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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/13 15:35:08
Subject: Re:Space marines are biologically immortal
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Fixture of Dakka
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Krantz86 wrote: should be noted that SW tend to age worse than other chapters, the exact opposite of the Angels
Source?
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/13 21:51:37
Subject: Re:Space marines are biologically immortal
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Fixture of Dakka
West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA
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The long and short of it is simply that if Space marines were immortal the Blood Angels wouldn't be noted as being exceedingly long-loved Space Marines.
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"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/13 21:55:24
Subject: Re:Space marines are biologically immortal
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Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought
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AegisGrimm wrote:The long and short of it is simply that if Space marines were immortal the Blood Angels wouldn't be noted as being exceedingly long-loved Space Marines.
But there's no recorded instance of an Astartes dying from old age, so it's a false observation. Just that Blood Angels are fairly lucky and don't get whacked by their third or fourth century of service.
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“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.” |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/13 22:23:45
Subject: Re:Space marines are biologically immortal
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Fixture of Dakka
West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA
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But being immortal is moot if marines that are between 500-1000 years old are seen as uniquely old, save for a bare handful of Black Library occurrences, when the views on most Black Library stuff being anywhere near canon changes daily.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/13 22:24:46
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/13 22:32:41
Subject: Re:Space marines are biologically immortal
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Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought
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AegisGrimm wrote:But being immortal is moot if marines that are between 500-1000 years old are seen as uniquely old, save for a bare handful of Black Library occurrences, when the views on most Black Library stuff being anywhere near canon changes daily.
Except they're seen as old because everyone else has been shot, bisected, impaled, decapitated, etc by that age. They're not old because they've lived that long, they're considered old because they've survived that long.
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“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.” |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/13 22:51:35
Subject: Re:Space marines are biologically immortal
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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AegisGrimm wrote:But being immortal is moot if marines that are between 500-1000 years old are seen as uniquely old, save for a bare handful of Black Library occurrences, when the views on most Black Library stuff being anywhere near canon changes daily.
It gets very contradictory very fast when BA are supposedly long-lived and yet no SM has ever died of old age.
Wyzilla's interpretation seems most plausible.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/14 00:41:30
Subject: Re:Space marines are biologically immortal
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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Wyzilla wrote:
But there's no recorded instance of an Astartes dying from old age, so it's a false observation.
Is there many recorded instances of anyone dying in the old age in the fluff?
Just that Blood Angels are fairly lucky and don't get whacked by their third or fourth century of service.
Except that's not it:
"The Blood Angels are amongst the longest-lived of all of the Space Marine Chapters, their gene-seed granting a vastly increased lifespan on all who possess it. It is not uncommon, therefore, for a Blood Angel to live for a millennium or more, if death in battle or the Red Thirst does not claim him first."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/14 00:50:49
Subject: Re:Space marines are biologically immortal
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Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought
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Crimson wrote: Wyzilla wrote:
But there's no recorded instance of an Astartes dying from old age, so it's a false observation.
Is there many recorded instances of anyone dying in the old age in the fluff?
Just that Blood Angels are fairly lucky and don't get whacked by their third or fourth century of service.
Except that's not it:
"The Blood Angels are amongst the longest-lived of all of the Space Marine Chapters, their gene-seed granting a vastly increased lifespan on all who possess it. It is not uncommon, therefore, for a Blood Angel to live for a millennium or more, if death in battle or the Red Thirst does not claim him first."
Which is not evidence of anything unless there are actual multiple (if not numerous) instances of Astartes dying from old age. Otherwise it's a worthless bit of a fluff that's completely meaningless as there is no actual data behind it.
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“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.” |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/14 01:00:04
Subject: Re:Space marines are biologically immortal
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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Wyzilla wrote:
Which is not evidence of anything unless there are actual multiple (if not numerous) instances of Astartes dying from old age. Otherwise it's a worthless bit of a fluff that's completely meaningless as there is no actual data behind it.
That is just stupid, the quote is perfectly clear and tells us that marines have finite lifespans. There is no other sane way to interpret it. What you'r saying is like claiming that marines do not defecate, because while the fluff tells us that their armours have waste recycling mechanism, it doesn't ever describe them pooping.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/14 01:08:35
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/14 01:16:08
Subject: Re:Space marines are biologically immortal
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Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought
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Crimson wrote: Wyzilla wrote:
Which is not evidence of anything unless there are actual multiple (if not numerous) instances of Astartes dying from old age. Otherwise it's a worthless bit of a fluff that's completely meaningless as there is no actual data behind it.
That is just stupid, the quote is perfectly clear and tells us that marines have finite lifespans. There is no other sane way to interpret it. What you'r saying is like claiming that marines do not defecate, because while the fluff tells us that their armours have waste recycling mechanism, it doesn't ever describe them pooping.
Except it provides no evidence behind it, and we know of no astartes who have died of old age. We have several examples of Astartes living far beyond two thousand years, with one even remaining inert while doing so, yet survived ten thousand years. The Blood Angels codex meanwhile states that Blood Angels are the longest lived Astartes, yet provides no relevant events to back this up with other astartes dying of old age, or Blood Angels dying of old age at a later point. Meanwhile, multiple events point to Astartes at least being ridiculously long-lived beyond the 5k mark, thus making it the only correct stance as it has actual evidence. The Blood Angels codex meanwhile lacks evidence, and to our knowledge no Astartes has ever died of old age, with them even stating so in-universe.
Also, your argument is simply a false equivalence as we know basic biological features are in place. Just that we also have a complete lack of evidence pointing to any astartes having died of old age, and with several of their number hilariously exceeding the lifespan of the Blood Angels. Thus the only conclusion is that the Blood Angels Codex is incorrect, due to a complete lack of any evidence supporting it. We however do know that the maximum astartes lifespan to our knowledge is around the 10k mark, if not possibly greater.
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“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.” |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/14 01:39:02
Subject: Space marines are biologically immortal
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Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces
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Yay! 40k fluff is self-contradictory again!
Time to believe whatever version you want.
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Error 404: Interesting signature not found
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/14 01:40:00
Subject: Space marines are biologically immortal
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Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought
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Iron_Captain wrote:Yay! 40k fluff is self-contradictory again!
Time to believe whatever version you want.
Except one part has absolutely nothing supporting it besides its own word.
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“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.” |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/14 07:01:36
Subject: Re:Space marines are biologically immortal
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Confessor Of Sins
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Wyzilla wrote:But there's no recorded instance of an Astartes dying from old age, so it's a false observation.
There's a whole lot of things lacking from the fluff... 40K is after all "Eternal War", not "dying peacefully in my bed" or "buying food at the mall".
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/14 07:06:33
Subject: Re:Space marines are biologically immortal
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Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought
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Spetulhu wrote: Wyzilla wrote:But there's no recorded instance of an Astartes dying from old age, so it's a false observation.
There's a whole lot of things lacking from the fluff... 40K is after all "Eternal War", not "dying peacefully in my bed" or "buying food at the mall".
That isn't the point. The point is that one side has evidence behind it, the other has absolutely nothing as space marines either die in combat or from a lack of energy.
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“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.” |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/14 09:55:56
Subject: Space marines are biologically immortal
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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There is several clear quotes that attest limited lifespan of the marines. Then there are two cases of marines that have lived peculiarly old in unclear circumstances from BL novels. Because we have several times clearly told that marines are not immortal, those cases must be outliers, achieved either by sus-a-membrane or some other circumstance we are not aware of (or just BL authors contradicting the fluff as they often do.)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/14 11:14:06
Subject: Space marines are biologically immortal
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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Crimson wrote:There is several clear quotes that attest limited lifespan of the marines. Then there are two cases of marines that have lived peculiarly old in unclear circumstances from BL novels. Because we have several times clearly told that marines are not immortal, those cases must be outliers, achieved either by sus-a-membrane or some other circumstance we are not aware of (or just BL authors contradicting the fluff as they often do.)
It is impossible that the mentions of limited Marine lifespans are anything more than speculation when they have never been proven, and there are implications that the contrary is true.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/14 11:14:38
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/14 11:26:52
Subject: Space marines are biologically immortal
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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Ashiraya wrote:
It is impossible that the mentions of limited Marine lifespans are anything more than speculation when they have never been proven, and there are implications that the contrary is true.
I don't think so. It has been stated matter of factly in several places. Furthermore, we know that Marines indeed get weaker when they're really old (and logical conclusion of that is death) and are often retired from active duty to training duties. Now, if Marines indeed were immortal, many of those retired Marines would live forever, as they would no longer be killed in the battle. This is obviously not the case, no such Marines are ever mentioned, Chaplain Cassius is the oldest living Ultramarine, being about 400.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/14 12:01:19
Subject: Space marines are biologically immortal
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Again the dark Angel in pandorax was 10,000 years old, no warp, no stasis, just a dude in his armour sleeping.
The age thing is solid in that book there is no way around it, the better question for it would be...why didn't he starve to death.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/14 12:17:08
Subject: Space marines are biologically immortal
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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If it's from a Black Library book it's more often or not going to end up as being false (it's canon, just not necessarily true in canon) so you can regard anything from it as not true if something else contradicts it.
Blood Angels are noted as unusually long lived for marines. They also have been subject to casualties and massive loss in numbers (Space hulk) so it isn't just to do with them being 'lucky' and surviving in battle more on average.
Case closed.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/05/14 12:20:50
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/14 12:22:53
Subject: Space marines are biologically immortal
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Daba wrote:If it's from a Black Library book it's more often or not going to end up as being false (it's canon, just not necessarily true in canon) so you can regard anything from it as not true if something else contradicts it.
Blood Angels are noted as unusually long lived for marines. They also have been subject to casualties and massive loss in numbers (Space hulk) so it isn't just to do with them being 'lucky' and surviving in battle more on average.
Case closed.
It's part of codex fluff too, black legion attacked pandorax and abbadon left with a powerful psyker, this was the 10k year old fella, so it's as official as you get... For gw anyway
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/14 12:23:24
Subject: Space marines are biologically immortal
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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Formosa wrote:Again the dark Angel in pandorax was 10,000 years old, no warp, no stasis, just a dude in his armour sleeping.
The age thing is solid in that book there is no way around it, the better question for it would be...why didn't he starve to death.
Sounds like sus-an membrane working really well. That has already been accepted as a possible caveat.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/14 12:24:29
Subject: Space marines are biologically immortal
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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Daba wrote:If it's from a Black Library book it's more often or not going to end up as being false (it's canon, just not necessarily true in canon) so you can regard anything from it as not true if something else contradicts it.
Blood Angels are noted as unusually long lived for marines. They also have been subject to casualties and massive loss in numbers (Space hulk) so it isn't just to do with them being 'lucky' and surviving in battle more on average.
Case closed.
That is literally nothing but your own opinion, which for your information is not the same as fact.
Case most certainly not closed.
BL is just as canon as the codices are. This is especially of consideration when BL makes more sense... (That is, BL not contradicting itself by saying no Marines ever die of age and then saying BA die from age later than others...)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/14 12:31:27
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/14 12:30:50
Subject: Space marines are biologically immortal
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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They are as canon, but not necessarily true (as admitted by them) so rulebooks take precedence still as they don't have that caveat.
Is there actually any narrative benefit to them being biologically immortal apart from undermining the Blood Angels, and other long-lived races?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/14 12:33:47
Subject: Space marines are biologically immortal
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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Daba wrote:They are as canon, but not necessarily true (as admitted by them) so rulebooks take precedence still as they don't have that caveat.
Is there actually any narrative benefit to them being biologically immortal apart from undermining the Blood Angels, and other long-lived races?
I am not here to argue narrative benefit as you can write good stories either way. If BA are so reliant on their long-livedness which would be irrelevant anyway since no SM dies of age, then yea...
All 40K lore could represent in-universe biased material. The Black Legion short story could. As could C: BA.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/14 12:41:34
Subject: Space marines are biologically immortal
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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BL is canon, but highly inconsistent. BL books even contradict each other all the time. Abnett for example has admitted winging it if he feels like it. And do I need to mention C.S Goto? This is common with BL authors, and it may sometimes lead to better stories, but makes the books bad background sources. Personally I trust studio fluff any day, they at least seem to have some sort of consistency policy. Automatically Appended Next Post:
Question to those who think marines are immortal: do you actually assume that loyalist chapters have bunch of thousands of years old guys (some of which could even remember the Heresy) hanging around, but they just are never mentioned?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/14 12:48:01
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/14 12:48:23
Subject: Space marines are biologically immortal
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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Crimson wrote:BL is canon, but highly inconsistent. BL books even contradict each other all the time. Abnett for example has admitted winging it if he feels like it. And do I need to mention C.S Goto? This is common with BL authors, and it may sometimes lead to better stories, but makes the books bad background sources. Personally I trust studio fluff any day, they at least seem to have some sort of consistency policy.
Yep. Gotta love this studio fluff.
Like the 6th ed BRB that explicitly states the SM is the foremost defense force of the Imperium. How many of you would agree to that?
Crimson wrote:Question to those who think marines are immortal: do you actually assume that loyalist chapters have bunch of thousands of years old guys (some of which could even remember the Heresy) hanging around, but they just are never mentioned?
No, they died in battle before they could reach that age. Dante is still oldest active Imperial Space Marine, presumably because he is good at staying alive in battle, one way or another.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/14 12:50:00
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/14 13:02:52
Subject: Space marines are biologically immortal
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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Ashiraya wrote:
Yep. Gotta love this studio fluff.
Like the 6th ed BRB that explicitly states the SM is the foremost defense force of the Imperium. How many of you would agree to that?
Well, they certainly are most well known.
No, they died in battle before they could reach that age. Dante is still oldest active Imperial Space Marine, presumably because he is good at staying alive in battle, one way or another.
All of them just died in combat? Even those retired to training or administrative duties? Isn't that, you know, massively unlikely?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/14 13:13:12
Subject: Space marines are biologically immortal
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Fixture of Dakka
Temple Prime
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Daba wrote:If it's from a Black Library book it's more often or not going to end up as being false (it's canon, just not necessarily true in canon) so you can regard anything from it as not true if something else contradicts it.
Blood Angels are noted as unusually long lived for marines. They also have been subject to casualties and massive loss in numbers (Space hulk) so it isn't just to do with them being 'lucky' and surviving in battle more on average.
Case closed.
No one is any more right in 40k than anyone else.
A second grader's fanfic where his self insert crotch kicks Khorne to death is as canonical as anything written by GW.
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Midnightdeathblade wrote:Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/14 13:28:31
Subject: Space marines are biologically immortal
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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To the marines hanging around the chapter for thousands of years.
The trainers of the neophytes still go to combat, they are the scout sergeants, the master of the tenth company still goes to combat too, so they will of course die as normal.
Any marine too damaged will be given the emperor's mercy or be put into a dreadnought, so that accounts for the wounded or infirm marines.
Remeber legs, arms, skulls, basically almost any part of the body (not head, with the exception to failsafe devices in the head to keep it alive after decapitation) that gets cut off can be replaced with bionics, internal organs can be vat grown (as shown in several books) or cultivated from failed iniates that have died (assumption on my behalf).
But still marines will die in spite of all this.
10k dark Angel: I agree it's possible the sus an could possibly have helped, but not with food, this dude must have had to eat every few weeks at least (possibly longer as a space marine) that would still make him several thousand years older than the oldest living marines currently.
Now I don't think marines are immortal, just incredibly long lived to be immortal by human standards.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/14 13:32:29
Subject: Space marines are biologically immortal
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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Marine in sus-an sleep doesn't need to eat.
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