them into death for no reason at a later date.

And yes, that makes Dante a heretic in my headcannon.

 Crimson wrote:
That there are some marines that have lived absurdly long, is only proof that those specific marines (for some reason) lived that long. They are anomalities. This does not invalidate the several times stated general rule.
As for sus-an hibernation, in fiction it can be more effective than would 'realistically' be possible. Things that could not realistically happen happen in fiction all the time. And idea that a biological creature of complexity of a human could live for 10 000 years is highly implausible as well.

Except the stated rule has absolutely zero evidence behind it. Meanwhile, we've known multiple individuals to survive for thousands of years. While they might not be immortal, their lifespan at the very least extends for ten thousand years, if not longer, considering all known examples point to such.

Also, it's completely possible to engineer a human to be biologically immortal. The problem is that immortality does not exempt one from needing energy and exercise. Hence how space marines activating their sus-an membrane seem to either be producing free energy or operate at a 100% efficiency and lose no energy.

Still a fact that aside from the fiction where marines with Special Snowflake Syndrome are alive since the Heresy, Dante has always been the oldest living Marine, with Bjorn the Fell-Handed coming in as the oldest dreadnought. So other than that, every marine in the fiction is not much older than many other characters in the fiction who have had rejuvenation treatments- some even far older than "old" marines.

So the point is completely moot. Being immortal is a pointless fact if lots of other people who are not immortal are just as old as you.

According to the Black Library fluff I have heard that Terminators can back-flip, too.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Except the stated rule has absolutely zero evidence behind it.

It is a statement of fact, it needs no more evidence than a statement that a codex chapter is (about) thousand marines strong or a statement that the Emperor had a golden armour. When the writers tell us things about the setting, they mean it.

The problem is that immortality does not exempt one from needing energy and exercise. Hence how space marines activating their sus-an membrane seem to either be producing free energy or operate at a 100% efficiency and lose no energy.

They just spent no (or a negligible amount) of energy. It is not like they are doing much; it is self induced stasis. Scientist have managed to successfully plant seed that have been tens of thousands of years old, this mean that living cells have remained viable all that time. Now saying that human could be modified to do the same is perhaps silly, but not more so than saying that a human could be modified to live 10 000 years.

Personally, I imagine that if Space Marines really were biologically ageless, we'd have a few non-Chaos ones older than Dante still running around somewhere. Especially among the Grey Knights (Emperor's Gift) and as mentioned in this thread, certain chapters, who actually DO have a retirement system. Once a Space Marine in those chapters retires to the Librarium, you'd think a few of them would have lasted longer than Dante by now.

The Horus Heresy era marines think Space Marines might be immortal, but those noobs were only around for a century at most. What the hell do they know about Space Marine aging in that short a time frame?

TiamatRoar wrote:
Personally, I imagine that if Space Marines really were biologically ageless, we'd have a few non-Chaos ones older than Dante still running around somewhere. Especially among the Grey Knights (Emperor's Gift) and as mentioned in this thread, certain chapters, who actually DO have a retirement system. Once a Space Marine in those chapters retires to the Librarium, you'd think a few of them would have lasted longer than Dante by now.

Unlikely. Also, "retiring" to the Librarium doesn't mean they are permanently off any combat duty.

They'll come out and fight every now and then. And as the years go by the probability of them dying in combat approaches 1, this applies to any marine.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Especially among the Grey Knights

Huh? The guys that fight daemons on a regular basis? I'd imagine their chance of retiring is even slimmer than among "normal" marines if anything.

Well, they do have 1 confirmed immortal Marine in their number at the very least

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, they do have 1 confirmed immortal Marine in their number at the very least

Only because he's embraced Slaanesh

It comes down to the writer. Different writers have different stances on it. Abnett writes them as biologically immortal, Aaron Dembski-Bowden does not.

tgjensen wrote:
It comes down to the writer. Different writers have different stances on it. Abnett writes them as biologically immortal, Aaron Dembski-Bowden does not.

I would like to see the quote about Abnett. I don´t think I have ever find a source stating marines (all marines, no chaos involved, no sus-an) are immortal. A few may, in extraordinary circumstances, last thousands of years. But most do not. The provided quote clearly states ADB think the same, but I doubt Abnett, writer of Horus Rising (a book that included an "old" marine called Iacton Qruze), thinks otherwise.

By the way, people do not die of "Age". Aging means becoming weaker and weaker, until something else (a sickness, a bullet) kills you. Marines age and retire. So they get weaker and weaker and weaker. We know they retire of combat after a while (when they are no longer fit for it), yet we have not 2000 year old veterans around in every chapter, so I assume they die. Perhaps they are killed of whent they are unable to move, or remember their own name.

And, again, the "they have a long life-span" line clearly means they die.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
What about Dante?

Long fang from the space wolves pre-heresy gak!

Spetulhu wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
Especially among the Grey Knights

Huh? The guys that fight daemons on a regular basis? I'd imagine their chance of retiring is even slimmer than among "normal" marines if anything.

And yet they do have a retirement position (Prognosticars). At least according to the Emperor's Gift (apparently they're mentioned in the 5th ed Codex too though). Although in my own opinion, it kind of makes sense. Grey Knights rely on a LOT of forbidden knowledge that can't be allowed to leak out elsewhere, so if anything, out of all the Space Marine chapters, they'd need experienced knowledgeable wise "not on the field getting themselves killed" librarians (as in, actual librarians, not psykers) more than anyone else.

Course, Prognosticars are more about reading the warp to determine the next daemon incursion than librarius functions, but whatever. It's actually an annoying job because you're no longer out fighting and instead confined to a tower doing psychic readings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, they do have 1 confirmed immortal Marine in their number at the very least

Only because he's embraced Slaanesh

Pretty sure he's talking about that other guy (Anval Thawn). But he's a Perpetual so he's hardly normal (the last one, in fact). He's immortal for the same reasons the Emperor was, not because he's a Space Marine.

I just finished re-reading Flight of the Eisenstein and it is explicitly mentioned that they are effectively immortal. Garro mentions that "it is said an Astartes can live a thousand years or more", implying that they will, in fact, die eventually. It is their ability to live for a dozen human lifetimes without much physical deterioration to their body that makes them effectively immortal. However, this doesn't mean they are completely immortal in the sense that they will never die.

Warhammer Visions 04 from May, page 191 wrote:Having sided with Horus during the Horus Heresy, the Alpha Legion contains many warriors who are veterans of the Long War.

Interesting tidbit.

Functionally immortal and effectively immortal are two important distinctions.

TiamatRoar wrote:
And yet they do have a retirement position (Prognosticars). It's actually an annoying job because you're no longer out fighting and instead confined to a tower doing psychic readings.

Well, I imagine doing readings of daemonic plans and movements can be pretty hazardous too. :-)

 Ashiraya wrote:

Warhammer Visions 04 from May, page 191 wrote:Having sided with Horus during the Horus Heresy, the Alpha Legion contains many warriors who are veterans of the Long War.

Interesting tidbit.

CSMs really don't count, since due to the vagueness of time in the Warp in places like the Eye of Terror and other warp storms, you don't really know if they've actually lived that amount of time.